July 15, 2021 • 39 mins
Katie Lowes is joined by Dr. Dan Siegel, recognized neuropsychiatrist and author of some of Katie’s favorite parenting books, including No-Drama Discipline and The Whole-Brain Child. Dr. Siegel goes in depth about how parents can help their children develop emotional and social intelligence.
The Mindsight Institute co-founder explains what his term “mindsight” means, and why it matters. He also examines the importance of children understanding their feelings, and provides tips for how parents can encourage healthy responses to adversity.
Plus, can being stern be damaging to our children’s mental health? Dr. Seigel offers his insight.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:02):
Welcome to Katie's Crib, a production of Shonda Land Audio
in partnership with I Heart Radio. There is no such
thing as perfect parenting. There just isn't the reason. Over
these years, you know, when I've written parenting books, I
always include the ways I've messed up as a parent.
Is because it's always room to reconnect after a rupture,
(00:23):
you know, to make a repair. Hi, everybody, and welcome
back to Katie's Crib. Today's guest is truly is such
a gift that we got him to come home to
the podcast. He has written two of my favorite most
useful books on my bedside table. It's Dr Dan Siegel.
(00:47):
He wrote No Drama, Discipline and The Whole Brain Child,
and I use them both constantly. If you've never heard
of them, don't walk, run to get them. I learned
so much. We talk a lot about the power of
showing up. We talk about development trauma and helpful mindfulness
exercises that we can start with our young children now
(01:08):
so that they can continue to practice such techniques into adulthood.
Dr Siegel is a clinical professor of psychiatry at the
u c l A School of Medicine and the founding
co director of the Mindful Awareness Research Center at u
c l A. He's also the executive director of the
Mind Site Institute, and the institute focuses on such topics
as the development of mind site empathy, and integration of
(01:29):
families and communities. Dr Siegel is published for both professional
and general audiences, and his work includes five New York
Times bestsellers, including Aware, The Science and Practice of Presence,
mind A Journey to the Heart of Being Human, and
two of his best sellers, The Whole Brainchild and No
Drama Discipline, were co authored with Dr Tina Payne Bryson.
(01:50):
Thank you so much, Dr Siegel for making time and
for coming onto Katie's crib. I just want to tell
you I'm such a huge fan. I have read your books.
I am a parent of two children, and I'm trying
to implement lots of your things. I've watched Google talks,
and I've listened to you on Chelsea Handler's podcast. Oh great. First,
(02:16):
for those listening who may not know you, just tell
us a little bit about how you come to your
parenting books through science and through interdisciplinary science and Katie Speak.
It's like lots of different sciences coming together, right Yeah,
what I've been trying to do, being trained both as
a physician and a scientist, in becoming an educator and
(02:40):
also you know, being a therapist, wanting to see if
there was a way to combine all the different disciplines
of science into one framework. So in my professional academic writing,
you know, we have a whole series of books that
I edit that other people write in this approach. So
we have over seventy five textbooks for esstionals, and then
(03:01):
I also write, you know, my own books a little
bit in that series, but also for the general public,
including parenting. That's called interpersonal neurobiology, which is a fancy
term just meaning what if you went inside for the personal?
What if you went in our relationship with the inters
that's the interpersonal, And what if you look not just
(03:21):
at the brain, but the whole way in which all
the different systems were part of the entire nervous system
and the whole body, but then the systems of relationships
we have with humanity and with nature. If you tried
to understand those systems from a scientific point of view,
how would that influence, for example, the way you approach
parenting or how you would approach psychotherapy, or you know,
(03:44):
how you might even approach the way we deal with
the environment or racism, or how we're approaching the pandemics
that we have. So it's a really exciting moment to
try to bring the research findings of science to practical application. Yes,
it's sort of like instead of going to one doctor
for one specific thing, what's great about you are sort
(04:08):
of bringing lots of different things together. Mindfulness, psychotherapy, science,
all of these things, like you were saying, to help
us be better parents, to raise a whole integrated brain child. Exactly,
well said I put things in real Katie's crib terms. Now, um,
(04:33):
why is it important to care about your child's brain
and development as a toddler? And also for me, is
my three and a half year old already screwed? Like like,
oh god, I mean, are these the most sometimes I
hear these are the most important years. If you haven't
really done it before five or seven year you can
(04:55):
fill in the blanks talk to me about the toddler brain. Right. Well,
first of all, thanks with the question. And you know,
I think for everyone listening, we can all take a
deep breath and say there is no such thing as
perfect parenting. There just isn't the reason. Over these years,
you know, when I've written parenting books, I always include
(05:17):
the ways I've messed up as a parent is because
it's always room to reconnect after a rupture, you know,
to make a repair. And in fact, not that you
should try to make ruptures in your connection with your kid,
but they happen inevitably even if you're you know, expert
in this area or write books in this area or whatever.
And when my kids got old enough to read and
(05:39):
reflect them what I was doing, and I asked their
permission and to make sure what I was writing was accurate.
They both read this piece that I've written about some
conflict the three of us had, and they said, well, listen,
it's accurate. But what's wrong with you that you want
to let the world know what a jerk you can be? Great,
what a relief? Yeah. So I said, okay, I'm putting
(06:00):
it in there. They go, why would you do that?
I said, I'm doing that because the story that you're
saying is accurate is really about how we reconnected after
I messed up, and people need to know that instead
of aiming for something that's called perfection or just getting
right you have a direction you aim for, so you're
not just lost, and you can be inspired by science
(06:23):
but not getting imprisoned by science. So even the word attachment,
you know, I'm an attachment researcher. I'm trained through the
National Instudentental Health blah blah blah to study attachment. So
what the research on attachment shows is that, first of all,
human beings can have more than one attachment figure. But
(06:43):
what that means is kids can have different attachment figures.
That's number one. Number two. It also shows that you're
asking about, you know, is your three and a half
year old messed up? You know? Is that these attachment
experiences can be healed if there's real, big ruptures in
them anytime in the lifespan. Earlier is better than later,
(07:03):
but doing it is better than not doing it. Yeah,
when you talk about attachment secure versus insecure, I just
want to make sure people understand what attachment what that means. Yeah,
So there is a formal approach to parent you called
attachment parenting that, as far as I can tell, has
nothing to do with attachment research. So I'm not talking
(07:23):
about attachment parenting. So the word attachment can be used
however you feel like using it. No one's got like
an ownership of it. But in the field of psychology
that studies child development, there's a branch of that called
attachment theory and research. That's just what they used for
their academic studies. That's what I'm trained in, and what
(07:43):
we do is we study of parents and other caregivers
and how they interact with children. One of my colleagues
has been doing this in a study over forty five
years in length, where they study the families before the
child was born, so during a pregnancy, and now those
kids are in their mid forties. In a nutshell, what
(08:04):
we've learned from that attachment research is that there are
these patterns in which we tend to fall, which include,
in the broadest categories, what's called secure attachment, which leads
to resilience in a child. And that's in the United States,
somewhere between fifty five and six kids with their primary
(08:25):
caregiver have a secure attachment's great news, But for close
to a third to a half, you know, we have
non secure attachment with their primary caregiver, which is what
the research studies. Because you have many a number of
attachment figures when you look at the non secure forms,
there are three kinds. One is avoidant, which is about
of population, where basically it was emotional distance, and the
(08:48):
kid learns how to be prematurely autonomous, right, and that
has all sorts of consequences in that person's adulthood and
their romantic relationships. And then the second grouping, which is
about fifth team person of the population, is ambivalent attachment,
where they got mixed messages and so instead of the
disconnection of the avoidantly attached kid with the primary caregiver,
(09:10):
this one is kind of confused, like who are you?
Who am I? I'm not sure do you love me enough?
Maybe you do, maybe you don't write, and the boundaries
were sometimes not clear, sometimes they were true to intruded upon.
And then overlapping these three secure and the two forms
of non secure is the most concerning form disorganized attachment.
And these kids have the worst outcome, where you are
(09:33):
terrified of your caregiver, and so obviously this is an
abuse and neglect, but even in more subtle forms where
you may not be removed from the care of your parents,
but here you're still being terrified of the caregiver in
various ways. And those kids develop what's called dissociation, so
they have a fragmentation of their mind. Now it's very healable,
it's very disturbing of their ability to regulate their own
(09:55):
emotions or to engage in mutually rewarding relationships with others.
So I've worked with, you know, adults who bring their
obviously older parents in talk about a rupture a long
time ago or something like that. That's right, and some
of the most amazing healing has happened, you know, when
the parents are in their sixties or seventies and they
(10:16):
come in and the child is in her thirties or forties,
and then we do the work, and it's amazing that
the healing, the reconnecting, the becoming whole is what healing needs,
you know, really requires a kind of kindness and vulnerability
that allow to heal from ruptures. It doesn't always happen.
Not all parents are up for that. So sometimes you
(10:39):
as an individual need to make sense of your own life.
And Mary Hartzel, my daughter's preschool director, and I wrote
a book called Parenting from the Inside Out. Yeah you did,
and and we can talk about that. But that inside
out approach basically says you're going to heal yourself, even
if your parents don't cooperate, or even if they're not
still alive. So, if you've had an avoidant back ground,
(11:00):
you can move towards security. If you've had an ambivalent background,
you can move towards security. And if you've had a
disorganized one, you can move towards these various forms of
non secure attachment, but even security. So the great news
is that if you're listening, you can change. And you know,
the mindset book I wrote, you know, or parenting remainside
(11:21):
out give you the pathways to change. Can you give
me an example of a big rupture versus a little rupture,
just so I have like a sort of framework. A
rupture would be obviously like a divorce or like moving
out of parents. I mean huge things, right, Yeah, So
let's just look at the science of that. There is
a term called developmental trauma that usually means abuse of
(11:46):
some sort or neglect. And then neglect can be severe
emotional neglect or severe physical neglect. And obviously the abuse
can run the range of sexual abuse, physical abuse, emotional abuse,
where there's something very negative that's present rather than the
absence of something positive that's needed. And neglect and abuse,
(12:07):
these forms of developmental trauma. There's basically the experience of
a child being terrified of something being created by the
attachment figure, which means the parent usually, but it can
be other attachment figures. Now you know feel that I'm
a part of attachment. Research shows is that when a
child feels terrified of the attachment figure, it creates a
(12:32):
kind of bind inside their own brain, a double thing
going on. One thing is that the deepest part of
the brain says, oh my gosh, I'm being terrified. Let
me get away from the terror. But another part of
my brain, a little bit higher up in the brain says,
I'm a mammal, and when I'm in a state of terror,
where I go is to my attachment figure to be protected,
(12:55):
because that's one of the main things attachment is all about,
is safety. So here's the difficult situation. It's called fear
without solution. It's a biological paradox. If the attachment figure
is causing the state of terror, then one part of
the brain says, get away from that source of terror.
The other part says, go towards the attachment figure, who
(13:17):
is the source of terror. So your mind fragments. That's
the most extreme. Now it doesn't have to be abused
and neglect, so this is where people should know about it.
It can be an example of flipping your lid as
a parent where you're not abusive in terms of neglect
or physical abuse. It's not developmental trauma, but it is
still terrifying to your kid. So this is now a
(13:40):
little step down. And yet it can be very toxic
to a child, even if you don't want to use
the word trauma, and it could fall into the category
of adverse childhood experiences, which is what you're talking about.
In my household, I have a very, very dynamic three
and a half year old toddler boy who really enjoys
(14:04):
if you tell him to do something, he's not going
to do it, and enjoys that. It's like wild and
it's perfect for me, because good lord, we couldn't be
more opposite. So I'm a hippie in my sort of
parenting style. And it was quick to realize that worked
for the first two two and a half years with
my son and now it really doesn't. Anyway. My husband
(14:25):
has really more of the disciplinary and if you would
go with a good cop, bad cops situation. Now when
you use the word disciplinary, and what do you mean,
Like he was better at following through, Like we have
a long leash, but if it's something where someone's going
to get hurt, or we have a new born at
three and a half month old, and one time he
stepped on her head on purpose and it was like, okay,
(14:45):
and now you're going to your room, and you have
to think about what you've done. And violence is never tolerated,
and we don't touch our friends bodies this way and
our family members and blah blah blah. My husband is
better at that than me in just like you're going
your room right now. I'm so angry at you. This
is unacceptable. And guess what hanukas canceled? Christmas is canceled,
(15:08):
dessert is canceled, TV is canceled. And then he goes
to his room and it was very upsetting and he
was very sad and it was the most trouble he's
ever got in and rightfully so, he's he literally looked
me in the eye and stomped on his newborn sister's head.
But my son is more afraid of my husband than
he is me, Like, is this a rupture because Adams
(15:29):
like I don't want to be the bad cop all
the time. But our son is not someone that listens
easily with being told what to do. And I don't
know if it's the age, I don't know, if it's
his spirit. I have no idea. I've only met him
three and a half years ago. This podcast for everyone
has just literally become my session with my son. You're welcome, everyone,
don't worry. We'll get back on topic in one. Here's
(15:52):
the thing everyone listening should just take a deep breath
and reflect that every kid is different. They have, you know,
something called it temperament, and that's kind of their inborn
proclivities that are in the eight There are not learned
and they're slightly modifiable, but not that much. Temperament is
very real. Some of it is genetically related, but in
(16:12):
any event, it's inn eight, not learned. Right. So the
next thing that we're talking about is attachment. You know,
how do the relationships you have with your caregivers, you know,
within the family setting, influence how you work through your
way of being in the world to develop what's simply
called personality. When I think about my two kids, you know,
they had very different temperaments. So if you thought you
(16:34):
were doing a strategy that worked for the older one
and then tried it on the younger one who temper
was totally different, it just wouldn't work. So you can
have a broad approach to attachment, like you want to
develop secure attachment, but then there are absolutely modifications one
needs to make depending on the temperament of the kid.
So let's talk about Adams, you know, being stern talking
(16:55):
about the brain a little bit. As the brain is developing,
let's say from nine to twelve months, which is the
time when a kid begins to crawl, um, the brain
of that child has got to learn to develop these
basically like a break, you know, to to to shut
down behavior. And so what you see then in this
time period is parents start saying no, no, no, no,
(17:18):
no a lot. The way you say no is what's important, right,
So if you say no, no, no, no, no no,
and nothing happens, the kids inhibitory circuits are not going
to develop, right, and so they're just gonna push you
and push you and push you until you just you
think you're gonna lose your mind. You're using the word
stern for Adam, So be able to be clear about it.
(17:39):
I said, no, you know, like this, You know, it
may make your kid frustrated, It may make them really
piste off, but it's not terrifying them. Now. Inhibiting that
may take a stern boundary that if you can't create it,
Adam can create it. Oh no, I've gotten good. It's
(17:59):
a learning curve. But I'm here. Yeah, okay. Good. So,
because when there's dangerous things going on like that that
could be harmful, sometimes you have to say no, you know,
and but there's no such thing as perfect parenting. Ruptures
happen a kid. Their job is to push against the boundaries,
and then, depending on your own childhood and your own temperament,
you know you're gonna cave in in various ways. Here's
(18:21):
an example where my kids were older than your son
is at that time. But I had a nine at
the time, my daughter and then our son was fourteen,
and they went to the movies. Right. I took my
daughter to a movie, and my son wanted to go
to a movie with his friends. We picked up her
brother and we were walking by this crepe store near
where we live, and my son said, he's hungry. I said,
(18:43):
you want to creepe, and he said, yeah, I love creep.
And then I asked his sister, do you want to crepe?
She goes, I'm not hungry. I said fine, you know,
so we went in. He got a creep and then
she said to him, can I have a taste of
your crepe? He goes now and he's eating and needing
it and smells are coming from the scrape. She can,
I have a little bit. He goes, okay, okay, get
and he cuts her off that inche that's like really
(19:05):
burnt and tasteless, and so hands it to her on
his fork. She goes, that's too small. Oh hilarious, and
he goes forget it. And I'm just fuming inside, like
I've done horrible job teaching him to be a sharer
and he's selfish and all stuff. We get in the car,
you know, and I slammed the door shut, and he goes,
(19:25):
what's wrong with you? What's wrong? I said, well, you
didn't share the crape and he goes, yeah, because she
didn't want one, and I was hungry. I said, well,
what if this is one of those friends you know
then you went to the movies with him? He goes,
I'd give them half my crape. So I go, well,
why wouldn't you give your sister one? He goes, she's
not my friend. Yeah, and then I exploded. Luckily my
(19:46):
wife was home and she intervenes. When we get we
all have three of us get home, and then my
system is starting just slowly calm down. And so his
sister and I go for rollerblading out on the street
and she says to me, she goes, dead, what was
going on? Why why did you get so angry? I said, oh,
(20:08):
you know, because he didn't share the crepe with you.
She goes, I can handle myself. What was happening? I said, oh,
I guess if I thought about it. You know, I'm
a younger child, just like you're the younger sibling, because
my brother was really mean to me, and if your
brother was ever mean to you, I was never gonna
let that happen to if I ever had kids. And
so I was trying to guess work through the way.
(20:28):
My parents never protected me, so I was trying to
protect you. And since she looks at me, she goes,
this is your own garbage. She goes, why don't you
work this out on your own time? And that's parenting
to talk about this crapes of wrath business. That was
the rupture and then figuring it out. But the repair
happened when she and I got back from the rollerblading thing.
(20:49):
We had a family meeting and and I apologized to
my son for having you know, flipped my lid, for
just asserting his right to eat his crape by himself.
And I was able to talk about, you know, to
him about what the experience was like and then with it.
Since his mother didn't watch all this, I asked him
(21:11):
if he wanted to, you know, share what the experience
was like, and then he imitated me, and he did
a really good job of how ridiculous I was, so
so inside of me. I had to be ready in
terms of the repair process. And we're the older, more experienced, wiser,
hopefully ones than our kids. So it's our responsibility to
(21:32):
make the repair right. That's so important. Yeah, we need
to understand that these are vulnerable places in us. So
whatever issues I have with my brother being you know,
protected by my parents and me not being protected and
all these kind of stuff, that's not for me to
work out with my kids, but it's to to work
it out with them that I did something pretty scary
(21:53):
cur saying slamming the slamming the door. It was terrible,
I mean, and so I had to own that and
apologize for that instead of saying, yeah, but you made
me do it because you wouldn't share. And I don't
like selfish kids. You know, I could, you could do that,
you could go that route, sure, but that's really the
opposite of repair. I think I was watching maybe it
(22:24):
was your Google talk, but so much about we're talking
about these repairs and ruptures. If you do a lot
of the repairing of your own life, it's so helpful
to you as a parent, because a lot of times
nothing shows you your weaknesses more. And I sit here
and I see my other friends kids who listen when
(22:45):
they're asked once. They're not boundary pushers. That's not what
they Their kids are doing something else, you know what
I mean. Like I was just at a swim class.
My son's learning to swim, and my son has gotten
in really big fat rubble every swim class because he's
splashing all the other kids in the face and making
them cry. Okay, and the kid who's crying is afraid
(23:09):
of the water. And my son senses that he's afraid
of the water, and so he's instigating and splashing and
things like that. I'm the mom freaking out that my
kid is making other kids cry. But my kid is
like animal beast in the water, loves nothing more than
diving off the side. And today's the graduation from swim class,
and he's showing off everybody's such a good swimmer. The
mom of the shy boy who is crying is a really,
(23:31):
really tough mom, and she's having such a hard time
that her son is struggling in the water. And I'm
looking at each other and I'm like, oh my god, Like, really,
in another life, should we we We would switch and
we would both be like not having on this journey
learning whatever the hell it is that we're learning. Yeah, well,
(23:52):
they definitely teach us. You know. There's something called reflective dialogues,
which is a dialogue as a conversation. Reflection means to
the inward. And there are three kinds of maps that
the brain is able to make. It's called a mind
site or seeing the mind mindset map of oneself, a
mind site map of someone else, so it's a U map,
(24:12):
so it's a me map, you map, and a WE map.
So ideally for your son, whether it's going to happen
soon or later, if you don't mind me giving you
reflections on this, you know, he needs to develop the
mind site abilities to be able to make a map
of himself. I really feel like splashing these kids because
I'm so good and I want to show my strength,
(24:34):
and then he does not do it. So a mind
site map would say, I've got the urge, but I'm
not going to allow the impulse to turn into action.
And you know some people call that self control and
and that's going to be something, Yeah, he needs to learn,
but it's gonna require awareness. That's number one. A U
map would be where he makes a map of that
kid who shy and he realizes this kid is already
(24:57):
having a hard time with water, so for me to
splash him in the face is really mean. And I
don't want to be a mean person, or if I
do want to be a mean person, if I like
hurting people, I need some help. And then there's what's
called we map, right like I want to be a
part of this class where I'm a welcome member of
(25:19):
this group, and that's a we map. Right, So we
learned these mind side maps in our homes. But you
and Adam, you can sit down with your kids. I
mean you're three month was a little young for this.
But where you start talking about Okay, let's talk about today.
Let's talk about, you know, swim class being over and
you splashing kids in the face. I'm not mad. You
(25:42):
say it's his mom um, but I'm I want to
talk about what you think that kids experience was to
be scared of the water. You know that, and then
you're splashing him in the face. This is so helpful.
I want to sit and have this like lovely conversation
with him and not put too much pressure on it exactly.
And when you're feeling really centered and calm and can be,
(26:04):
you know, open to whatever it is, and you can remember, Katie,
that you can have this coal state curious, open, accepting
and loving c O a L. It's just something to remember.
That's one of the best definitions of mindful. So when
you mindfully have this conversation with him, Katie, you bring curiosity.
I'm really curious about it. You're open to whatever he says. Well,
I wanted him to feel bad. You don't get angry
(26:26):
about that. You accept that's what he said, and you
bring a loving stance and then you're going to explore it. Right.
So when we bring a coal kind of presence to
our interactions as parents, what's great about that is that
you know you come from a place that you're being
a role model for him too of how he can
be that way also in life. I love coal And
(26:48):
you don't think of three and a half year old
you think it's this is like great to be starting this.
Oh my god, yes, okay, God, Actually this is a
great example. There's a research study which looked at death kids, right,
and they were around your son's age three and a
half four, and they divided them into two groups. One
group had these mind site abilities where they knew about
(27:10):
emotions and their impact on us. They knew about how
memory works. These are three and a half year olds,
four year old, so they had these mind site skills, right.
The other half of this group of deaf kids didn't
have those skills of insight into one's own inner life
or the inner life of others. That's what mind site means, right.
So then they studied these and they found that one
(27:32):
of the groups that had the mind side abilities versus
the ones that didn't have the mindset abilities divided up
really neatly into one had parents who were deaf at
birth and the other had hearing parents who then found
themselves with a deaf kid. Oh my god, Now which
group do you think is which? It turns out that
(27:53):
the deaf kids who were born to parents who were
deaf who knew how to do American sign language, they
had perfectly intact development of mind site abilities, whereas the
ones who are deaf who had parents who could barely
communicate with them. So, like, give you an example, if
a kid fell down, if that parent was a deaf
parent who knew how to sign in a sophisticated way,
(28:15):
they could have a reflective dialogue using sign language and
say that must have been so scary for you to
have your triesycle hit the stone. I'm so sorry that
was so scary. Here, come here and let me pick
you up and help you, whereas the other one just says,
get up. So parents who don't do reflective dialogues have
kids who just are external looking. They don't look inward,
(28:36):
either in their own life or the life of others.
So what you want to do, especially with someone with
a temperament like your kids temperament is you want to
give them mind site skills, the ability basically to make
a map of the mind inside myself. If I'm your son,
so I know what am I feeling, what am I thinking?
Where's my attention going, what's my intention? How do I
(28:57):
get a sense of what my impulse is from my behavior?
That's all called let's just put under the word insight.
And amazingly, we all have feelings and thoughts and impulses,
but not everybody is insight, right, So it's a way
of like making a map of my own interiority. Right.
We do a lot of this, and I actually, you
know I have I'm having such memories in this conversation
of the times that I got in trouble whatever that's
(29:20):
the word you want to use, growing up in my
household and got sent to my room to think about
what I had done. And they always ended with my
dad sitting at the edge of my bed and talking
about what had happened and how I feel and he
would always end up crying. My dad's super emotional dude,
like he would always end up crying and being like,
(29:40):
you know, I love you. And it's okay, and we
let's just talk, you know, and we always just have
like a nice talk about what it was that had happened.
And I'm just looking back on that and being like
my parents were really good about that. Everybody needs these
mind sight skills. It sounds like your parents gave you.
That's exactly what it is. So that's the site piece.
The second is, you know, empathy, So it's your own
(30:03):
self awareness, the ability to put yourself in someone else's shoes,
and then the ability for the WE map, which is
and where does this fall in society, in in the world,
in the world right And you could call that compassion
if you wanter kindness where you say there's a relationality
to me and that person. And so the way I'm
going to act in terms of the we is to
(30:26):
bring kindness into the world. And the WE map is
really saying, Okay, I'm a part of something larger than
just my body. I'm a part relationship with people in
the planet. So that would include you know, how you
treat nature, how you treat pets, how you treat the
trees around you. So this is what mindset involves. And
the great news about doing it understanding this as a
(30:47):
parent is you can have kind of a mind site
strategy where you say, my kids three and a half. Now, really,
what I made me for is when he's eighteen and
he's getting ready to launch, so I don't have to
do everything when he's three and a half. Ah, so huge.
(31:12):
I'm all about when your child has done something and
making sure you're coming from a stern, boundary but regulated place,
like I think if you're flipping your fucking lid, I
personally remove myself from the situation, let's say, and for
like five ten minutes until I've like feel like I'm
not coming at it from like a complete like my past,
(31:34):
like you had said, and then when I come at
it from a regulated place. We've been trying lots of
things like you have to go to your room. We're
going to take away this toy because you used it
to hit the dog or whatever it is. I'm basically
just trying them all because I'm trying. I'm learning as
I go. What are any suggestions in the discipline lanes?
(31:55):
So the word discipline, it's important remember as a parent
means to teach, does mean to punish. You know, when
Tina and I wrote the book No Drama Discipline. Our
main goal is to tell parents, you know, we miss
interpreted the word discipline to be I need to punish, right,
So that's the first thing to say, so that you
can say, well, okay, what am I trying to teach
my child? Well, you're trying to teach him the skills
(32:17):
of self regulation, to put it really simply, and you
know this wonderful research from Adele Diamond that shows that,
you know, self regulation is really gonna be learned like
between three and nine, you know, and the parts of
the brain that helped curb impulses will be developed now.
So he's just at the beginning of this. So you say, okay, well,
(32:38):
then I've got a good you know, six years to
be working on this project. Great, oh god, you know
this is the moment where these mind site skills you
will teach of self awareness and empathy and the WE
map will help him see, I have feelings and I
(33:00):
have an impulse. And just because I have an impulse
like to splash someone, you know, or hit the dog
with the toys, step on my sister with my foot,
I can actually be so empowered as even though the
impulse is there the action does not happen. It's not
that you always say yes hardly, It's that you identify
(33:22):
the feeling of a child and once you connect like that,
you can redirect their behavior. You know. I was like,
you really feel the need to hit? Okay, you can.
You're allowed to hit the couch, you're allowed to hit
the floor, but you can never hit a person, and
you can never hit an animal. Period. And now, after
a while of that not working good year, it got
(33:44):
to the point where I was like, if you hit
someone one more time, you don't get this, you know,
and that's when it works. Or if you hit one
more time, you you have to We're going to have
to start talking about consequences of things. And that worked, right,
And every kid is different. Is there ever a time
where throwing your kid in the room and closing the
door is like allows throwing your kid in the room
(34:05):
and closing the door. I wouldn't use the phrase throwing
your kid in the room. Yeah, throw is not good
escorting them, listen. Timeouts are a very interesting issue. The
way they've been researched shows that they work, but they're
never done in anger. They're always done where the child
(34:26):
is told before an incident has happened. If something happens
that is a problem in how behavior is going. I'm
going to give you what I'm going to call the
time out, and what that means is you're gonna take
five minutes and you are going to have a break
from being interacting with the family. And then as you
do that, I want you to think about what's going on.
(34:47):
Then in five minutes you can come back with the family.
What parents tend to do in real life, unlike what
the researchers very appropriately suggested, parents have taken that term
time out, and they mean they're going to punish them
by removing them from social connection, sometimes for half an
hour an hour. There is a place for timeouts done
the way research is suggesting it, but I don't think
(35:09):
there's a place for using timeouts as a punishment. It's
an opportunity to inspire to motivate, sure, but not to
vanish for an hour in social isolation. That is really
not what they were ever intended for by the researchers.
So if you want to follow the research protocol, go
for it, but don't use that as a way to
(35:32):
shirk your parenting responsibilities of teaching skills just because you're
fed up and now you're gonna, as you say, throw
your kid in the room. No, that's not okay, is
what I would say. You know, in my household, the
biggest boundary I can set with my son is taking
away his most favorite thing that he never gets, which
is the television. And that's how he knows it is
(35:54):
at the fan. And you know what else works on
my son. This is so lame. I cannot believe I
have turned into this mother. I'm the one too three mom.
And I think it's because it gives him a second
to control that impulse, if that makes sense. It gives
him a minute. Is that bad? No? I mean, you
know it's beautiful about that, Katie, is that you are
(36:16):
showing him that he can become aware that it's his
decision that he can feel. Oh, I can hit the
dog again. But you know, I really love television, So
I am choosing to actually not do it. And he's
learning from that way you're doing it that he actually
has an option that is in his control. I try
to always given options because this kid is a negotiating,
(36:40):
autonomous being. Yeah, you're teaching him the skill of self regulation,
you know, which is important to do, and this is
this is gonna be over the next few years. You
want to take a deep breath and just realize it
doesn't mean he's gonna wait till then, but you have
this time. Especially in the next couple of years, his
(37:01):
inhibitory circuits from the higher part of his brain to
the lower part of his brain are developing. And the
way you come to say no in a way that
invites him to say, oh, I see, I have an
impulse I'm not going to act on it is actually
going to grow those inhibitory fibers from the higher parts
to the lower parts of his brain. And that's what
(37:22):
self regulations depended on. And that's the skill you're going
to give to him. The other thing I do is
how I got it. I was like, if you hit
one person at this party, we're leaving, so just know that,
and he did and I then I the funked up
part is that I have to follow through because it's
like he did it, and I was like, you hit
him in the face with a stick. So we're going
(37:43):
to leave the party and he's screaming, I don't want
to go, I don't want to go, and I'm like,
I know you don't want to leave, but I told
you that if you hit someone, we have to leave
the party good and you follow through with it and
have the next party go much better. He didn't do it,
there you go, but then he'll forget and it could
happen again. And that's a great example of teaching them
the skills of self regulation. This is exhausting. Thank you
(38:09):
so much. I can't like guys. Just google Dr Dan SEAgel,
get all the books. I'll have to have you on
again because we're moms and we can't listen to podcasts
that are more than an hour. We don't have time
for that. But this is um been so so so helpful.
Thank you so much for being on Katie's Krim. You're welcome.
Thank you, Katie. Can you believe this is the kid
(38:32):
that God she gave me. It's perfect. It's great for you, Yes, exactly.
What an opportunity to learn. Thank you guys so much
for listening to this week's episode. I hope you've got
a lot out of it. I know I did. I
want to hear from you guys. What are topics you
want to discuss guests that you want to have on
(38:53):
I'm always open to hearing your thoughts. You can email
me at Katie's Crib at Shonda land dot com. Katie's
Crib is a production of Shonda Land Audio in partnership
with I Heart Radio. For more podcasts from Shondaland Audio,
visit the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you
listen to your favorite shows. You until you try me
(39:27):
need
Welcome to Katie's Crib, a production of Shonda Land Audio
in partnership with I Heart Radio. There is no such
thing as perfect parenting. There just isn't the reason. Over
these years, you know, when I've written parenting books, I
always include the ways I've messed up as a parent.
Is because it's always room to reconnect after a rupture,
(00:23):
you know, to make a repair. Hi, everybody, and welcome
back to Katie's Crib. Today's guest is truly is such
a gift that we got him to come home to
the podcast. He has written two of my favorite most
useful books on my bedside table. It's Dr Dan Siegel.
(00:47):
He wrote No Drama, Discipline and The Whole Brain Child,
and I use them both constantly. If you've never heard
of them, don't walk, run to get them. I learned
so much. We talk a lot about the power of
showing up. We talk about development trauma and helpful mindfulness
exercises that we can start with our young children now
(01:08):
so that they can continue to practice such techniques into adulthood.
Dr Siegel is a clinical professor of psychiatry at the
u c l A School of Medicine and the founding
co director of the Mindful Awareness Research Center at u
c l A. He's also the executive director of the
Mind Site Institute, and the institute focuses on such topics
as the development of mind site empathy, and integration of
(01:29):
families and communities. Dr Siegel is published for both professional
and general audiences, and his work includes five New York
Times bestsellers, including Aware, The Science and Practice of Presence,
mind A Journey to the Heart of Being Human, and
two of his best sellers, The Whole Brainchild and No
Drama Discipline, were co authored with Dr Tina Payne Bryson.
(01:50):
Thank you so much, Dr Siegel for making time and
for coming onto Katie's crib. I just want to tell
you I'm such a huge fan. I have read your books.
I am a parent of two children, and I'm trying
to implement lots of your things. I've watched Google talks,
and I've listened to you on Chelsea Handler's podcast. Oh great. First,
(02:16):
for those listening who may not know you, just tell
us a little bit about how you come to your
parenting books through science and through interdisciplinary science and Katie Speak.
It's like lots of different sciences coming together, right Yeah,
what I've been trying to do, being trained both as
a physician and a scientist, in becoming an educator and
(02:40):
also you know, being a therapist, wanting to see if
there was a way to combine all the different disciplines
of science into one framework. So in my professional academic writing,
you know, we have a whole series of books that
I edit that other people write in this approach. So
we have over seventy five textbooks for esstionals, and then
(03:01):
I also write, you know, my own books a little
bit in that series, but also for the general public,
including parenting. That's called interpersonal neurobiology, which is a fancy
term just meaning what if you went inside for the personal?
What if you went in our relationship with the inters
that's the interpersonal, And what if you look not just
(03:21):
at the brain, but the whole way in which all
the different systems were part of the entire nervous system
and the whole body, but then the systems of relationships
we have with humanity and with nature. If you tried
to understand those systems from a scientific point of view,
how would that influence, for example, the way you approach
parenting or how you would approach psychotherapy, or you know,
(03:44):
how you might even approach the way we deal with
the environment or racism, or how we're approaching the pandemics
that we have. So it's a really exciting moment to
try to bring the research findings of science to practical application. Yes,
it's sort of like instead of going to one doctor
for one specific thing, what's great about you are sort
(04:08):
of bringing lots of different things together. Mindfulness, psychotherapy, science,
all of these things, like you were saying, to help
us be better parents, to raise a whole integrated brain child. Exactly,
well said I put things in real Katie's crib terms. Now, um,
(04:33):
why is it important to care about your child's brain
and development as a toddler? And also for me, is
my three and a half year old already screwed? Like like,
oh god, I mean, are these the most sometimes I
hear these are the most important years. If you haven't
really done it before five or seven year you can
(04:55):
fill in the blanks talk to me about the toddler brain. Right. Well,
first of all, thanks with the question. And you know,
I think for everyone listening, we can all take a
deep breath and say there is no such thing as
perfect parenting. There just isn't the reason. Over these years,
you know, when I've written parenting books, I always include
(05:17):
the ways I've messed up as a parent is because
it's always room to reconnect after a rupture, you know,
to make a repair. And in fact, not that you
should try to make ruptures in your connection with your kid,
but they happen inevitably even if you're you know, expert
in this area or write books in this area or whatever.
And when my kids got old enough to read and
(05:39):
reflect them what I was doing, and I asked their
permission and to make sure what I was writing was accurate.
They both read this piece that I've written about some
conflict the three of us had, and they said, well, listen,
it's accurate. But what's wrong with you that you want
to let the world know what a jerk you can be? Great,
what a relief? Yeah. So I said, okay, I'm putting
(06:00):
it in there. They go, why would you do that?
I said, I'm doing that because the story that you're
saying is accurate is really about how we reconnected after
I messed up, and people need to know that instead
of aiming for something that's called perfection or just getting
right you have a direction you aim for, so you're
not just lost, and you can be inspired by science
(06:23):
but not getting imprisoned by science. So even the word attachment,
you know, I'm an attachment researcher. I'm trained through the
National Instudentental Health blah blah blah to study attachment. So
what the research on attachment shows is that, first of all,
human beings can have more than one attachment figure. But
(06:43):
what that means is kids can have different attachment figures.
That's number one. Number two. It also shows that you're
asking about, you know, is your three and a half
year old messed up? You know? Is that these attachment
experiences can be healed if there's real, big ruptures in
them anytime in the lifespan. Earlier is better than later,
(07:03):
but doing it is better than not doing it. Yeah,
when you talk about attachment secure versus insecure, I just
want to make sure people understand what attachment what that means. Yeah,
So there is a formal approach to parent you called
attachment parenting that, as far as I can tell, has
nothing to do with attachment research. So I'm not talking
(07:23):
about attachment parenting. So the word attachment can be used
however you feel like using it. No one's got like
an ownership of it. But in the field of psychology
that studies child development, there's a branch of that called
attachment theory and research. That's just what they used for
their academic studies. That's what I'm trained in, and what
(07:43):
we do is we study of parents and other caregivers
and how they interact with children. One of my colleagues
has been doing this in a study over forty five
years in length, where they study the families before the
child was born, so during a pregnancy, and now those
kids are in their mid forties. In a nutshell, what
(08:04):
we've learned from that attachment research is that there are
these patterns in which we tend to fall, which include,
in the broadest categories, what's called secure attachment, which leads
to resilience in a child. And that's in the United States,
somewhere between fifty five and six kids with their primary
(08:25):
caregiver have a secure attachment's great news, But for close
to a third to a half, you know, we have
non secure attachment with their primary caregiver, which is what
the research studies. Because you have many a number of
attachment figures when you look at the non secure forms,
there are three kinds. One is avoidant, which is about
of population, where basically it was emotional distance, and the
(08:48):
kid learns how to be prematurely autonomous, right, and that
has all sorts of consequences in that person's adulthood and
their romantic relationships. And then the second grouping, which is
about fifth team person of the population, is ambivalent attachment,
where they got mixed messages and so instead of the
disconnection of the avoidantly attached kid with the primary caregiver,
(09:10):
this one is kind of confused, like who are you?
Who am I? I'm not sure do you love me enough?
Maybe you do, maybe you don't write, and the boundaries
were sometimes not clear, sometimes they were true to intruded upon.
And then overlapping these three secure and the two forms
of non secure is the most concerning form disorganized attachment.
And these kids have the worst outcome, where you are
(09:33):
terrified of your caregiver, and so obviously this is an
abuse and neglect, but even in more subtle forms where
you may not be removed from the care of your parents,
but here you're still being terrified of the caregiver in
various ways. And those kids develop what's called dissociation, so
they have a fragmentation of their mind. Now it's very healable,
it's very disturbing of their ability to regulate their own
(09:55):
emotions or to engage in mutually rewarding relationships with others.
So I've worked with, you know, adults who bring their
obviously older parents in talk about a rupture a long
time ago or something like that. That's right, and some
of the most amazing healing has happened, you know, when
the parents are in their sixties or seventies and they
(10:16):
come in and the child is in her thirties or forties,
and then we do the work, and it's amazing that
the healing, the reconnecting, the becoming whole is what healing needs,
you know, really requires a kind of kindness and vulnerability
that allow to heal from ruptures. It doesn't always happen.
Not all parents are up for that. So sometimes you
(10:39):
as an individual need to make sense of your own life.
And Mary Hartzel, my daughter's preschool director, and I wrote
a book called Parenting from the Inside Out. Yeah you did,
and and we can talk about that. But that inside
out approach basically says you're going to heal yourself, even
if your parents don't cooperate, or even if they're not
still alive. So, if you've had an avoidant back ground,
(11:00):
you can move towards security. If you've had an ambivalent background,
you can move towards security. And if you've had a
disorganized one, you can move towards these various forms of
non secure attachment, but even security. So the great news
is that if you're listening, you can change. And you know,
the mindset book I wrote, you know, or parenting remainside
(11:21):
out give you the pathways to change. Can you give
me an example of a big rupture versus a little rupture,
just so I have like a sort of framework. A
rupture would be obviously like a divorce or like moving
out of parents. I mean huge things, right, Yeah, So
let's just look at the science of that. There is
a term called developmental trauma that usually means abuse of
(11:46):
some sort or neglect. And then neglect can be severe
emotional neglect or severe physical neglect. And obviously the abuse
can run the range of sexual abuse, physical abuse, emotional abuse,
where there's something very negative that's present rather than the
absence of something positive that's needed. And neglect and abuse,
(12:07):
these forms of developmental trauma. There's basically the experience of
a child being terrified of something being created by the
attachment figure, which means the parent usually, but it can
be other attachment figures. Now you know feel that I'm
a part of attachment. Research shows is that when a
child feels terrified of the attachment figure, it creates a
(12:32):
kind of bind inside their own brain, a double thing
going on. One thing is that the deepest part of
the brain says, oh my gosh, I'm being terrified. Let
me get away from the terror. But another part of
my brain, a little bit higher up in the brain says,
I'm a mammal, and when I'm in a state of terror,
where I go is to my attachment figure to be protected,
(12:55):
because that's one of the main things attachment is all about,
is safety. So here's the difficult situation. It's called fear
without solution. It's a biological paradox. If the attachment figure
is causing the state of terror, then one part of
the brain says, get away from that source of terror.
The other part says, go towards the attachment figure, who
(13:17):
is the source of terror. So your mind fragments. That's
the most extreme. Now it doesn't have to be abused
and neglect, so this is where people should know about it.
It can be an example of flipping your lid as
a parent where you're not abusive in terms of neglect
or physical abuse. It's not developmental trauma, but it is
still terrifying to your kid. So this is now a
(13:40):
little step down. And yet it can be very toxic
to a child, even if you don't want to use
the word trauma, and it could fall into the category
of adverse childhood experiences, which is what you're talking about.
In my household, I have a very, very dynamic three
and a half year old toddler boy who really enjoys
(14:04):
if you tell him to do something, he's not going
to do it, and enjoys that. It's like wild and
it's perfect for me, because good lord, we couldn't be
more opposite. So I'm a hippie in my sort of
parenting style. And it was quick to realize that worked
for the first two two and a half years with
my son and now it really doesn't. Anyway. My husband
(14:25):
has really more of the disciplinary and if you would
go with a good cop, bad cops situation. Now when
you use the word disciplinary, and what do you mean,
Like he was better at following through, Like we have
a long leash, but if it's something where someone's going
to get hurt, or we have a new born at
three and a half month old, and one time he
stepped on her head on purpose and it was like, okay,
(14:45):
and now you're going to your room, and you have
to think about what you've done. And violence is never tolerated,
and we don't touch our friends bodies this way and
our family members and blah blah blah. My husband is
better at that than me in just like you're going
your room right now. I'm so angry at you. This
is unacceptable. And guess what hanukas canceled? Christmas is canceled,
(15:08):
dessert is canceled, TV is canceled. And then he goes
to his room and it was very upsetting and he
was very sad and it was the most trouble he's
ever got in and rightfully so, he's he literally looked
me in the eye and stomped on his newborn sister's head.
But my son is more afraid of my husband than
he is me, Like, is this a rupture because Adams
(15:29):
like I don't want to be the bad cop all
the time. But our son is not someone that listens
easily with being told what to do. And I don't
know if it's the age, I don't know, if it's
his spirit. I have no idea. I've only met him
three and a half years ago. This podcast for everyone
has just literally become my session with my son. You're welcome, everyone,
don't worry. We'll get back on topic in one. Here's
(15:52):
the thing everyone listening should just take a deep breath
and reflect that every kid is different. They have, you know,
something called it temperament, and that's kind of their inborn
proclivities that are in the eight There are not learned
and they're slightly modifiable, but not that much. Temperament is
very real. Some of it is genetically related, but in
(16:12):
any event, it's inn eight, not learned. Right. So the
next thing that we're talking about is attachment. You know,
how do the relationships you have with your caregivers, you know,
within the family setting, influence how you work through your
way of being in the world to develop what's simply
called personality. When I think about my two kids, you know,
they had very different temperaments. So if you thought you
(16:34):
were doing a strategy that worked for the older one
and then tried it on the younger one who temper
was totally different, it just wouldn't work. So you can
have a broad approach to attachment, like you want to
develop secure attachment, but then there are absolutely modifications one
needs to make depending on the temperament of the kid.
So let's talk about Adams, you know, being stern talking
(16:55):
about the brain a little bit. As the brain is developing,
let's say from nine to twelve months, which is the
time when a kid begins to crawl, um, the brain
of that child has got to learn to develop these
basically like a break, you know, to to to shut
down behavior. And so what you see then in this
time period is parents start saying no, no, no, no,
(17:18):
no a lot. The way you say no is what's important, right,
So if you say no, no, no, no, no no,
and nothing happens, the kids inhibitory circuits are not going
to develop, right, and so they're just gonna push you
and push you and push you until you just you
think you're gonna lose your mind. You're using the word
stern for Adam, So be able to be clear about it.
(17:39):
I said, no, you know, like this, You know, it
may make your kid frustrated, It may make them really
piste off, but it's not terrifying them. Now. Inhibiting that
may take a stern boundary that if you can't create it,
Adam can create it. Oh no, I've gotten good. It's
(17:59):
a learning curve. But I'm here. Yeah, okay. Good. So,
because when there's dangerous things going on like that that
could be harmful, sometimes you have to say no, you know,
and but there's no such thing as perfect parenting. Ruptures
happen a kid. Their job is to push against the boundaries,
and then, depending on your own childhood and your own temperament,
you know you're gonna cave in in various ways. Here's
(18:21):
an example where my kids were older than your son
is at that time. But I had a nine at
the time, my daughter and then our son was fourteen,
and they went to the movies. Right. I took my
daughter to a movie, and my son wanted to go
to a movie with his friends. We picked up her
brother and we were walking by this crepe store near
where we live, and my son said, he's hungry. I said,
(18:43):
you want to creepe, and he said, yeah, I love creep.
And then I asked his sister, do you want to crepe?
She goes, I'm not hungry. I said fine, you know,
so we went in. He got a creep and then
she said to him, can I have a taste of
your crepe? He goes now and he's eating and needing
it and smells are coming from the scrape. She can,
I have a little bit. He goes, okay, okay, get
and he cuts her off that inche that's like really
(19:05):
burnt and tasteless, and so hands it to her on
his fork. She goes, that's too small. Oh hilarious, and
he goes forget it. And I'm just fuming inside, like
I've done horrible job teaching him to be a sharer
and he's selfish and all stuff. We get in the car,
you know, and I slammed the door shut, and he goes,
(19:25):
what's wrong with you? What's wrong? I said, well, you
didn't share the crape and he goes, yeah, because she
didn't want one, and I was hungry. I said, well,
what if this is one of those friends you know
then you went to the movies with him? He goes,
I'd give them half my crape. So I go, well,
why wouldn't you give your sister one? He goes, she's
not my friend. Yeah, and then I exploded. Luckily my
(19:46):
wife was home and she intervenes. When we get we
all have three of us get home, and then my
system is starting just slowly calm down. And so his
sister and I go for rollerblading out on the street
and she says to me, she goes, dead, what was
going on? Why why did you get so angry? I said, oh,
(20:08):
you know, because he didn't share the crepe with you.
She goes, I can handle myself. What was happening? I said, oh,
I guess if I thought about it. You know, I'm
a younger child, just like you're the younger sibling, because
my brother was really mean to me, and if your
brother was ever mean to you, I was never gonna
let that happen to if I ever had kids. And
so I was trying to guess work through the way.
(20:28):
My parents never protected me, so I was trying to
protect you. And since she looks at me, she goes,
this is your own garbage. She goes, why don't you
work this out on your own time? And that's parenting
to talk about this crapes of wrath business. That was
the rupture and then figuring it out. But the repair
happened when she and I got back from the rollerblading thing.
(20:49):
We had a family meeting and and I apologized to
my son for having you know, flipped my lid, for
just asserting his right to eat his crape by himself.
And I was able to talk about, you know, to
him about what the experience was like and then with it.
Since his mother didn't watch all this, I asked him
(21:11):
if he wanted to, you know, share what the experience
was like, and then he imitated me, and he did
a really good job of how ridiculous I was, so
so inside of me. I had to be ready in
terms of the repair process. And we're the older, more experienced, wiser,
hopefully ones than our kids. So it's our responsibility to
(21:32):
make the repair right. That's so important. Yeah, we need
to understand that these are vulnerable places in us. So
whatever issues I have with my brother being you know,
protected by my parents and me not being protected and
all these kind of stuff, that's not for me to
work out with my kids, but it's to to work
it out with them that I did something pretty scary
(21:53):
cur saying slamming the slamming the door. It was terrible,
I mean, and so I had to own that and
apologize for that instead of saying, yeah, but you made
me do it because you wouldn't share. And I don't
like selfish kids. You know, I could, you could do that,
you could go that route, sure, but that's really the
opposite of repair. I think I was watching maybe it
(22:24):
was your Google talk, but so much about we're talking
about these repairs and ruptures. If you do a lot
of the repairing of your own life, it's so helpful
to you as a parent, because a lot of times
nothing shows you your weaknesses more. And I sit here
and I see my other friends kids who listen when
(22:45):
they're asked once. They're not boundary pushers. That's not what
they Their kids are doing something else, you know what
I mean. Like I was just at a swim class.
My son's learning to swim, and my son has gotten
in really big fat rubble every swim class because he's
splashing all the other kids in the face and making
them cry. Okay, and the kid who's crying is afraid
(23:09):
of the water. And my son senses that he's afraid
of the water, and so he's instigating and splashing and
things like that. I'm the mom freaking out that my
kid is making other kids cry. But my kid is
like animal beast in the water, loves nothing more than
diving off the side. And today's the graduation from swim class,
and he's showing off everybody's such a good swimmer. The
mom of the shy boy who is crying is a really,
(23:31):
really tough mom, and she's having such a hard time
that her son is struggling in the water. And I'm
looking at each other and I'm like, oh my god, Like, really,
in another life, should we we We would switch and
we would both be like not having on this journey
learning whatever the hell it is that we're learning. Yeah, well,
(23:52):
they definitely teach us. You know. There's something called reflective dialogues,
which is a dialogue as a conversation. Reflection means to
the inward. And there are three kinds of maps that
the brain is able to make. It's called a mind
site or seeing the mind mindset map of oneself, a
mind site map of someone else, so it's a U map,
(24:12):
so it's a me map, you map, and a WE map.
So ideally for your son, whether it's going to happen
soon or later, if you don't mind me giving you
reflections on this, you know, he needs to develop the
mind site abilities to be able to make a map
of himself. I really feel like splashing these kids because
I'm so good and I want to show my strength,
(24:34):
and then he does not do it. So a mind
site map would say, I've got the urge, but I'm
not going to allow the impulse to turn into action.
And you know some people call that self control and
and that's going to be something, Yeah, he needs to learn,
but it's gonna require awareness. That's number one. A U
map would be where he makes a map of that
kid who shy and he realizes this kid is already
(24:57):
having a hard time with water, so for me to
splash him in the face is really mean. And I
don't want to be a mean person, or if I
do want to be a mean person, if I like
hurting people, I need some help. And then there's what's
called we map, right like I want to be a
part of this class where I'm a welcome member of
(25:19):
this group, and that's a we map. Right, So we
learned these mind side maps in our homes. But you
and Adam, you can sit down with your kids. I
mean you're three month was a little young for this.
But where you start talking about Okay, let's talk about today.
Let's talk about, you know, swim class being over and
you splashing kids in the face. I'm not mad. You
(25:42):
say it's his mom um, but I'm I want to
talk about what you think that kids experience was to
be scared of the water. You know that, and then
you're splashing him in the face. This is so helpful.
I want to sit and have this like lovely conversation
with him and not put too much pressure on it exactly.
And when you're feeling really centered and calm and can be,
(26:04):
you know, open to whatever it is, and you can remember, Katie,
that you can have this coal state curious, open, accepting
and loving c O a L. It's just something to remember.
That's one of the best definitions of mindful. So when
you mindfully have this conversation with him, Katie, you bring curiosity.
I'm really curious about it. You're open to whatever he says. Well,
I wanted him to feel bad. You don't get angry
(26:26):
about that. You accept that's what he said, and you
bring a loving stance and then you're going to explore it. Right.
So when we bring a coal kind of presence to
our interactions as parents, what's great about that is that
you know you come from a place that you're being
a role model for him too of how he can
be that way also in life. I love coal And
(26:48):
you don't think of three and a half year old
you think it's this is like great to be starting this.
Oh my god, yes, okay, God, Actually this is a
great example. There's a research study which looked at death kids, right,
and they were around your son's age three and a
half four, and they divided them into two groups. One
group had these mind site abilities where they knew about
(27:10):
emotions and their impact on us. They knew about how
memory works. These are three and a half year olds,
four year old, so they had these mind site skills, right.
The other half of this group of deaf kids didn't
have those skills of insight into one's own inner life
or the inner life of others. That's what mind site means, right.
So then they studied these and they found that one
(27:32):
of the groups that had the mind side abilities versus
the ones that didn't have the mindset abilities divided up
really neatly into one had parents who were deaf at
birth and the other had hearing parents who then found
themselves with a deaf kid. Oh my god, Now which
group do you think is which? It turns out that
(27:53):
the deaf kids who were born to parents who were
deaf who knew how to do American sign language, they
had perfectly intact development of mind site abilities, whereas the
ones who are deaf who had parents who could barely
communicate with them. So, like, give you an example, if
a kid fell down, if that parent was a deaf
parent who knew how to sign in a sophisticated way,
(28:15):
they could have a reflective dialogue using sign language and
say that must have been so scary for you to
have your triesycle hit the stone. I'm so sorry that
was so scary. Here, come here and let me pick
you up and help you, whereas the other one just says,
get up. So parents who don't do reflective dialogues have
kids who just are external looking. They don't look inward,
(28:36):
either in their own life or the life of others.
So what you want to do, especially with someone with
a temperament like your kids temperament is you want to
give them mind site skills, the ability basically to make
a map of the mind inside myself. If I'm your son,
so I know what am I feeling, what am I thinking?
Where's my attention going, what's my intention? How do I
(28:57):
get a sense of what my impulse is from my behavior?
That's all called let's just put under the word insight.
And amazingly, we all have feelings and thoughts and impulses,
but not everybody is insight, right, So it's a way
of like making a map of my own interiority. Right.
We do a lot of this, and I actually, you
know I have I'm having such memories in this conversation
of the times that I got in trouble whatever that's
(29:20):
the word you want to use, growing up in my
household and got sent to my room to think about
what I had done. And they always ended with my
dad sitting at the edge of my bed and talking
about what had happened and how I feel and he
would always end up crying. My dad's super emotional dude,
like he would always end up crying and being like,
(29:40):
you know, I love you. And it's okay, and we
let's just talk, you know, and we always just have
like a nice talk about what it was that had happened.
And I'm just looking back on that and being like
my parents were really good about that. Everybody needs these
mind sight skills. It sounds like your parents gave you.
That's exactly what it is. So that's the site piece.
The second is, you know, empathy, So it's your own
(30:03):
self awareness, the ability to put yourself in someone else's shoes,
and then the ability for the WE map, which is
and where does this fall in society, in in the world,
in the world right And you could call that compassion
if you wanter kindness where you say there's a relationality
to me and that person. And so the way I'm
going to act in terms of the we is to
(30:26):
bring kindness into the world. And the WE map is
really saying, Okay, I'm a part of something larger than
just my body. I'm a part relationship with people in
the planet. So that would include you know, how you
treat nature, how you treat pets, how you treat the
trees around you. So this is what mindset involves. And
the great news about doing it understanding this as a
(30:47):
parent is you can have kind of a mind site
strategy where you say, my kids three and a half. Now, really,
what I made me for is when he's eighteen and
he's getting ready to launch, so I don't have to
do everything when he's three and a half. Ah, so huge.
(31:12):
I'm all about when your child has done something and
making sure you're coming from a stern, boundary but regulated place,
like I think if you're flipping your fucking lid, I
personally remove myself from the situation, let's say, and for
like five ten minutes until I've like feel like I'm
not coming at it from like a complete like my past,
(31:34):
like you had said, and then when I come at
it from a regulated place. We've been trying lots of
things like you have to go to your room. We're
going to take away this toy because you used it
to hit the dog or whatever it is. I'm basically
just trying them all because I'm trying. I'm learning as
I go. What are any suggestions in the discipline lanes?
(31:55):
So the word discipline, it's important remember as a parent
means to teach, does mean to punish. You know, when
Tina and I wrote the book No Drama Discipline. Our
main goal is to tell parents, you know, we miss
interpreted the word discipline to be I need to punish, right,
So that's the first thing to say, so that you
can say, well, okay, what am I trying to teach
my child? Well, you're trying to teach him the skills
(32:17):
of self regulation, to put it really simply, and you
know this wonderful research from Adele Diamond that shows that,
you know, self regulation is really gonna be learned like
between three and nine, you know, and the parts of
the brain that helped curb impulses will be developed now.
So he's just at the beginning of this. So you say, okay, well,
(32:38):
then I've got a good you know, six years to
be working on this project. Great, oh god, you know
this is the moment where these mind site skills you
will teach of self awareness and empathy and the WE
map will help him see, I have feelings and I
(33:00):
have an impulse. And just because I have an impulse
like to splash someone, you know, or hit the dog
with the toys, step on my sister with my foot,
I can actually be so empowered as even though the
impulse is there the action does not happen. It's not
that you always say yes hardly, It's that you identify
(33:22):
the feeling of a child and once you connect like that,
you can redirect their behavior. You know. I was like,
you really feel the need to hit? Okay, you can.
You're allowed to hit the couch, you're allowed to hit
the floor, but you can never hit a person, and
you can never hit an animal. Period. And now, after
a while of that not working good year, it got
(33:44):
to the point where I was like, if you hit
someone one more time, you don't get this, you know,
and that's when it works. Or if you hit one
more time, you you have to We're going to have
to start talking about consequences of things. And that worked, right,
And every kid is different. Is there ever a time
where throwing your kid in the room and closing the
door is like allows throwing your kid in the room
(34:05):
and closing the door. I wouldn't use the phrase throwing
your kid in the room. Yeah, throw is not good
escorting them, listen. Timeouts are a very interesting issue. The
way they've been researched shows that they work, but they're
never done in anger. They're always done where the child
(34:26):
is told before an incident has happened. If something happens
that is a problem in how behavior is going. I'm
going to give you what I'm going to call the
time out, and what that means is you're gonna take
five minutes and you are going to have a break
from being interacting with the family. And then as you
do that, I want you to think about what's going on.
(34:47):
Then in five minutes you can come back with the family.
What parents tend to do in real life, unlike what
the researchers very appropriately suggested, parents have taken that term
time out, and they mean they're going to punish them
by removing them from social connection, sometimes for half an
hour an hour. There is a place for timeouts done
the way research is suggesting it, but I don't think
(35:09):
there's a place for using timeouts as a punishment. It's
an opportunity to inspire to motivate, sure, but not to
vanish for an hour in social isolation. That is really
not what they were ever intended for by the researchers.
So if you want to follow the research protocol, go
for it, but don't use that as a way to
(35:32):
shirk your parenting responsibilities of teaching skills just because you're
fed up and now you're gonna, as you say, throw
your kid in the room. No, that's not okay, is
what I would say. You know, in my household, the
biggest boundary I can set with my son is taking
away his most favorite thing that he never gets, which
is the television. And that's how he knows it is
(35:54):
at the fan. And you know what else works on
my son. This is so lame. I cannot believe I
have turned into this mother. I'm the one too three mom.
And I think it's because it gives him a second
to control that impulse, if that makes sense. It gives
him a minute. Is that bad? No? I mean, you
know it's beautiful about that, Katie, is that you are
(36:16):
showing him that he can become aware that it's his
decision that he can feel. Oh, I can hit the
dog again. But you know, I really love television, So
I am choosing to actually not do it. And he's
learning from that way you're doing it that he actually
has an option that is in his control. I try
to always given options because this kid is a negotiating,
(36:40):
autonomous being. Yeah, you're teaching him the skill of self regulation,
you know, which is important to do, and this is
this is gonna be over the next few years. You
want to take a deep breath and just realize it
doesn't mean he's gonna wait till then, but you have
this time. Especially in the next couple of years, his
(37:01):
inhibitory circuits from the higher part of his brain to
the lower part of his brain are developing. And the
way you come to say no in a way that
invites him to say, oh, I see, I have an
impulse I'm not going to act on it is actually
going to grow those inhibitory fibers from the higher parts
to the lower parts of his brain. And that's what
(37:22):
self regulations depended on. And that's the skill you're going
to give to him. The other thing I do is
how I got it. I was like, if you hit
one person at this party, we're leaving, so just know that,
and he did and I then I the funked up
part is that I have to follow through because it's
like he did it, and I was like, you hit
him in the face with a stick. So we're going
(37:43):
to leave the party and he's screaming, I don't want
to go, I don't want to go, and I'm like,
I know you don't want to leave, but I told
you that if you hit someone, we have to leave
the party good and you follow through with it and
have the next party go much better. He didn't do it,
there you go, but then he'll forget and it could
happen again. And that's a great example of teaching them
the skills of self regulation. This is exhausting. Thank you
(38:09):
so much. I can't like guys. Just google Dr Dan SEAgel,
get all the books. I'll have to have you on
again because we're moms and we can't listen to podcasts
that are more than an hour. We don't have time
for that. But this is um been so so so helpful.
Thank you so much for being on Katie's Krim. You're welcome.
Thank you, Katie. Can you believe this is the kid
(38:32):
that God she gave me. It's perfect. It's great for you, Yes, exactly.
What an opportunity to learn. Thank you guys so much
for listening to this week's episode. I hope you've got
a lot out of it. I know I did. I
want to hear from you guys. What are topics you
want to discuss guests that you want to have on
(38:53):
I'm always open to hearing your thoughts. You can email
me at Katie's Crib at Shonda land dot com. Katie's
Crib is a production of Shonda Land Audio in partnership
with I Heart Radio. For more podcasts from Shondaland Audio,
visit the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you
listen to your favorite shows. You until you try me
(39:27):
need
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