February 18, 2019 • 53 mins
Katie Lowes talks to Julie Lythcott-Haims, author of The New York Times best-seller How to Raise an Adult: Break Free of the Overparenting Trap and Prepare Your Kid for Success. Lythcott-Haims breaks down what it means to overparent, and the impact it has on kids and society as a whole. They also discuss some helpful strategies on how to stop helicopter parenting in its tracks, so you can raise children who become independent adults that can fend for themselves in the real world.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:05):
Hi, everybody, and welcome to Katie's Crib. In this episode
I'm so omitting, we're talking to Julie Liffcott Haimes. Julie
is the author of the New York Times bestseller How
to Raise an Adult, Break Free of the Overparenting Trap,
and Prepare Your Kid for Success. In this amazing book,
Julie breaks down the impact of overparenting or you know
(00:25):
what some of us would call helicopter parenting, can have
on children and what leads us as parents to do
this in the first place. The book offers helpful strategies
for avoiding the overparenting trap so we can help our
children be independent and confident as they head out into
the world. And it does. I can't even tell you
I've listened to this book on tape. It's gotten me
through every traffic jam in Los Angeles for the last um.
(00:47):
I burned through that book. You guys, run out get
it Amazon, Audible, wherever. Julie is also the author of
the book Real American, a memoir. She's a mom of
two teenagers. She spent a decade as the dean of
Freshman at Stanford University. We're so lucky to have Julie
joined us on Katie's Crib over the phone today to
share her experiences and wisdom with all of us. Hi Julie,
(01:09):
Hi Katie, thank you so much for having me. Wow,
I'm just thrilled that you're listening to my book in
l a traffic jams. Oh it is. It's an incredible
book and I feel I mean it's probably a little bit.
I mean I only have a sixteen month old, and
I think the book all the time to get it right,
my friend, I hope so, oh god, I hope so.
(01:30):
And the book speaks a lot about this is it
called what do you call like the college arms race,
or like this whole thing that's happening of like you
gotta get into the right preschool, and you got to
get into the right elementary school, and you gotta writ
into the high school that shovels you into the correct
you know, everything about being right and the best, and um,
(01:50):
the book talks so much about safety ism and this
culture we're living in where kids just really aren't pushed
out the door to sort of people were or ride
a bike to school at a certain age because it's
safe and it's important for them to learn independence. Um.
I learned so much from the book. I am very
much like you at the beginning. It touched me so much.
(02:12):
You said, I think your first kid was five weeks
old and you went to look at the nursery school
that you had always dreamed of. I did the same
thing at five weeks old, and I was like, Oh,
I am in trouble. I am an overachieving millennial who
thinks this can be done right. I'm a hard worker.
I'm going to work my ass off as a mom,
(02:32):
and I find your book to be take the pressure off.
Oh good, I'm so glad. You know I wrote this
book because I was am I jumping in here? No, no no,
please jump in jump in. Um. I so appreciate your
personal resonance. And at the end of the day, we
have been entrusted with this humbling task of trying to
(02:53):
be the adults who get to be alongside these young
people and escort them on this path to an independent adulthood.
It's a humbling task. It's awesome in the sense of
big and important, and um, we've just started taking it
so overly seriously. We're actually getting in the way of
(03:13):
our kids being able to make it along their path.
And I learned this because I was a dean at
a university working with other people's kids, and I was
railing against all of this parental involvement at the college level.
Parents wanting to talk to professors, parents wanting to review
homework before it's turned in, parents needing to know all
the time, what's going on, how's it going. I'm gonna
(03:34):
get your apartment for you. I'm going to say, I'm
gonna I'm gonna handle it. And then I had my
AHA moment, which was I came home for dinner one
night when my own kids were eight and ten. After
railing against this behavior on my campus for seven years,
I come home. I lean over my ten year old
son's plate and I began cutting his meat. And that
was the moment when I realized, holy shit, I'm gonna
(03:57):
can I say that, Oh yeah, yeah, right, yes, Holy shit,
I'm on track to be one of those parents who
will not be able to let go of her eighteen
year old because she's cutting them meat of a ten
year old. And I realized he could go to the
army at eighteen, he could go to college at eighteen,
he could have a job at eighteen. Those are the
options pretty much right? And I am under preparing him
(04:18):
for that point because I'm cutting his meat and there's
so many skills a little human has to learn between
cutting your meat and be ready for any of those
three outcomes. So that's when I got it, and I realized,
I gotta stop criticizing this whole thing and start to
understand what are we doing and why because I'm part
of it, and maybe i can be part of the
solution because I'm definitely part of the problem. Were you
(04:38):
able at that point to really woke up the next
day everything is no, Oh my gosh. I mean it
starts with the philosophical awareness that, oh my gosh, what
am I doing? I am living my child's life for him.
I'm tying his shoes too long, I'm cutting his meat
too long, I'm making sure her homework is always correct
(05:02):
and in the bag. All of these things we do
to try to help, we have to realize inside of
it in kind of an existential philosophical sense, Wait a minute,
I am basically supplanting myself in the role they're supposed
to play in their own life. This is their life.
I'm here to guide and advise, but not do it
all for them. So you've got to make the philosophical
(05:23):
switch in your head and then you can start to say, okay,
so what does that mean. Well, it means you've got
to start teaching your kids skills. From the minute your
kid can walk, they're walking away. And to us in
our melia, whether you're gen X like me or millennial
like you, you know, we're terrified by the thought of
our kids walking away, right, because we've been branded, you know,
the whole stranger danger safety. First, we were just worry
(05:46):
that at every juncture there's a disaster about to befall
our kids, and so we end up depriving them of
all of the independence building and skill building that ought
to happen slowly but surely over the course of these
eighteen years. Right. My grandmother made me so sad over
the holidays. She said, oh, I don't I don't wave
or say hi to little kids in the grocery store anymore.
(06:09):
And I was like, what, my sweet little granny in Buffalo,
New York, And She's like, oh yeah, Like I just
feel like I'm not allowed to do that and I'm
gonna get in trouble. And I'm like, oh my god like,
that is awful, And I have to admit, you know,
the first time I ever took my son out of
the country, and we were standing right off the plane
in the customs line, and every single person was grabbing
my kid, kissing his cheeks, holding his hands because he's
(06:30):
a baby and he brings joy to people. And my
immediate reaction was, oh, my god, we don't know you
go away, you can't touch my kid. And then I
took a step back and said, no, this is why
I'm traveling and showing him places, because we're supposed to
meet and see other people on how people do things,
and um it just really I've got a lot of
perspective that the stranger danger thing is real. Everyone's afraid.
(06:53):
My mom used to have this rule. If I don't
hear from you in twenty four hours, I'm going to
call the cops and I will assume you have been kidnapped.
The kidnapping thing, which you talk a lot about in
your book Coming of Age at the time when people's
faces were on Milk Carton's that was my childhood for sure,
and that we're going to be taken and actually the
statistics are not, um not, that is not the case, right, right,
(07:15):
I mean, it does happen, and that it happens at
such an infinitesimal rate it doesn't make sense to structure
every day of childhood around it. To put it in context,
a child is much more likely to die being the
passenger in a car than they are to be to
die or be harmed at the hands of a stranger,
and yet we don't construct their lives so that we
(07:37):
don't ever put them in cars. I mean, I'm talking
to you in l a, right, I know you live
my whole life, my whole life, and the Bay Area
isn't that much better. So it's a we've allowed that
fear to penetrate our minds as parents, and it actually
ends up putting us out of our minds because it
makes everything this sort of fearful life or death moment,
and so are our kids lives, and our lives are
(07:57):
incredibly anxiety written riddled as we act as if everything
is of such major consequence that we have to kind
of be there to hover over it at all times,
and this ends up harming kids. Okay, you guys, we're
gonna take a quick break and then we will be
back with more Katie's Crib. All right, you guys, I
know we're all out there trying our very best to
(08:18):
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(09:25):
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You'll see all the amazing stories there. It's seriously been
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you're welcome check it out. Now back to our episode.
Can you explain for those um listening who haven't read
your book in and recommend that you guys do. Can
you give us an overview of what you mean when
(09:46):
you say I think we've covered it, but just in case,
the overparenting, helicopter parenting, so, um, they're all sorts of
funny terms. Helicopter parents was probably the original one, but um,
snowplow parent, lawnmower parent, drone parent. You can hear the
drone right, think of just that buzzing like totally totally
(10:08):
totally handle this and swoop back out. Um anyway, so
I wanted to get behind the funny terms and figure
out what are the behaviors. And there are three kinds
of behaviors that comprise over parenting, as I call it
in my book title, um, and they are these. The
overprotective parent is the first type. This is the parent
(10:28):
who feels the world is scary and unsafe and unpredictable,
which is sort of true, and this is the parent's mistake,
and therefore I must prevent and protect at all times
instead of preparing my kid to be strong and thriving
out there. This is the parent who wants to prepare
the road for the child instead of to prepare the
child for the road. Okay, well, wants to bubble wrap
(10:49):
the kids. Every existence has to know at all times,
where is my kid, how are they doing? GPS tracking
them on technology and all that. Okay. That's the overprotective type,
which ends up raising a child who ends up raising
a child who is afraid of strangers, who doesn't know
how to be anywhere alone, who who's Who's sort of
on this leash constantly held by the parent. Okay. The
(11:11):
second type is the overdirective parent, a k a. The
tiger type, which I'm here to say is not limited
to Chinese Americans or Indian Americans or whoever you want
to limit it to, is not I've seen black folks
and white folks and Jewish people and all kinds of people.
Tiger parenting. This is the I know best what leads
to success, kid, and you will do as I say.
(11:32):
You will be a doctor, you will go into finance. Okay.
This is the parent who is certain you will be
a tennis star. You know, Andrea Agrassy's dad was a
tiger dad. You know, you will live the life I
intend for you to live. And oh, by the way,
maybe my love for you might be conditioned upon your success. Acute,
my plans for your life. Okay. And those students, those
(11:55):
young people end up, you know, at some point having
a breakdown, like God, damn it, I'm gonna have my
own life, thank you very much. Okay. The third type
is the handholder for the concierge. This is the parent
who wants to wake the kid up, keep track of
their deadlines, keep track of their belongings, bring them any
forgotten stuff. This is me, This is me, this is me.
(12:17):
And you're in Hollywood, right You're you're an actor, you
you know. I imagine in that Miliea, You've got all
kinds of people who get credits at the end of
the show for helping out right there there, to bring
you stuff and remind you of stuff and tell you
what's next. Right, children don't need that. Okay, they got
to wake their own ass. But children don't, okay, And
so this is the parent who just loves being needed
(12:40):
and useful. Okay, our kid has to remember to bring
their own stuff to school, and one of the best
ways to remember is to feel the sting of having
forgotten when they get the zero in fourth grade because
they didn't turn in their homework. There's actually no better
way to teach that brain. Oh my goodness, I need
a better plan or a plan for remember bring my homework,
(13:00):
my sporting equipment, my lunch, my coat. Okay. If the
parent always rescues, the kid's brain never learns. All the
kid's brain learns is a parent will always rescue me, which, hey,
by the way, isn't true. I mean in some ways
my messages, Hey, parents will be dead one day, so
you have to instill skills in your kids so that
they can survive when you're gone. I mean that is
the cold, hard, twitter length, tweet length truth of this. Yeah, no,
(13:25):
this is serious. But those are the three types a
person can be doing one, two, or all three. Yeah,
I'm definitely three, probably a mixture of one in three
and then I'm only in this for sixteen months, but
I got the writing of them all. I'm twoining three.
By the way, I want to make sure everyone knows
I am. Here are two and three? Oh see. I
(13:45):
I could never tell him what to do, but I
would be like, oh, you want to try this, Let's
try this and throw everything I have at this, and
then try that. And you forgot this, Let me pick
it up for you. I'll wake you up. What do
you need to eat? Like? It's just gonna be mm hmmm,
not great. Um, you've set a unique perspective not only
is a mother and a person out in the world,
but from your experience in academia, which we've touched on
(14:06):
and being the dean at Stanford UM working with college freshman,
how have you seen kids and young adults change over
the years In the years that I've been tracking this problem, UM,
which I would say started around UM became the dean
in two thousand two, wrote my first op ed on
the subject. In oh five, things got really much worse
(14:30):
with the smartphone, and oh seven I left Stanford to
go back to school to try to develop the chops
to write a book that came out in So. I've
been looking at this for a long time, and I
am not a researcher, so I haven't studied this, uh
in any empirical way. Um, but I do rely on
(14:51):
the work of psychologists who are studying the effects of
helicopter parenting. Things are getting worse more and more. It is.
It is common play now in many communities for parents
to be so involved in homework. They're kind of sort
of doing the homework sometimes. Okay, schools know it, but
they just don't know how to stop it in parents
(15:11):
and say, I have to do the homework because if
I don't do some of my kids homework, my kid
is competing in class with every other kids parents. You know.
In other words, right, so, um, kids are accustomed to parents,
um knowing everything about their lives at all times. The
researcher Gene Twangy says, gen Z, which is the generation
behind you millennials. Um, these are young people today, as
(15:34):
old as nineteen. She says, they're more likely to be
out of the house without a parent. Um, sorry, more
likely to be out of the house with a parent
than you were or gen xers were, or boomers were.
They're more likely to be inside the house with a
parent than you were or older people were. In other words,
they're never alone, and so they're adulting later, and in
(15:55):
some ways there are benefits. They're drinking later, they're driving later,
they're having sex later. They're basically attended like dogs on
a leash at all times. Okay, so they are growing
up more slowly, and while there are some benefits to that,
the risky behaviors I just mentioned, what they're not developing
alongside of this is skills like how to be home
alone and feel okay and feel like you can handle,
(16:18):
you know, things that might arise, how to how to
make a meal for yourself, how to take public trams,
hole down a job like you know, when you're a
babysitter it in your teen's like I was, like, you know,
I was hosting in a restaurant in sixteen, you know,
like I was doing stuff. That's right. So let's pause
here and say because you just made a really important
point that I don't want to overlook, which is the
(16:40):
problem we're talking about is largely a function of affluence.
Parents who have time and money on their hands, are
using it to cultivate every moment of childhood and to
constantly be there. A parent who's working class, are poor,
doesn't have the time to spend hover ring over their
(17:00):
child's every moment. Okay, so there's this wonderful irony that
I saw as dean. My students who came from what
we would call disadvantaged backgrounds um actually had a tray
in their tool kit. As I say in the book,
that they're more affluent counterparts lacked. They had a clearer
sense of self. They had a clear sense of I'm
(17:21):
I'm the one who's obligated to handle this. I've got
to think through my situation and come up with, you know, solutions.
They were more self reliant and they were more resilient. Now,
I'm not trying to romanticize poverty or struggle, but I
am here to say, if you emerge from that environment
and get to college, because you've had a great teacher,
to a great mentor too who helped see you through
(17:42):
from a difficult childhood to that for your college, you
have a set of skills your more affluent peers lack.
And that's a beautiful thing. So the question is, when
we're raising kids amid affluence and influence. How do we
instill in our kids that work ethic, that sense of
account ability and responsibility that other kids learned the hard
(18:03):
way because their childhood was harder. You know, I remember
this my dad. I mean amazingly, I went to school
for drama, which even that in it of itself, I'm
sure a lot of parents would have been like hell no. Um.
And it was amazing that he was cool with me
majoring in drama. And but the day I graduated was
(18:23):
the day. And it to even get that far was
crazy because he had supported me until I was twenty one,
which there are many people that do not get that. Um.
So I had his support financially until I was twenty one.
And my graduation day he said, good luck, you're at zero.
How amazing that you're not at a negative And um,
(18:44):
I've paid for your education, and now your rent is
due on the first every month that your apartment. Here
is your cell phone bill, and you're so lucky that
I'm going to cover your health insurance till you're twenty six.
But you're done. And I lost my it had a
panic attack. But I have to say it's the greatest
gift he gave me because he didn't have to do that.
(19:07):
He totally could have kept paying for my life. And
I could have cried and gone I was never gonna
be homeless. I could have gone home and I could
have given up. But I got three wagers in jobs
and babysitting gigs and catering gigs. And it was the
first time I had to work that hard in my life,
you know what I mean, Like it was and it
was so uh and it was really hard to be
(19:28):
in to to fight to to prove myself to be
an actor. But I have to say, I have so
many friends in their thirties, Julie whose parents are still
paying their rent. I Am not fucking kidding you. And
that is um again, such privilege speaking and not everyone
gets that, but there there, I just I can't even
(19:51):
believe that. I like, at that time, I would have
never thanked my dad. I was so like what But
it was the best lesson at twenty one, Like get
a job. You're lucky I paid for you for this long,
Like that's crazy. And I had summer jobs and I
had a little bit of savings, but you know, just
was like and now you're an adult. So, um, this
is beautiful, and it's beautiful to hear you say this
(20:13):
as a millennial. And I want to acknowledge that millennials,
many of them, graduated into the worst economy we had
seen since the Great Depression, and that set a whole
lot of people back. We're not here to bash a
whole generation. Um, No, there was no jobs for people.
It was dark. That said, if there are thirty year
olds whose parents are still paying their rent, unless it's
(20:34):
an incredibly wealthy family, they can set set up that
thirty year old, you know, to have some guaranteed income
for life once the parents are gone. Awesome, But that
that refers to like one percent or even point one
percent of the people, right, everyone else has to figure
out how to earn a living, how to pay their bills.
You get to decide how you want to earn a living.
You get to decide where you live so that the
living you earn can pay the bills. Right, cost of
(20:56):
living is really different in layer the Bay Area versus
say somewhere in Colorado where it might be more affordable,
or somewhere in New Mexico or somewhere in Texas. What
have you? Right? But You've got to make the choices
such that you can lead your own life and fend
for yourself. That's what adult ing is. It's being able
to fend for yourself. And it's not always pretty and
it's not always easy. But when you are fending, Boy,
(21:19):
doesn't it feel good After you've gotten over your you know,
anguish and anger at your dad and you started to
make your way. Oh my god, there's pride that you take.
Like I'm paying for this apartment. I'm renting an apartment.
I just made myself dinner, you know, I just got
myself on three buses to this job. Like there's a
tremendous sense of accomplishment we actually gain when we do
(21:40):
for ourselves. In contrast, when we're always held un a leash,
when someone's always handling things, we grow anxious and depressed
because essentially our own self is not doing the work
of living a life, and so the psyche knows something's
not right here. You know what's funny, I probably, looking
back on it, I bet if my dad had not
(22:02):
done that, he wouldn't want to hear this. If my
dad hadn't done that, I probably would have. You know,
I moved across the country, which was a big deal
for me as a you know, fourth generation New Yorker.
I moved to l a Um against my parents wishes,
but because I knew I could, because I had always
been paying you know, I moved at twenty five because
I had had three years under my belt paying my
(22:22):
rent and I knew I could. But if my dad
was still paying for me in New York, I don't
think I ever would have left. And then I would
have never met my husband, and I would have never
booked Scandal if I wouldn't be fan growing out right
now watched on Scandal. I can't believe it, and that's
so bad that I left. So sorry, dad, it's all
your faults anyway, Um, that's fault. So can I say
I know you? Well? Ask me your next question. I
(22:44):
have a set of a method please kids, skills that
I want to kind of get out if I could
pop please, because I want to move from this. Teach
me all the ways to like we're messing up our kids.
That's what's great about this book. There is a lot
I mean, yes, practical, How do I do this? How
do I agreise an adult who's gonna be able to
(23:06):
take care of himself, and right now, it's just about
my kid wiping his own butt. But you know, okay,
so wiping his own butt is the perfect example. Okay,
He's got to learn everything from wiping his butt to
crossing a street to earning a living, okay, And you're
supposed to teach him those things, but not do those
things for him. So the first thing I'm gonna say is,
we think in communities like yours and mind, I bet
(23:28):
in many of the communities represented by the listeners to
the podcast, we think that childhood today is about to
get him into the right preschool, in the right high school,
in the right college, like you said at the top
of the show. And we do all this enriching to
make sure they're going to look good on paper, to
impress somebody who's gonna admit them to something. And we've
totally overlooked two important things. According to the longest study
of humans ever conducted, the thing that predicts whether someone
(23:52):
is professionally successful in life is what did they do
chores as a child? Professional success in life. You want
to be successful, you got do chores or part time
job in high school? Why? Because these things teach you
to have a work ethic, roll up your sleeves, pitch
and be useful, don't wait to be served. Ask yourself,
how can I contribute my effort to making this situation better?
(24:16):
Chores or part time job? Okay, this is now my
mouth is completely a gap, and it's similar but different.
I say to everybody. Everybody should have to wait tables.
Everybody should work in the service industry. Everybody, at some
point in their life should have to serve people, whether
it's food, whether it's clothing, whatever that is. That's right.
I don't know why I believe that, but I believe that.
(24:37):
So if you did it, and you know it taught
you really valuable things to help you get ahead. And
you know, one the hard work I learned in the
service industry is the exact same hard work I learned
to try to be an actor. And I was a lawyer.
Before I was a writer and a dean. I was
a lawyer and I was a bus girl at a
restaurant called Perkins in Wisconsin, one of these twenty four
(24:58):
hour you know, rest wanes where you can eat anything
on the menu at any time to day. And I
was a bus girl, which meant I had to clean
the tables, and I had a mop and clean the
bathrooms nice hopefully, you know, I washed my hands in between.
And I'm telling you that sort of sense of what
what's the how can I go the extra mile here
so that you know, maybe my boss gives me a
slightly more elevated task. That mentality I brought into the
(25:21):
law firm when I was a young lawyer. You know,
how can I be useful? The big lawyers are doing
the important stuff. I'm the tiny little lawyer. How can
I be useful here? How can I make their task easier?
So chores? How early do we start them? And what
are they? Well? On pages this is a great book
I recommend, which I know you're familiar with, called How
to Raise an Adult And it on page one sixty
(25:42):
six to one sight is the chores list and starting
as young as two. So you got about I've got
four months. Chores are happening. Yeah, he's sixteen months. Oh no,
what is that? Terrible at math? Thank you did bad math?
I'm terrible that I dropped out of math in junior
of high school. Okay, So there's chores that for kids
(26:03):
as young as too. There in the book it's broken
down two to three, four to five, six and seven
what they can do. And you'll be astonished at what
kids at that age are supposed to be able to do.
And by the way, in many other cultures that they
do kids are doing without anyone batting an eeleft. Can
you give us like one example, because it blew my
mind in the book you said, like a ten year old,
like in Switzerland ten year olds or like baby like
(26:23):
stuff in America we would never do. Come on, I'm
fifty one and I babysat when I was ten, all right,
Like what's happened? You know what's really weird? Kids don't
babysit at that age anymore, right, because we think it's unsafe.
It's not allowed to be home alone until you hear
these horror stories about moms getting going to jail and
like getting their kids taken away from them. Be alone. Right,
(26:43):
But then there are some states that still have old
laws on the book that said, oh, you can marry
without your parents consent at sixteen. So there are states
that literally will say not you can't be home alone
till your twelve, but you can marry without concett at
six four years to kind of get it all figured out,
all right. It shows just how the past is out
of touch with the present. Okay, here's an example of
a chore um for two to three year old. Uh,
(27:06):
this is your this is the age when your child
will start to learn basic life skills. Caveat if you
let them all right, I like dressing himself or herself
with some help from you, putting their clothes in the
hamper when they undress, clearing their plate after meals. And
I know you're like, what, my two year old can't
clear their plate. Yeah, they can't. Give them a plastic plate.
Don't be feeding your two year old on china that
(27:27):
you're afraid it's going to drop to the floor and
gas utensils, and say, okay, we all clear our plates,
and your little one will learn to do it. And
the best thing is if you start young, they don't complain.
They like to be useful. It just becomes part of
the way the family works. Whereas if, like me, you
don't realize chores are important until they're like ten or twelve,
believe me, they'll be like, why what do you want
(27:49):
us to start helping I mean, we haven't been helping
you so far. Why does this matter? Okay, So chores
are are really essential. The other thing the study showed
is that happiness in life comes from from from loving
relationships with other humans. Okay, so our kids need to
be loved unconditionally at home. Not loved as a function
of how well they did on a test today or
what college they get into tomorrow, but just loved for
(28:11):
who they are, whatever their interests are. Love the heck
out of that kid. Help that kid become who they are.
Don't act like you wish your kid with someone else.
I mean, that's what the tiger type is doing. Right.
I love you if you'll go to med school. Right.
I don't love you if you're an artist. Please don't
do that, right. Okay, So they have to be loved
at home. So this unconditional love at home plus chores
is probably the foundational and food and shelter, you know,
(28:35):
the foundational things they need to experience so that they
can leave our homes and thrive out in the real world. Okay.
So now what I want to share is the fourth
step method for teaching any kid any skill. This is
on my website. People can follow up. I've got some
swag with little things that spell this out. Okay, this
is the four step method. Whatever it is, like, make
(28:55):
a meal, take public transportation, cross the street, track your
own deadlines, you know, fill out your own forms, whatever
the skill. Here's the fourth step method. First you do
it for them, Second you do it with them, Third,
you watch them do it, and fourth they can do
it completely on their own. And it's that pivotal we're
(29:16):
stuck in steps one and two if we're overparenting. We're
doing it for them okay, or with them with them,
but they're not learning because we're doing all the work.
They're just sort of they're right. Step three is the
big terrifying shift. You watch them do it. You're still there,
but they get to do it, and you have to
try not to micromanage every single piece. You're giving them
some feedback if there's anything disastrous happening. You're there to say, hey,
(29:38):
wait a minute, you know, let's turn down that step
right right, all right, but you're so you're there, and
then finally you do step three enough times you can
move to step four where your kid can cross the
street one day, not at age two, but maybe at
age seven or maybe at age ten, whatever it's appropriate.
Your neighborhood, you know, but at some point a kid
has learned across the street, and I'm must parenting fail
(30:01):
if we don't teach some of these basic things. This
is Um. Do you think, as me completely celfish and
mom to a toddler that these um, you know, I'm
not really focused on school or grades and college stuff now,
although I did look at way too many preschools. Um,
what's the overparenting trap at this stage? Is it like
(30:22):
what we talked about, like not letting him do chores
at two years old, or and those little things we
talked about, like your clothes. Here's an example, um, when
they're sticking. It's so that I'm I'm just all of
a sudden conjuring the image of my two kids at
that age, which is thank you for allowing me that
trip down memory lane, my two our nineteen and seventeen
years old. Um, so it's been a long time. But
(30:44):
here's an example. When you're a little sixteen month old
is playing with some awesome new toy that you know
Grandpa sent from New York and it's a shape s
order or I don't remember sure, right, but right there's
a shape they're supposed to put blocks into a thing
that has holes for the block. Part of you wants
to tell them exactly how to do it, you know,
(31:04):
kind of nudge the right shape to them. You know.
Part of right, you're raising your hand, right, because I
don't have the patience to like worried about that he's
not going to figure it out. No, it's like, let's
just get this. The patience is, yeah, let's get this done. Right.
That's an example like back away, shut up, yeah, yeah, yeah, stop.
(31:27):
You know, let your kids figure stuff out on his own.
You're right there, you're on the couch, maybe you're down
on the ground and you're playing with your own thing.
You don't have to be all up in it, right,
it's sort of one step removed at at at sixteen months,
two years. You know, you want to be a few
feet away, Okay, when they're five years old, you want
to be in the next room. Okay, when they're ten,
(31:50):
maybe you can be outside of the house so they
could be inside the you know, like we're constantly allowing
greater distance so that they grow comfortable without us. Yea,
they can try different things without us being there having
to handles for them. The other great thing that spoke
to me so much in your book was how you
speak to your child, getting that shape in the shape sorder,
(32:12):
when you're like, yeah, you did it. You're so special
for everything, which I'm convinced is why I'm an actor
because my parents I really had that growing up. You're
the most special, You're the greatest. That's the millennial thing, right, like,
you're the greatest, You're the most special. The world is
your oyster. You can have it all. You're gonna be
the best moment of the world, and you're gonna be
so successful and blah blah blah blah ba um, my kid,
(32:36):
I just I my I'm married to an actor. Were
very expressive and very big, and so everything is like
that was amazing. My friends are doing that too. This
is not good, right, it's not good. It's not good
in part because they really expect that life will have
that soundtrack always. So they leave your let's say you
(32:58):
talk like that for a teens and then they go
out into the real world and they're in the workplace
or the army or college, and there's nobody doing that anymore,
and so they're little psyche goes, Oh what what what?
Why am I not amazing anymore because we've we've sort
of made amazing, we've basically watered down amazing and perfect
and acted like they're going to hear those terms at
(33:19):
all times. So the enthusiasm is great. I mean, I
don't think there's anything wrong with the enthusiasm. But see
if you can use something like, um, that's a picture,
that's an awesome picture instead of you're perfect, you're amazing,
that kind of thing, you know. Yeah, I think that's right, Yes, yes, yes.
(33:42):
The problem that we're talking about with whatever age, like
this whole overparenting. I think you said in the book,
like you even see parents all the time on campus,
you would see parents all the time. How do you
think that this problem is You've touched on it a
little bit, But how do you think this problem is
translating in to the world of these millennials and these
(34:03):
these gen xer is like going on to getting jobs
or not getting jobs or what do you think is happening? Um?
I have two examples, three examples, I have nineteen examples.
I have a thousand examples. Um, in the workplace, how
this translates. Basically, if you're over parenting, you can never
stop your you're fostering a dependence on yourself right instead
(34:26):
of fostering independence. So it becomes this thing that just
reinforces itself. Well, my kids incapable because I've never talked
them anything, So now I have to continue to help
them at twelve and eighteen and twenty five and so on.
So in the workplace, if you've been over parenting all
the way through college, you're gonna over parent in the workplace.
You're gonna send out your kids, resume. Your kids going
to get a call to be offered a job, or
(34:48):
not a job, but an interview, and the kid's gonna say, what,
I don't think I applied. Well, that's because mom handled
that for you. Okay, You show up for an interview
and mom or dad is there to prep you for
the interview, not realizing that they're being observed in the
lobby of this of this business, and they can see
that this twenty two year old doesn't appear to have
the skills to prep for his or her own interview.
(35:09):
Mom or dad is there, Um, oh my god, is
this really happening. Parents are calling up emplawyers saying why
didn't you give my child child? Why didn't you give
my child a raise, why didn't you give them a
bigger bonus? And I think any employer worth their salt replies,
because it's you calling me, not your kid. And if
your kids showed one tenth the amount of initiative you're showing,
(35:31):
maybe i'd be interested in them. Right, So we're the
over help continues. Here are the two examples that first
came to mind. I got a call from a reporter
at Washington monthly magazine kind of a society magazine, I
think in the DC area, and they said, we're doing
an article on the fact that Washington, d c. Divorce
lawyers are seeing a huge uptick in the number of
thirty somethings who show up for a divorce consultation with
(35:55):
their parents into What do you make of that? All
had the same me. I just called you Quinn. Sorry, Oh,
I love it. It's great. Qui's my middle name, it's perfect.
So right, so I got to bring my parents and
come talk to a lawyer about the fact that I
might need a divorce. Right, Well, maybe that hold fact
that you're totally still dependent upon your parent is part
of the problem. Another example, The New York Times called
(36:17):
me the real estate section called me. They said, we
have parents who are showing up at co ops meeting
with the co op board on behalf of their adult
child quote unquote who doesn't live in New York but
wants to get a place to live in New York.
The parents are finding the place, they're meeting with the
co op board, They're doing the work. And you know,
I said, it's great when people have enough time and
(36:37):
money that they can do that, But when will that
adult child be made to figure out how to get
an apartment or a place to live on their own?
Because one day they'll have to do it for themselves.
And are we going to wait until they're fifty or
six and their own parents finally passes on and then
they literally are bewildered having to do these regular old
(37:00):
day to day tasks of adulthood. Wow? Can I a
personal question? Are both are both kids out of the
house now? Both of your kids? I have a sophomore
in college and a senior in high school. So when
the sophomore left, did you feel so triumphant to have
to have raised a person who is now like independent
(37:23):
of you or you like my mom was a disaster,
Like when we left which is the other thing, you know,
I think, like again a millennial. My mom was home
with my my brother and I. We've talked about this
a lot on the podcast, but you know, just her
choice was that was her full time job, and it
was really really interesting to watch her go through when
(37:44):
she did such a great job that she raised two
kids who were like, by we're gone. But she was like,
oh wait, wait, wait, wait, wait wait what so this
is actually feel It's a lovely question. So I, um,
this is how I felt. I turned to my usband
and I said, no one told me it would be
this hard. And I laughed, right, because here I am
the Dan who worked with all these other people's kids,
(38:06):
and I've been on the other side. I've been on
the receiving end at the university, seeing all these parent
child interactions on moving day, I thought I'd be able
to handle it, but instead I was a wreck. And
I actually wrote a piece about it about how my
own emotion just sort of bewildered me, as when I
were fighting in Ikea about does he need this pillor
or this pillar or this bookcase or this bookcase. Right,
we were there to outfit his room as many overparenting
(38:28):
people do because it's like this is our last chance
to influence his environment. And um, so I was a
wreck and unprepared for how much I would miss him.
This is the upside of how close we are to
our kids, um, in contrast to how I, as a
gen x or was raised. For example, you know when
when we show up at every game and every practice
and we know exactly what classes they're taking and who
(38:50):
all their teachers are, and we know every assignment. We're close.
There's a closeness that you know, as an emotional positive thing,
it can just really end up undermining them if we're
so close that we're living their life for them. So um,
I I found it to be a bit of a
shock when my eldest left. And I think your your
premise and that question was you know where you you know,
(39:12):
how did you feel about letting somebody go off to
be independent? I mean it begs the question was the
independent was he capable of being independentis nineteen? I think
we're still seeing Yeah, you're seeing old and he's doing
a lot of hashtag adulting and then there's a lot
of stuff he's still figuring out. Um. The other thing
I want to point out is because I think embedded
in the question is you know how we parents feel
(39:34):
about all this and are the truth of the matter
is our egos, yours, Katie mine, many people listening our
egos these days are kind of a bit too much
wrapped up in our kids existence. So when our sixteen
month old is talking, you know, more eloquently than the others,
we feel like, wow, look at my child, Look what
(39:55):
I've done? Are so stupid? The right? Okay, undergarten, that's
like a badge of honor for us. We crave the
bumper sticker for the back of our car that says
the name of the private school or the independent school
they've gotten into, or the college they've gotten into. Right,
we need that. What I'm saying is our egos. It's like,
(40:16):
so we don't want them to leave, and that's why
parents like but you know, that's why we see that.
We just saw the New York Times recently, Mom accompanying
son to the campus where he's a football recruit, and
the sun dresses up in the uniform to show that,
you know, he's signed with this school, and Mom is
wearing the football uniform of a different with the helmet right,
(40:39):
it's like get a life, Like, like get a life,
because you're not on a football team, right, not your life.
This is your kid's life, and you're actually usurping the
autonomy that he ought to have. In that moment, you're
acting as if, of course you love him, of course
you're a booster. Of course you're going to root for
him to make every yard and get every touchdown and
(40:59):
every backle Okay, but he's a football player, not you.
Stop acting like his life is yours, right. It's I
felt such a relief from your book of like, you know,
I'm a working mom and I I've had to really
dig deep when it's gotten hard, and I didn't want
to leave him or was going to miss a bunch
of you know, I was on Broadway this summer and
(41:20):
I only put him to bed one night a week
and it was really really hard. And my friends, my
support group around me and my mom were like, you know,
you're showing him what that looks like? How cool that
is that you're a woman, you're doing this and he's
important to you, but your job is also important to you.
And um, I just we talk a lot about keeping
your own self filled. Um and maybe that will help
(41:43):
with your not being as involved in your kids, but
maybe not. I don't know. Absolutely absolutely, Oh, you see
that a lot in your book, like your your own happiness,
right is just like you being a happy person, you know,
like we've talked about on Troy and episode. But like
you fill up your mask on the bear plane first
and then yeah, so that's you know that that airplane
(42:07):
metaphor works, right, Put your own oxygen mask on first
before helping others. Why Because that's the only way you
can actually be of used to others is when you're
being oxygen eated. Okay, Um, if we could model for
our kids that we take pleasure in our work, that
we take pleasure in our hard work, in our activities,
are hobbies, that we have relationships that are important to us,
(42:28):
whether it's our primary relationship or friendships or what have you,
extended things like our kids need to see that. I
think one of the reasons we have this sort of
quote unquote failed to launch problem with some millennials is
we parents of millennials. I'm not one, but older people
have made adulthood look very unattractive because all we seem
(42:48):
to do is worry constantly about children all the time,
and so we're supposed to be role modeling what a healthy,
vibrant adult life looks like and for somebody like you
and someone like me. I mean, I'm not an actress.
I'm not on Broadway. I just travel a lot with
my books. I'm constantly traveling somewhere with these books, which
is awesome. What I've got to do and what you've
got to do, and parents of all genders listening got
(43:11):
to do. When you're busy with your work, you have
to find moments to pull that kid aside, create some
special rituals, you know, so it's not just that you're
there once a week when when he's older, you know,
beyond you know, when he's five and he's seven, you know,
for you to say, we need some special mom son
time and we're gonna go, what do you want to
do and develop a ritual. I had a ritual with
(43:32):
my son where we'd go to Baskin Robbins ten minutes
away and we would read the Magic Treehouse books, which
is a great love for young kids, right and we
would read out loud. I would you know, he was
of course reading, he was like seven, he was reading
by himself. Then, but he enjoyed um that I would
read it out loud to him while he ate his
ice cream, and um, you know this is a kid
(43:56):
who doesn't enjoy Baskin Robbins. Right. Well, I was trying
not to eat the scream, of course, but I thought, well,
I'm with my son, so I can have some scream.
But if it came this thing, we called it Mommy
Sawyer time. And um, you know, I really try to
show up for my daughter in ways that really matter
to her. I mean, she and I have these shopping
It sounds so stereotypical. I'm not a shopper. I'm like,
not a shopper. I'm not that kind of gal. Okay,
(44:19):
but my daughter is. So I got to be excited
about that. And you know, we will do things where
we just dive in together to um time time together.
That it's sort of that old quality time adage. But
it is. Your kid wants to know they matter to you.
And yeah, it's great that they're going to see that
you're important in all these other ways in the world
and they're going to be proud of that. But they
don't ever want to feel that you've neglected them because
(44:42):
of that so you have to strike the right balance,
of course, and sometimes that means saying no to things
so that you can be home. Absolutely, I've busted my
ass to get home to my daughter. But she's a
dancer and she's in theater. And the times that I
have been on a plane, like God, this plane, if
it doesn't take off, I gotta I have occurred to
catch and I, you know, like the people who support
(45:02):
me in my environment, I've got speaking agent and you know,
an assistant, and I'll say in advance, okay, tomorrow, it
is essential that I get back home by this time
because Avery's got a thing. And if let's make sure
I'm on a plane that's gonna that has a few
backup options. So if that plane is not going to
take off, I got another plane that I could get on.
You know, yep. Going the extra mile to make sure
you can get home. So you don't want that child down.
(45:24):
That's important. Um, A lot of parents might say, and
this would totally be me, but all my actions are
coming from a place of love. I just love them
so much, Like that's why I'm writing his college essay.
I also think, which I love about your book, Whether
or not you are a parent, and you think you're
whatever college they're going to go to, and you know,
(45:46):
I just think it's so it's such an opportunity to
go to the place you're supposed to go to if
your parents don't get involved. For example, my mom and
I helped my brother all through school. All through school.
We wanted him to go to Boston Versity want we
wanted him to be an earth science major. We get
him in. Okay, look, this kid was not meant to
go to the school. He hates our science. Um. We
(46:08):
get him into the school and he starts failing, completely
funking out. He's not supposed to be there. Yeah, not
supposed to be there and not interested, not passionate about it.
The good thing was he ended up meeting the love
of his life who is now married to there, and
his whole life changed around and he shifted majors and
blah blah blah. But that's one example. The other is
my husband his entire life. His grandmother was the first
(46:30):
female graduating class at U n C. Chapel Hill. His
mom went there, his dad went there, his parents met there.
His brother and his wife also met at U n C.
Adam had been in tar Heels. I don't know the stuff,
but tar Heels onesies since the time he was born.
His dad is the Dean of Tourism of the school
at Temple University in Philly. They are academia. They love school,
(46:50):
they love U n C. Adam doesn't get in. It
breaks the fucking heart. Family and Adam is the Dean
of UNC calls his dad and says, I can't believe
I'm making this phone call, but your son is not
going to be going to our school. Yeah, here's the
good news. Adam want University of Maryland, got on the
(47:11):
sketch team, figured out he wanted to be an actor.
He gets to meet me because he moves to Los Angeles.
I mean it changed the entire course of his life.
He wasn't going to be an actor. He was going
to u n C for politics. He ended up University
of Maryland for politics, ended up joining a sketch team.
They were like, we think you're hilarious. You should be
a drama major. He moved to l A the day
he graduated University of Maryland. His life was forever changed
(47:34):
because he was supposed to go to University of Maryland
and the parents couldn't they didn't have the bumper sticker on.
But I think in your book it's like so much
about it. I bet they do now. They can still
get one. They all of this right, It doesn't help
to do that stuff. I wish all of us parents
(47:54):
could just talk like, let's just all decide we're not
going to do that, which is what you are so
brilliantly trying to change and shift that we find and
support whatever our children are good at and are passionate
about innately within themselves, that we're not pushing on them,
because then ultimately they will end up wherever that is
where they're supposed to go um and not have a
(48:16):
breakdown or not right. And if you can't handle that,
if there's something in you that needs your kid to
be at U n C Or Temple or whatever, the
school is right, everybody's got a school in mind for
their kids. If you need that so badly that you're
gonna basically make it happen for your kid and they're
just passively you know, along for the ride. You need
some therapy because you are basically saying I I will
(48:37):
not be okay unless my kid has that accolade or
that outcome. That's a problem in your own psychological space,
and you need to get over that. And I say
that as somebody who's a Stanford grad who met my
husband at Stanford and and worked at Stanford and gave
birth to my kids at Stanford. And I thought, of course,
my kids will go to Stanford. And I realized, oh
my god, you know, I am acting as if it's
(49:00):
the only place that matters, a place that's admitting five
percent of the people that apply. Why am I steering
my kids towards an almost certain denial, a certain failure, right,
I'm certain failure? Like why why make why? Oh? Because
I need that so that I can impress people. Oh well,
I had to do that work on myself and get
over that. I'm very proud to say my son is
at read College now. I love very liberal arts college
(49:23):
that most people haven't heard of. But it's the right
place for him. And I'm you know, I think he's there.
It's a sophomore now, and um, I'm super proud of him.
And I have to say my daughter is going to
be a duke next year, which I know your husband
will hate us. They fucking hate duke with all of
their heart and soul. I don't know about any of this,
(49:45):
but Duke was like, one last question, if you had
any any parting words. We are so lucky to get
you any parting words of wisdom. Besides, everyone, get out
and listener by this book. And I'm really not plugging
it for I'm not getting paid for this people. I
literally just fun love Julie and this book. What would
you like to part with? Okay, alright, the one thing
(50:08):
that I have to say, because you did ask a
question before. Somehow we got up on this guitar heel
thing you said. People say we do this because we
love our kids so much. Okay, Um, yes, you love
your kid and and to love your kid the best.
What you must realize is this your job as a
parent is to put yourself out of a job and
(50:28):
raise your kid to be independent of you. That's how
you win at parenting. Okay, So you love, the love
never ends, but don't let the love be smothering. Don't
let the love be so tightly attached to the kid
that the kid can't get out from under you at
all and developed the various skills they are going to
need to have to thrive out there in the world.
(50:49):
So the best way to think about this is, um,
think about how much you care about your best friend's
kid you know, or your niece or your nephew. You
love that kid. Every time they have something going on,
You're like, Wow, that's interesting. Tell me why you like that,
Tell me what that's about for you. You ask the
good questions, you take an interest, you're enthusiastic. But when
(51:10):
they say yeah, I might be flunking chemistry, you don't
personally feel like, oh I have to fix that, You're like, Okay, wow,
that sounds challenging. What are you going to do about that? Okay?
It's that loving but slightly distant approach, which is I'm here,
I care, but ultimately, this is your path. That's what
prepares that kid to craft their own path, make their
(51:31):
own way, and be successful wherever they go. Julie, I
could talk to you all day, girl. You're a dream.
I would love that. Cannot thank you enough for coming
on Katie's grib and for sharing your time and expertise,
and I I'm just such a fan. And I'm going
to go get your memoir now too. And also I'm
(51:54):
listening to Jonathan Heights book right coddling the American mind.
And he quotes you constantly, so basically be his co writers.
They do quote me all the time. If you were
interested in the memoir, Um, it's a book on race, yes,
black and biracial in a country where black lives aren't
meant to matter. And it's a very vulnerable, prose poetry
(52:16):
account of what it has been like to be black
and biracial as a fifty one year old in this America.
So it's a totally different book, but it's the heart
of that book. At the heart of the other book
is I'm interested in the problems that impede us from thriving,
and helicopter parenting is impeding a generation of kids, and
racism is of course, you know this, this centuries long
(52:38):
impediment to humans having dignity and thriving. So UM, I'd
love for you to listen to that book as well.
I did narrate that one, as that's my next traffic.
That sounds wonderful. Thank you so much, UM, with all
my hurt and soul, have a wonderful day you too,
Thank you again. Thank thank you guys so much for
(53:00):
listening to Katie's crib and be sure to check out
Shonda land dot com, where you can find every episode
of Katie's Crib, and we've got crib notes for each
episode where you can find out more about our guests
and links to some of the resources we talked about
on the podcast. And last, but not least, subscribe. We're
on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Stitcher basically like wherever you get
your podcasts. Wo
Hi, everybody, and welcome to Katie's Crib. In this episode
I'm so omitting, we're talking to Julie Liffcott Haimes. Julie
is the author of the New York Times bestseller How
to Raise an Adult, Break Free of the Overparenting Trap,
and Prepare Your Kid for Success. In this amazing book,
Julie breaks down the impact of overparenting or you know
(00:25):
what some of us would call helicopter parenting, can have
on children and what leads us as parents to do
this in the first place. The book offers helpful strategies
for avoiding the overparenting trap so we can help our
children be independent and confident as they head out into
the world. And it does. I can't even tell you
I've listened to this book on tape. It's gotten me
through every traffic jam in Los Angeles for the last um.
(00:47):
I burned through that book. You guys, run out get
it Amazon, Audible, wherever. Julie is also the author of
the book Real American, a memoir. She's a mom of
two teenagers. She spent a decade as the dean of
Freshman at Stanford University. We're so lucky to have Julie
joined us on Katie's Crib over the phone today to
share her experiences and wisdom with all of us. Hi Julie,
(01:09):
Hi Katie, thank you so much for having me. Wow,
I'm just thrilled that you're listening to my book in
l a traffic jams. Oh it is. It's an incredible
book and I feel I mean it's probably a little bit.
I mean I only have a sixteen month old, and
I think the book all the time to get it right,
my friend, I hope so, oh god, I hope so.
(01:30):
And the book speaks a lot about this is it
called what do you call like the college arms race,
or like this whole thing that's happening of like you
gotta get into the right preschool, and you got to
get into the right elementary school, and you gotta writ
into the high school that shovels you into the correct
you know, everything about being right and the best, and um,
(01:50):
the book talks so much about safety ism and this
culture we're living in where kids just really aren't pushed
out the door to sort of people were or ride
a bike to school at a certain age because it's
safe and it's important for them to learn independence. Um.
I learned so much from the book. I am very
much like you at the beginning. It touched me so much.
(02:12):
You said, I think your first kid was five weeks
old and you went to look at the nursery school
that you had always dreamed of. I did the same
thing at five weeks old, and I was like, Oh,
I am in trouble. I am an overachieving millennial who
thinks this can be done right. I'm a hard worker.
I'm going to work my ass off as a mom,
(02:32):
and I find your book to be take the pressure off.
Oh good, I'm so glad. You know I wrote this
book because I was am I jumping in here? No, no no,
please jump in jump in. Um. I so appreciate your
personal resonance. And at the end of the day, we
have been entrusted with this humbling task of trying to
(02:53):
be the adults who get to be alongside these young
people and escort them on this path to an independent adulthood.
It's a humbling task. It's awesome in the sense of
big and important, and um, we've just started taking it
so overly seriously. We're actually getting in the way of
(03:13):
our kids being able to make it along their path.
And I learned this because I was a dean at
a university working with other people's kids, and I was
railing against all of this parental involvement at the college level.
Parents wanting to talk to professors, parents wanting to review
homework before it's turned in, parents needing to know all
the time, what's going on, how's it going. I'm gonna
(03:34):
get your apartment for you. I'm going to say, I'm
gonna I'm gonna handle it. And then I had my
AHA moment, which was I came home for dinner one
night when my own kids were eight and ten. After
railing against this behavior on my campus for seven years,
I come home. I lean over my ten year old
son's plate and I began cutting his meat. And that
was the moment when I realized, holy shit, I'm gonna
(03:57):
can I say that, Oh yeah, yeah, right, yes, Holy shit,
I'm on track to be one of those parents who
will not be able to let go of her eighteen
year old because she's cutting them meat of a ten
year old. And I realized he could go to the
army at eighteen, he could go to college at eighteen,
he could have a job at eighteen. Those are the
options pretty much right? And I am under preparing him
(04:18):
for that point because I'm cutting his meat and there's
so many skills a little human has to learn between
cutting your meat and be ready for any of those
three outcomes. So that's when I got it, and I realized,
I gotta stop criticizing this whole thing and start to
understand what are we doing and why because I'm part
of it, and maybe i can be part of the
solution because I'm definitely part of the problem. Were you
(04:38):
able at that point to really woke up the next
day everything is no, Oh my gosh. I mean it
starts with the philosophical awareness that, oh my gosh, what
am I doing? I am living my child's life for him.
I'm tying his shoes too long, I'm cutting his meat
too long, I'm making sure her homework is always correct
(05:02):
and in the bag. All of these things we do
to try to help, we have to realize inside of
it in kind of an existential philosophical sense, Wait a minute,
I am basically supplanting myself in the role they're supposed
to play in their own life. This is their life.
I'm here to guide and advise, but not do it
all for them. So you've got to make the philosophical
(05:23):
switch in your head and then you can start to say, okay,
so what does that mean. Well, it means you've got
to start teaching your kids skills. From the minute your
kid can walk, they're walking away. And to us in
our melia, whether you're gen X like me or millennial
like you, you know, we're terrified by the thought of
our kids walking away, right, because we've been branded, you know,
the whole stranger danger safety. First, we were just worry
(05:46):
that at every juncture there's a disaster about to befall
our kids, and so we end up depriving them of
all of the independence building and skill building that ought
to happen slowly but surely over the course of these
eighteen years. Right. My grandmother made me so sad over
the holidays. She said, oh, I don't I don't wave
or say hi to little kids in the grocery store anymore.
(06:09):
And I was like, what, my sweet little granny in Buffalo,
New York, And She's like, oh yeah, Like I just
feel like I'm not allowed to do that and I'm
gonna get in trouble. And I'm like, oh my god like,
that is awful, And I have to admit, you know,
the first time I ever took my son out of
the country, and we were standing right off the plane
in the customs line, and every single person was grabbing
my kid, kissing his cheeks, holding his hands because he's
(06:30):
a baby and he brings joy to people. And my
immediate reaction was, oh, my god, we don't know you
go away, you can't touch my kid. And then I
took a step back and said, no, this is why
I'm traveling and showing him places, because we're supposed to
meet and see other people on how people do things,
and um it just really I've got a lot of
perspective that the stranger danger thing is real. Everyone's afraid.
(06:53):
My mom used to have this rule. If I don't
hear from you in twenty four hours, I'm going to
call the cops and I will assume you have been kidnapped.
The kidnapping thing, which you talk a lot about in
your book Coming of Age at the time when people's
faces were on Milk Carton's that was my childhood for sure,
and that we're going to be taken and actually the
statistics are not, um not, that is not the case, right, right,
(07:15):
I mean, it does happen, and that it happens at
such an infinitesimal rate it doesn't make sense to structure
every day of childhood around it. To put it in context,
a child is much more likely to die being the
passenger in a car than they are to be to
die or be harmed at the hands of a stranger,
and yet we don't construct their lives so that we
(07:37):
don't ever put them in cars. I mean, I'm talking
to you in l a, right, I know you live
my whole life, my whole life, and the Bay Area
isn't that much better. So it's a we've allowed that
fear to penetrate our minds as parents, and it actually
ends up putting us out of our minds because it
makes everything this sort of fearful life or death moment,
and so are our kids lives, and our lives are
(07:57):
incredibly anxiety written riddled as we act as if everything
is of such major consequence that we have to kind
of be there to hover over it at all times,
and this ends up harming kids. Okay, you guys, we're
gonna take a quick break and then we will be
back with more Katie's Crib. All right, you guys, I
know we're all out there trying our very best to
(08:18):
provide and say for our family. So I've been telling
you guys about this amazing money saving app called Drop
d r o P Drop easy to remember, right, Well,
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(08:39):
is link your debit or credit card to the app,
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(09:03):
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k A t i E S c r i B
will receive a five dollar credit to the Drop app
(09:25):
to choose where you want to redeem your gift card.
You'll see all the amazing stories there. It's seriously been
such a life changing out for me, you guys, so
you're welcome check it out. Now back to our episode.
Can you explain for those um listening who haven't read
your book in and recommend that you guys do. Can
you give us an overview of what you mean when
(09:46):
you say I think we've covered it, but just in case,
the overparenting, helicopter parenting, so, um, they're all sorts of
funny terms. Helicopter parents was probably the original one, but um,
snowplow parent, lawnmower parent, drone parent. You can hear the
drone right, think of just that buzzing like totally totally
(10:08):
totally handle this and swoop back out. Um anyway, so
I wanted to get behind the funny terms and figure
out what are the behaviors. And there are three kinds
of behaviors that comprise over parenting, as I call it
in my book title, um, and they are these. The
overprotective parent is the first type. This is the parent
(10:28):
who feels the world is scary and unsafe and unpredictable,
which is sort of true, and this is the parent's mistake,
and therefore I must prevent and protect at all times
instead of preparing my kid to be strong and thriving
out there. This is the parent who wants to prepare
the road for the child instead of to prepare the
child for the road. Okay, well, wants to bubble wrap
(10:49):
the kids. Every existence has to know at all times,
where is my kid, how are they doing? GPS tracking
them on technology and all that. Okay. That's the overprotective type,
which ends up raising a child who ends up raising
a child who is afraid of strangers, who doesn't know
how to be anywhere alone, who who's Who's sort of
on this leash constantly held by the parent. Okay. The
(11:11):
second type is the overdirective parent, a k a. The
tiger type, which I'm here to say is not limited
to Chinese Americans or Indian Americans or whoever you want
to limit it to, is not I've seen black folks
and white folks and Jewish people and all kinds of people.
Tiger parenting. This is the I know best what leads
to success, kid, and you will do as I say.
(11:32):
You will be a doctor, you will go into finance. Okay.
This is the parent who is certain you will be
a tennis star. You know, Andrea Agrassy's dad was a
tiger dad. You know, you will live the life I
intend for you to live. And oh, by the way,
maybe my love for you might be conditioned upon your success. Acute,
my plans for your life. Okay. And those students, those
(11:55):
young people end up, you know, at some point having
a breakdown, like God, damn it, I'm gonna have my
own life, thank you very much. Okay. The third type
is the handholder for the concierge. This is the parent
who wants to wake the kid up, keep track of
their deadlines, keep track of their belongings, bring them any
forgotten stuff. This is me, This is me, this is me.
(12:17):
And you're in Hollywood, right You're you're an actor, you
you know. I imagine in that Miliea, You've got all
kinds of people who get credits at the end of
the show for helping out right there there, to bring
you stuff and remind you of stuff and tell you
what's next. Right, children don't need that. Okay, they got
to wake their own ass. But children don't, okay, And
so this is the parent who just loves being needed
(12:40):
and useful. Okay, our kid has to remember to bring
their own stuff to school, and one of the best
ways to remember is to feel the sting of having
forgotten when they get the zero in fourth grade because
they didn't turn in their homework. There's actually no better
way to teach that brain. Oh my goodness, I need
a better plan or a plan for remember bring my homework,
(13:00):
my sporting equipment, my lunch, my coat. Okay. If the
parent always rescues, the kid's brain never learns. All the
kid's brain learns is a parent will always rescue me, which, hey,
by the way, isn't true. I mean in some ways
my messages, Hey, parents will be dead one day, so
you have to instill skills in your kids so that
they can survive when you're gone. I mean that is
the cold, hard, twitter length, tweet length truth of this. Yeah, no,
(13:25):
this is serious. But those are the three types a
person can be doing one, two, or all three. Yeah,
I'm definitely three, probably a mixture of one in three
and then I'm only in this for sixteen months, but
I got the writing of them all. I'm twoining three.
By the way, I want to make sure everyone knows
I am. Here are two and three? Oh see. I
(13:45):
I could never tell him what to do, but I
would be like, oh, you want to try this, Let's
try this and throw everything I have at this, and
then try that. And you forgot this, Let me pick
it up for you. I'll wake you up. What do
you need to eat? Like? It's just gonna be mm hmmm,
not great. Um, you've set a unique perspective not only
is a mother and a person out in the world,
but from your experience in academia, which we've touched on
(14:06):
and being the dean at Stanford UM working with college freshman,
how have you seen kids and young adults change over
the years In the years that I've been tracking this problem, UM,
which I would say started around UM became the dean
in two thousand two, wrote my first op ed on
the subject. In oh five, things got really much worse
(14:30):
with the smartphone, and oh seven I left Stanford to
go back to school to try to develop the chops
to write a book that came out in So. I've
been looking at this for a long time, and I
am not a researcher, so I haven't studied this, uh
in any empirical way. Um, but I do rely on
(14:51):
the work of psychologists who are studying the effects of
helicopter parenting. Things are getting worse more and more. It is.
It is common play now in many communities for parents
to be so involved in homework. They're kind of sort
of doing the homework sometimes. Okay, schools know it, but
they just don't know how to stop it in parents
(15:11):
and say, I have to do the homework because if
I don't do some of my kids homework, my kid
is competing in class with every other kids parents. You know.
In other words, right, so, um, kids are accustomed to parents,
um knowing everything about their lives at all times. The
researcher Gene Twangy says, gen Z, which is the generation
behind you millennials. Um, these are young people today, as
(15:34):
old as nineteen. She says, they're more likely to be
out of the house without a parent. Um, sorry, more
likely to be out of the house with a parent
than you were or gen xers were, or boomers were.
They're more likely to be inside the house with a
parent than you were or older people were. In other words,
they're never alone, and so they're adulting later, and in
(15:55):
some ways there are benefits. They're drinking later, they're driving later,
they're having sex later. They're basically attended like dogs on
a leash at all times. Okay, so they are growing
up more slowly, and while there are some benefits to that,
the risky behaviors I just mentioned, what they're not developing
alongside of this is skills like how to be home
alone and feel okay and feel like you can handle,
(16:18):
you know, things that might arise, how to how to
make a meal for yourself, how to take public trams,
hole down a job like you know, when you're a
babysitter it in your teen's like I was, like, you know,
I was hosting in a restaurant in sixteen, you know,
like I was doing stuff. That's right. So let's pause
here and say because you just made a really important
point that I don't want to overlook, which is the
(16:40):
problem we're talking about is largely a function of affluence.
Parents who have time and money on their hands, are
using it to cultivate every moment of childhood and to
constantly be there. A parent who's working class, are poor,
doesn't have the time to spend hover ring over their
(17:00):
child's every moment. Okay, so there's this wonderful irony that
I saw as dean. My students who came from what
we would call disadvantaged backgrounds um actually had a tray
in their tool kit. As I say in the book,
that they're more affluent counterparts lacked. They had a clearer
sense of self. They had a clear sense of I'm
(17:21):
I'm the one who's obligated to handle this. I've got
to think through my situation and come up with, you know, solutions.
They were more self reliant and they were more resilient. Now,
I'm not trying to romanticize poverty or struggle, but I
am here to say, if you emerge from that environment
and get to college, because you've had a great teacher,
to a great mentor too who helped see you through
(17:42):
from a difficult childhood to that for your college, you
have a set of skills your more affluent peers lack.
And that's a beautiful thing. So the question is, when
we're raising kids amid affluence and influence. How do we
instill in our kids that work ethic, that sense of
account ability and responsibility that other kids learned the hard
(18:03):
way because their childhood was harder. You know, I remember
this my dad. I mean amazingly, I went to school
for drama, which even that in it of itself, I'm
sure a lot of parents would have been like hell no. Um.
And it was amazing that he was cool with me
majoring in drama. And but the day I graduated was
(18:23):
the day. And it to even get that far was
crazy because he had supported me until I was twenty one,
which there are many people that do not get that. Um.
So I had his support financially until I was twenty one.
And my graduation day he said, good luck, you're at zero.
How amazing that you're not at a negative And um,
(18:44):
I've paid for your education, and now your rent is
due on the first every month that your apartment. Here
is your cell phone bill, and you're so lucky that
I'm going to cover your health insurance till you're twenty six.
But you're done. And I lost my it had a
panic attack. But I have to say it's the greatest
gift he gave me because he didn't have to do that.
(19:07):
He totally could have kept paying for my life. And
I could have cried and gone I was never gonna
be homeless. I could have gone home and I could
have given up. But I got three wagers in jobs
and babysitting gigs and catering gigs. And it was the
first time I had to work that hard in my life,
you know what I mean, Like it was and it
was so uh and it was really hard to be
(19:28):
in to to fight to to prove myself to be
an actor. But I have to say, I have so
many friends in their thirties, Julie whose parents are still
paying their rent. I Am not fucking kidding you. And
that is um again, such privilege speaking and not everyone
gets that, but there there, I just I can't even
(19:51):
believe that. I like, at that time, I would have
never thanked my dad. I was so like what But
it was the best lesson at twenty one, Like get
a job. You're lucky I paid for you for this long,
Like that's crazy. And I had summer jobs and I
had a little bit of savings, but you know, just
was like and now you're an adult. So, um, this
is beautiful, and it's beautiful to hear you say this
(20:13):
as a millennial. And I want to acknowledge that millennials,
many of them, graduated into the worst economy we had
seen since the Great Depression, and that set a whole
lot of people back. We're not here to bash a
whole generation. Um, No, there was no jobs for people.
It was dark. That said, if there are thirty year
olds whose parents are still paying their rent, unless it's
(20:34):
an incredibly wealthy family, they can set set up that
thirty year old, you know, to have some guaranteed income
for life once the parents are gone. Awesome, But that
that refers to like one percent or even point one
percent of the people, right, everyone else has to figure
out how to earn a living, how to pay their bills.
You get to decide how you want to earn a living.
You get to decide where you live so that the
living you earn can pay the bills. Right, cost of
(20:56):
living is really different in layer the Bay Area versus
say somewhere in Colorado where it might be more affordable,
or somewhere in New Mexico or somewhere in Texas. What
have you? Right? But You've got to make the choices
such that you can lead your own life and fend
for yourself. That's what adult ing is. It's being able
to fend for yourself. And it's not always pretty and
it's not always easy. But when you are fending, Boy,
(21:19):
doesn't it feel good After you've gotten over your you know,
anguish and anger at your dad and you started to
make your way. Oh my god, there's pride that you take.
Like I'm paying for this apartment. I'm renting an apartment.
I just made myself dinner, you know, I just got
myself on three buses to this job. Like there's a
tremendous sense of accomplishment we actually gain when we do
(21:40):
for ourselves. In contrast, when we're always held un a leash,
when someone's always handling things, we grow anxious and depressed
because essentially our own self is not doing the work
of living a life, and so the psyche knows something's
not right here. You know what's funny, I probably, looking
back on it, I bet if my dad had not
(22:02):
done that, he wouldn't want to hear this. If my
dad hadn't done that, I probably would have. You know,
I moved across the country, which was a big deal
for me as a you know, fourth generation New Yorker.
I moved to l a Um against my parents wishes,
but because I knew I could, because I had always
been paying you know, I moved at twenty five because
I had had three years under my belt paying my
(22:22):
rent and I knew I could. But if my dad
was still paying for me in New York, I don't
think I ever would have left. And then I would
have never met my husband, and I would have never
booked Scandal if I wouldn't be fan growing out right
now watched on Scandal. I can't believe it, and that's
so bad that I left. So sorry, dad, it's all
your faults anyway, Um, that's fault. So can I say
I know you? Well? Ask me your next question. I
(22:44):
have a set of a method please kids, skills that
I want to kind of get out if I could
pop please, because I want to move from this. Teach
me all the ways to like we're messing up our kids.
That's what's great about this book. There is a lot
I mean, yes, practical, How do I do this? How
do I agreise an adult who's gonna be able to
(23:06):
take care of himself, and right now, it's just about
my kid wiping his own butt. But you know, okay,
so wiping his own butt is the perfect example. Okay,
He's got to learn everything from wiping his butt to
crossing a street to earning a living, okay, And you're
supposed to teach him those things, but not do those
things for him. So the first thing I'm gonna say is,
we think in communities like yours and mind, I bet
(23:28):
in many of the communities represented by the listeners to
the podcast, we think that childhood today is about to
get him into the right preschool, in the right high school,
in the right college, like you said at the top
of the show. And we do all this enriching to
make sure they're going to look good on paper, to
impress somebody who's gonna admit them to something. And we've
totally overlooked two important things. According to the longest study
of humans ever conducted, the thing that predicts whether someone
(23:52):
is professionally successful in life is what did they do
chores as a child? Professional success in life. You want
to be successful, you got do chores or part time
job in high school? Why? Because these things teach you
to have a work ethic, roll up your sleeves, pitch
and be useful, don't wait to be served. Ask yourself,
how can I contribute my effort to making this situation better?
(24:16):
Chores or part time job? Okay, this is now my
mouth is completely a gap, and it's similar but different.
I say to everybody. Everybody should have to wait tables.
Everybody should work in the service industry. Everybody, at some
point in their life should have to serve people, whether
it's food, whether it's clothing, whatever that is. That's right.
I don't know why I believe that, but I believe that.
(24:37):
So if you did it, and you know it taught
you really valuable things to help you get ahead. And
you know, one the hard work I learned in the
service industry is the exact same hard work I learned
to try to be an actor. And I was a lawyer.
Before I was a writer and a dean. I was
a lawyer and I was a bus girl at a
restaurant called Perkins in Wisconsin, one of these twenty four
(24:58):
hour you know, rest wanes where you can eat anything
on the menu at any time to day. And I
was a bus girl, which meant I had to clean
the tables, and I had a mop and clean the
bathrooms nice hopefully, you know, I washed my hands in between.
And I'm telling you that sort of sense of what
what's the how can I go the extra mile here
so that you know, maybe my boss gives me a
slightly more elevated task. That mentality I brought into the
(25:21):
law firm when I was a young lawyer. You know,
how can I be useful? The big lawyers are doing
the important stuff. I'm the tiny little lawyer. How can
I be useful here? How can I make their task easier?
So chores? How early do we start them? And what
are they? Well? On pages this is a great book
I recommend, which I know you're familiar with, called How
to Raise an Adult And it on page one sixty
(25:42):
six to one sight is the chores list and starting
as young as two. So you got about I've got
four months. Chores are happening. Yeah, he's sixteen months. Oh no,
what is that? Terrible at math? Thank you did bad math?
I'm terrible that I dropped out of math in junior
of high school. Okay, So there's chores that for kids
(26:03):
as young as too. There in the book it's broken
down two to three, four to five, six and seven
what they can do. And you'll be astonished at what
kids at that age are supposed to be able to do.
And by the way, in many other cultures that they
do kids are doing without anyone batting an eeleft. Can
you give us like one example, because it blew my
mind in the book you said, like a ten year old,
like in Switzerland ten year olds or like baby like
(26:23):
stuff in America we would never do. Come on, I'm
fifty one and I babysat when I was ten, all right,
Like what's happened? You know what's really weird? Kids don't
babysit at that age anymore, right, because we think it's unsafe.
It's not allowed to be home alone until you hear
these horror stories about moms getting going to jail and
like getting their kids taken away from them. Be alone. Right,
(26:43):
But then there are some states that still have old
laws on the book that said, oh, you can marry
without your parents consent at sixteen. So there are states
that literally will say not you can't be home alone
till your twelve, but you can marry without concett at
six four years to kind of get it all figured out,
all right. It shows just how the past is out
of touch with the present. Okay, here's an example of
a chore um for two to three year old. Uh,
(27:06):
this is your this is the age when your child
will start to learn basic life skills. Caveat if you
let them all right, I like dressing himself or herself
with some help from you, putting their clothes in the
hamper when they undress, clearing their plate after meals. And
I know you're like, what, my two year old can't
clear their plate. Yeah, they can't. Give them a plastic plate.
Don't be feeding your two year old on china that
(27:27):
you're afraid it's going to drop to the floor and
gas utensils, and say, okay, we all clear our plates,
and your little one will learn to do it. And
the best thing is if you start young, they don't complain.
They like to be useful. It just becomes part of
the way the family works. Whereas if, like me, you
don't realize chores are important until they're like ten or twelve,
believe me, they'll be like, why what do you want
(27:49):
us to start helping I mean, we haven't been helping
you so far. Why does this matter? Okay, So chores
are are really essential. The other thing the study showed
is that happiness in life comes from from from loving
relationships with other humans. Okay, so our kids need to
be loved unconditionally at home. Not loved as a function
of how well they did on a test today or
what college they get into tomorrow, but just loved for
(28:11):
who they are, whatever their interests are. Love the heck
out of that kid. Help that kid become who they are.
Don't act like you wish your kid with someone else.
I mean, that's what the tiger type is doing. Right.
I love you if you'll go to med school. Right.
I don't love you if you're an artist. Please don't
do that, right. Okay, So they have to be loved
at home. So this unconditional love at home plus chores
is probably the foundational and food and shelter, you know,
(28:35):
the foundational things they need to experience so that they
can leave our homes and thrive out in the real world. Okay.
So now what I want to share is the fourth
step method for teaching any kid any skill. This is
on my website. People can follow up. I've got some
swag with little things that spell this out. Okay, this
is the four step method. Whatever it is, like, make
(28:55):
a meal, take public transportation, cross the street, track your
own deadlines, you know, fill out your own forms, whatever
the skill. Here's the fourth step method. First you do
it for them, Second you do it with them, Third,
you watch them do it, and fourth they can do
it completely on their own. And it's that pivotal we're
(29:16):
stuck in steps one and two if we're overparenting. We're
doing it for them okay, or with them with them,
but they're not learning because we're doing all the work.
They're just sort of they're right. Step three is the
big terrifying shift. You watch them do it. You're still there,
but they get to do it, and you have to
try not to micromanage every single piece. You're giving them
some feedback if there's anything disastrous happening. You're there to say, hey,
(29:38):
wait a minute, you know, let's turn down that step
right right, all right, but you're so you're there, and
then finally you do step three enough times you can
move to step four where your kid can cross the
street one day, not at age two, but maybe at
age seven or maybe at age ten, whatever it's appropriate.
Your neighborhood, you know, but at some point a kid
has learned across the street, and I'm must parenting fail
(30:01):
if we don't teach some of these basic things. This
is Um. Do you think, as me completely celfish and
mom to a toddler that these um, you know, I'm
not really focused on school or grades and college stuff now,
although I did look at way too many preschools. Um,
what's the overparenting trap at this stage? Is it like
(30:22):
what we talked about, like not letting him do chores
at two years old, or and those little things we
talked about, like your clothes. Here's an example, um, when
they're sticking. It's so that I'm I'm just all of
a sudden conjuring the image of my two kids at
that age, which is thank you for allowing me that
trip down memory lane, my two our nineteen and seventeen
years old. Um, so it's been a long time. But
(30:44):
here's an example. When you're a little sixteen month old
is playing with some awesome new toy that you know
Grandpa sent from New York and it's a shape s
order or I don't remember sure, right, but right there's
a shape they're supposed to put blocks into a thing
that has holes for the block. Part of you wants
to tell them exactly how to do it, you know,
(31:04):
kind of nudge the right shape to them. You know.
Part of right, you're raising your hand, right, because I
don't have the patience to like worried about that he's
not going to figure it out. No, it's like, let's
just get this. The patience is, yeah, let's get this done. Right.
That's an example like back away, shut up, yeah, yeah, yeah, stop.
(31:27):
You know, let your kids figure stuff out on his own.
You're right there, you're on the couch, maybe you're down
on the ground and you're playing with your own thing.
You don't have to be all up in it, right,
it's sort of one step removed at at at sixteen months,
two years. You know, you want to be a few
feet away, Okay, when they're five years old, you want
to be in the next room. Okay, when they're ten,
(31:50):
maybe you can be outside of the house so they
could be inside the you know, like we're constantly allowing
greater distance so that they grow comfortable without us. Yea,
they can try different things without us being there having
to handles for them. The other great thing that spoke
to me so much in your book was how you
speak to your child, getting that shape in the shape sorder,
(32:12):
when you're like, yeah, you did it. You're so special
for everything, which I'm convinced is why I'm an actor
because my parents I really had that growing up. You're
the most special, You're the greatest. That's the millennial thing, right, like,
you're the greatest, You're the most special. The world is
your oyster. You can have it all. You're gonna be
the best moment of the world, and you're gonna be
so successful and blah blah blah blah ba um, my kid,
(32:36):
I just I my I'm married to an actor. Were
very expressive and very big, and so everything is like
that was amazing. My friends are doing that too. This
is not good, right, it's not good. It's not good
in part because they really expect that life will have
that soundtrack always. So they leave your let's say you
(32:58):
talk like that for a teens and then they go
out into the real world and they're in the workplace
or the army or college, and there's nobody doing that anymore,
and so they're little psyche goes, Oh what what what?
Why am I not amazing anymore because we've we've sort
of made amazing, we've basically watered down amazing and perfect
and acted like they're going to hear those terms at
(33:19):
all times. So the enthusiasm is great. I mean, I
don't think there's anything wrong with the enthusiasm. But see
if you can use something like, um, that's a picture,
that's an awesome picture instead of you're perfect, you're amazing,
that kind of thing, you know. Yeah, I think that's right, Yes, yes, yes.
(33:42):
The problem that we're talking about with whatever age, like
this whole overparenting. I think you said in the book,
like you even see parents all the time on campus,
you would see parents all the time. How do you
think that this problem is You've touched on it a
little bit, But how do you think this problem is
translating in to the world of these millennials and these
(34:03):
these gen xer is like going on to getting jobs
or not getting jobs or what do you think is happening? Um?
I have two examples, three examples, I have nineteen examples.
I have a thousand examples. Um, in the workplace, how
this translates. Basically, if you're over parenting, you can never
stop your you're fostering a dependence on yourself right instead
(34:26):
of fostering independence. So it becomes this thing that just
reinforces itself. Well, my kids incapable because I've never talked
them anything, So now I have to continue to help
them at twelve and eighteen and twenty five and so on.
So in the workplace, if you've been over parenting all
the way through college, you're gonna over parent in the workplace.
You're gonna send out your kids, resume. Your kids going
to get a call to be offered a job, or
(34:48):
not a job, but an interview, and the kid's gonna say, what,
I don't think I applied. Well, that's because mom handled
that for you. Okay, You show up for an interview
and mom or dad is there to prep you for
the interview, not realizing that they're being observed in the
lobby of this of this business, and they can see
that this twenty two year old doesn't appear to have
the skills to prep for his or her own interview.
(35:09):
Mom or dad is there, Um, oh my god, is
this really happening. Parents are calling up emplawyers saying why
didn't you give my child child? Why didn't you give
my child a raise, why didn't you give them a
bigger bonus? And I think any employer worth their salt replies,
because it's you calling me, not your kid. And if
your kids showed one tenth the amount of initiative you're showing,
(35:31):
maybe i'd be interested in them. Right, So we're the
over help continues. Here are the two examples that first
came to mind. I got a call from a reporter
at Washington monthly magazine kind of a society magazine, I
think in the DC area, and they said, we're doing
an article on the fact that Washington, d c. Divorce
lawyers are seeing a huge uptick in the number of
thirty somethings who show up for a divorce consultation with
(35:55):
their parents into What do you make of that? All
had the same me. I just called you Quinn. Sorry, Oh,
I love it. It's great. Qui's my middle name, it's perfect.
So right, so I got to bring my parents and
come talk to a lawyer about the fact that I
might need a divorce. Right, Well, maybe that hold fact
that you're totally still dependent upon your parent is part
of the problem. Another example, The New York Times called
(36:17):
me the real estate section called me. They said, we
have parents who are showing up at co ops meeting
with the co op board on behalf of their adult
child quote unquote who doesn't live in New York but
wants to get a place to live in New York.
The parents are finding the place, they're meeting with the
co op board, They're doing the work. And you know,
I said, it's great when people have enough time and
(36:37):
money that they can do that, But when will that
adult child be made to figure out how to get
an apartment or a place to live on their own?
Because one day they'll have to do it for themselves.
And are we going to wait until they're fifty or
six and their own parents finally passes on and then
they literally are bewildered having to do these regular old
(37:00):
day to day tasks of adulthood. Wow? Can I a
personal question? Are both are both kids out of the
house now? Both of your kids? I have a sophomore
in college and a senior in high school. So when
the sophomore left, did you feel so triumphant to have
to have raised a person who is now like independent
(37:23):
of you or you like my mom was a disaster,
Like when we left which is the other thing, you know,
I think, like again a millennial. My mom was home
with my my brother and I. We've talked about this
a lot on the podcast, but you know, just her
choice was that was her full time job, and it
was really really interesting to watch her go through when
(37:44):
she did such a great job that she raised two
kids who were like, by we're gone. But she was like,
oh wait, wait, wait, wait, wait wait what so this
is actually feel It's a lovely question. So I, um,
this is how I felt. I turned to my usband
and I said, no one told me it would be
this hard. And I laughed, right, because here I am
the Dan who worked with all these other people's kids,
(38:06):
and I've been on the other side. I've been on
the receiving end at the university, seeing all these parent
child interactions on moving day, I thought I'd be able
to handle it, but instead I was a wreck. And
I actually wrote a piece about it about how my
own emotion just sort of bewildered me, as when I
were fighting in Ikea about does he need this pillor
or this pillar or this bookcase or this bookcase. Right,
we were there to outfit his room as many overparenting
(38:28):
people do because it's like this is our last chance
to influence his environment. And um, so I was a
wreck and unprepared for how much I would miss him.
This is the upside of how close we are to
our kids, um, in contrast to how I, as a
gen x or was raised. For example, you know when
when we show up at every game and every practice
and we know exactly what classes they're taking and who
(38:50):
all their teachers are, and we know every assignment. We're close.
There's a closeness that you know, as an emotional positive thing,
it can just really end up undermining them if we're
so close that we're living their life for them. So um,
I I found it to be a bit of a
shock when my eldest left. And I think your your
premise and that question was you know where you you know,
(39:12):
how did you feel about letting somebody go off to
be independent? I mean it begs the question was the
independent was he capable of being independentis nineteen? I think
we're still seeing Yeah, you're seeing old and he's doing
a lot of hashtag adulting and then there's a lot
of stuff he's still figuring out. Um. The other thing
I want to point out is because I think embedded
in the question is you know how we parents feel
(39:34):
about all this and are the truth of the matter
is our egos, yours, Katie mine, many people listening our
egos these days are kind of a bit too much
wrapped up in our kids existence. So when our sixteen
month old is talking, you know, more eloquently than the others,
we feel like, wow, look at my child, Look what
(39:55):
I've done? Are so stupid? The right? Okay, undergarten, that's
like a badge of honor for us. We crave the
bumper sticker for the back of our car that says
the name of the private school or the independent school
they've gotten into, or the college they've gotten into. Right,
we need that. What I'm saying is our egos. It's like,
(40:16):
so we don't want them to leave, and that's why
parents like but you know, that's why we see that.
We just saw the New York Times recently, Mom accompanying
son to the campus where he's a football recruit, and
the sun dresses up in the uniform to show that,
you know, he's signed with this school, and Mom is
wearing the football uniform of a different with the helmet right,
(40:39):
it's like get a life, Like, like get a life,
because you're not on a football team, right, not your life.
This is your kid's life, and you're actually usurping the
autonomy that he ought to have. In that moment, you're
acting as if, of course you love him, of course
you're a booster. Of course you're going to root for
him to make every yard and get every touchdown and
(40:59):
every backle Okay, but he's a football player, not you.
Stop acting like his life is yours, right. It's I
felt such a relief from your book of like, you know,
I'm a working mom and I I've had to really
dig deep when it's gotten hard, and I didn't want
to leave him or was going to miss a bunch
of you know, I was on Broadway this summer and
(41:20):
I only put him to bed one night a week
and it was really really hard. And my friends, my
support group around me and my mom were like, you know,
you're showing him what that looks like? How cool that
is that you're a woman, you're doing this and he's
important to you, but your job is also important to you.
And um, I just we talk a lot about keeping
your own self filled. Um and maybe that will help
(41:43):
with your not being as involved in your kids, but
maybe not. I don't know. Absolutely absolutely, Oh, you see
that a lot in your book, like your your own happiness,
right is just like you being a happy person, you know,
like we've talked about on Troy and episode. But like
you fill up your mask on the bear plane first
and then yeah, so that's you know that that airplane
(42:07):
metaphor works, right, Put your own oxygen mask on first
before helping others. Why Because that's the only way you
can actually be of used to others is when you're
being oxygen eated. Okay, Um, if we could model for
our kids that we take pleasure in our work, that
we take pleasure in our hard work, in our activities,
are hobbies, that we have relationships that are important to us,
(42:28):
whether it's our primary relationship or friendships or what have you,
extended things like our kids need to see that. I
think one of the reasons we have this sort of
quote unquote failed to launch problem with some millennials is
we parents of millennials. I'm not one, but older people
have made adulthood look very unattractive because all we seem
(42:48):
to do is worry constantly about children all the time,
and so we're supposed to be role modeling what a healthy,
vibrant adult life looks like and for somebody like you
and someone like me. I mean, I'm not an actress.
I'm not on Broadway. I just travel a lot with
my books. I'm constantly traveling somewhere with these books, which
is awesome. What I've got to do and what you've
got to do, and parents of all genders listening got
(43:11):
to do. When you're busy with your work, you have
to find moments to pull that kid aside, create some
special rituals, you know, so it's not just that you're
there once a week when when he's older, you know,
beyond you know, when he's five and he's seven, you know,
for you to say, we need some special mom son
time and we're gonna go, what do you want to
do and develop a ritual. I had a ritual with
(43:32):
my son where we'd go to Baskin Robbins ten minutes
away and we would read the Magic Treehouse books, which
is a great love for young kids, right and we
would read out loud. I would you know, he was
of course reading, he was like seven, he was reading
by himself. Then, but he enjoyed um that I would
read it out loud to him while he ate his
ice cream, and um, you know this is a kid
(43:56):
who doesn't enjoy Baskin Robbins. Right. Well, I was trying
not to eat the scream, of course, but I thought, well,
I'm with my son, so I can have some scream.
But if it came this thing, we called it Mommy
Sawyer time. And um, you know, I really try to
show up for my daughter in ways that really matter
to her. I mean, she and I have these shopping
It sounds so stereotypical. I'm not a shopper. I'm like,
not a shopper. I'm not that kind of gal. Okay,
(44:19):
but my daughter is. So I got to be excited
about that. And you know, we will do things where
we just dive in together to um time time together.
That it's sort of that old quality time adage. But
it is. Your kid wants to know they matter to you.
And yeah, it's great that they're going to see that
you're important in all these other ways in the world
and they're going to be proud of that. But they
don't ever want to feel that you've neglected them because
(44:42):
of that so you have to strike the right balance,
of course, and sometimes that means saying no to things
so that you can be home. Absolutely, I've busted my
ass to get home to my daughter. But she's a
dancer and she's in theater. And the times that I
have been on a plane, like God, this plane, if
it doesn't take off, I gotta I have occurred to
catch and I, you know, like the people who support
(45:02):
me in my environment, I've got speaking agent and you know,
an assistant, and I'll say in advance, okay, tomorrow, it
is essential that I get back home by this time
because Avery's got a thing. And if let's make sure
I'm on a plane that's gonna that has a few
backup options. So if that plane is not going to
take off, I got another plane that I could get on.
You know, yep. Going the extra mile to make sure
you can get home. So you don't want that child down.
(45:24):
That's important. Um, A lot of parents might say, and
this would totally be me, but all my actions are
coming from a place of love. I just love them
so much, Like that's why I'm writing his college essay.
I also think, which I love about your book, Whether
or not you are a parent, and you think you're
whatever college they're going to go to, and you know,
(45:46):
I just think it's so it's such an opportunity to
go to the place you're supposed to go to if
your parents don't get involved. For example, my mom and
I helped my brother all through school. All through school.
We wanted him to go to Boston Versity want we
wanted him to be an earth science major. We get
him in. Okay, look, this kid was not meant to
go to the school. He hates our science. Um. We
(46:08):
get him into the school and he starts failing, completely
funking out. He's not supposed to be there. Yeah, not
supposed to be there and not interested, not passionate about it.
The good thing was he ended up meeting the love
of his life who is now married to there, and
his whole life changed around and he shifted majors and
blah blah blah. But that's one example. The other is
my husband his entire life. His grandmother was the first
(46:30):
female graduating class at U n C. Chapel Hill. His
mom went there, his dad went there, his parents met there.
His brother and his wife also met at U n C.
Adam had been in tar Heels. I don't know the stuff,
but tar Heels onesies since the time he was born.
His dad is the Dean of Tourism of the school
at Temple University in Philly. They are academia. They love school,
(46:50):
they love U n C. Adam doesn't get in. It
breaks the fucking heart. Family and Adam is the Dean
of UNC calls his dad and says, I can't believe
I'm making this phone call, but your son is not
going to be going to our school. Yeah, here's the
good news. Adam want University of Maryland, got on the
(47:11):
sketch team, figured out he wanted to be an actor.
He gets to meet me because he moves to Los Angeles.
I mean it changed the entire course of his life.
He wasn't going to be an actor. He was going
to u n C for politics. He ended up University
of Maryland for politics, ended up joining a sketch team.
They were like, we think you're hilarious. You should be
a drama major. He moved to l A the day
he graduated University of Maryland. His life was forever changed
(47:34):
because he was supposed to go to University of Maryland
and the parents couldn't they didn't have the bumper sticker on.
But I think in your book it's like so much
about it. I bet they do now. They can still
get one. They all of this right, It doesn't help
to do that stuff. I wish all of us parents
(47:54):
could just talk like, let's just all decide we're not
going to do that, which is what you are so
brilliantly trying to change and shift that we find and
support whatever our children are good at and are passionate
about innately within themselves, that we're not pushing on them,
because then ultimately they will end up wherever that is
where they're supposed to go um and not have a
(48:16):
breakdown or not right. And if you can't handle that,
if there's something in you that needs your kid to
be at U n C Or Temple or whatever, the
school is right, everybody's got a school in mind for
their kids. If you need that so badly that you're
gonna basically make it happen for your kid and they're
just passively you know, along for the ride. You need
some therapy because you are basically saying I I will
(48:37):
not be okay unless my kid has that accolade or
that outcome. That's a problem in your own psychological space,
and you need to get over that. And I say
that as somebody who's a Stanford grad who met my
husband at Stanford and and worked at Stanford and gave
birth to my kids at Stanford. And I thought, of course,
my kids will go to Stanford. And I realized, oh
my god, you know, I am acting as if it's
(49:00):
the only place that matters, a place that's admitting five
percent of the people that apply. Why am I steering
my kids towards an almost certain denial, a certain failure, right,
I'm certain failure? Like why why make why? Oh? Because
I need that so that I can impress people. Oh well,
I had to do that work on myself and get
over that. I'm very proud to say my son is
at read College now. I love very liberal arts college
(49:23):
that most people haven't heard of. But it's the right
place for him. And I'm you know, I think he's there.
It's a sophomore now, and um, I'm super proud of him.
And I have to say my daughter is going to
be a duke next year, which I know your husband
will hate us. They fucking hate duke with all of
their heart and soul. I don't know about any of this,
(49:45):
but Duke was like, one last question, if you had
any any parting words. We are so lucky to get
you any parting words of wisdom. Besides, everyone, get out
and listener by this book. And I'm really not plugging
it for I'm not getting paid for this people. I
literally just fun love Julie and this book. What would
you like to part with? Okay, alright, the one thing
(50:08):
that I have to say, because you did ask a
question before. Somehow we got up on this guitar heel
thing you said. People say we do this because we
love our kids so much. Okay, Um, yes, you love
your kid and and to love your kid the best.
What you must realize is this your job as a
parent is to put yourself out of a job and
(50:28):
raise your kid to be independent of you. That's how
you win at parenting. Okay, So you love, the love
never ends, but don't let the love be smothering. Don't
let the love be so tightly attached to the kid
that the kid can't get out from under you at
all and developed the various skills they are going to
need to have to thrive out there in the world.
(50:49):
So the best way to think about this is, um,
think about how much you care about your best friend's
kid you know, or your niece or your nephew. You
love that kid. Every time they have something going on,
You're like, Wow, that's interesting. Tell me why you like that,
Tell me what that's about for you. You ask the
good questions, you take an interest, you're enthusiastic. But when
(51:10):
they say yeah, I might be flunking chemistry, you don't
personally feel like, oh I have to fix that, You're like, Okay, wow,
that sounds challenging. What are you going to do about that? Okay?
It's that loving but slightly distant approach, which is I'm here,
I care, but ultimately, this is your path. That's what
prepares that kid to craft their own path, make their
(51:31):
own way, and be successful wherever they go. Julie, I
could talk to you all day, girl. You're a dream.
I would love that. Cannot thank you enough for coming
on Katie's grib and for sharing your time and expertise,
and I I'm just such a fan. And I'm going
to go get your memoir now too. And also I'm
(51:54):
listening to Jonathan Heights book right coddling the American mind.
And he quotes you constantly, so basically be his co writers.
They do quote me all the time. If you were
interested in the memoir, Um, it's a book on race, yes,
black and biracial in a country where black lives aren't
meant to matter. And it's a very vulnerable, prose poetry
(52:16):
account of what it has been like to be black
and biracial as a fifty one year old in this America.
So it's a totally different book, but it's the heart
of that book. At the heart of the other book
is I'm interested in the problems that impede us from thriving,
and helicopter parenting is impeding a generation of kids, and
racism is of course, you know this, this centuries long
(52:38):
impediment to humans having dignity and thriving. So UM, I'd
love for you to listen to that book as well.
I did narrate that one, as that's my next traffic.
That sounds wonderful. Thank you so much, UM, with all
my hurt and soul, have a wonderful day you too,
Thank you again. Thank thank you guys so much for
(53:00):
listening to Katie's crib and be sure to check out
Shonda land dot com, where you can find every episode
of Katie's Crib, and we've got crib notes for each
episode where you can find out more about our guests
and links to some of the resources we talked about
on the podcast. And last, but not least, subscribe. We're
on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Stitcher basically like wherever you get
your podcasts. Wo
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