Laura Jane Grace Punk Politics & Rock 'n Roll Ghosts

Political punk activist Laura Jane Grace from Against Me tells Kesha her creepiest ghost stories behind some of the songs on her new album. They dive deep into the philosophy of punk, Jeffrey Dahmer, and the creepiest subject of all....the culture of hate on the internet.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Kesha and the Creepies is a production of I Heart
Radio trying to tap into everything that's happening right now
as a chance for change. Like if what we're talking
about as a society and what you're hearing repeated in
the news all the time is how much we need
to change, how much change there needs to be or whatever.
And you know, given the circumstances were in facing a
global pandemic, facing all this uncertainty, if that isn't like

(00:24):
a time to actually change and have some kind of
personal accountability moment, I don't really know when is Welcome

(00:45):
back to Kesha and the Creepies today. I am very
excited to welcome my next guest, Laura Jane Grace. How
are you? And fantastic Kesha. Thank you for having me,
Thank you for coming on here. I'm such a fan
of you and your music. Your new record is called

(01:07):
Stay Alive, which we're all just trying to do exactly now.
And because I funked up the name of the song,
it's called the swimming Pool Song. Yeah. I always find
like naming a song to be kind of arbitrary, like
an afterthought, like Okay, I finished it. It has to
be titled something now on the record, So what do
you call it? And usually you like defer to what
is the thing that repeats during the chorus, But sometimes

(01:30):
I feel like that's a cop out, So I don't know.
I got into the habit, like U, inspired by a
love of Tom Petty, where he would call things like
the Apartment song. So the reason that like initially intrigued
me for you to come on this podcast is I
have such a connection with that particular swimming pool. I
believe you're talking about the swimming pool at the Rave

(01:51):
in Milwaukee. Yes, exactly right. Okay, so that swimming pool
for those listening, there's a swimming pool in the basement
of a music venue in Milwaukee, Wisconsin, and I the
first time I ever went there was to see this
band called The Darkness. Then is a fawless record. I

(02:14):
think so too. It's such a good record. So I
take a Greyhound bus from Nashville to Milwaukee with my friend.
We don't have a hotel room. We end up seeing
The Darkness. I catch a wristband of the singers. I'm
so excited. We end up staying at this woman's hotel

(02:35):
room that we met at the show. In the middle
of the night. She's so drunk she walks over to
my boots and starts taking a piss into my boot,
thinking it's the toilet done. Yeah, thank god. I was
just be and ever since then, that was one of
my first times ever going to an out of town venue.

(02:56):
I was like sixteen years old, fast four. I've played
the ray of multiple times and I'm absolutely obsessed with
the venue. And I don't know if you're aware of
the connection between that venue and Jeffrey Dahmer. I am
for the It's the hotel across the street is one
of the hotels that Dohmer stayed in where they killed

(03:18):
one of their victims, um so and and to explain
the rave a little better too, it's like it's an
old Masonic lodge that's been there for like how like
a hundred years or something like that. That is multiple levels,
Like there's the biggest venues on the top floor, then
there's the middle floor, the and then there's the the
ground level, and then there's the basement level. Which I've

(03:40):
been playing there since like two thousand three or something
like that, and you know, it's gotten nicer over the years,
but it's always been this big, empty feeling no matter
how many people are in there, like cold feeling. Place
is super vibi, super creepy. And you know, it used
to be that the downstairs wasn't the backs stage the

(04:00):
dressing room, but they've done it up nicer and nicer.
And when we first started playing there, you could just
go into the pool and explore and go like, I'll
crawl around everywhere. And since they've closed off more and
more and more of it. But the last time I
went there, it was funny because they had someone who
was like, do you want to tour of the pool afterwards?
And we're like okay, um, and they like brought us
down there and they're all like pointing it everything out

(04:21):
and it's like, yeah, I know, ship man, are they
coming here? For fucking twenty years, we've explored this place
many times over. It was funny how things had changed though.
Well now all of a sudden, I didn't know the
pool was like a hot commodity. I just got down
there and we always take pictures and we signed the
pool and it did they take you into the underground tunnels? Yes,
we went into the underground tunnels and the under ground

(04:43):
tunnels totally get like the Nightmare on Elm Street, Freddy
Krueger vibe in there, right, yeah, yeah, And it's amazing.
If you're exploring it just like one or two people together,
then it's like super creepy. Um. But the pool itself,
my understanding is that maybe someone might have accidentally fallen
into it. There's no water in it anymore. It's an
Olympic sized swimming pool. But also, oh, sorry to backtrack

(05:05):
a little, to add one more. One more thing to
the Raves history that I feel like it's important to
touch on is that it's I believe the second to
last place that Buddy Holly played at. Oh I didn't
know that, and I'm obsessed with the Rave. Yeah, I
had no idea. There's such a rich history in that building.
You can feel it when you walk into place. Oh,
it's the creepiest. It's It's impressive though, because like obviously

(05:27):
you know that building was not built to be a
rock and roll venue. It's this you know, massive complex
and really when you're in those individual venues, like you
can't tell there's another show going on there, like these
little worlds you enter into, you know, it's so at
odds with with the history of what it comes from,
being a Masonic lodge and everything like that. Um, so

(05:49):
it's really an indescribable place if you've never never been
there for before. But I'm fascinated with places like that,
and like the idea of that, of like a place
being built as something and then being repurposed, and like
the conflict between the history and the present that that's
there then well and the energy that remains. I was
just talking to a parapsychologist before I spoke to you,

(06:12):
and we were talking about how just like if being
psychic exists, and energy and telepathy and all of these
things that we have names for, but really they just
could be a manifestation of our personal energy. But I
think the one thing I can't deny is we all
have an energy. You can feel an energy even through

(06:33):
a zoom call, which I know you're not a fan of.
I'm not either, Like I would much rather be doing
this in person, because I feel like you can feel
people's energy, But even over a stupid fucking zoom call,
I can feel your energy, And I wonder the cumulation
of all of the energy that that building has seen

(06:53):
just must be insane. But to me, like speaking to that, um.
Places so times can have an energy that like supersedes
people's energy. Like I don't think that the rave and
the building across the street and the history of and
the feeling that you have when you're there has to
do with any one person. It's something about the place,

(07:15):
like totally. And I feel like that repeats with with
certain venues and and like the history of buildings and
everything where You'll be like, what was it about this
place that has you know, has made the significant events
continue to happen here to continue to draw people here? Um?
You know, was it like a happening or what is it? Um?
And I'm fascinated by things like that. You know me too,

(07:37):
Like to me, I'm like, is it a vortex? There's
so many different places that just have such strange occurrences
happening all the time, and I don't understand. I'm opening
my mind up to all this multidimensional thought and just
trying to understand all the things that people think there
might be. But maybe this is it. And so that's
kind of why I started this podcast, is to bullshit

(07:58):
with people who I respect and who have imaginative or
different perspectives on what life is. And I know we
were texting about kind of just be like nihilists dressed
up in rainbows, like a nihilist dressed up in rainbows,
but dressed in all black, actually rainbows and the inside
for you. And so today I'm actually dressed in all

(08:19):
lack too. I don't know, I didn't even mean to,
But is this all there is? Versus reincarnation, versus the afterlife,
or versus heaven or hell. I'm just curious if you
want to talk about it, your spirituality and your belief
in the supernatural. Sure, I'm happy to talk about those things. Yeah,

(08:43):
would you describe yourself as spiritual or religious person? Um?
I have a lot of conflict around it. Where I was,
you know, brought up in a Catholic family on both sides,
Roman Catholic and Irish Catholic and uh, but at the
same time, like by parents who didn't really necessarily have
a strict adherence to going to the church. We we
traveled a lot of as a military brat. Um, so

(09:06):
like we go sporadically. But nonetheless I got that healthy
dose of Catholic guilt, right, so I have that too.
We share that affliction. So over time you know, you
become an adult, and I I like to consider myself
an atheist, but at the same time, I carry that
Catholic guilt, and I carry a sense of curiosity, and

(09:28):
I don't pretend to know everything you know, And I
like reading about the fantastical. I like understanding things or
trying to understand things that are like out of the
ordinary um, and I like thinking that there's mystery in
the world, still our mystery in the universe. So I
don't know, you know, like I'm I'll believe things you know,

(09:49):
and I'll go down pass um. Well, I completely feel
you on There are days I wake up where I'm
just like, this is it, And that's when I'm kind
of like a little more or in my one would
call it depressing, but it might just be being realistic.
And then there are other days they wake up and
just feel like there's rainbows shooting out of my ass

(10:10):
and I just can't even believe. When I woke up
to the news that Trump did not win this election,
there was a rainbow in the sky and I was like,
it's just too good. Like I read that you believe
he's the Antichrist, And that has been the running conversation
and our household for the past, while like, genuinely, honestly,

(10:35):
there are some things that line up biblically that are weird,
but let me let me talk to that for a
second or a second because it was funny, I did
like a Rolling Stone interview, and I leaned a little
too hard into that whole, like Trump is the anti
Christ thing, and afterwards I was like, jeez, I need
to like back off that a little bit, but like
I meant it, you know, specifically coming from an atheist
viewpoint and specifically talking about arc types where if you

(10:59):
look at religion, you know, in the history of religions,
there are these major archetypes that repeat throughout religions, right,
so like not Christ as like you know, our Lord
and Savior, but Christ archetype you I believe in, you know,
like Christ is an archetype. And so if Christ as
an archetype is real, like the anti Christ as an

(11:20):
archetype is also real. And if you're talking about what
Christ actually was and not you know what the majority
of Christians will talk about what Christianity is then or
anything like that. But if you really examine who Christ
was and if you really examine who Donald Trump is.
Donald Trump, you have to is like the opposite of Christ.
So the anti Christ as an archetype, not as some

(11:43):
kind of you know, uh Arnold Schwarzenegger movie End of
Days type anti Christ. But you know that's good clarification.
But I think you might actually be the anti Christ.
But you were saying, like, you love the magic of
the universe, and sometimes you get caught up in believing
different things. But you think probably at heart you think
you're an atheist or you're just open. I don't know.

(12:06):
I I guess I don't know how am I defining that? Like,
I do not believe that Jesus Christ is our Lord
and savior, right, not a Christian. I don't believe that
I know any of the answers. I don't believe that
any of the books out there that you could read
holds the entire truth. I believe there's truths in them,
and that there's worthwhile things to learn through some religions.
But I also believe that religion is like the source

(12:29):
of you know, how much pain and suffering in the
history of the world. Um, So I I have a
fear of any organized group. I have a fear of
like um clubs, gangs, anything like that, which the church
is usually a part of. But do I believe in
the mystical, Yes? Do I believe in the fantastic? Yes?
Do I believe in magic A d percent you know, like,

(12:51):
and I believe um that. I just don't know it
all and I'm still learning. That's beautiful to be able
to sit in the feeling of not knowing. I find
that a very uncomfortable feeling, like I just like need
to know things. And immortality versus mortality, and the point
of life, the afterlife, extraterrestrial life, things like that just

(13:14):
fascinate me. Which is why it brought me to having
a podcast about it, is because I wanted to talk
to people about their views of it, and I found
myself walking away every time loving a new perspective I've
gotten and also completely questioning what my perspective was an
hour and a half earlier. So I'm trying to get

(13:34):
comfortable in the place of being like, I just don't know.
I'm open, I'm open for business, I'm open for thought,
but I just don't know, and I don't know if
I ever will. So talking about venues, have you ever
been to the Town Ballroom in Buffalo, New York. I
don't know if I have. So the Town Ballroom has
been there for like again a hundred years. Um. Back

(13:55):
in the day, it's where like Frank Sinatra, Sammy Davis Jr.
People like that used to play a and um it
was a speakeasy. And in the basement of it, there's
all these tunnels that used to connect to buildings across
the street or whatever running through underneath Buffalo and you
can still play there. It's an awesome place and you
can go down into those tunnels and there are legitimately haunted.

(14:18):
So the first time we went down there, like someone
from the venue took us down and it's showing us
around and there's like all these rooms and then there's
this long tunnel and there's like a big safe right
next to the entrance of the tunnel and they're like, hey,
before you go in, you know, like set a dollar
in there or whatever. And you're like, okay, you know
you're playing along, set a dollar in there. And you
go to the end of this tunnel where there's like

(14:38):
rooms that shoot off from it, and it's pitch black,
just like so scary, and you get the end of it,
and there's an old bathroom and it's all busted up,
like the urinals are all smashed to bits, the toilet's
all smashed. So that first time we went down there,
we went into the back like we smoked a joint whatever,
and then Um, you know, played the show. Sounds like
the worst place to smoke a joint ever. Oh, it's

(14:59):
so creepy, and we were like daring each other, like, hey,
someone stayed down here alone, you know, see if you
feel the ghost or whatever. Um, And it was scary,
legitimately scary, but nothing happened. So the next time we
went back, Um, the band we were on tour with,
I was like, yeah, yeah, I'll show you. I'll show
you down there. I'll be the tour guide this time.
You know, I got the spiel. Last time I went
down there, was showing them around, took to them to

(15:20):
the end to the bathroom, like all the way at
the end of this hallway. And as we're coming back,
I turned around and I saw a little boy just
run in front of me, like the midst of a
little boy, the shape and form of a little boy.
And I turned just stone cold. All the hairs on
my neck stood up, and I got the hell out

(15:41):
of the basement as quick as my god, so that
you like saw not an actual little boy, but a
little boy ghost a little boy. It was the ghost
of a boy. It was ad like, I know what
I saw, and that that was the first time i've
I think I've legitimately seen a ghost. But that was
a moment where I'm like, I have no idea how
to explain it. I know the majority of like the

(16:02):
people in my band or like my friends hate hearing
me tell that story because they think I'm totally full
of it. But at the same time, I know what
I saw, and you know what you saw, and you know,
like afterwards, after everyone else had gotten no one else
saw it when we were down there, but after we
had all gotten out of the basement, like, I went
back down there and I sat at the like the
mouth of the or the opening of the tunnel, and

(16:23):
I sat there and I was like, I just want
to be friends with whatever you are. And I had
like some playing cards that I had found a couple
of weeks earlier that I was holding on too, and
I was like, I want to leave these here for you,
And I was like trying to talk to appease the
ghost or whatever communicate in some way. I got this
overall feeling of like leave, leave, now, get out of here.
So I did. I just got out of there. I left.

(16:45):
I probably would do. Damn, what do I mean, little kid?
You brought him? As? I feel like there was more there,
you know. So that's an example of where I'm coming from,
you know, of like how how I view things. I
can't explaining that, Like I don't know if I can
explain that as like that that was a ghost with
consciousness or that was more of like an echo of

(17:06):
a memory. But it felt like there was an energy
there and it felt like that energy was communicating in
some way or like aware or could be you know,
felt or or change was still in flux. And I
feel like I've had a lot of experiences like that
at venues to varying degrees and and just like in
life too. So the swimming Pool song is off of

(17:28):
Stay Alive. Everybody go check it out. This came out
at the beginning of Quarantine. It came out on October one,
actually released the digital first, and then like the vinyl
and c D and we did a cassette actually too,
for it. Um uh, that comes out like in a
week or two, so it's already out, just like on
streaming and everything. I figured there was like no reason
to wait, um you know right now, like the usual

(17:53):
like lead up and build up to releasing an album,
the traditional way of like releasing singles and then announcing
tours and stuff like that. There's no tours to announce.
Why not just think outside of the box and go
ahead and get it out there. Yeah, And I wonder
if it will ever go back to what it was,
because I think I held that hope for a while
that oh, this will like pass and maybe things will

(18:16):
go back to normal. But I'm starting to realize that
this might just be a part of a new normal
that we're going to have to build upon. So if
that's the case, then I think I have to I
really don't get along with technology, and I really have
had a lot of pain from it. Whenever I go
onto anything where people can communicate behind the mask of

(18:40):
a fake name and don't have to be responsible for
what they're saying, I find it has been a really
painful relationship. It's like abusive. So I'm trying to mend
that relationship, right now it's wild because like you know,
on the one time, one hand, like sometimes I'll take
a cynical view of social media and off like that

(19:00):
where I'm like, this is also shallow, nothing of its real. Um,
you know, it's also fake, etcetera, etcetera, etcetera. UM. And
then other times I'll have happenings from it that have
such very real effects in the world or in my life,
you know, like run ins or connections, um, that I'll
be like, well, this is undeniably real. This actually you know,

(19:21):
it's completely Um, it has effect, it's there's nothing fake
about it, you know. Um. But people are generally terrible online.
I think that's the worst part, is just like the
non responsibility for what you say and hurting people. But

(19:41):
I think that as a public figure, as you would
probably know, people feel really comfortable saying it when they're
not in the same room with you, room with somebody. Sure,
totally transgender people in general, you know, like people are beautiful,
brutal like towards trench gender people online and it's oftentimes

(20:02):
you know, like I don't know, people take an attitude
that they wouldn't take in real life. You know, on
the street there's a dis human connection where you start
to feel like a thing, a product, or a reflection
of what they're not accomplishing or what they can't face
in themselves. In my opinion, just hate has it feels
like it's this great American pastime now, like hating on

(20:25):
the internet is like a new hobby for a lot
of people, and it's not really a creepy subject matter,
But in my mind it is a little creepy because
it's like its own dimension. Well, I can relate to that,
you know. I'll tell you A couple of weeks ago, Um,
I saw like one of those clickbait articles that was
like the CIA to classify as articles saying that they've

(20:46):
confirmed we're living in an energy hologram and that manifestation
is real. And I was like, well, you know, I
mean that you've clicked on that too. I was like,
would I want to yea search it? I mean, I
was like, I would probably download these files if the
CIA d classified them and they were classified for any reason,
like that sounds really important. I need to have a

(21:07):
physical copy of this before they change something. So I
printed them out and I have them them both on
my desk in the other room, and you know, like
reading about that where it's like it seems so fantastical,
where like the CIA is telling you, like, yes, manifation,
manifestation is real. We're living in an all energy hologram.
And then if you think about that, like it compares

(21:28):
in to the ramifications of like social media and like
what it means to have a bunch of people just
viewing hate NonStop or or negative energy. Um, if we're
indeed living in all energy holograms, wild, you know, yeah,
maybe I need to find other places that are more
positive energy than necessarily the hateful energy. But sometimes you

(21:49):
just accidentally, at least for myself, I'll be like looking
up a show and I'll just see something about myself
that I have no interest in reading or seeing, and
all of a sudden, I'm like dragged into this weird
dark place again. But I do kind of feel like
we are living in a hologram. Do you remember did
you ever watch him in the Holograms? Yeah? And actually

(22:10):
that that reboot remake movie or whatever that Juliet looked
it was really good. I really it was in the ending.
I was in the very ending, like after the credits.
That was the first time I've ever been in, like
a movie of any sort. That's not true. I'm gonna
tell you something that I've never told anyone. Oh no,

(22:31):
this is really embarrassing. I'm about to tell you some
ship that I've never told the world. When I was
like seven years old, my mom decided it would be
a really good idea. What okay he he's saying. I
was like three, I was somewhere in between three and stuff,
and I'm really bad at the time. Okay, so I'm
like somewhere as a young person. I don't recall it.

(22:52):
There's no memory of this, but my mom decided that
it would be a really good idea for me to
pretend fart in a movie called Fart, the movie that
you can only find where can you even find it?
It's like, it's the worst thing you've ever seen in

(23:14):
your life. I don't recommend anyone looking it up. I
don't recommend anyone looking ever watching it. It's the worst.
It's just like a two hour long fart joke movie.
But my mom got she was in a band like
late eighties, and they were like, we'll pay you a
couple hundred dollars if you write a theme song for
a movie that is entirely about farts. So she decided

(23:38):
to offer me up to be an extra in Fart
the movie. So that was the first time I was
in a movie. Now, the second time I was in
a feature film would be at the very end of
Gem in the Hollogrounds and I had like neon green hair.
That's all I remember, I said, like one line. But

(23:59):
I remember loving the cartoon when I was little. Yeah,
I want to ask you about, like The Misfits, The Damned,
horror and death often seem to go hand in hand
with punk rock and being like a huge part of
punk rock and amazing front woman. How does horror and

(24:20):
punk rock go so well together? Well, I think it
seems like it's a natural extension of dressing up, you know,
like of like, I don't know, making yourself stand out,
like I think I'm thinking specifically of like The Damned
and like the look Dave Vaney and had, which was
totally like some strange vampire you know. But but um,

(24:41):
like The Damned. For me, the best show I've ever
seen was The Damned in at a place called the
State Theater in St. Pete, Florida, and they were incredible.
Captain Sensible out there with a broken leg foot and
a leg in a cast, wearing a dress, playing guitar
with a beer can for most of the show. Dave
Vanny and like look like nineties Arabano with like huge

(25:03):
sunglasses and like a shark sins suit, just like throwing
the microphone back and forth. Um but I don't know,
you know, the like the the sub genres connect, like
the goths scene and the punk scene, and it's like
they're not far away from each other. It's just like
one degree here, one degree there or whatever. You know,
the love of the color black is shared by goths

(25:24):
and anarchists alike. Um but, uh but I don't, I
don't know, you know, like I was definitely more into
the Damned than I was ever into the Misfits. Um
but I came around on the Misfits. But you know,
the Misfits have a strange separation where like, you know,
there's the visual to the Misfits, but you don't even
need the visual, like regardless, they just have great songs,

(25:47):
the really great songs. And Danzig is one of a kind.
You know. I only go so deep when it comes
to like vibing on horror movies and stuff like that.
I'm not like really knowledgeable about it, you know. I
can't like go that in depth on it. Like I
have my favorites and I enjoy it, but I don't know.
It's never been a d percent my thing. I don't
have like a super crazy DVD collection or something like that.

(26:07):
You know. Oh really, I thought maybe you would like
know about all the creepiest Crawleys kind of movies. But
I see, for me, I'm a basic bitch that The
Shining is still my favorite scary movie of all time
because it's just it feels like the inside of my brain,
The Shining is fantastic. I went, I stayed a couple
of years back. I went and stayed at the Stanley Hotel,

(26:29):
which is the hotel that Stephen King stayed at while
they were writing The Shining. Is that the one they
based it on? Yeah, well it's the one where there's
a made for TV remake they did of The Shining.
Um maybe in the early two thousand's. Um that does
not start Jack Nicholson or whatever, but that was shot
at the Stanley. The Stanley is a hotel in Sties Park, Colorado,

(26:52):
and that's where Stephen King stayed while writing it, and
that's where they shot the remake, but it's not where
they shot the the the actual Shining movie. Okay, So
my mom when I was little, aside from putting me
in movies about farts, she also took me to the
hotel that The Shining is based on the overlook, Right,
that's sort of overlook, but not the actual, not that

(27:14):
one they shot it at. So we may have stayed
in the same place. Is that the same place? It's
where Stephen King stayed and he stayed in that room
or whatever, room two thirteen or I forget what the
room to thirty nine, I don't know seven trying to
remember all the rooms because I remember at the at
the hotel across from the Rave where Jeffrey Dahmer murdered
believe his second victim. What you've showing me something? Okay? Um,

(27:41):
that room was five oh seven, lots of weird ship
with the sevens. I don't know. I thought six was
the devil number of that. See, Like you know, I
pay attention to that stuff like that. I'll get into
astrology and things like that to a reasonable extent. But
but I find that, like I work much better, like

(28:01):
in feeling connected and in any kind of psychic way.
If I'm not paying attention and if I'm not trying
to look for signs or look for patterns or whatever whatever,
if I can just fall into the flow, I usually
feel like I'll have more more occurrences like that happen.
You know. Did you stop smoking weed during like this year?
I did in April? Yeah, on four twenty, I had

(28:24):
like made thee I had made the resolution or whatever.
On New Year's Eve, we played in Denver, and on stage,
I was like, I'm gonna quit smoking weed until Donald
Trump is out of office. Um, wait are you? Are
you back in there? And that's in the game right
now again, we're waiting until he actually leaves you. Um.

(28:45):
So it took me a second because then like the
reality of that was that after the show, I woke
up and I was still invent Denver, and I was like, well,
I'm gonna smoke all this weed I still have. But
I did then stick to it on on April and
I quit. Um. But in general, I just like, I
don't know, you know, I'm trying to tap into everything
that's happening right now as a chance for change, Like
if what we're talking about as a society and what

(29:07):
you're hearing repeated in the news all the time is
how much we need to change, how much change there
needs to be or whatever. And you know, given the
circumstances were in facing a global pandemic, um, facing all
this uncertainty, if that isn't like a time to actually
change and to make some kind of like have some
kind of personal accountability moment. I don't really know when is.

(29:29):
And you know, for me, like I've been in a
cycle for the past twenty years of like you go
on tour, you come back, you have a little bit
of time to digest, you go on tour again, or
it's time to make a record again, or you know
you're moving, moving, moving, a little time for reflection And
right now is the first time in like twenty years
that I've had any kind of time for reflection like that.
Um to really like decompress and just take it all

(29:50):
in and reset and try to figure out where we're
all going or what what the plan is? You know.
UM you said like you have trouble when you know
you can't control things or or whatever. UM, And uh,
I feel similarly like being in this void right now
where so much is uncertain that uh, you know, trying
to then at least grasp yourself and and find what

(30:12):
is within your control has been calming to me. The
same your journey of coming out as transgender, being a
rock band, being a front woman, and putting out Transgender
Dysmorphia Blues. I mean, was that an easy thing for
you to feel like a weight lifted off of your shoulders?
Or was it terrifying? Was it both? Yeah? It was

(30:36):
it was terrifying. Um, I guess, like for the backstory
for anybody watching or listening to this who don't know me. Um,
I came out as transgender in like two thousand and twelve,
and I've I've played in a band caught against me
since I was seventeen years old. Um, I'm forty now,
and so I came out when I was like thirty two.
I had already been you know, I was already signed

(30:57):
to a major label. I was already like an established
musician or whatever. So I came out very much in
the in the spotlight. And Um, shortly after coming out,
like two years after, released a record called Transgender Dysphor
Your Blues, and then uh, from there, you know, spent
the last like six years touring around the world and
and UM also released a memoir in there, and UM
have continued making records and everything, but but coming out

(31:20):
publicly was was terrifying in a lot of ways, and
coming out with a record around it. I don't know,
it's you know, I'm I'm the type of person who,
UM I've realized like, uh, I'm very accustomed to stress,
and I kind of create a lot of my own stress. UM.
So you know, coming out was one pressure in and
of itself, right, but then releasing a record after that,

(31:42):
you know, and having that much attention on you or whatever. Um,
you know, like I asked of that, Like I did
that myself, putting out a record. UM. So I'm not
trying to complain about anything or whatever. Overall, people have
been really accepting of me and been really really supportive
and understanding, and it feels really gratifying to feel like
I've reached a lot of people with my story and
maybe like open their eyes up to UM the transgender experience,

(32:06):
because I do like the transgender experience. Like it's a record, UM,
maybe a box set, but I do think that things
are still important to talk about, you know, very much though,
and obviously, like if you look at the election results
with the country as divided as it is, you know,
I think sometimes we lose sight of the fact that
while internally culturally, uh, most pop culture is very left

(32:27):
leaning and um, transgender people have become a part of
the conversation. But like in a very real world way
when it comes to being a transgender person walking down
the street, like pop culture doesn't doesn't really like save
you if you're in a hard spot, you know, or
help you out in those ways. Um, So there is
a chasm, a divide between like, you know, what we
perceive in the media and what is actually happening out

(32:48):
in the world and educating people talking about it, normalizing,
you know, bringing humanity to something that maybe taboo or
may have been like uh, you know, something that before
couldn't be talked about, is so important and continues to
be really like when it comes to normalizing transgender people
or whatever, like it's just only begun, you know, and

(33:08):
there's so much more work to do. So I'm always
happy to talk about like my experiences. I never pretend
to have any of the answers or anything like that
I can only really speak to what my truth has
been where I've been, you know, what I've experienced. But
I'm always happy to you know. Yeah, I just thank
you for sharing. And I was gonna say, though, Kesha,
I was going to say though, like in regards to
like quarantine stuff, you know, and and anxieties including smoking

(33:32):
weed and everything like that, you know, that feeling of
like being in like I I felt guilt because after
everything went down, I actually found myself very like grounded
feeling and actually felt kind of better than I had
felt in years where I'm so used to operating in
like high stress situations where I have something terrible kind
of hanging over my head having grown up, whether that's

(33:53):
with like court charges or like fucking bullshit lawsuits or
whatever type of ship like that, that perpetual stay of
like fight or flight or of being in defense. You know,
um that Like there was a certain about element of
when the when the pendemic hit and being quarantined at
home where I relaxed, where I just felt like, oh
Jesus Christ, like all there's usual coping mechanisms I have to,

(34:15):
like us to to get by to deal with the stress.
I can just put aside right now, and I found that,
like I found it really calming and kind of like
the you know, the circumstances of my life for the
past twenty years actually like benefited in me me in
those ways, you know. Really See, there are definitely sides,
and I have found sides where I'm like, well, I

(34:37):
didn't know I needed to slow down. Like I have
been swimming with my head barely above water since TikTok
first came out in two thousand eight or two thou nine,
Like it's just been like trying to keep up, like
the video of the shrimp on the treadmill, Like I'm
just trying to stay with it, you know what I mean.
And when this happened, it just felt so weird to

(35:01):
not feel panicked and like because I'm just so used
to being late for something because I'm late for something
else and I haven't gotten enough sleep and I have
to like eat on the way, and did I say
something stupid in that interview that's going to affect this
deal on that? And is your underwear showing? And at

(35:22):
the same time, like it's just so many things that
trigger this feeling of like whatever, if it stresses you,
at it stresses you out, like like for me, this
is this may sounds stupid, but being trans and like
navigating continually the issue of like what fucking bathroom you're
going to use in a public situation, right to then
be in a situation where you're like, ha ha, motherfucker's

(35:43):
no one's going to a restaurant. I don't even have
to learning about that. Well, I am really sorry you
ever did. I do have to in certain states still
worry about it. You burnt your birth certificate in wasn't
in North Carolina or North Carolina? Yeah, that was like
they had this bill HP to the bathroom bill or whatever. Yeah,

(36:04):
that's such a bullshit. It is bullshit. That's so punk
rock and it probably makes your life really hard to
get Like cart, I guess you don't need your birth
she said, what do you need your birth certificate for?
I guess. I mean, I guess that's what people were like.
They were like, oh my god, you brought your birth certificate.
I was like, yeah, I had to ask my mom
for it. I don't know when the last time i've
certificate was suck it for my birth certificate too. In

(36:30):
the name of something noble, get I don't think anybody
would care for me, but no, I've I read that
and I was like, God, you're so punk rock, that's
so cool. And then I just went down a rabbit
hole of reading about the origins of punk and what
it really means and being a punk What does that
mean to you? To me, it's inseparable from the experiences

(36:50):
I've had, you know at this point, UM, and the
values that I've learned from it, Like the way I
live my life. Everything has been shaped by that. Whether
that's like the d I Y mentality of you do
it yourself, no one else is going to do it
for you. If you want to be a musician, if
you want to be heard, you know it's up to you,

(37:11):
Like UM, not waiting for someone else to do it,
to treating people with kindness. You don't need to funk
people over to survive, to UM trying to you know,
think globally at locally. Like all the punk slogans you
can think of, all the cliches. For me, has had
like real life meaning and translates to real life experience.
And in many ways it's meant you know, to never

(37:33):
stop questioning, to always ask questions, to always question authority,
to to continue to challenge power structures and status quoes
and and not just settle for the way something is.
But I've identified with the movement and the ideology for
such a long time. At this point, like I just
I feel unseparable from it. And I know that's like

(37:56):
one of those cliche questions where it's like, well, what
does punk mean to you? But I want to take
it seriously, you know, I want to like acknowledge that
like punk has had like just a massive influence on
my life, and um, and not just speaking about music,
right also the politics. I find the politics to be
inseparable from the music. If they if if the music
doesn't have politics to it, and if uh, they aren't

(38:18):
fucking good politics, and it's not very fucking punk. But um,
it's you know, like the music to me. You know,
you can always get into that argument of what is
what isn't punk, and I will take a really long
view of it and and think of like all the
different sounds that have equated to punk rock from since
it started. But I really identify with the ideology about it,

(38:40):
you know, about thinking for yourself, about questioning authority, about
being an individual, and those lessons have led me to
meet people, to travel the world to you know, fulfill
all of my wildest desires, and I'm forever thankful for it.
And I really see it's like greater connection to the
art art world, you know, to the history of art

(39:01):
in fitting in as like an artistic movement similar to
data or surrealism or whatever, and it's an extension of
all that that you can trace back. I feel like
in my heart that's where I always like, I was
such a punk little kid, and it was always grandparents
would say it as it was a negative thing, and

(39:24):
then it made me want to be like, yeah, punk.
And I remember there was a show specifically that changed
the course of my history. I was like in high school,
questioning my sexuality. I thought I was maybe a sexual
Where I went to school, there was a lot of
like blatant racism happening and Confederate flags flying, and I

(39:46):
was like, okay, wow, I'm just not attracted to any
of this. And then I made some girlfriends and I
was like, well, I'm I'm attracted to you. So I
just it was a confusing time for me because us
trying to figure out the sexuality side of my self.
And then one day I opened a door and there

(40:08):
was this guy. Sorry, my current boyfriend's in the room,
but you can just check out, um. But I opened
the door and there was this guy. It was just
kind of like this soulmate, beautiful, magical. One of those moments.
He was in a band called Party Cannon and they
were a super punk band, and I went to go
see them, and everyone in the band they were all

(40:30):
guys wearing dresses, shooting off fireworks, singing about politics, and
that was like the introduction because of Stephen. I then
went and he was like, Oh, I'm going to see
a movie about the Minute Man, and then I was like, Okay,
I'm going and so that was my introduction. It was
my my sexual quest turned into then like finding punk

(40:52):
rock music. And right after they got off stage, playing
like the nearliest loudest ship, set off fireworks, s and
m gear like. It was the craziest thing I've ever
seen in a barn. I thought the place is going
to burn down. It was insane. And the second their
music came off, there was a DJ started playing Madonna,

(41:13):
and all of the same people that were just like
living for their music started dancing to Madonna. And it
made me feel like punk was a spirit, a spirit
that and like an energy they just can't be fucked with,
like something that's inside of you. That's like I can
relate that to place of origin. If you want to
go down this ye please please? Um okay. So the

(41:35):
first ever punk band, the first band referred to as
a punk band ever in the press, was a band
called question Mark and the Mysterians who were from Michigan
and Madonna is from Bay City, Michigan. From Michigan, maybe
there's an energetic vortex in Michigan somewhere, I think. So,

(41:58):
that's crazy. Did they know each other, Like, is there
any interaction? I don't think so. But they both came
from like well, no, they're they're both from the same
city or whatever. There's this what's the name of the book.
I think it's called Madonna Land. I'll have to look
it up. That talks about Bay City, Michigan and the
music history there and how Madonna is like unloved by

(42:19):
the city. She was basically snubbed because of some interview
that she did um where she said that Base City
was like a stinky town when it is like there's
a plant there or something in some kind of mill
or something like that. But um, you know, like it's Madonna,
and you think that the city would have like a
sign that says like Madonna, you know, like that's a

(42:40):
selling point, brings some tourists and they part right right exactly,
you know, Um, but they will not they will not
acknowledge Madonna's from there like that there's no sign or
anything like that. So it's just the whole book talks
about Madonna, and it talks about question Mark and the
Mysteriens and how they're from this. You know, nowhere's Villa
play is in Michigan and what it's like they're um.

(43:04):
But so those things are connected, and you know, I
always saw, like I guess in a lot of ways,
Madonna was kind of an early introduction to punk in
ways that I didn't even realize and then translated into
my life connections I had where you know, Madonna is
probably my first musical memory is seeing the Material Girl video,
so very like you know, early like desperately seeking Susan's style.

(43:27):
Madonna like she had a punk element to her style.
And Madonna was signed by seymour Stein to Sire Records.
Sire Records was the label that signed the Ramons. Seymour
Stein signed the Ramones. Like all these scenes were connected,
and um, that's that's I think what you realize after
you really get into music and you get into punk

(43:48):
and like, um, I don't know, you realize how connected
it all is and how like certain fashion trends play
off of each other, you know, and and uh, what
influences what or whatever? But anyways, I'm on a tangent,
no please. It's so fascinating because you think of bands
like Fugazi, where it's everything is kept affordable, and then

(44:08):
there's Vivian Westwood, which is obviously high fashion but definitely
is the punk aesthetic. Wouldn't you say, well, it's tied
to it. Yeah, it's the punk aesthetic. It's the classic
like English punk aesthetic Westwood, right, you know, and all
the sex pistol scene and stuff like that. But I
like that. You know, what keeps punk relevant is the
continued um reinvention of itself and questioning of itself and

(44:31):
tearing down of itself. You know, so you had like again,
question Mark and the Mysterians were verifiably the first band
who ever been referred to as a punk band, right, um,
do are they connected to the sex Pistols other than that?
Not really? Um, the Ramons connection to the punk to
sex Pistols. If you look at the Ramons compared to
the sex Pistols, and even like stylistically, you wouldn't immediately

(44:53):
assume they were connected. So there were differences. It was
just all influenced and playing off of each other and
the sex Sols. You know, they were one of the
first bands that attracted me to punk rock. But they
definitely were coming from a more nihilistic, you know, live fast, young,
sid vicious type of approach, which spoke to me when
I was a really young teen and when I lived
in a place that I never thought I would escape from,

(45:15):
and I thought, well, I'll be dead by fucking twenty
seven if I'm lucky to make it that long. You know,
because you were in Florida, right, Yeah, South Florida, which
just you know is a cultural void. There was nothing
happening in South Florida. It was not a youth friendly environment. Um.
Lots of drugs, lots of violence, lots of like just
total class differences and just a messed up, unique place,

(45:37):
beautiful place, but um, regardless, especially then, it was just
very culturally isolated, so that, you know, and and getting
beat up a lot. Like bands that were about violence
and nihilism like that like spoke to me. But I
had like a political awakening when I was like fourteen
years old, got beat up by the cops, got arrested,
charged as an adult, whole ordeal or whatever, and it
politicized me. And then you get into a different element

(45:58):
of punk rock, you go down the element the path
of like the clash or crass and like you get
into the really political stuff. And for me as a
teen who was definitely closeted but at the same time
closet in a way where I didn't have words to
describe myself. I didn't know the word transgender. I couldn't
tell you that I was transgendered because I just didn't
know it. But still having a knowledge of like I

(46:20):
don't fit in, you know, I don't know where I belong, um,
but I do not fit in with the majority of
the kids that I see around me. And there's something
about myself that I know, even if I don't have
words for it, that um that I know makes me
an outcast, you know. So punk offered refuge to that,
but the more political side of that that actually speaks
to being anti you know, anti homophobic, anti transphobic, anti racist,

(46:44):
like anti classist, all those things like that is what
like pulled me in and kept me there. Um, those
those like really affirmal things like the sex pistols and
the all the that's just like such surface appeal of punk. Um,
and there's no longitivity to it. There's nothing lasting obviously,
you know, live fast, young and you have a band
like Fugazi though who really you know, like when it

(47:06):
comes down to it, like the artistic choices they made
for themselves, um, which were moral choices like really gave
their career you know life. It made them last much
longer than they would have if they had taken like
the quick root of signing of selling out, you know
or something like that. Um. So there's just I don't know,

(47:27):
there's a lot of lessons there. There's a lot of
you know, things that you can glean off of that
of like being true to yourself and the benefits that
you'll actually receive from that. And it's sometimes hard to
do that, you know, Like in the title of your book,
I assume that you have a particular reason you put
the word sell out, but I've been called a sellout

(47:48):
by the very guy that introduced me to the Minutemen.
It's like, oh, you're a sellout, and it broke my
heart because I liked pop music and I was like,
but I'm not selling and my soul. And I've heard
you speak on it before, just like major label versus small,
smaller label, or putting things out yourself. And when you

(48:09):
make that jump, um, when you put out a new
wave that was our first record at Warner Sire. Yeah,
with a major label. Well, I guess, like the thing,
the thing about it is that it's like you know,
it is staying true to yourself. And having learned that
lesson from Punk of like think for yourself, stay true
to yourself, and then being in a position where me personally,

(48:32):
I knew something about myself that I did not know
how to express or communicate to other people, being trans right,
and so I was having this completely different experience than
other people were having, and the choices that I made
were influenced by the experience that I was having. I
was thinking for myself, like any record label I signed to,
any made any decision like that was made from my knowledge,

(48:54):
my perspective, not someone else's perspective or someone else's thoughts
on what I should do with my life. I was
thinking for myself, you know, so to be in a
situation where you're called to sell out for thinking for yourself,
to me, it was always just like fuck you. You
don't know where I'm coming from, you don't know anything.
You have no right to like have an opinion of
my life, and you know, just funck off. Part of

(49:17):
the history of our band was for years, every every
label we signed to, we were called sellouts, and there
was just a whole row of that, and it all
came down to bullshit punk politics that didn't really have
anything to do with being punk at all. You know.
It's like being punk versus the policy is of being punk.
And it's like you're saying, it's question everything, and I

(49:37):
would take that, even including myself and my decisions I've made.
People don't know I made those decisions, and I made
some good ones that I made way more really really
bad ones. But like at the time, exactly, we're all
just human, and I feel like without the bad decision making,
there's so many lessons I wouldn't have learned. There was

(49:58):
a quote I read that you and jan j because
I performed with John Jett. She's a couple of years ago.
She's great and you toured with John Jett, right, Um,
we've played a number of shows here. Yeah, okay, cool
and um, looks we'd like a champ go for her. God,
I wish I had that kind of like whish I
didn't just have anxiety attacks outsiders amongst outsiders. And I

(50:22):
just wanted to tell you that I complete, like, like,
my heart has never felt so attached to words like
That's how I have felt my entire experience in music,
even and music was for outsiders. And then every time
I've gone to an awards show and I'm sitting next
to the most fabulous people and I'm dressed in fabulous things,

(50:46):
but I just feel like so much of an outsider,
no matter worries stick me anyways, None of that's creepy.
And if you were a ghost, what would your style
of haunting be? If I was a ghost, I would
haunt a hotel specifically. Um, I think you have one
in particular that you would haunt. Um, one in particular. No,

(51:09):
but I'd want to be in Australia haunted Australian. I
just want to go to Australia really right now. Ya um,
But I think it'd be cool to haunt a hotel
just because then you would be continually getting new people
to haunt and mess with, you know, it wouldn't You
wouldn't be stuck with the same people, because then what
have you got like a beetlejuice type situation where you

(51:31):
really didn't like the people that you were stuck haunting
and you had to watch them like going and rearranging
your house or whatever. You know. So a hotel that's
the way, Or it'd be cool. A haunted tour bus too,
haunted tour bus, you would be good. All of these
options were great. Well, you are a haunted swimming pool
you were at some point this year for a brief

(51:52):
moment in time. Yes, I like relate so much to
that feeling. If you had a cult, I have to
like preface this, Okay. I sometimes feel like as a
musician we kind of do have like a cult following.
That's what it's called. Just saying. But if you had
a cult, what would your manifesto be and would there
be a dress code? And if so, what would that
dress code be if I had a call, I know

(52:13):
that for the dress code, that Adidas Sambas would be
the shoes that everyone had to wear. I think they're
just the classic Adidas like soccer shoes, looking at three
stripes whatever. Black, pretty nondescript. But I feel like, you know,
the key to a successful CALT is the aesthetic, and
I think starting with proper footwear is good. So we'd

(52:35):
go with the Adidas and then we'd go all black.
You know, it just be all black. And I think
that people would appreciate that in the cult because it
really just streamlines decision making in the morning when you
wake up, what do I wear? You wear all black? Right? Um?
And then I think as um, you know, a manifesto
or whatever. We would definitely want our own land. Um.

(52:55):
I don't think we'd be about the guns or anything
like that, but we'd want our own land and we
just want to be left alone and be able to
where where in the world Australia. Australia would be great. Yeah, yeah,
I mean there's places in the outback right where like
you can really just whatever goes. Yes, it can get
pretty creepy. Is there anything you're super superstitious about I

(53:18):
don't like to ride escalators. I don't like to stand
on escalators. And I'll tell you Kesha. I don't know
exactly where this came from, but to me, for some reason,
it got in my head in relating like to the
multiverse and string theory, that if you choose to ride
on an escalator, it is somehow like just like in

(53:40):
a small way, shifting you to a different timeline. That's
a timeline that's based on um laziness in some way
of just like it is. And I thought you were
going to go to like the shoes string. Literally, have
you ever got your shoes stuck in an escalator? No,
but that's terrible, and you know that's a danger. But
so I don't I don't like to to write escalators.

(54:02):
I'd like to walk upstairs. If I have the option,
I will walk up the stairs. Okay, what about stairs
versus elevator. I'll take the stairs as well. I got
I had an experience one time at south By Southwest
actually where I was stuck in an elevator with um
twenty three people for forty five minutes. We had to
be rescued by the fire department. It was terrible, claustrophobic. Um,
but also kind of fun looking back now, But I

(54:25):
still get a little nervous in elevators. That sounds like
a nightmare. With twenty something people, Holy sh it, we
were like partying and we thought it'd be funny. I
don't know there was cops involved. There was a pizza
delivery guy. It was usually pretty good. Cops always scare me,
so I don't know that all sounds elevators Now, I
don't know how I feel about it. Um. Would you

(54:47):
rather be abducted by aliens or sleep in a hunted
house alone for one night? Um? I'd want to be
abducted by aliens, but I'd want them to be abducting me,
not to like experiment on me, but abducting me to
choose me, like a, hey, you're coming with us, there's
something else we've got to show you. Yet you're the
one we've been watching. You proved yourself. Let's get out

(55:09):
of here, okay. And I'd be like, thank you, thank you.
Maybe this is where I belong. Oh my god. I
have a song called Spaceship that's about that, because I'm
just like I just am not made for this planet. Apparently,
I don't know where, but I'm here ready when you
are so sad? Um, what do you think happens when
we die? Or do you not know? Well? I don't

(55:31):
know for certain, but I don't think it's the end.
I feel like that there has to be something more
to it. I I can't explain what that is. I
don't think that life is meaningless. I think that there's
meaning for it. And I think that eventually you do
get to understand things that you don't. So you're not
a total nihilist. No, not not at all. That's like

(55:56):
so heartwarming, because I like I feel the same way.
Like I really I do think that at some point
our consciousness will let us know what's going on. We
just can't see it yet. Yeah. If you could be
haunted by anyone, who would it be? Um? I don't know.
I kind of believe that I go through periods of

(56:17):
time being haunted by certain people. Um in ways like
do you know who the marquessa Luisa Casati is? Well,
I know the name, but I don't know who that is.
She was amused, Let's say, uh she was uh, you
know bourgeois. Um came from money Italian late eighteen hundreds

(56:39):
early nineteen hundreds used to throw these fantastic parties at
our palazzo in Venice, and uh lived in what became
the Goggenheim there um and was painted by you know,
all these famous portrait painters and photographers took her photo
and she just was known for her parties, but eventually
died in obscurity around World War two, living in a

(57:01):
flat in London. And I became obsessed with her story
to the point where like, you know, whatever pictures I
could find of her, like uh, paintings, whatever, you know,
UM would buy them online prince and have a collection
of them framed, and would read whatever books I could
about her life. When and visited her grave in Brompton

(57:22):
Cemetery in England, you know, I had a picnic by
myself at her grave and Uh, in a ways it
felt like choosing to be haunted by someone you know, yeah, yeah,
but at the same time also carrying someone's thought around
with you. UM felt like being haunted by a past
that you never were a part of in a strange way.
But then at the same time, like you know, there

(57:44):
is a separation of it not being like uncontrollable haunting,
So I like haunting like that. I like kind of
becoming enraptured by uh, figures from the past and doing
sounds like she's amused, Yeah exactly. Yeah. Well, and the
the idea that she you know, she was always seeking
a more reality and she did find a form of immortality,
and uh her as a muse continues to exist. You know.

(58:06):
Aren't we all seeking immortality through making art? Or is
that just me? Yeah? I think to some extent, you know,
artists do like hope to conquer death in that way. Yeah,
And I think the way that you will, um is
yet to be and imagined by you in so many
different ways. I think about that, Like I was thinking
about that recently in regards to Vang Go um and

(58:27):
how like, um, you know what van Go's life was,
living in poverty, um, you know, selling paintings for like
you know, giving them away basically, and then the fantastic
future we live in now where there's like hot air
balloon festivals with van Go paintings. So there I saw
like a parade of people you know, painted like van
Go paintings, walking down in frames, walking down the street. Um.

(58:50):
And how that those were things that van Go could
have never imagined, you know that, never have predicted. And
so I love that life um transforms itself in those
ways and gets you to places you never thought would happen.
I love that. Okay, that's a beautiful sentiment to end on.
You never know where this ship is going to take you.
Stay creepy. Thank you so much. This is Laura Jane Grace.

(59:13):
And before you go, is there anything you would like
for people to read or listen to from you or
a website or an Instagram or anything like that. Well,
you can follow me on Instagram. Let's just at Grace
and okay, and I will follow you, kesha. Um. But
other than you know you mentioned, I have a record
out better than that. No, just everyone, please, you know,
stay alive and stay sane, and I hope that we

(59:35):
all get through this mess we're in right now, um
soon and we get back to some of the things
that we all love so much, like live music, you know, yes,
and haunted venues, traveling talk, creating new haunts. All right,
thank you so much. Is such a pleasure, pleasure a
smart thank you, Kesha, appreciate it. Un