Court Report 6: Went Thru It

The trial will go on, but the show's over. In King Slime's final episode, New York Times reporter Joe Coscarelli helps recap the proceedings and break down the cultural impact of Hip Hop's longest and wildest court case.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:02):
King Slime is a production of iHeart Polocasts and Heirloom Media.
I'm Christina Lee and I'm George Cheedy and this is
King Slime.

Speaker 2 (00:20):
We're coming to you with our last episode, right, and
it's a bittersweet, but we're gonna make it good because
we're here with the whys and powerful Joe Coscarelli, who
writes about hip hop for The New York Times, Joe,
how are you?

Speaker 3 (00:37):
Hey?

Speaker 4 (00:37):
Thanks for having me. I don't think I've ever been
described as powerful, but I'll take it. No.

Speaker 1 (00:42):
I mean here, we're all about first, we're all about reporting.
You know, that's really evergreen. And of course we're joined
by executive producer Tommy Andres. We'd be remiss not to
introduce it.

Speaker 3 (00:51):
Hey, guys, cheers to the last one. Huh yeah, I.

Speaker 1 (00:54):
Mean this is I mean, this is such an interesting conundrum,
right because there is still so much trial left. I
would say when I hear first gave us this deal,
they maybe didn't anticipate how much trial there would still
be by the end of all this. But you know,
long story short, there's no end in sight, and so
the financials didn't really work out and to where our

(01:15):
ongoing coverage can't keep going on forever. So our goal
with this episode is to not only just bring you
up to speed of what's been happening, do a quick
touch on that, but then also just to like, you know,
take a bigger picture perspective on what the overall effects
are going to be. And so Joe obviously is a
perfect guest for that being Culture reported The New York Times.
As you mentioned, George, he wrote an entire book on

(01:37):
Atlanta's hip hop scene, Rap Capital, and Atlanta Story. And
if you remember, in the very beginning of this show,
you were one of our very first guests, so we're
so honored to have you once again.

Speaker 4 (01:48):
Thanks. I mean, it's sort of sadly the podcast is
like a microcosm for the trial in itself, and that
it's taking so long, that all these things are happening
and following by the wayside, and like you know, it
could be like the longest trial podcast ever if you
guys have covered through the burden, so you might you
might be here in like twenty twenty six doing the

(02:09):
same thing.

Speaker 3 (02:10):
I mean, we started making the show two years ago,
like it's been two years already, and the trial could
go till they said twenty twenty seven.

Speaker 4 (02:19):
I think did we I think we might have taped
our first interview for the first episode in which it
would have been January twenty three or February.

Speaker 2 (02:27):
Yeah, right, I think so.

Speaker 3 (02:28):
Yeah, it's wild.

Speaker 2 (02:31):
I note in passing the passing of OJ Simpson, Oh
my god. And I'm mentioning that because it was a
lengthy trial that had a lot of media attention, and
from time to time this trial gets compared.

Speaker 3 (02:45):
To that Trial of the Century. Well it was nine months.
We talked about that. Actually they might hit the cutting
room floor. But that trial is only nine months long.
Now the trial is Century is only nie months long.
And here we are.

Speaker 2 (02:55):
This trial is going to be longer than the O. J.
Simpson trial. And the media ronment then, like the OJ
Simpson trial launched sort of cable news law stuff, like
the twenty four hour news cycle hit with the OJ
Simpson case. And I've mentioned this before, this trial has

(03:15):
been this social media kind of thing where clips circulate
on Instagram, you know, and it's it's become the most
important trial of all of these other sort of wrap
trials that have been happening, partly because it's nuts and
partly because it's a it reflects this the media environment

(03:38):
that we're in.

Speaker 1 (03:39):
I know, trying to keep up with the demand has
been an absolute doozy. I've definitely felt susceptible to I
don't even want to call it like the twenty four
hour news cycle anymore because somehow that doesn't accurately capture
the pacing of everything, but it certainly we certainly, I
guess on my end, I should say I don't want
to speak on behalf of just Tommy and George, but
I certainly felt press to like meet the demand for

(04:02):
any sort of insight, any sort of clip, any sort
of like takeaway that was going to catch people's attention
of this trial.

Speaker 4 (04:09):
And yet, on the flip side, like I would say,
this trial also represents its media moment, like as a
counter to something like the O. J. Simpson trial, which
was such a like monocultures like geist thing where everybody
was paying attention to the same thing. Whereas I feel
like this trial, both because of its length and because
of the sort of fractured nature of media and music
and popular culture, is like a little bit underrated in

(04:31):
terms of how crazy it is. Like the people like
us who have been following it from since the indictment
or before we're all in. But then most people, I
feel like, just have like a passing like, oh, like
even someone like Young Thug isn't as famous as you
would have been if he was Young Thug in the nineties,
you know, and so they're sort of like, oh, I
know vaguely there's a rap around trial. It's like both
such a complicated and long lasting case that I feel like, yeah,

(04:55):
it's like it's you know, there's there's a chance people
gather back around for the verdict whenever that is. But
I do feel like it's sort of like most things
in news and media, just like floats by most people
whenever that is.

Speaker 3 (05:09):
It is crazy how people like I people will ask
me what I do these days or whatever. I'll meet
somebody to party, whatever, And it's amazing the percentage of
people that still have no idea who Young Thug is.
When I started like, oh, it sort of sounds familiar
or whatever. You haven't heard of this person? I mean,
obviously that strikes me as strange because we've been focusing
on it so intensely for two years. But I, you know,

(05:31):
I think you're right, like the hip hop spotlight is
very bright, but the broader sort of news cycle is
so swallowed up with all these other huge stories. I
do feel like this one is sort of getting like
cast aside in a lot of ways. Even it's not
even the most you know, focused on Rico trial right now,
you know, it's like, yeah, there's a lot going on.

Speaker 1 (05:50):
Well, speaking of a lot going on, I'm going to
try to make this as succinct as possible because it's
been a couple of weeks since we last caught up
with you guys, and I'm going to do my best
to very sinkly talk about what's been going on since
we lasted a court report. So we, I think have
finally heard an end to testimony regarding the Red Nissan

(06:11):
incident that happened in May twenty thirteen, or not only
Adrian Bean completed his testimony, but we finally heard from
investigator David Quinn. I would say that was one takeaway.
The other takeaway is regarding an incident that isn't even
part of the indictment. It was a part of what
has been called a robbery where essentially there's so much

(06:33):
we could get into this, but a woman who was
identified as a Bennett says that she heard a knock
on her door one night, looked and saw that it
was friends of her baby's father, Young Thug Walter DK Murphy,
and then Young Thug's brother let him in, but then
all of a sudden gets a gun held to her
head and she gets robbed of a couple possessions.

Speaker 5 (06:51):
Do you recall telling the police that you opened the
door and let thug inside your home? And do you
call telling the police that you turned your back on
Thug Thug's brother and a person you call DKA to
walk into the kitchen to make your baby a bottle?

(07:13):
Do you recall telling the police that when you went
to the kitchen, Thug's brother put a silver nine millimeter
to the back of your head.

Speaker 1 (07:22):
And then on top of that, there has been some
I guess admonishing on Judge Glanville's and where he's talking
about like, hey, this trial is going on for way
too long. We need to take some hardcore measures to
make sure that this trial is expeding as possible for
the sake of the jury. So he's talked about earlier
star times. He's also addressed timely discovery and the need

(07:44):
for all of that. And then finally, the person who's
currently taken the stand is someone who is one of
the co founders of YSL, and that will be Walter
DK Murphy. He's expected to continue taking the stand after
we record this episode, so potentially days after. So it's
a lot, George, as you're paying attention to all this,

(08:05):
like what's sticking out to you?

Speaker 2 (08:06):
So let's start with this the judge. It has become
entirely clear to everybody, including apparently the judge now that
this is taking too long.

Speaker 1 (08:17):
We can't be talking about like multiple super Bowls, like
that's just crossing a line madness.

Speaker 2 (08:21):
And I So he's issued an order and a fairly
stern order, and the questions whether or not he's actually
going to hold to the order to try to speed
things up, he's essentially limiting the kind of objections and
how those objections are going to be held, and when
a jury will be brought in or taken away, and

(08:43):
how much time will be taken from the from the
court for extraneous stuff, and to hold court on Saturdays
and Sundays if necessary, which is extraordinary and difficult defensive
because you've got to have sheriff's deputies, a bunch of

(09:03):
sheriff deputies in the courtroom. You're committing ten other people
to over time in a sheriff's office that doesn't have
extra bodies to give to it. So he issues this
order and then still continues with the daily delays, like

(09:25):
court was supposed to be starting at eight thirty on
the dot, and it's not. It's nine. It's nine thirty.
Comfort breaks that are supposed to be ten minutes turned
into half an hour or longer. And the objections that
he'sbjecting to are still flowing more or less in the
same way, and he's getting testy about that.

Speaker 6 (09:48):
All right, and I guess you'll all be working this
weekend then, because this is exactly what I told you
was going to be a problem.

Speaker 4 (09:56):
You bring this stuff up.

Speaker 6 (09:57):
I got a jury sitting in the box, and you
got a witness you're probably gonna have days of examination with.

Speaker 3 (10:04):
Yeah, he and Steel have had some really harsh back
and forths. That's been Uh, it's been tense.

Speaker 7 (10:09):
You tell in front of the jury how I'm prepared.
I am, And let me tell you something, I am
not unprepared. I don't appreciate the court telling me that,
and you don't. And I asked you tell the jury
that you were wrong when you when you admonished me
last time, you said you wouldn't do that.

Speaker 4 (10:25):
This is the second time. And you know what it
does to me. I don't care.

Speaker 7 (10:29):
I'm hurt because you're a court but I really don't care.

Speaker 2 (10:32):
But what does it do to mister Williams, mister Steele.

Speaker 6 (10:35):
I'm not trying to personally insult you or hurt your feelings?

Speaker 4 (10:38):
Okay again, who are you?

Speaker 3 (10:39):
Are?

Speaker 2 (10:39):
A grown professional advocate?

Speaker 1 (10:42):
Yeah, and that's adding to I guess, like, thanks for
reminding me, Tommy. There was a motion to disqualify Daadan
Love from the whole proceedings. That's how testing things have
just got in court in general. And of course like
that was denied, but still that kind of speaks to
like the acrimonious nature that has really been bogging down
the trial.

Speaker 2 (10:59):
Right, And I don't see that changing until Fanni Willis
puts the hammer down. And I think that moment is
coming if this is still going on in the way
it is when the Trump case is also absorbing the
attention of the court and of the Sheriff's office and

(11:20):
everybody else. I think she's going to make a trioge decision.

Speaker 3 (11:25):
Yeah, it's been interesting to see. I mean, with Glanville
getting so frustrated. We've talked about this a little bit
in our preparation for this episode. It's just like, he's
really where the buck stops, right, I mean, he's the
conductor of the orchestra here, So for him to get
so mad at how slow things are, it's like, bro, like,

(11:46):
what are you doing here? This is your show. You're
the one running this. So if I'm a jur and
I'm sitting in there and this is happening, and I'm
just like, oh great, I get to give up my
weekends now too, Awesome. I'm gonna be here till super
Bowl twenty six, twenty seven or whatever the hell of
a date is that they can keep saying this thing
is going to go too and I got to come
in on weekends, Like get out of here.

Speaker 2 (12:05):
That number for like twenty twenty seven didn't come out
of nowhere. It's simply taking a look at how many
witnesses have been heard and how long each witnesses take,
and then looking at the one hundred and sixty more
witnesses to go in that order. Judge Gladville also like
there was an attachment for all of the witnesses yet

(12:26):
to come, and we're actually starting to edge into the
evidence that if you've been a listener to this podcast,
would be very interesting to you. Kenneth Copeland is on
the witness list, probably fifteen or twenty names down. He's
only listed by initials KC, but it's got to be him.

(12:49):
Some of the investigators that we've spoken with on like
Investigator Gaither is coming.

Speaker 1 (12:55):
Up, Marsa riverto Marsa.

Speaker 2 (12:57):
Viverrito is coming up that we've spoken to that are
coming up soon. And when you do, when they come in,
you're going to start hearing some more of the evidence
that's much more substantial and much more relevant than a
twenty thirteen car chase.

Speaker 3 (13:14):
Then, yeah, than nine weeks of red Nissan testimony, right exactly.

Speaker 4 (13:18):
But I was going to say, like, no matter how
many thirty minute breaks get shortened to ten minutes, or
even how many weekends you come in, like the amount
of time we've spent so far on essentially witnesses sort
of superfluous to the main facts of the case. Plus however,
many witnesses are to come, you know, one hundred and

(13:38):
fifty plus. As George said, like, this trial is going
to take forever, no matter how many how much fat
is cut from it, you know what I mean, like
or this jury is in for many many more months realistically.

Speaker 3 (13:53):
Yeah, and the pipeline for the rest of Fulton County
is getting clogged like crazy. I mean there was another
and Matthews has another client I read about this a
few weeks ago who is a waiting trial and will
not go to trial because he's defended by Carton Matthews
and you know, so they've made special accommodations so he
won't go to trial for another year at least. I mean,

(14:15):
whenever this thing wraps is basically when this guy's going
to go to trial. They're just waiting for that, which
seems crazy. I mean it's it's like, so you've got
this family who's relative was allegedly murdered by this guy,
who has to wait for justice for that long. Plus
you've got this guy who has to sit in jail
and await his time because of something that has nothing
to do with him. So in addition to you know,

(14:37):
young thug and you know, all the all of his
co defendants being caught in this system for so long,
you have this trickle down effect that's really crazy, and
I think we'll be I think we'll start hearing a
lot more about that soon.

Speaker 2 (14:50):
Name that wasn't on the witness list, Ghana.

Speaker 4 (14:55):
Is what do you make of that?

Speaker 2 (14:56):
George just this that our sort of initial law at
what Gunda was charged with, and the evidence that they
might have was probably on the spot, that they didn't
have a lot, and that they wrapped him in because
he had money and they wanted to take him off
the table for a little while, Like that's the only
plausible explanation for why they would have bothered with him

(15:19):
in the first place.

Speaker 4 (15:20):
What do you think, Joe, Yeah, I mean his charges.
As George said, we're so far from again the main
crux of this case, specifically, you know, the murder of
donovand Thomas and some of the more intense weapons charges
that came later. And there was a lot made about
the nature of gunns plea, you know, whether the Alfred

(15:42):
plea actually differentiated him from some of the people who
took deals. The DA's office was very adamant that if
called to testify, he would in fact be required to
testify as the other people who took please and yeah,
and then Gunner's lawyer was a very adamant on the
other side. I'm sure you know, multiple people on this

(16:02):
podcast have had unpleasant phone calls regarding these issues, potentially
that that Ghana was would never be asked to testify.
So I think it's possible there was a little bit
of you know, a wink wink, like, we don't really
need the guy because whatever he's copying to in his
plea is going to be proven ten times over by

(16:25):
the time we get to trial. And yeah, the facts
of the of the you know, the counts that he
was in first hand, I just don't think I don't
think would require him, especially if he was going to
be the sort of difficult states witness that we've seen
thus far in which people even people have taken pleaser,
trying to say as a little as possible to fulfill

(16:47):
their their duties.

Speaker 1 (16:49):
Okay, so we've talked so much about like how this
trial might be perceived in the eyes of the jury,
right because they are the ones who are ultimately going
to roll on this. But one thing we wanted to
ask you about, Joe is how this trial is being
looked at at the eyes of other artists, you know,
the sort who might have been afraid that rap music

(17:10):
was really going to be put on trial in regards
to why I sell, Could you give us some insight
into that reaction and how that's evolved as it's continued
to stretch on and on in ways that we've talked about, you.

Speaker 4 (17:21):
Know, I would say overall, my main surprise, sense of
surprise is how quiet the music industry has been about
this trial. I think, you know, you have your free
Thugs here and there, you have songs on albums that
seem to allude to him, which maybe we'll get to
you later in this conversation, But at the same time,

(17:43):
there's not a huge galvanized effort, you know, like there
may have been in past hip hop trials. And I
think part of that has to do with, as we've
alluded to, both the fractured state of media and news
like even Trump news comes and goes like multiple times
a week at this point, and Trump is, you know,

(18:04):
degrees more famous and potentially consequential compared to Young Thug,
But also the facts of the case are unwieldy. I
think people don't exactly know what to make of it
and where THUG fits in. I think people see, you know, artists,
industry people, local Atlanta music seeing people you know, they

(18:27):
have a deeper understanding both of the facts of the case,
but then a surface level understanding. I think as most
people who have lives and fast paced careers, like rappers
or musicians or managers or label people like, I think,
their understanding of the facts of the case itself are quick, cursory,
and you might you know that you see you see
headlines on social media, you get the viral moments when

(18:50):
someone's testimony goes above and beyond. I think people know.
I think the overarching feeling is that this case is
a mess, and maybe that's going to help THUG in
the long term, I think, But I think most people
are just sort of going to wait and see, and
we may see, you know, like I said earlier, a
rise in the profile of the case as we get

(19:10):
closer to jury deliberations and a verdict, and then I
think is when we'll see people really come out of
the woodwork and respond. But I do think overall the
reaction has been fairly muted.

Speaker 1 (19:20):
I don't know, do you agree, Yeah, I feel like
I haven't seen a whole lot. I guess. First, as
we were reporting this podcast, we did speak with profit
with Black Music Action Coalition and who positive that maybe
there is fear in the music industry from wanting to
speak out, especially given the strong reaction toward gonna one

(19:44):
way or the other. It just seemed like they would
rather just not be involved in something like that whatsoever,
and so that they don't get bogged bogged down by
that as well. But so he was alluding to the
fact that there might be fear in people speak out.
But then on the other hand, it's like, yeah, we
had a lot of trouble I think reporting the podcast,

(20:06):
even just getting people to comment on the whole thing.
It seemed like even from three hundred's perspective, like so,
like one person that I really really wanted to feature
on the podcast was anybody from three hundred Entertainment, especially
as they were like ramping up, you know, the rap
on Trial campaign and everything and wanting to get people
to sign a petition. I thought that would actually be
the easiest thing in the world on our behalf, But

(20:28):
I was shocked by how much I was like, shut down,
shut down, shutdown. So I wonder if they've even sort
of like tammed down on the response, you know, just
to not make such a big deal out of it.
But yeah, it was. It's been really challenging. I feel
like in one way or the other, it's been really
hard to hear, like from any sort of artist's perspective
on what this is. Like, Like the studios didn't want
to touch the news, Like none of the artists who

(20:50):
maybe even have a tangential relationship to Young Thug wanted
to comment on it. I thought it was really interesting.

Speaker 3 (20:56):
So we're not seeing a ton of people like comment
on it directly or I mean occasionally, I guess we've
seen a few, like Drake obviously wide in when that
phone call was the jail phone call was leaked with
Mariah scientists, he was pretty pissed off about that.

Speaker 2 (21:08):
He also did a video early like which was like
where he flashed freewise.

Speaker 3 (21:11):
Well, so this is what I was going to say.
So the freehy I sell stuff'sbviously been out there quite
a bit. But Joe, I'm wondering we have seen Young
Thug featured in a bunch of songs since his arrest
came out of the full album has been featured in
a bunch of songs, and I'm wondering what that shows.
Like that's obviously I would think some level of support too, right,
like continuing to put Young Thug in your music.

Speaker 4 (21:32):
Yeah, I think there's two levels of it. There's the
implicit or explicit show of solidarity of either appearing on
Thug's album, which seems to have been mostly put together
from stuff he'd recorded previously. If we know anything about
Young Thug as an artist, it's that he's extremely extremely
prolific and recording at all times, you know, in the

(21:54):
mold of his idols like Gucci Man or Lol Wayne,
both of whom had stints in prison. We're also very
uh you know, ultimately very productive for them musically and creatively.
So I think I think there's that, And then I
think there's probably a business reality of it too, which
is if you're either buying paying for, you know, a
Young Thug verse or contributing to his his eventual royalty

(22:18):
statements by featuring him on you know, a big album
or two, you know, that's a that's a form of
of of material support, uh for somebody who you know,
has had most of his avenues for making money frozen
by sitting in copp County jail for you know, going
on going on two years now.

Speaker 3 (22:39):
So you think that most of the music that has
been released since then was stuff that Young Thug had
already recorded.

Speaker 4 (22:45):
Uh, that that's my assumption, you know, I think there hasn't.
There's been a little whispers here and there, you know,
going back to the first song on the original release
of Business Business, uh, which features Drake and has a
call between Drake and Young Thug on the jail.

Speaker 8 (23:02):
Phone, y'all's brother brother taught to me, what's the word? Oh,
I ain't going ship man, just pushing more, Peter more sweeter,
welcompleter Amy, Peter pushing around.

Speaker 4 (23:17):
And then when Thugs verse comes in, it sounds to
me to my ear as somebody who uses voice memos
a lot to record interviews. It sounds like it could
have been recorded on an iPhone and it seems to
refer to being in jail or something about his his
current situation. Uh. So that may be a new or

(23:39):
newer or newish verse since the since the arrest, most
of the other stuff, you know, seems a bit evergreen.

Speaker 2 (23:47):
Uh.

Speaker 4 (23:47):
And again like there are countless producers, engineers, I'm sure,
with hard drive upon hard drive upon hard drive of
unreleased Thug music. You know, there's a real history of
this in rap, you know, Gucci being the best example.
But even this past week, Uh Thug put out a
song with Lil Wayne, which to me was like, was
extremely noteworthy because Wayne is in this in the details

(24:12):
of this case, in between the lines as somebody who
may have had, you know, potentially almost fatal static with
Thug and his allies at some point. You know, I
think they've only done one one song together previously, maybe two,
So I felt like Wayne putting something out with at
this moment that's like a real that's a real show
of like sort of almost reaching across the aisle to

(24:35):
say like we may have had our differences in the past,
but with you against the criminal justice system, like I'm
with you.

Speaker 1 (24:40):
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Going back to what you said, Joe,
I mean, I'd be curious to hear your thoughts because
you kept alluding to Gucci Maine. I think what I
remember from those Gucci Maine days, especially when he was
dropping tape after tape and then just prefacing it with
like jailhouse calls after the other. You would get like
the long, extended, like two minute intro like call from
Fulton County Jail, and then it's just like completely garbled

(25:02):
on the other end. I feel like there was so
much more mystique around how that was possible, and Gucci
wasn't even the first. He was just the most prolific
and the most brazen about it, Whereas I think now
fans have such a bigger understanding of the fact that
artists are just constantly producing and therefore had this backlock
to be able to produce even when they are being jail.

(25:24):
So maybe now I think maybe the muted fan response
toward all this comes from just fans like understanding, like
you know, like this isn't new, Like it's not all
that interesting to hear from Thug at this point in time,
just because we've seen how this has happened before.

Speaker 4 (25:40):
Yeah, and there are also rappers who have taken it
to an even greater level, like someone like Draco the
Ruler who's since passed, but when he was when he
was in jail in LA he recorded an entire album
using the jail phone and it was called Thank You
for Using GTL, which is like the message that comes
up when you're on the phone, so he recorded you know,
entire versus through that. So you know, we could still

(26:04):
see something like that from Thug. You know, there's also,
as we know from this trial and many others, like
a ton of illegal phones going around in in jails
across the country. So there there are ways that I think, like,
you know, who knows how long this thing goes on,
and at some point he maybe he might be itchy
to put something out, So there are you know, there

(26:25):
are stunts. I think there are a lot of eyes
on him, so that probably limits what he can and
can't do. But at a certain point you could see
someone like Thug rebelling against.

Speaker 3 (26:34):
Those strictures in terms of support and just sort of
like a view on perspective on young Thug Joe. You've
got sort of an interesting viewpoint because you obviously have
spent a lot of time on the streets in Atlanta
and in the studios to write your book, and just
somebody who can't come to Atlanta for I mean, you're
basically living here for a couple of years I would

(26:55):
assume writing that book, and but you also obviously work
for the National Record and so you've got this this
wide lens view as well. Do you think there's a
difference between how people in Atlanta see Young Thug in
this trial and how people nationwide sea Young Thug in
this trial?

Speaker 4 (27:12):
Definitely? I think to the extent that Thug is known nationally.
You know, he played the Grammys with Camilla Cabeo, he
played SNL with you know, the guy from Fun and Gunna,
like right before the indictment. I think Thug is known
as this sort of like uh outray mystical creature. Right.
People know the dress from early on, you know, the

(27:34):
couple dresses, you know, the cover of the mixtape and
and the fashion shoots he did. You know, they know
him as as this sort of whimsical guy with the
crazy voice and you never quite know what he's saying.
You know, it comes on the radio and you know, like,
who's this guy? And you know he played he played
with Travis Barker, you know, on NPR like he's he's

(27:56):
he has this you know, chameleon like persona and is
almost like funny and playful in this way. But there's
another side of Thug that I think the prosecution is
trying to paint in this and that also people who
may have known him longer or seen him on a
more street level are familiar with which is like, you know,

(28:17):
and it's there in the music if you're really listening.

Speaker 5 (28:19):
Uh.

Speaker 4 (28:20):
Whether or not that's that's true or not is obviously
what's what's at stake in this trial. But that's like
the you know, the tough guy thug that's uh, a
thug who's like not to be messed with. And he
he built up that persona you know, both himself and
with the people he was around. You know, you have

(28:40):
characters in this trial. You know, someone someone like Pee
like uh, like Peelie Roscoe, who was convicted in the
Little Wing tour bus shooting that I alluded to earlier
and who's once again wrapped up in this rico. You know,
people people testifying now who have been in and out
of prison, or people you know, indicted alongside Doug who

(29:02):
were already incarcerated. Like there is there's a sense that
you know, there's there's a street level lore about him
that I think Atlanta knows that didn't really trickle up
into the mainstream.

Speaker 1 (29:14):
Yeah, and that even came up in a reporting so
like as you were talking Joe. I was thinking about
a comment that Bain Joiner gave us that, unfortunately I
don't think actually made the episode. I don't know how
I let this slip, but I.

Speaker 3 (29:26):
Might have cut it.

Speaker 1 (29:27):
Sorry, No, you're you know you're good. Those So Bain Joiner,
for those who don't remember, he is one third of
a creative consultancy that created like this unofficial slogan for Atlanta,
which is that Atlanta influences everything, and he's an Atlanta native.
He was talking about how a whole decade ago, like
specifically around the Little Waned tour bus incident, how there

(29:50):
was that lore that you were talking about, Joe, and
that really it was from people like you had to
be on the pavement. You're not driving your car through
seventy five eighty five traffic, if you were going through Marta,
if you're going to the public library. That's where people
were having these conversations about young Thug and this outsized
reputation of his, not necessarily for music, but for what

(30:11):
was supposedly like happening in the streets. So it's interesting.
It feels like you're our sources check.

Speaker 3 (30:16):
So they say we'll be back to have the break.

Speaker 2 (30:28):
So I'm sort of sitting here thinking and I want
to I'm sorry to take this in a random direction,
but I've I've been thinking a lot about the cost
of all of this. The uh. I'm sort of as
we're talking, I'm going through the numbers for what the
judge makes, what the what every sheriff's deputy makes, whatevery.

Speaker 3 (30:50):
Some of the defense attorneys are on the you know,
on the Fulton County YEP tab.

Speaker 2 (30:55):
The number that I keep coming up in my head
is five thousand dollars a day.

Speaker 3 (30:59):
That's seems low, though you think it's only five thousand
dollars a day.

Speaker 2 (31:02):
I'm being generous, but still.

Speaker 3 (31:04):
You multiply five thousand a day times times that's the
lowest it could possibly be. Yeah, times, you know, times
four years or whatever. This could be every day.

Speaker 2 (31:14):
Like, it's a minimum cost for ten sheriffs deputies making
fifty five grand a year, plus a judge, we had
one hundred and fifty plus a court reporter or the
court administrator making you know, eighty, and another like the
person taking the notes making fifty you know, plus two
prosecutors sitting at the table. A minimum of five thousand

(31:39):
a day, So five thousand a day and they've been
in court I want to say, about three hundred days
since the start of.

Speaker 3 (31:48):
The trial, including the jury selection. Yeah, and I.

Speaker 1 (31:51):
Can't like to your point, Tommy about stuff being delayed.
As you're talking about that cost, I'm wondering about how
that costs multiplies the more cases get delayed. Right because
as I'm watching this trial specifically with testimony regarding I mean,
it could have been anybody, investigator David Quinn, Miss Bennett,

(32:12):
all these Walter Murphy, Everybody's talking about how like it's
been ten years since like this happened, and when they
say they don't remember, like honestly, it sounds believable in
that moment, no matter how much you know, we may
think that they're trying to dodge like giving the truth.
So I wonder how that effect multiplies, like over time. So,
if for example, a trial gets delayed by an entire year,

(32:35):
how does that affect the justice system from being able
to deliver a speedy trial. Where if the more time passes,
the more their memory continues to fade. And so like,
I wonder how much longer trials after this, even the
ones that are supposed to be expedient, just like grow
to where like I don't know, I just feel like
there's probably some horrifying looking graph that's gonna, you know,

(32:56):
come up over the next couple of years about like
how much the justice system is just costing us pero.

Speaker 2 (33:01):
And it's why I keep coming back to this idea
that because Fannie Willis said at the start of Oliver
of her term, I'm going to be doing a lot
of ricos on gangs in Atlanta, and I don't care.

Speaker 1 (33:13):
The papers were going to be clear from the office.
That's what she told us.

Speaker 2 (33:17):
Yeah, and so here we are. And there have been
a couple of other racketeering cases and gang cases that
have come through office, but mostly it's not her, Like
I'm seeing stuff into cab County and Gwynad like one
in Cobb, a bunch of stuff around the state, none
involving marquee name rappers, like no bear in mind, like

(33:41):
I am unaware of any meaningful accusation.

Speaker 1 (33:44):
George.

Speaker 4 (33:45):
Yeah, well you even think of yf and Lucci like
he was sitting from a year before the YSL case
and then he got a plea deal. You know, is
that plea related to how long the YSL trial was
obviously they were waiting for that to to clear up
before they they tried Lucci and his crew for what

(34:05):
is basically the flip side of the beef that at
the center of this thing. So even that you know
it's been it's been years and years.

Speaker 2 (34:14):
Yeah, Like my thumbnail, guess is from the first indictment
on the y A cell case. Sitting here, I'm saying
it's about two million.

Speaker 3 (34:22):
Oh man, I think you're low. I think that's low.

Speaker 4 (34:24):
Yeah. Also, and think of the incarceration costs on top
of it.

Speaker 3 (34:28):
I did not They've been investigating this through twelve years too, so.

Speaker 2 (34:32):
You just from the arrest it would.

Speaker 1 (34:34):
Be fascinating to sit down and figure out magic Lulu that.

Speaker 3 (34:38):
Yeah, I don't think you got to charge that to
the court. They had to pay for that out of pocket.

Speaker 2 (34:43):
So the cost per inmate at Fulton County is about
eighteen grand a year, so six left but six times. Yeah,
Like that's another you're right, that's another.

Speaker 4 (35:00):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (35:00):
I think it's it's going to be tens of millions
at least.

Speaker 2 (35:04):
So I don't think it's going to be tens of millions,
but it doesn't have to be to throw the whole
system into chaos.

Speaker 3 (35:10):
You really don't think it's going to be tens of
millions for like, if you've taken all the total costs
of this, I don't know. It's it seems like it's
going to be a ton well, and.

Speaker 4 (35:17):
There's one person who really has is going to have
to answer for this on the ballot.

Speaker 1 (35:21):
Right, and that and that's fine, funny, Yeah, I mean
this is all for the sake of crime, right, targeting.

Speaker 3 (35:27):
Crime, targeting crime, And that's the thing. I mean they'll
point to the numbers and they'll say crime is down,
and we've talked about this a million times, and right, like,
the numbers basically show that, yeah, crime's fall in a bunch.
But also the numbers they're pointing back to, and they
did this in our interviews are were artificially spiked because
of COVID. I mean, there was a big rise in crime,
violent crime during COVID.

Speaker 2 (35:45):
I want to put that couple of million dollar number
in perspective. The District Attorney's office has a budget of
about forty one million dollars, and so one case, one
trial is taking.

Speaker 3 (36:00):
Up you know, a significant portion.

Speaker 2 (36:02):
Two and a half percent of the entire budget, which
is to say they could only do twenty of these
and nothing else, not to.

Speaker 4 (36:12):
Mention the other blockbuster case leaving yeah.

Speaker 2 (36:15):
Right, And so I mean we're not talking about insignificant
amounts of staff, attention and the resources of the the agency.
It's like, I mean, it really is. It's like there's
nothing left. Like once you start getting at all of
the essential necessary doesn't matter what's going on expenses that

(36:36):
the District Attorney's office is going to rack up just
at the cost of doing business. They don't have forty
one million dollars to spend on cases they've got like twenty.

Speaker 3 (36:48):
Well, and what what happens if young Thug either gets
off or negotiates a settlement like you know, Wife and
Luci did where he's time served or something like that.
I mean, what happens to his reputation? It seems like
as a figure, and Joe, I want to actually ask
you this, but it seems to me that that would
potentially embolden him and make him even even a stronger

(37:10):
player if they think he's in this like allegedly in
this street gang stuff, but also in the music scene,
just like a bigger presence overall right, I mean we
saw we've seen this happen with artists who have have
beaten the system.

Speaker 4 (37:21):
You know, Oh, I mean America loves an outlaw, and
hip hop loves an outlaw. And that's behind these personas
real or fictional in the first place. Right the you know,
think back to Tupac or you know, Snoop beating beating
a murder trial early on in his career. You know,
you know jay Z sort of being tough on in

(37:43):
his way. You know this this only adds. Like this
is if if Thug gets off, you know, and think
of the peak he was at. You know, even when
he was arrested, people thought Thug's career was over five
years before that and he'd hit like a whole new level.
If he gets out again, you know, it's it's like
it's John Gotti the first few times when when when

(38:03):
you get a you get a hung jury or not guilty,
like you know, then then his his his persona. Yeah,
it only grows. And I think the interests that people
will have in whatever he does next. I mean, even
look at Gunna, people said by taking this plea deal,
Gunna was gonna was dead and gone in hip hop
and he's bigger than he's ever been. Uh, not only musically,

(38:27):
but sort of like persona wise. People want to know
what's going on with this guy, how he how he
sort of slithered his way out of this, even if
it was in a way that people initially thought was
going to harm his credibility. I think you know, we've
seen now that people's memories are short, and this trial
is long. It's so long that Ghanna has been both

(38:47):
dead and reincarnated at the top of the charts before
before we being even gotten to the good witnesses.

Speaker 1 (38:54):
Georgia, I thought this would interest you because I guess
prior to young Duggud and friends being being arrested, there
was a show at Stave Farm Arena, right, you were
closely monitoring it. You were closely monitoring it trying to
see whether the show would still go on in the
aftermath of everything. Ghana is going on tour in May.
It wraps in June in Atlanta at State Farm Arena.

Speaker 3 (39:17):
Oh my word, that is all.

Speaker 1 (39:19):
I just wanted to point out the irony too.

Speaker 3 (39:21):
Circle.

Speaker 2 (39:21):
Yeah, and nobody is saying, oh God, we can't have this.

Speaker 4 (39:25):
Yeah, we need to foil the extra security costs paid
by the county for that one.

Speaker 2 (39:29):
There you go, Oh, I would love to see paid
for by the county. So that's the thing. I doubt it.
I think state farm folks would be like, no, like
write a check, like just raise the ticket price by
a dollar and hire all the off duty sheriff's deputies
in town all.

Speaker 4 (39:48):
But it would be interesting to see how Atlanta hip
hop responds to that. I assume it's It's goin his
first rail show in the city since since his plea.
But he's but people are slowly coming back to his side.

Speaker 3 (39:59):
You know.

Speaker 4 (39:59):
He's as a video with offset from Egos that came
out a couple of weeks ago. They appeared together live.

Speaker 3 (40:05):
You know.

Speaker 4 (40:06):
I think you got to imagine people are starting to
come out of the wings and think like, okay, Like
is it is it cool to collaborate with Ghanna again?

Speaker 2 (40:14):
Like that?

Speaker 4 (40:15):
You know it? Only it only takes one and then
two and then three and then and then people forget.

Speaker 1 (40:19):
It's like a domino effect. So that's so interesting because
we've been wondering this entire time and making the podcast one,
what sort of chill effect this trial would have on
crime in Atlanta? And then two, what sort of chill
effect this might have on music that is coming out
of Atlanta. So, I mean, Joe, I've kind of had
my head buried under the sand and trying to keep
up with all the trial proceedings. So I'm mostly steeped

(40:41):
in Alanta trapp nostalgia at the moment. But what's been
going on in Atlanta. It seems like shit's more breezing
than it's ever been.

Speaker 4 (40:51):
Yeah, I think the idea that you know, rap lyrics
would be would come from a come from a more
guarded place now that they were being used in criminal indictments,
like the issue is, And I think this goes to
the broader question of crime. One Rico case against one
alleged gang and one part of Atlanta does not rid

(41:14):
the city of the circumstances that birth this kind of music.
There are always going to be kids from nothing who
feel like they have nothing to lose, who want to
let out, you know, the basest, you know, most vicious
emotions over a beat. That's what hip hop is. That's
what Atlanta rap is. And if you pay attention at

(41:35):
all to the underground, to the unsigned talent coming out
of Atlanta, as Christina said, like it is. It is
as vicious as you know, lyrically and sonically violent as
it's ever been. I think the drill effect around the country,
you know, ten years on from Chief Keef in Chicago,
Like is that sound and that super hyper local, nihilistic

(41:58):
violent subject matter is like still what is extremely popular?
I thought, you know, maybe we were coming out the
other side of it, probably unrelated to the thug trial,
but you think of someone. You know, there's a buzzing
artist out of out of Atlanta right now called Baby
Kia and his viral song is called crash Him.

Speaker 2 (42:16):
Yeah, qualking down?

Speaker 3 (42:18):
What that says?

Speaker 2 (42:19):
Ask a bullet said, so I can't white it.

Speaker 4 (42:21):
Let a hate please put up walking down?

Speaker 1 (42:23):
Ask do you love that being type?

Speaker 2 (42:24):
Put off mask and sud and tell him not Dan
walk them down.

Speaker 7 (42:27):
On what happened?

Speaker 4 (42:28):
And the first line in the song is like I'm
walking on Cleveland with that stick like it's straight out
of this trial, you know, And he's naming names, you
know there there's there's specifics in this song. I don't know,
you know, if they do or don't refer to to
real situations. But but the idea that a song like
this exists with the thug indictment as headline news in

(42:50):
the city. Like, I think that's a that's as much
of a middle finger to the system as you could imagine.

Speaker 2 (42:57):
Let me tell you. I like, so, I guess I've
got to like the folks who care about what I
think come from a particular demographic. Like they are older
black guys who can shout at clouds and get off
my lawn a little bit, a little bit, not all
of them, not most of them, but enough enough that
they will come up to me and say, this drill music.

(43:20):
I am worried about this drill music, and to some degree,
to the degree that the street is talking to me.
And please don't assume that the street is talking to me.
But like, I think there's a disconnect between the industry,
the music industry, and the underground music that you're talking about.

(43:41):
You don't have to have a label to make music
like baby Kia, Like anybody can put that up and
so like, even though the labels in the industry may
be like whatever I would, I would here.

Speaker 4 (43:56):
So I wouldn't be so sure about that. Though, I
think the amount of the amount of Atlanta rappers, you know,
with one hundred thousand YouTube views, who I see on Instagram,
in in label offices, taking meetings. You know, there's there's
there's never going to be a shortage of business people
who want to make money off of street level talent.

(44:18):
I think, you know, you might be quieter than it
used to be. You know, you're not gonna You're not
gonna They're not going to pop a bottle of champagne
and post it to Sony Corporate Instagram. Maybe it's done
through an imprint or you know, a JV label or whatever,
or it's a distribution deal, you know, with a company
like Empire. You know, like there there are there are
a lot of different ways to do this more creatively

(44:40):
I think than there.

Speaker 2 (44:40):
Used to be.

Speaker 4 (44:41):
But also, the labels have never really been held responsible
for for any role that they have in this Uh
you know, we've we've heard from the beginning of this
trial people saying, well, you know, why isn't anyone holding
the white executives responsible? And that continued. I was one
of those mostly mostly that's a mostly rhetorical questions.

Speaker 3 (45:00):
You know, Well, it's interesting because HYSL, you know, is
obviously a label and I signed up a long time
ago for these text messages, it would like update you
and they had new YSL things, and I get those still,
and it's kind of weird to get like a regular
marketing text about whysl's stuff when all this stuff's going on,
And I wonder, like, is the label still basically functioning

(45:22):
the same way or has it been impacted dramatically by this?
Do you know?

Speaker 4 (45:28):
I think a label like YSL is so dependent on
its principle on young Thug basically, you know, it's like
it's basically a miracle when you can get a second
artist on an artist's imprint to pop at the level
of Gunna, you know, and the fact that they got
gonna to be as big as he is and continue
to be, you know, presumably he still has some sort

(45:50):
of contractual relationship with YSL despite the whatever distance there
there there may be personally, but between the people involved.
So I think, like often, you know, you think of
someone like Unfun Thug's brother who who who was involved
in this case, and I think as back in back
in prison, having violated his probation. You know, most of

(46:12):
the artists under HYSL, other than Gunn, are Thug's closest friends.
And collaborators. You know, there are people who are attached
directly to him and who he was giving a chance
to directly, you know. So I think it's very hard
for a label that exists because of one man to
succeed without that man. But that doesn't mean there aren't

(46:34):
artists trying, you know. You think of someone like Strick
who's out here, I think, trying to carry the torch.
You know, there are people, there are always people like that.
But I think thug was was the engine and HYSL
only exists. You know, a label gives Thug YSL as
basically like a bonus to say not only do we
want you, but we want your friends and family too.

Speaker 3 (46:56):
And I guess on that same note, George, is why
sell the gang leged gang? Is that still functioning if
they believe it's out there?

Speaker 2 (47:04):
From what folks have told me, And again take this
with a grain of salt, like YSL is a function
of Cleveland Avenue. Like as long as Cleveland Avenue exists,
a kid who's growing up there is going to call
himself a YSL gang member if they're going to be
ganging at all.

Speaker 3 (47:25):
So it's just like saying where you're from basically, but
that's that runs counter to everything that the proces.

Speaker 4 (47:34):
But that's why this is such a tricky case because
these hybrid these hybrid gangs, these these clicks, you know,
the way the way this culture works in Atlanta. It
is not the typical way that people think of, you know,
a top down organization, a mafia style organization. That is
not what this is. And I think that's the struggle

(47:56):
that the prosecutor's office has here, is explaining this sort
of amorphous thing in a way that tracks for a
jury while also saying that thug is at the top
of this pyramid.

Speaker 1 (48:08):
Yeah, it's gonna be really interesting to see how the
jury responds to DK's testimony, in particular, because he did
touch on this right so so much of that testimony
was about, okay, so like how many of these defendants
are YSL? How do they become part of YSL? And
how does this how does all this shit work? First
he looks around the courtroom and he's like, Okay, I
know maybe like two or three people here. The rest

(48:29):
of them, I have no clue. And like, literally, let's
see Dae Simone Hilton, She's going through she's going through
the list. She's like, Okay, well, how do you know
this person? Well? I know them from the studio versus
Cleveland Avenue versus. Like if somebody was on the west side,
like DK like would scrunch up his face and be like,
I have no fucking clue. I never go to that
side of town. And then meanwhile, is this amazing quote

(48:51):
about how like how do you like? I guess the
question was how do you become part of YSL? And
dude was like, I don't know, Like you could literally
just go and say it. You know, you could say
your WHI sold as much as much as you could
say that you were like Muslim or Christian? Was why
sell affiliated with any national monkeys?

Speaker 2 (49:12):
Yeah?

Speaker 4 (49:14):
Who or what?

Speaker 8 (49:16):
I don't think it's just blood. I don't think it's
like no particular individual.

Speaker 4 (49:27):
So you said it was just blood.

Speaker 3 (49:30):
It was blood. Cryops.

Speaker 8 (49:31):
You could be anything. Wise, you could be Muslim, Christian?
Why I say it wasn't no you gotta be the
to be wise. No, it was just you want to
be wise, be wise here.

Speaker 4 (49:43):
Nobody said you can't be wise here.

Speaker 1 (49:45):
And I'm just thinking about like how the jury's going
to receive all that now, Granted, they don't have to
take his word on it. But if that's going to
be coupled with all these explanations about what a hybrid
gang is, like that's a really tall order.

Speaker 2 (49:58):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (49:58):
I mean we talked about that when we were looking it,
like we were listening to these witnesses describe what a
hybrid gang is, you know, these police officials and these detectives,
and it sounded really squishy. It was like, Oh, it's this,
it's also this, it's also this, it's it felt like
a very convenient, you know, hole that you could basically
put any type of peg into. And I feel like

(50:19):
that if I was a jur I mean, we've talked
about this already, but if I was a juror, I
would be like, reasonable doubt is what I'm holding this too.
And I don't know forgetting there.

Speaker 2 (50:27):
Right, I want to come back to something really quick.
So you referenced baby Kia and Strict and you are, again,
a mighty journalist with the mighty New York Times, and
you were referencing street rappers who like I mean, you'd
have to google, Like I mean, if you were like

(50:49):
Joe Listener from Marietta.

Speaker 4 (50:51):
Sure, yeah, I'm saying, I'm like, I might as well
be making these guys.

Speaker 3 (50:54):
Up like three million views on YouTube though. That is
what I saw that.

Speaker 2 (51:00):
It's just like this distance between a signed member of
the label YSL who's got a distribution deal and is
getting pushed by like Sony Records or something like that,
and a baby Kia who's got you know, a bunch
of YouTube views like is small if they can, if

(51:20):
they're both capable, if you are a person who is
capable of registering that they are culturally relevant, and somebody
that a New York Times news reporter could talk about
like baby like this, the distance between the street and
some boardroom in New York is not is not great anymore.

Speaker 4 (51:40):
And that's wrapped today. That's impot today. That's and specifically
in the streaming era, in the digital in the digital time,
like this is. And this is why I think we've
seen so much death and violence and court cases and
indictments within him. It's like the bar has fallen to

(52:03):
where you can call yourself a rapper, you know, and
and you can have a viable career with no guidance
and no chance to move out of your bad neighborhood,
and you know, like this is this is what I
wanted to document in my book Rap Capital, Like this,
this stuff happens, and especially in a city like Atlanta,
which is known for creating stars over and over again,

(52:26):
there was this gold rush when all of a sudden
the music business was booming again, and any kid on
the street who appears in the background of a little
baby video could get a deal for a couple tens
of thousands of dollars, hundreds of thousands of dollars, and
even more. You know, you get a verse from young
thug and all of a sudden, you're you're signing for
a million bucks. But a million bucks is not a

(52:48):
lifetime is worth of money, you know, And these things,
these things grow quickly, but they crumble just as quickly.
And I think that's a lot of the that's a
lot of the tension that we see here, especially when
you pair that with the lifestyle that you know, people
want to see in this kind of music, the od
crash and lifestyle.

Speaker 3 (53:08):
So it's less that more rappers are alleged gangsters and
more that alleged gangsters are getting into rap.

Speaker 4 (53:17):
That's definitely what the what the Prosecutor's office says you
know that that increasingly these hybrid gangs are driven by rappers.
You know, I have you know, we had my colleague
Richard Fosson and I and in the piece we did
you know the Marissa you guys mentioned earlier? Gang investigators
said the new color way, the new colors are are

(53:38):
the rappers and people line up behind them. So that's
the case that they are trying to make. But it's
not so simple, you know, you think of you know,
even trying to explain to the jury what the DA
has done here that like some of y s l
or bloods and some of them are crips, Like that
doesn't compute to people whose version who's you know, who's

(53:58):
whose understanding of gangs comes from nineties or early two
thousand's popular culture. It's like it's completely at odds. So
there's a lot of cognitive dissonance in trying to tell
a linear story here.

Speaker 3 (54:13):
More on the way stay with us. I feel like
we're wrapping it up right, guys. It feels like we're
taking our final lap here. How do we finish this thing?
Two years?

Speaker 1 (54:27):
What do we do?

Speaker 3 (54:28):
I don't know what to do at the end.

Speaker 2 (54:29):
Here, Let's start with this like I will still be
writing from time to time for Rolling Stone about this case.
I've I've taken a long term, long term like a year.
I have a one year contract writing about democracy for
The Guardian, and I'm covering the South. That doesn't mean
that I'm walking entirely away from watching the Young Thug trial.

(54:51):
I'm just not going to be there every day, sitting
there listening to testimony. I'm going to catch up, like
and as the real the important things come in, like
like you know, when Little Duke testifies or if Kenneth
Copelnch takes the stand, like I'll know to come in

(55:13):
and I'll write something and I hopefully listener you can
find that. And like, I'm not sure what Christina's plans are.

Speaker 1 (55:21):
George, we talked about this. I have no idea.

Speaker 3 (55:23):
All right, your roll twenty two is still valid. You
know you're still going to just hang out for fun in.

Speaker 4 (55:28):
Court, Christina. I know, I know you'll stay at it too.

Speaker 1 (55:33):
I mean, yeah, however you can, however I can. I mean,
this case has just proven to be so much more
than I could have anticipated for when Young Thug was
arrested and when Gunna was arrested, I you know, I
had this perception of how like this was almost sort
of like a this was a trial concerning like a

(55:55):
rap superstar and that his music was being scrutinized and that,
and like part of that is true, but so much
of what this trial is and compass it's been like
the most complicated local story in Atlanta that I've certainly
tried to follow. Like it covers, like, you know, just
a decade's worth of the city trying to wrap its
mind around how the city is changing in general, and

(56:17):
like who gets left behind as a result, and how
the grind dynamics sort of reflect that. I think, you know,
my mind is just like completely scrambled up on this
whole thing. So I feel like I have no choice
in a way than other to keep up with this
trial because I literally don't know anything at this point.

Speaker 4 (56:32):
Is I Yeah, I'll say I took I took parental
leave recently in the middle of this trial, and you know,
from covering it at the times, which I wasn't doing
in the way that you guys are. You know, some
of you guys are day in and day out. But
I was swooping in and I and you know, I
was thinking like, oh, maybe it'll be over by the
time I get back, like I'm going to miss writing

(56:54):
the Verdict story for the New York Times. And yet
here we are. I'm about about ready to come back
back to work and we're not even close. But I
do just want to shout out the people like you guys,
George Christina, you know been covering this at at the
ground level. All the local reporters who are doing such
a great job. You know, Michael Siden at WSP, you

(57:16):
know Joseph Papp and Shaddy Abuse at AJAC, you know
Jewel Wicker covering for national outlets, you know, and then
people people coming in and out, you know Kathy and
Megan who you guys have had on the show, and
you know it's there's really I think gonna be a
cohort of people who stuck this out and documented it

(57:38):
for history, and I do think it is important on
multiple levels. So just shout out to you guys for
this show, and to everybody else sort of in the
courtroom and on the live stream every day, Well.

Speaker 3 (57:50):
Thank you so much that I mean, you can't really
end better than that, right, And I will say we
were rewarded for this We really appreciate the listeners because
you know this this show. We haven't even mentioned this,
but this show is nominated for an amb for Best
Documentary Podcast for the year. We just got back. That's
why we missed us. That's why we missed a week
for the show is because we were out at the
ceremony that we lost, of course, but hey, it felt

(58:12):
really good to be nominated. And so I think the
response to this show, you know, has surprised us as well.
We're just three fools that started sitting behind microphones and
making something and so we've been really thrilled with everything
that we were.

Speaker 1 (58:27):
Yeah, and I think people, to Joe's point, might not
even fully understand the repercussions of everything that's happening now.
But like, I'm confident that a couple of years removed,
like we're really gonna like come to terms, which is
how much this trial actually means. And then maybe that's
when we'll actually win Best Documentary Podcast, once people realize
how important we actually are. King Slime is a production

(59:05):
of iHeart Podcasts and Heirloom Media.

Speaker 2 (59:08):
It's written and produced by George Cheaty, Christina Lee, and
Tommy Andres.

Speaker 1 (59:12):
Mixing sound design and original music by Evan Tyre and
Taylor Chakoi.

Speaker 2 (59:17):
The executive producer and editor is Tommy Andres.

Speaker 1 (59:20):
Our theme music is by Doune Deal.

Speaker 2 (59:22):
For more shows from iHeart Podcasts, visit the iHeartRadio app,
Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.