August 29, 2025 • 35 mins
Chisme is the Spanish word for gossip. It happens when you speak about someone in their absence, sharing information that’s supposed to be private and not necessarily factual. But foremost, it is an ancestral tongue that has connected and bonded Latinos for generations.
In this episode of Latino USA, producers Monica Morales-Garcia and Elisa Baena travel deep into a chismosa’s universe with the help of chisme experts from reality TV, entertainment news and academia. Follow them on this journey to understand why chisme is so central in the lives of Latinas and Latinos.
This episode aired originally in April of 2022.
Latino USA is the longest-running news and culture radio program in the U.S., centering Latino stories and hosted by Pulitzer Prize-winning journalist Maria Hinojosa.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:08):
Dear let you know USA listener.
Speaker 2 (00:10):
Before we start, you should know that if you want
to listen to this episode, add free just join and
you can join for as little as seven dollars a month.
Joining also gets you behind the scenes access and yes,
some cheesemay. So click the link in the episode description
and after you do that, then click play.
Speaker 1 (00:32):
Let's go to the show.
Speaker 2 (00:44):
Well, Hello, Hello, Hello, misan Halita's cheesebabe.
Speaker 1 (00:48):
I hope you're ready and rested for your next assignment.
Speaker 3 (00:52):
Of course, we were literally born ready for this.
Speaker 2 (00:55):
Well that's good to know, because I think this Cheesemay
conversation is going to take.
Speaker 1 (00:59):
Us on a wild cry.
Speaker 2 (01:02):
All right, Miss Gueida's Elisa and Monica, you are the
angels of cheeseme a la Charlie's Angels.
Speaker 1 (01:10):
Now, off you go, my little angels of cheese May.
From Futuro Media. It's Latino USA. I'm marieo Hosa.
Speaker 2 (01:21):
Today Cheese Me a month's long investigation into the ancestral
language of gossom, why we love cheese May, why we're
ashamed of it, and why we won't stop making cheese
May anyway. Now we're gonna go on an exploration of
(01:41):
an ancient language that is actually very familiar to many
of you. Cheese Me producers Monica Morales Garcia and Elisa
Mayena dug up the history of cheeseme and found an
essential part of their identities. Here's the story which we
originally brought to you in twenty twenty two. And Esa
(02:02):
heads up, there's some explicit language in this episode. So
I'm here speaking with our Latino USA fellows, Elisa Bayena
and Monica Moreles Garcia, and I think I have a
pretty good idea as to why you brought me here today.
Speaker 1 (02:19):
I think it has to do with it.
Speaker 4 (02:21):
Jeez me, how did you know?
Speaker 1 (02:24):
Well, it's the only thing that you girls have been
talking about, is it? Cheees Me?
Speaker 3 (02:28):
Well, it all started seven months ago on our first
day as Latina USA fellows. It was after our first
team meeting, and because we're working remotely, I'm in southern California,
Elisa is in Miami. We jumped on a Google meet
and almost immediately we began cheese manimal, or how we
say in English gossiping.
Speaker 5 (02:49):
We realized that we were kindred spirits and we immediately
felt comfortable with each other because we felt like we
were taking a risk.
Speaker 1 (02:58):
A risk you mean by talking to each other.
Speaker 3 (03:01):
Yes, a risk to talk about Souda. What else?
Speaker 1 (03:04):
Oh?
Speaker 2 (03:05):
Because it was clearly a cheese man, Okay, I mean.
Speaker 5 (03:08):
It's just something that we fell into without even trying.
So there we are, We're feeling bonded, we're feeling connected,
and then.
Speaker 4 (03:17):
I started to feel guilty.
Speaker 5 (03:19):
I think it has something to do with the fact
that I was raised Catholic. I went to Catholic school
for fourteen years, so I was taught from a very
early age that gossip is harmful.
Speaker 4 (03:32):
And a moral But I still did it all the time.
Speaker 3 (03:35):
Elisa Maria, Can I be brave yet controversial?
Speaker 4 (03:40):
Obviously?
Speaker 6 (03:41):
Okay, I didn't.
Speaker 3 (03:44):
Feel that guilty. Chease me on the about our coworkers. Oh,
we didn't say anything bad about them. With some context,
I was a cousin in the family that had a
bunch of cheese may and me being me, I've always
handled those situations by doubling down. So if someone was
trying to make some judgment and was like, I know,
(04:05):
you moved out to be with your boyfriend, I would
be like, yeah, and a girlfriend too, Like if they
wanted the sun level, I was going to give it.
Speaker 7 (04:13):
To that.
Speaker 4 (04:15):
So, Maria, what is your relationship to cheesse me.
Speaker 2 (04:19):
I think, like you, I kind of love it chees me.
I have very specific memories about sitting with my mom
in the back of our green station wagon with all
six of us driving to Mexico every year from Chicago
in the middle of winter, and the closer we got
to Mexico, the closer it was going to be the
(04:40):
moment when we could say buen o, mamma, ill chees me.
And so it became a way of like really embodying
my mexicanness, you know, because I was growing up as
a kid in Chicago and it was a way that
I was bonding with my mom.
Speaker 3 (04:55):
Hmm. What I'm hearing is that cheese me is a
little bit more complicated than we realize it is.
Speaker 1 (05:02):
I think cheese may is complicated.
Speaker 5 (05:05):
Even though cheeseman, though comes so naturally to us, we've
actually been struggling to define cheese may. So we wanted
to ask you, Mariya, how would you define cheese may.
Speaker 2 (05:15):
Well if you had to translate it the simplest ways
to say, it's gossip. But there's something about cheesemay which
is about storytelling. It's something that is very present in
our reality as Latinos and Latinas in the United States,
and I think that's the way we're looking at it,
or at least that's the way I think you're.
Speaker 1 (05:35):
Going to be looking at it in this conversation.
Speaker 3 (05:37):
Wow, you've literally read our minds.
Speaker 5 (05:41):
I mean, it's hard to define because cheese may can
mean different things to different people in different contexts. But
if we're thinking about cheese may on a very basic level,
it's talking about someone in their absence. So you're sharing
information that you don't necessarily know to be true.
Speaker 4 (05:59):
But the tea is just too hot free to not
spill immediately.
Speaker 3 (06:04):
In that first conversation we had, we were already asking
all those questions, is it good?
Speaker 6 (06:09):
Is it bad?
Speaker 3 (06:10):
How can it be so fun when it's so bad?
And is cheese me the same as rumor?
Speaker 5 (06:16):
We could already feel that as Latina's gossip isn't just gossip,
it's an identity, it's a way of life.
Speaker 3 (06:25):
Well, to get some answers to some of our questions,
we need hardcore data. So in the name of Cheesema science,
we're conducting an experiment where we create achiemy and see
how far it'll spread a cheese may about.
Speaker 8 (06:38):
You, Mania me O, Maria was in the DR for
so long because she was filming a movie with Linn
Men Mel Miranda, and she's going to be the next star,
like a sexy movie Hustlers or something.
Speaker 2 (06:55):
What I thought you were gonna say was Maria was
in the Dominican Republic so long. We think she just
had a baby. Okay, Well, I want to hear the
other ideas.
Speaker 3 (07:11):
We didn't have any other ideas.
Speaker 6 (07:13):
Those were all of our ideas.
Speaker 5 (07:17):
But I think I have something, Madia. So you know
how you have this big, bouncy, voluminous hair.
Speaker 1 (07:25):
Yes, it's all about the hair and the hoops.
Speaker 5 (07:27):
Yes, so if we see it, it's always done up.
But if we don't see it, it's always wrapped up
in a turmine. So how about we make people believe
that your big bouncy locks actually don't belong to you.
Speaker 4 (07:43):
It's not your real hair. It's a wig.
Speaker 1 (07:47):
You know.
Speaker 2 (07:47):
I have my tricks as to how I make it voluminous,
but I could see how that could potentially work.
Speaker 1 (07:53):
Mm hmm.
Speaker 3 (07:55):
So this is what we're gonna do. Since we have
more questions and answers, I think we're gonna go on
a little bit of a cheese macquest, and to do that,
we're gonna have to speak to some cheesema experts from
different fields to find out why cheese met is so
central to our lives as a latinas.
Speaker 5 (08:13):
And finally, we're gonna get a little bit sneaky and
talk to the team to see if this wig cheese
met lights up.
Speaker 2 (08:20):
Like Firela when Monica, So, you have your assignment. You've
pried a lot out of me regarding cheesemas so far,
and I'm very intrigada.
Speaker 1 (08:34):
I'm using the cheese my voice.
Speaker 2 (08:36):
I'm very intrigued about what you're gonna come up with
in your journey into a cheese me. So off you
go and I'll see you on the other side, Mama.
Speaker 5 (08:50):
When we first set off on our cheese mac quest,
Monica and I realize that we had something else in common.
We're both huge fans of The Real Housewives.
Speaker 6 (09:00):
Gus, I've heard that.
Speaker 9 (09:01):
And soone did this table has been talking about how
her bead you didn't come as a friend at all.
Speaker 10 (09:06):
You're done.
Speaker 5 (09:07):
So It's a reality TV franchise on Bravo that follows
the everyday lives of wealthy women from different areas, So
think lots of dinner parties, workout classes, international vacations, shopping
trips obviously, but of course they look really good and
really expensive, very expensive.
Speaker 3 (09:28):
And while Lisa and I were watching the new season
of The Real Housewives of Miami What are you talking about?
Speaker 1 (09:35):
On You Know It?
Speaker 4 (09:36):
We had an epiphany.
Speaker 5 (09:37):
We thought maybe we love housewives because chiefment is everything
on the show. We realized it's used as a narrative device,
so it creates storylines and builds so much tension that
a screaming match is the most appropriate form of conflict resolution.
Speaker 3 (09:55):
So we set up a conversation with two Real Housewives
of Miami, Marisol Patton and Alexia Chevarria.
Speaker 9 (10:04):
So today starring on this show is my best friend
Alexi Cheria Santra Mohito, carrier of the Real Housewives of Miami.
Speaker 10 (10:13):
Thank you for that beautiful introduction, And on the other
side we have my best friend Marisol.
Speaker 5 (10:22):
We want to set the scene really quick. Marisola is
laying on her couch like horizontally with a beat face
and a high pony, and Alexia is sitting in the
living room of her palatial two story penthouse with a
beach view.
Speaker 3 (10:36):
There have only been a few latinas across the Real
Housewives franchise, except on the Real Housewives of Miami, and
as we were watching the show, it became obvious that
there were parallels between how Shei's mosas and how housewives
are perceived, as they're scene as tacky, simple minded and flamboyant.
Speaker 4 (10:56):
Should I introduce you as.
Speaker 6 (10:59):
No know, because the only thing that we are not
is jim Moosa.
Speaker 11 (11:03):
I know about that because we live in Miami and
pet Centro exactly I like to call it. We share information, yes,
and when it's amongst us good friends, it's not cheesemay,
It's just information and we need to be educated.
Speaker 5 (11:19):
So do you think that Latina women have a reputation
of gossiping more than non Latinas.
Speaker 10 (11:25):
I know they're all terrible, I know, But she's asking
if you think they have a reputation.
Speaker 4 (11:30):
I think yes.
Speaker 10 (11:30):
I think we're stereotyped because it comes from history, like from.
Speaker 6 (11:33):
Back in the day, more than gring us.
Speaker 2 (11:36):
Yea.
Speaker 10 (11:36):
At the end of the day, if you're a woman,
you're a chimosa. Oh wait, but there's meg. I know
some men get so much emoso. It's crazy, Like when
there's a guy that's such amoso, like be careful, like
they're like the worst.
Speaker 3 (11:52):
They are the worst. So why do you think that
cheese may is so addicting?
Speaker 9 (11:57):
I think it's a mindless conversation. It's the easiest conversation
for anyone to have. You're not talking about politics, religion.
You don't have to be educated to chimyad. Anybody across
the board can make a comment about somebody else and
another person will jump in and they get into it, right,
you know, all so white.
Speaker 10 (12:15):
It's so easy because you're not talking.
Speaker 4 (12:16):
Or chimiando about yourself.
Speaker 6 (12:18):
You're doing about somebody else.
Speaker 10 (12:19):
So it's so easy to talk about somebody you don't
even know.
Speaker 4 (12:22):
That's why we all do it.
Speaker 6 (12:23):
I'm staying quiet.
Speaker 9 (12:24):
Stop saying we all do it like you're waiting for
me to jump in.
Speaker 6 (12:28):
Haha.
Speaker 5 (12:32):
Alexia's family drama was carrying this last season.
Speaker 4 (12:36):
Her now husband Todd.
Speaker 5 (12:38):
Who she said is the first gringo she's ever kissed,
by the way, had a huge blowout with her son.
Speaker 10 (12:44):
What I say that you're a loser, Yeah, but you're
gonna wind up in jail.
Speaker 1 (12:48):
Yeah, yeah, you.
Speaker 3 (12:48):
Don't get Alexias said herself that this fight was the
worst moment in her life, and it's out there for
anyone in the world to watch and form an opinion about.
Speaker 4 (13:00):
Alexia.
Speaker 5 (13:01):
You've been a reality TV star and a public figure
for over a decade now. You could say that part
of your job is to humiliate yourself on TV because
you're exposing your real life drama as plot points.
Speaker 4 (13:15):
What was that like this last season?
Speaker 10 (13:17):
For me? It hasn't been humiliating at all. As a
matter of fact, I think it's been therapeutic and healing
because these were cheesemads that were always said about me
and my family. And now I'm like, you know what, guys,
it's my story, not a chieve man anymore. Like this
is what it is. This is my time now to
say it how it is and share it with the
world and hopefully me being an inspiration for people not
(13:38):
to be ashamed, to be proud of who you are
and of your life experiences and to.
Speaker 4 (13:42):
Learn from them.
Speaker 10 (13:43):
And you know what, sometimes you got to put those
cheesements to rest.
Speaker 6 (13:47):
You can't let other people control your achievement.
Speaker 9 (13:49):
Right, Alexia, Right exactly, that's your story.
Speaker 5 (13:55):
So there's something else we wanted to ask you about.
We wanted it to come to you for some professional advice.
Speaker 9 (14:03):
Yes, oh, because we're the expert chiemosas that you have
to come to us.
Speaker 10 (14:08):
We have a lot of experience in get the demo,
so yes, tell us.
Speaker 4 (14:11):
How can we help you? So we started a cheese
may about.
Speaker 3 (14:15):
Our boss that her hair isn't her real hair, it's
a wig.
Speaker 1 (14:20):
A wig.
Speaker 9 (14:20):
That's boring, Feluca, that's not a good one. Why do
you say she has like a fake leg or something?
Does she wear a lot of pants?
Speaker 7 (14:29):
Well?
Speaker 10 (14:30):
Trying to keep their job.
Speaker 4 (14:31):
Remember it's their boss.
Speaker 10 (14:32):
Okay, it depends, you know, the achievement depends on who
the person is. But this is like their boss, so
they can't be you know, they can't take it overboardon.
Speaker 6 (14:40):
I don't know. You got to come up with something
more exciting than a peluga.
Speaker 3 (14:43):
Oh my god, I would never let.
Speaker 6 (14:46):
Me tell you something.
Speaker 9 (14:46):
The best achievement, I think is when you look someone
in the eyes and you sound convincing.
Speaker 10 (14:50):
Ooh, you sound like an expert Marazol. And then you
didn't want me to call you the g mossa.
Speaker 6 (14:55):
I just play one on TV.
Speaker 2 (15:00):
Coming up on Latino USA, our cheesemay Angels continued their
investigation into how gossip has shaped their identity as Latinas
and the steaks surrounding their cheeseme start to build as
they travel further into a Chice Moosas universe.
Speaker 1 (15:17):
Stay with us, not the bays.
Speaker 2 (15:27):
Hey, We're back and before the break, producers Monica Morales
Garcia and Elisa Bayena launched their quest to understand the
significance of cheese ma or gossip what it means for
the US Latino experience. They started by talking to some
professional cheese mosas the Real Housewives of Miami, but they
(15:50):
didn't stop there. Here are Monica and Elisa once again
with cheese May.
Speaker 5 (15:57):
Monica the Miami Housewife really wanted us to form with
our cheesemak experiment.
Speaker 3 (16:04):
Fake leg Aside, they did have some interesting points. The
best cheesemut does require a little bit of work, and
in order for our cheese me to be convincing, there
has to be a body of supporting evidence so that
it fits into a larger story.
Speaker 5 (16:19):
I think that I know someone who's really good at
getting straight to the source, and like the housewives, she's
also paid to chease me out on TV.
Speaker 12 (16:30):
Hi, everybody, I am Lelana Vascas. Formerly I was the
anchor for E News. I've been in Access Hollywood. I
spent seven years at The Today Show, and I think
most people really know me from my years as a
style expert on daytime TV.
Speaker 3 (16:45):
Ooh, so, why is celebrity cheese may such big business?
Speaker 12 (16:50):
I think people sometimes forget that these celebrities are true brands,
and there is a machine that is there to protect
that brand, and they want to control the narrative. They
want to really control when a story breaks, how it breaks,
how much you know about that story. And it's not
(17:11):
just them, the media is also in on it. I've
gotten a call ten minutes before I'm about to go
on air that's like, we're killing this story because so
and so's person called and they don't want to talk
about it. Or you got this sound bite an interview.
They want it gone, and I'm like, well, I don't
want it gone. They're like, right, well, we've got to
play the game. What you're hearing is a water down
(17:31):
version because you're talking about millions of not billions of
dollars at stake here.
Speaker 4 (17:36):
So just like there's big tech, there's big cheese meath.
Speaker 12 (17:42):
I mean, cheese me is what makes the world go round.
Speaker 3 (17:45):
So what do you think the relationship between cheeseman and storytelling.
Speaker 12 (17:49):
Is storytelling is just refined cheese myth. And it kind
of makes sense that I went into this field because
I want to know the stories, I want to ask
the questions, and I haven't ability to tell a story live.
That is really unique to me, and that is because
I think I've practiced it for so long in front
(18:11):
of my cousins at the dinner table, like at the
Godness Sada at the Quinsignia. And there's a way that
you tell the tieesement that gets everybody engaged and brings
everyone into the conversation. And if you are the one
leading that, there definitely is a performance aspect of that.
Speaker 4 (18:27):
No, totally. The delivery is super.
Speaker 12 (18:29):
Important because when you're telling it to an audience, you
want to be gentle, you want to give it pause,
you want to get the reactions because based on their reactions,
what's the next part of the story that you're going
to reveal? And are you going to tease it out?
Are you going to leave them wanting more? Are you
going to get up, go get a drink of water
so that they're like, come back, come back. And that's essential,
(18:50):
you know, as a host, as somebody who works on camera,
to be able to do that, it's a very critical
skill to have and not everybody can do it.
Speaker 3 (19:03):
So we took Leniana's advice and used our best storytelling
skills to share our little experiment with her.
Speaker 4 (19:09):
And like the housewives, she was not impressed.
Speaker 12 (19:13):
No girl next level say that she was just vacationing
at Mara a Lago, not mar A Lago. Oh my god,
that's the mic drop.
Speaker 3 (19:24):
That's it right there. So it turns out that cheesemak
can influence anything from the media that we consume to
the products that we buy. And meanwhile there are people getting.
Speaker 4 (19:37):
Rich from our thirst for cheese.
Speaker 10 (19:39):
Man.
Speaker 5 (19:40):
Yeah, I mean, if celebrities are brands, cheese may feeds
the beast.
Speaker 3 (19:44):
So it's clear that cheesemay can be really influential, and
maybe it has been that way forever. I feel like
we need to dive into the role of cheesement throughout history.
Speaker 7 (19:56):
My name is Anna Dadriguez Navas. I am an assistiate
pfessor of Latin American literature and culture at Leola, Chicago,
and my most recent book is a book on gossip,
which is why we're here.
Speaker 5 (20:10):
So the tora in your book idle Talk, Deadly Talk.
You look at how gossip in the Caribbean isn't just
a tool, it's a weapon. So while it can build communities,
it can also destabilize them. And something that you also
get into is a difference between the etymology of gossip
and cheese may. I'm wondering if you could tell us
(20:31):
a little bit more about that.
Speaker 7 (20:33):
So in English we use the word gossip pretty indistinguishably
from the Spanish cheese mate, right, but at its origin
they're very different. So the word gossip comes from gossip,
which basically means mavrina. So the word gossip is rooted
in kinship, in that kind of chatter or talk between
god parents. It describes a specific act, whereas cheese may
(20:55):
for us, in Spanish, the origin of the word is
much more oppositional. It derives they're from the word for
that bug, which is obviously an unpleasant, nasty creature, or
the word for schism, which can mean division, rupture, break.
Speaker 5 (21:11):
This really surprised me because cheese made to me, has
more of a positive connotation than gossip. Another distinction that
you make in your book is that the terms gossip
and rumor are often used interchangeably, but that doesn't mean
that they're identical. So with rumors, you don't necessarily know
where they're coming from, and they tend to be more conspiratorial.
(21:33):
But gossip has almost more credibility because it's more personal
and it's transmitted from one person to the next, so
it's the whole You know, you didn't hear this from me, but.
Speaker 7 (21:46):
Yes, exactly. Gossip is very, very, very elastic, and it's
really hard to overstate how different it can be and
how much it changes while still being recognizable as gossip.
Speaker 3 (21:57):
So look, Doda, we've actually been speaking to several professional chizmosas,
and now that I'm thinking about it, we've only wanted
to talk to women, and we never even bothered to
ask why that was. I'm starting to think that it
might have something to do with the internalized belief that
we gossip more or Gela Muherres almost mass chizmosis. But
(22:19):
where does that belief even come from.
Speaker 7 (22:22):
Historically, there's been that suggestion that real men quote unquote
don't gossip, So where does that come from? Well, women
were historically excluded from the public sphere. We weren't the
ones writing in newspapers or doing the public speaking, or
attended political meetings. So it's in the private sphere where
we found our voice. But it's also important to recognize
(22:44):
that women were not the only one's gossip. What happens
is that men use their public speech to label women's
private speech as inferior, while ignoring their own private speech
or not acknowledging what they're doing as a form of gossip.
Speaker 5 (22:59):
Too interesting, So is that maybe why women have been
told that gossiping is bad and something that we should
feel guilty about doing.
Speaker 7 (23:09):
You know, gossip is something that we all do. But
what happens is that when people talk about gossip, it's
not respectable or something that is a terrible thing to do.
It's really what you're seeing as an attempt to police
other people's gossip and to dismiss their voice.
Speaker 3 (23:24):
Exactly, And as you explore in your research, this isn't
something new. So throughout history, what has been the relationship
between gossip and power.
Speaker 7 (23:35):
Gossip has been historically a brush used by the oppressor
to paint the oppressed. So it's happened with indigenous men
with peasants and farmers with gay people, all of whom
have been talked about as being lazy, good for nothing,
gossip wers. But what is happening in those cases is
that those in power are first excluding those groups from
(23:58):
public discourse and then disqualifying their private discourse as nothing
but gossip.
Speaker 4 (24:03):
Oh okay, I see how it is.
Speaker 5 (24:07):
So can you give us an example of what that
looks like In Latin America.
Speaker 7 (24:11):
Whether it's slavery or colonization or dictatorships, our region has
been marked, unfortunately, by systems of power that don't represent
large sectors of the population, precisely because gossip is illicit
and furtive. It is a way for people to circumvent
those controls. They're able to challenge official versions of events,
(24:32):
to say what they think really happen, and to circulate
important knowledge to preserve their voices and their experiences.
Speaker 4 (24:40):
Yeah, I mean this is really resonating with me.
Speaker 5 (24:43):
In the afternoons, I used to sit in the sala
of my childhood home with my visa weelas and they would,
you know, tell me a lot of stories. There's usually
a lot of cautionary tales, sometimes about men, but also
about government repression in Cuba. So it is affirming to
know that that is also a form of cheese made.
Speaker 7 (25:04):
Gossip is a fundamental part of the kind of information
control of repressive political systems, and it sort of works
both ways. It can be extremely beneficial and it can
be extremely repressive. So, for instance, if someone gossip's with
you and tells you, hey, be careful with the neighbor
turns out that he's connected to the authorities, you know
(25:25):
that if you want to be safe, you're not going
to tell anything that might jeopardize you or your family
to this neighbor, right, anything that is against the government.
Speaker 5 (25:35):
This reminds me of the comites in Cuba, which are
basically networks of cheese muscles whose job is to snitch
on their neighbors to the government if they see or
hear or suspect of any illegal activity.
Speaker 7 (25:54):
Yes, that's a perfect example of that. That's one, and
there are many, and this sadly continues to happen. And
I want to point out that in this example we're
talking about men right all the way.
Speaker 6 (26:05):
Yes, all the way.
Speaker 3 (26:06):
It's always the man.
Speaker 7 (26:10):
Gossip for us in the diaspora, is a really important
way to reclaim stories that are at risk. So, for instance,
if you think about family gossip, it's not just chatter.
It's also a way of preserving something important or reclaiming
lost memories, lost history, of filling out silences. There's a
kind of oral history of the community that is authentic
that emerges from gossip.
Speaker 2 (26:38):
We'll be right back, Yes, hey, we're back. Producers Monica
Morales Garcia and Elisa Bayena have the rest of the story.
Speaker 5 (26:56):
Monica, I think I'm having a moment. Oh my God,
tell me. For maybe selfish reasons, my main goal in
this quest has been to demystify Chiese May because obviously
I'm very desperate to drop my guilt. But I think
that it's distracted me from seeing how Cheese May has
actually helped me form and craft my Cuban American identity.
(27:20):
How So, when I think about when I feel the
most Latina, it's when I'm Chiasmanlo with my Theas and
my cousins. It's late at night, everybody's defenses are down,
and that's when I'm not trying to check my Miami accent.
Speaker 4 (27:35):
Because I think it makes me sound less educated or something.
Speaker 3 (27:39):
You know, I've only recently been able to think of
myself as respectable, and I think a lot of that
is because so much of my Latinx identity is deeply
tied with class and gender and my experience in being
this working class, flamboyant chi they Latina with a huge butt.
I know that my words have never really carried much weight,
(28:01):
but it has been that act of dismissal that has
always fueled my desire to just own my truths own
my cheese, miss because for me, there's been nothing more
powerful than just living in my truth.
Speaker 2 (28:21):
All Right, welcome back, Nissa Helite's the cheese Man. So
how did the assignment go?
Speaker 3 (28:27):
We have so much to share, my god?
Speaker 5 (28:31):
Okay, So we first talked to two reality TV stars
from the Real Housewives of Miami and they had some
interesting suggestions about our Cheesema.
Speaker 6 (28:41):
Maria Luca, that's not a good one.
Speaker 9 (28:45):
Why do you say she has like a fake leg
or something.
Speaker 2 (28:48):
Okay, that's like the craziest thing I've ever heard that
what's easier to make people believe is that I have
a fake leg, not that I'm using weight.
Speaker 3 (28:56):
Our second expert was an entertainment journalist, and she wanted
us to take it even.
Speaker 12 (29:02):
Further say that she was just vacationing at mar A Lago.
Speaker 2 (29:09):
Wow, I think she knows me because to that one,
that's some pretty serious cheesement that could destroy my career.
Speaker 3 (29:18):
Good thing. We spoke to our last expert, Lo Toro
riaz Neavz, who reminded us that cheesemut is supposed to
be organic, it's not supposed to be fabricated. So in
this case, our experiment took an unexpected turn.
Speaker 2 (29:31):
Okay, I'm totally confused and intrigued. Now I want to
know what happened.
Speaker 4 (29:35):
Okay, So.
Speaker 5 (29:37):
What we're saying is that we didn't end up telling
anybody on our team that you wear a wig.
Speaker 1 (29:42):
Oh.
Speaker 3 (29:44):
We learned that the space where cheesemu happens is really
vital because you need to build that intimacy and confienza.
You got to look people in the eye. But because
we're all working remotely, we realize that spreading the cheese
may wasn't really going to happen as naturally as we wanted.
Speaker 2 (30:04):
In other words, cheese may has actually taken a hit
during the pandemic.
Speaker 3 (30:08):
It was a really unexpected loss.
Speaker 2 (30:11):
I did wonder, how do you start cheesemaup when you're
not all in the office, So yeah, the pandemic hit again.
Speaker 5 (30:17):
We were also just thinking what if we did start
spreading this cheesemail. What if we started having meetings with
other producers and we were like, hey, guess what, Madia's
hair is fake? What if that was an invitation for
them to say some really mean, nasty things about your hair.
Speaker 2 (30:34):
The thing about cheese may is that it can go dark,
it can get cruel, and it can be used as
a takedown.
Speaker 4 (30:42):
Yeah.
Speaker 5 (30:42):
I mean, we also have to remember that cheese may
is a way that belief systems are built and also maintained. So,
for example, if I'm talking to Una Senora and she's
gossiping to me about how someone gained weight and she's
framing it as something shameful, that she is not going
to be fun for me because body shaming is against
(31:05):
my personal ethical code.
Speaker 2 (31:08):
And so that is the other side of cheesema where
we can be laughing and joking. But then it's like,
oh uh, there was a crossover right there, and I
understand that that would have been hard. Also if anybody
said anything bad about my hair, I'd have to come
at them, not just kidding.
Speaker 5 (31:28):
So even though we didn't end up spreading the wig Cheesemay,
I think that we still came out on top because
we had a breakthrough. We learned that we'd come from
a long line of cheese malsas who like us, knew
that gossip isn't just silly women's talk. It deserves more
respect because it can be a tool for resistance.
Speaker 3 (31:49):
Yes exactly, it's an ancestral language, a save for cheesemad
right there. And you know, this experiment has made us
realize that it's not even so much what we're cheeseman
though about, but rather the connection that cheese May is creating.
Speaker 12 (32:08):
My ps and I live such different lives and sometimes
it's hard to find things to talk about, but we
can always talk about Talia always. Cheese May creates commonalities
for us to discuss and discuss passionately and energetically and
have fun together.
Speaker 7 (32:26):
Gossip, for us is a real important connective tissue, connecting
us us Latinas to Latin America, connecting us within our communities. Right,
it can be a bridge so that sense of belonging,
that sense of being part of that community is heightened
with the gossip.
Speaker 6 (32:45):
I don't know, this is like a therapy session.
Speaker 1 (32:49):
See that's it.
Speaker 10 (32:50):
You know.
Speaker 2 (32:50):
For me, cheese may is like bonding in particular with
family and joy and storytelling. I mean when I understood
that what my mom was doing during the time that
we were Cheesemando was actually telling me great stories, it was.
Speaker 1 (33:09):
A turning point for me.
Speaker 2 (33:10):
I was like, wait, I'm a storyteller too, and that
basically changed my whole life.
Speaker 5 (33:16):
I think I'm hearing that since we're all professional storytellers,
were also professional chiese mosas. And you know what, that
is nothing to be ashamed of. It is what gives
us our power.
Speaker 3 (33:32):
Ooh yes, our powers.
Speaker 2 (33:34):
It's official because this sientific, asad cheese May have told us.
So Elisa, Monica, your assignment is now complete. I am
blessing you to go off to cheese me Are until
you can't anymore, and that you're spreading the gospel of
Cheesemare's resistance. So until your next assignment, off you go,
(33:55):
my little Angels of Cheesemas. This episode was produced by
Monica Moralis Garcia and Elisa Maena. It was edited by
Marta Martinez and mixed by Stephanie Leveaux and Julia Caruso.
Thenanda Echavari is our managing editor. The Latino USA team
(34:18):
also includes Froxanna Guire, Jessica Ellis, Victoria Strada, Renaldo Leanos Junior,
Andrea Lopez Cruzado, Louis Luna, Dori mar Marquez, Lugeta Martinelli,
JJ Carubin, Adrena Rodriez.
Speaker 1 (34:31):
And Nancy Trujillo.
Speaker 2 (34:32):
Nilee Ramirez and I are co executive producers and I'm
your host Mariano Rosa. Latino USA is part of Iheart's
Mike Utura podcast network. Executive producers at iHeart are Leogo
Miz and Arlene Santana.
Speaker 1 (34:46):
Join us again on our next episode.
Speaker 2 (34:48):
In the meantime, I'll see you on all of our
social media and don't forget, dear listener, Join Futuro Plus.
Speaker 1 (34:55):
You get to listen to the episode.
Speaker 2 (34:57):
Ad free and get bonus episodes and yes, some behind
the scenes cheese men, and you'll be supporting Futuro Media,
which we know you love.
Speaker 1 (35:07):
Estella Proxima c
Speaker 3 (35:08):
Chao Latino USA is made possible in part by Skyline
Foundation the Ford Foundation, working with visionaries on the front
lines of social change worldwide, and Michelle Mercer and Bruce
Golden
Dear let you know USA listener.
Speaker 2 (00:10):
Before we start, you should know that if you want
to listen to this episode, add free just join and
you can join for as little as seven dollars a month.
Joining also gets you behind the scenes access and yes,
some cheesemay. So click the link in the episode description
and after you do that, then click play.
Speaker 1 (00:32):
Let's go to the show.
Speaker 2 (00:44):
Well, Hello, Hello, Hello, misan Halita's cheesebabe.
Speaker 1 (00:48):
I hope you're ready and rested for your next assignment.
Speaker 3 (00:52):
Of course, we were literally born ready for this.
Speaker 2 (00:55):
Well that's good to know, because I think this Cheesemay
conversation is going to take.
Speaker 1 (00:59):
Us on a wild cry.
Speaker 2 (01:02):
All right, Miss Gueida's Elisa and Monica, you are the
angels of cheeseme a la Charlie's Angels.
Speaker 1 (01:10):
Now, off you go, my little angels of cheese May.
From Futuro Media. It's Latino USA. I'm marieo Hosa.
Speaker 2 (01:21):
Today Cheese Me a month's long investigation into the ancestral
language of gossom, why we love cheese May, why we're
ashamed of it, and why we won't stop making cheese
May anyway. Now we're gonna go on an exploration of
(01:41):
an ancient language that is actually very familiar to many
of you. Cheese Me producers Monica Morales Garcia and Elisa
Mayena dug up the history of cheeseme and found an
essential part of their identities. Here's the story which we
originally brought to you in twenty twenty two. And Esa
(02:02):
heads up, there's some explicit language in this episode. So
I'm here speaking with our Latino USA fellows, Elisa Bayena
and Monica Moreles Garcia, and I think I have a
pretty good idea as to why you brought me here today.
Speaker 1 (02:19):
I think it has to do with it.
Speaker 4 (02:21):
Jeez me, how did you know?
Speaker 1 (02:24):
Well, it's the only thing that you girls have been
talking about, is it? Cheees Me?
Speaker 3 (02:28):
Well, it all started seven months ago on our first
day as Latina USA fellows. It was after our first
team meeting, and because we're working remotely, I'm in southern California,
Elisa is in Miami. We jumped on a Google meet
and almost immediately we began cheese manimal, or how we
say in English gossiping.
Speaker 5 (02:49):
We realized that we were kindred spirits and we immediately
felt comfortable with each other because we felt like we
were taking a risk.
Speaker 1 (02:58):
A risk you mean by talking to each other.
Speaker 3 (03:01):
Yes, a risk to talk about Souda. What else?
Speaker 1 (03:04):
Oh?
Speaker 2 (03:05):
Because it was clearly a cheese man, Okay, I mean.
Speaker 5 (03:08):
It's just something that we fell into without even trying.
So there we are, We're feeling bonded, we're feeling connected,
and then.
Speaker 4 (03:17):
I started to feel guilty.
Speaker 5 (03:19):
I think it has something to do with the fact
that I was raised Catholic. I went to Catholic school
for fourteen years, so I was taught from a very
early age that gossip is harmful.
Speaker 4 (03:32):
And a moral But I still did it all the time.
Speaker 3 (03:35):
Elisa Maria, Can I be brave yet controversial?
Speaker 4 (03:40):
Obviously?
Speaker 6 (03:41):
Okay, I didn't.
Speaker 3 (03:44):
Feel that guilty. Chease me on the about our coworkers. Oh,
we didn't say anything bad about them. With some context,
I was a cousin in the family that had a
bunch of cheese may and me being me, I've always
handled those situations by doubling down. So if someone was
trying to make some judgment and was like, I know,
(04:05):
you moved out to be with your boyfriend, I would
be like, yeah, and a girlfriend too, Like if they
wanted the sun level, I was going to give it.
Speaker 7 (04:13):
To that.
Speaker 4 (04:15):
So, Maria, what is your relationship to cheesse me.
Speaker 2 (04:19):
I think, like you, I kind of love it chees me.
I have very specific memories about sitting with my mom
in the back of our green station wagon with all
six of us driving to Mexico every year from Chicago
in the middle of winter, and the closer we got
to Mexico, the closer it was going to be the
(04:40):
moment when we could say buen o, mamma, ill chees me.
And so it became a way of like really embodying
my mexicanness, you know, because I was growing up as
a kid in Chicago and it was a way that
I was bonding with my mom.
Speaker 3 (04:55):
Hmm. What I'm hearing is that cheese me is a
little bit more complicated than we realize it is.
Speaker 1 (05:02):
I think cheese may is complicated.
Speaker 5 (05:05):
Even though cheeseman, though comes so naturally to us, we've
actually been struggling to define cheese may. So we wanted
to ask you, Mariya, how would you define cheese may.
Speaker 2 (05:15):
Well if you had to translate it the simplest ways
to say, it's gossip. But there's something about cheesemay which
is about storytelling. It's something that is very present in
our reality as Latinos and Latinas in the United States,
and I think that's the way we're looking at it,
or at least that's the way I think you're.
Speaker 1 (05:35):
Going to be looking at it in this conversation.
Speaker 3 (05:37):
Wow, you've literally read our minds.
Speaker 5 (05:41):
I mean, it's hard to define because cheese may can
mean different things to different people in different contexts. But
if we're thinking about cheese may on a very basic level,
it's talking about someone in their absence. So you're sharing
information that you don't necessarily know to be true.
Speaker 4 (05:59):
But the tea is just too hot free to not
spill immediately.
Speaker 3 (06:04):
In that first conversation we had, we were already asking
all those questions, is it good?
Speaker 6 (06:09):
Is it bad?
Speaker 3 (06:10):
How can it be so fun when it's so bad?
And is cheese me the same as rumor?
Speaker 5 (06:16):
We could already feel that as Latina's gossip isn't just gossip,
it's an identity, it's a way of life.
Speaker 3 (06:25):
Well, to get some answers to some of our questions,
we need hardcore data. So in the name of Cheesema science,
we're conducting an experiment where we create achiemy and see
how far it'll spread a cheese may about.
Speaker 8 (06:38):
You, Mania me O, Maria was in the DR for
so long because she was filming a movie with Linn
Men Mel Miranda, and she's going to be the next star,
like a sexy movie Hustlers or something.
Speaker 2 (06:55):
What I thought you were gonna say was Maria was
in the Dominican Republic so long. We think she just
had a baby. Okay, Well, I want to hear the
other ideas.
Speaker 3 (07:11):
We didn't have any other ideas.
Speaker 6 (07:13):
Those were all of our ideas.
Speaker 5 (07:17):
But I think I have something, Madia. So you know
how you have this big, bouncy, voluminous hair.
Speaker 1 (07:25):
Yes, it's all about the hair and the hoops.
Speaker 5 (07:27):
Yes, so if we see it, it's always done up.
But if we don't see it, it's always wrapped up
in a turmine. So how about we make people believe
that your big bouncy locks actually don't belong to you.
Speaker 4 (07:43):
It's not your real hair. It's a wig.
Speaker 1 (07:47):
You know.
Speaker 2 (07:47):
I have my tricks as to how I make it voluminous,
but I could see how that could potentially work.
Speaker 1 (07:53):
Mm hmm.
Speaker 3 (07:55):
So this is what we're gonna do. Since we have
more questions and answers, I think we're gonna go on
a little bit of a cheese macquest, and to do that,
we're gonna have to speak to some cheesema experts from
different fields to find out why cheese met is so
central to our lives as a latinas.
Speaker 5 (08:13):
And finally, we're gonna get a little bit sneaky and
talk to the team to see if this wig cheese
met lights up.
Speaker 2 (08:20):
Like Firela when Monica, So, you have your assignment. You've
pried a lot out of me regarding cheesemas so far,
and I'm very intrigada.
Speaker 1 (08:34):
I'm using the cheese my voice.
Speaker 2 (08:36):
I'm very intrigued about what you're gonna come up with
in your journey into a cheese me. So off you
go and I'll see you on the other side, Mama.
Speaker 5 (08:50):
When we first set off on our cheese mac quest,
Monica and I realize that we had something else in common.
We're both huge fans of The Real Housewives.
Speaker 6 (09:00):
Gus, I've heard that.
Speaker 9 (09:01):
And soone did this table has been talking about how
her bead you didn't come as a friend at all.
Speaker 10 (09:06):
You're done.
Speaker 5 (09:07):
So It's a reality TV franchise on Bravo that follows
the everyday lives of wealthy women from different areas, So
think lots of dinner parties, workout classes, international vacations, shopping
trips obviously, but of course they look really good and
really expensive, very expensive.
Speaker 3 (09:28):
And while Lisa and I were watching the new season
of The Real Housewives of Miami What are you talking about?
Speaker 1 (09:35):
On You Know It?
Speaker 4 (09:36):
We had an epiphany.
Speaker 5 (09:37):
We thought maybe we love housewives because chiefment is everything
on the show. We realized it's used as a narrative device,
so it creates storylines and builds so much tension that
a screaming match is the most appropriate form of conflict resolution.
Speaker 3 (09:55):
So we set up a conversation with two Real Housewives
of Miami, Marisol Patton and Alexia Chevarria.
Speaker 9 (10:04):
So today starring on this show is my best friend
Alexi Cheria Santra Mohito, carrier of the Real Housewives of Miami.
Speaker 10 (10:13):
Thank you for that beautiful introduction, And on the other
side we have my best friend Marisol.
Speaker 5 (10:22):
We want to set the scene really quick. Marisola is
laying on her couch like horizontally with a beat face
and a high pony, and Alexia is sitting in the
living room of her palatial two story penthouse with a
beach view.
Speaker 3 (10:36):
There have only been a few latinas across the Real
Housewives franchise, except on the Real Housewives of Miami, and
as we were watching the show, it became obvious that
there were parallels between how Shei's mosas and how housewives
are perceived, as they're scene as tacky, simple minded and flamboyant.
Speaker 4 (10:56):
Should I introduce you as.
Speaker 6 (10:59):
No know, because the only thing that we are not
is jim Moosa.
Speaker 11 (11:03):
I know about that because we live in Miami and
pet Centro exactly I like to call it. We share information, yes,
and when it's amongst us good friends, it's not cheesemay,
It's just information and we need to be educated.
Speaker 5 (11:19):
So do you think that Latina women have a reputation
of gossiping more than non Latinas.
Speaker 10 (11:25):
I know they're all terrible, I know, But she's asking
if you think they have a reputation.
Speaker 4 (11:30):
I think yes.
Speaker 10 (11:30):
I think we're stereotyped because it comes from history, like from.
Speaker 6 (11:33):
Back in the day, more than gring us.
Speaker 2 (11:36):
Yea.
Speaker 10 (11:36):
At the end of the day, if you're a woman,
you're a chimosa. Oh wait, but there's meg. I know
some men get so much emoso. It's crazy, Like when
there's a guy that's such amoso, like be careful, like
they're like the worst.
Speaker 3 (11:52):
They are the worst. So why do you think that
cheese may is so addicting?
Speaker 9 (11:57):
I think it's a mindless conversation. It's the easiest conversation
for anyone to have. You're not talking about politics, religion.
You don't have to be educated to chimyad. Anybody across
the board can make a comment about somebody else and
another person will jump in and they get into it, right,
you know, all so white.
Speaker 10 (12:15):
It's so easy because you're not talking.
Speaker 4 (12:16):
Or chimiando about yourself.
Speaker 6 (12:18):
You're doing about somebody else.
Speaker 10 (12:19):
So it's so easy to talk about somebody you don't
even know.
Speaker 4 (12:22):
That's why we all do it.
Speaker 6 (12:23):
I'm staying quiet.
Speaker 9 (12:24):
Stop saying we all do it like you're waiting for
me to jump in.
Speaker 6 (12:28):
Haha.
Speaker 5 (12:32):
Alexia's family drama was carrying this last season.
Speaker 4 (12:36):
Her now husband Todd.
Speaker 5 (12:38):
Who she said is the first gringo she's ever kissed,
by the way, had a huge blowout with her son.
Speaker 10 (12:44):
What I say that you're a loser, Yeah, but you're
gonna wind up in jail.
Speaker 1 (12:48):
Yeah, yeah, you.
Speaker 3 (12:48):
Don't get Alexias said herself that this fight was the
worst moment in her life, and it's out there for
anyone in the world to watch and form an opinion about.
Speaker 4 (13:00):
Alexia.
Speaker 5 (13:01):
You've been a reality TV star and a public figure
for over a decade now. You could say that part
of your job is to humiliate yourself on TV because
you're exposing your real life drama as plot points.
Speaker 4 (13:15):
What was that like this last season?
Speaker 10 (13:17):
For me? It hasn't been humiliating at all. As a
matter of fact, I think it's been therapeutic and healing
because these were cheesemads that were always said about me
and my family. And now I'm like, you know what, guys,
it's my story, not a chieve man anymore. Like this
is what it is. This is my time now to
say it how it is and share it with the
world and hopefully me being an inspiration for people not
(13:38):
to be ashamed, to be proud of who you are
and of your life experiences and to.
Speaker 4 (13:42):
Learn from them.
Speaker 10 (13:43):
And you know what, sometimes you got to put those
cheesements to rest.
Speaker 6 (13:47):
You can't let other people control your achievement.
Speaker 9 (13:49):
Right, Alexia, Right exactly, that's your story.
Speaker 5 (13:55):
So there's something else we wanted to ask you about.
We wanted it to come to you for some professional advice.
Speaker 9 (14:03):
Yes, oh, because we're the expert chiemosas that you have
to come to us.
Speaker 10 (14:08):
We have a lot of experience in get the demo,
so yes, tell us.
Speaker 4 (14:11):
How can we help you? So we started a cheese
may about.
Speaker 3 (14:15):
Our boss that her hair isn't her real hair, it's
a wig.
Speaker 1 (14:20):
A wig.
Speaker 9 (14:20):
That's boring, Feluca, that's not a good one. Why do
you say she has like a fake leg or something?
Does she wear a lot of pants?
Speaker 7 (14:29):
Well?
Speaker 10 (14:30):
Trying to keep their job.
Speaker 4 (14:31):
Remember it's their boss.
Speaker 10 (14:32):
Okay, it depends, you know, the achievement depends on who
the person is. But this is like their boss, so
they can't be you know, they can't take it overboardon.
Speaker 6 (14:40):
I don't know. You got to come up with something
more exciting than a peluga.
Speaker 3 (14:43):
Oh my god, I would never let.
Speaker 6 (14:46):
Me tell you something.
Speaker 9 (14:46):
The best achievement, I think is when you look someone
in the eyes and you sound convincing.
Speaker 10 (14:50):
Ooh, you sound like an expert Marazol. And then you
didn't want me to call you the g mossa.
Speaker 6 (14:55):
I just play one on TV.
Speaker 2 (15:00):
Coming up on Latino USA, our cheesemay Angels continued their
investigation into how gossip has shaped their identity as Latinas
and the steaks surrounding their cheeseme start to build as
they travel further into a Chice Moosas universe.
Speaker 1 (15:17):
Stay with us, not the bays.
Speaker 2 (15:27):
Hey, We're back and before the break, producers Monica Morales
Garcia and Elisa Bayena launched their quest to understand the
significance of cheese ma or gossip what it means for
the US Latino experience. They started by talking to some
professional cheese mosas the Real Housewives of Miami, but they
(15:50):
didn't stop there. Here are Monica and Elisa once again
with cheese May.
Speaker 5 (15:57):
Monica the Miami Housewife really wanted us to form with
our cheesemak experiment.
Speaker 3 (16:04):
Fake leg Aside, they did have some interesting points. The
best cheesemut does require a little bit of work, and
in order for our cheese me to be convincing, there
has to be a body of supporting evidence so that
it fits into a larger story.
Speaker 5 (16:19):
I think that I know someone who's really good at
getting straight to the source, and like the housewives, she's
also paid to chease me out on TV.
Speaker 12 (16:30):
Hi, everybody, I am Lelana Vascas. Formerly I was the
anchor for E News. I've been in Access Hollywood. I
spent seven years at The Today Show, and I think
most people really know me from my years as a
style expert on daytime TV.
Speaker 3 (16:45):
Ooh, so, why is celebrity cheese may such big business?
Speaker 12 (16:50):
I think people sometimes forget that these celebrities are true brands,
and there is a machine that is there to protect
that brand, and they want to control the narrative. They
want to really control when a story breaks, how it breaks,
how much you know about that story. And it's not
(17:11):
just them, the media is also in on it. I've
gotten a call ten minutes before I'm about to go
on air that's like, we're killing this story because so
and so's person called and they don't want to talk
about it. Or you got this sound bite an interview.
They want it gone, and I'm like, well, I don't
want it gone. They're like, right, well, we've got to
play the game. What you're hearing is a water down
(17:31):
version because you're talking about millions of not billions of
dollars at stake here.
Speaker 4 (17:36):
So just like there's big tech, there's big cheese meath.
Speaker 12 (17:42):
I mean, cheese me is what makes the world go round.
Speaker 3 (17:45):
So what do you think the relationship between cheeseman and storytelling.
Speaker 12 (17:49):
Is storytelling is just refined cheese myth. And it kind
of makes sense that I went into this field because
I want to know the stories, I want to ask
the questions, and I haven't ability to tell a story live.
That is really unique to me, and that is because
I think I've practiced it for so long in front
(18:11):
of my cousins at the dinner table, like at the
Godness Sada at the Quinsignia. And there's a way that
you tell the tieesement that gets everybody engaged and brings
everyone into the conversation. And if you are the one
leading that, there definitely is a performance aspect of that.
Speaker 4 (18:27):
No, totally. The delivery is super.
Speaker 12 (18:29):
Important because when you're telling it to an audience, you
want to be gentle, you want to give it pause,
you want to get the reactions because based on their reactions,
what's the next part of the story that you're going
to reveal? And are you going to tease it out?
Are you going to leave them wanting more? Are you
going to get up, go get a drink of water
so that they're like, come back, come back. And that's essential,
(18:50):
you know, as a host, as somebody who works on camera,
to be able to do that, it's a very critical
skill to have and not everybody can do it.
Speaker 3 (19:03):
So we took Leniana's advice and used our best storytelling
skills to share our little experiment with her.
Speaker 4 (19:09):
And like the housewives, she was not impressed.
Speaker 12 (19:13):
No girl next level say that she was just vacationing
at Mara a Lago, not mar A Lago. Oh my god,
that's the mic drop.
Speaker 3 (19:24):
That's it right there. So it turns out that cheesemak
can influence anything from the media that we consume to
the products that we buy. And meanwhile there are people getting.
Speaker 4 (19:37):
Rich from our thirst for cheese.
Speaker 10 (19:39):
Man.
Speaker 5 (19:40):
Yeah, I mean, if celebrities are brands, cheese may feeds
the beast.
Speaker 3 (19:44):
So it's clear that cheesemay can be really influential, and
maybe it has been that way forever. I feel like
we need to dive into the role of cheesement throughout history.
Speaker 7 (19:56):
My name is Anna Dadriguez Navas. I am an assistiate
pfessor of Latin American literature and culture at Leola, Chicago,
and my most recent book is a book on gossip,
which is why we're here.
Speaker 5 (20:10):
So the tora in your book idle Talk, Deadly Talk.
You look at how gossip in the Caribbean isn't just
a tool, it's a weapon. So while it can build communities,
it can also destabilize them. And something that you also
get into is a difference between the etymology of gossip
and cheese may. I'm wondering if you could tell us
(20:31):
a little bit more about that.
Speaker 7 (20:33):
So in English we use the word gossip pretty indistinguishably
from the Spanish cheese mate, right, but at its origin
they're very different. So the word gossip comes from gossip,
which basically means mavrina. So the word gossip is rooted
in kinship, in that kind of chatter or talk between
god parents. It describes a specific act, whereas cheese may
(20:55):
for us, in Spanish, the origin of the word is
much more oppositional. It derives they're from the word for
that bug, which is obviously an unpleasant, nasty creature, or
the word for schism, which can mean division, rupture, break.
Speaker 5 (21:11):
This really surprised me because cheese made to me, has
more of a positive connotation than gossip. Another distinction that
you make in your book is that the terms gossip
and rumor are often used interchangeably, but that doesn't mean
that they're identical. So with rumors, you don't necessarily know
where they're coming from, and they tend to be more conspiratorial.
(21:33):
But gossip has almost more credibility because it's more personal
and it's transmitted from one person to the next, so
it's the whole You know, you didn't hear this from me, but.
Speaker 7 (21:46):
Yes, exactly. Gossip is very, very, very elastic, and it's
really hard to overstate how different it can be and
how much it changes while still being recognizable as gossip.
Speaker 3 (21:57):
So look, Doda, we've actually been speaking to several professional chizmosas,
and now that I'm thinking about it, we've only wanted
to talk to women, and we never even bothered to
ask why that was. I'm starting to think that it
might have something to do with the internalized belief that
we gossip more or Gela Muherres almost mass chizmosis. But
(22:19):
where does that belief even come from.
Speaker 7 (22:22):
Historically, there's been that suggestion that real men quote unquote
don't gossip, So where does that come from? Well, women
were historically excluded from the public sphere. We weren't the
ones writing in newspapers or doing the public speaking, or
attended political meetings. So it's in the private sphere where
we found our voice. But it's also important to recognize
(22:44):
that women were not the only one's gossip. What happens
is that men use their public speech to label women's
private speech as inferior, while ignoring their own private speech
or not acknowledging what they're doing as a form of gossip.
Speaker 5 (22:59):
Too interesting, So is that maybe why women have been
told that gossiping is bad and something that we should
feel guilty about doing.
Speaker 7 (23:09):
You know, gossip is something that we all do. But
what happens is that when people talk about gossip, it's
not respectable or something that is a terrible thing to do.
It's really what you're seeing as an attempt to police
other people's gossip and to dismiss their voice.
Speaker 3 (23:24):
Exactly, And as you explore in your research, this isn't
something new. So throughout history, what has been the relationship
between gossip and power.
Speaker 7 (23:35):
Gossip has been historically a brush used by the oppressor
to paint the oppressed. So it's happened with indigenous men
with peasants and farmers with gay people, all of whom
have been talked about as being lazy, good for nothing,
gossip wers. But what is happening in those cases is
that those in power are first excluding those groups from
(23:58):
public discourse and then disqualifying their private discourse as nothing
but gossip.
Speaker 4 (24:03):
Oh okay, I see how it is.
Speaker 5 (24:07):
So can you give us an example of what that
looks like In Latin America.
Speaker 7 (24:11):
Whether it's slavery or colonization or dictatorships, our region has
been marked, unfortunately, by systems of power that don't represent
large sectors of the population, precisely because gossip is illicit
and furtive. It is a way for people to circumvent
those controls. They're able to challenge official versions of events,
(24:32):
to say what they think really happen, and to circulate
important knowledge to preserve their voices and their experiences.
Speaker 4 (24:40):
Yeah, I mean this is really resonating with me.
Speaker 5 (24:43):
In the afternoons, I used to sit in the sala
of my childhood home with my visa weelas and they would,
you know, tell me a lot of stories. There's usually
a lot of cautionary tales, sometimes about men, but also
about government repression in Cuba. So it is affirming to
know that that is also a form of cheese made.
Speaker 7 (25:04):
Gossip is a fundamental part of the kind of information
control of repressive political systems, and it sort of works
both ways. It can be extremely beneficial and it can
be extremely repressive. So, for instance, if someone gossip's with
you and tells you, hey, be careful with the neighbor
turns out that he's connected to the authorities, you know
(25:25):
that if you want to be safe, you're not going
to tell anything that might jeopardize you or your family
to this neighbor, right, anything that is against the government.
Speaker 5 (25:35):
This reminds me of the comites in Cuba, which are
basically networks of cheese muscles whose job is to snitch
on their neighbors to the government if they see or
hear or suspect of any illegal activity.
Speaker 7 (25:54):
Yes, that's a perfect example of that. That's one, and
there are many, and this sadly continues to happen. And
I want to point out that in this example we're
talking about men right all the way.
Speaker 6 (26:05):
Yes, all the way.
Speaker 3 (26:06):
It's always the man.
Speaker 7 (26:10):
Gossip for us in the diaspora, is a really important
way to reclaim stories that are at risk. So, for instance,
if you think about family gossip, it's not just chatter.
It's also a way of preserving something important or reclaiming
lost memories, lost history, of filling out silences. There's a
kind of oral history of the community that is authentic
that emerges from gossip.
Speaker 2 (26:38):
We'll be right back, Yes, hey, we're back. Producers Monica
Morales Garcia and Elisa Bayena have the rest of the story.
Speaker 5 (26:56):
Monica, I think I'm having a moment. Oh my God,
tell me. For maybe selfish reasons, my main goal in
this quest has been to demystify Chiese May because obviously
I'm very desperate to drop my guilt. But I think
that it's distracted me from seeing how Cheese May has
actually helped me form and craft my Cuban American identity.
(27:20):
How So, when I think about when I feel the
most Latina, it's when I'm Chiasmanlo with my Theas and
my cousins. It's late at night, everybody's defenses are down,
and that's when I'm not trying to check my Miami accent.
Speaker 4 (27:35):
Because I think it makes me sound less educated or something.
Speaker 3 (27:39):
You know, I've only recently been able to think of
myself as respectable, and I think a lot of that
is because so much of my Latinx identity is deeply
tied with class and gender and my experience in being
this working class, flamboyant chi they Latina with a huge butt.
I know that my words have never really carried much weight,
(28:01):
but it has been that act of dismissal that has
always fueled my desire to just own my truths own
my cheese, miss because for me, there's been nothing more
powerful than just living in my truth.
Speaker 2 (28:21):
All Right, welcome back, Nissa Helite's the cheese Man. So
how did the assignment go?
Speaker 3 (28:27):
We have so much to share, my god?
Speaker 5 (28:31):
Okay, So we first talked to two reality TV stars
from the Real Housewives of Miami and they had some
interesting suggestions about our Cheesema.
Speaker 6 (28:41):
Maria Luca, that's not a good one.
Speaker 9 (28:45):
Why do you say she has like a fake leg
or something.
Speaker 2 (28:48):
Okay, that's like the craziest thing I've ever heard that
what's easier to make people believe is that I have
a fake leg, not that I'm using weight.
Speaker 3 (28:56):
Our second expert was an entertainment journalist, and she wanted
us to take it even.
Speaker 12 (29:02):
Further say that she was just vacationing at mar A Lago.
Speaker 2 (29:09):
Wow, I think she knows me because to that one,
that's some pretty serious cheesement that could destroy my career.
Speaker 3 (29:18):
Good thing. We spoke to our last expert, Lo Toro
riaz Neavz, who reminded us that cheesemut is supposed to
be organic, it's not supposed to be fabricated. So in
this case, our experiment took an unexpected turn.
Speaker 2 (29:31):
Okay, I'm totally confused and intrigued. Now I want to
know what happened.
Speaker 4 (29:35):
Okay, So.
Speaker 5 (29:37):
What we're saying is that we didn't end up telling
anybody on our team that you wear a wig.
Speaker 1 (29:42):
Oh.
Speaker 3 (29:44):
We learned that the space where cheesemu happens is really
vital because you need to build that intimacy and confienza.
You got to look people in the eye. But because
we're all working remotely, we realize that spreading the cheese
may wasn't really going to happen as naturally as we wanted.
Speaker 2 (30:04):
In other words, cheese may has actually taken a hit
during the pandemic.
Speaker 3 (30:08):
It was a really unexpected loss.
Speaker 2 (30:11):
I did wonder, how do you start cheesemaup when you're
not all in the office, So yeah, the pandemic hit again.
Speaker 5 (30:17):
We were also just thinking what if we did start
spreading this cheesemail. What if we started having meetings with
other producers and we were like, hey, guess what, Madia's
hair is fake? What if that was an invitation for
them to say some really mean, nasty things about your hair.
Speaker 2 (30:34):
The thing about cheese may is that it can go dark,
it can get cruel, and it can be used as
a takedown.
Speaker 4 (30:42):
Yeah.
Speaker 5 (30:42):
I mean, we also have to remember that cheese may
is a way that belief systems are built and also maintained. So,
for example, if I'm talking to Una Senora and she's
gossiping to me about how someone gained weight and she's
framing it as something shameful, that she is not going
to be fun for me because body shaming is against
(31:05):
my personal ethical code.
Speaker 2 (31:08):
And so that is the other side of cheesema where
we can be laughing and joking. But then it's like,
oh uh, there was a crossover right there, and I
understand that that would have been hard. Also if anybody
said anything bad about my hair, I'd have to come
at them, not just kidding.
Speaker 5 (31:28):
So even though we didn't end up spreading the wig Cheesemay,
I think that we still came out on top because
we had a breakthrough. We learned that we'd come from
a long line of cheese malsas who like us, knew
that gossip isn't just silly women's talk. It deserves more
respect because it can be a tool for resistance.
Speaker 3 (31:49):
Yes exactly, it's an ancestral language, a save for cheesemad
right there. And you know, this experiment has made us
realize that it's not even so much what we're cheeseman
though about, but rather the connection that cheese May is creating.
Speaker 12 (32:08):
My ps and I live such different lives and sometimes
it's hard to find things to talk about, but we
can always talk about Talia always. Cheese May creates commonalities
for us to discuss and discuss passionately and energetically and
have fun together.
Speaker 7 (32:26):
Gossip, for us is a real important connective tissue, connecting
us us Latinas to Latin America, connecting us within our communities. Right,
it can be a bridge so that sense of belonging,
that sense of being part of that community is heightened
with the gossip.
Speaker 6 (32:45):
I don't know, this is like a therapy session.
Speaker 1 (32:49):
See that's it.
Speaker 10 (32:50):
You know.
Speaker 2 (32:50):
For me, cheese may is like bonding in particular with
family and joy and storytelling. I mean when I understood
that what my mom was doing during the time that
we were Cheesemando was actually telling me great stories, it was.
Speaker 1 (33:09):
A turning point for me.
Speaker 2 (33:10):
I was like, wait, I'm a storyteller too, and that
basically changed my whole life.
Speaker 5 (33:16):
I think I'm hearing that since we're all professional storytellers,
were also professional chiese mosas. And you know what, that
is nothing to be ashamed of. It is what gives
us our power.
Speaker 3 (33:32):
Ooh yes, our powers.
Speaker 2 (33:34):
It's official because this sientific, asad cheese May have told us.
So Elisa, Monica, your assignment is now complete. I am
blessing you to go off to cheese me Are until
you can't anymore, and that you're spreading the gospel of
Cheesemare's resistance. So until your next assignment, off you go,
(33:55):
my little Angels of Cheesemas. This episode was produced by
Monica Moralis Garcia and Elisa Maena. It was edited by
Marta Martinez and mixed by Stephanie Leveaux and Julia Caruso.
Thenanda Echavari is our managing editor. The Latino USA team
(34:18):
also includes Froxanna Guire, Jessica Ellis, Victoria Strada, Renaldo Leanos Junior,
Andrea Lopez Cruzado, Louis Luna, Dori mar Marquez, Lugeta Martinelli,
JJ Carubin, Adrena Rodriez.
Speaker 1 (34:31):
And Nancy Trujillo.
Speaker 2 (34:32):
Nilee Ramirez and I are co executive producers and I'm
your host Mariano Rosa. Latino USA is part of Iheart's
Mike Utura podcast network. Executive producers at iHeart are Leogo
Miz and Arlene Santana.
Speaker 1 (34:46):
Join us again on our next episode.
Speaker 2 (34:48):
In the meantime, I'll see you on all of our
social media and don't forget, dear listener, Join Futuro Plus.
Speaker 1 (34:55):
You get to listen to the episode.
Speaker 2 (34:57):
Ad free and get bonus episodes and yes, some behind
the scenes cheese men, and you'll be supporting Futuro Media,
which we know you love.
Speaker 1 (35:07):
Estella Proxima c
Speaker 3 (35:08):
Chao Latino USA is made possible in part by Skyline
Foundation the Ford Foundation, working with visionaries on the front
lines of social change worldwide, and Michelle Mercer and Bruce
Golden
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