May 2, 2025 • 27 mins
Pope Francis, history’s only Latin American pope, died on April 21st. As the cardinals of the world set to choose a new leader, we look back on Francisco's papacy, his most praised achievements and his most criticized shortcomings. Plus, how his leadership may influence the church for years to come. Guest host Fernanda Echavarri speaks with professor and feminist theologian Natalia Imperatori-Lee and Argentinian-American journalist Antonia Cerejido. Together, they offer different perspectives to Francisco's legacy.
Latino USA is the longest-running news and culture radio program in the U.S., centering Latino stories and hosted by Pulitzer Prize-winning journalist Maria Hinojosa.
Follow the show to get every episode.
Follow us on TikTok and YouTube. Subscribe to our newsletter.
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:04):
Welcome to Latino USA. I'm Fernande Chavarri in for our
host MARIEO Jossa. Today we're looking back at the life
and legacy of the first and only Latin American Pope ever,
Pope Francis, or Papa Francisco, as he was known in
the Spanish speaking world. On Holy Sunday or Easter Sunday,
(00:29):
the Pope blessed a crowd from the balcony at Saint
Peter's Basilica.
Speaker 2 (00:33):
He is coming out onto the balcony Curlie fertility.
Speaker 3 (00:40):
Borna Pascua.
Speaker 1 (00:43):
The next day, on April twenty, first.
Speaker 3 (00:45):
Breaking news, Pope Francis, the first Latin American leader of
the Roman Catholic Church, has died.
Speaker 1 (00:53):
He was eighty eight years old and had been battling
pneumonia for weeks in the hospital. By his own request
and breaking with hundreds of years of tradition, Pope Francis
was buried in a simple, unadorned tomb. Days later, on
May seventh, the cardinals of the world will gather inside
the Sistine Chapel to choose a new leader of the
Catholic Church. But before the new Pope is named, we
(01:16):
want to remember Francisco's papacy, its most praised achievements and
its most criticized shortcomings, plus how his leadership may influence
the church in the years to come and for that.
Today we are joined by two people who have different
experiences with Catholicism and with the papacy. First, Natalia Imperatori
Lee is a professor of religious studies at Manhattan College
(01:37):
in the Bronx and also the author of Women and
the Church. Welcome to the show, Natalia, be Menita, thank
you for having me as yes, and also with us
today is Antonia Serejido, a friend of Latino USA and
host of the weekly podcast in Perfect Paradise out of
Los Angeles Public Radio LAist. Antonia is Argentinian American whose
family has been following the pope since his days in
(01:59):
Buenos Aires. Welcome back to the show, Antho.
Speaker 4 (02:02):
Very excited to be here.
Speaker 1 (02:03):
To start, Natalia and Antonia, I'd love to hear if
there is like a pope moment for you, anything that
comes up when you think of like the Pope. Natalie,
let's start with you.
Speaker 2 (02:13):
There are several this pope moments for me. Some are
good and some are quite bad. The good one that
sticks out for me is an image of him embracing
a man who had a severe disability, someone who would
definitely like draw attention and pity and probably a little
bit of fear.
Speaker 5 (02:34):
The Pope took the man's face in his hands, kissed him,
and blessed him.
Speaker 2 (02:40):
The heartwarming embrace happened yesterday in Saint Peter's Square. That
is a signature moment that he was going to be
a pope that was among the people, not above the people.
There's also some bad ones. He called women, especially women
in theology like myself the strawberries the cake of theology.
(03:02):
And yes, Ferananda made a fantastic face about that, and
well deserved because it really was absolutely cringe worthy. I
think a lot of the time that Francis spoke about women,
he really struggled not to be offensive, but a lot
of the actions he took on behalf of women were
actually quite good. So that's a contradiction that we'll probably
get into a little bit later.
Speaker 1 (03:22):
Yeah, Antonia, my pope moment.
Speaker 4 (03:24):
Well, I saw the Pope in person in twenty sixteen.
Speaker 1 (03:28):
He visited New York City twenty fifteen. Right, Yeah, I'm sorry,
Central Park RD is an estimated eighty thousand people cheered
Pope Francis.
Speaker 4 (03:38):
He drove through Central Park and at the time, Snapchat
was like the popular social media application, and there was
like a little filter where it had a little cartoon
of the Pope at the bottom, which was helpful because
he drove by so quickly that taking a picture of
him was actually difficult to do. I was kind of
(03:59):
amazed how the popemobile is moving, but I think it
sort of encapsulates the fact that this Pope was, especially
for me, who's not a religious person, like, had so
much significance beyond just the Catholic community. He was really
this important cultural icon through like you know, the first
big AI photo meme.
Speaker 6 (04:18):
This just appears to be Pope Francis wearing a white
puffer jacket with an iced out cross.
Speaker 1 (04:23):
And Pope Francess was genuinely funny. He had some really
great moments behind the scenes that was close to him,
say he liked a good joke like the rest of us.
For me, I don't have an anecdote with this Pope,
but when I think of the Pope as like the
representation of the Pope, I think of Undo Joan Paul
(04:46):
the second, and I specifically remember being like eleven years
old maybe, and my mom goes, he's he's gonna the
Pope is going to do a blessing on TV. And
they said that if you put stuff in front of
the TV, he could bless it for you. So I
am like, you know, like scrambling to find a picture
of my dad. My parents were divorced at the time.
(05:07):
My dad was living in the US. I missed him terribly.
And then I grabbed my CD from the Spice Girls
and I stood in front of the TV and waited
for to bless those two things. And I swore. I
was like, Okay, he's protecting my dad, and he's protecting
the Spice Girls.
Speaker 3 (05:22):
Spy Girl. That's good. They needed protection.
Speaker 1 (05:24):
And that's what I think about when I think about
the Pope, his relevance, his significance, that it could transcend
the TV. He had these powers. But since then I
moved to the US and I am no longer practicing
catholic I have walked away from the religion I did
a long time ago. So that's sort of where we
all stand when it comes to where we are on Catholicism.
So let me bring us back to the present now
(05:44):
to speak of Pope Francis again. Papa Francisco and Natalia,
what were you doing when you got the news that
the Pope had passed?
Speaker 2 (05:51):
So I was waking up in the morning, it was
Easter Monday, and I opened Instagram and I was like, wait.
Speaker 3 (06:00):
What he was He had just gotten out of the hospital.
Speaker 2 (06:04):
Like I really thought that he was going to pull
through and give us maybe three more years. So I
was really shocked. And then I was really sad because
it's not that he didn't seem like the pope to me.
He did, but he was like the best possible pope.
This one was really kind of, first of all, one
(06:24):
of us, not just one of us in terms of
being Latino or whatever, but one of us in terms
of really seeing the good that the Church can do
and sort of appealing really broadly, and that his legacy
is in peril had me really sort of feeling a
lot of anxiety about the future of Catholicism.
Speaker 1 (06:41):
Antonia, I want to hear about how your family reacted
to his passing. In Argentina.
Speaker 4 (06:46):
The person who is still very Catholic in my family
is my grandma Yawela Madi, who I adore, and it's
very interesting because neither of my parents were religious. But
for me, what I saw Catholicism as growing up was
my grandmother's sense of community. And I sent a message
to my grandma and I told her, I'm so sad
about the Pope's passing, and she was like, yes, but
(07:07):
we have to be so grateful we had him, you know,
as long as we did. And she sounded so resolute
and just so proud to have had an Argentine pope.
Speaker 1 (07:16):
And your grandma sent you a note that had a
really interesting line in it that said, Naries prophet.
Speaker 7 (07:25):
Navie prophet and Sutierra imucho patriot.
Speaker 4 (07:33):
Yeah, she's saying so like Jesus says, nobody is a
prophet in their own land, and that he was very misunderstood.
Speaker 7 (07:43):
Perimo the pro personal mondoos parallel money.
Speaker 4 (07:58):
That she hopes that his successor is somebody who continues
with Pope Francis's message of peace in the world, taking
care of the environment and social justice for all of humanity.
Speaker 7 (08:13):
Francisco de Gan Sempas.
Speaker 1 (08:23):
Staying on his messaging Natalia, I'm curious, what are some
of the ways that Pope Francis brought his cultural identity
to his papacy.
Speaker 2 (08:32):
Francis is himself the child of migrants, right. He knows
what it means to have to leave everything behind. And
I think one of the most significant things that sort
of tipped us off was when he decided that his
first papal trip would be to Lampusa.
Speaker 1 (08:46):
Lam produces the first port of safety for thousands of
migrants and asylum seekers from North Africa every year.
Speaker 2 (08:53):
Italy was struggling with assimilating a great influx of migrants,
and Francis, rather than weigh in politically or make a
statement or anything like that, went to Lampe Lusa. He
said that was the first trip he wanted to make
as the pope, and it really signaled that this was
someone who wanted to be close to people on the margins.
(09:17):
And I think that that is something that he gets
from Latin American social organizing, from being in the global South,
where you're not really the protagonists of the universe, but
rather the universe is kind of happening to you. So
I do feel like he understands that that people are
leaving really untenable situations and that there's no kind of
(09:39):
victory in migration. Another example of this kind of solidarity
that he had up until the last day he was alive,
he called a church in Gaza every night.
Speaker 3 (09:50):
Pope Francis spoke nightly with Gaza's only Catholic church.
Speaker 2 (10:07):
He did that even when he was like mostly incapacitated.
He made a point to just call and check in
and be with them, even though he couldn't be with them.
He didn't make a statement, he didn't go on TV
about it. But that kind of example is what makes
his legacy more transcending the church, right, It transcends just Catholics,
(10:27):
and it sets a moral example I think for everyone,
including people who've walked away like yourself. We call you guys,
the duns, and it's okay to be done.
Speaker 1 (10:40):
Coming up on Latino US say what Papa Francisco changed,
what he didn't, and a plot twist we didn't see coming.
But before we take a break, we want to share
some of the voicemails that we received from Latino USA
listeners about what the Pope meant to them and for
some what it was like to be in Rome the
day after he passed. Take a listen.
Speaker 6 (10:59):
My name is lizzutiis from Tucson, Arizona. To me, for
Francis was just such a punk rock figure I left
the church for years and just his kindness, His logical
thinking is critical thinking, even though it was imperfect, it was.
Speaker 3 (11:20):
So punk rock.
Speaker 6 (11:22):
Hi, my name is Karen Vegas. Pope Francis is a
reminder of the Jesus and his life that Catholics believe
in and the promise that a human being, a pope,
could be like him in this day and age. As
the days, weeks and years go by, will begin to
truly comprehend and grasp his positive and transformational influence. Papa Francisco,
(11:44):
disca and sampas.
Speaker 8 (11:45):
Hi, I'm Luciana, I am from Argentina. I still remember
that emotion. I felt it and watched the Pope's innagras.
The emotion brought tears to all of us. The pride
I'm d sold by the majority of Argentina people would
be eternal, just like him.
Speaker 9 (12:06):
We never thought that we will be coming to Rome
with no pope. It was four hours waiting to see him.
In about an hour inside Saint Peter's Basilica, you could
feel the grief of the people inside the church.
Speaker 10 (12:25):
And Albi and loyalty understands in the dale simply come
camier pos you know the nah in sense, we need.
Speaker 9 (12:37):
Discrip simply as a moment, and it's supposed they will
need never be forgotten because of his commitment with the poor,
with the less fortunate, with the immigrants.
Speaker 1 (12:55):
Stay with us, yes, hey, we're back. Before the break,
Natalie and Perratori Lei and Antonio Serrihido broke down the
cultural significance of Pope Francis papacy. Now let's dig into
some of the changes that he made and some he didn't.
Let's get back to our conversation. I want to do
(13:16):
like a like a sort of in my head, like
a list of some of the things that the Pope
did that changed as far as church policy goes. He
allowed people who had been divorced after having a Catholic
wedding to take communion, which may seem like a small change,
but I know from people in my family who are
in that situation it was incredibly meaningful.
Speaker 2 (13:36):
Colossal colossal, Okay, colossal for Latin America and for Latinos
in the United States. Right, so many of our family
members are married Porlo Seville and not in the church.
Because church weddings have cost money sometimes, which is a
crime against God. And because people don't have the ability,
(13:56):
they haven't received all of their sacraments because of the
pre shortage, a myriad of reasons. White people don't get
married in the church, and they hold themselves back from
going to receive communion. And all Francis did was say,
you know what, we should probably encourage these people, walk
along with them and see if we can bring them back.
I want the church to be for doss right, and
(14:17):
I think especially divorced Catholics like huge or people in
a regular situations is what he called it.
Speaker 3 (14:24):
He wants all those people at the table.
Speaker 1 (14:26):
The next thing on the list was he changed the
way the Catholic Church views the death penalty, saying that
the death penalty was inadmissible. He called pollution a sin.
He brought in revolutionary shift to the tone of speaking
of LGBTQ issues. Under his watch, he overhauled the Vatican
Constitution by allowing any baptized Catholic, including women, to head
(14:46):
most departments of the Catholic Church's Central Administration. But he
also upheld the church's views on abortion as being a sin.
There was no change there he once repeated a homophobic
slur despite his advance in the way he spoke of
LGBTQ issues, And he made no changes to the rule
that says the women cannot be ordained as priests. And
(15:08):
I'm wondering if you can speak to the internal strife
brought on by Francis, you know, why was he open
to some reform in some cases but not others. And
even by asking that question, am I being reductive into
thinking that all of these things should align with one
side and therefore you choose one side that says if
you're pro LGBTQ, you must also be pro abortion.
Speaker 2 (15:29):
You must, you know, Like I think, one of the
things that is important to say at the outset of
this is Francis change doctrine a lot of it. Making
the death penalty inadmissible in all cases is a massive shift.
You can't argue no matter how guilty somebody is, no
matter how heinous their crime is, it doesn't matter in
all cases, like abortion, no matter how you feel about that.
(15:50):
But if you're going to say abortion is impermissible in
all cases, then guess what the death penalty is too.
And this is the source of the contradictions right that
you were talking about Fernanda with the kind of like,
shouldn't you be against all these things or for all
of these things. But a lot of the people who
are on the abortion is wrong in all cases because
babies are innocent and perfect and pure. Team are on
(16:13):
the but we should be able to kill criminals.
Speaker 3 (16:15):
Team.
Speaker 2 (16:16):
Their opposition to abortion is based on blamelessness and blame
versus the dignity of human life, whereas Francis is pulling
back and being like, no, no, no. If you're saying
the dignity of human life, then every human life has dignity,
even the ones that you think have no value to me.
Speaker 4 (16:33):
I understood that Papa Fancisco one of his main goals
was to welcome more people into the church, that the
Catholic Church had lost a lot of its members and
he really wanted to expand the church's influence and have
more people come in.
Speaker 3 (16:47):
Did he do that? I think so.
Speaker 2 (16:50):
If you check any kind of social media in the
past few days, so much of my feeds are I'm
not even Catholic. I'm not even religious. I don't even
like religion. But I'm sad that this pope has died.
I think it just it depends on how you measure success, right, Right,
So like let's think about this, right, Historically, Europe, which
is where Christianity was strongest for the longest time, right
(17:12):
and brought us colonialism and all the rest, has more
or less it's kind of done with church, really pretty secular,
and consistently Europeans under report how often they go to church,
whereas Americans consistently over report how often they go to church.
This reveals attitudinal things about like in Europe it's viewed
(17:32):
as sort of backward and superstitious, whereas in the United
States it's viewed as a mark of a good person.
Speaker 3 (17:38):
No right exactly.
Speaker 2 (17:40):
But church attendance in and of itself, I don't know
is going to be a good measure of this pope's impact,
because people's experience of the church is not the pope, right.
People's experience of the church is whatever's going on in
the church that they go to on Sunday. And sometimes
that's a good experience and people feel like they are
participating and it's a vibrant community. And sometimes it's like
(18:03):
the celebrant is like yelling at people who don't come
to church. And nobody wants to go back. That is
a separate issue. I think from was this a successful
papacy was the pope? Because the papacy transcends the Catholic Church.
It's a global player, and I don't want to play
it either. Like he's was super good and everything he
did was perfect and it was awesome.
Speaker 6 (18:24):
Right.
Speaker 2 (18:25):
It's important to remember the church sits at the UN
and it has a voice and a vote at the
United Nations, and it frequently votes against things that help
women in poor countries, like with family planning and stuff
like that. But in terms of Francis's redirection and just
kind of moving the church back toward being a moral
voice after the scandals of the sex abuse cover up
(18:49):
had just sort of decimated the moral voice of the church.
Speaker 3 (18:53):
A Pennsylvania grand jury says more than three hundred priests
sexually abused more than a thousand children and likely thousand
and is more over seven decades.
Speaker 1 (19:02):
When he became pope in twenty thirteen, the church, the
Catholic Church was riddled with controversy about the sexual assault
of children by clergymen and the structure in the church
which allowed this to continue. I want to hear a
little bit about the culture that Pope Francis inherited and
what steps did he take to deal with the abuse
of children, but perhaps even more important, what he didn't
(19:24):
do and what he should have done to fight it
more effectively.
Speaker 2 (19:30):
So when Francis ascended to the papacy, well when Benedict resigned,
you could tell that the rot of sort of protecting
one another and the culture we called an economy of secrecy, right.
I mean, yes, pedophilia is a scandal, but what scandalized
people was that the church would cover it up, right,
(19:53):
Because when you have a child, we're relying on a
sort of social contract to root out and prevent that
kind of abuse. When you find out that the institution
that you trusted the most was actively working to protect
those people, that's a kind of betrayal that you don't
really come back from. And I think that that is
the pain that people are just still dealing with. Francis,
(20:18):
you know, I think I give him like a B
minus on this. He did a lot, but when he
was confronted, it's like, no, I don't believe that it's
just calumnia, right, that's calumny or bad gossip.
Speaker 9 (20:29):
Pope Francis defended a Chilean bishop saying, quote, the day
they bring me proof, I'll speak.
Speaker 1 (20:34):
There is not one thread of proof.
Speaker 3 (20:36):
It's all calumny. Is that clear?
Speaker 2 (20:39):
That was his instinct right to say, oh no, my
friend could never do that, right, But it turns out
his friend did right, and this is anomally.
Speaker 1 (20:46):
Did his friend do it? He is in an institution
that has time and time and time and time and
time and time again covered it up, yes, and never
punished anybody.
Speaker 2 (20:56):
And given people promotions. However, Francis saw that he was wrong.
He said he was wrong, that he.
Speaker 3 (21:03):
Did do Pope Francis asked for forgiveness.
Speaker 5 (21:08):
The manifesta here I feel bound or express my pain
and shame, the shame that I feel at the irreparable
damage caused to children by some ministers of the church.
Speaker 3 (21:19):
Could he have done more? Could he have been more public? Yes?
Speaker 2 (21:22):
I think that this kind of the culture of cover up,
this is a very Italian thing. It's also I think,
a very Latino thing, right, and I think that we
inherited that a lot from Europe, and it's still very
much in vogue in places like Italy that you have
to give al martiempo buenagada all the time, and you
don't air your family's dirty laundry out in the world
because it's going to scandalize people, when in fact, what
(21:44):
really scandalizes people is that you wouldn't report this person
immediately and kick them out, Right, that's the scandal, and
that's the truth. Scandal is produced by people who are
afraid of the wrong thing. They're afraid of people finding
out about evil, and in the process of doing that,
they end up collaborating with evil. And I think that
that too often was the sin of the church. Francis
(22:06):
tried with mixed results. So he's dealing with this pool
of people that is so tainted and trying to kind
of navigate being a moral voice again. And that's where
those small acts of solidarity. I really do think that
those are the only things that you can do in
a situation like he's in, say you're sorry.
Speaker 3 (22:25):
And this is something I think that we have to
have a broader cultural conversation about.
Speaker 2 (22:30):
Is it enough to say I'm sorry that this happened,
or does repentance involve some sort of reparations?
Speaker 4 (22:36):
Right?
Speaker 3 (22:37):
And that part is something the church is still struggling with.
Speaker 1 (22:44):
We know that starting May seventh, the conclave will begin
and when we can expect the next election of the
pope to happen. So, Natalie, if you can give us
like a super quick guide of how this process works
for those of us who didn't just watch conclave.
Speaker 3 (23:01):
Good. Yes, conclave is actually pretty it's pretty close. So
that was good.
Speaker 2 (23:05):
Now what happens is, so the pope is buried and
now they're having these general congregations where they're meeting. They've
elected a couple of cardinals to give them like meditations
on where the church is and where the church is going,
sort of like to set the tone for what it
is that they want to look for. And then the
cardinals are allowed to make speeches, so they're not campaign
(23:26):
speeches because they're not allowed to campaign, but they bought
a lot of people say that Burgolio's speech during the
congregation really catapulted him into the contenders.
Speaker 4 (23:37):
And it seems like one of the hints of maybe
who the successor could be is the fact that eighty
percent of the cardinals currently who are going to be
voting in the conclave were appointed by Francis himself. So
it'll be very interesting to see whether that has an
influence on who actually ends up being his successor you.
Speaker 3 (23:54):
Don't have a guess not that yet.
Speaker 2 (23:56):
I mean, I have people who I wish it would be,
but I'm not saying because I want to let the
whole spirit take care, because I'm cell just latina enough
to not want to jinx it by saying it out loud.
Speaker 1 (24:06):
Okay, So I guess the last question for you both,
and I'll start with you Antonia. What do you think
is Pope Francis's biggest legacy and what would you like
to see in a new pope.
Speaker 4 (24:23):
I definitely think that Pope Francis's message about inclusivity and
community is to me, the most moving part of his message.
I think it's something that we are very much losing
in everyday life. There's far fewer third spaces where people
can create a sense of their life outside of their work,
outside of capitalism. And I'm not religious, but like that
(24:46):
aspect of religious life. I would love to see it
grow and it would be really cool to see if
the future iteration of the church is one that can
promote that on a global scale.
Speaker 3 (24:57):
I think Antonia really nailed that.
Speaker 2 (24:58):
The building of community at a time when we're desperately
seeking community, and that he was very much a pope
of presence and a pope of solidarity, so that's great.
I think his legacy is one of profound humility.
Speaker 4 (25:11):
Right.
Speaker 2 (25:11):
He was constantly reminding us that he was a sinner
and that the Church is fill of sinners, and that
the Church of Saints doesn't exist, so forget it. And
I think his even bigger legacy is appointing women to
really important Vatican posts. So my biggest hope is that
somebody in the first ballot will write a woman's name down.
Speaker 1 (25:35):
That'd be wild plot to.
Speaker 6 (25:37):
Us like it so far.
Speaker 1 (25:38):
I would love that. And that's that's where if we're
giving Papa Francisco grades great job for appointing all these
women to those positions. Better you don't get an a
Thank you both so much for this conversation. It was
really wonderful to hear from both of you.
Speaker 3 (25:52):
This was awesome.
Speaker 2 (25:53):
Your story about John Paul the second blessing the Spice
Girls through the phone is the most Mexican American Catholicism
recopy I've ever heard of my life.
Speaker 1 (26:04):
Thank you so much everyone for this very important moment
of history.
Speaker 6 (26:08):
Thank you.
Speaker 1 (26:10):
That was Natalia IMPERATORI Lee and Antonio Serejido. That's it
for today. I'm Fernande Chavari in for our host Marino Josa.
(26:32):
This episode was produced by Monica Moreles Garcia and edited
by Andrello Pescruzado. It was mixed by Lea shaw Dameran
special thanks this week to lay S Studios. The Latino
USA team also includes Froxana Guire, Julia Cruso, Felicia Dominguez,
Jessica Elis, Victoria Strada, Dominique Estrosa, Renaldo Lenos Junior, Stephanie
(26:52):
La Bo, Luis Luna, Marta Martinez, j j Caruben, Tasha Sandoval,
Nor Saudi and Nancy Trujillo. Maria Jojosa, Penile Ramirez, Marlon
Bishop and Maria Garcia are our co executive producers. Join
us again next time, and in the meantime you can
find us on social media.
Speaker 5 (27:10):
Lios Latino USA is made possible in part by Skyline Foundation.
Speaker 7 (27:20):
The Annie E.
Speaker 5 (27:21):
Casey Foundation creates a brighter future for the nation's children
by strengthening families, building greater economic opportunity, and transforming communities,
and funding for Latino USA's Coverage of a culture of
health is made possible, in part by a grant from
the Robert Wood Johnson Foundation.
Welcome to Latino USA. I'm Fernande Chavarri in for our
host MARIEO Jossa. Today we're looking back at the life
and legacy of the first and only Latin American Pope ever,
Pope Francis, or Papa Francisco, as he was known in
the Spanish speaking world. On Holy Sunday or Easter Sunday,
(00:29):
the Pope blessed a crowd from the balcony at Saint
Peter's Basilica.
Speaker 2 (00:33):
He is coming out onto the balcony Curlie fertility.
Speaker 3 (00:40):
Borna Pascua.
Speaker 1 (00:43):
The next day, on April twenty, first.
Speaker 3 (00:45):
Breaking news, Pope Francis, the first Latin American leader of
the Roman Catholic Church, has died.
Speaker 1 (00:53):
He was eighty eight years old and had been battling
pneumonia for weeks in the hospital. By his own request
and breaking with hundreds of years of tradition, Pope Francis
was buried in a simple, unadorned tomb. Days later, on
May seventh, the cardinals of the world will gather inside
the Sistine Chapel to choose a new leader of the
Catholic Church. But before the new Pope is named, we
(01:16):
want to remember Francisco's papacy, its most praised achievements and
its most criticized shortcomings, plus how his leadership may influence
the church in the years to come and for that.
Today we are joined by two people who have different
experiences with Catholicism and with the papacy. First, Natalia Imperatori
Lee is a professor of religious studies at Manhattan College
(01:37):
in the Bronx and also the author of Women and
the Church. Welcome to the show, Natalia, be Menita, thank
you for having me as yes, and also with us
today is Antonia Serejido, a friend of Latino USA and
host of the weekly podcast in Perfect Paradise out of
Los Angeles Public Radio LAist. Antonia is Argentinian American whose
family has been following the pope since his days in
(01:59):
Buenos Aires. Welcome back to the show, Antho.
Speaker 4 (02:02):
Very excited to be here.
Speaker 1 (02:03):
To start, Natalia and Antonia, I'd love to hear if
there is like a pope moment for you, anything that
comes up when you think of like the Pope. Natalie,
let's start with you.
Speaker 2 (02:13):
There are several this pope moments for me. Some are
good and some are quite bad. The good one that
sticks out for me is an image of him embracing
a man who had a severe disability, someone who would
definitely like draw attention and pity and probably a little
bit of fear.
Speaker 5 (02:34):
The Pope took the man's face in his hands, kissed him,
and blessed him.
Speaker 2 (02:40):
The heartwarming embrace happened yesterday in Saint Peter's Square. That
is a signature moment that he was going to be
a pope that was among the people, not above the people.
There's also some bad ones. He called women, especially women
in theology like myself the strawberries the cake of theology.
(03:02):
And yes, Ferananda made a fantastic face about that, and
well deserved because it really was absolutely cringe worthy. I
think a lot of the time that Francis spoke about women,
he really struggled not to be offensive, but a lot
of the actions he took on behalf of women were
actually quite good. So that's a contradiction that we'll probably
get into a little bit later.
Speaker 1 (03:22):
Yeah, Antonia, my pope moment.
Speaker 4 (03:24):
Well, I saw the Pope in person in twenty sixteen.
Speaker 1 (03:28):
He visited New York City twenty fifteen. Right, Yeah, I'm sorry,
Central Park RD is an estimated eighty thousand people cheered
Pope Francis.
Speaker 4 (03:38):
He drove through Central Park and at the time, Snapchat
was like the popular social media application, and there was
like a little filter where it had a little cartoon
of the Pope at the bottom, which was helpful because
he drove by so quickly that taking a picture of
him was actually difficult to do. I was kind of
(03:59):
amazed how the popemobile is moving, but I think it
sort of encapsulates the fact that this Pope was, especially
for me, who's not a religious person, like, had so
much significance beyond just the Catholic community. He was really
this important cultural icon through like you know, the first
big AI photo meme.
Speaker 6 (04:18):
This just appears to be Pope Francis wearing a white
puffer jacket with an iced out cross.
Speaker 1 (04:23):
And Pope Francess was genuinely funny. He had some really
great moments behind the scenes that was close to him,
say he liked a good joke like the rest of us.
For me, I don't have an anecdote with this Pope,
but when I think of the Pope as like the
representation of the Pope, I think of Undo Joan Paul
(04:46):
the second, and I specifically remember being like eleven years
old maybe, and my mom goes, he's he's gonna the
Pope is going to do a blessing on TV. And
they said that if you put stuff in front of
the TV, he could bless it for you. So I
am like, you know, like scrambling to find a picture
of my dad. My parents were divorced at the time.
(05:07):
My dad was living in the US. I missed him terribly.
And then I grabbed my CD from the Spice Girls
and I stood in front of the TV and waited
for to bless those two things. And I swore. I
was like, Okay, he's protecting my dad, and he's protecting
the Spice Girls.
Speaker 3 (05:22):
Spy Girl. That's good. They needed protection.
Speaker 1 (05:24):
And that's what I think about when I think about
the Pope, his relevance, his significance, that it could transcend
the TV. He had these powers. But since then I
moved to the US and I am no longer practicing
catholic I have walked away from the religion I did
a long time ago. So that's sort of where we
all stand when it comes to where we are on Catholicism.
So let me bring us back to the present now
(05:44):
to speak of Pope Francis again. Papa Francisco and Natalia,
what were you doing when you got the news that
the Pope had passed?
Speaker 2 (05:51):
So I was waking up in the morning, it was
Easter Monday, and I opened Instagram and I was like, wait.
Speaker 3 (06:00):
What he was He had just gotten out of the hospital.
Speaker 2 (06:04):
Like I really thought that he was going to pull
through and give us maybe three more years. So I
was really shocked. And then I was really sad because
it's not that he didn't seem like the pope to me.
He did, but he was like the best possible pope.
This one was really kind of, first of all, one
(06:24):
of us, not just one of us in terms of
being Latino or whatever, but one of us in terms
of really seeing the good that the Church can do
and sort of appealing really broadly, and that his legacy
is in peril had me really sort of feeling a
lot of anxiety about the future of Catholicism.
Speaker 1 (06:41):
Antonia, I want to hear about how your family reacted
to his passing. In Argentina.
Speaker 4 (06:46):
The person who is still very Catholic in my family
is my grandma Yawela Madi, who I adore, and it's
very interesting because neither of my parents were religious. But
for me, what I saw Catholicism as growing up was
my grandmother's sense of community. And I sent a message
to my grandma and I told her, I'm so sad
about the Pope's passing, and she was like, yes, but
(07:07):
we have to be so grateful we had him, you know,
as long as we did. And she sounded so resolute
and just so proud to have had an Argentine pope.
Speaker 1 (07:16):
And your grandma sent you a note that had a
really interesting line in it that said, Naries prophet.
Speaker 7 (07:25):
Navie prophet and Sutierra imucho patriot.
Speaker 4 (07:33):
Yeah, she's saying so like Jesus says, nobody is a
prophet in their own land, and that he was very misunderstood.
Speaker 7 (07:43):
Perimo the pro personal mondoos parallel money.
Speaker 4 (07:58):
That she hopes that his successor is somebody who continues
with Pope Francis's message of peace in the world, taking
care of the environment and social justice for all of humanity.
Speaker 7 (08:13):
Francisco de Gan Sempas.
Speaker 1 (08:23):
Staying on his messaging Natalia, I'm curious, what are some
of the ways that Pope Francis brought his cultural identity
to his papacy.
Speaker 2 (08:32):
Francis is himself the child of migrants, right. He knows
what it means to have to leave everything behind. And
I think one of the most significant things that sort
of tipped us off was when he decided that his
first papal trip would be to Lampusa.
Speaker 1 (08:46):
Lam produces the first port of safety for thousands of
migrants and asylum seekers from North Africa every year.
Speaker 2 (08:53):
Italy was struggling with assimilating a great influx of migrants,
and Francis, rather than weigh in politically or make a
statement or anything like that, went to Lampe Lusa. He
said that was the first trip he wanted to make
as the pope, and it really signaled that this was
someone who wanted to be close to people on the margins.
(09:17):
And I think that that is something that he gets
from Latin American social organizing, from being in the global South,
where you're not really the protagonists of the universe, but
rather the universe is kind of happening to you. So
I do feel like he understands that that people are
leaving really untenable situations and that there's no kind of
(09:39):
victory in migration. Another example of this kind of solidarity
that he had up until the last day he was alive,
he called a church in Gaza every night.
Speaker 3 (09:50):
Pope Francis spoke nightly with Gaza's only Catholic church.
Speaker 2 (10:07):
He did that even when he was like mostly incapacitated.
He made a point to just call and check in
and be with them, even though he couldn't be with them.
He didn't make a statement, he didn't go on TV
about it. But that kind of example is what makes
his legacy more transcending the church, right, It transcends just Catholics,
(10:27):
and it sets a moral example I think for everyone,
including people who've walked away like yourself. We call you guys,
the duns, and it's okay to be done.
Speaker 1 (10:40):
Coming up on Latino US say what Papa Francisco changed,
what he didn't, and a plot twist we didn't see coming.
But before we take a break, we want to share
some of the voicemails that we received from Latino USA
listeners about what the Pope meant to them and for
some what it was like to be in Rome the
day after he passed. Take a listen.
Speaker 6 (10:59):
My name is lizzutiis from Tucson, Arizona. To me, for
Francis was just such a punk rock figure I left
the church for years and just his kindness, His logical
thinking is critical thinking, even though it was imperfect, it was.
Speaker 3 (11:20):
So punk rock.
Speaker 6 (11:22):
Hi, my name is Karen Vegas. Pope Francis is a
reminder of the Jesus and his life that Catholics believe
in and the promise that a human being, a pope,
could be like him in this day and age. As
the days, weeks and years go by, will begin to
truly comprehend and grasp his positive and transformational influence. Papa Francisco,
(11:44):
disca and sampas.
Speaker 8 (11:45):
Hi, I'm Luciana, I am from Argentina. I still remember
that emotion. I felt it and watched the Pope's innagras.
The emotion brought tears to all of us. The pride
I'm d sold by the majority of Argentina people would
be eternal, just like him.
Speaker 9 (12:06):
We never thought that we will be coming to Rome
with no pope. It was four hours waiting to see him.
In about an hour inside Saint Peter's Basilica, you could
feel the grief of the people inside the church.
Speaker 10 (12:25):
And Albi and loyalty understands in the dale simply come
camier pos you know the nah in sense, we need.
Speaker 9 (12:37):
Discrip simply as a moment, and it's supposed they will
need never be forgotten because of his commitment with the poor,
with the less fortunate, with the immigrants.
Speaker 1 (12:55):
Stay with us, yes, hey, we're back. Before the break,
Natalie and Perratori Lei and Antonio Serrihido broke down the
cultural significance of Pope Francis papacy. Now let's dig into
some of the changes that he made and some he didn't.
Let's get back to our conversation. I want to do
(13:16):
like a like a sort of in my head, like
a list of some of the things that the Pope
did that changed as far as church policy goes. He
allowed people who had been divorced after having a Catholic
wedding to take communion, which may seem like a small change,
but I know from people in my family who are
in that situation it was incredibly meaningful.
Speaker 2 (13:36):
Colossal colossal, Okay, colossal for Latin America and for Latinos
in the United States. Right, so many of our family
members are married Porlo Seville and not in the church.
Because church weddings have cost money sometimes, which is a
crime against God. And because people don't have the ability,
(13:56):
they haven't received all of their sacraments because of the
pre shortage, a myriad of reasons. White people don't get
married in the church, and they hold themselves back from
going to receive communion. And all Francis did was say,
you know what, we should probably encourage these people, walk
along with them and see if we can bring them back.
I want the church to be for doss right, and
(14:17):
I think especially divorced Catholics like huge or people in
a regular situations is what he called it.
Speaker 3 (14:24):
He wants all those people at the table.
Speaker 1 (14:26):
The next thing on the list was he changed the
way the Catholic Church views the death penalty, saying that
the death penalty was inadmissible. He called pollution a sin.
He brought in revolutionary shift to the tone of speaking
of LGBTQ issues. Under his watch, he overhauled the Vatican
Constitution by allowing any baptized Catholic, including women, to head
(14:46):
most departments of the Catholic Church's Central Administration. But he
also upheld the church's views on abortion as being a sin.
There was no change there he once repeated a homophobic
slur despite his advance in the way he spoke of
LGBTQ issues, And he made no changes to the rule
that says the women cannot be ordained as priests. And
(15:08):
I'm wondering if you can speak to the internal strife
brought on by Francis, you know, why was he open
to some reform in some cases but not others. And
even by asking that question, am I being reductive into
thinking that all of these things should align with one
side and therefore you choose one side that says if
you're pro LGBTQ, you must also be pro abortion.
Speaker 2 (15:29):
You must, you know, Like I think, one of the
things that is important to say at the outset of
this is Francis change doctrine a lot of it. Making
the death penalty inadmissible in all cases is a massive shift.
You can't argue no matter how guilty somebody is, no
matter how heinous their crime is, it doesn't matter in
all cases, like abortion, no matter how you feel about that.
(15:50):
But if you're going to say abortion is impermissible in
all cases, then guess what the death penalty is too.
And this is the source of the contradictions right that
you were talking about Fernanda with the kind of like,
shouldn't you be against all these things or for all
of these things. But a lot of the people who
are on the abortion is wrong in all cases because
babies are innocent and perfect and pure. Team are on
(16:13):
the but we should be able to kill criminals.
Speaker 3 (16:15):
Team.
Speaker 2 (16:16):
Their opposition to abortion is based on blamelessness and blame
versus the dignity of human life, whereas Francis is pulling
back and being like, no, no, no. If you're saying
the dignity of human life, then every human life has dignity,
even the ones that you think have no value to me.
Speaker 4 (16:33):
I understood that Papa Fancisco one of his main goals
was to welcome more people into the church, that the
Catholic Church had lost a lot of its members and
he really wanted to expand the church's influence and have
more people come in.
Speaker 3 (16:47):
Did he do that? I think so.
Speaker 2 (16:50):
If you check any kind of social media in the
past few days, so much of my feeds are I'm
not even Catholic. I'm not even religious. I don't even
like religion. But I'm sad that this pope has died.
I think it just it depends on how you measure success, right, Right,
So like let's think about this, right, Historically, Europe, which
is where Christianity was strongest for the longest time, right
(17:12):
and brought us colonialism and all the rest, has more
or less it's kind of done with church, really pretty secular,
and consistently Europeans under report how often they go to church,
whereas Americans consistently over report how often they go to church.
This reveals attitudinal things about like in Europe it's viewed
(17:32):
as sort of backward and superstitious, whereas in the United
States it's viewed as a mark of a good person.
Speaker 3 (17:38):
No right exactly.
Speaker 2 (17:40):
But church attendance in and of itself, I don't know
is going to be a good measure of this pope's impact,
because people's experience of the church is not the pope, right.
People's experience of the church is whatever's going on in
the church that they go to on Sunday. And sometimes
that's a good experience and people feel like they are
participating and it's a vibrant community. And sometimes it's like
(18:03):
the celebrant is like yelling at people who don't come
to church. And nobody wants to go back. That is
a separate issue. I think from was this a successful
papacy was the pope? Because the papacy transcends the Catholic Church.
It's a global player, and I don't want to play
it either. Like he's was super good and everything he
did was perfect and it was awesome.
Speaker 6 (18:24):
Right.
Speaker 2 (18:25):
It's important to remember the church sits at the UN
and it has a voice and a vote at the
United Nations, and it frequently votes against things that help
women in poor countries, like with family planning and stuff
like that. But in terms of Francis's redirection and just
kind of moving the church back toward being a moral
voice after the scandals of the sex abuse cover up
(18:49):
had just sort of decimated the moral voice of the church.
Speaker 3 (18:53):
A Pennsylvania grand jury says more than three hundred priests
sexually abused more than a thousand children and likely thousand
and is more over seven decades.
Speaker 1 (19:02):
When he became pope in twenty thirteen, the church, the
Catholic Church was riddled with controversy about the sexual assault
of children by clergymen and the structure in the church
which allowed this to continue. I want to hear a
little bit about the culture that Pope Francis inherited and
what steps did he take to deal with the abuse
of children, but perhaps even more important, what he didn't
(19:24):
do and what he should have done to fight it
more effectively.
Speaker 2 (19:30):
So when Francis ascended to the papacy, well when Benedict resigned,
you could tell that the rot of sort of protecting
one another and the culture we called an economy of secrecy, right.
I mean, yes, pedophilia is a scandal, but what scandalized
people was that the church would cover it up, right,
(19:53):
Because when you have a child, we're relying on a
sort of social contract to root out and prevent that
kind of abuse. When you find out that the institution
that you trusted the most was actively working to protect
those people, that's a kind of betrayal that you don't
really come back from. And I think that that is
the pain that people are just still dealing with. Francis,
(20:18):
you know, I think I give him like a B
minus on this. He did a lot, but when he
was confronted, it's like, no, I don't believe that it's
just calumnia, right, that's calumny or bad gossip.
Speaker 9 (20:29):
Pope Francis defended a Chilean bishop saying, quote, the day
they bring me proof, I'll speak.
Speaker 1 (20:34):
There is not one thread of proof.
Speaker 3 (20:36):
It's all calumny. Is that clear?
Speaker 2 (20:39):
That was his instinct right to say, oh no, my
friend could never do that, right, But it turns out
his friend did right, and this is anomally.
Speaker 1 (20:46):
Did his friend do it? He is in an institution
that has time and time and time and time and
time and time again covered it up, yes, and never
punished anybody.
Speaker 2 (20:56):
And given people promotions. However, Francis saw that he was wrong.
He said he was wrong, that he.
Speaker 3 (21:03):
Did do Pope Francis asked for forgiveness.
Speaker 5 (21:08):
The manifesta here I feel bound or express my pain
and shame, the shame that I feel at the irreparable
damage caused to children by some ministers of the church.
Speaker 3 (21:19):
Could he have done more? Could he have been more public? Yes?
Speaker 2 (21:22):
I think that this kind of the culture of cover up,
this is a very Italian thing. It's also I think,
a very Latino thing, right, and I think that we
inherited that a lot from Europe, and it's still very
much in vogue in places like Italy that you have
to give al martiempo buenagada all the time, and you
don't air your family's dirty laundry out in the world
because it's going to scandalize people, when in fact, what
(21:44):
really scandalizes people is that you wouldn't report this person
immediately and kick them out, Right, that's the scandal, and
that's the truth. Scandal is produced by people who are
afraid of the wrong thing. They're afraid of people finding
out about evil, and in the process of doing that,
they end up collaborating with evil. And I think that
that too often was the sin of the church. Francis
(22:06):
tried with mixed results. So he's dealing with this pool
of people that is so tainted and trying to kind
of navigate being a moral voice again. And that's where
those small acts of solidarity. I really do think that
those are the only things that you can do in
a situation like he's in, say you're sorry.
Speaker 3 (22:25):
And this is something I think that we have to
have a broader cultural conversation about.
Speaker 2 (22:30):
Is it enough to say I'm sorry that this happened,
or does repentance involve some sort of reparations?
Speaker 4 (22:36):
Right?
Speaker 3 (22:37):
And that part is something the church is still struggling with.
Speaker 1 (22:44):
We know that starting May seventh, the conclave will begin
and when we can expect the next election of the
pope to happen. So, Natalie, if you can give us
like a super quick guide of how this process works
for those of us who didn't just watch conclave.
Speaker 3 (23:01):
Good. Yes, conclave is actually pretty it's pretty close. So
that was good.
Speaker 2 (23:05):
Now what happens is, so the pope is buried and
now they're having these general congregations where they're meeting. They've
elected a couple of cardinals to give them like meditations
on where the church is and where the church is going,
sort of like to set the tone for what it
is that they want to look for. And then the
cardinals are allowed to make speeches, so they're not campaign
(23:26):
speeches because they're not allowed to campaign, but they bought
a lot of people say that Burgolio's speech during the
congregation really catapulted him into the contenders.
Speaker 4 (23:37):
And it seems like one of the hints of maybe
who the successor could be is the fact that eighty
percent of the cardinals currently who are going to be
voting in the conclave were appointed by Francis himself. So
it'll be very interesting to see whether that has an
influence on who actually ends up being his successor you.
Speaker 3 (23:54):
Don't have a guess not that yet.
Speaker 2 (23:56):
I mean, I have people who I wish it would be,
but I'm not saying because I want to let the
whole spirit take care, because I'm cell just latina enough
to not want to jinx it by saying it out loud.
Speaker 1 (24:06):
Okay, So I guess the last question for you both,
and I'll start with you Antonia. What do you think
is Pope Francis's biggest legacy and what would you like
to see in a new pope.
Speaker 4 (24:23):
I definitely think that Pope Francis's message about inclusivity and
community is to me, the most moving part of his message.
I think it's something that we are very much losing
in everyday life. There's far fewer third spaces where people
can create a sense of their life outside of their work,
outside of capitalism. And I'm not religious, but like that
(24:46):
aspect of religious life. I would love to see it
grow and it would be really cool to see if
the future iteration of the church is one that can
promote that on a global scale.
Speaker 3 (24:57):
I think Antonia really nailed that.
Speaker 2 (24:58):
The building of community at a time when we're desperately
seeking community, and that he was very much a pope
of presence and a pope of solidarity, so that's great.
I think his legacy is one of profound humility.
Speaker 4 (25:11):
Right.
Speaker 2 (25:11):
He was constantly reminding us that he was a sinner
and that the Church is fill of sinners, and that
the Church of Saints doesn't exist, so forget it. And
I think his even bigger legacy is appointing women to
really important Vatican posts. So my biggest hope is that
somebody in the first ballot will write a woman's name down.
Speaker 1 (25:35):
That'd be wild plot to.
Speaker 6 (25:37):
Us like it so far.
Speaker 1 (25:38):
I would love that. And that's that's where if we're
giving Papa Francisco grades great job for appointing all these
women to those positions. Better you don't get an a
Thank you both so much for this conversation. It was
really wonderful to hear from both of you.
Speaker 3 (25:52):
This was awesome.
Speaker 2 (25:53):
Your story about John Paul the second blessing the Spice
Girls through the phone is the most Mexican American Catholicism
recopy I've ever heard of my life.
Speaker 1 (26:04):
Thank you so much everyone for this very important moment
of history.
Speaker 6 (26:08):
Thank you.
Speaker 1 (26:10):
That was Natalia IMPERATORI Lee and Antonio Serejido. That's it
for today. I'm Fernande Chavari in for our host Marino Josa.
(26:32):
This episode was produced by Monica Moreles Garcia and edited
by Andrello Pescruzado. It was mixed by Lea shaw Dameran
special thanks this week to lay S Studios. The Latino
USA team also includes Froxana Guire, Julia Cruso, Felicia Dominguez,
Jessica Elis, Victoria Strada, Dominique Estrosa, Renaldo Lenos Junior, Stephanie
(26:52):
La Bo, Luis Luna, Marta Martinez, j j Caruben, Tasha Sandoval,
Nor Saudi and Nancy Trujillo. Maria Jojosa, Penile Ramirez, Marlon
Bishop and Maria Garcia are our co executive producers. Join
us again next time, and in the meantime you can
find us on social media.
Speaker 5 (27:10):
Lios Latino USA is made possible in part by Skyline Foundation.
Speaker 7 (27:20):
The Annie E.
Speaker 5 (27:21):
Casey Foundation creates a brighter future for the nation's children
by strengthening families, building greater economic opportunity, and transforming communities,
and funding for Latino USA's Coverage of a culture of
health is made possible, in part by a grant from
the Robert Wood Johnson Foundation.
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
The Breakfast Club
The World's Most Dangerous Morning Show, The Breakfast Club, With DJ Envy, Jess Hilarious, And Charlamagne Tha God!