November 30, 2025 • 26 mins
For some years now, mezcal, Mexico’s other national spirit, has been in a cultural spotlight in and out of Mexico—especially here in the U.S. But the unseen devastating consequences of that demand have had a profound impact on the people making it. In this episode of Latino USA, we take a journey to Oaxaca to understand the ancestral connections to mezcal, how the spirit is made, and how to become a better consumer. Because there's “so much tradition, every time you sip, every time you smell, and every time you taste it.”
This episode first aired in 2021.
Latino USA is the longest-running news and culture radio program in the U.S., centering Latino stories and hosted by Pulitzer Prize-winning journalist Maria Hinojosa.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
You know reggaeton, but do you know the whole story?
Speaker 2 (00:04):
Hi?
Speaker 3 (00:05):
I'm Gini Monzadbo, Senior producer and sound designer of Loud
The History of Reggaeton?
Speaker 1 (00:10):
Did you hear the news?
Speaker 3 (00:12):
Loud is back by a popular demand. Listen to all
ten episodes that break down the beats, politics, and power
behind the genre, Hosted by herself Evie Queen. Listen now
only on Spotify.
Speaker 4 (00:36):
To make miscutten harvester's first shaved down the spiky leaves
of agaved plants in order to reach its core, turning
a large agavid plant into something that looks more like
around large pineapple. In Mexico's most indigenous state, Waka families
(00:57):
have been producing miscutt like this for generations, but starting
in the twenty tens, US consumers have been wanting more
and more of this traditionally made drink. By twenty twenty one,
Mescale had become the fastest growing spirit in the US,
(01:17):
with a global market estimated to be a half a
billion dollars by twenty twenty eight, and celebrities are cashing in.
Speaker 1 (01:26):
This is a bottle of dos ombres. It's mescal.
Speaker 3 (01:30):
Yeah, please stop telling us you love our tequila.
Speaker 4 (01:33):
It's mescal brands like Dos Ombres created by Breaking Bad
co stars Aaron Paul and Brian Cranston. It was important
for Aaron and I to do this right. Are buying
into the authenticity of the traditionally made spirit and bottling
it up for us consumers. The plant that makes mescale
(01:55):
actually takes years to grow, and as the popularity of
this guy increases, gaved plants are facing different pressures from
both the climate as well as the challenge of extinction.
So what does it mean to have so much interest
from business people outside of Mexico? Can you in fact
(02:16):
model up qahaka and sell it from Fudurro Media It's
Latino USA. I'm Maria Josa, and today to understand and
to appreciate Misca's production process and how to become a
(02:37):
better consumer of this traditional spirit, We're going to bring
you a story that aired first a few years ago
because there is a lot going on the world right now,
and you may need to come together this week to
be there for each other in some challenging times, but
it's also important to reflect on the positive. So we
(02:57):
hope you get to enjoy time with your fa meidia
and be thankful that you aren't together. So if you
raise a glass with some great Mexican mescal for sentences Sally,
there's a saying that goes, barto mal mescale bart dambien,
(03:21):
which essentially says, for everything bad, there's mescal, and for
everything good, there's mescal as well. Although tequila is the
most popular Mexican distilled beverage for a lot of people
outside of Mexico, mescal, it's much older sibling, is proving
to be an international popular cultural sensation in ways that
(03:43):
tequila never was. The way mescal is traditionally made can
put the world's finest wine makers to shame. What you
hear in the background is an agave farmer in the
central valley of Wahaka. He's chopping the prickly leaves from
(04:05):
a nagave plant that will eventually make its way through
the vigorous process of distilling in order to create miscale.
The drink is seriously mystical. Its origins are disputed, but
it is nonetheless considered the elixir of the gods of
the sapotech world. Due to the commercialization of tequila and
(04:26):
bureaucracy and the high cost of authenticating a spirit to
governmental standards, mescal was pushed to the shadows and was
left to be a drink of the poor. In fact,
when I first bought mescal in nineteen eighty one, I
got it in a plastic jug because you couldn't get
it in the liquor stores. But now mescal is finding
(04:47):
its way to Instagram feeds and to trendy barkers across
the United States, and producers of mescal are trying to
strike a balance between mass commercialization and ethical farming of
the crop that makes miscale. Most importantly, they want to
make sure those in the business and consumers alike understand
and appreciate the culture behind the millinery.
Speaker 5 (05:07):
Drink.
Speaker 4 (05:08):
Producers Juan Dio Ramirez in New York and Aredi Morales
in Wajaca are gonna tell us more.
Speaker 5 (05:18):
It's the beginning of the pandemic. And I found myself
doom scrolling through Instagram. Then a picture published by the
La taco An independent news outlet in La catches my eye.
It was from a protest against ICE, the Immigration and
Customs Enforcement Agency. The post depicted people in support of immigrants.
They held Mexican flags and a woman had a sign
(05:41):
that read.
Speaker 6 (05:42):
I drink my orchata warm because fuck Ice.
Speaker 5 (05:44):
That is Hilberto Marquez, bartender and global brand ambassador for
Illegal Mescal, a brand with operations in the US and Mexico.
Like me, Hilberto was also bored on Instagram, but I
don't like me. He clicked on the comments and noticed
something that I completely missed.
Speaker 6 (06:02):
Towards the top, someone said that it was not fair
to blame Ice because they were just doing their job.
Speaker 1 (06:09):
So I was like, WHOA, Who's this?
Speaker 5 (06:10):
He clicked on the profile.
Speaker 6 (06:12):
And then I just started seeing just all of these
racially charged posts or maybe even on a personal level, triggering.
Speaker 5 (06:19):
The person who had made that comment was also in
the liquor business. He was a partner at another Mescale brand.
Speaker 6 (06:25):
And so that really hit home for me. I'm like,
what is the deal with someone who doesn't appreciate the
struggle of the immigrant and the culture in general that
wants to consume, sell, and profit from the culture. I
didn't understand it. I don't understand it to this day.
Speaker 5 (06:41):
I've always had a close connection to Mescale. After all,
I'm from Whaka, the capital of Mescale, so I'd reached
out to a Li Morales, my friend and freelance journalist
living in Wohaka, to help me understand the Mescale business
culture and its connection to the American market.
Speaker 1 (06:58):
Hi Relli Ola Juan Diego.
Speaker 5 (07:01):
Really, First of all, Okay, many people know about tequila,
but what exactly is mescale?
Speaker 2 (07:08):
Oh, tequila is mescal, but not all mescal can be
considered tequila.
Speaker 5 (07:14):
Hmm, what do you mean by that?
Speaker 2 (07:16):
Well, like champagne, which can only be made in the
city of Champagne in France, tequila can only be produced
with blue agave in the city of Tequila Northwestern in
the state of Gali.
Speaker 4 (07:27):
School.
Speaker 2 (07:28):
Mescal, on the other hand, can be produced using a
variation of agaves in other Mexican states, although most popularly
in Wahaka.
Speaker 5 (07:37):
I see.
Speaker 2 (07:37):
The main factor is a denomination of origin. The tequila
denomination of origin was created in nineteen seventy four. Mescale
obtained its own denomination only twenty years later, in nineteen
ninety four.
Speaker 1 (07:52):
You must have it to.
Speaker 2 (07:53):
Sell and export your agave based product as authentic Mescale.
As of today, only nine out of thirty two Mexican
states hold the denomination of origin for mescal.
Speaker 5 (08:05):
What about mescale, Where does that term come from?
Speaker 2 (08:08):
Well, the term mescale or mescali as it's known in
Naguat the language of the Aztecs, means cocta gabe, and
it was originally a catch all term for any Agab
based looker.
Speaker 5 (08:19):
Speaking as a Juahakan, I know mescal is embedded in
our culture and it's as important as corn, beans and squash.
And there's evidence that shows that at least one form
of mescale has been consumed for over ten thousand years. Jahaka,
which is in the southern part of Mexico, produces ninety
percent of all mescal made in the country, and it
(08:40):
accounts for eighty percent of all exportation.
Speaker 4 (08:46):
You brek metal, centro, proactive, little chio.
Speaker 1 (08:54):
As parsia.
Speaker 2 (08:55):
Well, I've visited many of distilleries or pilenkas as we
call them, and I've spoken to many myros mescalleros who
are the masters of the mescale making process.
Speaker 1 (09:04):
They work on every step of.
Speaker 2 (09:06):
The production, from farming to the harvesting, cooking and fermenting
to the stilling.
Speaker 7 (09:11):
When the plant is ready, you go to where it is.
It can be the fields of the mountains and then
you shave the leaves off of it. And when you
shave the leaves off of the plant, you just left
with the core of the plant that has the shape
of a pineapple. So that's what they call it pina.
Speaker 5 (09:26):
This is a Mara Alonso, more popularly known as Wahaking,
a tour guide and cultural ambassador in Wohacka. I talked
to him about the process of making mescale.
Speaker 1 (09:36):
The cooking process.
Speaker 7 (09:37):
They call it tapada because they cover it. So it's
usually main in a conic oven that has the shape
of a cone. It's about three to four meters deep.
They throw rocks that they collect from the mountains or
from the rivers. They throw rocks and they at fired
to it and they're gonna let it sit for about
five to eight hours. They're gonna wait for their rocks
(09:58):
to get red hot. Once the rocks are red hot,
they use fiber of a gave that has.
Speaker 1 (10:03):
Been previously distilled.
Speaker 7 (10:05):
They put it on top of the rocks and they
wet it. They wet it so the rocks and touched
the plants, otherwise it's going to burn them. So like
cushion in between rocks and the plants.
Speaker 5 (10:15):
They'll then throw the pinas into the pit and add
yet another fiber of agave before covering it with some
plastic or dirt, forming some sort of mountain.
Speaker 7 (10:25):
From the moment you start to clean up the oven
until the moment you're ready to cover it takes about
fifteen to twenty hours.
Speaker 5 (10:31):
Then they'll let the agave cook onderground for about five
to six days before removing the dirt and the plastic
to take out the fiber of the agave. After that,
they'll cook the pinas and let them call off for
a couple of days or a couple of weeks. Even
then comes the process of smashing the cook pina.
Speaker 7 (10:50):
Some of them use a tawa, which is the circular
rock that is pulled by a horse or by a
donkey and circles, and in other regions they do a
more traditional machin it by hand.
Speaker 5 (11:02):
Once that process is complete, they put the fiber and
the juices of the agave into the wooden fermentation tanks
for approximately five days, and finally they distill it in
clay pods or copper steels twice.
Speaker 7 (11:18):
Sometimes you have to wait twenty years for a plant
to be ready, and then you have to dig it out,
take it to the through the whole process, and then
when you drink it, it's like eight hours of these
guys mashing it by hand, you know, seven days in
the fermentation, two days in the tessellation, you know, and
it's like you have learned to appreciate.
Speaker 4 (11:38):
It coming up and let you know usay, we learn
more about the production of escali and now the growing
demand is in fact in endangering agave. Stay with usas hey,
(12:07):
we're back before the break. We learned about the laborious
process of making escal. Now we're gonna look at what's
at stake with mass production when it comes to the
cultural and environmental impacts. So let's get back to a
piece from our archives by producers Juan die Or Ramirez
and Areli Morales from Waka.
Speaker 2 (12:28):
Since before I moved to my family's ancestral land this
past year, I've been critically researching brands and the sustainable
and social impacts of the boomy mescal industry due to
all of the work and resources that go into the
production process. For example, espadin agave is the most commonly
used agave plant To produce musca.
Speaker 1 (12:47):
Espadin only takes about five years to mature.
Speaker 2 (12:50):
Compared with let's say agave silvestres or wild agavez, which
can take up to.
Speaker 1 (12:55):
Twenty years to mature.
Speaker 2 (12:57):
Espadina is just one of a handful of agada that
can be formed, and that's the easiest to make mescale
with and eventually export to the US, the world's number
one international.
Speaker 1 (13:07):
Buyer of mescal.
Speaker 2 (13:08):
A lot of the rich in distinct flavors and aromas
of mescales depends largely on the type of magae agave
is used, and we are seeing that the over harvesting
and production of agavez silvestrees is leading to scarcity and
even possible extinction of some variations like agaba and fukrea matdugali.
Many of these zagavez are harvested off the sides of
(13:30):
the mountains where they naturally grow. The very few producers
are reforced in the zagavez. Let's listen to Gonzalo Martinez,
a fourth generation Maro mescalo from Santego, Matatlan, Matatlan, the
world hapital of mescal.
Speaker 8 (13:44):
Crouque falta mass mescal qula hinti quamas in masquegesiosis Pola
Parte Economicistas en contra tradition.
Speaker 2 (13:58):
He says that there needs to be more of a
mescale culture so people understand more so they are more
passionate producing it. Only for the money goes against the culture.
Speaker 8 (14:07):
Those pocos quintin and del minti at vida iste yoia
millenaria sono los qilo as in Nolan mitillos campos loscilo
producing zinco percento rel mintez.
Speaker 2 (14:24):
For Gonzalo, the few who understand this millinery beverage are
those who are in the fields. It's really physically taxing
to make mescal, he says, adding that maybe just five
or ten percent of all producers are really passionate about
this beverage.
Speaker 8 (14:42):
Gabe to the calo no de todos olympia man no
no metemos pesticidas.
Speaker 2 (14:51):
He says that they grow agabez the same with it.
Their grandparents did everything by hand, never with pesticides. Gonzalo
also highlights another issue, which is water. He says that
ten years ago there were maybe twenty producing distilleries in
San Diego Matatlan, which accounts for more than seventy percent
of all Wahaka's total mescale production, but virtually every family
(15:14):
in town and many across the Vaya Centrel where Matatlan
is located, live up the production of meska. Driving along
the Ruta Camino de Mescal on International Highway one ninety,
you'll spot hundreds of producers in agave farms. So that
means that basically everybody is digging to extract water from
the same vital source.
Speaker 8 (15:33):
The start avida, las pilas pus mammals, h yes, loos
Salio or las.
Speaker 2 (15:43):
Gonzalo says that if they don't rain in the mass
production of viscal, it will get out of hand if
it hasn't already, and he's not exaggerating. Water is scarce
in my municipality, where we have running water only twice
a week. Rain and water are an everyday conversation. Here
Santevo Matatlan and its water rights work under USO's costumbres,
(16:06):
the indigenous system of community governance that's still a stronghold
in many communities.
Speaker 1 (16:12):
In the state.
Speaker 2 (16:13):
Each community has its different roles, roles and services. You
basically must be born into the community to share the
land rights and privileges. In Brizil Scarbonposos, he says that
water is a very big problem with large companies digging
deep deposits.
Speaker 5 (16:32):
And while producing a bottle of mescale consumes all local resources,
gains from its sales do not necessarily stay in Wahaka.
Very few of the brands with the funds to export
to the US are Mexican producers. Many outsourced some, if
not all, of their mescale making, from farming, to distilling,
and even bottling and labeling. Some large companies purchase mescale
(16:56):
from small producers while they bottle it and label it
for the US markets and exporters have an increasing pool
to choose from. Mexico's production of mescal doubled from one
million liters in twenty fourteen to almost two million liters
in twenty sixteen, and by twenty nineteen, almost five million
(17:16):
liters were being exported. In twenty twenty alone, seventy percent
of all mescale exports went to the US.
Speaker 2 (17:24):
The farmers I've talked to did not want to go
on record to name the brands that they worked for
out of pure financial repercussion. Still, many of them say
that they believe that these companies that distance themselves from
the ancestral earth to bottle process are contributing to the
degradation of not only the way of life, but an
entire ecosystem. Never mind that the rising cost is already
(17:47):
making mescale more expensive for locals to consume. Many small
and generational producers do not have the means to regulate
and attain the Official Normal Mexicana, the official Mexican Standard
certification for exportation. The application itself costs over one hundred
(18:09):
and sixty four dollars. That doesn't include marketing, bottling, or regulation,
opening up mescale makers to sometimes predatory investors. So, yeah,
Juan Diego, as you see, there's more to mescale than
just its unique taste.
Speaker 4 (18:24):
We'll be right back. Yes, hey, we're back, and Juan
Diego and Areli are going to finish our story.
Speaker 5 (18:38):
Now, okay, realie, So let's go back to where the
story started. How can we explain the journey of mescale
from Wajaka to New York City, Los Angeles, or via
Instagram anywhere in the world for that matter.
Speaker 2 (18:52):
Well, some people would be surprised to hear that there
was a time when mescal was looked down on, seeing
as a beverage for the poor, drunk almost exclusively by
the indigenous people who never started drinking it. It was
relatively recent that mescal began experiencing a popularity boom in
Mexico and across borders. Mescale bars and Mescale cocktails are
(19:13):
found in every city, particularly in the US, thanks in
part to social media and its horizon mixology. In the
city of Long Beach, California, the line for a mescalero
a mescalebar seem to have never died down.
Speaker 1 (19:26):
Despite the pandemic.
Speaker 2 (19:33):
Las Perlas Madre Nativo in La are some of the
many Mescale bars that pop up in my daily feed.
Mescala has even made it to Hollywood due to those
badin a Mescal brand created by Brian Craston and Aaron Paul,
the co stars of AMC's hit TV show Breaking Bad.
But of course, the US connection goes far beyond filtered
(19:55):
photos on Instagram right.
Speaker 5 (19:57):
Many mescalletos and farm workers were for to migrate to
the US in the eighties and nineties after NAFTA, the
North American Free Trade Agreement, undervalued their agricultural products. This
contributed to the growth of the Mexican and documented population,
which went from one point three million in the nineteen
eighties to five point seven million in nineteen ninety five.
(20:19):
It was almost impossible to make a living from the
production and selling of mescal in Mexico. So when you
take all this into account, it's easy to argue that
mescal's popularity in the US is a direct result of
the cultural exchange that came with that migration.
Speaker 9 (20:35):
Yes, of course, my dad grew up in a big family,
ten siblings, and he's one of the oldest. You know,
back then, there weren't many opportunities like there's opportunities right now,
like selling mescal. That mescal wasn't popular. Mescal wasn't like
something that you could have just sell and make a
(20:56):
living out of it. So he decided that one day
he wanted a better future. Right in the eighties, he
migrated here in the United States.
Speaker 2 (21:06):
This is a lot for Lopez, who resides in the US.
He is the US Director of Operations for Lopereal Mescale
in Santa Monica, California. His father, Mario Lopez, was a
Maestro mescallero, the expert mescale maker for Loperreal Mescale until
February of this year, when he unfortunately passed away from
COVID nineteen. While in the US, the Mario worked in
(21:29):
La Kitchens, saving to open what eventually became the palenke Loperreal.
Speaker 9 (21:36):
We have our own Agaba plantations, we have our own distillery.
Everything is within the family. We do not source from
other distilleries, We do not buy from other agavi growers.
This is completely a family oriented company.
Speaker 2 (21:55):
In recent years, however, he's seen how businesses have exploded.
Speaker 9 (22:00):
Ever since Mescal took this booming, a lot of families
started to produce for a lot of brands. They're outsiders
that go and buy the juice and just battle it
with a different name, with a different brand, with a
different story. It is good and bad. It's good because
(22:21):
you know, it creates jobs and it creates opportunities. But
at the same time, it's also a downside because they
just work for other brands. They just work for other
companies or for several companies.
Speaker 1 (22:34):
But being truly independent isn't easy.
Speaker 9 (22:37):
It takes a lot of work and a lot of
effort and a lot of time that goes into creating
a brand, you know, creating and starting a brand. And
even when you have all of that, then what how
do you sell it? And I think that's very hard,
and a lot of people don't have that opportunity. You know,
it gets expensive along the way with everything that goes
(22:58):
into it.
Speaker 2 (23:00):
My fear, and I think you share this with Mejuan Diego,
is that the international appreciation of mescale is threatening the
indigenous sovereignty land and people who resilientely kept miscyle living
before it was hit. It's impossible for populations experiencing poverty
to turn down every opportunity that provides on funding now,
(23:20):
regardless of the depletion, pollution, and future repercussions.
Speaker 5 (23:25):
So any what can we do to become better consumers?
Speaker 2 (23:28):
Well, you have to drink responsibly, educate yourself. Don't be
afraid to ask your bartender who produced your miscyle and
where it came from. Rita bottle's label which includes basic
information about the mescal that you're about to drink, like
the name of the Maestro Mescaleto. Remember that there's more
to mescale than just the liquid.
Speaker 1 (23:48):
It's ancestral knowledge. Stiggish mescale is an inheritance.
Speaker 2 (23:57):
Like the Sypotech language spoken by Maestro mescalleto in Matatlin.
Speaker 1 (24:01):
Two s.
Speaker 5 (24:05):
Cheers Salu dishpell that means cheers, and Matt Gspeli gispel ndego.
Speaker 4 (24:31):
This episode, which originally aired in twenty twenty one, was
produced by Juan Dieo Ramirez and Areli Morales. It was
edited by Andrea Lopez Cruzado and mixed by Lea Sha Damron.
Fernanda Echavari is our managing editor. The Latino USA team
also includes Roxanna Guire, Julia Caruso, Jessica Ellis, Rebecca Renaldo,
(24:52):
Les Junior, Stephanie Lebo, Luis Luna Lori, mar Marquez, Juvieta Martinelli,
Monica Morales, Garcia, j j Carubin, Adrianna Rodriguez and Nancy Trujillo.
Beniei Amidis and I are executive producers. I'm your host
Mariao Hosa. Latino Usa is part of Iheart's Michaela Podcast Network.
Executive producers at iHeart are Leo Gomez and Arlene Santana.
(25:15):
Join us again on our next episode, Dear Listener. In
the meantime, I'll see you on all of our social
media and Dear Listener, don't forget to join Futuro Plus.
It will get you an opportunity to listen to the
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(25:37):
way of supporting futuro media, which we know you love,
so do it now. Esta approxima, la teva, Yes.
Speaker 2 (25:43):
Chiao Latino USA is made possible in part by the
William and Flora Hewlett Foundation for more than fifty years
advancing ideas and supporting institutions to promote a better world
at Hewlett dot org, The Heising Simons Foundation Unlocking knowledge,
(26:06):
opportunity and possibilities more at hsfoundation dot org, and Michelle
Mercer and Bruce Golden
You know reggaeton, but do you know the whole story?
Speaker 2 (00:04):
Hi?
Speaker 3 (00:05):
I'm Gini Monzadbo, Senior producer and sound designer of Loud
The History of Reggaeton?
Speaker 1 (00:10):
Did you hear the news?
Speaker 3 (00:12):
Loud is back by a popular demand. Listen to all
ten episodes that break down the beats, politics, and power
behind the genre, Hosted by herself Evie Queen. Listen now
only on Spotify.
Speaker 4 (00:36):
To make miscutten harvester's first shaved down the spiky leaves
of agaved plants in order to reach its core, turning
a large agavid plant into something that looks more like
around large pineapple. In Mexico's most indigenous state, Waka families
(00:57):
have been producing miscutt like this for generations, but starting
in the twenty tens, US consumers have been wanting more
and more of this traditionally made drink. By twenty twenty one,
Mescale had become the fastest growing spirit in the US,
(01:17):
with a global market estimated to be a half a
billion dollars by twenty twenty eight, and celebrities are cashing in.
Speaker 1 (01:26):
This is a bottle of dos ombres. It's mescal.
Speaker 3 (01:30):
Yeah, please stop telling us you love our tequila.
Speaker 4 (01:33):
It's mescal brands like Dos Ombres created by Breaking Bad
co stars Aaron Paul and Brian Cranston. It was important
for Aaron and I to do this right. Are buying
into the authenticity of the traditionally made spirit and bottling
it up for us consumers. The plant that makes mescale
(01:55):
actually takes years to grow, and as the popularity of
this guy increases, gaved plants are facing different pressures from
both the climate as well as the challenge of extinction.
So what does it mean to have so much interest
from business people outside of Mexico? Can you in fact
(02:16):
model up qahaka and sell it from Fudurro Media It's
Latino USA. I'm Maria Josa, and today to understand and
to appreciate Misca's production process and how to become a
(02:37):
better consumer of this traditional spirit, We're going to bring
you a story that aired first a few years ago
because there is a lot going on the world right now,
and you may need to come together this week to
be there for each other in some challenging times, but
it's also important to reflect on the positive. So we
(02:57):
hope you get to enjoy time with your fa meidia
and be thankful that you aren't together. So if you
raise a glass with some great Mexican mescal for sentences Sally,
there's a saying that goes, barto mal mescale bart dambien,
(03:21):
which essentially says, for everything bad, there's mescal, and for
everything good, there's mescal as well. Although tequila is the
most popular Mexican distilled beverage for a lot of people
outside of Mexico, mescal, it's much older sibling, is proving
to be an international popular cultural sensation in ways that
(03:43):
tequila never was. The way mescal is traditionally made can
put the world's finest wine makers to shame. What you
hear in the background is an agave farmer in the
central valley of Wahaka. He's chopping the prickly leaves from
(04:05):
a nagave plant that will eventually make its way through
the vigorous process of distilling in order to create miscale.
The drink is seriously mystical. Its origins are disputed, but
it is nonetheless considered the elixir of the gods of
the sapotech world. Due to the commercialization of tequila and
(04:26):
bureaucracy and the high cost of authenticating a spirit to
governmental standards, mescal was pushed to the shadows and was
left to be a drink of the poor. In fact,
when I first bought mescal in nineteen eighty one, I
got it in a plastic jug because you couldn't get
it in the liquor stores. But now mescal is finding
(04:47):
its way to Instagram feeds and to trendy barkers across
the United States, and producers of mescal are trying to
strike a balance between mass commercialization and ethical farming of
the crop that makes miscale. Most importantly, they want to
make sure those in the business and consumers alike understand
and appreciate the culture behind the millinery.
Speaker 5 (05:07):
Drink.
Speaker 4 (05:08):
Producers Juan Dio Ramirez in New York and Aredi Morales
in Wajaca are gonna tell us more.
Speaker 5 (05:18):
It's the beginning of the pandemic. And I found myself
doom scrolling through Instagram. Then a picture published by the
La taco An independent news outlet in La catches my eye.
It was from a protest against ICE, the Immigration and
Customs Enforcement Agency. The post depicted people in support of immigrants.
They held Mexican flags and a woman had a sign
(05:41):
that read.
Speaker 6 (05:42):
I drink my orchata warm because fuck Ice.
Speaker 5 (05:44):
That is Hilberto Marquez, bartender and global brand ambassador for
Illegal Mescal, a brand with operations in the US and Mexico.
Like me, Hilberto was also bored on Instagram, but I
don't like me. He clicked on the comments and noticed
something that I completely missed.
Speaker 6 (06:02):
Towards the top, someone said that it was not fair
to blame Ice because they were just doing their job.
Speaker 1 (06:09):
So I was like, WHOA, Who's this?
Speaker 5 (06:10):
He clicked on the profile.
Speaker 6 (06:12):
And then I just started seeing just all of these
racially charged posts or maybe even on a personal level, triggering.
Speaker 5 (06:19):
The person who had made that comment was also in
the liquor business. He was a partner at another Mescale brand.
Speaker 6 (06:25):
And so that really hit home for me. I'm like,
what is the deal with someone who doesn't appreciate the
struggle of the immigrant and the culture in general that
wants to consume, sell, and profit from the culture. I
didn't understand it. I don't understand it to this day.
Speaker 5 (06:41):
I've always had a close connection to Mescale. After all,
I'm from Whaka, the capital of Mescale, so I'd reached
out to a Li Morales, my friend and freelance journalist
living in Wohaka, to help me understand the Mescale business
culture and its connection to the American market.
Speaker 1 (06:58):
Hi Relli Ola Juan Diego.
Speaker 5 (07:01):
Really, First of all, Okay, many people know about tequila,
but what exactly is mescale?
Speaker 2 (07:08):
Oh, tequila is mescal, but not all mescal can be
considered tequila.
Speaker 5 (07:14):
Hmm, what do you mean by that?
Speaker 2 (07:16):
Well, like champagne, which can only be made in the
city of Champagne in France, tequila can only be produced
with blue agave in the city of Tequila Northwestern in
the state of Gali.
Speaker 4 (07:27):
School.
Speaker 2 (07:28):
Mescal, on the other hand, can be produced using a
variation of agaves in other Mexican states, although most popularly
in Wahaka.
Speaker 5 (07:37):
I see.
Speaker 2 (07:37):
The main factor is a denomination of origin. The tequila
denomination of origin was created in nineteen seventy four. Mescale
obtained its own denomination only twenty years later, in nineteen
ninety four.
Speaker 1 (07:52):
You must have it to.
Speaker 2 (07:53):
Sell and export your agave based product as authentic Mescale.
As of today, only nine out of thirty two Mexican
states hold the denomination of origin for mescal.
Speaker 5 (08:05):
What about mescale, Where does that term come from?
Speaker 2 (08:08):
Well, the term mescale or mescali as it's known in
Naguat the language of the Aztecs, means cocta gabe, and
it was originally a catch all term for any Agab
based looker.
Speaker 5 (08:19):
Speaking as a Juahakan, I know mescal is embedded in
our culture and it's as important as corn, beans and squash.
And there's evidence that shows that at least one form
of mescale has been consumed for over ten thousand years. Jahaka,
which is in the southern part of Mexico, produces ninety
percent of all mescal made in the country, and it
(08:40):
accounts for eighty percent of all exportation.
Speaker 4 (08:46):
You brek metal, centro, proactive, little chio.
Speaker 1 (08:54):
As parsia.
Speaker 2 (08:55):
Well, I've visited many of distilleries or pilenkas as we
call them, and I've spoken to many myros mescalleros who
are the masters of the mescale making process.
Speaker 1 (09:04):
They work on every step of.
Speaker 2 (09:06):
The production, from farming to the harvesting, cooking and fermenting
to the stilling.
Speaker 7 (09:11):
When the plant is ready, you go to where it is.
It can be the fields of the mountains and then
you shave the leaves off of it. And when you
shave the leaves off of the plant, you just left
with the core of the plant that has the shape
of a pineapple. So that's what they call it pina.
Speaker 5 (09:26):
This is a Mara Alonso, more popularly known as Wahaking,
a tour guide and cultural ambassador in Wohacka. I talked
to him about the process of making mescale.
Speaker 1 (09:36):
The cooking process.
Speaker 7 (09:37):
They call it tapada because they cover it. So it's
usually main in a conic oven that has the shape
of a cone. It's about three to four meters deep.
They throw rocks that they collect from the mountains or
from the rivers. They throw rocks and they at fired
to it and they're gonna let it sit for about
five to eight hours. They're gonna wait for their rocks
(09:58):
to get red hot. Once the rocks are red hot,
they use fiber of a gave that has.
Speaker 1 (10:03):
Been previously distilled.
Speaker 7 (10:05):
They put it on top of the rocks and they
wet it. They wet it so the rocks and touched
the plants, otherwise it's going to burn them. So like
cushion in between rocks and the plants.
Speaker 5 (10:15):
They'll then throw the pinas into the pit and add
yet another fiber of agave before covering it with some
plastic or dirt, forming some sort of mountain.
Speaker 7 (10:25):
From the moment you start to clean up the oven
until the moment you're ready to cover it takes about
fifteen to twenty hours.
Speaker 5 (10:31):
Then they'll let the agave cook onderground for about five
to six days before removing the dirt and the plastic
to take out the fiber of the agave. After that,
they'll cook the pinas and let them call off for
a couple of days or a couple of weeks. Even
then comes the process of smashing the cook pina.
Speaker 7 (10:50):
Some of them use a tawa, which is the circular
rock that is pulled by a horse or by a
donkey and circles, and in other regions they do a
more traditional machin it by hand.
Speaker 5 (11:02):
Once that process is complete, they put the fiber and
the juices of the agave into the wooden fermentation tanks
for approximately five days, and finally they distill it in
clay pods or copper steels twice.
Speaker 7 (11:18):
Sometimes you have to wait twenty years for a plant
to be ready, and then you have to dig it out,
take it to the through the whole process, and then
when you drink it, it's like eight hours of these
guys mashing it by hand, you know, seven days in
the fermentation, two days in the tessellation, you know, and
it's like you have learned to appreciate.
Speaker 4 (11:38):
It coming up and let you know usay, we learn
more about the production of escali and now the growing
demand is in fact in endangering agave. Stay with usas hey,
(12:07):
we're back before the break. We learned about the laborious
process of making escal. Now we're gonna look at what's
at stake with mass production when it comes to the
cultural and environmental impacts. So let's get back to a
piece from our archives by producers Juan die Or Ramirez
and Areli Morales from Waka.
Speaker 2 (12:28):
Since before I moved to my family's ancestral land this
past year, I've been critically researching brands and the sustainable
and social impacts of the boomy mescal industry due to
all of the work and resources that go into the
production process. For example, espadin agave is the most commonly
used agave plant To produce musca.
Speaker 1 (12:47):
Espadin only takes about five years to mature.
Speaker 2 (12:50):
Compared with let's say agave silvestres or wild agavez, which
can take up to.
Speaker 1 (12:55):
Twenty years to mature.
Speaker 2 (12:57):
Espadina is just one of a handful of agada that
can be formed, and that's the easiest to make mescale
with and eventually export to the US, the world's number
one international.
Speaker 1 (13:07):
Buyer of mescal.
Speaker 2 (13:08):
A lot of the rich in distinct flavors and aromas
of mescales depends largely on the type of magae agave
is used, and we are seeing that the over harvesting
and production of agavez silvestrees is leading to scarcity and
even possible extinction of some variations like agaba and fukrea matdugali.
Many of these zagavez are harvested off the sides of
(13:30):
the mountains where they naturally grow. The very few producers
are reforced in the zagavez. Let's listen to Gonzalo Martinez,
a fourth generation Maro mescalo from Santego, Matatlan, Matatlan, the
world hapital of mescal.
Speaker 8 (13:44):
Crouque falta mass mescal qula hinti quamas in masquegesiosis Pola
Parte Economicistas en contra tradition.
Speaker 2 (13:58):
He says that there needs to be more of a
mescale culture so people understand more so they are more
passionate producing it. Only for the money goes against the culture.
Speaker 8 (14:07):
Those pocos quintin and del minti at vida iste yoia
millenaria sono los qilo as in Nolan mitillos campos loscilo
producing zinco percento rel mintez.
Speaker 2 (14:24):
For Gonzalo, the few who understand this millinery beverage are
those who are in the fields. It's really physically taxing
to make mescal, he says, adding that maybe just five
or ten percent of all producers are really passionate about
this beverage.
Speaker 8 (14:42):
Gabe to the calo no de todos olympia man no
no metemos pesticidas.
Speaker 2 (14:51):
He says that they grow agabez the same with it.
Their grandparents did everything by hand, never with pesticides. Gonzalo
also highlights another issue, which is water. He says that
ten years ago there were maybe twenty producing distilleries in
San Diego Matatlan, which accounts for more than seventy percent
of all Wahaka's total mescale production, but virtually every family
(15:14):
in town and many across the Vaya Centrel where Matatlan
is located, live up the production of meska. Driving along
the Ruta Camino de Mescal on International Highway one ninety,
you'll spot hundreds of producers in agave farms. So that
means that basically everybody is digging to extract water from
the same vital source.
Speaker 8 (15:33):
The start avida, las pilas pus mammals, h yes, loos
Salio or las.
Speaker 2 (15:43):
Gonzalo says that if they don't rain in the mass
production of viscal, it will get out of hand if
it hasn't already, and he's not exaggerating. Water is scarce
in my municipality, where we have running water only twice
a week. Rain and water are an everyday conversation. Here
Santevo Matatlan and its water rights work under USO's costumbres,
(16:06):
the indigenous system of community governance that's still a stronghold
in many communities.
Speaker 1 (16:12):
In the state.
Speaker 2 (16:13):
Each community has its different roles, roles and services. You
basically must be born into the community to share the
land rights and privileges. In Brizil Scarbonposos, he says that
water is a very big problem with large companies digging
deep deposits.
Speaker 5 (16:32):
And while producing a bottle of mescale consumes all local resources,
gains from its sales do not necessarily stay in Wahaka.
Very few of the brands with the funds to export
to the US are Mexican producers. Many outsourced some, if
not all, of their mescale making, from farming, to distilling,
and even bottling and labeling. Some large companies purchase mescale
(16:56):
from small producers while they bottle it and label it
for the US markets and exporters have an increasing pool
to choose from. Mexico's production of mescal doubled from one
million liters in twenty fourteen to almost two million liters
in twenty sixteen, and by twenty nineteen, almost five million
(17:16):
liters were being exported. In twenty twenty alone, seventy percent
of all mescale exports went to the US.
Speaker 2 (17:24):
The farmers I've talked to did not want to go
on record to name the brands that they worked for
out of pure financial repercussion. Still, many of them say
that they believe that these companies that distance themselves from
the ancestral earth to bottle process are contributing to the
degradation of not only the way of life, but an
entire ecosystem. Never mind that the rising cost is already
(17:47):
making mescale more expensive for locals to consume. Many small
and generational producers do not have the means to regulate
and attain the Official Normal Mexicana, the official Mexican Standard
certification for exportation. The application itself costs over one hundred
(18:09):
and sixty four dollars. That doesn't include marketing, bottling, or regulation,
opening up mescale makers to sometimes predatory investors. So, yeah,
Juan Diego, as you see, there's more to mescale than
just its unique taste.
Speaker 4 (18:24):
We'll be right back. Yes, hey, we're back, and Juan
Diego and Areli are going to finish our story.
Speaker 5 (18:38):
Now, okay, realie, So let's go back to where the
story started. How can we explain the journey of mescale
from Wajaka to New York City, Los Angeles, or via
Instagram anywhere in the world for that matter.
Speaker 2 (18:52):
Well, some people would be surprised to hear that there
was a time when mescal was looked down on, seeing
as a beverage for the poor, drunk almost exclusively by
the indigenous people who never started drinking it. It was
relatively recent that mescal began experiencing a popularity boom in
Mexico and across borders. Mescale bars and Mescale cocktails are
(19:13):
found in every city, particularly in the US, thanks in
part to social media and its horizon mixology. In the
city of Long Beach, California, the line for a mescalero
a mescalebar seem to have never died down.
Speaker 1 (19:26):
Despite the pandemic.
Speaker 2 (19:33):
Las Perlas Madre Nativo in La are some of the
many Mescale bars that pop up in my daily feed.
Mescala has even made it to Hollywood due to those
badin a Mescal brand created by Brian Craston and Aaron Paul,
the co stars of AMC's hit TV show Breaking Bad.
But of course, the US connection goes far beyond filtered
(19:55):
photos on Instagram right.
Speaker 5 (19:57):
Many mescalletos and farm workers were for to migrate to
the US in the eighties and nineties after NAFTA, the
North American Free Trade Agreement, undervalued their agricultural products. This
contributed to the growth of the Mexican and documented population,
which went from one point three million in the nineteen
eighties to five point seven million in nineteen ninety five.
(20:19):
It was almost impossible to make a living from the
production and selling of mescal in Mexico. So when you
take all this into account, it's easy to argue that
mescal's popularity in the US is a direct result of
the cultural exchange that came with that migration.
Speaker 9 (20:35):
Yes, of course, my dad grew up in a big family,
ten siblings, and he's one of the oldest. You know,
back then, there weren't many opportunities like there's opportunities right now,
like selling mescal. That mescal wasn't popular. Mescal wasn't like
something that you could have just sell and make a
(20:56):
living out of it. So he decided that one day
he wanted a better future. Right in the eighties, he
migrated here in the United States.
Speaker 2 (21:06):
This is a lot for Lopez, who resides in the US.
He is the US Director of Operations for Lopereal Mescale
in Santa Monica, California. His father, Mario Lopez, was a
Maestro mescallero, the expert mescale maker for Loperreal Mescale until
February of this year, when he unfortunately passed away from
COVID nineteen. While in the US, the Mario worked in
(21:29):
La Kitchens, saving to open what eventually became the palenke Loperreal.
Speaker 9 (21:36):
We have our own Agaba plantations, we have our own distillery.
Everything is within the family. We do not source from
other distilleries, We do not buy from other agavi growers.
This is completely a family oriented company.
Speaker 2 (21:55):
In recent years, however, he's seen how businesses have exploded.
Speaker 9 (22:00):
Ever since Mescal took this booming, a lot of families
started to produce for a lot of brands. They're outsiders
that go and buy the juice and just battle it
with a different name, with a different brand, with a
different story. It is good and bad. It's good because
(22:21):
you know, it creates jobs and it creates opportunities. But
at the same time, it's also a downside because they
just work for other brands. They just work for other
companies or for several companies.
Speaker 1 (22:34):
But being truly independent isn't easy.
Speaker 9 (22:37):
It takes a lot of work and a lot of
effort and a lot of time that goes into creating
a brand, you know, creating and starting a brand. And
even when you have all of that, then what how
do you sell it? And I think that's very hard,
and a lot of people don't have that opportunity. You know,
it gets expensive along the way with everything that goes
(22:58):
into it.
Speaker 2 (23:00):
My fear, and I think you share this with Mejuan Diego,
is that the international appreciation of mescale is threatening the
indigenous sovereignty land and people who resilientely kept miscyle living
before it was hit. It's impossible for populations experiencing poverty
to turn down every opportunity that provides on funding now,
(23:20):
regardless of the depletion, pollution, and future repercussions.
Speaker 5 (23:25):
So any what can we do to become better consumers?
Speaker 2 (23:28):
Well, you have to drink responsibly, educate yourself. Don't be
afraid to ask your bartender who produced your miscyle and
where it came from. Rita bottle's label which includes basic
information about the mescal that you're about to drink, like
the name of the Maestro Mescaleto. Remember that there's more
to mescale than just the liquid.
Speaker 1 (23:48):
It's ancestral knowledge. Stiggish mescale is an inheritance.
Speaker 2 (23:57):
Like the Sypotech language spoken by Maestro mescalleto in Matatlin.
Speaker 1 (24:01):
Two s.
Speaker 5 (24:05):
Cheers Salu dishpell that means cheers, and Matt Gspeli gispel ndego.
Speaker 4 (24:31):
This episode, which originally aired in twenty twenty one, was
produced by Juan Dieo Ramirez and Areli Morales. It was
edited by Andrea Lopez Cruzado and mixed by Lea Sha Damron.
Fernanda Echavari is our managing editor. The Latino USA team
also includes Roxanna Guire, Julia Caruso, Jessica Ellis, Rebecca Renaldo,
(24:52):
Les Junior, Stephanie Lebo, Luis Luna Lori, mar Marquez, Juvieta Martinelli,
Monica Morales, Garcia, j j Carubin, Adrianna Rodriguez and Nancy Trujillo.
Beniei Amidis and I are executive producers. I'm your host
Mariao Hosa. Latino Usa is part of Iheart's Michaela Podcast Network.
Executive producers at iHeart are Leo Gomez and Arlene Santana.
(25:15):
Join us again on our next episode, Dear Listener. In
the meantime, I'll see you on all of our social
media and Dear Listener, don't forget to join Futuro Plus.
It will get you an opportunity to listen to the
episodes like this without any ads, and you get cool
virtual events and bonus content. It's fun, and it's a
(25:37):
way of supporting futuro media, which we know you love,
so do it now. Esta approxima, la teva, Yes.
Speaker 2 (25:43):
Chiao Latino USA is made possible in part by the
William and Flora Hewlett Foundation for more than fifty years
advancing ideas and supporting institutions to promote a better world
at Hewlett dot org, The Heising Simons Foundation Unlocking knowledge,
(26:06):
opportunity and possibilities more at hsfoundation dot org, and Michelle
Mercer and Bruce Golden
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