May 31, 2024 • 44 mins
In November 2021, Robert Santos became the first Latino to be confirmed as the Director of the U.S. Census Bureau.
Santos is no stranger to the federal agency. Before his nomination and confirmation, Santos had warned that former President Donald Trump’s interference of the census count would result in one of the most flawed census counts in U.S. history. Census counts are important because they help determine congressional representation and how billions of federal dollars are distributed.
In this conversation with Maria Hinojosa, Santos shares the census’ complicated history, his efforts to rebuild trust among communities, his love for his hometown of San Antonio and more.
This episode originally aired in 2022.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
I absolutely know that issues exist, and they are cultural
and they are baked into society, but that doesn't mean
we don't have an obligation to try. That's what I'm doing,
That's what we all have to do, and we have
to do it together.
Speaker 2 (00:19):
From Fudro Media and BrX, It's Latino USA. I'm Marieno
Rosa today a conversation with Robert Santos, the first Latino
to lead the US Census Bureau. Dear listener, you might
remember that in twenty nineteen, the Supreme Court blocked the
(00:41):
Trump administration's push to include a question about citizenship status
in the twenty twenty census. Well, in early May of
twenty twenty four, House Republicans passed a bill that is
reminiscent of those very same efforts. The Quote Equal Representation
(01:02):
Act is a measure that seeks to include a citizenship
question on the next census, scheduled for twenty thirty, and
to exclude people who are not citizens from the census count.
That bill now sits with the majority Democrat Senate, and so,
dear listener, we felt that it was important to share
(01:23):
with you again a conversation that we had with Robert Santos,
who is the director of the US Census Bureau. Santos
told us why being counted in the Census is important
and what exactly he was doing to rebuild trust among communities.
Here's my conversation with Robert Santos from twenty twenty two.
(01:46):
President Joe Biden announced last April that his intended nominee
to lead the US Census would be Robert Santos. Then
just a few weeks later, Santos went before the Senate
Homeland Security Committee for his confirmation hearing.
Speaker 1 (02:00):
It's an honor and I'm humbled to appear before you
today as the nominee for the director of the Census Bureau.
I'd like to thank the President and Secretary Rimando for
the trust they have placed me with this nomination.
Speaker 2 (02:15):
Santos is super proud about being born and raised in
the barrios of San Antonio, Texas. He has served as
President of the American Statistical Association, vice President and chief
methodologist at the Urban Institute, along with other big roles
throughout his career. Santos has more than forty years of
(02:37):
experience in survey research, and he specializes in quantitative and
qualitative research design.
Speaker 1 (02:44):
I wouldn't be here today without the endurance support of
my family. At age eighteen, I married my wife, Adela,
and we've now been married forty eight years. She's my
most important source of support, counsel, and love. Are two children,
Emilio and Cladissa, always support me and are constant sources
(03:04):
of comfort and pride.
Speaker 2 (03:06):
During his confirmation hearing, Santos was asked about redistricting along
with potential big challenges for the upcoming twenty thirty Census.
Santos was confirmed in November of twenty twenty one. A
few months later and January of this year, he was
sworn in as the twenty sixth Director of the US Census,
and he is the first Latino to hold that position.
Speaker 1 (03:30):
Hi Robert Santos I, Robert Sambo will support in defan
will support in the fan.
Speaker 2 (03:37):
Santos is no stranger to the US Census. Before his
nomination and confirmation, he warned in October of twenty twenty
that former President Trump's interference with the census count could
result in one of the most flawed census counts in history.
Census counts are important because they helped determine the number
(03:59):
of seats each state has in the US House of Representatives.
It's also used to help allocate and distribute billions of
federal dollars across local communities throughout the entire country. Trump
wanted a question on the past census that asked for
people's US citizenship status. Well, you need it for many reasons.
Speaker 1 (04:20):
Number one, you needed new words with Congress, you needed
for Congress spati picking.
Speaker 2 (04:24):
You needed for appropriations. Citizenship has been on that thing
most of the time for many many years. A citizenship
question had not been on the census for several decades,
and of course citizenship status is not used for redistricting.
And after several lawsuits, the Supreme Court ultimately blocked the
(04:47):
citizenship question from being on the twenty twenty census, but
the damage had already been done and there was an
even further gap in trust with communities across the United States.
The weaponization of the US Census isn't something new. We've
seen it with the founding of this country, when enslaved
(05:11):
Africans were counted as three fifths of a person, and
later when Japanese Americans were in prison and tracked down
by using the census. So on today's episode, I have
a conversation with director Robert Santos about his new role,
his love for his hometown of San Antonio, and the
(05:32):
complicated history of the US Census. Director Robert Santos, Hello,
and thank you so much for being with me here
today on Latino USA.
Speaker 1 (05:45):
I was ready to climb a ladder and do the
interview upside down if I could have the opportunity to
be a part of this experience with you, because I've
always valued everything that you've done on your program.
Speaker 2 (05:58):
Oh my gosh, well, thank you. I don't I am
actually I'm having a moment. Did the director of the
US Census just say to me that he values the
work that I've been doing and knows my work? I
really am having a moment.
Speaker 1 (06:12):
Every week we listen to your program and the job
you're doing to help the United States understand the value
of our rich diversity of Latinos, I think is amazing.
Speaker 2 (06:24):
Thank you, Director Santos for being for being a supporter
of our work and knowing our work. It really means
a lot. And I think I'm going to start there
because if I think about my experience as a Latina
in the media over the last thirty years, I think
that people always saw me kind of like, you know, like, oh,
here she goes again bringing up Latinos and Latinas, and
(06:44):
I think, I mean, I'm not a big mathematician or
a statistician like you, but I can read a demographic
chart and I could see that the Latino population was
just increasing. And so for a lot of my career,
people have kind of been like, oh God, here she
comes talking about Latinos again. I always found it very
(07:06):
interesting that people felt like it was a bother or
like a threat or a problem instead of just like, no,
but we're just kind of looking at that, And I'm
wondering if you're kind of having that same sensation in
your life right now.
Speaker 1 (07:18):
Yeah, thank you for offering that perspective, because actually I've
been having that type of interaction my entire career. I've
had episode after episode where I was the sole Latino
in a room of research decision makers who maybe hadn't
realized that when they come to the table and they
(07:41):
frame research questions or they perceive problems that they want
to help society solve, they do it with their cultural lens.
I've had many instances where I basically say, excuse me
if you do that, you actually will be doing harm
and not good. Even though the statistical design and the
(08:04):
research design was pristine. However, if you frame the question
the wrong way, or you capture information in a way
that doesn't really reveal what's going on, or interpret it
by talking to people in the community to help get
it better understanding, you can end up actually doing more
(08:24):
harm than good.
Speaker 2 (08:26):
And the other thing I need to know, Director Santos,
I'm sorry, I just need to know. I know you
used to have a ponytail. Do you still it's growing? Holy.
Speaker 1 (08:38):
I was asked to be considered for the nomination and
I decided to do it. I did it out of
you know, Goda Son. I wanted to help my country,
and I believed I could offer something as a Latino
from my rich perspective, cultural perspective, and research perspective. But
the one thing that I decided is that I have
(09:00):
to be myself, and myself is Santhos with the ponytail.
And so I'm going to be myself and try to
do the best I can to help the Census Bureau
to help the American people. And if it works, great,
and if it doesn't, I tried.
Speaker 2 (09:18):
I think it's really cool. I just want to say,
because one you're rocking it, it works, and two I
just think you're saying something about just having to be yourself. Right.
So recently I was in San Antonio. That's the city
of where you were born and raised. I was at
Trinity University giving a lecture, and you know, I love
San Antonio. It's one of my favorite cities because what
(09:40):
I've been going to it ever since a little girl,
because I was always driving through Texas to get from
Chicago to Mexico. It's a majority Latino city in the
United States, in the state of Texas. So yeah, not
as a kid from San Antonio, but as somebody who
understands the power of the work of the census, demography
and the picture of the future of the United States.
(10:03):
I mean, is San Antonio in fact the future of
what the United States looks like? And what does that
mean to you?
Speaker 1 (10:10):
Well, there are many really interesting things about San Antonio.
The fact that it has always had a very prominent
place for Mexican Americans in particular, but Latinos more generally
as being part of the city. Yet when I was
growing up, it was pretty effectively segregated and even in
(10:33):
some of the Latino communities. You know, I lived on
the side of the Woodland Lake that you know, wasn't
considered the best part, and so if I went into
the other side where there were folks were better off,
I might be looked upon a little differently. But it's
interesting that we've embraced the culture of the Mexican American
(10:55):
community in San Antonio.
Speaker 2 (10:57):
I mean, I guess the reason why one of the
reasons why I keep on asking about San Antonio as
a city of the future and and what it looks like.
And you're right. I mean, you get out of the
airport in San Antonio because I was just there and
there were these like huge artist representations of Lata's, the
Chipotle Chiles, Chipotle Salsa ervees, and I was like, only
(11:21):
in San Antonio, will you see this? Like at the
airport it's and and and all of this is like
we're talking about San Antonio, and you know, as it
relates to a kind of city of the future with
a kind of sense of joy and hope and laughter.
But you know this, Director Santos, that actually the way
the narrative goes right now in the United States today
(11:43):
is that Latinos and Latinas post some kind of a
threat that we're majority not from the United States, that
we're coming here, that we're new. So put those two
things together for me, h.
Speaker 1 (11:57):
Well, it's not unusual for societies to have segments of
the population that view individuals of different backgrounds to be threats,
when in fact it's very much of an opportunity. We
could not survive without immigrants coming in and helping our
economy in ways that otherwise the citizen population would not
(12:20):
be able to contribute. So I very much value the diversity,
and I think that's one of our strongest points as
a nation, and that's why I take so much pride
in being able to advance the measurement and the counting
and the learning about the rich diversity of our population
and how it's getting more diverse. It's inevitable, as you said,
(12:43):
it's coming, and we need to find better ways to
leverage and embrace that because it's going to improve society.
But I bring a different perspective. I think to research
and the Census Bureau and sort of research more generally
social science research, and I believe that you have to
(13:03):
bring your whole self. So I believe in diversity, equity, inclusion,
and I think in order to be a better scientist,
a better mathematician, a better statistician, you need to bring
your culture to the table when you talk about and
think about research, about interpreting results, about how you analyze it,
(13:24):
even how you frame what it is that you're going
to look at, because that way you can actually learn
more and gain more relevant insights into particular problems, whether
it's hunger or housing, or the pandemic and vaccination statuses
or whatever.
Speaker 2 (13:42):
Okay, so, Director Santos, I actually want to take you
back to those days when you were growing up as
a kid in San Antonio. You were on the west
side of the city. You said it was a very
segregated city, and so you growing up what was life
like back then as a were you like, yeah, we're
definitely the majority. We got this, We're going places. Or
(14:06):
did you feel like, wow, this country's in the middle
of a civil rights era. Latinos and Latinas were not
necessarily visible.
Speaker 1 (14:15):
So what was it To be honest, I was a
kid in the sixties, I was in elementary school and
middle school, and I graduated in seventy two, and son't
I wasn't able until I was maybe in grad school
at Michigan to really connect the dots fully, to realize
the value and importance of being a Latino. And that's
(14:38):
where between my college and graduate school years where I
really embraced and understood the magnitude of the societal issues.
Speaker 3 (14:49):
That we were dealing with.
Speaker 1 (14:51):
But back when I was a kid, I was basically surviving.
I was fortunate enough to go to parochial school for
twelve years that instilled some great values in me that
I take with me and I use every day of
my forty year career as well as.
Speaker 3 (15:10):
Now my continuing career.
Speaker 1 (15:12):
The Census Bureaum and those values of trying to help people,
those values of being inclusive and treating people fairly and
trying to help society, those are really important and they
drive me and they've drive everything that I've done, you know,
treating people with respect, regardless of race, color, creed, religion,
(15:32):
or whatever.
Speaker 2 (15:33):
So your mom and dad worked at the air Force base, right.
Speaker 1 (15:37):
Yes, there were some very fortunate to have civil service
positions at Kelly Air Force Base while it was open.
Speaker 2 (15:46):
So this notion of I see you as my equal,
a child of the civil rights era. Where was that
coming from? Was that your mom and dad bringing it home?
And talk to me a little bit about having a
mom and dad in the air force, because I mean,
my dad was a scientist, medical doctor, researcher. But we
didn't talk that stuff over dinner. But like your dad
(16:08):
was asking you math questions, So take me a little
bit back.
Speaker 1 (16:13):
Yeah, it's interesting. We had a really tightly knit family
and everything circulated around familiar and because everything revolved around family,
our focus was we didn't necessarily at the dinner table
talk about the inequities of society as much as talked
(16:34):
about familia and how we help each other and how
we need to strive to get better education and get
good jobs.
Speaker 3 (16:43):
I mean, that was what it was all about.
Speaker 1 (16:45):
And you know, how could anyone blame familias for talking
about that in San Antonio who were Mexican American and
whose grandparents had fled because of the revolution, the violence
in northern Mexico that was going on to survive and
they started in new life and with almost nothing, and
my grandparents starting with jobs as gardeners or as cleaning people.
Speaker 3 (17:10):
We then grew and.
Speaker 1 (17:12):
Generation after generation improved and that pursuit of the American dream.
That's really what was the focus of discussion. And me
as a little kid with my brother who's no longer
with us, our focus was on trying to have as
good of a time as we could, especially with my
parents both being off to work in us being latchkey kids,
(17:34):
so we got into all kinds of mischief.
Speaker 2 (17:37):
Okay, well, I need to know what mischief looks like
in West San Antonio. Then give me a couple of examples.
What were you guys doing.
Speaker 1 (17:45):
Well, it was mischief in the sense of, you know,
we'd have you know, mudball fights in San Antonio where
the back of the house was yeah, mudball. We just
you know, throw water in the dirt, make mudballs and
come at it and the back of the house would
be covered with mudballs that stuck to the side of
the house. Or we'd grab our bicycles and we were
(18:09):
like what eight, nine, ten years old now, I'd say ten,
eleven or twelve, and then head off from Woodlawn Lake
area to pass downtown to Hemisphere where it was being built,
so we could watch the tower going up wow, or
go out to the airport and watch the jets come
in and that's really long distances for kids in the
(18:30):
middle of the summer with no water.
Speaker 3 (18:32):
We just stop at.
Speaker 1 (18:33):
Gas stations, but we would do crazy, crazy stuff like that.
Speaker 2 (18:40):
It's kind of incredible that kids get into all that
mischief and survive, right, It's kind of amazing.
Speaker 1 (18:45):
What's really important, though, is if you combine that sense
of adventure with the values that were instilled during the
schooling that I had. It's those two things that have
propelled me to take chances and risks where maybe other
folks would not have done it. So pretty much in
(19:07):
every job I've ever taken, it's been a step up,
and I've said, oh my god, can I Am I
really going to be able to do this? And then
I'd end up saying, well, look, just like I told
you earlier, I'm going to try my best. I'm going
to be myself and if I can contribute, great, and
if I can't, I'll be able to look myself in
the mirror and say I tried my best.
Speaker 2 (19:35):
Coming up on let you know, USA Director Santos on
rebuilding trust and facing the systemic problems at the Census,
Stay with us, Yes, Hey, we're back. We're going to
(20:11):
continue now with my conversation with Director of the US
Census Bureau Robert Santos. The interesting thing, Director Santos, is
that I have a lot of feelings about the Censes.
With the Censes, it's actually something that has had an
(20:33):
impact in my life in very interesting ways. And I
kind of be honest with you, and I'm sure you're
not going to be surprised when I'm like, it's kind
of a love hate relationship with the Senses. I think
I remember as a little girl that Hispanic was a
term that was created for the Census by a Republican administration,
and my family did not like the Republicans. So I
(20:54):
was like, I'm not Hispanic, I'm not a term that
was created. So the Census has this kind of again
this impact. In fact, in twenty ten, when I form
Futuro Media, my own company, one of the things that
made me believe that I could do it was data
from the Censes. Right. The data was that the Latino
population growth from twenty to twenty ten had grown at
(21:17):
forty three percent. So the Census is an organization that
we I think you too have had a love hate
relationship with am I right? How do you see how
the Census has impacted your personal life. Were you that
guy who was like thinking about the censes like decades.
Speaker 1 (21:38):
Ago, actually decades ago? I was because I actually did
projects for the Census as a as a researcher. I
served for six years on the advisory committee and said
the same thing day one as I did six years
later as I walked out the door in terms of advice.
But I actually have not had a love hate relationship.
(22:00):
I've had a love love relationship with the Census my
entire career because I recognize.
Speaker 2 (22:08):
Love love like I mean, you've been critical of it, though.
Speaker 3 (22:11):
Right, because I love the Census Bureau.
Speaker 2 (22:16):
Are you, like really that person who's like, oh my god,
I've always loved this. Are you that person?
Speaker 1 (22:21):
I am in the sense that I want it and
we need it to improve and to be the best
that it is. It's been, It's done some exceptionally great
stuff in the past. All statistics have strengths and limitations.
The limitations for desennial Census historically have been ones where
(22:45):
people of color are undercounted. That's an issue. I've been
critical before the Census, and now that I'm director, we're
looking at that and it's not like they don't look
at it every you know, day of our lives. We
have experts who are trying their best to think of
new creative ways to help with participation, et cetera. But
(23:08):
I recognize that the data that the census provides is
a vital part of our democracy. We can't improve communities, neighborhoods,
we can't identify problems unless we can measure properly the
state of the nation who we are as a people.
(23:29):
And it's in that context that I've always loved the
Census Bureau because I admire them doing the best that
can be done, even though it's not perfection.
Speaker 2 (23:39):
Because I mean, that's what I was going to say. So,
so is it that you've been up at night not
now just because you're the director of the Senses, but
that in the past because the undercounting of in particular
Latino Latina LATINX community and frankly, and I know this
(24:02):
is not a surprise to you, there's deep distrust now
with any government institution in the United States. I mean
those things that have kept you up at night. This
whole notion of like the deep, deep undercounting that comes
from one I suppose deep disorganization, but also deep distrust.
Speaker 1 (24:21):
I'm not prepared to say it keeps me up at night,
as much as it's a core issue that we need
to address for the future, we need to recognize its existence.
There are mistrust issues that have been historical as well
as more recent, and I would never have taken this
(24:41):
job unless I thought I could help in that regard.
So one of the primary agenda items for me, or
contributions that I want to make as Director of the
Census Bureau is to put a human face on the
Census Bureau. We're not a bunch of mathematicians in our
little offices thinking big thoughts. We're actually human beings. We
(25:05):
all have cultures, we all have issues, we all are
human in nature. And I'm bringing that because I think
I can. I'm going to outreach to communities, to neighborhoods,
to stakeholders, to congress, to local governments, to tribal communities.
I want to get out there and I want to
find out what those issues are with my staff. So
(25:28):
the Census spiritA will be a part of all of
that and establish a continuous relationship with people and with
communities rather than simply two years before a Census, saying Okay,
it's time for us to have partnerships. We recognize that
we need to have this continuously, and I'm going to
be upfront and center trying to work with everyone to
(25:51):
establish a true two way relationship, not just to help
us get participation, but also here is information that's useful
for your specific community. Here are some tools you can
use to identify community needs, to solve problems, to create
more economic development. That's the type of two way relationship
that I really want to.
Speaker 2 (26:12):
Get, Director Santos. The last administration and all of the
controversy leading up to the twenty twenty senses has I mean,
it's so polarized, and it forced people more into a
place of darkness, I suppose in regards to the senses.
(26:34):
So I mean you're trying to kind of I don't
want to say catch up, because you're actually trying to
do something very futuristic. But you've got a lot of
lead from the last administration and last decades. I mean
that lead is how do you deal with that lead
that is weighing you down, which is part historical and
you know, systemic.
Speaker 1 (26:55):
I do not view this as an issue of oh
my god, look what's happened in the past. I view
it as where do we need to get into the
future and how do we need to address these types
of issues.
Speaker 3 (27:07):
So I'm I'm.
Speaker 1 (27:08):
Looking forward because one of the greatest attributes and strengths
of the Census Bureau is that it is a non
partisan federal statistical agency. So I'll say it again, it's
a non partisan federal statistical agency, which is the only
reason that I was willing to join. Because the notion
(27:32):
of scientific integrity objectivity is something and transparency not many
organizations want to reveal, like the good and the bad
and the ugly about everything we do. We put that
up front because that's part of our job that the
American people deserve to hear and to see the strengths
and limitations of all of our data products. And it's
(27:55):
because of that scientific integrity and our non partisan nature
that I think we have a really good starting point
to take wherever we are right now and move forward
and create really great ties to communities and great things.
And That's what I'm going to be doing, and I
know that that's what the rest of the Census Spirit
is going to be doing as well.
Speaker 2 (28:15):
Your excitement about being at the Census is clear, like
we can feel it. We absolutely can feel it. I
can see it. So I want to zoom out for
a bit because when I think about the senses, I
think the other word that comes to mind is white
supremacy and systemic racism, and how that is a part
of the institution. We have to acknowledge how people in
(28:37):
this country were first counted, right, Enslaved black people were
basically counted only as three fifths of a human being,
and areas with large enslaved populations benefited from this in
terms of federal funding and political power and representation. So
again your excitement to be at the census, But the
question I'm going to ask you is, well, should the
(28:59):
sense be dismantled? Should it be reassembled? How do we
deal with the fact that, you know, close to four
out of the five senior executives at the bureau identify
as white according to an NPR study from last year.
So you're dealing with your big dreams and a powerful institution,
but one that has, in this case issues of white supremacy.
Speaker 1 (29:23):
Well, I think that you know, pundits and others can
characterize the Census Bureau as they might. I do know
that because of things like the pandemic, we are at
a wonderful inflection point where we understand the value of diversity,
equity and inclusion, and everyone I've spoken to wants to
(29:47):
make progress in this regard, including myself. I think that
it's it would be naive to think that any government
or any society does not have issues with them with
regard to historical you know, racism and things of that sort.
But in terms of where we go from now, by
(30:08):
leveraging this diversity, equity and inclusion principles, we are recognizing
the value not only for creating a more diverse workforce
within the Census Bureau, but also questioning every single thing
we do with regard to what we measure, how we
measure it, how relevant it is, and not only that
(30:31):
when we produce it, how valuable it is, based on
community engagement and getting folks reaction to results and things
of that sort. So I'm very much you know, I
am absolutely not a Pollyanna. I absolutely know that issues
exist and they are cultural and they are baked into society.
(30:53):
But that doesn't mean we cannot don't have an obligation
to try. That's what I'm doing that's what we all
have to do, and we have to do it together
and we need each other's support.
Speaker 2 (31:04):
Director Santos, forgive me that I should know the answer
to this question, but I don't. Has the Census apologized
for the fact that the data from the census was
used to enter, ie imprison American citizens of Japanese descent,
and that they were targeted because of the use of
the census data. Has there been a formal apology that
(31:26):
I just didn't know about.
Speaker 1 (31:28):
Yeah, thank you for asking. That's a really really important question.
Can crew it actually years back apologized formally to representatives
of the Japanese community.
Speaker 2 (31:40):
So how do we because you know this as well
in our community, especially after the last administration, the previous
administration in particular Latinos and Latinas and building this trust
and immigrants and refugees, undocumented people, how do you rebuild
the trust? And I know, oh, I get the whole
Like we are the Census, we are you, But I
(32:03):
mean you also deal with hard facts. You also want
to deal with the humanizing of it. How do you
create trust in an institution that is so large and
that has this past history And I know you want
to look at the future. So in the future, how
do you want to create.
Speaker 1 (32:19):
Sure and we are already taking steps in that direction.
It is critical that we engage with the public with
we engage in local communities. We engage with people of
color and communities of color in their various manifestations, whether
it's through with Non Leyo or a maldef or the
(32:40):
Asian American associations that look out for those interests. It's
really important to have those types of conversations that are continuous,
and it's through having those conversations and demonstrating that their
concerns matter by incorporating those into actions we take in
(33:05):
the future. Through that loop and through us demonstrating with
hard data that we can we can help their communities
and all communities, I think we will build build trust.
Speaker 2 (33:18):
And what are we going to do or what are
you going to do with the fact that there's an
acknowledgment of a pretty severe undercount that happened, particularly in
black Latino Latino LATINX communities. What's your plan? You again,
if you're like, well, we can't deal with what happened
in the past, that's already happened, But then what is
the plan? Like a very specific plan.
Speaker 1 (33:40):
Yes, and we're in the midst of forming plans for
the twenty thirty census. But please be aware that the
plans for increasing participation and representation in the data collections
that we do are spread to all of the one
hundred and thirty or so surveys that we do every year,
(34:01):
as well as our economic censuses that are coming up.
And Latinos and African Americans have local businesses and such,
so we're looking to to do that.
Speaker 2 (34:13):
So again, I love the fact that I have these
very specific reactions about the census when every year, every decade,
you know, when I have to deal with this, but
the term Hispanic, the term Latino, Latina, LATINX, you know,
Afro Latini, that indigenous cells. I mean, I every time
(34:34):
I look at the census, I'm like, but I'm not here.
I don't feel I like, I don't the boxes, which box,
which checking of the box. I'm sure you felt this
way too, So what's your plan to kind of make
the senses like read the room, understand the United States
and it's actually living in Because it feels like it's
the census again of the white men from the nineteen
(34:57):
fifties that were kind of creating the paradigms, and the
paradig times have all shifted.
Speaker 1 (35:01):
That is a wonderful starting point for this notion that
society has tangibly changed over the last twenty thirty forty years,
where people are understanding and embracing different cultures and ancestries,
and an organization like the Census Bureau and more broadly,
(35:22):
the federal statistical system, because there's lots of other groups
in the federal government that collect data, need to understand
and be contemporary with the way that people identify themselves
and our notions of who we are, especially with multi
race couples and children and multi ethnic couples and children.
(35:42):
People are just becoming more aware of who they are,
and when they do that, they think of themselves differently,
and so using standards like the ones we currently have
that we're developed in nineteen ninety seven aren't necessarily the
best ones to capture the rich diversity of our.
Speaker 3 (36:01):
Wonderful population right now.
Speaker 1 (36:04):
We are at the Census Bureau don't have the authority
to simply change race ethnicity questions. It needs to go
through a process by the federal government to update the standards,
and we are actively working with the Office of Management
and Budget, which is part of the White House. They're
(36:24):
the group that creates and revises standards, and our understanding
is that that process with regard to ethnicity as well
as with regard to sojiate questions, sexual orientation, and gender identity, well,
those discussions will be commencing soon, and we have existing
research that we've already done as well as ideas on
(36:47):
how to go forward to better capture that rich diversity
and the disaggregation of Latinos, disaggregation of whites, disaggregation African Americans, Asians,
tribal communities, and so forth.
Speaker 2 (37:00):
I remember when I started hearing that term disaggregation, So
just so people get it, can you just define what
disaggregation means? Because I think while you're the head of
the census, people will be hearing that murd a lot more.
Speaker 3 (37:13):
Yeah, forgive me.
Speaker 1 (37:14):
I like to pride myself as being someone who can
speak more.
Speaker 3 (37:20):
To the public.
Speaker 1 (37:22):
But then I throw out, I bust out the term
disaggregation and oh, it's obviously it's a it's an industry term.
Disaggregation really is very basic. Latinos are not a monolithic population.
We're luck together as a group of different groups of
(37:42):
a set of peoples. They're Kubanos, you know, folks from
Dominican Mexicans, even you know, Central and South America and
so forth in Puerto Ricans. And it's important to be
able to understand those differences because different communities can have
different mixes of a specific type of Latino. Not to mention,
(38:05):
you bring in immigrant status as well, and that will
trigger notions of what types of community needs there are.
How to better address issues like, you know, how do
we convince folks to take vaccines, how do we get
folks to register to vote? How do we get folks
to understand the value of fruits and vegetables for a
(38:28):
more nutritious meal, even though they may not have a
libapal wage, you know, to buy those types of products.
So we really need to understand the rich diversity, and
that's what de segregation means.
Speaker 2 (38:41):
I think part of what you're trying to do is,
as you say, you want you and your whole staff
to bring their entire selves into the Census Bureau because
that ultimately will lead to a better Census bureau. You
have actually and you talk a lot about equity and inclusion,
and you've actually taken some steps. So what are you
(39:03):
doing in terms of your own staff and that diversity
representation and inclusion.
Speaker 1 (39:09):
Well, on the staff that I work with directly, there
is actually an incredibly rich diversity of Latinos, of African Americans,
of white individuals.
Speaker 3 (39:21):
From different backgrounds.
Speaker 1 (39:23):
We have efforts to transform and modernize the Census Bureau
because we absolutely need it in order to survive in
the future. And part of that is making sure that
we do things like review all of our policies and
practices for two things. One is to make sure they
(39:46):
are equitable, and my guess is that most, if not all,
will end up being equitable. We've got to do our
due diligence. And the second is the practice. It's policies
and practice. You can have an equitable policy, if it's
not implemented in the right way, you may as well
not have the policy.
Speaker 3 (40:05):
You know.
Speaker 1 (40:06):
Altogether, we're also looking in a very honed way at
assembling data from different sources in ways that can facilitate
a better understanding of community from an equity lens.
Speaker 2 (40:21):
All right, Well, you've been able to tell us a
lot about you know, kind of your work right now,
but we do know that you'll there will be a
finite period of time in which you serve as the
director of the Senses. And I can tell, with all
due respect that you're a little bit of a nerd
am I right?
Speaker 3 (40:39):
Yes, I confess.
Speaker 2 (40:42):
So what do you want the legacy? Your legacy? You're
the first Latino to lead the Senses, You're the first
man with a ponytail that we know of in the
modern ages. So what do you want your legacy to be?
Speaker 1 (40:56):
It's interesting people keep asking me that, and I keep
telling them I am not that type of leader. I
don't I don't want to leave the Census Bureau, And
folks say, well, Rob did X, Rob did Y, and
Rob did C. I would much rather because of who
I am and my belief in how I lead to
(41:17):
enable all kinds of staff to do great things and
then to help them find the resources to be innovative,
to tangibly demonstrate what it means to live in an
equitable work environment. So my legacy, if you look at
it from the in that sense, isn't going to be
an accomplishment as much as a driver to allow people
(41:43):
to become excellent. In the context of diversity, equity, and inclusion,
and that's what my legacy. I want my legacy to be.
I helped people do their job better well.
Speaker 2 (41:56):
Director Robert Roberto Santos, thank you so much for joining
me on Latino USA.
Speaker 1 (42:03):
It was an absolute honor, Maria, and thank you very
much for this opportunity to let folks know who I am.
Speaker 2 (42:14):
Since my conversation with Director Santos, the White House Office
of Management and Budget announced that it has started a
formal review in order to revise the race and Ethnicity classifications.
It uses these to collect data across federal agencies to
quote better reflect the diversity of the American people end quote.
(42:37):
These classifications have not been revised since nineteen ninety seven.
(42:57):
This episode was produced by Renaldo Leanos Junior. It was
mixed by Stephanie Lebou and Julia Caruso. The Latino USA
team includes Victori Estrada, Andrea Lopez Brusavo, Dori mar Marquez,
Marta Martinez, Mike Sargent, Nor Saudi, and Nancy Drujuigo. Benny
les Amidez is our co executive producer. Our marketing manager
(43:19):
is Luis Duna. Our theme music was composed by Saniel
Roubinos I'm your host and executive producer Maria Rojosa join
us again on our next episode. In the meantime, I'll
see you on social media by te Ba Yas.
Speaker 3 (43:37):
Latino USA is supported by the Chan Zuckerberg Initiative, the
Tao Foundation, and Michelle Mercer and Bruce Golden.
Speaker 2 (43:50):
And by the way, I hear you're a big griller
and you love to barbecue, and I'm like, Okay, I
want to be invited to that barbecue. Director Santos, Okay,
that's the barbecue. I want to be invited to. Yours,
your invitation the hand, San Antonio Barbecue. But anyway,
I absolutely know that issues exist, and they are cultural
and they are baked into society, but that doesn't mean
we don't have an obligation to try. That's what I'm doing,
That's what we all have to do, and we have
to do it together.
Speaker 2 (00:19):
From Fudro Media and BrX, It's Latino USA. I'm Marieno
Rosa today a conversation with Robert Santos, the first Latino
to lead the US Census Bureau. Dear listener, you might
remember that in twenty nineteen, the Supreme Court blocked the
(00:41):
Trump administration's push to include a question about citizenship status
in the twenty twenty census. Well, in early May of
twenty twenty four, House Republicans passed a bill that is
reminiscent of those very same efforts. The Quote Equal Representation
(01:02):
Act is a measure that seeks to include a citizenship
question on the next census, scheduled for twenty thirty, and
to exclude people who are not citizens from the census count.
That bill now sits with the majority Democrat Senate, and so,
dear listener, we felt that it was important to share
(01:23):
with you again a conversation that we had with Robert Santos,
who is the director of the US Census Bureau. Santos
told us why being counted in the Census is important
and what exactly he was doing to rebuild trust among communities.
Here's my conversation with Robert Santos from twenty twenty two.
(01:46):
President Joe Biden announced last April that his intended nominee
to lead the US Census would be Robert Santos. Then
just a few weeks later, Santos went before the Senate
Homeland Security Committee for his confirmation hearing.
Speaker 1 (02:00):
It's an honor and I'm humbled to appear before you
today as the nominee for the director of the Census Bureau.
I'd like to thank the President and Secretary Rimando for
the trust they have placed me with this nomination.
Speaker 2 (02:15):
Santos is super proud about being born and raised in
the barrios of San Antonio, Texas. He has served as
President of the American Statistical Association, vice President and chief
methodologist at the Urban Institute, along with other big roles
throughout his career. Santos has more than forty years of
(02:37):
experience in survey research, and he specializes in quantitative and
qualitative research design.
Speaker 1 (02:44):
I wouldn't be here today without the endurance support of
my family. At age eighteen, I married my wife, Adela,
and we've now been married forty eight years. She's my
most important source of support, counsel, and love. Are two children,
Emilio and Cladissa, always support me and are constant sources
(03:04):
of comfort and pride.
Speaker 2 (03:06):
During his confirmation hearing, Santos was asked about redistricting along
with potential big challenges for the upcoming twenty thirty Census.
Santos was confirmed in November of twenty twenty one. A
few months later and January of this year, he was
sworn in as the twenty sixth Director of the US Census,
and he is the first Latino to hold that position.
Speaker 1 (03:30):
Hi Robert Santos I, Robert Sambo will support in defan
will support in the fan.
Speaker 2 (03:37):
Santos is no stranger to the US Census. Before his
nomination and confirmation, he warned in October of twenty twenty
that former President Trump's interference with the census count could
result in one of the most flawed census counts in history.
Census counts are important because they helped determine the number
(03:59):
of seats each state has in the US House of Representatives.
It's also used to help allocate and distribute billions of
federal dollars across local communities throughout the entire country. Trump
wanted a question on the past census that asked for
people's US citizenship status. Well, you need it for many reasons.
Speaker 1 (04:20):
Number one, you needed new words with Congress, you needed
for Congress spati picking.
Speaker 2 (04:24):
You needed for appropriations. Citizenship has been on that thing
most of the time for many many years. A citizenship
question had not been on the census for several decades,
and of course citizenship status is not used for redistricting.
And after several lawsuits, the Supreme Court ultimately blocked the
(04:47):
citizenship question from being on the twenty twenty census, but
the damage had already been done and there was an
even further gap in trust with communities across the United States.
The weaponization of the US Census isn't something new. We've
seen it with the founding of this country, when enslaved
(05:11):
Africans were counted as three fifths of a person, and
later when Japanese Americans were in prison and tracked down
by using the census. So on today's episode, I have
a conversation with director Robert Santos about his new role,
his love for his hometown of San Antonio, and the
(05:32):
complicated history of the US Census. Director Robert Santos, Hello,
and thank you so much for being with me here
today on Latino USA.
Speaker 1 (05:45):
I was ready to climb a ladder and do the
interview upside down if I could have the opportunity to
be a part of this experience with you, because I've
always valued everything that you've done on your program.
Speaker 2 (05:58):
Oh my gosh, well, thank you. I don't I am
actually I'm having a moment. Did the director of the
US Census just say to me that he values the
work that I've been doing and knows my work? I
really am having a moment.
Speaker 1 (06:12):
Every week we listen to your program and the job
you're doing to help the United States understand the value
of our rich diversity of Latinos, I think is amazing.
Speaker 2 (06:24):
Thank you, Director Santos for being for being a supporter
of our work and knowing our work. It really means
a lot. And I think I'm going to start there
because if I think about my experience as a Latina
in the media over the last thirty years, I think
that people always saw me kind of like, you know, like, oh,
here she goes again bringing up Latinos and Latinas, and
(06:44):
I think, I mean, I'm not a big mathematician or
a statistician like you, but I can read a demographic
chart and I could see that the Latino population was
just increasing. And so for a lot of my career,
people have kind of been like, oh God, here she
comes talking about Latinos again. I always found it very
(07:06):
interesting that people felt like it was a bother or
like a threat or a problem instead of just like, no,
but we're just kind of looking at that, And I'm
wondering if you're kind of having that same sensation in
your life right now.
Speaker 1 (07:18):
Yeah, thank you for offering that perspective, because actually I've
been having that type of interaction my entire career. I've
had episode after episode where I was the sole Latino
in a room of research decision makers who maybe hadn't
realized that when they come to the table and they
(07:41):
frame research questions or they perceive problems that they want
to help society solve, they do it with their cultural lens.
I've had many instances where I basically say, excuse me
if you do that, you actually will be doing harm
and not good. Even though the statistical design and the
(08:04):
research design was pristine. However, if you frame the question
the wrong way, or you capture information in a way
that doesn't really reveal what's going on, or interpret it
by talking to people in the community to help get
it better understanding, you can end up actually doing more
(08:24):
harm than good.
Speaker 2 (08:26):
And the other thing I need to know, Director Santos,
I'm sorry, I just need to know. I know you
used to have a ponytail. Do you still it's growing? Holy.
Speaker 1 (08:38):
I was asked to be considered for the nomination and
I decided to do it. I did it out of
you know, Goda Son. I wanted to help my country,
and I believed I could offer something as a Latino
from my rich perspective, cultural perspective, and research perspective. But
the one thing that I decided is that I have
(09:00):
to be myself, and myself is Santhos with the ponytail.
And so I'm going to be myself and try to
do the best I can to help the Census Bureau
to help the American people. And if it works, great,
and if it doesn't, I tried.
Speaker 2 (09:18):
I think it's really cool. I just want to say,
because one you're rocking it, it works, and two I
just think you're saying something about just having to be yourself. Right.
So recently I was in San Antonio. That's the city
of where you were born and raised. I was at
Trinity University giving a lecture, and you know, I love
San Antonio. It's one of my favorite cities because what
(09:40):
I've been going to it ever since a little girl,
because I was always driving through Texas to get from
Chicago to Mexico. It's a majority Latino city in the
United States, in the state of Texas. So yeah, not
as a kid from San Antonio, but as somebody who
understands the power of the work of the census, demography
and the picture of the future of the United States.
(10:03):
I mean, is San Antonio in fact the future of
what the United States looks like? And what does that
mean to you?
Speaker 1 (10:10):
Well, there are many really interesting things about San Antonio.
The fact that it has always had a very prominent
place for Mexican Americans in particular, but Latinos more generally
as being part of the city. Yet when I was
growing up, it was pretty effectively segregated and even in
(10:33):
some of the Latino communities. You know, I lived on
the side of the Woodland Lake that you know, wasn't
considered the best part, and so if I went into
the other side where there were folks were better off,
I might be looked upon a little differently. But it's
interesting that we've embraced the culture of the Mexican American
(10:55):
community in San Antonio.
Speaker 2 (10:57):
I mean, I guess the reason why one of the
reasons why I keep on asking about San Antonio as
a city of the future and and what it looks like.
And you're right. I mean, you get out of the
airport in San Antonio because I was just there and
there were these like huge artist representations of Lata's, the
Chipotle Chiles, Chipotle Salsa ervees, and I was like, only
(11:21):
in San Antonio, will you see this? Like at the
airport it's and and and all of this is like
we're talking about San Antonio, and you know, as it
relates to a kind of city of the future with
a kind of sense of joy and hope and laughter.
But you know this, Director Santos, that actually the way
the narrative goes right now in the United States today
(11:43):
is that Latinos and Latinas post some kind of a
threat that we're majority not from the United States, that
we're coming here, that we're new. So put those two
things together for me, h.
Speaker 1 (11:57):
Well, it's not unusual for societies to have segments of
the population that view individuals of different backgrounds to be threats,
when in fact it's very much of an opportunity. We
could not survive without immigrants coming in and helping our
economy in ways that otherwise the citizen population would not
(12:20):
be able to contribute. So I very much value the diversity,
and I think that's one of our strongest points as
a nation, and that's why I take so much pride
in being able to advance the measurement and the counting
and the learning about the rich diversity of our population
and how it's getting more diverse. It's inevitable, as you said,
(12:43):
it's coming, and we need to find better ways to
leverage and embrace that because it's going to improve society.
But I bring a different perspective. I think to research
and the Census Bureau and sort of research more generally
social science research, and I believe that you have to
(13:03):
bring your whole self. So I believe in diversity, equity, inclusion,
and I think in order to be a better scientist,
a better mathematician, a better statistician, you need to bring
your culture to the table when you talk about and
think about research, about interpreting results, about how you analyze it,
(13:24):
even how you frame what it is that you're going
to look at, because that way you can actually learn
more and gain more relevant insights into particular problems, whether
it's hunger or housing, or the pandemic and vaccination statuses
or whatever.
Speaker 2 (13:42):
Okay, so, Director Santos, I actually want to take you
back to those days when you were growing up as
a kid in San Antonio. You were on the west
side of the city. You said it was a very
segregated city, and so you growing up what was life
like back then as a were you like, yeah, we're
definitely the majority. We got this, We're going places. Or
(14:06):
did you feel like, wow, this country's in the middle
of a civil rights era. Latinos and Latinas were not
necessarily visible.
Speaker 1 (14:15):
So what was it To be honest, I was a
kid in the sixties, I was in elementary school and
middle school, and I graduated in seventy two, and son't
I wasn't able until I was maybe in grad school
at Michigan to really connect the dots fully, to realize
the value and importance of being a Latino. And that's
(14:38):
where between my college and graduate school years where I
really embraced and understood the magnitude of the societal issues.
Speaker 3 (14:49):
That we were dealing with.
Speaker 1 (14:51):
But back when I was a kid, I was basically surviving.
I was fortunate enough to go to parochial school for
twelve years that instilled some great values in me that
I take with me and I use every day of
my forty year career as well as.
Speaker 3 (15:10):
Now my continuing career.
Speaker 1 (15:12):
The Census Bureaum and those values of trying to help people,
those values of being inclusive and treating people fairly and
trying to help society, those are really important and they
drive me and they've drive everything that I've done, you know,
treating people with respect, regardless of race, color, creed, religion,
(15:32):
or whatever.
Speaker 2 (15:33):
So your mom and dad worked at the air Force base, right.
Speaker 1 (15:37):
Yes, there were some very fortunate to have civil service
positions at Kelly Air Force Base while it was open.
Speaker 2 (15:46):
So this notion of I see you as my equal,
a child of the civil rights era. Where was that
coming from? Was that your mom and dad bringing it home?
And talk to me a little bit about having a
mom and dad in the air force, because I mean,
my dad was a scientist, medical doctor, researcher. But we
didn't talk that stuff over dinner. But like your dad
(16:08):
was asking you math questions, So take me a little
bit back.
Speaker 1 (16:13):
Yeah, it's interesting. We had a really tightly knit family
and everything circulated around familiar and because everything revolved around family,
our focus was we didn't necessarily at the dinner table
talk about the inequities of society as much as talked
(16:34):
about familia and how we help each other and how
we need to strive to get better education and get
good jobs.
Speaker 3 (16:43):
I mean, that was what it was all about.
Speaker 1 (16:45):
And you know, how could anyone blame familias for talking
about that in San Antonio who were Mexican American and
whose grandparents had fled because of the revolution, the violence
in northern Mexico that was going on to survive and
they started in new life and with almost nothing, and
my grandparents starting with jobs as gardeners or as cleaning people.
Speaker 3 (17:10):
We then grew and.
Speaker 1 (17:12):
Generation after generation improved and that pursuit of the American dream.
That's really what was the focus of discussion. And me
as a little kid with my brother who's no longer
with us, our focus was on trying to have as
good of a time as we could, especially with my
parents both being off to work in us being latchkey kids,
(17:34):
so we got into all kinds of mischief.
Speaker 2 (17:37):
Okay, well, I need to know what mischief looks like
in West San Antonio. Then give me a couple of examples.
What were you guys doing.
Speaker 1 (17:45):
Well, it was mischief in the sense of, you know,
we'd have you know, mudball fights in San Antonio where
the back of the house was yeah, mudball. We just
you know, throw water in the dirt, make mudballs and
come at it and the back of the house would
be covered with mudballs that stuck to the side of
the house. Or we'd grab our bicycles and we were
(18:09):
like what eight, nine, ten years old now, I'd say ten,
eleven or twelve, and then head off from Woodlawn Lake
area to pass downtown to Hemisphere where it was being built,
so we could watch the tower going up wow, or
go out to the airport and watch the jets come
in and that's really long distances for kids in the
(18:30):
middle of the summer with no water.
Speaker 3 (18:32):
We just stop at.
Speaker 1 (18:33):
Gas stations, but we would do crazy, crazy stuff like that.
Speaker 2 (18:40):
It's kind of incredible that kids get into all that
mischief and survive, right, It's kind of amazing.
Speaker 1 (18:45):
What's really important, though, is if you combine that sense
of adventure with the values that were instilled during the
schooling that I had. It's those two things that have
propelled me to take chances and risks where maybe other
folks would not have done it. So pretty much in
(19:07):
every job I've ever taken, it's been a step up,
and I've said, oh my god, can I Am I
really going to be able to do this? And then
I'd end up saying, well, look, just like I told
you earlier, I'm going to try my best. I'm going
to be myself and if I can contribute, great, and
if I can't, I'll be able to look myself in
the mirror and say I tried my best.
Speaker 2 (19:35):
Coming up on let you know, USA Director Santos on
rebuilding trust and facing the systemic problems at the Census,
Stay with us, Yes, Hey, we're back. We're going to
(20:11):
continue now with my conversation with Director of the US
Census Bureau Robert Santos. The interesting thing, Director Santos, is
that I have a lot of feelings about the Censes.
With the Censes, it's actually something that has had an
(20:33):
impact in my life in very interesting ways. And I
kind of be honest with you, and I'm sure you're
not going to be surprised when I'm like, it's kind
of a love hate relationship with the Senses. I think
I remember as a little girl that Hispanic was a
term that was created for the Census by a Republican administration,
and my family did not like the Republicans. So I
(20:54):
was like, I'm not Hispanic, I'm not a term that
was created. So the Census has this kind of again
this impact. In fact, in twenty ten, when I form
Futuro Media, my own company, one of the things that
made me believe that I could do it was data
from the Censes. Right. The data was that the Latino
population growth from twenty to twenty ten had grown at
(21:17):
forty three percent. So the Census is an organization that
we I think you too have had a love hate
relationship with am I right? How do you see how
the Census has impacted your personal life. Were you that
guy who was like thinking about the censes like decades.
Speaker 1 (21:38):
Ago, actually decades ago? I was because I actually did
projects for the Census as a as a researcher. I
served for six years on the advisory committee and said
the same thing day one as I did six years
later as I walked out the door in terms of advice.
But I actually have not had a love hate relationship.
(22:00):
I've had a love love relationship with the Census my
entire career because I recognize.
Speaker 2 (22:08):
Love love like I mean, you've been critical of it, though.
Speaker 3 (22:11):
Right, because I love the Census Bureau.
Speaker 2 (22:16):
Are you, like really that person who's like, oh my god,
I've always loved this. Are you that person?
Speaker 1 (22:21):
I am in the sense that I want it and
we need it to improve and to be the best
that it is. It's been, It's done some exceptionally great
stuff in the past. All statistics have strengths and limitations.
The limitations for desennial Census historically have been ones where
(22:45):
people of color are undercounted. That's an issue. I've been
critical before the Census, and now that I'm director, we're
looking at that and it's not like they don't look
at it every you know, day of our lives. We
have experts who are trying their best to think of
new creative ways to help with participation, et cetera. But
(23:08):
I recognize that the data that the census provides is
a vital part of our democracy. We can't improve communities, neighborhoods,
we can't identify problems unless we can measure properly the
state of the nation who we are as a people.
(23:29):
And it's in that context that I've always loved the
Census Bureau because I admire them doing the best that
can be done, even though it's not perfection.
Speaker 2 (23:39):
Because I mean, that's what I was going to say. So,
so is it that you've been up at night not
now just because you're the director of the Senses, but
that in the past because the undercounting of in particular
Latino Latina LATINX community and frankly, and I know this
(24:02):
is not a surprise to you, there's deep distrust now
with any government institution in the United States. I mean
those things that have kept you up at night. This
whole notion of like the deep, deep undercounting that comes
from one I suppose deep disorganization, but also deep distrust.
Speaker 1 (24:21):
I'm not prepared to say it keeps me up at night,
as much as it's a core issue that we need
to address for the future, we need to recognize its existence.
There are mistrust issues that have been historical as well
as more recent, and I would never have taken this
(24:41):
job unless I thought I could help in that regard.
So one of the primary agenda items for me, or
contributions that I want to make as Director of the
Census Bureau is to put a human face on the
Census Bureau. We're not a bunch of mathematicians in our
little offices thinking big thoughts. We're actually human beings. We
(25:05):
all have cultures, we all have issues, we all are
human in nature. And I'm bringing that because I think
I can. I'm going to outreach to communities, to neighborhoods,
to stakeholders, to congress, to local governments, to tribal communities.
I want to get out there and I want to
find out what those issues are with my staff. So
(25:28):
the Census spiritA will be a part of all of
that and establish a continuous relationship with people and with
communities rather than simply two years before a Census, saying Okay,
it's time for us to have partnerships. We recognize that
we need to have this continuously, and I'm going to
be upfront and center trying to work with everyone to
(25:51):
establish a true two way relationship, not just to help
us get participation, but also here is information that's useful
for your specific community. Here are some tools you can
use to identify community needs, to solve problems, to create
more economic development. That's the type of two way relationship
that I really want to.
Speaker 2 (26:12):
Get, Director Santos. The last administration and all of the
controversy leading up to the twenty twenty senses has I mean,
it's so polarized, and it forced people more into a
place of darkness, I suppose in regards to the senses.
(26:34):
So I mean you're trying to kind of I don't
want to say catch up, because you're actually trying to
do something very futuristic. But you've got a lot of
lead from the last administration and last decades. I mean
that lead is how do you deal with that lead
that is weighing you down, which is part historical and
you know, systemic.
Speaker 1 (26:55):
I do not view this as an issue of oh
my god, look what's happened in the past. I view
it as where do we need to get into the
future and how do we need to address these types
of issues.
Speaker 3 (27:07):
So I'm I'm.
Speaker 1 (27:08):
Looking forward because one of the greatest attributes and strengths
of the Census Bureau is that it is a non
partisan federal statistical agency. So I'll say it again, it's
a non partisan federal statistical agency, which is the only
reason that I was willing to join. Because the notion
(27:32):
of scientific integrity objectivity is something and transparency not many
organizations want to reveal, like the good and the bad
and the ugly about everything we do. We put that
up front because that's part of our job that the
American people deserve to hear and to see the strengths
and limitations of all of our data products. And it's
(27:55):
because of that scientific integrity and our non partisan nature
that I think we have a really good starting point
to take wherever we are right now and move forward
and create really great ties to communities and great things.
And That's what I'm going to be doing, and I
know that that's what the rest of the Census Spirit
is going to be doing as well.
Speaker 2 (28:15):
Your excitement about being at the Census is clear, like
we can feel it. We absolutely can feel it. I
can see it. So I want to zoom out for
a bit because when I think about the senses, I
think the other word that comes to mind is white
supremacy and systemic racism, and how that is a part
of the institution. We have to acknowledge how people in
(28:37):
this country were first counted, right, Enslaved black people were
basically counted only as three fifths of a human being,
and areas with large enslaved populations benefited from this in
terms of federal funding and political power and representation. So
again your excitement to be at the census, But the
question I'm going to ask you is, well, should the
(28:59):
sense be dismantled? Should it be reassembled? How do we
deal with the fact that, you know, close to four
out of the five senior executives at the bureau identify
as white according to an NPR study from last year.
So you're dealing with your big dreams and a powerful institution,
but one that has, in this case issues of white supremacy.
Speaker 1 (29:23):
Well, I think that you know, pundits and others can
characterize the Census Bureau as they might. I do know
that because of things like the pandemic, we are at
a wonderful inflection point where we understand the value of diversity,
equity and inclusion, and everyone I've spoken to wants to
(29:47):
make progress in this regard, including myself. I think that
it's it would be naive to think that any government
or any society does not have issues with them with
regard to historical you know, racism and things of that sort.
But in terms of where we go from now, by
(30:08):
leveraging this diversity, equity and inclusion principles, we are recognizing
the value not only for creating a more diverse workforce
within the Census Bureau, but also questioning every single thing
we do with regard to what we measure, how we
measure it, how relevant it is, and not only that
(30:31):
when we produce it, how valuable it is, based on
community engagement and getting folks reaction to results and things
of that sort. So I'm very much you know, I
am absolutely not a Pollyanna. I absolutely know that issues
exist and they are cultural and they are baked into society.
(30:53):
But that doesn't mean we cannot don't have an obligation
to try. That's what I'm doing that's what we all
have to do, and we have to do it together
and we need each other's support.
Speaker 2 (31:04):
Director Santos, forgive me that I should know the answer
to this question, but I don't. Has the Census apologized
for the fact that the data from the census was
used to enter, ie imprison American citizens of Japanese descent,
and that they were targeted because of the use of
the census data. Has there been a formal apology that
(31:26):
I just didn't know about.
Speaker 1 (31:28):
Yeah, thank you for asking. That's a really really important question.
Can crew it actually years back apologized formally to representatives
of the Japanese community.
Speaker 2 (31:40):
So how do we because you know this as well
in our community, especially after the last administration, the previous
administration in particular Latinos and Latinas and building this trust
and immigrants and refugees, undocumented people, how do you rebuild
the trust? And I know, oh, I get the whole
Like we are the Census, we are you, But I
(32:03):
mean you also deal with hard facts. You also want
to deal with the humanizing of it. How do you
create trust in an institution that is so large and
that has this past history And I know you want
to look at the future. So in the future, how
do you want to create.
Speaker 1 (32:19):
Sure and we are already taking steps in that direction.
It is critical that we engage with the public with
we engage in local communities. We engage with people of
color and communities of color in their various manifestations, whether
it's through with Non Leyo or a maldef or the
(32:40):
Asian American associations that look out for those interests. It's
really important to have those types of conversations that are continuous,
and it's through having those conversations and demonstrating that their
concerns matter by incorporating those into actions we take in
(33:05):
the future. Through that loop and through us demonstrating with
hard data that we can we can help their communities
and all communities, I think we will build build trust.
Speaker 2 (33:18):
And what are we going to do or what are
you going to do with the fact that there's an
acknowledgment of a pretty severe undercount that happened, particularly in
black Latino Latino LATINX communities. What's your plan? You again,
if you're like, well, we can't deal with what happened
in the past, that's already happened, But then what is
the plan? Like a very specific plan.
Speaker 1 (33:40):
Yes, and we're in the midst of forming plans for
the twenty thirty census. But please be aware that the
plans for increasing participation and representation in the data collections
that we do are spread to all of the one
hundred and thirty or so surveys that we do every year,
(34:01):
as well as our economic censuses that are coming up.
And Latinos and African Americans have local businesses and such,
so we're looking to to do that.
Speaker 2 (34:13):
So again, I love the fact that I have these
very specific reactions about the census when every year, every decade,
you know, when I have to deal with this, but
the term Hispanic, the term Latino, Latina, LATINX, you know,
Afro Latini, that indigenous cells. I mean, I every time
(34:34):
I look at the census, I'm like, but I'm not here.
I don't feel I like, I don't the boxes, which box,
which checking of the box. I'm sure you felt this
way too, So what's your plan to kind of make
the senses like read the room, understand the United States
and it's actually living in Because it feels like it's
the census again of the white men from the nineteen
(34:57):
fifties that were kind of creating the paradigms, and the
paradig times have all shifted.
Speaker 1 (35:01):
That is a wonderful starting point for this notion that
society has tangibly changed over the last twenty thirty forty years,
where people are understanding and embracing different cultures and ancestries,
and an organization like the Census Bureau and more broadly,
(35:22):
the federal statistical system, because there's lots of other groups
in the federal government that collect data, need to understand
and be contemporary with the way that people identify themselves
and our notions of who we are, especially with multi
race couples and children and multi ethnic couples and children.
(35:42):
People are just becoming more aware of who they are,
and when they do that, they think of themselves differently,
and so using standards like the ones we currently have
that we're developed in nineteen ninety seven aren't necessarily the
best ones to capture the rich diversity of our.
Speaker 3 (36:01):
Wonderful population right now.
Speaker 1 (36:04):
We are at the Census Bureau don't have the authority
to simply change race ethnicity questions. It needs to go
through a process by the federal government to update the standards,
and we are actively working with the Office of Management
and Budget, which is part of the White House. They're
(36:24):
the group that creates and revises standards, and our understanding
is that that process with regard to ethnicity as well
as with regard to sojiate questions, sexual orientation, and gender identity, well,
those discussions will be commencing soon, and we have existing
research that we've already done as well as ideas on
(36:47):
how to go forward to better capture that rich diversity
and the disaggregation of Latinos, disaggregation of whites, disaggregation African Americans, Asians,
tribal communities, and so forth.
Speaker 2 (37:00):
I remember when I started hearing that term disaggregation, So
just so people get it, can you just define what
disaggregation means? Because I think while you're the head of
the census, people will be hearing that murd a lot more.
Speaker 3 (37:13):
Yeah, forgive me.
Speaker 1 (37:14):
I like to pride myself as being someone who can
speak more.
Speaker 3 (37:20):
To the public.
Speaker 1 (37:22):
But then I throw out, I bust out the term
disaggregation and oh, it's obviously it's a it's an industry term.
Disaggregation really is very basic. Latinos are not a monolithic population.
We're luck together as a group of different groups of
(37:42):
a set of peoples. They're Kubanos, you know, folks from
Dominican Mexicans, even you know, Central and South America and
so forth in Puerto Ricans. And it's important to be
able to understand those differences because different communities can have
different mixes of a specific type of Latino. Not to mention,
(38:05):
you bring in immigrant status as well, and that will
trigger notions of what types of community needs there are.
How to better address issues like, you know, how do
we convince folks to take vaccines, how do we get
folks to register to vote? How do we get folks
to understand the value of fruits and vegetables for a
(38:28):
more nutritious meal, even though they may not have a
libapal wage, you know, to buy those types of products.
So we really need to understand the rich diversity, and
that's what de segregation means.
Speaker 2 (38:41):
I think part of what you're trying to do is,
as you say, you want you and your whole staff
to bring their entire selves into the Census Bureau because
that ultimately will lead to a better Census bureau. You
have actually and you talk a lot about equity and inclusion,
and you've actually taken some steps. So what are you
(39:03):
doing in terms of your own staff and that diversity
representation and inclusion.
Speaker 1 (39:09):
Well, on the staff that I work with directly, there
is actually an incredibly rich diversity of Latinos, of African Americans,
of white individuals.
Speaker 3 (39:21):
From different backgrounds.
Speaker 1 (39:23):
We have efforts to transform and modernize the Census Bureau
because we absolutely need it in order to survive in
the future. And part of that is making sure that
we do things like review all of our policies and
practices for two things. One is to make sure they
(39:46):
are equitable, and my guess is that most, if not all,
will end up being equitable. We've got to do our
due diligence. And the second is the practice. It's policies
and practice. You can have an equitable policy, if it's
not implemented in the right way, you may as well
not have the policy.
Speaker 3 (40:05):
You know.
Speaker 1 (40:06):
Altogether, we're also looking in a very honed way at
assembling data from different sources in ways that can facilitate
a better understanding of community from an equity lens.
Speaker 2 (40:21):
All right, Well, you've been able to tell us a
lot about you know, kind of your work right now,
but we do know that you'll there will be a
finite period of time in which you serve as the
director of the Senses. And I can tell, with all
due respect that you're a little bit of a nerd
am I right?
Speaker 3 (40:39):
Yes, I confess.
Speaker 2 (40:42):
So what do you want the legacy? Your legacy? You're
the first Latino to lead the Senses, You're the first
man with a ponytail that we know of in the
modern ages. So what do you want your legacy to be?
Speaker 1 (40:56):
It's interesting people keep asking me that, and I keep
telling them I am not that type of leader. I
don't I don't want to leave the Census Bureau, And
folks say, well, Rob did X, Rob did Y, and
Rob did C. I would much rather because of who
I am and my belief in how I lead to
(41:17):
enable all kinds of staff to do great things and
then to help them find the resources to be innovative,
to tangibly demonstrate what it means to live in an
equitable work environment. So my legacy, if you look at
it from the in that sense, isn't going to be
an accomplishment as much as a driver to allow people
(41:43):
to become excellent. In the context of diversity, equity, and inclusion,
and that's what my legacy. I want my legacy to be.
I helped people do their job better well.
Speaker 2 (41:56):
Director Robert Roberto Santos, thank you so much for joining
me on Latino USA.
Speaker 1 (42:03):
It was an absolute honor, Maria, and thank you very
much for this opportunity to let folks know who I am.
Speaker 2 (42:14):
Since my conversation with Director Santos, the White House Office
of Management and Budget announced that it has started a
formal review in order to revise the race and Ethnicity classifications.
It uses these to collect data across federal agencies to
quote better reflect the diversity of the American people end quote.
(42:37):
These classifications have not been revised since nineteen ninety seven.
(42:57):
This episode was produced by Renaldo Leanos Junior. It was
mixed by Stephanie Lebou and Julia Caruso. The Latino USA
team includes Victori Estrada, Andrea Lopez Brusavo, Dori mar Marquez,
Marta Martinez, Mike Sargent, Nor Saudi, and Nancy Drujuigo. Benny
les Amidez is our co executive producer. Our marketing manager
(43:19):
is Luis Duna. Our theme music was composed by Saniel
Roubinos I'm your host and executive producer Maria Rojosa join
us again on our next episode. In the meantime, I'll
see you on social media by te Ba Yas.
Speaker 3 (43:37):
Latino USA is supported by the Chan Zuckerberg Initiative, the
Tao Foundation, and Michelle Mercer and Bruce Golden.
Speaker 2 (43:50):
And by the way, I hear you're a big griller
and you love to barbecue, and I'm like, Okay, I
want to be invited to that barbecue. Director Santos, Okay,
that's the barbecue. I want to be invited to. Yours,
your invitation the hand, San Antonio Barbecue. But anyway,
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