Laughing And Learning with James Hannaham

Flame sits down with special guest, renown author, writer James Hannaham. They discuss his journey in the literary arts, education their collaborative audiobook "Didn't Nobody Give a Shi*t What Happened to Carlotta" and much more.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:28):
He shot, he shoot, he shot. Laugh. If you watch
Coffee Time the Baby, you know the name Flame, my
role also known as my role Flame. Come in with
last and come in with Don love Lunds. Baby, you

(00:50):
better catch it when you can't drop a knowledge from
Fatherhood of politics, shouting now comics just paying homics. What's up? Tip?
Yeah you know she raped shot Towns on speaking to
the grown a second. We're gonna last cut of the
kicking and at the end we leave, which is a
lift dispirite like you want to revisit. So your first
like a listen to Jill. Folks like you slip all
folks that we take this. Do what you do, do

(01:15):
what you do, do what I do. Hey, Hey, Hey,

(01:40):
this is comedian Flame Monroe and welcome to this week's
episode of Laugh and Learn. This is a special episode
because I'm just coming through the whole last week and
it's I'm going to talk about some other topics. I
have a very special guest this week. But I want
to do I do want to embark on um the
fact that of uh uh god, my man just went blank.

(02:03):
Uh Terry Nichols in Memphis, Tennessee. I applaud the black
female um police chief there in Memphis, Tennessee, for making
such swift and quick actions on arresting the culprits. The
murderers is what I'm going to call them. And now
the story is unfolding more and more that the story.
It was personal with one of the officers. So as

(02:24):
this story unfolds, we will talk about that later on
the next episode of Left Learned, But that's not what
this episode is about. Thank you guys for joining me
in Hello, this is flaiming Roy y'all remember y'all being
Yonkers New York made four through six Sinkle to my
O Weekend. Get your tickets at Yonker's Comedy Club website
and March thirty one two April. First, I would be
at Tommy Teeth in Pleasanton, California. And every Monday night,

(02:47):
each and every I am at the world famous Laugh
Factory on Sunset Boulevard for free voices. And we have
the absolute best energy and best show in Southern California.
And if you don't believe me, I got a witness
that's gonna come on in a minute and tell y'all
Hi host. Now I got a co host. His name

(03:08):
is Mr Memphis. Will we have a great banger. He's
a good guy. It's just a great energy. If you
come to have a great time, you will have a
great time. If you come so you won't leave sal
you'll leave a little sweeter and then you can just
be sold when you get back outside. Allowed so around me.
But other than that, if you want to hear my
voice all the time, I did last So last year

(03:29):
I had the experience of working with this young man
and it was my very first time of doing an
honorable book an audio And the name of the book
is didn't nobody to give a ship about what what
happened to Carolina? Get what happened to call? That's James
in the background. He always corrects red leather, yellow leather.
So and it was my first time actually doing an

(03:50):
audible book. And so he saw me on Tiffoty Hattish
as they written and he was like, I just knew
that you were Colada. We're gonna get into this. So
before we go any further, I want to introduce my friend,
a wonderful author. He is a creative writer. He's a
creative writing philosopher, a professor. Professor. You know my worries

(04:10):
is off right, Um, I could be a philosopher too
if you want. Just the wonderful man. And he was
patient with me and kind, and we have a book
out and I did audible, but he's the author, and
all the other voices that you hear in the audible
outside of Calatio Mercedes is the talented Mr James Hannahan. So,
without further ado, ladies and gentlemen, please welcome to the

(04:31):
show here at Laughlan my very special guest, Mr James Hannahan,
high Flame. Thank you so much for inviting me to
this um little party, this little private party. Um, it's
uh terrific to be here. It's terrific to see you
on stage for the first time last night, and there

(04:55):
was a lot of flame, which I was really happy.
I was like, is flame just gonna do like a
ten in that thing? And go? I was overjoy of it.
It was like your jam and you were hosting and
and also doing your stand up. It was just really
really fun. And I mean, I think almost anything that

(05:16):
comes out of your mouth it's hilarious. He let's know
that already, but oh don't, because when we were making
the book that first that you didn't think. So, so
let me tell you all tout because I told the
flame best is I don't laugh on my on my
coffee time, I say, oh my god. It was a
hard experience because it was new for me. But James,

(05:36):
you was so patient and you work with me. But
I'm gonna tell you all the truth. James was sad
and the hell out of me because y'all know we
was in like a fat back. They stuck together the time,
and he was like, bitch, if you don't get it right,
I'm going to I want to say it. But I

(05:57):
was so determined too, because I all the look on
James's face, and there was one time, James, you looked
at me and you were so frustrated, and I'm telling
you in my head, I was like, oh my god,
I don't know if I'm the right person for this.
But when I drove home after the first day, I
was like, I got to get better. And the next
morning I started off as ragging as I did the
first day, but a couple of hours in we just

(06:18):
got some kind of rhythm. I think it was when
you told me, James, like, let's go to the person
who's on stage now. The only thing that's hard about
that is that because you saw me last night. I'm
so used to moving around and my hand movements and
and you know you can't do that when you do audible.
But you that right there, whatever you said to me
on that, when you said that to me, it made
me go into a space of like, Okay, bitch, your

(06:40):
own stage, deliver right, because I mean, even though you
can't see the audience, they're they're they're out there, They're
just you just can't. You just don't know exactly how
they're going to react to every last thing. Um, But
I'm a cover audience, so you know, you have it
easy with them. You don't have it easy with me.
But I mean, you you keep saying this, but there

(07:02):
really wasn't anybody who was any better. It was like,
you know, they were it was gonna be you or
I was going to do the whole thing. And I
really didn't want to do the whole thing because I
kind of no I kind of could have done it.
I could have spoken in the words of Carlatta, but
what I really wanted was to do, like, you know,
a dialogue between myself and someone who is part of
the trans community. It was just really important to me,

(07:25):
and like My publisher was sort of a little pushing
back about that, UM, but I was like, I think
it's really important, um too for people to understand that
not only is this a book that I wrote, it's
a role that someone can play that can be you know,
helpful in terms of advocacy and entertainment and also you know,

(07:52):
just to like center the life of somebody who is
trans um in a context in which it doesn't happen
often enough. Let me ask you a question, James, So
where did Carlotta come from? Was there was this a
character you hear? It was just someone who you grew
up with. I mean, because it comes from somewhere. It's
it's hard to really say. I think, you know, I

(08:14):
spent a lot of time in the nineties like going
out to shows a gay bars and stuff, and at
the time there was much more of a like gray
area between who was trans and who was a drag queen,
and everybody was on stage and everybody, you know, was
being frank about all kinds of things, and I, you know,

(08:36):
I just I have a good ear for a language, um,
and so I picked up a lot of that kind
of thing, and it's it's sort of you know, and
I would kind of do it myself sometimes when the
when the the feeling struck, and I mean, I guess
it's just it was just kind of there. I mean,
Carlotta just kind of jumped out of my head at

(08:58):
a certain point. Um. Years ago, I wrote a story
that was kind of in a similar sort of voice.
It was about UM. I had seen I had seen
this episode. I think it was a Mari Povich and
there were these um trans girls, um who. It was
one of those episodes where they were trying to exploit
the shock value of like, you know, the realness, you know,

(09:23):
girls who were like not colockable um coming out on
national television to like really straight, doggy type dudes. And
they did that and they there was a riot on stage.
It was like baits through everything everywhere, And you do
you don't remember this? Said, you didn't see this episode?

(09:43):
It was nuts or is it a man or a woman?
His whole entire career was or you a man or woman?
So I couldn't tell you which one it was because
it was I know, but these were black girls, So
I was particularly interested UM. And so I wrote this
story that was like Michael things always was, how these

(10:04):
men say that they didn't know this woman with trans
that they slept with him. Stevie wanted to get thirteen
keys and man, baby mamas. He ain't never seen a vagina,
but he never made that mistake either, Good blood Jesus. Anyway,
I wrote the story that was. It was in the
form of an apology letter written by somebody who had
been involved in that, just saying, oh, I'm so sorry

(10:27):
that those men lost their minds over this um and
it's kind of ana. But I knew I was. I
always kind of knew that I was going to come
back to it at some point. Oh sent me the script, James,
because James the Carlott is the character originally had a
Brooklyn dialect. So James sent me the manuscript and paper

(10:48):
I printed out out in paper form. So I thought
that there were a bunch of typos in this. So
I went through with my thing, and I did all
the type of right what I had with typos. Where
was actually the dialect? Oh my god, it was. It
was UNI called African American um vernacular English. Oh they yeah, no,

(11:14):
I you speak correctly. And I still go back to
what I want to talk about, how I want to talk.
But when carlt is when I read the story and
I was like, oh my god, this woman has so
many similarities, so many parallels to my actual life. You know,
I had no idea until we met and you told me, yeah,
I mean I only saw your stand up and I

(11:36):
was like, that is the sensibility that that car Lot.
That's exactly the sensibility that car Lotta has, just to
kind of like, you know, no Fox left, you know,
funny as how um survivor. And I said, you know,
I want this person. I want this we to to

(12:05):
be the voice of Carlotta um come come, hell or
high water. It was a wonderful opportunity. It kicked my
but but I'm telling you the payoff now is that
it's doing so well. And I'm so happy that it's
doing so well for you, James, because in my head,
in my heart, I am such a bit. But when
I work for somebody and they believe in me, in
my head, all I could think about is I must
do a good job for this person because they hired

(12:28):
me to do this project. That's how I thought. What
they ready. But that's how I think, well anything when
somebody gives me an opportunity and say I don't want
anybody else to do this, but you, I really want you.
So then I get in my head to say beat you,
gotta kill you, got to kill it so great and
come and and so when James and I were talking,
because Carlado originally was supposed to have been a Brooklyn dialect,

(12:50):
we know, I mean she does, she still does. It's
just you know, you you're from Arkansas. And there were
moments at which Arkansas me into the mix a little
bit too much, and I had to say, let's bring
it to New York. But nobody, you know, nobody. There's
there's a lot of overlap between you know, Black English

(13:10):
all over the country. UM. And you know, the Great
Migration brought so many black folks from the South to
the North. Um. You know my parents generation included, UM.
And so you know there's there. There doesn't have to
be that. I don't think anybody's gonna split hairs about
that except me. And not that much. Wasn't Jeff Forest book?

(13:35):
What was? What was your other books? Jaye? My first
book is called God Says No, and it's about uh,
a fat closet case from South Carolina black man who
is does a lot of really ridiculous things to try
to cure himself of his homosexuality. It's a little comical

(13:56):
but also kind of you know, sad um. And my
second book is called Delicious Foods and the short answer
about what it's about is human trafficking, but human trafficking
in the United States among black people in the South
in the nineties. Right. So I found out reading this

(14:21):
book that was like true stories about labor abuse around
the world, and there was in it. In it there
was a story of this woman who was enflaved pretty much,
although they didn't call it that, right, So they just
you know, held you against your will and didn't pay
you at this farm in Florida in and I lost

(14:45):
my mind. I was like, I have been looking around for,
you know, some way to address the legacy of slavery
in fiction, right, And I thought one of the problems
that a lot of people run into is that, you know,
if you write something that's literally about antibellum slavery, um,
you run the risk of people thinking that it's just

(15:06):
about the past and like, you know, they don't have
to worry about it anymore, and you know, people are
over it. But When I found out about that story,
I was like, oh, ship, it doesn't have to be
a period piece. This ship is still going on. Black
people are still being enslaved in bus South in our
contemporary world. Yeah, is that called indentured? Servit too? I'm, I'm,

(15:31):
I'm and I'm it's no, it's modern slavery is what
it's called. Yes, I know, right, you know what I
was like, No, no, no, no, no no no no
no no no, not that saying that the joke made.
It takes me back to Alex Thomas's joke last night
when he was talking about I was trying to bring

(15:53):
back Peek and Cutton for a hundred I wouldn't give
a damn if it was bad million. I'm not picking up.
I was gonna say, I would do it for like
a month or like, I don't know, a little while,
just to get the money and then give the money
to some charity. You know that's against labor abuse like that.

(16:18):
I mean, you know, it's dangerous to even entertain as
a thought experiment, like, you know, an idea like that,
especially under Trump. I can't even imagine. I fine, I
can only I can only imagine if there's like a
parallel in some you know some you know, a foreign country,

(16:41):
um where where people are just under the thumb of
some dictator. Like that's the only way I can imagine that.
And James, well, you were a world traveler and Jame
is a food kind of so let me tell you
they uh but and he's they what what I'm trying
to remember exactly what you tell me? What you were
about water? What was your your philosophy about water? Oh,

(17:03):
my husband says, I'm a I'm a snob about water. No, no, no,
you called it something else. You are a water critic
or you are No, I didn't say critic. What did
you say? I don't I don't remember. I just sometimes
I just use words and people are like, what was
that word? Different? Like I just used it. I don't
know what you mean. Just use words. Filming and you

(17:24):
uh at taping and you said I'm a water connoisseur
waters was that might have been it? Yeah, it was
something like that because you drink and so James says,
traveled the world. So, James, what's your what is your
favorite place to go and eat? Where is your favorite place?
I'm sorry you're go and eat? Um Legacy did well.
In December, I was in Indonesia, UM, and Indonesia. Indonesia

(17:50):
prood is actually one of my favorites um and one
of the group. And it's kind of hard to get
in New York. Um, it's possible, but it's like it's
not like it's not as ubiquitous as like high restaurants
or whatever. Um, but there was there was always like
some Indonesian food on whatever menu. UM. Even if you
were at like a hotel, there would always be like

(18:10):
off to the side or like in in with the
rest of the restaurants. And it's it's just like really
spicy and UM. They do noodles and they do like
grilled meat stuff and it's just it's a really delicious
um set of of um cuisine things what I mean. Um, yeah, So,

(18:38):
I mean I really love that we ate really well
in Mexico too. I feel like we did not have
a bad meal in Mexico. Yeah yeah, yeah, but just
don't drink that water at least that at the well.
I mean maybe if you're having you know, issues, it's
a good thing. Clean it all out. No, I don't

(19:02):
think it's a good it's like, you know, one of
the micro rooms. That's really the problem. It's nothing, you know,
it was just a laxidents that would be fine, Oh
my god, but it's not particularly slam right now. So
I'm good on purpose. James, I am. I am over
the moon with how many people I get inboxes from that,

(19:24):
because I told you when we would take it, I said, oh, Jame,
if you want my voice, my voice is so weird
to me. But I get so many in boxes from
so many people saying, oh my god, I love the
calmness of your voice while you would tell the story.
And I always say, I promise you that wasn't me.
James put me had a baby so comfortable that I
could do this because I was nervous as hey, let

(19:45):
me just be very honest. I was very It was
my first time I was a virgin. You took my virginity. Jane.
I'm I'm blushing. Um, I know you can't tell, but
I am, uh yeah. I mean, I've worked with actors before,
and I've worked with people who have not had training,

(20:05):
you know, in acting, which is fine, you know, as
long as and you're I mean, you're one of the
only actors I've ever heard begging for line readings. You know,
line reading is like you know, when somebody tells you
exactly how to say the line, and most actors despise
that they will like stab you in the neck if
you give them line reading. When you're like, give me

(20:27):
the line readings, give me the line I want them.
I wanted. So I was like, Okay, here we go.
Let's just you know, bath this out. Let's let's you know,
I you know, I had faith that you could do it,
and I could see how badly you wanted to do it,
and I knew that from my perspective, like I didn't
want to have come all the way across the country

(20:48):
and you know, convinced my publisher to let me do
this and have it not work out, Like that was
not an option. So I was like, you're the best
week we found. You're you know, perfect for the role.
Let's go. But and I was having a good time
with you too, don't you know that That is also

(21:09):
that's also also I mean, that's one of the things
that really makes me think that a collaboration is going
to work out if like I'm having a good time
with the person, Like I don't want to be fighting
with somebody and trying to make work. Um, unless the
fighting is like about the work and not about like
our personal whatever. Right, Um, so I was having a

(21:29):
great time. You were getting it. I mean we you know,
when we went back and listened to that first day,
we were like, oh, this wasn't that bad. Really, No, seriously,
I think some of the some of that first day
is like in the you know, is what they used it?
I don't, you know, it's hard to know after like
after you do record an audiobook, you just give it

(21:52):
away and and then the eddit people who edit it
do all the choices about like which take and all
that stuff. So, I mean, I don't know exactly how
much they took from each day we did it, but
like we went back and redid some of the first day,
but I think they actually ended up using some of
what we did on the first day. Anyway, Yeah, it

(22:13):
was fine. Are you a professor at at what at
which university institute? It's an art school in Brooklyn, Okay?
And you do you create a writing right? Yes? Are
you as patient with your students as you were with me?
Or no? I have to say I probably would be

(22:36):
in a situation in a similar kind of situation. Um,
but there's a little bit of you know, it's more
self selecting. By the time the students get to me,
like they're already saying, like, I have written these things.
I want to be a ruiner. This is what I'm doing.
If it isn't just like I'm gonna try this new
thing writing and it's gonna you know, hopefully it's gonna work. Um, Unfortunately,

(23:01):
I mean if I couldn't, okay, I I could deal with,
you know, helping you figure this out right, I probably
couldn't deal with a whole class a flame Monrose doing
like people struggling in the same way. No, I would
have I would have me times Tan James. No, I

(23:25):
mean there is only one I can. I can tell that.
But you know what, James, So let me ask you
a question, James, when when you so if somebody's in
the audience listening, and they because I would love to
write a book. I want to do my life story.
I want to talk about I do a children's book.
But how would I even go? I have a million
ideas in my head, but I wouldn't know where to
start by saying this is where I started. What would

(23:47):
be the first thing I say, so, how would you
help someone to segue to put all them stories into
a book? But you've got to start. It's but it's
the first step that's the hardest step, isn't it. Well,
I mean when you should really just do is right.
Whenever boot and whenever anybody says like how do I
go start, I'm just like, just start. Don't even worry
about that part, because by the time you finish, it's

(24:10):
going to be completely different than the way you started. Um,
And you know, so much is going to change about
It's not like writers regertitate books or you know, ship
books and like there it is. You know, I think
there's a weird misconception that like writing is you know,
not among writers at all, but like among people readers

(24:31):
sometimes and people who just like show up in readings
and haven't read stuff. They're just like they think that
you just what they read is like a first draft
of what you what you put out on the page,
when in fact it's sometimes like, you know, my first
book went through twenty nine drafts. Um. Some of them
were more intense than others, but like you know, and

(24:54):
I just got used to the idea that that was
about how many it was going to take before the
thing was even you know, showable to anybody. Um, you
know why he confuses to me, James, because my David Copperfield.
The first line in David Copperfield is I'm born, So
I always the very first moment that I have conception, like,

(25:18):
you know, because that's one of my favorite stories. But
I'm like, well, I don't want to start off and
say I'm boring. I don't remember that day. Well someone's
already done it. So yeah, so you definitely don't want
to do unless unless you're retelling your own story in
a way that he is supposed to reference David Copperfield.

(25:39):
That sounds like a funny project. Um, but you want
to be you. I don't think you want to be
Charles Dickens. I don't know who'se Dickens. You want Else's Dickens.
I got my own. I was setting you up, And
so James came to the show that it's not identity

(26:00):
Aledge James. We had such a good time. It's such
a good energy. I love that I have such a
diverse crowd and we this is only our second week
and they're really going to try to blow it out.
They called me this morning, say they're gonna just advertise crazy.
I love that I have such a diverse group of
people Jane and we have from and I was glad
that you were able to see that. Blame my role
because when I was coming to work every day, good god,

(26:22):
I look like a homeless person. I didn't say it,
I did it. I'm but I cleaned out well, Mr Hannahan,
when it's so true. I knew that as well. So
I never said to you, let's take a sealthy because
I knew you would be like, get the hell out

(26:42):
of my face with that camera. I would I didn't
sweatpants and drinking throat coat toils. Yeah it was. It
was such an overwhelming experience for me, but I complained,
like the first four days, I was like, I don't
want to do this ship. It's driving me crazy. And

(27:05):
I don't know whether it was the repeating the words
or the traffic. But there was one land that I
cannot remember, James, that you made me do maybe like
forty two hands because I couldn't Southern accent, like about
five words, but for some strange reason, they kicked my blood.
I think we might have did that about thirty times

(27:25):
you you have well a couple of times you said, oh,
that's good enough, and I kept saying, no, good enough,
isn't good enough. I'll do it until I get it right.
I think that's what made you fall in love with me,
because I was determined that. UM. I think it was
probably some line with the word pig in it. Oh
my god, you kept saying pig and I was like,

(27:47):
that's Arkansas, that's not peg. Every time, every time I
where's James wanted me to nothing that young ladies and gentlemen.
I heard red leather, yellow left. Well, that's a that's
a warm up. It's like a theater kids sort of
warm up. Uh phrase jays Let me now, do you

(28:12):
do you teach the youth as well? Or you only
teach on that level? UM? Do you do you mean
like younger kids? Yes? I have done. I have done
like workshops surprise school exactly. That's what I started. The
very first thing I did that was anything like teaching
was at an organization called Teachers and Writers Collaborative UM.

(28:33):
It's an organization that is now called UM Urban Word
I think, and we were doing after school workshops for
UM uh New York City high school students. They were
like free and they would just chill up and we
would like talk about their writing and hang out with them,
and it was really it was really fun. And that

(28:54):
was part of what made me think I had you know,
it was in the I mean I knew it was
in the lot. I have a lot of like teachers
and ministers in my family background, on both sides of
my family. UM, but I didn't know, but I'd never
actually sort of gone in the room and like tried
to do that. Um so, and it was so much
fun and it was so you know, I opening in

(29:16):
a lot of ways that Um, I kept at it
and here and now I'm a professor, yes, And which
which was more rewarding for you, Jane, the college level
or those those high schools, because when in high school
you get a chance over their money, you also get
a chance to do it in college. I'm teaching um

(29:39):
first year students too, um right now anyway, UM So
it's not that far removed from you know, they're just
they've just gotten out of high school. A lot a
lot of maybe some of them have had a gap year,
but the majority of them are are right out of
high school. And they're also there. I mean they're kind
of at this school, kind of like alternative kids already,

(30:03):
Like there's only a certain kind of kid who wants
to learn how to write. At an art school, it's
somebody who's who's already got like a little bit of
art in the brain, and they've recognized that writing is
an art. And it's not just like, you know, I'm
gonna write, um, a best seller or a romance novel,

(30:23):
although there are some students who were into that kind
of thing. Um, there's there's already there's a lot of
work that I don't have to do with them about
I never I almost never have to say anything stop
writing about puppies and Jesus Like they're already like way
into their trauma sometimes and you know, I sometimes have

(30:44):
to talk them out of, you know, stuff that's like
too harshly depressing. James, let me ask you a question,
do you have do you ever have that eye or
that do you ever see a student and you see
you in it or you see brilliance in this key
and you like, God, this kid is brilliant and and
and they don't recognize their brilliance because a lot of

(31:06):
times people see things in you that you don't see
in yourself. I would have never gotten on the microphone
had it not been for a guy named Mark. I
was that I was terrified to talk to people publicly.
Could you believe at the last night? No, I cannot
believe that, although I could. But you know what I
could believe is that you were terrified because you knew
what you were gonna say. You were gonna say some

(31:31):
rude hit for a woman in the room. There was
another woman that was way more rude. Oh that is true,
But no, I'm talking about before you ever got on stage,
you might have been like, yeah, I think this is
a little bit what it's like for me. Like there's
all this rude ship that I you know, and some
of it's funny. And maybe that's part of where Carlotta
comes from. Right, It's like there's a lot that I

(31:53):
might want to say, and some of it is pretty
rude and sunny. Um, And I don't know what I'm
really comfortable people. I might say some of it, but
like Carlotta was a way of like being able to
just let it rip. Um. So yeah, of course, I
mean there's always like a lot of students have a

(32:14):
lot of even if they're even if they don't realize
what they're doing yet, sometimes they make really interesting choices
that it once they developed some you know, sort of
perspective and control over what they're doing, they'll be like, oh,
that was actually kind of great, and they'll spend a
lot of time like trying to get back to that. Um. Yeah,

(32:36):
but I've had a lot of I mean, I've been
teaching a lot of time. UM. The thing is, though,
like there are not you'd be surprised how that the
percentage of students who go on to do literally what
I'm doing, um, writing fiction, um, is pretty low. So

(32:56):
I don't I never assume that, you know, I never
make assumptions about who I'm teaching. UM. I never think
that you know a student because they're not, you know,
writing brilliant fiction or poetry. I never assume that they
won't have a breakthrough later or that there's something they're

(33:17):
doing that I don't understand. This is there's this colleague
of mind who hasn't a clause that she keeps in
the back of her mind which she deals with students
because she's from Denton, Texas. Mandy Obadiki is obdk is
her name. Um. She she's from Denton, Texas. And in
their town, there used to be this band that every

(33:38):
who was playing in basements all over town and everybody
was talking about how terrible they were and how much
they sucked. Um, I think the parents were anyway. That
was fly Stone, fly we Stone. And he's like, well,
maybe you know it's the sly stone, you know, the
fly Stone defense is Uh, maybe it's there's brilliance there,

(34:01):
but you just can't see it because you're too old
for you, you know. So Um, each and along, how
how have you seen they change with writing? Because back
probably back when you started, there were no apparatus is,
no computers. And I'm not saying you that, Oh I'm
as old as h It was different because you had

(34:23):
to keep notebooks and journals and but now everything you
can do on a computer, on your database and all
of that. Is that easier or do you find that
it was easier when you just had to write it
out on paper and go through your journals? Because to
me as a person, when I have to research things,
of course you can go to Google, but I'm old school.
We used to go to the encyclopedia. I would read

(34:44):
the encyclopedies and it made me, it challenged me to
find research more. Now is that by finker tips. I'm
lazy as hell. So how has it in the game?
How is a technology? Well? Lately? Um, one of my
favorite Google documents as one of my favorite things to use.
Like I rape my syllabus and it's a Google doc

(35:05):
so that you know, everybody just refers to it. Okay,
in the old days, when it was paper, you have
to hand out a paper syllabus, you have to photocopy
it for everybody, and it was like set and if
you wanted to change anything, you had to make sure
that everybody in the class knew that it had been
changed and that there were new rules, right like, But
with a Google document, you can change things like the

(35:29):
day of and you know everybody knows. There's no one document.
There's no like, you know, twenty paper documents that you
have to kind of treat, chase down and and revise. Um.
So I use that a lot, and it's allowed for
a lot more kind of spontaneity, UM, because sometimes they'll
be I'll have a conversation with students in the classroom

(35:50):
and you know, something will come up like, you know,
David Copperfield will come up and I'll be like, oh,
let's read the first ten pages of David Copperfield, and
I'll just drop them into the syllabus. Um For me, though,
I feel like I might not be a writer if
it weren't for word processing. I've really um, I have
written some things, Longhand, but not for a long time.

(36:12):
I really like the feeling of sort of being able
to tinker around with sentences and words and you know,
all of that stuff for a long time before actually
making a decision about which thing is the one I want.
Um So, and I also, you know, I started as

(36:33):
a graphic designer, so I'm really into like you know,
one of the ways that I like to waste time
when I'm writing is to like change the font, like
mess around with the you know, the typography and the
margins and all that kind of stuff. And that does
actually start to show up in the work too, um

(36:55):
and make the writing more interesting for you, because I'm
sure at the writing a and now I will say
you in chapter teen you're probably like, Okay, I'm burned out.
Let me do something different, pitch it up to get
it back exciting for me, well, I think by the
time I'm at chapter ten, I probably have a lot
of um safeguards in place. Um. There's this thing that

(37:19):
happens that I call the fifty page demon. And the
fifty page demon visits you when you have fifty pages
of material that you're kind of okay with, and he says,
you know you could stop right now and you wouldn't
lose that much, so you know, you know you could
just quit. You know, it's not no skin off your ass,
just quit age. Damon? Or is that doubt? Is that?

(37:45):
Is it a fifty page damon or is it doubts?
Because we all still have doubt. I still have doubt.
It's confident design. Well, I like to personify it a
little bit so that it's funny. Um. But you know,
doubts will probably play you throughout the whole process. And
this is a particular moment at which the doubt seems

(38:05):
really convincing because you don't have that much that you
couldn't quit, but you don't have enough to make you
feel like you you know, you're looking over and you're
looking at that gigantic mountain of work basically, and you're like,
I don't know twelve steps up up the mountain and saying,

(38:26):
maybe I'll just go back home. UM, but I I
feel like one of the early steps is to figure
out what kinds of things you're obsessed with and that
you think other people don't know about that are going
to make it UM more important for you to keep working, right,

(38:47):
just keep I mean, that was what happened with Delicious Foods.
I was like, shit, nobody really has been dealing with this,
nobody really even wants to deal with this. But if
we don't look at it, I don't know what is
going to be. You know, I don't know where we're
gonna be if we can't notice that this is happening
and you know, start to do something. But I mean,

(39:09):
there are lots of UM, there are lots of NGOs,
There are lots of nonprofit organizations UM that are are
working on human trafficking and stopping human trafficking. UM, it's bad.
It is I who survived it, and she told me

(39:30):
some of the stories, ain't they were unbelievable. It was
unbelievable that what she survived. Let me just say that
what she survived, I don't even know if I would
have survived and I think I'm a strong person, but
I don't know if I would have survived what she
went through or Carlotta, right, you know, being trans in
a in a men's facility for years and years, being
in solitary confinement for such a long time, you know,

(39:54):
dealing with sexual assault from UH correctional officers whom you
complain about. It's just you know, So, I mean, the
kinds of things that happened to Carlotta are not like
unreal things that I made up. They're like real if
using questions that um, trans people have to deal with
when they're incarcerated at the top of all of the

(40:17):
rest of it. Like I said, Carlotta parallels me so much,
not just trans people, not even just gay people. Some
men they go to prison, or some gay people they
go to prison, may not even go in to go
in on the sexual whatever, but it's taken. I have
watched me and straight men be taken by other men

(40:38):
because they were not just because they were pretty, or
because they were weak or whatever, just because they were
fresh and new on the yard and for which But
fortunately I don't have Carlotta's the same experience. First of all,
I was only in there for forty eight days because
it was not I was young and read with brand
new TVs. There was no place, and they kicked me out.

(41:00):
What I was the I was like a real woman
in a mean and spread of injury. So they like,
get the hell out of here. We got a place
for you. But had that been Jeff, maybe ten years later,
I would still be in there because the but then
they had created wings for trans people, so they had
a whole wing of gay and trans people together, which
came furious because there are a lot of those, though

(41:24):
usually usually trans uh trans women are are left in
general population and have to fend for themselves. Sometimes they
get like Carlotta, taken out of general population and put
into solitary in a and they say that it's for
their own protection, but you know, solitary is hardly up

(41:48):
protection in the long ruin right. It's like you're isolated,
you go nuts. It's you know, frustrating, it's I mean,
it's just as bad, um, if not worse than being
a general and population now here. Now Here wasn't kid
of James. Because I have such a smooth mouthpiece. Let
me say this honestly, because I can talk my way

(42:09):
into and almost out of anything. I did not allow
them to put me in solitary confinement, because that is
the argument they tell you when you're in prison, if
we put you in here and you can be protected.
But I don't want to be alone. A I don't
want to and be I knew how to defend for
myself and not with just my fists, but I knew
how to talk to people because I was from the streets.

(42:31):
I was my uncle's were all gangsters and stones, and
I I knew all the link go and so wait.
And unfortunately, in Carlotta's experience, wasn't like that. She was
just an annocent young kid who was at the wrong
place at the wrong time. And if you guys have
not downloaded the audio or purchased a book to read,
it is the greatest read at such a roller coaster

(42:52):
of emotions. I think, James, you impressed me the most
with Carlotta's character because Carlotta had a has a son
in the in the book, and I have a son,
and James was like, you gave a lot of heart.
I was like, because I can only imagine how being
away from my side for twenty two years would have
done me, and Yeah, that was a really wonderful thing

(43:13):
to realize. UM. And that was several days in right, yeah,
like but yeah, I mean there was there were You
brought a lot to the to the role that I
felt like I wouldn't have gotten to necessarily. Um. There
are just a lot of really warm, funny moments that

(43:36):
I think you're you bringing your own experience UM into
the room. Uh really made them work in a way
that they wouldn't have if it had just been me. Well,
I had The reason I brought a lot to the
table was because you brought it out of me, James,
you are a master at spoken the bear and the
spot to make it was because I'm telling you, James,

(44:00):
I felt defeated after the first day. I also felt
like I was challenging myself, but I didn't think that
I had. I'm telling up that you saw that in me,
pushed me. I thank you for that. I appreciate that
because I would have been I ain't never doing this
ship again, I ain't never doing audio. Well. Great experience

(44:21):
and it's a great way. I want you guys to
get the book, and I want you to get James
as other books, which is what is it what's the
first what's the first one? The first one is called
God says No, God says, oh, James, how many people
do you think when I'm going back to that again,
the heavy set man that was not just black. It's
a lot of heavy death, gay feeling love, They feel

(44:44):
a shame. But here's here's my thing, James. I love
what you said about sometimes that the church will lead
you to to drugs or hate yourself. God will bring
you back. I believe that. I believe that church has
been so health for in the Black community and such
a hindrance at the same time. And it's so tricky

(45:04):
because you need to know who you are before you
go into somebody else's in somebody's church, to say this
person is going to control my life. Because in the
scripture in the Bible, according to the Bible, it says
that God does not even show up to man made temple.
God is wherever you are. God was on that stage
last night with that black dress, yell. But he's not

(45:27):
in man made temples. And because God is in you,
it's his spirit, his joy, his love is supposed to
be within you. Building for so many people, especially with
the Black Church, I can't speak for no other experience,
because I'm only experienced with the Black Church, the Black
Church and religion since so tells so many people you're wrong.

(45:47):
You should be gay, you should be fed, you shouldn't
have sex outside of marriage. So many you shouldn't, but
they never encourage you to say you can or you
are good enough. And I think it's disheartening, But I'm
glad that my grandmother instilled in me, you are the
coldest bitch on the planet. She took me six years old.

(46:08):
I believed all the way into this age. I still believe,
but you're not. I mean, I've known plenty of much
colder bitches, cold like that she meant cold and getting
in Black people's terms like I'm bad, cold in the bag, pastic.
You know, we we have our own language, you know.

(46:29):
That always made me feel like somebody in my family
my life supported me from such a young so it
made me stand on two feet to say I can,
I can, as opposed to I can't. Right, I mean,
there's plenty outside that's gonna tell you you can't do things.

(46:50):
I mean, certainly if you're black, certainly, if you're queer,
or along the many alphabet letters of queerness. Um, you know,
you know, the any excuse to tell you people they
can't do stuff, Um, James, And I'm gonna plan to

(47:11):
see that you here before we in this show. I
want to plan to see I want you to see
what I'm up against against my own community and the
interaction I had with the heterosexual crowd last night because
they didn't respect me. Because I came in kicking open
the door. I allowed that audience to work with me.

(47:32):
I had to crack the egg too, because they were
tighter to beginning, and after that first act I had
to bring them back us. He took them somewhere and
dropped them off. I had to go back and get them.
But I want my community to see that it is
not a fight. If you take the time and let
it organically happen. More people are willing to see you
for who you are if you allow them the time

(47:52):
that it takes for them to see you. It ain't
gonna It's not gonna always happen overnight. And I have
a different story, but you know, the basics are kind
of similar. You know. Um, you know, people look at me,
I'm a large black man that I think they seem
to think they need to be afraid of. Sometimes they

(48:14):
don't understand. I think I've recently started wearing glasses and
now I think people understand a little bit more that
there's a giant brain behind. But you know, if just
you know, I think I'd give people a lot of
what they're not expecting to find from somebody who has
my physical characteristics. But you know, my I get a

(48:36):
lot of strength from my late mom um. I got
a lot of strength from her. Watching was love too, obviously,
But you know when somebody would tell my mother that
she couldn't do something, do you know what her response was,
I watched me right right the challenge. I'm telling you
something about us being challenge and we're like, don't tell

(48:58):
me what I can do. Let me show you that
I can't. And what I've found out in my so
many years of working in the industry is because I
was so strong in my presence and I was comfortable
with being me and my style of dress, that a
lot of times people don't know what they want until
you show it to him. So I believe in showing
it to him. So this is what you missing. I

(49:18):
am very much from the Gianna Reland school of uh,
philosophy about entertainment, right, do you know, Gianna Freeland, I'm
waiting to move boom waiting on YouTube, explain it to me.
Editor of Volk. She was kind of eccentric and she
wrote all these books that are they're like really loopy

(49:39):
um or she would say something like we need these
girls with small heads in the back of the book,
just like really crazy stuff. She's hilarious. But one of
the things she would say most often was give the
people what they never knew they want. And I've always
thought that that was a wonderful way of stink to

(50:00):
you about you know, art and commerce. Well, I just
want to applaud you, Mr Hannah Hand for um being
such a wonderful person teaching people, helping people. I think, James,
that you will also be a bridge in the gap
of us and them to make us all one, because
you're so well rounded, you so versed with Oh yeah,

(50:25):
I believe that you're smooth. I watched you with the
men that we worked with at that studio. Those guys
I might have been a little extreme for them, but
they were so even killed with you, and they came
around I think that like two days they got used
to me it took, but they were. I mean, I

(50:46):
just I treat everybody as you know, equally until such
time as, you know, something happens. I'm not really artically
hitting this ball, but you know, like I tried to,
I try to, you know, treat everybody the same um

(51:07):
and and I expect you know, that same kind of
respect back from people. And if I'm not getting it,
you know, either you know, leave the scene or I
make a demand at some point, and not necessarily a demand.
That's just like you know, my fifth banging on a table.
But just like I just don't budge from my position. Um. Yes,

(51:33):
I don't get violent until anger out of you. I
don't even James, let me ask you a person question.
Have you haven't even had ever had a physical fist fight,
nothing like junior high school? But yeah I have. I
don't even get that from you. I mean yeah, I mean,
I just I'm a lover, not a fighter. Is Can
I say that that's Michael Jackson? I don't know if

(51:54):
I can say that. I will don't. Can we can
we talk about can we say? I mean, at last night,
I'm surprised there were like a ton of Michael Jackson jokes.
There were enough Bill Cosby jokes. Uh for I cannot
make Michael Jackson jokes. At first of all, I love
Michael Jackson. I he was the greatest entertainer of my lifetime.

(52:18):
And our friends with his son friends. Ah, so okay,
we can take we can take that out. No, but
I was actually I actually was not um this I
feel listening to Michael's I grew up on Michael's music.
Was alright, I'm not gonna make any jokes. No you're not.

(52:42):
I'm going to push It's fine with you, James, No, Dukes.
I've applaud you. I appreciate you. Ladies and gentlemen, if
you have not gotten the book. Didn't nobody to give
a ship about what happened to carl It's not it's
not about what happen to cos know about. It's just
didn't nobody give a ship what happened to Carlina? To
give a ship what happened took a lot of you
would think they're saying all kinds of ways to Didn't

(53:04):
nobody give a ship what happened to Carlata. Didn't nobody
give us ship what happened to Carlina? You can emphasize
each of the words in a different way and it
still has the same meeting. Yes, and it is. It
is a roller coast, a right of emotions. It is
real life. It is a struggle, hustle, a survival, but
it is a heart but all of that. And I

(53:26):
want you guys to listen to this story or either
go read the book because it is fantastic and I
would have never known how great it was had Mr
James Hannahan that reached out to me for the next book. James,
that's a lat car latta two at the movie rights

(53:46):
get picked up for these, James. I can see this
being a great, great movie. I really see you could
see this has been a great movie. I think all
I can see right now is there has been some interest. Yeah,
I may be able to announce something at some point
A lot of in the movie. And I don't have
a but I could damn shall be her best girlfriend
in prison. I don't think I haven't thought about that. Da.

(54:14):
It has been a wonderful experience. Mr Hannah Ham, thank
you for coming on and talking with me here at
laughing man and ladies and gentlemen, thank you too. Miss
Flamed well well that's the best, Mr Hannaham and I'm no, No,
you are the best. Are you leaving tomorrow? Yes, doctor
in New York. But I would say I would come
and have breakfast with you, but yet no, it would

(54:37):
have to be like six in the morning, me and
Earl at six in the morning, I might be up,
but only part. The other part is still asleep. Oh,
I love you, James Hannah Ham, thank you. Say make
sure you welcome. Give me your social media handle? Oh
me uh on Instagram the spectacle is real? And on Twitter,

(55:00):
I'm just my name, James hannahm Lying teacher playing teacher.
That's an old song from the eighties. Really nobody remembers it.
It was by a group called Wide Boy Awake. You
make sure you get the book. Did nobody give a ship?

(55:21):
What happened to Carlata? It is with James Hannahan the author,
and it is audible. The audible is them but us truly.
But all the other voices that James, all the other
voices that does not sound like this man great voice
over character acts. So all those other voices, girl and
boy is James. A lot of it is me. You
can tell the same boys. You go up and down

(55:42):
and get deep. Hey, wonderful James HANNAHM. I appreciate you, sir.
Thank you likewise blame man. Y'all can follow me here
on Instagram. Remember I will be in pleasant in, uh, California,
March thirty one to April one. Yaker's me because I'm
looking forward to meeting you and your your your step

(56:02):
your father in law and your and Yonker. I'm looking best.
That's gonna wake him up. I'm ana wake up. Uh.
It's your tickets there and get your things at the
box off. But each of everybody we are at free
voices at the world famous Hollywood Laugh Factory on sunset
from seven thirty to teen. And I don't have to

(56:24):
tell you guys how much fun it is, James, you
tell him how much? What? What was the experience like,
honest because that was your first time see me on stage.
It was it was outrageous, insane, but it was also
you know, diverse and crazy, um and inclusive and offensive
and just really funny. I laughed my face off, but

(56:48):
that's what we want. Thank you, James. I appreciate you, James,
and I will see you soon, sir. Okay, and with
my model here, here, at laughing. We are not trying
to get you to change your mind. We are only
trying to get you to use your mind. But in
order to use your mind, you have to have a man.
Because the mind is the chair with following the will

(57:10):
never get you to the target that you gat you
to somebody else. Patient this don't miss an episode of
Laugh and Learn. Listen and subscribe on the Black Effect
Podcast Network, I Heart Radio, app or wherever you get
your podcasts. Laugh and Learned podcast is a production of
the Black Effect Podcast Network and I Heart Radio. Our

(57:32):
Ejecutive producer is Tiffany Hattish. Our theme music is by
the one and only Christie Payne. Thank you guys. This
is Flaming Row. Don't forget to laugh, Listen and Learn