October 31, 2025 • 30 mins
Matt and the team make a breakthrough in case, nearly 30 years after it began. They identify two persons of interest previously unknown to the public. As new evidence comes to light, the investigation gains momentum, unfolding in real time.
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Speaker 1 (00:02):
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Speaker 2 (00:27):
The views and opinions expressing this podcast are solely those
of the podcast author or individuals participating in the podcast,
and do not represent those of iHeartMedia, Tenderfoot TV, or
their employees. This podcast also contains subject matter which may
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Speaker 3 (00:52):
I have a lot of questions about this man. I
find him strange. I'm always suspicious of people who are
a little too clean, too polished, and you don't really
know who they are. He is said to be intelligent, refined,
even elegant, and yet he spends his time roaming around
(01:16):
the train station area. Why does a man like this
hang out in a place like that? Why does he
hang out there? And why does he become the confidant
of all these women? It's bizarre. Through my research, I
was able to identify his son and established contact. It
(01:37):
went smoothly until I brought up the case, and at
that moment the tone changed and he asked me to
never pronounce the name of his father in our project.
And I told him that was fine, But unfortunately my
guarantees didn't suffice. And from that point on I saw
that he read all of my messages but fused all contact.
(02:06):
And again, why why all of the mystery called? What's
there to hide? What are we not supposed to find out?
Speaker 4 (02:24):
I can't be mysterious?
Speaker 1 (02:28):
The rest They disappearance of a woman from Mount Jacqueline.
Speaker 4 (02:34):
The condition of the victims was sickening, and the question remains,
where is the killer?
Speaker 1 (02:49):
From Tender for TV and I Heeart podcasts, I'm your
host Matt Graves, and this is Lea Monstre Season two,
The Butcher of mass.
Speaker 4 (03:01):
Lazy Levitabricado Di.
Speaker 1 (03:03):
And now the disappearance of a woman from Mont Jacqueline Leclerq,
thirty three years old.
Speaker 5 (03:08):
Come at dievu Chateaubicour.
Speaker 6 (03:11):
This young woman has short, light brown hair and blue eyes,
five feet three inches tall with a normal build.
Speaker 7 (03:17):
She is French speaking.
Speaker 1 (03:19):
You recall Jacqueline, the first victim we covered in this series.
She was a mother of four who was last seen
entering her apartment near the center of Mons at around
eight pm on December twenty second, nineteen ninety six. Shortly
before her murder, she had mentioned to her sister Georgette,
that she kept bumping into the same man at different
places around town. Here are Georgette's words from episode two.
Speaker 7 (03:47):
About a year before her disappearance, she met someone in
the Wauxhall Park in monts She crossed path with him
a few times before, and at one point he approached
her for a conversation. She said, it didn't seem to
be trying to charm or flirt with her. It seemed
like a good person, respectful. She had mentioned this man
(04:11):
to me she found him rather nice, cultured and intelligent,
a pleasure to speak with. After meeting him in the park,
my sister ran into him a few more times. Jacqueline
was surprised by this, and I think that's why she
mentioned it to me. She always seems to bump into
(04:32):
him by chance, but at some point she felt that
these encounters were probably orchestrated, maybe even calculated.
Speaker 1 (04:42):
This mystery man has been a key person of interest
in Jacqueline's disappearance, and Morgan has been attempting to identify
him for over a year.
Speaker 8 (04:50):
If it's a monsieurityputicle, Actually, this guy seemed like a
decent gentleman. He wasn't hitting on her or anything. But
Jacqueline lived in a small quiet in Mons and she
kept bumping into him near her house or other places
in Mons. And because of the ietypical description of this man,
the stylish way he dressed and spoke, I went back
(05:13):
and reviewed my notes from all of my previous interviews
and realized that several people had talked about a man
of similar description.
Speaker 1 (05:22):
When Jacqueline disappeared, her sister kept all of her belongings
and later went through them in detail with Morgan. When
he first started investigating the case, they included a simple
business card with a man's name, telephone number, and address.
At the time, it didn't have any significance, but as
Morgan began inquiring about an elegant, well spoken man who
spent time at Le Metropole, a woman he interviewed said
(05:45):
that it sounded a lot like someone her sister once described.
After several follow ups, he got a name and better Yet,
the second witness had the man's business card and was
still able to find it and share it with Morgan Bengo.
The second car art as a match with the first
card from Jacqueline's sister, along with a confirmatory description of
(06:05):
a man named George, not his real name for reasons
that will become evident. During the time of the murders,
he lived very close to the train station, and he
was a regular at Lo Metropol, so much so that
some people thought he worked there. Madame Gange, her staff
and many of the regulars knew him as well. George
was quite the character and claimed to have psychic abilities
(06:27):
to communicate with spirits.
Speaker 8 (06:31):
He calls himself a medium, and it's true that he
was able to gain the trust of the people who
knew him and consulted with him. Apart from his talent
as a pseudo medium, he also had an attentive fear,
mostly for women, and especially women who were a bit lost.
He liked to play the good Samaritan and listen to them. Actually,
(06:57):
he had a little notebook, and in that notebook he
recorded all of his meetings. But the notes he took
included sexual remarks and rather hardcore remarks that didn't match
at all with the person he wanted to show himself, as.
Speaker 1 (07:14):
I later asked Morgan where he heard that George recorded
sexual remarks about his clients. He confirmed that Madame Gorge,
the owner of La Metropol, told him this.
Speaker 8 (07:26):
He was someone who was always very well dressed in
his early sixties. He spoke eloquently and his French was impeccable.
He sort of seemed out of place around the train station,
as it's not the kind of area where you'd expect
to see someone like him.
Speaker 1 (07:44):
He often met his clients for psychic readings at La Metropol,
and virtually all of them were women.
Speaker 9 (07:53):
Metropol.
Speaker 8 (07:54):
He spent a lot of time at Le Metropol. He
sometimes helped serve drinks behind the bar, and he he
also did his readings there. But a lot of people
had doubts about his talents as a medium, And we
know that he knew several of the victims, Jacquelina. We
already know that he knew Jacqueline. I also got a
(08:15):
first hand testimony from Martin's hairdresser, who described seeing her
with a man of the same description.
Speaker 1 (08:21):
You recall that Martin Bone was murdered the day after
visiting her hairdresser, Edoir. He confirmed to Morgan that Martin
had come to a salon accompanied by a man fitting
George's exact description. He couldn't remember the exact day, but
recall that it was not long before her disappearance. And
when you mention this, he said, quote, I think it
(08:42):
could have been a medium from Le Metropoldrogn.
Speaker 8 (08:45):
Apparently during a reading with a woman Natalie Goda, came
into Le Metropol and walked up to them, and at
that point he lost his patience, told her off, and
then said what the fuck does she want from me now,
which was at all his normal vocabulary attitude, and it
really surprised the woman who was getting the reading. So
(09:06):
now we're already at three victims where we're certain he
knew them.
Speaker 9 (09:09):
Camiki.
Speaker 8 (09:11):
Also there was a friend of Carmelina Russo who thinks
she had contact with him, but I haven't been able
to crosscheck with another witness, and since I only have
one account, I can confirm it one hundred percent. Whereas
for the other victims, I'm sure.
Speaker 1 (09:25):
We're certain that George personally knew the victims, Jacqueline, Martin
and Natalie, And although it's not one hundred percent confirmed,
we believe he knew Carmelina and most likely Pagonia as well,
since they both frequented La metro Pol. Now that we've
(09:50):
tied George to the mystery man seemingly stalking Jacqueline, I
asked Madame Gosh, the owner of Le Metropol, what she
could tell us about him.
Speaker 10 (10:00):
George was a smooth talker. He was incredibly gentle, very
gentle in all that he said. Without a doubt, the
man that she had met several times is the man
who killed her. But it's not George. Do you understand?
Speaker 1 (10:25):
I asked her how she knows it wasn't him.
Speaker 10 (10:27):
No, it's not George who killed the girls. Again, I
asked her how she knows this, But Trisi, I know
by intuition.
Speaker 1 (10:42):
I think it's important to explain that Madame Ganche was
very close to George, so it makes sense that she
would defend him around the time of the murders. We
believe the two were in an intimate relationship.
Speaker 6 (10:53):
She is.
Speaker 10 (10:57):
To kill five women and cut them up? Do you
realize he had to have a special place to do that? Particularly,
George had family. He had children, and he had a wife,
and he had a brother. According to our research, George
did have a wife and children, but they were separated
(11:19):
at the time and he lived alone in his house
which was quite close to the train station and even
closer to the main dumb side. The private investigator Xavier
de cont has been helping me research persons of interest
in this case.
Speaker 3 (11:34):
It's been difficult to find information about the men were
calling George. All I had at the start was a
date of birth, the fact that he had once lived
in France, and that he had a brother. So what
I can tell you is that at the time of
the murders in nineteen ninety six, George was sixty three
years old. Concerning his past, we know that during his
(11:58):
childhood he attended the Catholic boarding school, where, according to
a witness, he experienced some sort of sexual abuse, but
we can't verify this professional Concerning his professional life, it
was stated that he was involved with notary and estate
services where he organized property visits. During one of these visits,
(12:24):
a cadavera would have been found on one of the properties,
but he wasn't suspected of anything criminal related to that.
Since I had so little information, I did research in
genealogical databases to try to find out more about his family.
I learned that he came from a large family and
had several brothers and sisters, which led me to hope
(12:49):
i'd be able to find someone who could help me
locate him. As mentioned, I was able to make contact
with his son, which started off well until I mentioned
the case, and then he immediately he stopped talking and
since then I've not had any more contact with his son.
In summary, we don't have very much about George. We
(13:11):
know that at the time he was in his early sixties,
he had been married, but was living about from his family.
Speaker 1 (13:19):
Given his connection with le Metropold, George was also questioned. However,
police didn't have anything implicating him in the murders. Apparently,
he was very interested in the case and followed developments closely.
In fact, he became somewhat of a go to person
for people wanting to know more about what was going on.
At one point, police worked with Belgium's national broadcaster to
(13:42):
produce a TV segment with a public appeal for witnesses
to come forward, and George was featured anonymously de Bacle.
Speaker 8 (13:51):
When the television crew came to le Metropol to film
the public appeal, for witnesses. George drew attention to himself
and even welcomed the TV crew into his home. He
was very interested in the investigation and everything going on,
and he was making himself the center of attention.
Speaker 1 (14:12):
Frederick lah, the investigative journalist who you've heard speaking English
and previous episodes, was part of my interview with Morgan.
As our discussion was in French, I've included the translation.
Speaker 4 (14:23):
Satitude particular the jor Roki.
Speaker 11 (14:26):
The particular attitude of George, who showed himself to be
more than helpful, raised the eyebrows of certain investigators and
they ended up having suspicions about him. He see miscoms
that he was inserting himself into the investigation and putting
himself forward.
Speaker 1 (14:46):
To learn more about this, I spoke to the profiler,
doctor Danielle Zuquer, who you heard in episode five.
Speaker 12 (14:53):
So the perpetrator is inserting himself in an investigation when
he's looking for controlling the narratives and monitoring progress. This
is really important for him because then he can adapt
and another motive would be to mislead the police so
(15:15):
get them on the wrong track, and sometimes also to
because he's seeking for some attention.
Speaker 9 (15:23):
Yeah.
Speaker 12 (15:23):
For example, the BTK got involved in the investigation, and
I think it was trying to get attention and be
sure that the media as would talk about him.
Speaker 1 (15:36):
Doctor Zuker is referring to the infamous BTK killer Dennis Raider,
who actually complained in a letter to a newspaper that
he felt the police in media weren't paying enough attention
to him. Morgan explains another worrying fact about George on.
Speaker 8 (15:52):
Em There's another interesting detail I can add find any
no non set because tomorrow, at the end of nineteen
ninety seven, not long after becoming interested in the investigation
and filming the appeal for a witnesses.
Speaker 9 (16:06):
Segment, George vas de Menege.
Speaker 8 (16:10):
George relocated rather abruptly to Normandy in France, and this
was another element that investigators questioned why this hasty moved
to France.
Speaker 1 (16:21):
In fact, we learned that he skipped down quickly without
even paying his rent, a hasty departure. Indeed, we also
learned that the house he moved into in France was
actually owned by Madame Ganche. It's obviously sensitive to discuss
George with Madame Ganche, based on their relationship at the time. Furthermore,
authorities also treated her as a person of interest in
(16:43):
the case, having known all the victims, although no further
action was taken. It's an interesting twist, she explains.
Speaker 10 (16:52):
So they tried to find out if I had anything
to do with the butcher of Mond's case of and
I noticed it because they called me many many times, Nessir.
They'd come at night, they'd come in the morning, they'd
come at noon all the time, So many times they'd
(17:12):
come speak with me and ask me to repeat everything.
It was a strange experience for me.
Speaker 1 (17:20):
Based on the physical evidence and witness statements, were confident
that George was the mystery man who appeared to be
stalking Jacqueline. Claiming to be a medium, he spent a
lot of time doing ratings with women that had similar
profiles as Jacqueline and the other victims. Through his personal notebook,
we know that he often recorded notes that were sexual
in nature, indicating his true motives and feelings about the women.
(17:44):
Based on matching his business card and description, were certain
that George knew a majority of the victims, given that
they were all regulars at Le Metropos during the period
he spent most of his time there. It's also concerning
that he seemed to be overly interested in the butcher
of mass case, inserting himself into the investigation, and then
as things began to heat up, he skipped town. Our
(18:06):
concerns regarding George and his possible involvement in the case
grew when we heard a new revelation from Madame Ganch.
It's about a conversation that he had with another man
at the bar and hotel l Metropoles not long before
he skipped town.
Speaker 10 (18:24):
I served a coffee to the man in question, and
George was sitting opposite him, and I brought the coffee,
and when I arrived at the table, I heard this
man who was showing his hands to George sitting in
front of him, and he said, I have blood on
my hands. And George came up to the bar and asked,
(18:48):
did you hear what he said to me? And I
said I heard something, but then maybe he was just drunk.
And George said that the man just told him that
he had blood on his hands.
Speaker 1 (19:00):
We'll call the man with whom George supposedly had this discussion.
Danielle also not his real name, as he's not known
to the public and the case is still active, there's
some confusion about what exactly was said in this discussion.
Morgan originally pride this information out of Madame Gone, So
here's what he recalls.
Speaker 8 (19:19):
Madame Gonsch told me that one day George was at
Le Metropol as usual, and another regular named Daniel arrived
and sat down with George and they were talking, and
that at one point Daniel showed his hands to George
and said his hands have killed more than once, or
(19:40):
something like that, and George was shocked, and he went
to Madame Ganch and asked her if he should report
him to the police. And she told George that since
Daniel said this to him, it was up to him
to decide what to do. And it struck me because
it's not the type of thing you hear every day.
And so I started looking into both George and Danielle
to see if they knew each other outside of Le Metropol. Moreover,
(20:04):
they actually lived within hundreds of it from each other.
Speaker 1 (20:08):
Substantiating that this conversation ever actually took place was difficult.
All we had to go on was the version Madame
Gone shared with Morgan, and a slightly different version that
she shared with me. However, the recent discussions with former
police officers we were able to confirm not only that
it took place, but much more. Frederick lah explains.
Speaker 11 (20:30):
I was unaware of everything Morgan just shared about this
at the time of my original.
Speaker 4 (20:35):
Investigation jose Ames avestigation.
Speaker 11 (20:41):
However, I learned recently that George went to the police
at the time to declare that Danielle, a client of
Le Metropol, confided something very particular to him.
Speaker 4 (20:52):
Or in the deficile did not feel more.
Speaker 11 (20:55):
It's difficult to determine the exact timeline of this. Was
it before the discovery of the body parts or after,
most likely after, But in any case, he informed the
police and specifically the Gendarmerie of this first hand account.
Speaker 4 (21:10):
De setimonial Mosque Rousse.
Speaker 11 (21:15):
And so what I know about George is that he
denounced Daniel and set the police on his trail.
Speaker 4 (21:23):
Pie dou Daniel.
Speaker 1 (21:25):
As Frederick mentioned, George went specifically to the Gendarmerie to
report his conversation with Danielle. In Belgium at the time,
there were two main police forces, the Gendarmerie, a national
force under the Defense Ministry, and the judicial police, an
investigative force reporting in to the public prosecutor. If you
listen to season one of La Montstre, you'll recall that
(21:47):
these two police forces were in the throes of major
jurisdictional battles in the late nineties. It was practically open
war between the two forces. The judicial police were handling
the butcher of Man's case, but George reported his conversation
with Danielle to the Gendarmerie, who didn't bother to notify
the judicial police working on the case.
Speaker 4 (22:10):
Leavetemonial.
Speaker 11 (22:12):
George went to the Gendarmerie to tell them about the
conversation he had with Danielle. The gendarmes then summoned Danielle
to come for an interview to explain his purported statement
about having blood on his hands. So he must have
received a letter asking him to come to the Gendarmerie,
and so before going he had time to make evidence
(22:34):
disappear if there was any, and also to prepare for
the interrogation. So, according to what I've learned, this was
a major source of frustration for the investigators who were
working the case, because they think that summoning him wasn't
the right approach. He should have been questioned without notice,
(22:55):
eventually with a warrant, ready to go for a search
in the interest of the case, It wasn't the right
to push.
Speaker 1 (23:02):
If you're investigating a potential serial killer, you obviously wouldn't
want to tip him off before speaking with him. This
mistake would never have happened had the judicial police in
charge of the case received the initial tip. Until recently,
(23:32):
the existence of Danielle was completely unknown to us. The
fact that he was questioned as a person of interest
in the case is not public knowledge. When we first
learned about it, I thought it would be just another
rabbit hole. A vague remark about a drunk guy at
a bar is hardly a scoop. But after we were
able to identify him and start investigating his potential connection,
(23:54):
it got interesting really quick. Danielle lived on the same
street as the main dumb Side, less than five hundred
meters from where most of the body parts were found.
He was a regular at Le Metropol and other bars
around the train station area. Prior to when the murders started,
he'd been in a relationship that ended as a major
disappointment for him when a woman he loved ended their
(24:16):
relationship leaving him heartbroken. At the time of the murders,
he was experiencing a difficult phase in his life that
he himself described as his quote dark period, and just
as the murders stopped, he started a new relationship with
a woman who would later become his wife, and this
woman's profile was very similar to the other victims. Morgan
(24:38):
explains what we've learned about this dark period in his life.
Speaker 9 (24:41):
San Josu Nikias.
Speaker 8 (24:44):
He was a night owl who spent a lot of
time in the establishments surrounding the station, and specifically Le Metropol,
and he drank heavily tradiscret He was very discreet and withdrawn,
and few people really knew him other than his first name.
Speaker 4 (25:00):
He also had a nickname.
Speaker 1 (25:02):
We decided not to publicly share Danielle's nickname, but awareness
of it has proven to be valuable for investigation.
Speaker 8 (25:10):
He apparently had a strange way of relating to women.
I can't say with absolute certainty that it was him,
but I've heard accounts about a man of the same
mental and physical description who had difficulties in his relationships
with women. Plants the second. Multiple women complained about his behavior.
(25:31):
That doesn't make him a killer, but it makes you
ask what's he doing in these bars at night and
why is he having problems with women.
Speaker 1 (25:39):
Prior to her disappearance, Jacqueline mentioned to her sister that
a man named Danielle, who became aggressive when drinking, had
repeatedly tried to approach her at a bar near her apartment.
We have no idea if this was the same Danielle,
as his real first name is quite common, and Jacqueline
was beautiful and unwanted advances were a frequent occurring for her.
(26:06):
Our investigation into George has placed him in direct contact
with multiple victims, in this case, Following that lead has
led us to Danielle. Sitting here, I'm starting to feel
like we've pulled on a thread that's actually taking us somewhere.
As I begin to peel the onion around the intriguing
(26:26):
characters of George and Danielle, each layer reveals something new.
The fact that Madame Gange was questioned as a suspect
and that she personally knew all of the victims as
well as George and Danielle is a revelation what was
really going on at Le Metropold. How can five women
who frequented this establishment simply disappear and then be found
(26:50):
murdered and dismembered, without any of the regulars having the
faintest idea of what happened to them. The more we
learn about George and Daniell, the more we believe that
either one or both of these men are the most
compelling persons of interest in this case, since the investigation
started almost thirty years ago. Next time, on the season
(27:15):
finale of La Mosca.
Speaker 6 (27:19):
She passed the car and had time to see the
silhouette of a person, a man alone in a station wagon.
He told me that in his mind, in any case,
he believes he saw the trash backs being deposited by
the butcher of Moss.
Speaker 8 (27:35):
Shortly before the trash backs were found, he noticed a
man meticulously cleaning out an open station wagon in this
street where the witness lived himself, and it jumped out
at him because the man didn't live in his street.
Speaker 5 (27:50):
In an aggressive tone, he told me I shouldn't have
reported her missing because it had caused him serious problems.
I felt threatened. I'd never seen him like that before.
I assume his violent reaction was linked to the report
I had made to the police.
Speaker 13 (28:04):
It's true that once, when I was very drunk, I
said to George, you see, George, these hands have blood
on them. I was completely wasted.
Speaker 10 (28:15):
Champ he came to get a room with Natalie. He
came in here and walked straight up to me and
asked for a room. She was dead a few weeks later.
Speaker 1 (28:36):
Le Montre is a production of Tenderfoot TV and iHeart Podcasts, hosted, written,
and executive produced by me. Matt Graves, Donald Albright and
Payne Lindsay are executive producers on the behalf of Tenderfoot TV,
with producer Makeup and Vanity Said. Matt Frederick and Trevor
Young are executive producers on the behalf of iHeart Podcasts.
(28:56):
Original music by Jay Ragsdale, Sound design and master by
Cooper Skinner. Cover design by Byron McCoy and Trevor Eiler.
La Monstre includes archival audio from Sonnema RTBF Archives. Special
thanks to Arin Rosenbaum and the team at UTA, the
Nord Group, and our active investigation team Morgen van Leerberg,
(29:18):
Fredrich lah Xervid Con and Anna Gardon, as well as
the teams at iHeart Podcasts and Tenderfoot TV. Find us
on social media at Monster Underscore pod. For more podcasts
like Lea Monstre search Tenderfoot TV in your podcast app
or visit Tenderfoot TV. Ready to keep listening, remember you
(29:47):
can binge the rest of the season right now with
an iHeart True Crime Plus subscription available exclusively on Apple Podcasts.
Speaker 9 (29:54):
Plus.
Speaker 1 (29:54):
You'll get exclusive bonus episodes and add free listening. So
head to Apple Podcasts search iHeart True Crime Plus and
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The Butcher of Moss is released weekly absolutely free, but
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Speaker 2 (00:27):
The views and opinions expressing this podcast are solely those
of the podcast author or individuals participating in the podcast,
and do not represent those of iHeartMedia, Tenderfoot TV, or
their employees. This podcast also contains subject matter which may
not be suitable for everyone. Listener discretion is advised.
Speaker 3 (00:52):
I have a lot of questions about this man. I
find him strange. I'm always suspicious of people who are
a little too clean, too polished, and you don't really
know who they are. He is said to be intelligent, refined,
even elegant, and yet he spends his time roaming around
(01:16):
the train station area. Why does a man like this
hang out in a place like that? Why does he
hang out there? And why does he become the confidant
of all these women? It's bizarre. Through my research, I
was able to identify his son and established contact. It
(01:37):
went smoothly until I brought up the case, and at
that moment the tone changed and he asked me to
never pronounce the name of his father in our project.
And I told him that was fine, But unfortunately my
guarantees didn't suffice. And from that point on I saw
that he read all of my messages but fused all contact.
(02:06):
And again, why why all of the mystery called? What's
there to hide? What are we not supposed to find out?
Speaker 4 (02:24):
I can't be mysterious?
Speaker 1 (02:28):
The rest They disappearance of a woman from Mount Jacqueline.
Speaker 4 (02:34):
The condition of the victims was sickening, and the question remains,
where is the killer?
Speaker 1 (02:49):
From Tender for TV and I Heeart podcasts, I'm your
host Matt Graves, and this is Lea Monstre Season two,
The Butcher of mass.
Speaker 4 (03:01):
Lazy Levitabricado Di.
Speaker 1 (03:03):
And now the disappearance of a woman from Mont Jacqueline Leclerq,
thirty three years old.
Speaker 5 (03:08):
Come at dievu Chateaubicour.
Speaker 6 (03:11):
This young woman has short, light brown hair and blue eyes,
five feet three inches tall with a normal build.
Speaker 7 (03:17):
She is French speaking.
Speaker 1 (03:19):
You recall Jacqueline, the first victim we covered in this series.
She was a mother of four who was last seen
entering her apartment near the center of Mons at around
eight pm on December twenty second, nineteen ninety six. Shortly
before her murder, she had mentioned to her sister Georgette,
that she kept bumping into the same man at different
places around town. Here are Georgette's words from episode two.
Speaker 7 (03:47):
About a year before her disappearance, she met someone in
the Wauxhall Park in monts She crossed path with him
a few times before, and at one point he approached
her for a conversation. She said, it didn't seem to
be trying to charm or flirt with her. It seemed
like a good person, respectful. She had mentioned this man
(04:11):
to me she found him rather nice, cultured and intelligent,
a pleasure to speak with. After meeting him in the park,
my sister ran into him a few more times. Jacqueline
was surprised by this, and I think that's why she
mentioned it to me. She always seems to bump into
(04:32):
him by chance, but at some point she felt that
these encounters were probably orchestrated, maybe even calculated.
Speaker 1 (04:42):
This mystery man has been a key person of interest
in Jacqueline's disappearance, and Morgan has been attempting to identify
him for over a year.
Speaker 8 (04:50):
If it's a monsieurityputicle, Actually, this guy seemed like a
decent gentleman. He wasn't hitting on her or anything. But
Jacqueline lived in a small quiet in Mons and she
kept bumping into him near her house or other places
in Mons. And because of the ietypical description of this man,
the stylish way he dressed and spoke, I went back
(05:13):
and reviewed my notes from all of my previous interviews
and realized that several people had talked about a man
of similar description.
Speaker 1 (05:22):
When Jacqueline disappeared, her sister kept all of her belongings
and later went through them in detail with Morgan. When
he first started investigating the case, they included a simple
business card with a man's name, telephone number, and address.
At the time, it didn't have any significance, but as
Morgan began inquiring about an elegant, well spoken man who
spent time at Le Metropole, a woman he interviewed said
(05:45):
that it sounded a lot like someone her sister once described.
After several follow ups, he got a name and better Yet,
the second witness had the man's business card and was
still able to find it and share it with Morgan Bengo.
The second car art as a match with the first
card from Jacqueline's sister, along with a confirmatory description of
(06:05):
a man named George, not his real name for reasons
that will become evident. During the time of the murders,
he lived very close to the train station, and he
was a regular at Lo Metropol, so much so that
some people thought he worked there. Madame Gange, her staff
and many of the regulars knew him as well. George
was quite the character and claimed to have psychic abilities
(06:27):
to communicate with spirits.
Speaker 8 (06:31):
He calls himself a medium, and it's true that he
was able to gain the trust of the people who
knew him and consulted with him. Apart from his talent
as a pseudo medium, he also had an attentive fear,
mostly for women, and especially women who were a bit lost.
He liked to play the good Samaritan and listen to them. Actually,
(06:57):
he had a little notebook, and in that notebook he
recorded all of his meetings. But the notes he took
included sexual remarks and rather hardcore remarks that didn't match
at all with the person he wanted to show himself, as.
Speaker 1 (07:14):
I later asked Morgan where he heard that George recorded
sexual remarks about his clients. He confirmed that Madame Gorge,
the owner of La Metropol, told him this.
Speaker 8 (07:26):
He was someone who was always very well dressed in
his early sixties. He spoke eloquently and his French was impeccable.
He sort of seemed out of place around the train station,
as it's not the kind of area where you'd expect
to see someone like him.
Speaker 1 (07:44):
He often met his clients for psychic readings at La Metropol,
and virtually all of them were women.
Speaker 9 (07:53):
Metropol.
Speaker 8 (07:54):
He spent a lot of time at Le Metropol. He
sometimes helped serve drinks behind the bar, and he he
also did his readings there. But a lot of people
had doubts about his talents as a medium, And we
know that he knew several of the victims, Jacquelina. We
already know that he knew Jacqueline. I also got a
(08:15):
first hand testimony from Martin's hairdresser, who described seeing her
with a man of the same description.
Speaker 1 (08:21):
You recall that Martin Bone was murdered the day after
visiting her hairdresser, Edoir. He confirmed to Morgan that Martin
had come to a salon accompanied by a man fitting
George's exact description. He couldn't remember the exact day, but
recall that it was not long before her disappearance. And
when you mention this, he said, quote, I think it
(08:42):
could have been a medium from Le Metropoldrogn.
Speaker 8 (08:45):
Apparently during a reading with a woman Natalie Goda, came
into Le Metropol and walked up to them, and at
that point he lost his patience, told her off, and
then said what the fuck does she want from me now,
which was at all his normal vocabulary attitude, and it
really surprised the woman who was getting the reading. So
(09:06):
now we're already at three victims where we're certain he
knew them.
Speaker 9 (09:09):
Camiki.
Speaker 8 (09:11):
Also there was a friend of Carmelina Russo who thinks
she had contact with him, but I haven't been able
to crosscheck with another witness, and since I only have
one account, I can confirm it one hundred percent. Whereas
for the other victims, I'm sure.
Speaker 1 (09:25):
We're certain that George personally knew the victims, Jacqueline, Martin
and Natalie, And although it's not one hundred percent confirmed,
we believe he knew Carmelina and most likely Pagonia as well,
since they both frequented La metro Pol. Now that we've
(09:50):
tied George to the mystery man seemingly stalking Jacqueline, I
asked Madame Gosh, the owner of Le Metropol, what she
could tell us about him.
Speaker 10 (10:00):
George was a smooth talker. He was incredibly gentle, very
gentle in all that he said. Without a doubt, the
man that she had met several times is the man
who killed her. But it's not George. Do you understand?
Speaker 1 (10:25):
I asked her how she knows it wasn't him.
Speaker 10 (10:27):
No, it's not George who killed the girls. Again, I
asked her how she knows this, But Trisi, I know
by intuition.
Speaker 1 (10:42):
I think it's important to explain that Madame Ganche was
very close to George, so it makes sense that she
would defend him around the time of the murders. We
believe the two were in an intimate relationship.
Speaker 6 (10:53):
She is.
Speaker 10 (10:57):
To kill five women and cut them up? Do you
realize he had to have a special place to do that? Particularly,
George had family. He had children, and he had a wife,
and he had a brother. According to our research, George
did have a wife and children, but they were separated
(11:19):
at the time and he lived alone in his house
which was quite close to the train station and even
closer to the main dumb side. The private investigator Xavier
de cont has been helping me research persons of interest
in this case.
Speaker 3 (11:34):
It's been difficult to find information about the men were
calling George. All I had at the start was a
date of birth, the fact that he had once lived
in France, and that he had a brother. So what
I can tell you is that at the time of
the murders in nineteen ninety six, George was sixty three
years old. Concerning his past, we know that during his
(11:58):
childhood he attended the Catholic boarding school, where, according to
a witness, he experienced some sort of sexual abuse, but
we can't verify this professional Concerning his professional life, it
was stated that he was involved with notary and estate
services where he organized property visits. During one of these visits,
(12:24):
a cadavera would have been found on one of the properties,
but he wasn't suspected of anything criminal related to that.
Since I had so little information, I did research in
genealogical databases to try to find out more about his family.
I learned that he came from a large family and
had several brothers and sisters, which led me to hope
(12:49):
i'd be able to find someone who could help me
locate him. As mentioned, I was able to make contact
with his son, which started off well until I mentioned
the case, and then he immediately he stopped talking and
since then I've not had any more contact with his son.
In summary, we don't have very much about George. We
(13:11):
know that at the time he was in his early sixties,
he had been married, but was living about from his family.
Speaker 1 (13:19):
Given his connection with le Metropold, George was also questioned. However,
police didn't have anything implicating him in the murders. Apparently,
he was very interested in the case and followed developments closely.
In fact, he became somewhat of a go to person
for people wanting to know more about what was going on.
At one point, police worked with Belgium's national broadcaster to
(13:42):
produce a TV segment with a public appeal for witnesses
to come forward, and George was featured anonymously de Bacle.
Speaker 8 (13:51):
When the television crew came to le Metropol to film
the public appeal, for witnesses. George drew attention to himself
and even welcomed the TV crew into his home. He
was very interested in the investigation and everything going on,
and he was making himself the center of attention.
Speaker 1 (14:12):
Frederick lah, the investigative journalist who you've heard speaking English
and previous episodes, was part of my interview with Morgan.
As our discussion was in French, I've included the translation.
Speaker 4 (14:23):
Satitude particular the jor Roki.
Speaker 11 (14:26):
The particular attitude of George, who showed himself to be
more than helpful, raised the eyebrows of certain investigators and
they ended up having suspicions about him. He see miscoms
that he was inserting himself into the investigation and putting
himself forward.
Speaker 1 (14:46):
To learn more about this, I spoke to the profiler,
doctor Danielle Zuquer, who you heard in episode five.
Speaker 12 (14:53):
So the perpetrator is inserting himself in an investigation when
he's looking for controlling the narratives and monitoring progress. This
is really important for him because then he can adapt
and another motive would be to mislead the police so
(15:15):
get them on the wrong track, and sometimes also to
because he's seeking for some attention.
Speaker 9 (15:23):
Yeah.
Speaker 12 (15:23):
For example, the BTK got involved in the investigation, and
I think it was trying to get attention and be
sure that the media as would talk about him.
Speaker 1 (15:36):
Doctor Zuker is referring to the infamous BTK killer Dennis Raider,
who actually complained in a letter to a newspaper that
he felt the police in media weren't paying enough attention
to him. Morgan explains another worrying fact about George on.
Speaker 8 (15:52):
Em There's another interesting detail I can add find any
no non set because tomorrow, at the end of nineteen
ninety seven, not long after becoming interested in the investigation
and filming the appeal for a witnesses.
Speaker 9 (16:06):
Segment, George vas de Menege.
Speaker 8 (16:10):
George relocated rather abruptly to Normandy in France, and this
was another element that investigators questioned why this hasty moved
to France.
Speaker 1 (16:21):
In fact, we learned that he skipped down quickly without
even paying his rent, a hasty departure. Indeed, we also
learned that the house he moved into in France was
actually owned by Madame Ganche. It's obviously sensitive to discuss
George with Madame Ganche, based on their relationship at the time. Furthermore,
authorities also treated her as a person of interest in
(16:43):
the case, having known all the victims, although no further
action was taken. It's an interesting twist, she explains.
Speaker 10 (16:52):
So they tried to find out if I had anything
to do with the butcher of Mond's case of and
I noticed it because they called me many many times, Nessir.
They'd come at night, they'd come in the morning, they'd
come at noon all the time, So many times they'd
(17:12):
come speak with me and ask me to repeat everything.
It was a strange experience for me.
Speaker 1 (17:20):
Based on the physical evidence and witness statements, were confident
that George was the mystery man who appeared to be
stalking Jacqueline. Claiming to be a medium, he spent a
lot of time doing ratings with women that had similar
profiles as Jacqueline and the other victims. Through his personal notebook,
we know that he often recorded notes that were sexual
in nature, indicating his true motives and feelings about the women.
(17:44):
Based on matching his business card and description, were certain
that George knew a majority of the victims, given that
they were all regulars at Le Metropos during the period
he spent most of his time there. It's also concerning
that he seemed to be overly interested in the butcher
of mass case, inserting himself into the investigation, and then
as things began to heat up, he skipped town. Our
(18:06):
concerns regarding George and his possible involvement in the case
grew when we heard a new revelation from Madame Ganch.
It's about a conversation that he had with another man
at the bar and hotel l Metropoles not long before
he skipped town.
Speaker 10 (18:24):
I served a coffee to the man in question, and
George was sitting opposite him, and I brought the coffee,
and when I arrived at the table, I heard this
man who was showing his hands to George sitting in
front of him, and he said, I have blood on
my hands. And George came up to the bar and asked,
(18:48):
did you hear what he said to me? And I
said I heard something, but then maybe he was just drunk.
And George said that the man just told him that
he had blood on his hands.
Speaker 1 (19:00):
We'll call the man with whom George supposedly had this discussion.
Danielle also not his real name, as he's not known
to the public and the case is still active, there's
some confusion about what exactly was said in this discussion.
Morgan originally pride this information out of Madame Gone, So
here's what he recalls.
Speaker 8 (19:19):
Madame Gonsch told me that one day George was at
Le Metropol as usual, and another regular named Daniel arrived
and sat down with George and they were talking, and
that at one point Daniel showed his hands to George
and said his hands have killed more than once, or
(19:40):
something like that, and George was shocked, and he went
to Madame Ganch and asked her if he should report
him to the police. And she told George that since
Daniel said this to him, it was up to him
to decide what to do. And it struck me because
it's not the type of thing you hear every day.
And so I started looking into both George and Danielle
to see if they knew each other outside of Le Metropol. Moreover,
(20:04):
they actually lived within hundreds of it from each other.
Speaker 1 (20:08):
Substantiating that this conversation ever actually took place was difficult.
All we had to go on was the version Madame
Gone shared with Morgan, and a slightly different version that
she shared with me. However, the recent discussions with former
police officers we were able to confirm not only that
it took place, but much more. Frederick lah explains.
Speaker 11 (20:30):
I was unaware of everything Morgan just shared about this
at the time of my original.
Speaker 4 (20:35):
Investigation jose Ames avestigation.
Speaker 11 (20:41):
However, I learned recently that George went to the police
at the time to declare that Danielle, a client of
Le Metropol, confided something very particular to him.
Speaker 4 (20:52):
Or in the deficile did not feel more.
Speaker 11 (20:55):
It's difficult to determine the exact timeline of this. Was
it before the discovery of the body parts or after,
most likely after, But in any case, he informed the
police and specifically the Gendarmerie of this first hand account.
Speaker 4 (21:10):
De setimonial Mosque Rousse.
Speaker 11 (21:15):
And so what I know about George is that he
denounced Daniel and set the police on his trail.
Speaker 4 (21:23):
Pie dou Daniel.
Speaker 1 (21:25):
As Frederick mentioned, George went specifically to the Gendarmerie to
report his conversation with Danielle. In Belgium at the time,
there were two main police forces, the Gendarmerie, a national
force under the Defense Ministry, and the judicial police, an
investigative force reporting in to the public prosecutor. If you
listen to season one of La Montstre, you'll recall that
(21:47):
these two police forces were in the throes of major
jurisdictional battles in the late nineties. It was practically open
war between the two forces. The judicial police were handling
the butcher of Man's case, but George reported his conversation
with Danielle to the Gendarmerie, who didn't bother to notify
the judicial police working on the case.
Speaker 4 (22:10):
Leavetemonial.
Speaker 11 (22:12):
George went to the Gendarmerie to tell them about the
conversation he had with Danielle. The gendarmes then summoned Danielle
to come for an interview to explain his purported statement
about having blood on his hands. So he must have
received a letter asking him to come to the Gendarmerie,
and so before going he had time to make evidence
(22:34):
disappear if there was any, and also to prepare for
the interrogation. So, according to what I've learned, this was
a major source of frustration for the investigators who were
working the case, because they think that summoning him wasn't
the right approach. He should have been questioned without notice,
(22:55):
eventually with a warrant, ready to go for a search
in the interest of the case, It wasn't the right
to push.
Speaker 1 (23:02):
If you're investigating a potential serial killer, you obviously wouldn't
want to tip him off before speaking with him. This
mistake would never have happened had the judicial police in
charge of the case received the initial tip. Until recently,
(23:32):
the existence of Danielle was completely unknown to us. The
fact that he was questioned as a person of interest
in the case is not public knowledge. When we first
learned about it, I thought it would be just another
rabbit hole. A vague remark about a drunk guy at
a bar is hardly a scoop. But after we were
able to identify him and start investigating his potential connection,
(23:54):
it got interesting really quick. Danielle lived on the same
street as the main dumb Side, less than five hundred
meters from where most of the body parts were found.
He was a regular at Le Metropol and other bars
around the train station area. Prior to when the murders started,
he'd been in a relationship that ended as a major
disappointment for him when a woman he loved ended their
(24:16):
relationship leaving him heartbroken. At the time of the murders,
he was experiencing a difficult phase in his life that
he himself described as his quote dark period, and just
as the murders stopped, he started a new relationship with
a woman who would later become his wife, and this
woman's profile was very similar to the other victims. Morgan
(24:38):
explains what we've learned about this dark period in his life.
Speaker 9 (24:41):
San Josu Nikias.
Speaker 8 (24:44):
He was a night owl who spent a lot of
time in the establishments surrounding the station, and specifically Le Metropol,
and he drank heavily tradiscret He was very discreet and withdrawn,
and few people really knew him other than his first name.
Speaker 4 (25:00):
He also had a nickname.
Speaker 1 (25:02):
We decided not to publicly share Danielle's nickname, but awareness
of it has proven to be valuable for investigation.
Speaker 8 (25:10):
He apparently had a strange way of relating to women.
I can't say with absolute certainty that it was him,
but I've heard accounts about a man of the same
mental and physical description who had difficulties in his relationships
with women. Plants the second. Multiple women complained about his behavior.
(25:31):
That doesn't make him a killer, but it makes you
ask what's he doing in these bars at night and
why is he having problems with women.
Speaker 1 (25:39):
Prior to her disappearance, Jacqueline mentioned to her sister that
a man named Danielle, who became aggressive when drinking, had
repeatedly tried to approach her at a bar near her apartment.
We have no idea if this was the same Danielle,
as his real first name is quite common, and Jacqueline
was beautiful and unwanted advances were a frequent occurring for her.
(26:06):
Our investigation into George has placed him in direct contact
with multiple victims, in this case, Following that lead has
led us to Danielle. Sitting here, I'm starting to feel
like we've pulled on a thread that's actually taking us somewhere.
As I begin to peel the onion around the intriguing
(26:26):
characters of George and Danielle, each layer reveals something new.
The fact that Madame Gange was questioned as a suspect
and that she personally knew all of the victims as
well as George and Danielle is a revelation what was
really going on at Le Metropold. How can five women
who frequented this establishment simply disappear and then be found
(26:50):
murdered and dismembered, without any of the regulars having the
faintest idea of what happened to them. The more we
learn about George and Daniell, the more we believe that
either one or both of these men are the most
compelling persons of interest in this case, since the investigation
started almost thirty years ago. Next time, on the season
(27:15):
finale of La Mosca.
Speaker 6 (27:19):
She passed the car and had time to see the
silhouette of a person, a man alone in a station wagon.
He told me that in his mind, in any case,
he believes he saw the trash backs being deposited by
the butcher of Moss.
Speaker 8 (27:35):
Shortly before the trash backs were found, he noticed a
man meticulously cleaning out an open station wagon in this
street where the witness lived himself, and it jumped out
at him because the man didn't live in his street.
Speaker 5 (27:50):
In an aggressive tone, he told me I shouldn't have
reported her missing because it had caused him serious problems.
I felt threatened. I'd never seen him like that before.
I assume his violent reaction was linked to the report
I had made to the police.
Speaker 13 (28:04):
It's true that once, when I was very drunk, I
said to George, you see, George, these hands have blood
on them. I was completely wasted.
Speaker 10 (28:15):
Champ he came to get a room with Natalie. He
came in here and walked straight up to me and
asked for a room. She was dead a few weeks later.
Speaker 1 (28:36):
Le Montre is a production of Tenderfoot TV and iHeart Podcasts, hosted, written,
and executive produced by me. Matt Graves, Donald Albright and
Payne Lindsay are executive producers on the behalf of Tenderfoot TV,
with producer Makeup and Vanity Said. Matt Frederick and Trevor
Young are executive producers on the behalf of iHeart Podcasts.
(28:56):
Original music by Jay Ragsdale, Sound design and master by
Cooper Skinner. Cover design by Byron McCoy and Trevor Eiler.
La Monstre includes archival audio from Sonnema RTBF Archives. Special
thanks to Arin Rosenbaum and the team at UTA, the
Nord Group, and our active investigation team Morgen van Leerberg,
(29:18):
Fredrich lah Xervid Con and Anna Gardon, as well as
the teams at iHeart Podcasts and Tenderfoot TV. Find us
on social media at Monster Underscore pod. For more podcasts
like Lea Monstre search Tenderfoot TV in your podcast app
or visit Tenderfoot TV. Ready to keep listening, remember you
(29:47):
can binge the rest of the season right now with
an iHeart True Crime Plus subscription available exclusively on Apple Podcasts.
Speaker 9 (29:54):
Plus.
Speaker 1 (29:54):
You'll get exclusive bonus episodes and add free listening. So
head to Apple Podcasts search iHeart True Crime Plus and
subscribe today.
Host
Matt Graves
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