November 15, 2022 • 48 mins
A potentially related case from 1993 brings the Dutroux Affair back into the spotlight, renewing interest in DNA testing. Host Matt Graves searches three countries in an attempt to track down an illusive character that may have information related to the larger conspiracy.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are solely
those of the podcast author or individuals participating in the podcast,
and do not represent those of iHeartMedia, Tenderfoot TV, or
their employees. This podcast also contains subject matter which may
not be suitable for everyone. Listener discretion is advised.
Speaker 2 (00:21):
It's October twenty twenty two. While walking down the street,
I received a text message about some breaking news. The
Belgian Minister of Justice has just announced DNA comparisons with
the true file. But this request isn't about any of
the victims that we've been discussing. It's for a different case,
the nineteen ninety three disappearance of a Dutch college.
Speaker 3 (00:44):
Student oh Piba la police i le juste.
Speaker 4 (00:49):
Ma true with the Native Lance student Tanya krun Moko Schlacht.
Speaker 5 (00:54):
I found the warning. I found ninety two agistolets.
Speaker 2 (00:57):
And eighteen year old Tiny Groon disappeared during introduction week
at Mastrich University in Holland, close to the Belgian border.
Speaker 6 (01:07):
Alice is marked a true implicated in the disappearance of
a Dutch student in nineteen ninety three. The Dutch authorities
are studying this question very seriously. The young woman Tanya Groon,
disappeared in Mastricht, close to the Belgian border, in nineteen
ninety three. Dutch authorities are requesting evidence from Belgian authorities
(01:28):
related to this affair.
Speaker 2 (01:30):
Her case has gone unsolved for nearly thirty years, but
it bears striking similarities to some of Dtruz's victims. Could
this renewed interest in DNA from the d True affair
open the door to more victims and more accomplices.
Speaker 7 (01:53):
A psychopaths is somebody who understands emotions.
Speaker 3 (01:58):
And I told them it is a very exceptional that
somebody abducts two children at the same time.
Speaker 4 (02:05):
To have been the yen of it in nineteen eighty six,
but my gods, it was just a beginning.
Speaker 8 (02:12):
I think Belgium was a paralyzed for perverts in those days.
Speaker 2 (02:23):
Welcome to la monstre. I'm your host, Matt Graves. The
announcement of DNA testing in the de True case came
at the request of authorities in Holland, where Tanya Groon disappeared.
They requested DNA profiles obtained from Mark d' tru'z houses
and vehicles. It's a fratuitous development, as I've been working
(02:45):
on the DNA aspects of the de trueffair for over
a year now. I'm hopeful that this might help shake
up the otherwise dormant case file. Tanya disappeared just three
miles from the Belgian border. It was a warm summer
night on the evening of August thirty first, nineteen ninety
three when eighteen year old Tanya Groen attended a student
(03:08):
association party in the center of Maastricht. It was her
first year of university and Tanya just moved into her
new room in the nearby suburb of Gronsvelt. She spoke
with her mother at around seven thirty that evening before
riding her bike to the party, and everything seemed normal.
Fellow students who attended the party reported that nothing seemed
(03:31):
out of the ordinary when she left by bike at
around midnight, presumably to ride back to her room in Groansvelt,
about five miles away. Tanya was approximately five foot seven
with long, dark shoulder length hair, and was last seen
wearing blue jeans. Her housemates were concerned when she never
showed up the next day, but it wasn't until she
(03:54):
didn't show up at her parents' house in the north
of Holland as planned. The following day that they became alarmed.
The disappearance was particularly mysterious, as it seemed as if
she simply vanished without a trace. There was no sign
of Tanya or her bike and no clues whatsoever as
to what may have happened. This case has stumped investigators
(04:18):
for decades, and her parents have never stopped working to
find out what happened to their daughter. In twenty twenty one,
their efforts got a boost when the award winning Dutch
investigative journalist Peter da Vrees launched a crowd funded initiative
called the Golden Tip Foundation to collect money as a
reward for tips leading to the discovery of what happened
(04:40):
to Tanya. In a cruel twist of fate, Peter Davrees
was brutally murdered in broad daylight in the center of
Amsterdam on July sixth, twenty twenty one, just after walking
out of a television studio. I was working on this
podcast at the time, and it really shocked me and
the entire world for that matter, to see a highly
(05:04):
respected journalist gunned down in the capital city of a
modern Western democracy. He was a courageous man who took
on many dangerous stories, including the notorious drug gangs operating
in Holland. It's not believed that his murder had anything
to do with the investigation into Tanya's disappearance. His foundation
(05:25):
raced over a million euros to investigate the Tanya Grouon case.
Given the proximity of the disappearance to Belgium and the
circumstances of a young woman and her bike vanishing into
thin air, has led the cold case team in Holland
to investigate the possibility that the True may have been
involved in some way. Else Sreurs, who you heard from
(05:48):
in episode two, is the partner of Jean Lambrex, the
father of Effie Lambrics, who was abducted and murdered by
De True and his accomplices in nineteen ninety five. I
spoke to Else about tom case.
Speaker 9 (06:01):
The Dutch authorities thought that maybe there might be a
link to the two case as at the time of
Dania's disappearance due to was first of all not in prison.
He was very active. He was very much driving around Europe.
He went to Amsterdam, he went to Mastricht that we
(06:21):
know for sure. He went to Berlin. So that comes
with the element that Danya was riding her bike. The
bike disappeared as well, So it's exactly the same thing
that happened with Sabindaden. She was subducted and her bike
vanished as well together with her. Also during the years
(06:43):
two committed a similar crime. He abducted a girl that
was riding a bike. Also he took the bike with
the girl.
Speaker 2 (06:52):
Remember that way back in nineteen eighty five, during his
first wave of kidnappings and rapes, the True and other
accomplices bundled and her bike into their van while she
was riding down the street. The abduction of Sabine Darden
ten years later in nineteen ninety five had the exact same.
Speaker 9 (07:10):
Mo These are things that are known, and the Dutch
detectives that are working on the case thought that maybe
it was worth looking into the two case in order
to find out whether he might be implied in this crime.
Apart from that in the two case, and that is
also something that is known. There are a lot of
(07:32):
DNA profiles, There are hairs, so, in other words, biological
traces that have not been awarded to some or to
one of the victims or to one of the perpetrators.
In other words, these DNA profiles, these hairs belonged to
unknown persons. Now the Dutch authorities, if I understand correctly,
(07:56):
want to compare Danja's profile with the unknown pro files
found in the Detou case.
Speaker 2 (08:02):
The DNA in the true case is e labyrinth that
I've spent much time trying to understand. It's important to
remember that when detru Is arrested in nineteen ninety six,
DNA testing and analysis was far less sophisticated than today.
There was a lot of evidence collected and analyzed back
in the late nineties and early two thousands. ELSA and
(08:24):
I did a lot of digging through the original case
file to track down the profiles that were established.
Speaker 9 (08:30):
So in the Detoo case, there is a police report
stating the fact that twenty six unknown DNA profiles were established. So,
in other words, twenty six people left traces either in
cars belonging to Dotou or in his house, going from
(08:52):
the basement of his house to the attic up till today.
Up until today, it has not been possible to match
these unknown profiles to either victims victims we don't know about,
or even perpetrators we don't know about.
Speaker 2 (09:11):
About a year ago, I reached out to an independent
forensic DNA expert in the United States named doctor Richard
Eikelenboom to see if he could help me make sense
of what we found. Doctor Eikelenboom's company, Independent Forensic Services,
specializes in bloodstained pattern analysis, touch traces, and forensic pathology.
(09:32):
His work has led to resolution in a number of cases,
including the wrongful conviction of Tim Masters and that of
former Indiana State trooper David Kam, where doctor Eikelenboom found
touch DNA of the killer, leading to David Kam's exoneration
and the conviction of another man. He's also worked extensively
(09:52):
on other high profile cases, including Jean Benet Ramsey and
Aaron Hernandez. One of the reasons that I wanted to
elicit his help is that he's actually from Europe and
spent twelve years as a forensic scientist at the Netherlands
Forensic Institute, so he brings an interesting mix of cutting
edge US based techniques with deep experience in Europe. With
(10:15):
permission of the lone Brecks family, I shared the DNA
information that we could find in the case file, so.
Speaker 4 (10:21):
I look I looked at the reports and information you
send me the pictures, and yeah, in order to come
to better conclusions, we need the raw data. So this
is the real data structed by computers, and what's in
here these are just DNA reports. This this will give
me enough information about the DNA profiles obtained. I missed
(10:44):
the raw data. So what I add? The DNA profiles? Yeah,
you have them in an Excel filel whatever it is,
but it's a table, and what we look at is
the peak.
Speaker 2 (10:55):
Profiles from the outset. It was difficult to have a
clear view of what we have and what we don't have.
After our first meeting with doctor Eichlenboom, Jean Lombricks sent
a letter to the General Prosecutor of Liege requesting information
about the profiles.
Speaker 9 (11:11):
We basically asked. We sent two letters. The first letter
was about the DNA profiles and we wanted to know
whether they were still available to be checked. And the
answer we received to that letter was clearly not the answer.
The exact answer to the question. We got a message
(11:32):
saying that the DNA profiles were introduced in databases. The
thing is, we don't know in which databases they were introduced.
Speaker 2 (11:43):
It's so frustrating that the family of a victim can't
seem to get a straight answer to a simple question
from what we could deduce from the information included in
the case file. There are multiple unidentified profiles that were
established based on DNA collected from the truce house and vehicles.
Speaker 9 (12:02):
There is, for instance, a profile of an unknown person
called unknown number two. This trace was found inside of
the dungeon on the wall, the left wall. But the
problem is that it is with the DNA of Julie
Lezhen and that's what makes it very suspicious and that
(12:25):
troubles us.
Speaker 2 (12:26):
This unknown profile mixed with the blood of victim Julie
Legeen found on the wall of the dungeon is extremely suspicious. Again,
Doctor Richard Eichelenboom as I.
Speaker 4 (12:38):
Understood, there's at least one unknown person present in a
bloodstain of one of the victims, and of course that's
always important. If you have a donor in blood of
the victim, that can be a very incriminating piece of evidence.
And if you look at the sex part of this
DNA table, it says x y. That means that's the
(12:59):
male have an mil in this case. But you can
also see that they are missing information. So DNA parts
of this person dropped out during DNA profiling, and if
you put that in the database, you get no matches
because you didn't exactly put in the right profile. So
the more information you gain from such a profile, the better.
(13:19):
So if you use more sensitive kit, then it's possible
that certain amounts of the DNA which was were dropped
out of this unknown donor would come up and then
you're you know, okay, this profile is a little bit
different than what we thought, and that happened a lot
with cases out of two thousands. If you redo them,
you gain more information, you get a better view on
this real person. And since all the victims in this
(13:43):
case were female, young girls, you could filter those out
if you start doing white bromos only the DNA test,
which is only present in MIL subjects, So then you
get a very good look at the amount of donors
mal donors in a sample. For instance, of the problems
with John bin A Ramsey cases that you had complex
DNA mixtures with a lot of DNA's victim and then
(14:06):
likely to other donors which could be both male which
could also be male female and maybe the mother. So
if you filter the female DNA out of that with
Y chromos only DNA testing because that cannot detect female DNA,
then you left with the male donors. That gives you
a lot of information about okay. So forensically we use
(14:27):
that Y chromosome and DNA testing a.
Speaker 2 (14:29):
Lot else explains further about the unknown DNA profiles.
Speaker 9 (14:34):
Then we have an unknown profile called number three. It's
a profile that was found on a piece of a
pajama something, a piece of cloth that was found in
the attic of the house of the Twin Marxinel. It
has bloodstains on it, it has hairs on it. So
on this piece of cloth a trace is found and
(14:57):
it's determined that it is it comes from a female
human being. But this trace found in the attic has
so far not been matched to anyone.
Speaker 2 (15:08):
This unknown female blood found on pajamas could certainly be
an unidentified victim. All profiles were tested against the victims,
Michelle Martin and the true's children, so it didn't come
from any of them.
Speaker 9 (15:22):
So apart from the DNA profiles that have been established,
there are also a lot of hairs found. Hairs that
were found in cars, also in the house in several places.
These hairs are still available today, but at the time
they have been briefly investigated, but still not matched to
(15:45):
any of the victims, to any of the perpetrators and
the King's prosecutor. What did this? Well, this line of
inquiry cleared, but well, obviously the investigating magistrate didn't want
to do it and he was forced in the end,
he was forced by the Court for Appeals of Liege
(16:09):
back in two thousand and one. Anyway, the result is
still there is still no result today.
Speaker 2 (16:16):
I asked doctor Eigelenboom for his thoughts about who the
DNA profiles could belong to.
Speaker 4 (16:22):
It could be or it's even very likely that the
perpetrators left some of their hairs there. So in that sense,
given that it's much easier and also much cheaper to
do DNA profiling now, it could be useful to look
at those hairs and start testing those. Yeah, I would
certainly want to know who is the person who they
(16:43):
donated his DNA or her DNA inside the bloods in
one of the victims. That's incriminating evidence. To go for
all the forensic evidence which is still there, and then
review a number of samples already taken, but also you
could review evidence itself still there and see if you
can get better results out of that is the new
DNA kids and then using a combination of sensitive new
(17:07):
autosomal dnakeds the standard kids, but also white romosome DNA,
so that you have a much better view of these
mil donors in these samples.
Speaker 2 (17:17):
Else and Jean Lombricks sent a second letter to the
Prosecutor General in August to ask if the evidence collected
in the case still exists. They haven't yet received an
answer to this letter, but I'm hopeful that the evidence
still exists and that it could be retested. Not only
could it potentially help to find out more about other
(17:38):
missing persons from the time, like Tanya Groom, but it
might also turn up new suspects who were never brought
to justice. There are many loose ends in the true
affair that have troubled victims families for years. Some of them,
(17:59):
like DNA tests, are out of our hands, but following
leads and tracking people down are loose ends that we
may be able to tie up. Over the past several months,
I've made progress on that front. You'll remember that throughout
this podcast, starting with episode two, I talked about an
establishment called the Hotel Brazil in the seaside town of Blankenberg,
(18:21):
where Anne Marschal and Effia Lambrics attended a hypnosis show
shortly before disappearing. More than one witness claimed to have
seen Anne and Effia after the hypnosis show, either in
front of the Hotel Brazil or nearby on the same street.
The owner of this hotel and bar had been charged
with engaging in prostitution and human trafficking, and a friend
(18:45):
of the hotel and bar owner, who was also an
acquaintance of Mark de True, was staying at the Hotel
Brazil when Anne and Effiu went missing. I spoke about
this with the investigative journalist Douglas d'aconick, who actually interviewed
the witness who claimed to have seen Anne and Effia
in front of this hotel. I recorded this while driving
(19:05):
with Douglas, so there's a bit of background noise.
Speaker 8 (19:10):
I think it was Paul Marchal, the father of He
just spoke about something in Blankenberger with a butcher named
Eric van Damo, and so I went to Blankenberg, knocked
on his door, he opened, and he started telling me
his incredible story. For Paul Marchell, which is very important
(19:31):
his daughter. And if they went to a show in
Blankenberg in the casino, they had to take the lost
trying to place the States. But after the show, they
have been in Blankenberger for about an hour and what
his butcher said was explained was that he was in
(19:52):
trouble with his neighbor. His neighbor was a current kind
of prostitute born named Hotel Brazil. And what the butcher
told me was that it was coming and going in
that hotel of clients women of which you could divine
that they were prostitutes. But he said that evening, a
(20:12):
few days after the disappearance of alan If, I saw
the pictures in the paper and I immediately remembered that
those were the two girls I saw going into that
hotel that evening.
Speaker 5 (20:23):
I think it's yeah, in the context of.
Speaker 8 (20:27):
Neighbors having fights, you should always should be very careful
about about this kind of testimony. So later on I
discovered that on the day of the arrest of Market,
two police search his house and close to the phone
they found the notes with a phone number.
Speaker 5 (20:44):
It was the phone number of the hotel president.
Speaker 2 (20:47):
This is an important piece of information. That Douglas just shared.
Speaker 8 (20:52):
On the day of the arrest of Market two, police
search his house and close to the phone they've found
the notes the phone number.
Speaker 5 (21:01):
It was a phone number of the hotel resident.
Speaker 2 (21:04):
When da True was arrested, police found a piece of
paper near his phone at the house in Marcinelle where
the girls were held captive. On this piece of paper
was the name and telephone number of the Hotel Brazil.
These aren't the only coincidences that make this whole Hotel
Brazil connection suspicious. I mentioned that de True had an
(21:25):
acquaintance that was staying at the Hotel Brazil during the summer.
When Anne and Effia disappeared, that acquaintance, who was also
a friend of the Hotel Brazil owner, drove a car
with a license plate that's almost an exact match to
a license plate identified by a witness in Gracelonna under
the bridge where Julian and Melissa disappeared. The car was
(21:46):
a red Ford Fiesta. I interviewed ex gendarmes Jean Pierre Radon,
who worked with the special unit that was formed just
after Datrue's arrest and investigated the red car lead. At
the behest of the King's prosecutor Michel Bole.
Speaker 6 (22:06):
The prosecutor Boorles came into my office one day and
he asked me to look into finding information about a
red Ford Fiesta that could have been used for the
abduction of Julie and Melissa. I started to look into it,
and indeed, indeed there were several testimonies about a little
red car or a red Ford Fiesta seen near the
bridge where Julie and Melissa were abducted. And then I
(22:32):
stumbled upon something, and I can tell you it's a catastrophe.
I stumbled upon a letter from a doctor, the doctor ARROWI.
Shortly after the abduction of Jili and Melissa. He sent
a letter to the investigation unit in Grassolonna, where he
explained that on the day of the abduction, he noticed
(22:52):
something that seemed out of place. There was a van
and a red car on the side of the highway
very close to where the girl had disappeared. And he
remembered the first three letters of the license plate NKV,
and then he couldn't remember the rest. And he sent
this letter to the investigation unit, and I don't know
who processed it, but they marked it as non exploitable,
(23:15):
non exploitable. I'm sorry, but if someone had taken the
time to read the Othello report with the names that
were in there, there was a certain Niccolo Mazarin who
was cited in the Othello report as an accomplice of
de True.
Speaker 2 (23:29):
The Othello report that he's referring to is the report
on the operation Othello, the secret surveillance operation of De
True that started shortly after Julian Melissa disappeared. The name
he mentions, Nicolo Mazarin, was not only an accomplice of
d True, but he was also a friend of the
Hotel Brazil owner. The red car with a license plate
(23:52):
starting with NKV was recorded in the Othello report because
it had been observed visiting d' tru'z house in Charlerois.
Speaker 6 (24:01):
If someone had taken the time to look at the
cars attributed to Mazarin and his wife, they would have
found the NKV nine four seven, and that license plate
was at one of Dutruz's properties on a car that
was put up for sales, and no one made the connection.
Speaker 5 (24:19):
At the time.
Speaker 6 (24:21):
Even a rookie cop would have found this, but they didn't.
And I'm convinced that if someone would have looked at this,
they could have found Julie and Melissa alive. They were
alive at that time.
Speaker 2 (24:33):
I asked Jan Pierre Radon if they'd ever interviewed the
doctor who wrote the letter.
Speaker 6 (24:38):
They never did. I requested permission to interview him. I
made requests and requests and requests, and I was told yes,
but I never got the authorization because I needed a
judges authorization, but never got it. The witness is dead now,
the poor guy. They sabotaged the lead about the red Fiesta,
and they sabotaged others afterwards.
Speaker 2 (24:57):
Even without interviewing the doctor. Had a I already followed
the evidence, they would have found a clear connection between
the True Mazara, the NKV license plate, and the red
Ford Fiesta. You'll recall that the owner of the Hotel
Brazil was questioned by police after de True was arrested.
Else explained this in episode two.
Speaker 10 (25:18):
So eventually this bar owner, he was questioned by the police.
He was questioned the first time on the first of
October nineteen ninety six, and then one time or a
second time on the sixteenth of October. But after that
he actually vanished from the earth. So he left he
left Blankenberg. He announced to the local authorities that he
(25:41):
would go to Germany, but in Germany there was no
trace of him left.
Speaker 2 (25:46):
Both d True and Lo Lievre later admitted to abducting
Anne and Effia at the Belgian seaside. The question here
is whether or not they were helped in some way.
I believe this man from the Hotel Brazil could show
light on this question. He may not have been involved
in any way, or perhaps his friend Mazaha with the
red Ford Fiesta was involved. Unfortunately, Mazaha has since passed away.
(26:13):
So I set out to try to find a Hotel
Brazil owner, who I'll refrained from naming because I don't
want to falsely implicate anyone for something as abhorrent as
being involved with the abuse and murder of children. He
certainly isn't a saint, but his other dodgy affairs are
of no concern to us here. Our last tip was
(26:33):
that he lived in Brazil, so that's where we started.
I was able to find a local journalist named Fernanda
to help try to locate him for an interview.
Speaker 11 (26:42):
I checked the public databases and there is no trace
of him in the system here. As far as I
can tell you, We've.
Speaker 2 (26:50):
Decided not to share Fernanda's full name or exact location,
as snooping around the world of international organized crime is
dangerous business.
Speaker 11 (26:59):
I drove by the address we discussed the last time,
and it's definitely not a residence. It's like a pharmacy.
Speaker 2 (27:07):
After a lot of searching and even a drive by
at a place where we thought he might be, we
were getting nowhere, so I asked her to switch her
focus to searching for a woman who spent time at
the Hotel Brazil in Belgium before fleeing back to Brazil.
You'll recall in episode two that I spoke with a
man who described an incident involving a Brazilian woman at
(27:30):
the Hotel Brazil.
Speaker 7 (27:32):
My father came in conflicts with this person because they
found outside the front door of his house, we found
a young woman, a Brazilian woman, crying and who had
been beaten, and my father took the woman inside, and
(27:53):
it turned out that this woman had been fetched from
Brazil and she had been brought to Belgium with an
expectation that she would have work, but in reality it
was meant for prostitution, and mister had taken all documents
(28:15):
passport so that he controlled this woman. My father then
contacted the police and the police went inside the house,
found another woman and also found weapons.
Speaker 2 (28:30):
Our goal is to try to find this woman and
hopefully have her lead us to the Hotel Brazil owner.
After six months of searching, we believe we actually found
this woman thanks to the dogged work of Fernando.
Speaker 11 (28:43):
It was really hard to find her because her name
he in Brazil, is so common that made my researchers
almost impossible. I did locate a boy who seems like
being her son because the name was exactly the same.
So I decided to go to Facebook and Instagram to
(29:05):
find this boy and to try to discover if the
woman we were looking for was his mother.
Speaker 2 (29:12):
Fernando was able to contact him and confirm that he
was indeed the son of the woman we were looking for.
He verified his mother's name and that she'd spent time
in Belgium in the mid nineties.
Speaker 11 (29:24):
And then the most important question I asked him was
can you give me your mother's cell phone? And he
was like, okay, I can give you. So I was like,
oh my god. So many months in his search for
this so is it.
Speaker 2 (29:46):
This is the voice of the victim. Fernanda located. Will
withhold her name and location as she was initially afraid
to speak about this and I want to respect her privacy.
Fernanda explains what she learned through their many exchanges.
Speaker 11 (30:01):
So when she arrived in Belsion, she was thinking that
she was going to work as an anie, because that
was the promise. But once she arrived, she was talking
to a hotel. So she started to live there in
the hotel and walk there in a hotel. But one day,
also in this hotel asked her to sleep with her
(30:26):
and her husband, and she thought that maybe it's something
wrong that because I am here to work as an ani,
but I am in a hotel and right now these
crazy couple are asking me to sleep every day, and
so she told that something strange that and later other
strange situations happened, such as saved her. She keept in Belsion,
(30:51):
had to marry with Belgian and she didn't want to
get married with anybody, but she agreed to meet the guy,
but she doesn't remember unfortunately, how he's lookalike and his name.
But after all that situation, decided to get back home
(31:12):
to get back to Brazil and did not allowed her
to get back, so they took her passport. They forbidden
her to have contact with phones at this time. At
this point she started to find really strange and one
(31:35):
day she could have assessed to a phone and she
called to a place the invasion that she doesn't remember
the name. She asked for help and saw her asking
for help and just say to her that he was
going to kill her, and he was going to throw
(31:57):
her downstairs, and he grabbed her arms and really hurted her.
She was really really afraid of him, and she wanted
to get out of there as quickly as possible.
Speaker 2 (32:11):
The fact that this woman was originally afraid to speak
and wishes to remain anonymous after twenty five years speaks
volumes about this man's reputation. Fernanda shared a picture of
Mark the True with her and she said that she'd
never seen him, nor did she ever see children at
the hotel Brazil. It could all truly be a coincidence,
but to find out, I need to speak with the
(32:32):
owner of the hotel Brazil to hear his side of
the story. He didn't seem to be in Brazil, so
I refocused my search on Germany.
Speaker 5 (32:40):
H THANKI Chabalis become cutting off.
Speaker 2 (32:42):
Of This Man's name and location will remain confidential given
the nature of his work, but I have a lot
of confidence in his ability to find people.
Speaker 5 (32:53):
Size.
Speaker 2 (32:54):
He explained to me that the man we're looking for
isn't in the system in Germany, and that he'd have
to mobilize other sources to find him, and that it
wouldn't be easy. I kept searching myself in Vain and
was about to give up when I got a text
to call back my contact. He doesn't speak English and
my German isn't all that great, but we managed. He
(33:19):
explained that he had indeed found something, and according to
his info, he could give me an address, which I've
bleeped out here. He said he couldn't promise the man
was there, but that he was pretty sure he'd located him.
It would be a scoop if I could actually locate
this man. The parents of Anne and Efja, the king's
(33:39):
prosecutor Michel Bourle, and several journalists have wanted to question
him for over twenty five years. Although my chances of
actually speaking with him were low, I felt I had
to give it a try. The investigative journalist Douglas d'aconick
originally broke the story about the hotel Brazil. So I
(34:00):
invited him to join me on a trip to Germany
to find this mysterious man. Okay, they've got a lot
of car noise here, so he jumped at the occasion
and we found ourselves cruising down the Autobahn towards a
destination that will remain unnamed. So summary of this guy
is that he was a sergeant in the army.
Speaker 5 (34:21):
He was certainly.
Speaker 12 (34:24):
Involved in being a pimp, had a hotel, got accused
of human trafficking, I was arrested, was convicted of arms
imports I believe importing an illegal arm.
Speaker 2 (34:39):
And there's another point, and that's.
Speaker 12 (34:44):
The red car that was seen in Gasadonia with the
license plate that starts with NKV, and that this license
plate is the same first three letters as a license
plate that Mazara was using at that time.
Speaker 5 (34:58):
The red car is interesting because.
Speaker 8 (35:01):
A few hours before the kidnapping of Julia Minissa, there's
another someone else tries to kidnap two girls in will.
Speaker 5 (35:11):
Ye with a red car. Yeah, with a description that
doesn't fit seem to fit.
Speaker 2 (35:17):
Much or true. Douglas is talking about the other attempted
kidnapping of two girls nearby on the same day Julian
Melissa were abducted. In this case, the mother got a
good look at a man driving a red car, but
a description doesn't really match that of Mark the True.
The True has always insisted, and still insists today, that
(35:37):
he did not carry out the actual kidnapping of Julian Melissa,
but that they were brought to him. The parents of
Julian Melissa still to this day do not know how
their girls were taken or who actually abducted them.
Speaker 12 (35:54):
So I don't think, you know, I don't think he's
gonna threaten us with violence or anything, but.
Speaker 5 (36:06):
Be ready in case he does.
Speaker 12 (36:08):
Because he's a guy who has guns, we know that,
and he has a history of attacking people physically apparently
as well.
Speaker 5 (36:15):
So oh great, because he had the dangerous duns. Probably
that's where that's where I run away.
Speaker 2 (36:25):
As you've heard a lot of information about the Hotel
Brazil connection, so let me remind you, in the simplest
of terms, of why this hotel owner may have the
answers that we've been seeking and why I need to
speak with him First, when Anne and Iffia disappeared, they
were seen in front of his hotel that night. Second,
(36:47):
he had an indirect connection with Mark de True because
his friend who stayed at his hotel that summer, was
also an acquaintance of De Truz. This friend's license plate
can possibly be tied back to the disappear parents of
Julian and Melissa, therefore potentially linking the two separate abductions. Third,
you recall that when they arrested the True, they found
(37:09):
the hotel Brazil owner's name and number written on a
piece of paper next to the phone. And finally, after
being questioned by police, he disappeared and has never been
seen since. Drove all day long to surprise this guy.
He's probably not home.
Speaker 12 (37:30):
Yeah, if that's the case, we're gonna go get a
beer somewhere, which should be gonna do anyway, what you're
gonna do anyway, After a long day of driving, we
went straight to the address we had and decided to
try and make contact right away without any warning. He's
going to do a last check to make sure this
(37:50):
thing is actually recording, and it says it is.
Speaker 2 (38:00):
How does my recorder look?
Speaker 5 (38:01):
Does it?
Speaker 2 (38:02):
Is it is it popping out too much? It was
a relatively quiet neighborhood on a beautiful spring day, and
as luck would have it, he was standing outside in
front of his house as we made our way up
the driveway. Hi, my name is Matt Graves, and I
am looking for you, I believe. When I greeted him
(38:33):
in English, he answered in French, saying that he didn't
understand what I was saying. When I switched to French,
we immediately noticed his expression turned dark and that he
knew exactly why we were there. He said, Okay, get
out of here. This is private property.
Speaker 11 (38:48):
Just say.
Speaker 2 (39:01):
I told him we wanted to ask him questions about
his old friend Mazara, and he kept repeating auvoir or goodbye,
and he said, am I clear? This is private property?
Get out of here. No. I explained that we drove
a long ways to ask him questions and that we
didn't want to accuse him of anything. We just wanted
(39:23):
to hear his side of the story.
Speaker 7 (39:25):
Watte.
Speaker 2 (39:35):
He kept repeating goodbye and get out of here. So
I asked why he didn't want to talk to us.
The more I insisted, the more angry he became. He
ducked inside of his front door for a few seconds,
and I have to admit I was concerned he might
come back out with a weapon.
Speaker 11 (39:51):
Jim, Why, oh what.
Speaker 2 (39:59):
Nos your It's just explicated.
Speaker 5 (40:01):
Yes.
Speaker 11 (40:04):
No.
Speaker 2 (40:06):
He yelled loudly that he wasn't interested and said, I'm
going to tell you one last time, get.
Speaker 11 (40:11):
Out of here.
Speaker 2 (40:21):
I suggested that we could talk in the street, and
he said, do I look like a guy who's going
to meet you in the street. Do you think I'm
an idiot or what that is.
Speaker 12 (40:38):
In vain?
Speaker 2 (40:39):
I made it clear that I was there with questions
on the behalf of the parents off and he said,
I don't care. Get out of here. I told him
I wanted to tell the parents the truth, and then
I think he knows it. But there was no use
in continuing. I'm pretty sure it was about to get violent,
so we walked away. Well that didn't go so, well,
(41:02):
let's get the fuck out of here before he goes
and gets his gun.
Speaker 7 (41:04):
But I would have rather had it talk.
Speaker 8 (41:07):
But it was obvious for the first second that.
Speaker 2 (41:12):
Both Douglas and I were confident that we had just
talked face to face with the owner of the hotel. Brazil,
more than two decades after he disappeared. There was no doubt.
The first thing I did after confirming this man's whereabouts
was to send a copy of the recording to the
parents of Anne Marchal and Effie A. Lumbricks. I got
(41:32):
a WhatsApp message straight away from.
Speaker 3 (41:34):
Else Matt High. Oh my god, I have been so
curious all day long and I had to wait until
three minutes ago to listen to your tape. Well, no,
not welcoming, and as far as I'm concerned, that is personal.
It actually proves what we are thinking, that this person
(41:54):
is majorly involved in the case. Anyway, we can talk
about this whenever you want to to discuss how to proceed.
I hope you had a pretty good journey to Germany
and that anyway you had them, well a normal day
by Matt, have a nice weekend.
Speaker 5 (42:14):
We'll talk to you soon. Bye bye.
Speaker 2 (42:17):
I also reached out to the former King's prosecutor, Michel Bourlat.
He was very surprised to hear that we actually found
the owner of the hotel Brazil and suggested that if
the case ever gets reopened, his DNA profile should be
collected and compared with any unknown profiles. The challenge is
that this case is officially closed and apparently it will
(42:39):
only be reopened if a concrete new element is discovered.
But if there's one thing we've learned about the surviving victims,
the victims' families, and the citizens of Belgium, it's that
they won't simply take no for an answer. Locating the
owner of the Hotel Brazil is a good first step,
and while it might not be enough to reopen the case,
(43:01):
it surely warrants some investigative measures by authorities, like an
interview or, as Prosecutor Boulat suggested, a DNA sample. It's
my belief that the judicial authorities will never act unless
they're forced to. It's up to us to hold them accountable.
The recent breaking news about Dutch authorities requesting DNA information
(43:23):
from the true file in connection with the Tanya Grooon
case might provide additional momentum in the argument not only
to retest the evidence, but to seek new evidence. While
this project may be coming to an end, the work
isn't done. I've decided to send all of my findings
throughout this investigation, including the whereabouts of the Hotel Brazil owner,
(43:45):
with the parents of Julie LeJean, Melissa Rousseau, Anne Marschal
and Effie Lambriks, so that they can pursue this fight
for justice if they so choose. When I started this project,
my plan was simply to recount history of this incredible affair.
I never intended to find myself personally tracking down suspects
(44:07):
and having strategy meetings with the former King's prosecutor and
victims families, lawyers and DNA experts. I've become emotionally invested
in this affair in a way I didn't anticipate. My
family and friends have suggested on more than one occasion
that I should take a step back and that I've
unnecessarily put myself at risk. But of all the incredible
(44:29):
aspects of this affair that we've covered and uncovered, there's
one thing that I simply cannot let go. The blood
of an eight year old girl found on the wall
that awful dungeon in Masiinelle, mixed with the DNA of
an unidentified person. We shouldn't rest until that person is
identified and held to account. The name of that eight
(44:53):
year old girl whose blood was found on that wall
is Julie Lejeanne. I leave you with a trans relation
of a letter published by her father, Jean de Ni
Lejeune in twenty fifteen. To you, my Julie, my dear,
It's been twenty years since they've rich you away from me,
(45:17):
twenty years that you're no longer here. You'd be twenty
eight and a half today, maybe you'd be married with children.
I still see your face at eight years old and
can't imagine what you'd look like today. As I write this,
it's a painful day, just like the seven three hundred
(45:39):
other days until now. I'm still enraged with those responsible
for your disappearance, and those who cowardly let you die
in that dungeon, and also those in whom we had confidence, police, gendarmerie, magistrates.
How many times did we hear trust the professionals? We
(46:02):
didn't have a choice. I will never forgive the system.
It's not in the normal course of nature to lose
a child, and certainly not as you were lost. As
I write these lines, I wanted you to know that
although you didn't survive, others have because of the fight
(46:23):
we led and are still leading today. But at what
price the life of my daughter, My Julie, I Love You.
(46:52):
The Monstra is a production of tenderfoot TV and iHeartRadio,
hosted and executive produced by Me Matt Graves, produced by
Thomas Resimont of Bubble Sound. Donald Albright and Payne Lindsay
are executive producers on the behalf of tenderfoot TV with
producer Makeup and Vanity Set. Matt Frederick and Alex Williams
are executive producers on the behalf of iHeartRadio with producer
(47:15):
Trevor Young. Original music by Jay Ragsdale, Sound design by
Cooper Skinner and Thomas Resimont, mixed and mastered by Cooper Skinner.
Cover design by Trevor Eiler. La Monstra includes archival audio
from Sonoma, RTBF archives and CNN Archives. Special thanks to
back Media and marketing Station sixteen, Jean Savigna and the
(47:39):
teams at iHeart Radio and Tenderfoot TV. Find us on
social media at Monster Underscore pod. For more podcasts from
iHeart Radio or Tenderfoot TV, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,
or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.
The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are solely
those of the podcast author or individuals participating in the podcast,
and do not represent those of iHeartMedia, Tenderfoot TV, or
their employees. This podcast also contains subject matter which may
not be suitable for everyone. Listener discretion is advised.
Speaker 2 (00:21):
It's October twenty twenty two. While walking down the street,
I received a text message about some breaking news. The
Belgian Minister of Justice has just announced DNA comparisons with
the true file. But this request isn't about any of
the victims that we've been discussing. It's for a different case,
the nineteen ninety three disappearance of a Dutch college.
Speaker 3 (00:44):
Student oh Piba la police i le juste.
Speaker 4 (00:49):
Ma true with the Native Lance student Tanya krun Moko Schlacht.
Speaker 5 (00:54):
I found the warning. I found ninety two agistolets.
Speaker 2 (00:57):
And eighteen year old Tiny Groon disappeared during introduction week
at Mastrich University in Holland, close to the Belgian border.
Speaker 6 (01:07):
Alice is marked a true implicated in the disappearance of
a Dutch student in nineteen ninety three. The Dutch authorities
are studying this question very seriously. The young woman Tanya Groon,
disappeared in Mastricht, close to the Belgian border, in nineteen
ninety three. Dutch authorities are requesting evidence from Belgian authorities
(01:28):
related to this affair.
Speaker 2 (01:30):
Her case has gone unsolved for nearly thirty years, but
it bears striking similarities to some of Dtruz's victims. Could
this renewed interest in DNA from the d True affair
open the door to more victims and more accomplices.
Speaker 7 (01:53):
A psychopaths is somebody who understands emotions.
Speaker 3 (01:58):
And I told them it is a very exceptional that
somebody abducts two children at the same time.
Speaker 4 (02:05):
To have been the yen of it in nineteen eighty six,
but my gods, it was just a beginning.
Speaker 8 (02:12):
I think Belgium was a paralyzed for perverts in those days.
Speaker 2 (02:23):
Welcome to la monstre. I'm your host, Matt Graves. The
announcement of DNA testing in the de True case came
at the request of authorities in Holland, where Tanya Groon disappeared.
They requested DNA profiles obtained from Mark d' tru'z houses
and vehicles. It's a fratuitous development, as I've been working
(02:45):
on the DNA aspects of the de trueffair for over
a year now. I'm hopeful that this might help shake
up the otherwise dormant case file. Tanya disappeared just three
miles from the Belgian border. It was a warm summer
night on the evening of August thirty first, nineteen ninety
three when eighteen year old Tanya Groen attended a student
(03:08):
association party in the center of Maastricht. It was her
first year of university and Tanya just moved into her
new room in the nearby suburb of Gronsvelt. She spoke
with her mother at around seven thirty that evening before
riding her bike to the party, and everything seemed normal.
Fellow students who attended the party reported that nothing seemed
(03:31):
out of the ordinary when she left by bike at
around midnight, presumably to ride back to her room in Groansvelt,
about five miles away. Tanya was approximately five foot seven
with long, dark shoulder length hair, and was last seen
wearing blue jeans. Her housemates were concerned when she never
showed up the next day, but it wasn't until she
(03:54):
didn't show up at her parents' house in the north
of Holland as planned. The following day that they became alarmed.
The disappearance was particularly mysterious, as it seemed as if
she simply vanished without a trace. There was no sign
of Tanya or her bike and no clues whatsoever as
to what may have happened. This case has stumped investigators
(04:18):
for decades, and her parents have never stopped working to
find out what happened to their daughter. In twenty twenty one,
their efforts got a boost when the award winning Dutch
investigative journalist Peter da Vrees launched a crowd funded initiative
called the Golden Tip Foundation to collect money as a
reward for tips leading to the discovery of what happened
(04:40):
to Tanya. In a cruel twist of fate, Peter Davrees
was brutally murdered in broad daylight in the center of
Amsterdam on July sixth, twenty twenty one, just after walking
out of a television studio. I was working on this
podcast at the time, and it really shocked me and
the entire world for that matter, to see a highly
(05:04):
respected journalist gunned down in the capital city of a
modern Western democracy. He was a courageous man who took
on many dangerous stories, including the notorious drug gangs operating
in Holland. It's not believed that his murder had anything
to do with the investigation into Tanya's disappearance. His foundation
(05:25):
raced over a million euros to investigate the Tanya Grouon case.
Given the proximity of the disappearance to Belgium and the
circumstances of a young woman and her bike vanishing into
thin air, has led the cold case team in Holland
to investigate the possibility that the True may have been
involved in some way. Else Sreurs, who you heard from
(05:48):
in episode two, is the partner of Jean Lambrex, the
father of Effie Lambrics, who was abducted and murdered by
De True and his accomplices in nineteen ninety five. I
spoke to Else about tom case.
Speaker 9 (06:01):
The Dutch authorities thought that maybe there might be a
link to the two case as at the time of
Dania's disappearance due to was first of all not in prison.
He was very active. He was very much driving around Europe.
He went to Amsterdam, he went to Mastricht that we
(06:21):
know for sure. He went to Berlin. So that comes
with the element that Danya was riding her bike. The
bike disappeared as well, So it's exactly the same thing
that happened with Sabindaden. She was subducted and her bike
vanished as well together with her. Also during the years
(06:43):
two committed a similar crime. He abducted a girl that
was riding a bike. Also he took the bike with
the girl.
Speaker 2 (06:52):
Remember that way back in nineteen eighty five, during his
first wave of kidnappings and rapes, the True and other
accomplices bundled and her bike into their van while she
was riding down the street. The abduction of Sabine Darden
ten years later in nineteen ninety five had the exact same.
Speaker 9 (07:10):
Mo These are things that are known, and the Dutch
detectives that are working on the case thought that maybe
it was worth looking into the two case in order
to find out whether he might be implied in this crime.
Apart from that in the two case, and that is
also something that is known. There are a lot of
(07:32):
DNA profiles, There are hairs, so, in other words, biological
traces that have not been awarded to some or to
one of the victims or to one of the perpetrators.
In other words, these DNA profiles, these hairs belonged to
unknown persons. Now the Dutch authorities, if I understand correctly,
(07:56):
want to compare Danja's profile with the unknown pro files
found in the Detou case.
Speaker 2 (08:02):
The DNA in the true case is e labyrinth that
I've spent much time trying to understand. It's important to
remember that when detru Is arrested in nineteen ninety six,
DNA testing and analysis was far less sophisticated than today.
There was a lot of evidence collected and analyzed back
in the late nineties and early two thousands. ELSA and
(08:24):
I did a lot of digging through the original case
file to track down the profiles that were established.
Speaker 9 (08:30):
So in the Detoo case, there is a police report
stating the fact that twenty six unknown DNA profiles were established. So,
in other words, twenty six people left traces either in
cars belonging to Dotou or in his house, going from
(08:52):
the basement of his house to the attic up till today.
Up until today, it has not been possible to match
these unknown profiles to either victims victims we don't know about,
or even perpetrators we don't know about.
Speaker 2 (09:11):
About a year ago, I reached out to an independent
forensic DNA expert in the United States named doctor Richard
Eikelenboom to see if he could help me make sense
of what we found. Doctor Eikelenboom's company, Independent Forensic Services,
specializes in bloodstained pattern analysis, touch traces, and forensic pathology.
(09:32):
His work has led to resolution in a number of cases,
including the wrongful conviction of Tim Masters and that of
former Indiana State trooper David Kam, where doctor Eikelenboom found
touch DNA of the killer, leading to David Kam's exoneration
and the conviction of another man. He's also worked extensively
(09:52):
on other high profile cases, including Jean Benet Ramsey and
Aaron Hernandez. One of the reasons that I wanted to
elicit his help is that he's actually from Europe and
spent twelve years as a forensic scientist at the Netherlands
Forensic Institute, so he brings an interesting mix of cutting
edge US based techniques with deep experience in Europe. With
(10:15):
permission of the lone Brecks family, I shared the DNA
information that we could find in the case file, so.
Speaker 4 (10:21):
I look I looked at the reports and information you
send me the pictures, and yeah, in order to come
to better conclusions, we need the raw data. So this
is the real data structed by computers, and what's in
here these are just DNA reports. This this will give
me enough information about the DNA profiles obtained. I missed
(10:44):
the raw data. So what I add? The DNA profiles? Yeah,
you have them in an Excel filel whatever it is,
but it's a table, and what we look at is
the peak.
Speaker 2 (10:55):
Profiles from the outset. It was difficult to have a
clear view of what we have and what we don't have.
After our first meeting with doctor Eichlenboom, Jean Lombricks sent
a letter to the General Prosecutor of Liege requesting information
about the profiles.
Speaker 9 (11:11):
We basically asked. We sent two letters. The first letter
was about the DNA profiles and we wanted to know
whether they were still available to be checked. And the
answer we received to that letter was clearly not the answer.
The exact answer to the question. We got a message
(11:32):
saying that the DNA profiles were introduced in databases. The
thing is, we don't know in which databases they were introduced.
Speaker 2 (11:43):
It's so frustrating that the family of a victim can't
seem to get a straight answer to a simple question
from what we could deduce from the information included in
the case file. There are multiple unidentified profiles that were
established based on DNA collected from the truce house and vehicles.
Speaker 9 (12:02):
There is, for instance, a profile of an unknown person
called unknown number two. This trace was found inside of
the dungeon on the wall, the left wall. But the
problem is that it is with the DNA of Julie
Lezhen and that's what makes it very suspicious and that
(12:25):
troubles us.
Speaker 2 (12:26):
This unknown profile mixed with the blood of victim Julie
Legeen found on the wall of the dungeon is extremely suspicious. Again,
Doctor Richard Eichelenboom as I.
Speaker 4 (12:38):
Understood, there's at least one unknown person present in a
bloodstain of one of the victims, and of course that's
always important. If you have a donor in blood of
the victim, that can be a very incriminating piece of evidence.
And if you look at the sex part of this
DNA table, it says x y. That means that's the
(12:59):
male have an mil in this case. But you can
also see that they are missing information. So DNA parts
of this person dropped out during DNA profiling, and if
you put that in the database, you get no matches
because you didn't exactly put in the right profile. So
the more information you gain from such a profile, the better.
(13:19):
So if you use more sensitive kit, then it's possible
that certain amounts of the DNA which was were dropped
out of this unknown donor would come up and then
you're you know, okay, this profile is a little bit
different than what we thought, and that happened a lot
with cases out of two thousands. If you redo them,
you gain more information, you get a better view on
this real person. And since all the victims in this
(13:43):
case were female, young girls, you could filter those out
if you start doing white bromos only the DNA test,
which is only present in MIL subjects, So then you
get a very good look at the amount of donors
mal donors in a sample. For instance, of the problems
with John bin A Ramsey cases that you had complex
DNA mixtures with a lot of DNA's victim and then
(14:06):
likely to other donors which could be both male which
could also be male female and maybe the mother. So
if you filter the female DNA out of that with
Y chromos only DNA testing because that cannot detect female DNA,
then you left with the male donors. That gives you
a lot of information about okay. So forensically we use
(14:27):
that Y chromosome and DNA testing a.
Speaker 2 (14:29):
Lot else explains further about the unknown DNA profiles.
Speaker 9 (14:34):
Then we have an unknown profile called number three. It's
a profile that was found on a piece of a
pajama something, a piece of cloth that was found in
the attic of the house of the Twin Marxinel. It
has bloodstains on it, it has hairs on it. So
on this piece of cloth a trace is found and
(14:57):
it's determined that it is it comes from a female
human being. But this trace found in the attic has
so far not been matched to anyone.
Speaker 2 (15:08):
This unknown female blood found on pajamas could certainly be
an unidentified victim. All profiles were tested against the victims,
Michelle Martin and the true's children, so it didn't come
from any of them.
Speaker 9 (15:22):
So apart from the DNA profiles that have been established,
there are also a lot of hairs found. Hairs that
were found in cars, also in the house in several places.
These hairs are still available today, but at the time
they have been briefly investigated, but still not matched to
(15:45):
any of the victims, to any of the perpetrators and
the King's prosecutor. What did this? Well, this line of
inquiry cleared, but well, obviously the investigating magistrate didn't want
to do it and he was forced in the end,
he was forced by the Court for Appeals of Liege
(16:09):
back in two thousand and one. Anyway, the result is
still there is still no result today.
Speaker 2 (16:16):
I asked doctor Eigelenboom for his thoughts about who the
DNA profiles could belong to.
Speaker 4 (16:22):
It could be or it's even very likely that the
perpetrators left some of their hairs there. So in that sense,
given that it's much easier and also much cheaper to
do DNA profiling now, it could be useful to look
at those hairs and start testing those. Yeah, I would
certainly want to know who is the person who they
(16:43):
donated his DNA or her DNA inside the bloods in
one of the victims. That's incriminating evidence. To go for
all the forensic evidence which is still there, and then
review a number of samples already taken, but also you
could review evidence itself still there and see if you
can get better results out of that is the new
DNA kids and then using a combination of sensitive new
(17:07):
autosomal dnakeds the standard kids, but also white romosome DNA,
so that you have a much better view of these
mil donors in these samples.
Speaker 2 (17:17):
Else and Jean Lombricks sent a second letter to the
Prosecutor General in August to ask if the evidence collected
in the case still exists. They haven't yet received an
answer to this letter, but I'm hopeful that the evidence
still exists and that it could be retested. Not only
could it potentially help to find out more about other
(17:38):
missing persons from the time, like Tanya Groom, but it
might also turn up new suspects who were never brought
to justice. There are many loose ends in the true
affair that have troubled victims families for years. Some of them,
(17:59):
like DNA tests, are out of our hands, but following
leads and tracking people down are loose ends that we
may be able to tie up. Over the past several months,
I've made progress on that front. You'll remember that throughout
this podcast, starting with episode two, I talked about an
establishment called the Hotel Brazil in the seaside town of Blankenberg,
(18:21):
where Anne Marschal and Effia Lambrics attended a hypnosis show
shortly before disappearing. More than one witness claimed to have
seen Anne and Effia after the hypnosis show, either in
front of the Hotel Brazil or nearby on the same street.
The owner of this hotel and bar had been charged
with engaging in prostitution and human trafficking, and a friend
(18:45):
of the hotel and bar owner, who was also an
acquaintance of Mark de True, was staying at the Hotel
Brazil when Anne and Effiu went missing. I spoke about
this with the investigative journalist Douglas d'aconick, who actually interviewed
the witness who claimed to have seen Anne and Effia
in front of this hotel. I recorded this while driving
(19:05):
with Douglas, so there's a bit of background noise.
Speaker 8 (19:10):
I think it was Paul Marchal, the father of He
just spoke about something in Blankenberger with a butcher named
Eric van Damo, and so I went to Blankenberg, knocked
on his door, he opened, and he started telling me
his incredible story. For Paul Marchell, which is very important
(19:31):
his daughter. And if they went to a show in
Blankenberg in the casino, they had to take the lost
trying to place the States. But after the show, they
have been in Blankenberger for about an hour and what
his butcher said was explained was that he was in
(19:52):
trouble with his neighbor. His neighbor was a current kind
of prostitute born named Hotel Brazil. And what the butcher
told me was that it was coming and going in
that hotel of clients women of which you could divine
that they were prostitutes. But he said that evening, a
(20:12):
few days after the disappearance of alan If, I saw
the pictures in the paper and I immediately remembered that
those were the two girls I saw going into that
hotel that evening.
Speaker 5 (20:23):
I think it's yeah, in the context of.
Speaker 8 (20:27):
Neighbors having fights, you should always should be very careful
about about this kind of testimony. So later on I
discovered that on the day of the arrest of Market,
two police search his house and close to the phone
they found the notes with a phone number.
Speaker 5 (20:44):
It was the phone number of the hotel president.
Speaker 2 (20:47):
This is an important piece of information. That Douglas just shared.
Speaker 8 (20:52):
On the day of the arrest of Market two, police
search his house and close to the phone they've found
the notes the phone number.
Speaker 5 (21:01):
It was a phone number of the hotel resident.
Speaker 2 (21:04):
When da True was arrested, police found a piece of
paper near his phone at the house in Marcinelle where
the girls were held captive. On this piece of paper
was the name and telephone number of the Hotel Brazil.
These aren't the only coincidences that make this whole Hotel
Brazil connection suspicious. I mentioned that de True had an
(21:25):
acquaintance that was staying at the Hotel Brazil during the summer.
When Anne and Effia disappeared, that acquaintance, who was also
a friend of the Hotel Brazil owner, drove a car
with a license plate that's almost an exact match to
a license plate identified by a witness in Gracelonna under
the bridge where Julian and Melissa disappeared. The car was
(21:46):
a red Ford Fiesta. I interviewed ex gendarmes Jean Pierre Radon,
who worked with the special unit that was formed just
after Datrue's arrest and investigated the red car lead. At
the behest of the King's prosecutor Michel Bole.
Speaker 6 (22:06):
The prosecutor Boorles came into my office one day and
he asked me to look into finding information about a
red Ford Fiesta that could have been used for the
abduction of Julie and Melissa. I started to look into it,
and indeed, indeed there were several testimonies about a little
red car or a red Ford Fiesta seen near the
bridge where Julie and Melissa were abducted. And then I
(22:32):
stumbled upon something, and I can tell you it's a catastrophe.
I stumbled upon a letter from a doctor, the doctor ARROWI.
Shortly after the abduction of Jili and Melissa. He sent
a letter to the investigation unit in Grassolonna, where he
explained that on the day of the abduction, he noticed
(22:52):
something that seemed out of place. There was a van
and a red car on the side of the highway
very close to where the girl had disappeared. And he
remembered the first three letters of the license plate NKV,
and then he couldn't remember the rest. And he sent
this letter to the investigation unit, and I don't know
who processed it, but they marked it as non exploitable,
(23:15):
non exploitable. I'm sorry, but if someone had taken the
time to read the Othello report with the names that
were in there, there was a certain Niccolo Mazarin who
was cited in the Othello report as an accomplice of
de True.
Speaker 2 (23:29):
The Othello report that he's referring to is the report
on the operation Othello, the secret surveillance operation of De
True that started shortly after Julian Melissa disappeared. The name
he mentions, Nicolo Mazarin, was not only an accomplice of
d True, but he was also a friend of the
Hotel Brazil owner. The red car with a license plate
(23:52):
starting with NKV was recorded in the Othello report because
it had been observed visiting d' tru'z house in Charlerois.
Speaker 6 (24:01):
If someone had taken the time to look at the
cars attributed to Mazarin and his wife, they would have
found the NKV nine four seven, and that license plate
was at one of Dutruz's properties on a car that
was put up for sales, and no one made the connection.
Speaker 5 (24:19):
At the time.
Speaker 6 (24:21):
Even a rookie cop would have found this, but they didn't.
And I'm convinced that if someone would have looked at this,
they could have found Julie and Melissa alive. They were
alive at that time.
Speaker 2 (24:33):
I asked Jan Pierre Radon if they'd ever interviewed the
doctor who wrote the letter.
Speaker 6 (24:38):
They never did. I requested permission to interview him. I
made requests and requests and requests, and I was told yes,
but I never got the authorization because I needed a
judges authorization, but never got it. The witness is dead now,
the poor guy. They sabotaged the lead about the red Fiesta,
and they sabotaged others afterwards.
Speaker 2 (24:57):
Even without interviewing the doctor. Had a I already followed
the evidence, they would have found a clear connection between
the True Mazara, the NKV license plate, and the red
Ford Fiesta. You'll recall that the owner of the Hotel
Brazil was questioned by police after de True was arrested.
Else explained this in episode two.
Speaker 10 (25:18):
So eventually this bar owner, he was questioned by the police.
He was questioned the first time on the first of
October nineteen ninety six, and then one time or a
second time on the sixteenth of October. But after that
he actually vanished from the earth. So he left he
left Blankenberg. He announced to the local authorities that he
(25:41):
would go to Germany, but in Germany there was no
trace of him left.
Speaker 2 (25:46):
Both d True and Lo Lievre later admitted to abducting
Anne and Effia at the Belgian seaside. The question here
is whether or not they were helped in some way.
I believe this man from the Hotel Brazil could show
light on this question. He may not have been involved
in any way, or perhaps his friend Mazaha with the
red Ford Fiesta was involved. Unfortunately, Mazaha has since passed away.
(26:13):
So I set out to try to find a Hotel
Brazil owner, who I'll refrained from naming because I don't
want to falsely implicate anyone for something as abhorrent as
being involved with the abuse and murder of children. He
certainly isn't a saint, but his other dodgy affairs are
of no concern to us here. Our last tip was
(26:33):
that he lived in Brazil, so that's where we started.
I was able to find a local journalist named Fernanda
to help try to locate him for an interview.
Speaker 11 (26:42):
I checked the public databases and there is no trace
of him in the system here. As far as I
can tell you, We've.
Speaker 2 (26:50):
Decided not to share Fernanda's full name or exact location,
as snooping around the world of international organized crime is
dangerous business.
Speaker 11 (26:59):
I drove by the address we discussed the last time,
and it's definitely not a residence. It's like a pharmacy.
Speaker 2 (27:07):
After a lot of searching and even a drive by
at a place where we thought he might be, we
were getting nowhere, so I asked her to switch her
focus to searching for a woman who spent time at
the Hotel Brazil in Belgium before fleeing back to Brazil.
You'll recall in episode two that I spoke with a
man who described an incident involving a Brazilian woman at
(27:30):
the Hotel Brazil.
Speaker 7 (27:32):
My father came in conflicts with this person because they
found outside the front door of his house, we found
a young woman, a Brazilian woman, crying and who had
been beaten, and my father took the woman inside, and
(27:53):
it turned out that this woman had been fetched from
Brazil and she had been brought to Belgium with an
expectation that she would have work, but in reality it
was meant for prostitution, and mister had taken all documents
(28:15):
passport so that he controlled this woman. My father then
contacted the police and the police went inside the house,
found another woman and also found weapons.
Speaker 2 (28:30):
Our goal is to try to find this woman and
hopefully have her lead us to the Hotel Brazil owner.
After six months of searching, we believe we actually found
this woman thanks to the dogged work of Fernando.
Speaker 11 (28:43):
It was really hard to find her because her name
he in Brazil, is so common that made my researchers
almost impossible. I did locate a boy who seems like
being her son because the name was exactly the same.
So I decided to go to Facebook and Instagram to
(29:05):
find this boy and to try to discover if the
woman we were looking for was his mother.
Speaker 2 (29:12):
Fernando was able to contact him and confirm that he
was indeed the son of the woman we were looking for.
He verified his mother's name and that she'd spent time
in Belgium in the mid nineties.
Speaker 11 (29:24):
And then the most important question I asked him was
can you give me your mother's cell phone? And he
was like, okay, I can give you. So I was like,
oh my god. So many months in his search for
this so is it.
Speaker 2 (29:46):
This is the voice of the victim. Fernanda located. Will
withhold her name and location as she was initially afraid
to speak about this and I want to respect her privacy.
Fernanda explains what she learned through their many exchanges.
Speaker 11 (30:01):
So when she arrived in Belsion, she was thinking that
she was going to work as an anie, because that
was the promise. But once she arrived, she was talking
to a hotel. So she started to live there in
the hotel and walk there in a hotel. But one day,
also in this hotel asked her to sleep with her
(30:26):
and her husband, and she thought that maybe it's something
wrong that because I am here to work as an ani,
but I am in a hotel and right now these
crazy couple are asking me to sleep every day, and
so she told that something strange that and later other
strange situations happened, such as saved her. She keept in Belsion,
(30:51):
had to marry with Belgian and she didn't want to
get married with anybody, but she agreed to meet the guy,
but she doesn't remember unfortunately, how he's lookalike and his name.
But after all that situation, decided to get back home
(31:12):
to get back to Brazil and did not allowed her
to get back, so they took her passport. They forbidden
her to have contact with phones at this time. At
this point she started to find really strange and one
(31:35):
day she could have assessed to a phone and she
called to a place the invasion that she doesn't remember
the name. She asked for help and saw her asking
for help and just say to her that he was
going to kill her, and he was going to throw
(31:57):
her downstairs, and he grabbed her arms and really hurted her.
She was really really afraid of him, and she wanted
to get out of there as quickly as possible.
Speaker 2 (32:11):
The fact that this woman was originally afraid to speak
and wishes to remain anonymous after twenty five years speaks
volumes about this man's reputation. Fernanda shared a picture of
Mark the True with her and she said that she'd
never seen him, nor did she ever see children at
the hotel Brazil. It could all truly be a coincidence,
but to find out, I need to speak with the
(32:32):
owner of the hotel Brazil to hear his side of
the story. He didn't seem to be in Brazil, so
I refocused my search on Germany.
Speaker 5 (32:40):
H THANKI Chabalis become cutting off.
Speaker 2 (32:42):
Of This Man's name and location will remain confidential given
the nature of his work, but I have a lot
of confidence in his ability to find people.
Speaker 5 (32:53):
Size.
Speaker 2 (32:54):
He explained to me that the man we're looking for
isn't in the system in Germany, and that he'd have
to mobilize other sources to find him, and that it
wouldn't be easy. I kept searching myself in Vain and
was about to give up when I got a text
to call back my contact. He doesn't speak English and
my German isn't all that great, but we managed. He
(33:19):
explained that he had indeed found something, and according to
his info, he could give me an address, which I've
bleeped out here. He said he couldn't promise the man
was there, but that he was pretty sure he'd located him.
It would be a scoop if I could actually locate
this man. The parents of Anne and Efja, the king's
(33:39):
prosecutor Michel Bourle, and several journalists have wanted to question
him for over twenty five years. Although my chances of
actually speaking with him were low, I felt I had
to give it a try. The investigative journalist Douglas d'aconick
originally broke the story about the hotel Brazil. So I
(34:00):
invited him to join me on a trip to Germany
to find this mysterious man. Okay, they've got a lot
of car noise here, so he jumped at the occasion
and we found ourselves cruising down the Autobahn towards a
destination that will remain unnamed. So summary of this guy
is that he was a sergeant in the army.
Speaker 5 (34:21):
He was certainly.
Speaker 12 (34:24):
Involved in being a pimp, had a hotel, got accused
of human trafficking, I was arrested, was convicted of arms
imports I believe importing an illegal arm.
Speaker 2 (34:39):
And there's another point, and that's.
Speaker 12 (34:44):
The red car that was seen in Gasadonia with the
license plate that starts with NKV, and that this license
plate is the same first three letters as a license
plate that Mazara was using at that time.
Speaker 5 (34:58):
The red car is interesting because.
Speaker 8 (35:01):
A few hours before the kidnapping of Julia Minissa, there's
another someone else tries to kidnap two girls in will.
Speaker 5 (35:11):
Ye with a red car. Yeah, with a description that
doesn't fit seem to fit.
Speaker 2 (35:17):
Much or true. Douglas is talking about the other attempted
kidnapping of two girls nearby on the same day Julian
Melissa were abducted. In this case, the mother got a
good look at a man driving a red car, but
a description doesn't really match that of Mark the True.
The True has always insisted, and still insists today, that
(35:37):
he did not carry out the actual kidnapping of Julian Melissa,
but that they were brought to him. The parents of
Julian Melissa still to this day do not know how
their girls were taken or who actually abducted them.
Speaker 12 (35:54):
So I don't think, you know, I don't think he's
gonna threaten us with violence or anything, but.
Speaker 5 (36:06):
Be ready in case he does.
Speaker 12 (36:08):
Because he's a guy who has guns, we know that,
and he has a history of attacking people physically apparently
as well.
Speaker 5 (36:15):
So oh great, because he had the dangerous duns. Probably
that's where that's where I run away.
Speaker 2 (36:25):
As you've heard a lot of information about the Hotel
Brazil connection, so let me remind you, in the simplest
of terms, of why this hotel owner may have the
answers that we've been seeking and why I need to
speak with him First, when Anne and Iffia disappeared, they
were seen in front of his hotel that night. Second,
(36:47):
he had an indirect connection with Mark de True because
his friend who stayed at his hotel that summer, was
also an acquaintance of De Truz. This friend's license plate
can possibly be tied back to the disappear parents of
Julian and Melissa, therefore potentially linking the two separate abductions. Third,
you recall that when they arrested the True, they found
(37:09):
the hotel Brazil owner's name and number written on a
piece of paper next to the phone. And finally, after
being questioned by police, he disappeared and has never been
seen since. Drove all day long to surprise this guy.
He's probably not home.
Speaker 12 (37:30):
Yeah, if that's the case, we're gonna go get a
beer somewhere, which should be gonna do anyway, what you're
gonna do anyway, After a long day of driving, we
went straight to the address we had and decided to
try and make contact right away without any warning. He's
going to do a last check to make sure this
(37:50):
thing is actually recording, and it says it is.
Speaker 2 (38:00):
How does my recorder look?
Speaker 5 (38:01):
Does it?
Speaker 2 (38:02):
Is it is it popping out too much? It was
a relatively quiet neighborhood on a beautiful spring day, and
as luck would have it, he was standing outside in
front of his house as we made our way up
the driveway. Hi, my name is Matt Graves, and I
am looking for you, I believe. When I greeted him
(38:33):
in English, he answered in French, saying that he didn't
understand what I was saying. When I switched to French,
we immediately noticed his expression turned dark and that he
knew exactly why we were there. He said, Okay, get
out of here. This is private property.
Speaker 11 (38:48):
Just say.
Speaker 2 (39:01):
I told him we wanted to ask him questions about
his old friend Mazara, and he kept repeating auvoir or goodbye,
and he said, am I clear? This is private property?
Get out of here. No. I explained that we drove
a long ways to ask him questions and that we
didn't want to accuse him of anything. We just wanted
(39:23):
to hear his side of the story.
Speaker 7 (39:25):
Watte.
Speaker 2 (39:35):
He kept repeating goodbye and get out of here. So
I asked why he didn't want to talk to us.
The more I insisted, the more angry he became. He
ducked inside of his front door for a few seconds,
and I have to admit I was concerned he might
come back out with a weapon.
Speaker 11 (39:51):
Jim, Why, oh what.
Speaker 2 (39:59):
Nos your It's just explicated.
Speaker 5 (40:01):
Yes.
Speaker 11 (40:04):
No.
Speaker 2 (40:06):
He yelled loudly that he wasn't interested and said, I'm
going to tell you one last time, get.
Speaker 11 (40:11):
Out of here.
Speaker 2 (40:21):
I suggested that we could talk in the street, and
he said, do I look like a guy who's going
to meet you in the street. Do you think I'm
an idiot or what that is.
Speaker 12 (40:38):
In vain?
Speaker 2 (40:39):
I made it clear that I was there with questions
on the behalf of the parents off and he said,
I don't care. Get out of here. I told him
I wanted to tell the parents the truth, and then
I think he knows it. But there was no use
in continuing. I'm pretty sure it was about to get violent,
so we walked away. Well that didn't go so, well,
(41:02):
let's get the fuck out of here before he goes
and gets his gun.
Speaker 7 (41:04):
But I would have rather had it talk.
Speaker 8 (41:07):
But it was obvious for the first second that.
Speaker 2 (41:12):
Both Douglas and I were confident that we had just
talked face to face with the owner of the hotel. Brazil,
more than two decades after he disappeared. There was no doubt.
The first thing I did after confirming this man's whereabouts
was to send a copy of the recording to the
parents of Anne Marchal and Effie A. Lumbricks. I got
(41:32):
a WhatsApp message straight away from.
Speaker 3 (41:34):
Else Matt High. Oh my god, I have been so
curious all day long and I had to wait until
three minutes ago to listen to your tape. Well, no,
not welcoming, and as far as I'm concerned, that is personal.
It actually proves what we are thinking, that this person
(41:54):
is majorly involved in the case. Anyway, we can talk
about this whenever you want to to discuss how to proceed.
I hope you had a pretty good journey to Germany
and that anyway you had them, well a normal day
by Matt, have a nice weekend.
Speaker 5 (42:14):
We'll talk to you soon. Bye bye.
Speaker 2 (42:17):
I also reached out to the former King's prosecutor, Michel Bourlat.
He was very surprised to hear that we actually found
the owner of the hotel Brazil and suggested that if
the case ever gets reopened, his DNA profile should be
collected and compared with any unknown profiles. The challenge is
that this case is officially closed and apparently it will
(42:39):
only be reopened if a concrete new element is discovered.
But if there's one thing we've learned about the surviving victims,
the victims' families, and the citizens of Belgium, it's that
they won't simply take no for an answer. Locating the
owner of the Hotel Brazil is a good first step,
and while it might not be enough to reopen the case,
(43:01):
it surely warrants some investigative measures by authorities, like an
interview or, as Prosecutor Boulat suggested, a DNA sample. It's
my belief that the judicial authorities will never act unless
they're forced to. It's up to us to hold them accountable.
The recent breaking news about Dutch authorities requesting DNA information
(43:23):
from the true file in connection with the Tanya Grooon
case might provide additional momentum in the argument not only
to retest the evidence, but to seek new evidence. While
this project may be coming to an end, the work
isn't done. I've decided to send all of my findings
throughout this investigation, including the whereabouts of the Hotel Brazil owner,
(43:45):
with the parents of Julie LeJean, Melissa Rousseau, Anne Marschal
and Effie Lambriks, so that they can pursue this fight
for justice if they so choose. When I started this project,
my plan was simply to recount history of this incredible affair.
I never intended to find myself personally tracking down suspects
(44:07):
and having strategy meetings with the former King's prosecutor and
victims families, lawyers and DNA experts. I've become emotionally invested
in this affair in a way I didn't anticipate. My
family and friends have suggested on more than one occasion
that I should take a step back and that I've
unnecessarily put myself at risk. But of all the incredible
(44:29):
aspects of this affair that we've covered and uncovered, there's
one thing that I simply cannot let go. The blood
of an eight year old girl found on the wall
that awful dungeon in Masiinelle, mixed with the DNA of
an unidentified person. We shouldn't rest until that person is
identified and held to account. The name of that eight
(44:53):
year old girl whose blood was found on that wall
is Julie Lejeanne. I leave you with a trans relation
of a letter published by her father, Jean de Ni
Lejeune in twenty fifteen. To you, my Julie, my dear,
It's been twenty years since they've rich you away from me,
(45:17):
twenty years that you're no longer here. You'd be twenty
eight and a half today, maybe you'd be married with children.
I still see your face at eight years old and
can't imagine what you'd look like today. As I write this,
it's a painful day, just like the seven three hundred
(45:39):
other days until now. I'm still enraged with those responsible
for your disappearance, and those who cowardly let you die
in that dungeon, and also those in whom we had confidence, police, gendarmerie, magistrates.
How many times did we hear trust the professionals? We
(46:02):
didn't have a choice. I will never forgive the system.
It's not in the normal course of nature to lose
a child, and certainly not as you were lost. As
I write these lines, I wanted you to know that
although you didn't survive, others have because of the fight
(46:23):
we led and are still leading today. But at what
price the life of my daughter, My Julie, I Love You.
(46:52):
The Monstra is a production of tenderfoot TV and iHeartRadio,
hosted and executive produced by Me Matt Graves, produced by
Thomas Resimont of Bubble Sound. Donald Albright and Payne Lindsay
are executive producers on the behalf of tenderfoot TV with
producer Makeup and Vanity Set. Matt Frederick and Alex Williams
are executive producers on the behalf of iHeartRadio with producer
(47:15):
Trevor Young. Original music by Jay Ragsdale, Sound design by
Cooper Skinner and Thomas Resimont, mixed and mastered by Cooper Skinner.
Cover design by Trevor Eiler. La Monstra includes archival audio
from Sonoma, RTBF archives and CNN Archives. Special thanks to
back Media and marketing Station sixteen, Jean Savigna and the
(47:39):
teams at iHeart Radio and Tenderfoot TV. Find us on
social media at Monster Underscore pod. For more podcasts from
iHeart Radio or Tenderfoot TV, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,
or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.
Host
Matt Graves
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