May 1, 2025 • 45 mins
Marisa Thalberg has made a career out of smart pivots—and bold bets. As Chief Customer and Marketing Officer at Catalyst Brands, she now oversees some of retail’s most iconic names, including JCPenney and Brooks Brothers—brands with deep roots and fresh potential. In this dynamic conversation, Farnoosh and Marisa dive into the art of leading with both confidence and humility, the value of bringing an outsider’s perspective to long-established institutions, and why embracing the “underdog mindset” can spark real transformation. Marisa shares the lessons she’s learned from navigating across industries—from luxury beauty to fast food to mass retail—and offers an honest look at what happens when big ideas don’t land. It’s a masterclass in resilience, modern leadership, and finding clarity in complexity.
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Speaker 1 (00:07):
I do like taking on an underdog, because if you
think about an underdog who's coming from behind, there's no
sort of physics, sort of math equation where if you
do things at exactly the same speed and the same
way as someone who's ahead of you, that you're going
to catch up and surpass.
Speaker 2 (00:29):
That's our guest today Marissa Thalberg, chief customer and marketing
officer at Catalyst Brands, where she oversees a portfolio that
includes American icons like J. C. Penny and Brooks Brothers.
You may also know her from her time at Taco Bell,
where she helped turn the fast food chain into a
lifestyle brand, or from earlier roles in beauty and luxury retail.
(00:51):
Marissa has built a career on navigating change, and right
now the retail landscape is anything but static. But that's
one of the reasons we wanted to talk to her,
because while these brands are working to reclaim cultural relevance,
Marissa isn't one to back away from a challenge. In fact,
she says she likes taking on an underdog because if
you want to leap ahead, you can't just run the
(01:13):
same race as everyone else. Today's show is a masterclass
in resilience, modern leadership, and finding clarity and complexity. I'm
furnished to Rabi and this is leading by example executives
making an impact. Marissa Thalberg, Welcome to Leading by Example.
I know it's a busy time for you, and we
(01:34):
appreciate you spending some time with us.
Speaker 3 (01:36):
Happy to be here, Thanks for having me.
Speaker 2 (01:38):
Let's just start with a little bit of what's happening
in the world in the news. How is all this
uncertainty impacting your day to day and some of your
leadership right now? I am sure it's, as they say, unprecedented,
But is anything ever unprecedented?
Speaker 1 (01:51):
Is anything ever precedent? Is really the question is there
such a thing? I mean, it feels like have we
ever really had a dull moment that point in business
and life? And certainly it doesn't feel that way, especially
having had a lot of now time in various forms
of retail and the pressure of that. So the economic
(02:14):
decision making right now or environment has definitely put a
whole set of uncertainty, fear, confusion, and real concerns about
implications too.
Speaker 3 (02:24):
How to run a business right now with just.
Speaker 1 (02:26):
A whole set of new curve balls shall we say,
but you have to take a mindset as a leader
since well, I want to generalize this to leadership versus
the specifics of the business.
Speaker 3 (02:37):
That is life.
Speaker 1 (02:39):
There's always going to be curveballs, and I've tried to
teach my own daughters this that if I've learned anything
in my career, the hardest thing, but probably the most
important thing, has been resilience. And it has been shown
through social science to be the number one characteristic that
drives success. Not socioeconomic bad, not educational background.
Speaker 3 (03:02):
But if you have grit, as.
Speaker 1 (03:03):
Angela Duckworth famously called it, or resilience, that really matters.
And so how do you, as a leader indoctrinate your
team and build that into your culture without creating chaos,
Without creating panic?
Speaker 3 (03:17):
My leadership style is to be real about it.
Speaker 1 (03:19):
I really don't like when leaders have made me feel
like they're infantilizing you. Of course, it doesn't mean everyone
needs to know everything at all times. But trust comes
out of authenticity. And that's true for me as a
marketer and how I build a relationship with consumers. It's
also true for me as a leader and how I
(03:40):
build relationships with teams and colleagues.
Speaker 2 (03:44):
Sounds like in some ways you might be looking at
what's happening right now as an opportunity to cultivate that grit.
That is something that I don't think you're necessarily born with.
And you have really proven to be very good at pivots.
You've gone from beauty to re tale to fast food.
I was thinking of what would be a fun like
alliterated poetry to that, like from tool kids to touch
(04:07):
ups to supreme Tacos, so a vast range of industries.
I'm curious, though, is there one or a notable common
theme that you have found stays true for marketing within
these industries?
Speaker 3 (04:24):
Oh?
Speaker 1 (04:24):
Definitely, And for me that's been the fun lesson in
all of it that I now try to impart to
other people.
Speaker 3 (04:31):
It was, in a way a self taught lesson.
Speaker 1 (04:33):
I mean, it seemed crazy to people when I went
from luxury beauty to fast food, and it felt a
little crazy to me. The interesting thing was I was
so preoccupied with what felt a lot scarier, which was
disrupting and uprooting my family.
Speaker 3 (04:49):
We were lifelong New Yorkers.
Speaker 1 (04:51):
That was our consistency, and the move to Taco Bell
also meant a geographic move to California. So in some ways,
because that that was so scary to me in terms
of what it meant for my family, that I actually
didn't fixate as much on oh my god, how am
I going to do this?
Speaker 3 (05:09):
Like what do I know about QSR?
Speaker 1 (05:10):
And the answer was I didn't know anything about QSR
going into it. So it was humbling, but also a
learning opportunity of how do you come in as a
leader to an environment that's new and whether it's always
as drastic as that, there's always newness, so you have
to be, even as a leader, humble, And I don't
(05:33):
think that's a word that we associate often with leadership.
We think of leaders as you're there because you're expert
and you're confident. But I actually think it's the dichotomy
of humility and confidence that serves modern leaders well because
the world is such that none of us are masters
of everything, none of us. And what the advantage of
(05:56):
being an outsider, a newcomer is is it gives you
this opportunity to look at us a situation with fresh
eyes and see a situation differently than someone who's been
in it for so long that you lose that sort
of new b perspective. So I've said, that's a limited
time only gift those fresh eyes. Once you're on the
inside for a while, of course, you lose that and
(06:16):
you trade it for more institutional knowledge. So I have
really tried to take these lessons that I've realized that
I've cultivated for myself in making these leaps and thinking
about what it means for all of us and what
we can all take from it, And that's definitely one
of them.
Speaker 2 (06:35):
I really like what you're saying about giving yourself permission
to be humble and admit what you don't know, because
I don't think that's always it's not allow, you know.
I hear about friends with skepticism. There's, oh, this new
leader's coming in. They don't know anything about financial services,
they used to work in sports, as like, give them
(06:56):
some time.
Speaker 3 (06:57):
What is it about our culture?
Speaker 2 (06:58):
I mean, it's a little bit of a challenge what
you're saying, to be able to demonstrate that you're still
learning even when you're at a position of top leadership.
Have you ever experienced pushback? Have you ever walked into
a room where you're the newbie?
Speaker 3 (07:13):
Of course?
Speaker 2 (07:14):
Yeah, And how do you navigate that because I think
that it sounds great to be able to do that,
but in practice can feel like there is resistance to that.
Speaker 1 (07:23):
Well, it's very hard to make blanket statements because things
are situational and contextual. I can say all of these
things and they're real and they're meaningful, and you wind
up in an environment with a certain amount of toxicity
or bad people and none of these things apply. Sometimes
(07:43):
situations do not create the conditions for success, and that's
also a very hard lesson to learn and often a
painful one. And if you put yourself out there enough,
inevitably you might find yourself in one of those situations
along the way, and that's where the resilience part comes in.
But putting that kind of situation aside, I actually believe
(08:05):
that what we're talking about are kind of two sides
of a coin of why do those things happen? Fear
and what's the antidote to that is transparency, which builds trust.
So that to me, is the way to do it. Listen,
if you are not confident as a leader, that's going
to get exposed. So if you're only humble, if you're
(08:27):
only asking questions, if you're not contributing, then obviously the
equation is way way off. But if you're coming with
the right bigger picture thinking as a leader, or the vision,
the strategy, the ideas, the upside, but also saying, you know,
explain to me how this works because I don't know
or have we ever considered doing it that way or honestly,
(08:48):
I don't know the answer to that. I'm going to
get back to I'm going to learn it. I think
that actually is confidence of building, not confidence diminishing, because
that means when you do say you know something, I'm
going to believe you because you've shown that you're not
just trying to cover it up or posture, always have
(09:10):
all the answers. That is where the interesting dynamic of
where do we find trust and without trying to make
a larger political statement, we've seen part of the erosion
in trust in civic and governmental leaders is we don't
really believe them most of the time. They might have
the confidence, but do they have the trust. No, because
(09:33):
just because you're confident, if you're not credible, if you're
not showing oh I don't know this or I do
know this, or we're going to find a way that
extends to corporate and business trust too, and frankly trust
and just we as human beings and how we interact
in the world right.
Speaker 2 (09:48):
Honesty, transparency builds trust and for better or words, it's
something that is a standout these days, and doubling down
on that can go a very long way.
Speaker 3 (09:58):
I want to get.
Speaker 2 (09:58):
Into your career understanding the inner workings of being a
chief marketing officer, Marissa. Maybe we could start with having
you just sort of explain how you understand your role,
what you feel to be your biggest mandate in this
role as chief marketing officer.
Speaker 3 (10:16):
Yeah. What I love in my.
Speaker 1 (10:17):
Current role is the title is chief customer and marketing officer,
which look, titles are titles, so I only take so
much meaning out of it. But what I do think
is important about that is it's a dueling of saying
you actually are the leader who has to feel a
certain definitive ownership of the customer, of the consumer and
(10:39):
understanding them and building the right relationship and of course
thinking about how that all ties to business goals. And
for me, that's the perfect confluence of call it marketing,
brand communications, all those functions which I feel are very
much a part of my world all ties to making
people feel and behave and do things in a way
(11:03):
that's favorable and building a relationship that enables that. So that,
to me is a really nice way of talking about
what marketing is. A lot of people are going to
give you a definition that is based on the functional
and the tactical parts of it, But when you strip
it down, we're storytellers. We're storytellers, and we're telling in
(11:26):
a way that makes you understand something differently, makes you informed,
makes you care, makes you excited, makes you feel something.
I mean like, I feel like our world has become
so jargony and so technical that having a competency and
all that is critical to be able to do the
craft of it well in the modern world. But stripping
(11:48):
down to what is this role meant to do? That
for me is as good of definition as Eddie.
Speaker 2 (11:53):
Did you decide that that you wanted to add customer
into the title? Did that pre date you? How did
that come about.
Speaker 1 (12:00):
Me? And as we were forming this role, especially in
the context of now having created this merger so it's
a multi brand organization, and thinking about what that meant
and I actually, to be honest, had some real dialogue
with my boss, our CEO on what we should call it,
(12:21):
and I like the word growth, and that was probably
the only other debate. And these are all tricky titles
in the sense that does any one person own growth?
And in a way the right answer should be everyone ow,
it's that responsibility for growth. But the specificity and the
appropriateness of customer was something we both agreed made a
(12:42):
lot of sense and had been in that title before,
so I quite like it. Thinking of the customer, what's
working right now in terms of connecting with customers? Is
there an era right now that we're in when it
comes to the best sort of marketing strategies tactics. You say,
we live in a very diverse world, but it's also
very scattered, you know, in terms of connecting with the customer.
Speaker 3 (13:05):
It used to be like three avenues. Now there's three hundred.
Speaker 1 (13:08):
Exactly, tell me how you're doing it.
Speaker 3 (13:10):
It's a lot harder.
Speaker 1 (13:11):
Yeah, for me, it is about an orchestration of different things.
If only were as simple as just do this one
thing and that's how it works. Of course, it's not
a new insight to say we're living in a world
of complexity and fragmented attention and how you reach a
customer is unquestionably so much harder than it's ever been before.
(13:32):
It's also more opportunities to do it. So you think
about what you think of as traditional advertising channels. There's
still an absolute role for those, but then brands have
become publishers too, in that you have a website, you
have your own channels, you have emailed so you're publishing
to a content of an audience, and they call that
(13:52):
owned marketing. And then there's the earn part, which I've
always had maybe a disproportionate appreciation for, which is how
do you get others doing your storytelling for you? And
the earlier definition of that was pr in terms of
thinking about media outlets writing about you, But now, of
course social media has changed and expanded what that can be,
(14:15):
and for me, it's thinking about all of those things
and then thinking about different customers and where they are
in their journey. Are they an existing customer, Well, you're
going to be able to talk to that person very
differently than someone who isn't your customer yet, So trying
to say this in a very simplified way, but again
I actually think sometimes it's important to take the complex
(14:36):
and make it simple so you can then figure out
what you want to do about the different parts. Certainly
from an industry standpoint, lots and lots and lots of
focus not inappropriately so, on the use of technology and
the ability to expand how we do that from a
you know, do you farnwoshe get a different message than
I get? And that's personalization, customization, and there's role for
(14:59):
all of that. But it's also important to remember that
those become tactics. But you still have to have the fundamentals,
a really good strategy, a really good product or proposition,
and really good insights about what problem are you trying
to solve, what opportunity you're trying to paint. So I
like to get myself grounded in that, get my team
(15:20):
grounded in that, and then hope that we have the
expertise is and the curiosity to find new ways.
Speaker 3 (15:26):
To execute that.
Speaker 2 (15:28):
When we come back, Marissa opens up about the moments
that didn't go as planned, what she learned from bets
that didn't pay off, how she balances risk with resilience,
and why she's drawn to brands with something to prove.
Speaker 1 (15:42):
I always say, strategy is choices, which means it's being
bold enough to say I'm going to do that, but
I'm not going to do these other things, and that's hard.
Sometimes we all want to try to make everyone happy
and do everything.
Speaker 3 (15:55):
We'll be right back. I'd love to.
Speaker 2 (16:06):
Highlight the Live Moss campaign at Taco Bell. You made
it cool again. Hearing you talk about these strategies, I'd
love for you to kind of bring those thoughts to
life by walking us through that brand and the sort
of reimagination of Taco Bell through that campaign.
Speaker 3 (16:24):
What was your creative process, your strategic process?
Speaker 1 (16:27):
Well, Live mos specifically was a line that predated me,
so I want to be clear that that was already there.
And one of the things that I think good leaders
do when you come into a new situation, and part
of the situation assessment is what do we want to maintain,
what do we have that's working, and then what needs
to be changed.
Speaker 3 (16:45):
So job one is.
Speaker 1 (16:47):
Actually understanding what the problem or opportunity is and then
figuring out your game plan. And that's very much how
I approach coming into Taco Bell again as an outsider
to the industry, big learning curve, but it also gave
me the ability to just sort of assess it holistically
and without baggage and really look at what was happening
(17:09):
in culture. How are sensibilities around fast food? QSR is
the industry term QSR quick service restaurants. So in QSR,
what was going on? And you know what, here are
some of the realities. It was an industry with negative
transaction growth. Think about what that means.
Speaker 3 (17:26):
That means the.
Speaker 1 (17:26):
Industry as a whole. Just to even play the game,
you're fighting an uphill battle to get your sales to
be flat two year ago, and what does that mean?
And this was a few years ago, so things change.
But at the time, there was a little bit of
you know, maybe I don't want to just eat burgers
and fries all the time, Like what you didn't feel
necessarily proud going to eat fast food.
Speaker 3 (17:48):
So you're looking at that.
Speaker 1 (17:49):
But at the same time, it's brands and culture and
the value proposition was important.
Speaker 3 (17:53):
But then saying, okay, well.
Speaker 1 (17:54):
What about Taco Bell, Like there was a cult of
the brand for sure, but then a lot of cracks
in the armor in terms of being the butt of
late night comedian jokes. As you know, the brand that
makes you go to the bathroom. I mean it's funny,
but is that really funny? I mean that's not actually
a good thing. Being able to call those things out
(18:15):
with clarity and without judgment, just with clarity is to say,
let's look at this, because all that shapes where we
need to go. And for me, it very much shaped
a belief that we had not just an opportunity, but
a need to separate and elevate the brand from the
rest of QSR. And there was already, in fairness, discussion
(18:38):
about that and talking about Taco Bell as a category
of one. I just want to be really respectful of
the people that preceded me. A lot of great thinking already,
but how to maybe do that, and how to put
the brand in the context of being a culture centric
lifestyle brand and what that could open up in terms
of new ways of thinking about the.
Speaker 3 (18:59):
Brand generallying revenue.
Speaker 1 (19:01):
Distinguishing us was very much what you know, I feel
is the imprint I was able to put on it,
and it kind of pulminated in doing the Taco Bell Hotel,
which was in a way this like really cool apotheosis
of every part of the lifestyle and it sold out
in two minutes and when you think about what that
means in terms of brand that you take something so
(19:24):
ubiquitous you can go a couple miles and for a
few dollars access Taco Bell. Let's be honest that people
set up computer banks as if they were waiting to
get access to the hottest concert tickets. I kid you
not booked it and spent hundreds of dollars on airfare
and then staying at the hotel to access the experience.
(19:45):
That is, to me the business case study in that,
what does that mean and how does that spill over
in terms of expanding that cult? And that's just one
example of many, many things, but especially on a big
brand like that, it's never going to be one thing.
It's always going to be a comprehensive strategy that incorporates innovation, value,
(20:07):
honoring what's core, coming up with new ways of generating
cultural topspin, thinking differently about partnerships and collaborations. So the
fun part was getting to figure all of that out
and having an amazing team to do it with.
Speaker 2 (20:23):
I want to learn more about when you're thinking about
pivoting a brand, there are investments you have to make,
and some investments are not going to pay off when
you're kind of just sitting down for the first time
to assess the situation, what are the questions that you're
asking to get closer to the solution. You identified some
things already where like the media is portraying us in
(20:43):
this way, we don't like it and we need to
change that. And that's like one variable. But when you're
looking at all the ways that you could potentially pivot,
how do you narrow it down? I have multiple answers
as to that. Maybe give me a case study again,
because I know it's very specific to a brand.
Speaker 1 (21:02):
Yeah, I'm giving you a little bit of one for
Taco Bell that I then took that thinking with me
is coming in and creating what I think of as
an ultimate synthesis of all that stuff. Like you're just
a sponge from the consumer insights to the marketplace, to
your own observations, talking to employees, going in that case,
to restaurant.
Speaker 3 (21:21):
So your job is to synthesize that. That to me
is the first work.
Speaker 1 (21:25):
So one way of doing that and organizing that is
to start big and get smaller.
Speaker 3 (21:31):
So big is like culture, like the world at large.
Speaker 1 (21:35):
And then you get a little more narrow and say Okay,
what about specifically this industry or the category, what's happening there?
And then you get a little narrower and say the consumer.
And then at the end of the day, the business itself,
the brand itself, what's happening there? And when you start
synthesizing that. For me, when you find the tension points
(21:57):
in there, that's where you kind of folk and say
that's where I kind of have to untie that knot
and go forward. So that's probably the large view at
the almost existential view with some brands, including where I
am now, and thinking about them is just saying, are
we clear on the why?
Speaker 3 (22:17):
I said? It sounds existential, but.
Speaker 1 (22:19):
It's really fun like if you don't pull back and
get out of your own insider knowledge and say, why
do people care about this brand, this company, this product?
Do I know why they care? Or do I have
a good enough reason why they might or could care?
Speaker 3 (22:35):
Today?
Speaker 1 (22:36):
I like to think of that as the ultimate value proposition,
what's the why? And sometimes it's really clear and other
times it's not. So For me, that's what I actually
really enjoy the most is trying to find a way
forward with a brand that maybe that isn't clear, how
to make it clear, and then that becomes a strategy,
(22:59):
that becomes a choice to get everyone a line to
saying that's what we're going after.
Speaker 3 (23:05):
And I always say strategy is choices.
Speaker 1 (23:07):
Which means it's being bold enough to say I'm going
to do that, but I'm not going to do these
other things.
Speaker 3 (23:13):
And that's hard.
Speaker 1 (23:14):
Sometimes we all want to try to make everyone happy
and do everything.
Speaker 2 (23:18):
Which brings me to a question about a time of tension,
a time of when you went in big on an idea,
on an AHA and it didn't quite work, or you
didn't get buy in. Basically, what I'm asking is, Marisa,
tell me about a failure, but that was very meaningful
to you in your career and it was a lesson.
Speaker 3 (23:38):
I mean, I've had lots of things not work out.
Speaker 1 (23:41):
I think the nature of trying something new, by definition,
it hasn't been done before, so it's not predictable and
therefore there's risk. But if you don't try some things new,
it's really hard to have a different effect, and that
in and of itself is a tension of creativity as
a way of solving problems. So I think your responsibility
(24:03):
as a leader is to make sure your risks are
smart and calculated. And how do you still go forward
and try something new and swing big but de risk
So you de risk something by being able. Remember it
actually goes back to the confidence and humility thing. So
you go forward using all your best knowledge, all your
(24:24):
best resources, and you try and you stick with it.
But you also have to be humble and agile enough
to say, if something isn't working, how do I readjust?
How do I course correct or the marketplace changes? Like
we said at the very start of this conversation, you say, okay,
how do I change my gameplay? So for me, I
(24:44):
appreciate but also sort of hate the failure question because
it all depends what you consider a failure versus as
many people wiser than me have said, I don't fail
either win or I learn. I think that is a
really good mind said. You have to be willing to
learn and then adjust. So I certainly can give you
(25:06):
ideas of things I've tried that didn't work exactly the
way I wanted, But I'd like to think I haven't
had unmitigated failures because you don't let the business completely fail.
You find a way to readjust Yeah, what you're saying
at Echoes. We had Navine Jane on the show.
Speaker 2 (25:21):
He's a serial entrepreneur, and you said, one of the
biggest misconceptions people have about entrepreneurship, and I think even
people who are top of their games leaders responsible for
her teams, is that we leaders entrepreneurs, we love risk,
we are drawn to risk. And he said, no, Actually,
the successful entrepreneurs they're really good at de risking. They
aren't turned off by risk. But it's not to say
(25:44):
that they just go in blind. You know, their biggest
job is to if they know what they're doing, is
to figure out how to do the crazy wild thing
while not sinking the ship right, keeping the lights on.
Speaker 1 (25:56):
Yeah, what I've found myself just saying is recently is yesterday,
and talking about this is I realize I do like
taking on an underdog, because if you think about an
underdog who's coming from behind, there's no sort of physics
or math equation where if you do things at exactly
(26:17):
the same speed and the same way as someone who's
ahead of you, that you're going to catch up and surpass.
Speaker 3 (26:22):
So when you explain that to.
Speaker 1 (26:26):
Your organization, to your stakeholders, your colleagues, and say I'm
actually trying to de risk the chances that we're going
to keep doing this and keep not having the impact
we want to have. Like that's the classic definition of insanity.
So I feel the mandate is we have to try
things differently to have an outsize improvement and not be
(26:51):
as much of an underdog tomorrow as maybe we were today.
But that's scary, it's hard, and you want to be right.
Company wants you to be right. So it really comes
down to that sort of playing. The confidence and the
agility and the humility, those two things together become very
important because if you have no confidence, you're not going
(27:15):
to try and you're not going to do the big
things that can actually have impact. And if you're too confident,
then you might not see the signs that you need
to read that help you adjust.
Speaker 3 (27:25):
As I said, how you play. Thank you for that.
Speaker 2 (27:28):
Let's talk about catalysts. This is your latest role and
it's a portfolio of retail brands, namely JC Penny Brooks Brothers.
What excited you about this new role? Retail's tough right now,
got to say, especially since COVID, the consumer habits have changed,
manufacturing has changed. Tell us how you're thinking about this job.
Speaker 1 (27:51):
Yeah, retail's not for the faint of heart, I always say,
and being a CMO is not for the faint of heart.
Speaker 3 (27:55):
Maybe I'm a glutton for punishment.
Speaker 1 (27:57):
But for me, it was the intrigue first of taking
an over one hundred and twenty year old brand that's
an American icon that has lost some of its luster
and some of its relevance, and realizing that was the
essence of the opportunity is can you open up more
hearts and minds to consideration of J. C.
Speaker 3 (28:17):
Penny today? Not because they're nostalgic about it.
Speaker 1 (28:20):
And by the way, there was a core loyal consumer,
so there's a meaningful business there. I mean, there's over
six hundred and fifty stores across the US and Puerto Rico,
But how do you get everyone else to see it
and see it in a modern light?
Speaker 3 (28:33):
I love that as an opportunity.
Speaker 1 (28:35):
I also make a lot of my decisions based on
gut and people and relationships, and I just felt an
immediate affinity for Mark Rosen, the CEO, my colleague Michelle Loslow.
Speaker 3 (28:50):
Who at the time was chief merchandising officer.
Speaker 1 (28:52):
Now in our new portfolio, environment is heading a jcpenny
business entirely. So it was JC Penny part first and
that's what I got started with.
Speaker 3 (29:02):
But also knew almost from the beginning.
Speaker 1 (29:05):
That there was a high likelihood that we were heading
towards this merger and that that was going to turn
it into a whole different kind of opportunity, which it
has as of January. So now we're Catalyst Brands because
we have five other brands that are under our tent,
which include as you said, Brooks Brothers, but also Aeropostal,
Lucky Brand, Nautica, and Eddie Bauer. So that of course
(29:29):
makes for a different leadership challenge, and you're dealing with
new colleagues, you're creating a different kind of team. You're
figuring out where there's opportunities to create synergy, but then
where there's also the ongoing stewardship of each as an
individual brand of business. So not a dull moment, as
we said earlier, never a dull moment, but exciting too.
(29:51):
I mean, I think what I do love about retail
is for me, it comes down to parts of culture
and that's the commonality. Think beauty or fast food or retails,
they are just different dimensions of culture that resonate across
such big swaths of American life, and being able to
tap into those needs and insights and opportunities is the
(30:16):
really interesting and exciting part of the work.
Speaker 2 (30:19):
What is in the zeitgeist right now for the customer
that's shopping for clothing. I mean, I think you're right.
Retail has so much opportunity to revive. And you know,
brands that we thought, oh they're dead, now they're back.
And sometimes it's from my perspective, I don't obviously work
at these companies, but as the consumer walking through them
(30:40):
all or watching ads, it's like, oh, they got a
great Like Parker Posey is now attached to Gap and
she has a really cute dance commercial, and like you
go in the store and it's very vibrant, and you're thinking,
is this like Gaps having a new moment. Tell me
more of the science behind that, though, Like what does
it take sometimes for brands today to reclaim their place
(31:00):
in our hearts and our wallets when we're going out
there thinking about shopping for clothes.
Speaker 1 (31:05):
If that were an easy question to answer, everyone would
be doing it. So there is no singular answer for that,
and not everyone is able to do it. That's why
we see brands come and go in the marketplace, in
the landscape. Take JC Penny. I mean what's exciting is
this is a brand which has endured. Brooks Brothers the
oldest retail brand in America. Eddie Bauer, by the way,
(31:27):
also about one hundred year old brand. So I mean,
that's incredible when you think about that, because for everyone
that I name, there are many many others that I
might have grown up with that are no longer in
the landscape. So think about that for a second. The
marketplace obviously has a certain amount of call it hygiene
or revitalization of new and old and revitalized. But I
(31:51):
do think there's something really exciting about taking a brand
that has meaning, that means something to people, that has equity,
and making sure that there is a value proposition that
makes it relevant for today. That is interesting to me.
How you do that has to be individualized to all
the sets of factors that we talked about earlier. And
(32:14):
I always say it took a long time for something
to decline. It's unreasonable to think it's going to be
a five second turnaround every once in a while.
Speaker 3 (32:22):
That happens.
Speaker 1 (32:23):
But you know they say, like I've been working for
years to be an overnight success.
Speaker 3 (32:28):
That all added right.
Speaker 1 (32:29):
It's that So for me, it comes down to so
many of the things we talked about is seeing a
fresh path forward that is uniquely right for that brand
or business and then figuring out.
Speaker 3 (32:40):
How to execute to it.
Speaker 2 (32:42):
It's exciting. I love seeing when brands try new things. Yeah,
and they're not afraid to sort of go on the edge,
like whether it's a cheeky social media presence or you know,
aligning with a celebrity model that has a POV and
isn't afraid to sort of align themse with that.
Speaker 3 (33:00):
I think that's bold.
Speaker 2 (33:01):
And these days, I think going back to what you
were saying about trust and honesty, I think that carries that.
Speaker 3 (33:07):
That goes back to also what we talked about with
the customer.
Speaker 1 (33:09):
It's a relationship with either a current or potential customer,
and so you have to think about are you honoring
or potentially diminishing that relationship and not all of the
factors that can build or create that are in your control.
Things happen, but if you feel good about what you're selling,
(33:34):
you just made me to find the way to tell
that story the right way. That to me is in
a way the ultimate craft of this role, with all
then the complexity and data science and inputs and factors
that go into that, but stripping it down to what's essential,
I think it is about how do you build that
(33:56):
customer relationship.
Speaker 2 (33:59):
I understand and are an avid mentor, and you particularly
like to mentor young women professionals. Is there a piece
of advice that you find yourself giving over and over
again that is still needed despite maybe all the books,
all the podcasts, all the things that you wish maybe
you had gotten as you were starting out in your
(34:20):
career in largely male dominated industry.
Speaker 1 (34:23):
Well you might know that I found an organization a
long time ago called Executive Moms. So I feel to
this day a feer sense of advocacy for women in
the workplace and particularly moms, because I mean, we've made
a lot of progress, but in some ways we have
not made nearly enough.
Speaker 3 (34:43):
So I've spent a.
Speaker 1 (34:43):
Lot of time thinking about being a woman and also
a mom in the workplace and what that represents, and
unfortunately it's still not equoitable.
Speaker 3 (34:53):
It's just not.
Speaker 1 (34:54):
And there's so many great things about women and leadership
that frankly the whole world would be well served to embrace.
But in terms of mentorship, I always struggle when people
are like, oh, who are your mentors? Because for me,
it was never like a specific thing like this person
is my mentor. I've played a more formal mentor role
(35:16):
to some people through some formal programs informal ways, but
for me, I think it was about, over time, building
a community of people whose examples were inspirational to me,
whose voices I trusted, traditional business colleagues, and also non
traditional people who I realized where I wanted to get
(35:40):
my sense of self from, namely my mom. And I
know that's tripe, but it's true. And she was not
a corporate person at all. She was a speech fithlogist,
she worked, she didn't understand corporate. But I realized the
older I get, the more the lessons I gleaned from
her become very important part of who I am and
what kind of leader I want to be and what
kind of human I want to be. So that's for
(36:02):
me how I think about what mentorship was. As I
think about mentoring others, how do I fill maybe some
of the gaps that I had is no artifice around
the idea of mentorship, not coaching, but real conversations like
what is really going on here? What are you looking at?
How can we think about this differently? I think probably
(36:24):
that's the biggest difference for maybe what I would have
craved earlier on is being able to be like I'm
really start how do I navigate this? And having the
right people to really honestly help me with that might
have been nice.
Speaker 2 (36:37):
Like to be actually heard, you know, someone to listen
to you, as opposed to just giving you the five
principles of navigating corporate as a woman.
Speaker 1 (36:47):
Yeah, I mean just sort of feeling safe to talk
about the really hard, uncomfortable stuff like navigating difficult office politics, ambition,
decisions about taking risks.
Speaker 3 (37:00):
It feels all very fuzzy to me that earlier part.
Speaker 1 (37:02):
Of my career and who I turned to and where
I found it. But over time I feel lucky that
now I just realized there's a whole bunch of different
people I would turn to in different situations.
Speaker 3 (37:16):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (37:17):
As we part, Marissa, I'd like to ask you our
last question we ask all of our leaders on leading
by example, and it is this, what does leading by
example mean to you, You've given us so many nuggets
of wisdom throughout the hour, But to synthesize it, what
would it be? Well, this is a terrible example, the
thing of as you said that it reminded me of.
(37:40):
I was such a good student and I always had
great relationships with my teachers. But I had this one, really,
really bad teacher in high school who turned out to
have been quite notorious for having done some problematic things
that the news, shall we say.
Speaker 3 (37:56):
Oh the news, I'm going to be googling this now,
are Yeah?
Speaker 1 (38:00):
I remember he famously would say in class. But unrelated
to that, do as I say, not as I do.
And I realize that's just an absolutely terrible thing to
say as a leader. Like no, leading by example for
me is do as I do, not just what I say. So,
(38:20):
if I'm expecting you to be a risk taker, I
have to be a risk taker. If I'm expecting you
to be willing to say, hey, you know what, I
don't think this works so well, here's what I'm going
to do.
Speaker 3 (38:33):
About I have to model that behavior.
Speaker 1 (38:36):
So leading by example is actually being both the executive
and the person that you would most hope to find also,
in my opinion, like I'm not perfect by any stretch
of the imagination, and I don't pretend to be.
Speaker 3 (38:52):
And I think having a sense of.
Speaker 1 (38:54):
Humor is also something that we really need to elevate
as a value. I mean, we spend a lot of
time at work, and when I realize what gives me
joy from work, it is the social connection. It is
the sense of being part of a team and banding together.
Speaker 3 (39:12):
And if I can't.
Speaker 1 (39:12):
Laugh at myself, if I can't laugh at the absurdity
of a situation, if I can't laugh at just something
funny that happened with my colleagues, it really diminishes the
joy and the ability to take some of the pain
of the hard parts away. So that for me is
also leading by example that we can be real with
(39:34):
each other. We can be funny, we can be warm,
and we can be serious, and we can toggle between
all these different things, so long as we're all using
that as a way to galvanize ourselves even more to
do the hard work together. And if I lead well
in any dimens, I hope I'm being true to that.
(39:57):
And just even that little bit of vulnerability I think
makes people want to help each other more. And I
always try to also say, and I learned this, like
the competitions on the outside, let's try to not make
it here, and that doesn't always happen in some environments,
but the more you build a sense of we are
(40:18):
in this together, it's actually what I really love about
leading teams the most is thinking of it as team sport,
thinking about how we play together, getting people motivated and excited,
and not sugarcoating the hard parts, but also allowing us
to enjoy the good parts, because work is always going
(40:38):
to be a composition of both.
Speaker 2 (40:41):
Marissa Thalberg, thank you so much for joining us. I
really appreciated having you and meeting you. Thank you, thank
you for setting this up.
Speaker 4 (40:51):
Ryan.
Speaker 2 (40:51):
You know, I find it so fascinating how many different
industries she has worked in, and she said it herself,
you know, I don't always know what I'm walking into,
and that's part of the journey, admitting that and marrying
that though with confidence eventually right asking questions, leaning in.
Speaker 3 (41:10):
She demonstrated that balance really well.
Speaker 2 (41:13):
But it's not every day to get a leader who's like, yeah,
I don't know what I don't know.
Speaker 4 (41:17):
I just love the breadth of her experience and the
fact that she can speak to so many different brands
and different environments that she's worked in. And I really
what stuck with me in this conversation was her quote
about success being just a matter of physics, that you
can't catch up going the same speed as the person
in front of you, and the same speed and direction
as the person in front of you. I just thought
(41:39):
that was such a great visual of dealing with success
and trying to move forward and trying to develop not
just yourself but your team and as a leader, and
this idea that you really have to push to get
to that next level. I really appreciated her insight in that,
and it really lends to this kind of underdog mentality
that she talked about coming into programs that already exist.
(42:01):
She was talking about how dealing with an iconic brand
like Taco Bell and coming into a program that kind
of was already up and walking, and how she could
bring it up into a run.
Speaker 2 (42:11):
Did you know that there was a Taco Bell Hotel?
I feel like she sped through that and I really
wanted to go back and ask more about the Taco
Bell Hotel, which I don't think exists anymore.
Speaker 3 (42:20):
But it was in Palm Springs.
Speaker 4 (42:21):
I would love to stay there. I feel like it
needs to come back, so I hope someone can follow
in her footsteps.
Speaker 3 (42:28):
You liked what she.
Speaker 2 (42:29):
Said about success, which I did too, but I also
loved what she said about failure and how sometimes situations
do not create the conditions for success. And it's not
a you problem, it's an environment problem. It's a system problem.
And at that point when you realize it, it's not
to say that you have to leave, but it's your
resilience will be tested at that point and there's no
(42:51):
sort of right or wrong there. It's like you got
to just do what feels right, what is possible, try
all the things, but ultimately, if it's not working, it's
not working, and that's okay.
Speaker 3 (43:01):
You got to leave then.
Speaker 4 (43:02):
And I loved her recipe to that note about dealing
with failure and also just trying to find success. Her
recipe for success being confidence, agility, and humility, and the
humility I think is the biggest part of just having
the confidence to push forward even in the face of failure,
but also the humility in those times of great success,
understanding what got you there and being able to sustain it,
(43:25):
and I just thought that that speaks to her as
a leader, and it's something we can all learn from.
Speaker 2 (43:30):
You know, I've done so many of these interviews now, Ryan,
and I wonder how often the word humility and empathy
would have come up twenty years ago if we had
a podcast called Leading by Example. I think that the
world and all the things that it has thrown at
us has made it so now the ethos the culture
(43:51):
as a leader, it's okay to exhibit all these things
and then talk about it publicly, to say I don't
know something, to say, it's important to be cann it's
important to ask questions as a leader and not pretend
like you have all the answers.
Speaker 3 (44:06):
To be humble.
Speaker 2 (44:07):
I might be jumping to a conclusion here, but I
think this is a new ag thing, is what I'm saying.
Speaker 4 (44:12):
And I'm glad that we're in this age of transparency.
I think it really comes down to folks being able
to share their authentic experiences, even in leadership roles. That
it's not just about being the general on the battlefield
with a stoic face, but instead being a true confidant
and team member. And that's where that empathy really can
come from well listeners.
Speaker 2 (44:35):
I hope you enjoyed this episode as much as we did.
If you like what you're hearing, please follow and subscribe.
You don't miss out on any new episodes, and as always,
we want to hear your thoughts to make this the
best show possible, so please leave us a review. In
the meantime, you can find me at farnush Charabi on
Instagram and I'm always on the So Money podcast. I'll
see you next time. This podcast is a production of
(44:56):
iHeartRadio's Ruby Studio. Our executive pduce is Matt Stillo and
our supervising producer is Nikkia Swinton.
Speaker 3 (45:04):
This podcast was edited by Sierra Spreen.
I do like taking on an underdog, because if you
think about an underdog who's coming from behind, there's no
sort of physics, sort of math equation where if you
do things at exactly the same speed and the same
way as someone who's ahead of you, that you're going
to catch up and surpass.
Speaker 2 (00:29):
That's our guest today Marissa Thalberg, chief customer and marketing
officer at Catalyst Brands, where she oversees a portfolio that
includes American icons like J. C. Penny and Brooks Brothers.
You may also know her from her time at Taco Bell,
where she helped turn the fast food chain into a
lifestyle brand, or from earlier roles in beauty and luxury retail.
(00:51):
Marissa has built a career on navigating change, and right
now the retail landscape is anything but static. But that's
one of the reasons we wanted to talk to her,
because while these brands are working to reclaim cultural relevance,
Marissa isn't one to back away from a challenge. In fact,
she says she likes taking on an underdog because if
you want to leap ahead, you can't just run the
(01:13):
same race as everyone else. Today's show is a masterclass
in resilience, modern leadership, and finding clarity and complexity. I'm
furnished to Rabi and this is leading by example executives
making an impact. Marissa Thalberg, Welcome to Leading by Example.
I know it's a busy time for you, and we
(01:34):
appreciate you spending some time with us.
Speaker 3 (01:36):
Happy to be here, Thanks for having me.
Speaker 2 (01:38):
Let's just start with a little bit of what's happening
in the world in the news. How is all this
uncertainty impacting your day to day and some of your
leadership right now? I am sure it's, as they say, unprecedented,
But is anything ever unprecedented?
Speaker 1 (01:51):
Is anything ever precedent? Is really the question is there
such a thing? I mean, it feels like have we
ever really had a dull moment that point in business
and life? And certainly it doesn't feel that way, especially
having had a lot of now time in various forms
of retail and the pressure of that. So the economic
(02:14):
decision making right now or environment has definitely put a
whole set of uncertainty, fear, confusion, and real concerns about
implications too.
Speaker 3 (02:24):
How to run a business right now with just.
Speaker 1 (02:26):
A whole set of new curve balls shall we say,
but you have to take a mindset as a leader
since well, I want to generalize this to leadership versus
the specifics of the business.
Speaker 3 (02:37):
That is life.
Speaker 1 (02:39):
There's always going to be curveballs, and I've tried to
teach my own daughters this that if I've learned anything
in my career, the hardest thing, but probably the most
important thing, has been resilience. And it has been shown
through social science to be the number one characteristic that
drives success. Not socioeconomic bad, not educational background.
Speaker 3 (03:02):
But if you have grit, as.
Speaker 1 (03:03):
Angela Duckworth famously called it, or resilience, that really matters.
And so how do you, as a leader indoctrinate your
team and build that into your culture without creating chaos,
Without creating panic?
Speaker 3 (03:17):
My leadership style is to be real about it.
Speaker 1 (03:19):
I really don't like when leaders have made me feel
like they're infantilizing you. Of course, it doesn't mean everyone
needs to know everything at all times. But trust comes
out of authenticity. And that's true for me as a
marketer and how I build a relationship with consumers. It's
also true for me as a leader and how I
(03:40):
build relationships with teams and colleagues.
Speaker 2 (03:44):
Sounds like in some ways you might be looking at
what's happening right now as an opportunity to cultivate that grit.
That is something that I don't think you're necessarily born with.
And you have really proven to be very good at pivots.
You've gone from beauty to re tale to fast food.
I was thinking of what would be a fun like
alliterated poetry to that, like from tool kids to touch
(04:07):
ups to supreme Tacos, so a vast range of industries.
I'm curious, though, is there one or a notable common
theme that you have found stays true for marketing within
these industries?
Speaker 3 (04:24):
Oh?
Speaker 1 (04:24):
Definitely, And for me that's been the fun lesson in
all of it that I now try to impart to
other people.
Speaker 3 (04:31):
It was, in a way a self taught lesson.
Speaker 1 (04:33):
I mean, it seemed crazy to people when I went
from luxury beauty to fast food, and it felt a
little crazy to me. The interesting thing was I was
so preoccupied with what felt a lot scarier, which was
disrupting and uprooting my family.
Speaker 3 (04:49):
We were lifelong New Yorkers.
Speaker 1 (04:51):
That was our consistency, and the move to Taco Bell
also meant a geographic move to California. So in some ways,
because that that was so scary to me in terms
of what it meant for my family, that I actually
didn't fixate as much on oh my god, how am
I going to do this?
Speaker 3 (05:09):
Like what do I know about QSR?
Speaker 1 (05:10):
And the answer was I didn't know anything about QSR
going into it. So it was humbling, but also a
learning opportunity of how do you come in as a
leader to an environment that's new and whether it's always
as drastic as that, there's always newness, so you have
to be, even as a leader, humble, And I don't
(05:33):
think that's a word that we associate often with leadership.
We think of leaders as you're there because you're expert
and you're confident. But I actually think it's the dichotomy
of humility and confidence that serves modern leaders well because
the world is such that none of us are masters
of everything, none of us. And what the advantage of
(05:56):
being an outsider, a newcomer is is it gives you
this opportunity to look at us a situation with fresh
eyes and see a situation differently than someone who's been
in it for so long that you lose that sort
of new b perspective. So I've said, that's a limited
time only gift those fresh eyes. Once you're on the
inside for a while, of course, you lose that and
(06:16):
you trade it for more institutional knowledge. So I have
really tried to take these lessons that I've realized that
I've cultivated for myself in making these leaps and thinking
about what it means for all of us and what
we can all take from it, And that's definitely one
of them.
Speaker 2 (06:35):
I really like what you're saying about giving yourself permission
to be humble and admit what you don't know, because
I don't think that's always it's not allow, you know.
I hear about friends with skepticism. There's, oh, this new
leader's coming in. They don't know anything about financial services,
they used to work in sports, as like, give them
(06:56):
some time.
Speaker 3 (06:57):
What is it about our culture?
Speaker 2 (06:58):
I mean, it's a little bit of a challenge what
you're saying, to be able to demonstrate that you're still
learning even when you're at a position of top leadership.
Have you ever experienced pushback? Have you ever walked into
a room where you're the newbie?
Speaker 3 (07:13):
Of course?
Speaker 2 (07:14):
Yeah, And how do you navigate that because I think
that it sounds great to be able to do that,
but in practice can feel like there is resistance to that.
Speaker 1 (07:23):
Well, it's very hard to make blanket statements because things
are situational and contextual. I can say all of these
things and they're real and they're meaningful, and you wind
up in an environment with a certain amount of toxicity
or bad people and none of these things apply. Sometimes
(07:43):
situations do not create the conditions for success, and that's
also a very hard lesson to learn and often a
painful one. And if you put yourself out there enough,
inevitably you might find yourself in one of those situations
along the way, and that's where the resilience part comes in.
But putting that kind of situation aside, I actually believe
(08:05):
that what we're talking about are kind of two sides
of a coin of why do those things happen? Fear
and what's the antidote to that is transparency, which builds trust.
So that to me, is the way to do it. Listen,
if you are not confident as a leader, that's going
to get exposed. So if you're only humble, if you're
(08:27):
only asking questions, if you're not contributing, then obviously the
equation is way way off. But if you're coming with
the right bigger picture thinking as a leader, or the vision,
the strategy, the ideas, the upside, but also saying, you know,
explain to me how this works because I don't know
or have we ever considered doing it that way or honestly,
(08:48):
I don't know the answer to that. I'm going to
get back to I'm going to learn it. I think
that actually is confidence of building, not confidence diminishing, because
that means when you do say you know something, I'm
going to believe you because you've shown that you're not
just trying to cover it up or posture, always have
(09:10):
all the answers. That is where the interesting dynamic of
where do we find trust and without trying to make
a larger political statement, we've seen part of the erosion
in trust in civic and governmental leaders is we don't
really believe them most of the time. They might have
the confidence, but do they have the trust. No, because
(09:33):
just because you're confident, if you're not credible, if you're
not showing oh I don't know this or I do
know this, or we're going to find a way that
extends to corporate and business trust too, and frankly trust
and just we as human beings and how we interact
in the world right.
Speaker 2 (09:48):
Honesty, transparency builds trust and for better or words, it's
something that is a standout these days, and doubling down
on that can go a very long way.
Speaker 3 (09:58):
I want to get.
Speaker 2 (09:58):
Into your career understanding the inner workings of being a
chief marketing officer, Marissa. Maybe we could start with having
you just sort of explain how you understand your role,
what you feel to be your biggest mandate in this
role as chief marketing officer.
Speaker 3 (10:16):
Yeah. What I love in my.
Speaker 1 (10:17):
Current role is the title is chief customer and marketing officer,
which look, titles are titles, so I only take so
much meaning out of it. But what I do think
is important about that is it's a dueling of saying
you actually are the leader who has to feel a
certain definitive ownership of the customer, of the consumer and
(10:39):
understanding them and building the right relationship and of course
thinking about how that all ties to business goals. And
for me, that's the perfect confluence of call it marketing,
brand communications, all those functions which I feel are very
much a part of my world all ties to making
people feel and behave and do things in a way
(11:03):
that's favorable and building a relationship that enables that. So that,
to me is a really nice way of talking about
what marketing is. A lot of people are going to
give you a definition that is based on the functional
and the tactical parts of it, But when you strip
it down, we're storytellers. We're storytellers, and we're telling in
(11:26):
a way that makes you understand something differently, makes you informed,
makes you care, makes you excited, makes you feel something.
I mean like, I feel like our world has become
so jargony and so technical that having a competency and
all that is critical to be able to do the
craft of it well in the modern world. But stripping
(11:48):
down to what is this role meant to do? That
for me is as good of definition as Eddie.
Speaker 2 (11:53):
Did you decide that that you wanted to add customer
into the title? Did that pre date you? How did
that come about.
Speaker 1 (12:00):
Me? And as we were forming this role, especially in
the context of now having created this merger so it's
a multi brand organization, and thinking about what that meant
and I actually, to be honest, had some real dialogue
with my boss, our CEO on what we should call it,
(12:21):
and I like the word growth, and that was probably
the only other debate. And these are all tricky titles
in the sense that does any one person own growth?
And in a way the right answer should be everyone ow,
it's that responsibility for growth. But the specificity and the
appropriateness of customer was something we both agreed made a
(12:42):
lot of sense and had been in that title before,
so I quite like it. Thinking of the customer, what's
working right now in terms of connecting with customers? Is
there an era right now that we're in when it
comes to the best sort of marketing strategies tactics. You say,
we live in a very diverse world, but it's also
very scattered, you know, in terms of connecting with the customer.
Speaker 3 (13:05):
It used to be like three avenues. Now there's three hundred.
Speaker 1 (13:08):
Exactly, tell me how you're doing it.
Speaker 3 (13:10):
It's a lot harder.
Speaker 1 (13:11):
Yeah, for me, it is about an orchestration of different things.
If only were as simple as just do this one
thing and that's how it works. Of course, it's not
a new insight to say we're living in a world
of complexity and fragmented attention and how you reach a
customer is unquestionably so much harder than it's ever been before.
(13:32):
It's also more opportunities to do it. So you think
about what you think of as traditional advertising channels. There's
still an absolute role for those, but then brands have
become publishers too, in that you have a website, you
have your own channels, you have emailed so you're publishing
to a content of an audience, and they call that
(13:52):
owned marketing. And then there's the earn part, which I've
always had maybe a disproportionate appreciation for, which is how
do you get others doing your storytelling for you? And
the earlier definition of that was pr in terms of
thinking about media outlets writing about you, But now, of
course social media has changed and expanded what that can be,
(14:15):
and for me, it's thinking about all of those things
and then thinking about different customers and where they are
in their journey. Are they an existing customer, Well, you're
going to be able to talk to that person very
differently than someone who isn't your customer yet, So trying
to say this in a very simplified way, but again
I actually think sometimes it's important to take the complex
(14:36):
and make it simple so you can then figure out
what you want to do about the different parts. Certainly
from an industry standpoint, lots and lots and lots of
focus not inappropriately so, on the use of technology and
the ability to expand how we do that from a
you know, do you farnwoshe get a different message than
I get? And that's personalization, customization, and there's role for
(14:59):
all of that. But it's also important to remember that
those become tactics. But you still have to have the fundamentals,
a really good strategy, a really good product or proposition,
and really good insights about what problem are you trying
to solve, what opportunity you're trying to paint. So I
like to get myself grounded in that, get my team
(15:20):
grounded in that, and then hope that we have the
expertise is and the curiosity to find new ways.
Speaker 3 (15:26):
To execute that.
Speaker 2 (15:28):
When we come back, Marissa opens up about the moments
that didn't go as planned, what she learned from bets
that didn't pay off, how she balances risk with resilience,
and why she's drawn to brands with something to prove.
Speaker 1 (15:42):
I always say, strategy is choices, which means it's being
bold enough to say I'm going to do that, but
I'm not going to do these other things, and that's hard.
Sometimes we all want to try to make everyone happy
and do everything.
Speaker 3 (15:55):
We'll be right back. I'd love to.
Speaker 2 (16:06):
Highlight the Live Moss campaign at Taco Bell. You made
it cool again. Hearing you talk about these strategies, I'd
love for you to kind of bring those thoughts to
life by walking us through that brand and the sort
of reimagination of Taco Bell through that campaign.
Speaker 3 (16:24):
What was your creative process, your strategic process?
Speaker 1 (16:27):
Well, Live mos specifically was a line that predated me,
so I want to be clear that that was already there.
And one of the things that I think good leaders
do when you come into a new situation, and part
of the situation assessment is what do we want to maintain,
what do we have that's working, and then what needs
to be changed.
Speaker 3 (16:45):
So job one is.
Speaker 1 (16:47):
Actually understanding what the problem or opportunity is and then
figuring out your game plan. And that's very much how
I approach coming into Taco Bell again as an outsider
to the industry, big learning curve, but it also gave
me the ability to just sort of assess it holistically
and without baggage and really look at what was happening
(17:09):
in culture. How are sensibilities around fast food? QSR is
the industry term QSR quick service restaurants. So in QSR,
what was going on? And you know what, here are
some of the realities. It was an industry with negative
transaction growth. Think about what that means.
Speaker 3 (17:26):
That means the.
Speaker 1 (17:26):
Industry as a whole. Just to even play the game,
you're fighting an uphill battle to get your sales to
be flat two year ago, and what does that mean?
And this was a few years ago, so things change.
But at the time, there was a little bit of
you know, maybe I don't want to just eat burgers
and fries all the time, Like what you didn't feel
necessarily proud going to eat fast food.
Speaker 3 (17:48):
So you're looking at that.
Speaker 1 (17:49):
But at the same time, it's brands and culture and
the value proposition was important.
Speaker 3 (17:53):
But then saying, okay, well.
Speaker 1 (17:54):
What about Taco Bell, Like there was a cult of
the brand for sure, but then a lot of cracks
in the armor in terms of being the butt of
late night comedian jokes. As you know, the brand that
makes you go to the bathroom. I mean it's funny,
but is that really funny? I mean that's not actually
a good thing. Being able to call those things out
(18:15):
with clarity and without judgment, just with clarity is to say,
let's look at this, because all that shapes where we
need to go. And for me, it very much shaped
a belief that we had not just an opportunity, but
a need to separate and elevate the brand from the
rest of QSR. And there was already, in fairness, discussion
(18:38):
about that and talking about Taco Bell as a category
of one. I just want to be really respectful of
the people that preceded me. A lot of great thinking already,
but how to maybe do that, and how to put
the brand in the context of being a culture centric
lifestyle brand and what that could open up in terms
of new ways of thinking about the.
Speaker 3 (18:59):
Brand generallying revenue.
Speaker 1 (19:01):
Distinguishing us was very much what you know, I feel
is the imprint I was able to put on it,
and it kind of pulminated in doing the Taco Bell Hotel,
which was in a way this like really cool apotheosis
of every part of the lifestyle and it sold out
in two minutes and when you think about what that
means in terms of brand that you take something so
(19:24):
ubiquitous you can go a couple miles and for a
few dollars access Taco Bell. Let's be honest that people
set up computer banks as if they were waiting to
get access to the hottest concert tickets. I kid you
not booked it and spent hundreds of dollars on airfare
and then staying at the hotel to access the experience.
(19:45):
That is, to me the business case study in that,
what does that mean and how does that spill over
in terms of expanding that cult? And that's just one
example of many, many things, but especially on a big
brand like that, it's never going to be one thing.
It's always going to be a comprehensive strategy that incorporates innovation, value,
(20:07):
honoring what's core, coming up with new ways of generating
cultural topspin, thinking differently about partnerships and collaborations. So the
fun part was getting to figure all of that out
and having an amazing team to do it with.
Speaker 2 (20:23):
I want to learn more about when you're thinking about
pivoting a brand, there are investments you have to make,
and some investments are not going to pay off when
you're kind of just sitting down for the first time
to assess the situation, what are the questions that you're
asking to get closer to the solution. You identified some
things already where like the media is portraying us in
(20:43):
this way, we don't like it and we need to
change that. And that's like one variable. But when you're
looking at all the ways that you could potentially pivot,
how do you narrow it down? I have multiple answers
as to that. Maybe give me a case study again,
because I know it's very specific to a brand.
Speaker 1 (21:02):
Yeah, I'm giving you a little bit of one for
Taco Bell that I then took that thinking with me
is coming in and creating what I think of as
an ultimate synthesis of all that stuff. Like you're just
a sponge from the consumer insights to the marketplace, to
your own observations, talking to employees, going in that case,
to restaurant.
Speaker 3 (21:21):
So your job is to synthesize that. That to me
is the first work.
Speaker 1 (21:25):
So one way of doing that and organizing that is
to start big and get smaller.
Speaker 3 (21:31):
So big is like culture, like the world at large.
Speaker 1 (21:35):
And then you get a little more narrow and say Okay,
what about specifically this industry or the category, what's happening there?
And then you get a little narrower and say the consumer.
And then at the end of the day, the business itself,
the brand itself, what's happening there? And when you start
synthesizing that. For me, when you find the tension points
(21:57):
in there, that's where you kind of folk and say
that's where I kind of have to untie that knot
and go forward. So that's probably the large view at
the almost existential view with some brands, including where I
am now, and thinking about them is just saying, are
we clear on the why?
Speaker 3 (22:17):
I said? It sounds existential, but.
Speaker 1 (22:19):
It's really fun like if you don't pull back and
get out of your own insider knowledge and say, why
do people care about this brand, this company, this product?
Do I know why they care? Or do I have
a good enough reason why they might or could care?
Speaker 3 (22:35):
Today?
Speaker 1 (22:36):
I like to think of that as the ultimate value proposition,
what's the why? And sometimes it's really clear and other
times it's not. So For me, that's what I actually
really enjoy the most is trying to find a way
forward with a brand that maybe that isn't clear, how
to make it clear, and then that becomes a strategy,
(22:59):
that becomes a choice to get everyone a line to
saying that's what we're going after.
Speaker 3 (23:05):
And I always say strategy is choices.
Speaker 1 (23:07):
Which means it's being bold enough to say I'm going
to do that, but I'm not going to do these
other things.
Speaker 3 (23:13):
And that's hard.
Speaker 1 (23:14):
Sometimes we all want to try to make everyone happy
and do everything.
Speaker 2 (23:18):
Which brings me to a question about a time of tension,
a time of when you went in big on an idea,
on an AHA and it didn't quite work, or you
didn't get buy in. Basically, what I'm asking is, Marisa,
tell me about a failure, but that was very meaningful
to you in your career and it was a lesson.
Speaker 3 (23:38):
I mean, I've had lots of things not work out.
Speaker 1 (23:41):
I think the nature of trying something new, by definition,
it hasn't been done before, so it's not predictable and
therefore there's risk. But if you don't try some things new,
it's really hard to have a different effect, and that
in and of itself is a tension of creativity as
a way of solving problems. So I think your responsibility
(24:03):
as a leader is to make sure your risks are
smart and calculated. And how do you still go forward
and try something new and swing big but de risk
So you de risk something by being able. Remember it
actually goes back to the confidence and humility thing. So
you go forward using all your best knowledge, all your
(24:24):
best resources, and you try and you stick with it.
But you also have to be humble and agile enough
to say, if something isn't working, how do I readjust?
How do I course correct or the marketplace changes? Like
we said at the very start of this conversation, you say, okay,
how do I change my gameplay? So for me, I
(24:44):
appreciate but also sort of hate the failure question because
it all depends what you consider a failure versus as
many people wiser than me have said, I don't fail
either win or I learn. I think that is a
really good mind said. You have to be willing to
learn and then adjust. So I certainly can give you
(25:06):
ideas of things I've tried that didn't work exactly the
way I wanted, But I'd like to think I haven't
had unmitigated failures because you don't let the business completely fail.
You find a way to readjust Yeah, what you're saying
at Echoes. We had Navine Jane on the show.
Speaker 2 (25:21):
He's a serial entrepreneur, and you said, one of the
biggest misconceptions people have about entrepreneurship, and I think even
people who are top of their games leaders responsible for
her teams, is that we leaders entrepreneurs, we love risk,
we are drawn to risk. And he said, no, Actually,
the successful entrepreneurs they're really good at de risking. They
aren't turned off by risk. But it's not to say
(25:44):
that they just go in blind. You know, their biggest
job is to if they know what they're doing, is
to figure out how to do the crazy wild thing
while not sinking the ship right, keeping the lights on.
Speaker 1 (25:56):
Yeah, what I've found myself just saying is recently is yesterday,
and talking about this is I realize I do like
taking on an underdog, because if you think about an
underdog who's coming from behind, there's no sort of physics
or math equation where if you do things at exactly
(26:17):
the same speed and the same way as someone who's
ahead of you, that you're going to catch up and surpass.
Speaker 3 (26:22):
So when you explain that to.
Speaker 1 (26:26):
Your organization, to your stakeholders, your colleagues, and say I'm
actually trying to de risk the chances that we're going
to keep doing this and keep not having the impact
we want to have. Like that's the classic definition of insanity.
So I feel the mandate is we have to try
things differently to have an outsize improvement and not be
(26:51):
as much of an underdog tomorrow as maybe we were today.
But that's scary, it's hard, and you want to be right.
Company wants you to be right. So it really comes
down to that sort of playing. The confidence and the
agility and the humility, those two things together become very
important because if you have no confidence, you're not going
(27:15):
to try and you're not going to do the big
things that can actually have impact. And if you're too confident,
then you might not see the signs that you need
to read that help you adjust.
Speaker 3 (27:25):
As I said, how you play. Thank you for that.
Speaker 2 (27:28):
Let's talk about catalysts. This is your latest role and
it's a portfolio of retail brands, namely JC Penny Brooks Brothers.
What excited you about this new role? Retail's tough right now,
got to say, especially since COVID, the consumer habits have changed,
manufacturing has changed. Tell us how you're thinking about this job.
Speaker 1 (27:51):
Yeah, retail's not for the faint of heart, I always say,
and being a CMO is not for the faint of heart.
Speaker 3 (27:55):
Maybe I'm a glutton for punishment.
Speaker 1 (27:57):
But for me, it was the intrigue first of taking
an over one hundred and twenty year old brand that's
an American icon that has lost some of its luster
and some of its relevance, and realizing that was the
essence of the opportunity is can you open up more
hearts and minds to consideration of J. C.
Speaker 3 (28:17):
Penny today? Not because they're nostalgic about it.
Speaker 1 (28:20):
And by the way, there was a core loyal consumer,
so there's a meaningful business there. I mean, there's over
six hundred and fifty stores across the US and Puerto Rico,
But how do you get everyone else to see it
and see it in a modern light?
Speaker 3 (28:33):
I love that as an opportunity.
Speaker 1 (28:35):
I also make a lot of my decisions based on
gut and people and relationships, and I just felt an
immediate affinity for Mark Rosen, the CEO, my colleague Michelle Loslow.
Speaker 3 (28:50):
Who at the time was chief merchandising officer.
Speaker 1 (28:52):
Now in our new portfolio, environment is heading a jcpenny
business entirely. So it was JC Penny part first and
that's what I got started with.
Speaker 3 (29:02):
But also knew almost from the beginning.
Speaker 1 (29:05):
That there was a high likelihood that we were heading
towards this merger and that that was going to turn
it into a whole different kind of opportunity, which it
has as of January. So now we're Catalyst Brands because
we have five other brands that are under our tent,
which include as you said, Brooks Brothers, but also Aeropostal,
Lucky Brand, Nautica, and Eddie Bauer. So that of course
(29:29):
makes for a different leadership challenge, and you're dealing with
new colleagues, you're creating a different kind of team. You're
figuring out where there's opportunities to create synergy, but then
where there's also the ongoing stewardship of each as an
individual brand of business. So not a dull moment, as
we said earlier, never a dull moment, but exciting too.
(29:51):
I mean, I think what I do love about retail
is for me, it comes down to parts of culture
and that's the commonality. Think beauty or fast food or retails,
they are just different dimensions of culture that resonate across
such big swaths of American life, and being able to
tap into those needs and insights and opportunities is the
(30:16):
really interesting and exciting part of the work.
Speaker 2 (30:19):
What is in the zeitgeist right now for the customer
that's shopping for clothing. I mean, I think you're right.
Retail has so much opportunity to revive. And you know,
brands that we thought, oh they're dead, now they're back.
And sometimes it's from my perspective, I don't obviously work
at these companies, but as the consumer walking through them
(30:40):
all or watching ads, it's like, oh, they got a
great Like Parker Posey is now attached to Gap and
she has a really cute dance commercial, and like you
go in the store and it's very vibrant, and you're thinking,
is this like Gaps having a new moment. Tell me
more of the science behind that, though, Like what does
it take sometimes for brands today to reclaim their place
(31:00):
in our hearts and our wallets when we're going out
there thinking about shopping for clothes.
Speaker 1 (31:05):
If that were an easy question to answer, everyone would
be doing it. So there is no singular answer for that,
and not everyone is able to do it. That's why
we see brands come and go in the marketplace, in
the landscape. Take JC Penny. I mean what's exciting is
this is a brand which has endured. Brooks Brothers the
oldest retail brand in America. Eddie Bauer, by the way,
(31:27):
also about one hundred year old brand. So I mean,
that's incredible when you think about that, because for everyone
that I name, there are many many others that I
might have grown up with that are no longer in
the landscape. So think about that for a second. The
marketplace obviously has a certain amount of call it hygiene
or revitalization of new and old and revitalized. But I
(31:51):
do think there's something really exciting about taking a brand
that has meaning, that means something to people, that has equity,
and making sure that there is a value proposition that
makes it relevant for today. That is interesting to me.
How you do that has to be individualized to all
the sets of factors that we talked about earlier. And
(32:14):
I always say it took a long time for something
to decline. It's unreasonable to think it's going to be
a five second turnaround every once in a while.
Speaker 3 (32:22):
That happens.
Speaker 1 (32:23):
But you know they say, like I've been working for
years to be an overnight success.
Speaker 3 (32:28):
That all added right.
Speaker 1 (32:29):
It's that So for me, it comes down to so
many of the things we talked about is seeing a
fresh path forward that is uniquely right for that brand
or business and then figuring out.
Speaker 3 (32:40):
How to execute to it.
Speaker 2 (32:42):
It's exciting. I love seeing when brands try new things. Yeah,
and they're not afraid to sort of go on the edge,
like whether it's a cheeky social media presence or you know,
aligning with a celebrity model that has a POV and
isn't afraid to sort of align themse with that.
Speaker 3 (33:00):
I think that's bold.
Speaker 2 (33:01):
And these days, I think going back to what you
were saying about trust and honesty, I think that carries that.
Speaker 3 (33:07):
That goes back to also what we talked about with
the customer.
Speaker 1 (33:09):
It's a relationship with either a current or potential customer,
and so you have to think about are you honoring
or potentially diminishing that relationship and not all of the
factors that can build or create that are in your control.
Things happen, but if you feel good about what you're selling,
(33:34):
you just made me to find the way to tell
that story the right way. That to me is in
a way the ultimate craft of this role, with all
then the complexity and data science and inputs and factors
that go into that, but stripping it down to what's essential,
I think it is about how do you build that
(33:56):
customer relationship.
Speaker 2 (33:59):
I understand and are an avid mentor, and you particularly
like to mentor young women professionals. Is there a piece
of advice that you find yourself giving over and over
again that is still needed despite maybe all the books,
all the podcasts, all the things that you wish maybe
you had gotten as you were starting out in your
(34:20):
career in largely male dominated industry.
Speaker 1 (34:23):
Well you might know that I found an organization a
long time ago called Executive Moms. So I feel to
this day a feer sense of advocacy for women in
the workplace and particularly moms, because I mean, we've made
a lot of progress, but in some ways we have
not made nearly enough.
Speaker 3 (34:43):
So I've spent a.
Speaker 1 (34:43):
Lot of time thinking about being a woman and also
a mom in the workplace and what that represents, and
unfortunately it's still not equoitable.
Speaker 3 (34:53):
It's just not.
Speaker 1 (34:54):
And there's so many great things about women and leadership
that frankly the whole world would be well served to embrace.
But in terms of mentorship, I always struggle when people
are like, oh, who are your mentors? Because for me,
it was never like a specific thing like this person
is my mentor. I've played a more formal mentor role
(35:16):
to some people through some formal programs informal ways, but
for me, I think it was about, over time, building
a community of people whose examples were inspirational to me,
whose voices I trusted, traditional business colleagues, and also non
traditional people who I realized where I wanted to get
(35:40):
my sense of self from, namely my mom. And I
know that's tripe, but it's true. And she was not
a corporate person at all. She was a speech fithlogist,
she worked, she didn't understand corporate. But I realized the
older I get, the more the lessons I gleaned from
her become very important part of who I am and
what kind of leader I want to be and what
kind of human I want to be. So that's for
(36:02):
me how I think about what mentorship was. As I
think about mentoring others, how do I fill maybe some
of the gaps that I had is no artifice around
the idea of mentorship, not coaching, but real conversations like
what is really going on here? What are you looking at?
How can we think about this differently? I think probably
(36:24):
that's the biggest difference for maybe what I would have
craved earlier on is being able to be like I'm
really start how do I navigate this? And having the
right people to really honestly help me with that might
have been nice.
Speaker 2 (36:37):
Like to be actually heard, you know, someone to listen
to you, as opposed to just giving you the five
principles of navigating corporate as a woman.
Speaker 1 (36:47):
Yeah, I mean just sort of feeling safe to talk
about the really hard, uncomfortable stuff like navigating difficult office politics, ambition,
decisions about taking risks.
Speaker 3 (37:00):
It feels all very fuzzy to me that earlier part.
Speaker 1 (37:02):
Of my career and who I turned to and where
I found it. But over time I feel lucky that
now I just realized there's a whole bunch of different
people I would turn to in different situations.
Speaker 3 (37:16):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (37:17):
As we part, Marissa, I'd like to ask you our
last question we ask all of our leaders on leading
by example, and it is this, what does leading by
example mean to you, You've given us so many nuggets
of wisdom throughout the hour, But to synthesize it, what
would it be? Well, this is a terrible example, the
thing of as you said that it reminded me of.
(37:40):
I was such a good student and I always had
great relationships with my teachers. But I had this one, really,
really bad teacher in high school who turned out to
have been quite notorious for having done some problematic things
that the news, shall we say.
Speaker 3 (37:56):
Oh the news, I'm going to be googling this now,
are Yeah?
Speaker 1 (38:00):
I remember he famously would say in class. But unrelated
to that, do as I say, not as I do.
And I realize that's just an absolutely terrible thing to
say as a leader. Like no, leading by example for
me is do as I do, not just what I say. So,
(38:20):
if I'm expecting you to be a risk taker, I
have to be a risk taker. If I'm expecting you
to be willing to say, hey, you know what, I
don't think this works so well, here's what I'm going
to do.
Speaker 3 (38:33):
About I have to model that behavior.
Speaker 1 (38:36):
So leading by example is actually being both the executive
and the person that you would most hope to find also,
in my opinion, like I'm not perfect by any stretch
of the imagination, and I don't pretend to be.
Speaker 3 (38:52):
And I think having a sense of.
Speaker 1 (38:54):
Humor is also something that we really need to elevate
as a value. I mean, we spend a lot of
time at work, and when I realize what gives me
joy from work, it is the social connection. It is
the sense of being part of a team and banding together.
Speaker 3 (39:12):
And if I can't.
Speaker 1 (39:12):
Laugh at myself, if I can't laugh at the absurdity
of a situation, if I can't laugh at just something
funny that happened with my colleagues, it really diminishes the
joy and the ability to take some of the pain
of the hard parts away. So that for me is
also leading by example that we can be real with
(39:34):
each other. We can be funny, we can be warm,
and we can be serious, and we can toggle between
all these different things, so long as we're all using
that as a way to galvanize ourselves even more to
do the hard work together. And if I lead well
in any dimens, I hope I'm being true to that.
(39:57):
And just even that little bit of vulnerability I think
makes people want to help each other more. And I
always try to also say, and I learned this, like
the competitions on the outside, let's try to not make
it here, and that doesn't always happen in some environments,
but the more you build a sense of we are
(40:18):
in this together, it's actually what I really love about
leading teams the most is thinking of it as team sport,
thinking about how we play together, getting people motivated and excited,
and not sugarcoating the hard parts, but also allowing us
to enjoy the good parts, because work is always going
(40:38):
to be a composition of both.
Speaker 2 (40:41):
Marissa Thalberg, thank you so much for joining us. I
really appreciated having you and meeting you. Thank you, thank
you for setting this up.
Speaker 4 (40:51):
Ryan.
Speaker 2 (40:51):
You know, I find it so fascinating how many different
industries she has worked in, and she said it herself,
you know, I don't always know what I'm walking into,
and that's part of the journey, admitting that and marrying
that though with confidence eventually right asking questions, leaning in.
Speaker 3 (41:10):
She demonstrated that balance really well.
Speaker 2 (41:13):
But it's not every day to get a leader who's like, yeah,
I don't know what I don't know.
Speaker 4 (41:17):
I just love the breadth of her experience and the
fact that she can speak to so many different brands
and different environments that she's worked in. And I really
what stuck with me in this conversation was her quote
about success being just a matter of physics, that you
can't catch up going the same speed as the person
in front of you, and the same speed and direction
as the person in front of you. I just thought
(41:39):
that was such a great visual of dealing with success
and trying to move forward and trying to develop not
just yourself but your team and as a leader, and
this idea that you really have to push to get
to that next level. I really appreciated her insight in that,
and it really lends to this kind of underdog mentality
that she talked about coming into programs that already exist.
(42:01):
She was talking about how dealing with an iconic brand
like Taco Bell and coming into a program that kind
of was already up and walking, and how she could
bring it up into a run.
Speaker 2 (42:11):
Did you know that there was a Taco Bell Hotel?
I feel like she sped through that and I really
wanted to go back and ask more about the Taco
Bell Hotel, which I don't think exists anymore.
Speaker 3 (42:20):
But it was in Palm Springs.
Speaker 4 (42:21):
I would love to stay there. I feel like it
needs to come back, so I hope someone can follow
in her footsteps.
Speaker 3 (42:28):
You liked what she.
Speaker 2 (42:29):
Said about success, which I did too, but I also
loved what she said about failure and how sometimes situations
do not create the conditions for success. And it's not
a you problem, it's an environment problem. It's a system problem.
And at that point when you realize it, it's not
to say that you have to leave, but it's your
resilience will be tested at that point and there's no
(42:51):
sort of right or wrong there. It's like you got
to just do what feels right, what is possible, try
all the things, but ultimately, if it's not working, it's
not working, and that's okay.
Speaker 3 (43:01):
You got to leave then.
Speaker 4 (43:02):
And I loved her recipe to that note about dealing
with failure and also just trying to find success. Her
recipe for success being confidence, agility, and humility, and the
humility I think is the biggest part of just having
the confidence to push forward even in the face of failure,
but also the humility in those times of great success,
understanding what got you there and being able to sustain it,
(43:25):
and I just thought that that speaks to her as
a leader, and it's something we can all learn from.
Speaker 2 (43:30):
You know, I've done so many of these interviews now, Ryan,
and I wonder how often the word humility and empathy
would have come up twenty years ago if we had
a podcast called Leading by Example. I think that the
world and all the things that it has thrown at
us has made it so now the ethos the culture
(43:51):
as a leader, it's okay to exhibit all these things
and then talk about it publicly, to say I don't
know something, to say, it's important to be cann it's
important to ask questions as a leader and not pretend
like you have all the answers.
Speaker 3 (44:06):
To be humble.
Speaker 2 (44:07):
I might be jumping to a conclusion here, but I
think this is a new ag thing, is what I'm saying.
Speaker 4 (44:12):
And I'm glad that we're in this age of transparency.
I think it really comes down to folks being able
to share their authentic experiences, even in leadership roles. That
it's not just about being the general on the battlefield
with a stoic face, but instead being a true confidant
and team member. And that's where that empathy really can
come from well listeners.
Speaker 2 (44:35):
I hope you enjoyed this episode as much as we did.
If you like what you're hearing, please follow and subscribe.
You don't miss out on any new episodes, and as always,
we want to hear your thoughts to make this the
best show possible, so please leave us a review. In
the meantime, you can find me at farnush Charabi on
Instagram and I'm always on the So Money podcast. I'll
see you next time. This podcast is a production of
(44:56):
iHeartRadio's Ruby Studio. Our executive pduce is Matt Stillo and
our supervising producer is Nikkia Swinton.
Speaker 3 (45:04):
This podcast was edited by Sierra Spreen.
Host
Farnoosh Torabi
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