July 31, 2025 • 25 mins
In this special in-between-seasons bonus episode of Leading by Example, host Farnoosh Torabi is joined by supervising producer Nakia (Kia) Swinton to reflect on standout leadership lessons from Season One. From authenticity and inclusion to empathy, expertise, and the power of introspection, Farnoosh and Kia revisit powerful moments and behind-the-scenes insights from their conversations with industry trailblazers including Will Pearson (iHeartMedia), Shannon Schuyler (PwC), Kathleen Griffith, Naveen Jain, Claude Silver (VaynerX), Marisa Thalberg, Danielle Weisberg & Carly Zakin (TheSkimm), and Ryan Serhant. Whether you're new to the show or a longtime listener, this highlight reel captures the spirit of the series—and sets the stage for an inspiring Season Two.
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Speaker 1 (00:04):
Movie. It's Farnushcharabi. Welcome back to Leading by Example. We're
in between seasons right now, but today we wanted to
share something a little different instead of an interview, I'm
here with our producer Kia to talk about some of
our favorite moments from the first season. Hey, Kia, Hey
(00:26):
for our news. It's great to be back with you again. Yeah,
going down memory lane. We've picked out some clips and
insights that really kind of stuck with us and I
think our listeners too, And we think these will also
show the different ways to approach leadership. And if you're
new here, this is a perfect way to sample what
the show's all about. And if you've been with us
(00:46):
from the start, thank you. Consider it a highlight reel
of lessons worth hearing again. So let's get into it.
So we started this season off with Will Pearson, president
of the iHeart Podcast Network. He had such an interesting
perspective on what it means to actually empower creators, especially
(01:06):
underrepresented voices in podcasting, and it was one of those
moments that really reminded me why I personally love this medium.
Take a listen.
Speaker 2 (01:17):
So what we're in effect trying to do is to
fund and support startups within a large organization so that
when Charlemagne, the god legendary host of the Breakfast Club
or co host of the Breakfast Club comes along and says,
I think it's time to start a network dedicated to
black voices because of the incredible underrepresentation in the podcast space.
When he came to us in twenty twenty and express that,
(01:40):
we said, well, now is the time to do this.
Let's give it a shot, and to give him the resources,
but in some ways to also step out of the
way and to not get in the way of a
creator or a visionary trying to create their thing. We
know that we have the toolkit to help a podcast
network or an individual podcast succeed through marketing and the
megaphone that we have here at iHeart, but we also
(02:01):
know we want to invest in and believe in creators
to see through their vision.
Speaker 1 (02:07):
That was Will Pearson, president of the iHeart podcast network. Kiya.
You know, I just really remembered him as being somebody
who was so open to not only hearing from his
creators in the network, but allowing them to roam free,
experiment with ideas, really trusting them. He gave the example
(02:28):
of let's say Charlottagne, the God comes to me with
an idea, giving that artist, that creator the runway to
go and do that. It's not for nothing. I mean,
I think we're living in a world where we don't
have necessarily always at freedom when we're working with a
big corporation.
Speaker 3 (02:43):
Absolutely, I feel like that's something that like, I'm sure
you can relate to being a creator. And I was
independent podcasting before Eikeen. iHeart so really value creators. I
always keep that in consideration working full time in podcasting
and thinking about working with creators, which is one of
my favorite parts of the job is always looking at
talent and seeing what's authentic. And I really think the
(03:04):
audience can always relate to that, like it's just hard
to fake being authentic. And I think it's just something
that every company needs to remember, especially when they're working
with creators, because if you had someone like Charlotte, me
and the God doing something completely out of his realm,
like that's not going to translate to the audience. So
I think it's a good lesson that will has and
something that everyone can definitely take into account, whether it's
(03:28):
finance or politics. It's just so important to connect to
your audience, to be authentic.
Speaker 1 (03:33):
Yeah, translated really well to all sorts of industries. All right, Well,
next up is Shannon Skuyler from PwC talking about inclusion
in a very clear eyed way in our time together.
She challenged the idea that DEI can just be quote
unquote solved by a program or a department and really
(03:54):
put the focus on everyday interactions.
Speaker 4 (04:00):
The department can't solve for diversity, equity inclusion that actually
happens on the ground with the people you interact with
every single day, whether your colleague, your supervisor, your client.
And we're trying to determine how do you bring that
more and not just say here's a couple of programs
that will solve for this, because your programs aren't going
to solve for it. So how does the culture and
(04:22):
the environment really become more inclusive to do that on
its own?
Speaker 1 (04:27):
And we should mention Shannon Skyler came on the show
after the election, so we know what's happened since right
there are a lot of industries, a lot of individual
companies that have sort of done away with their D
and I. They are changing the names of their programs,
they don't want to be targeted for promoting, believe it
or not, diversity, equity, and inclusion. I really appreciate it
(04:49):
Shannon Schuyler's I don't about say bravery, but sort of
like she has a no nonsense approach to this, which
is that this is everyone's job. This is a job,
this is an important job, an important role, and as
a leader, she's of the mind that she couldn't possibly
be the one, the one person to have you know,
all the answers are to say, Okay, this is the
(05:09):
program that we're all going to plug into and practice
and we'll solve all of our d and I concerns.
That inclusion is lived in every interaction, not just a policy.
So kudos to Shannon Skuyler for first just coming on
our show to tackle this in this current political climate,
and then to be bold with her vision and her
(05:31):
ideas around it.
Speaker 3 (05:32):
Yeah, it's such a timely topic and it's just so
interesting because she made a good point how maybe after
George Floyd doing twenty twenty in the pandemic, that all
these companies went like extreme to be like diversity and
like how can we make up for this? And then
five years later it's going extreme opposite, and it's like
really about finding that balance, which I think is in
(05:53):
any way, you know, you could talk about the economy
in certain ways and not to get political about how
people voted for Obama and then went to the extreme
and voted for Trump. Like there's a lot of crossover
with that. So I think like taking that into account
with your company culture or anything you want to solve,
you can't just go like fool on one hundred percent
and then like take it back and be like, why
is it anything working? Yeah, I think she had like
(06:14):
a great approach to be like this is such a
personal experience and we need to shape the culture and
we can't just like hand out a program and slap
a number on something or slap a title on something.
Speaker 1 (06:25):
Like it really takes a lot of effort and work.
Speaker 3 (06:28):
And I think it goes back to like that's another
form of being authentic, and people can see that their
leaders are not being authentic once they just go to
one extreme and then the other. So I really love
that Shannon brought that up. And I also loved her
personal journey of being at PwC for like, what was
it like eighteen years?
Speaker 1 (06:44):
Right, I was gonna say that, yeah, not for nothing.
But she's had not only that longevity at PwC, but
has worked in so many different capacities. So I think
reinforcing her thought leadership around this. You know, she's seen
it all, she's done it all, and she has endured
many cycles of economies and business and trends, and I think, again,
(07:07):
really grateful that she was able to come on the show.
Next up is Kathleen Griffith. We had Kathleen on the show,
founder of Grace and Coe, who gave an incredibly personal
take on self awareness in leadership and I loved how
she broke down the work of really knowing yourself in
order to lead others. She's also an incredible advocate for
women and women in the workplace. Here's Kathleen Griffith.
Speaker 5 (07:33):
Ninety percent of who we are is completely subconscious. It
is all buried under the surface, and in my opinion,
to be a great leader, you have to uncover all
that lies underneath, What triggers you, what excites you, who
you really are as a leader, who you really are
as a person. And I think part of the problem
(07:55):
is that so many people are leading others without truly
knowing themselves.
Speaker 1 (08:02):
Yeah, what could be something if more leaders went to therapy.
That's my takeaway here. She didn't actually say therapy, but
I was like, you're talking about a therapist, right, Absolutely.
Speaker 3 (08:14):
I feel like there's so much therapy speak and like
our culture now and like social media, but honestly, when
the right people do therapy, it does work.
Speaker 1 (08:24):
Wonders.
Speaker 3 (08:25):
This is probably like my favorite, So I don't know
if I'm not to have favors, so this.
Speaker 1 (08:27):
Was probably my favorite.
Speaker 3 (08:28):
I think Kathleen gave us so many great insights and
I just love the psychology she brought into it and
how to really be a better person. And I always
think that, like, to be honest, it's incredibly selfish not
to better yourself because we all have to coexist. So
when you're not being a better person and you're not
like checking yourself, everyone else around you suffers. So it's
(08:50):
so important that if you want to lead people like
you really have to do the internal work and therapists
can't fix you overnight. Like you also have to do
the work with a therapist. So yeah, if you're going
to therapy, remember that.
Speaker 1 (09:01):
I never thought of it like that, Like you're being
kind of selfish when you're not doing the work, especially
if you're the kind of person who wants to be
a leader, right, Like you want to not have therapy
and be unevolved. I never leave your house, great, fine,
but as soon as you step outside, and on top
of that, you're like, I want to be your boss.
Yeah exactly, but I don't want to evolve. I don't
(09:22):
want to understand and unpack my feelings. Yeah, that's problematic.
So thanks for Kathleen for reminding us some good old
therapy can go a very long way in leadership. And
if you're not into therapy, I mean, look, she even
talked about just like being more introspective, journaling, taking time
to do things that are outside your comfort zone outside
of work, because I think that's also very easy to do,
(09:44):
is just be especially when you're desiring a leadership role
that you're just work work, work, work, work, right, But
being a good leader is being well rounded. Yeah, speaking
of well rounded, Navin Jane, serial entrepreneur, came on the show.
He is currently CEO of viol but he's held so
many other CEO roles. He had such a provocative take
(10:05):
on expertise and why sometimes not being the expert can
actually be your superpower, your advantage. Take a listen.
Speaker 6 (10:16):
My feeling is the day you become an expert in
any subject, any industry, you become useless or I would
say incrementalists in that industry.
Speaker 1 (10:27):
That means the best you can be.
Speaker 6 (10:28):
Is ten percent better than anyone else in the industry,
but you'll never be ten times better. To be ten
times better, you have to challenge the foundation of everything
that expert has taken it for granted. And that's the
fundamental problem is non experts come along challenge everything that
you have taken it for granted, completely, rethink and recreate
(10:50):
and reinvent the industry, and the whole industry gets disrupted.
And that, to me is really the power of thinking
like a naive person.
Speaker 1 (11:01):
Navin Jane, CEO of Yome, also a billionaire. I would
put that in my LinkedIn profile if I was a billionaire.
Speaker 3 (11:08):
I feel like that's worthy of a bullet But do
you think it's like targeted too? Like do you think
people would target you if you said, like, I'm a billionaire.
Speaker 1 (11:16):
That's true, but you know there are lists. It's hard
to hide when you're a billionaire. That's true. It's hard
to hide, for sure. But I loved this interview and
it doesn't come so much through this clip, but I
really encourage everyone to go back and listen because Naven,
we weren't in the same room, but we could see
each other. Such a happy, optimistic guy. Again, could be
the billions, I'm not sure, more money, more problems, but
(11:39):
also more happiness I think when you get to the
billion dollar level. But I think he's had this from
birth because he wasn't someone who came from means at all,
like he talked about growing up in poverty in India.
Brilliant bright Man came to the US and quickly kind
of got absorbed by industry here. I mean, he's so smart.
It was also during like tech boom and all of that,
(12:01):
so he's worked with greats like Bill Gates, and so
no surprise that he became very successful because he is
such a brilliant mind. But also I think like a
guy that I want to hang out with, have a
coffee with, because he just has so many stories but
has such this positive take on life, which I think
after maybe being a serial entrepreneur, you know, you could
(12:23):
get a little hardened absolutely after a while running one business,
let alone many is very difficult. Yeah, that seems really tiring.
Speaker 3 (12:31):
And he's the type of person that gets up at
like four am and doesn't work out and all that
stuff so much.
Speaker 1 (12:36):
Zest for life so much.
Speaker 3 (12:38):
And I will say Kathleen's episode was my favorite, but
Navine was the most interesting person maybe I've ever met.
I don't know.
Speaker 1 (12:45):
He was so interesting.
Speaker 3 (12:47):
It was so exciting to hear his takes on everything
and how like he challenges himself to like not be
stagnant and always looking to build another business, and his
thought process of like you have to do good in
the world. I loved when he said, like money doesn't
make you a bad person or something. He was like,
those people are already bad people. Money just like elevated.
Speaker 1 (13:09):
Yeah, we agreed on that. So having worked in personal
finance for so long, I've developed this inkling, which is
that someone who arrives at money, a lot of money,
let's say, and suddenly is like very generous or contraste,
very greedy. Like the money didn't make them that way.
Money is just a tool. It was in them always
(13:31):
to be that person. And I think you can be
generous and greedy without money, right, you can be generous
with your time with your compassion, and you can also
be very greedy with your time and your lack of compassion.
And essentially, the thesis is that more money makes you
more of who you really are. Oh wow, isn't that
something I think it's worthy of a debate. But I
(13:51):
was excited to know that I and a billionaire shared that. Vie,
you have the billionaire minds. I guess, yeah, there's hope
for me. Yeah, We'll be right back. Next up, my
(14:13):
friend Claude Silver joined us on the pod chief Heart
Officer a vayner X. She spoke to the humanside of
leadership in our time together, and she talks about building
a culture that feels kind and connected but also ambitious.
Take a listen.
Speaker 7 (14:31):
The eye has to be on the prize, and the
prize is, yes, having a healthy culture and having people
that want to work and that make friends that I'm
devoted to in a place that's kind and there's camaraderie,
but I'm also devoted to being successful. I want everyone
to be able to get the rays that they're looking
for and to get the promotion. But that only happens
when the organism is working together. It takes a village.
Speaker 1 (14:54):
Yes, it takes a village. That was Claude Silver, Chief
Heart Officer A vayner X And firstly, I love Claude.
She's been a friend for years, and I just knew
she was going to bring so much important wisdom to
the show around the value of kindness at work in
a world when we can feel like everything is so transactional,
(15:16):
everything can be hurtful, sometimes insensitive. And she said, I
think when she was growing up her nickname was Heart.
Her grandmother called her Heart. Yeah, so now fast forward today,
that's actually in her professional title, and that was not
always her goal, Like no one wakes up going one
day I'd like to be a Chief Heart Officer. She
talked also about being very lost in her twenties, not
(15:37):
knowing what she wanted to pursue. So I thought that
was really relatable.
Speaker 3 (15:40):
Yeah, you could just tell, like Claude has such a
great spirit. It just comes off so well. And it
takes a village, as something we always hear mostly with
like raising kids, I feel like, but it really does
take a village for like anything to be successful, Like
you need community in your life, and you need community
and your work spot as well. And I love that
she said, being like heart officer, leading with the heart
(16:02):
is not soft, it's really essential. And at the end
of the day, I think we're all people, and I
think we need to realize that none of us were
asked to put on this earth, but we are on
this earth, and we do need to co exist, and
we need to just remember to have empathy. And I
do think if leaders lead with empathy, it's just gonna
work so much better in their favor.
Speaker 1 (16:20):
Yeah, there's studies now that show how financially important it
is to be empathetic a work, and I know that
some people, for them, whether they're going to pursue one
path over another, comes down to the dollars and cents
of it. And guess what, There is real value not
just sort of social value, but financial value in being
(16:40):
a kind and empathetic person at work and practicing that
at work. It's also contagious. Empathy is contagious. I learned
that from a really important book called The War for Kindness.
Jamie Zaki, Stanford scientist, wrote a book about building empathy
in a fractured world. There's more bodies of work coming
out about this and science behind this. I think it's
a great place to be doing some research. Oh yeah,
(17:01):
I'm definitely gonna take a look at this. It looks
really great. Next up, we had Marissa Thalberg on the
show CCO and CMO of Catalyst Brands. She shared an
honest take on trust and authenticity and leadership. She talked
about not infantilizing your team and treating people like adults. Amen,
take a listen. My leadership style is to be real
(17:26):
about it.
Speaker 8 (17:26):
I really don't like when leaders have made me feel
like they're infantilizing you. Of course, it doesn't mean everyone
needs to know everything at all times. But trust comes
out of authenticity. And that's true for me as a
marketer and how I build a relationship with consumers. It's
also true for me as a leader and how I
(17:47):
build relationships with teams and colleagues.
Speaker 1 (17:52):
She's talking about this in the context I believe we
were talking about the many different kinds of cmos or
marketing roles she's had at various companies and different industries.
You know, she just has had like such a diverse
range of corporate experience, and she's like, look, I don't
have all the answers all the time, and my job
(18:13):
when I start a new job is not to like
pretend like I know everything. It's actually to be curious,
ask questions, do some research, because that's only how I'll
actually perform well at this job. And then the question was,
you know there's people that are not rooting for you
when you arrive at a job and they're like, how
are you doing this? You are in a different industry.
How do you kind of balance showing that you are
(18:35):
an expert but also that you know you're being strategically curious.
I guess. And her answer to that question, well, you'll
have to listen to get the whole spiel, but it
was a good answer.
Speaker 3 (18:45):
Yeah, this was such a great episode. And we've talked
about authenticy a lot, but it's so important and it's
so important for leadership, and it's scary taking on a
new job, especially if you're in a different industry. But
I think there's a balance, like me said, of you know,
not just coming in and changing everything, but also like
being curious and asking those questions.
Speaker 1 (19:06):
All right, moving on to Danielle Weisberg and Carly Zaken.
You may know their names. They have the co founders
and co CEOs of the Skim and they have been
through it all. They actually recently sold their company, and
they talked a little bit about the road to that,
the really hard days as leaders and having to put
(19:29):
on your game face during those hard times. Take a listen.
Speaker 9 (19:36):
It was such a hard moment to like have a
disappointing work day where you just kind of want to
cry and like tell your friend or whomever, and then
also have to go out and then be in front
of the team and be like, everything's fine, lunch is here,
and not let them know. And I think those moments
are the ones that make you strong. They're the ones
(19:56):
where you learn to have a game face. They're the
ones where you learn what's a big problem versus a
solvable problem, and also learn what kind of partners you
want around the table with you.
Speaker 1 (20:07):
You know, I asked the co founders, Zaken and Weisberg,
knowing what you know now having had this acquisition thirteen years,
I think into the business, what would you do differently?
And Danielle Weisberg said, everything that was intended to be
a cliffhanger. You need to go back and listen to
that episode to hear why she said that.
Speaker 3 (20:28):
Yeah, I feel like most people wouldn't say that most
people be like, I wouldn't change a thing.
Speaker 1 (20:32):
It was all meant to be.
Speaker 3 (20:34):
Yeah, everything happens for a reason. But she had such
an honest answer and I respect that, Like, yeah, if
I knew things differently, like I would change it. And
they've had such an expiring story, Like I've always been
a huge fan of the skim'll subscribe to it, like
writing college. And I always thought it was interesting how they,
you know, worked at NBC and was like, we're never
(20:55):
going to get promoted unless someone dies because it's such
an old company. I remember they said that in an
interview and I was like, WHOA that really like shaped
my experience. I'm like thinking about what job's to get
because I'm like I don't want to have to wait
till someone dies to get promoted. But I love that
they carved their own path to really connect with an
audience or really stayed true to like connecting with young women,
(21:15):
and like you could really tell that they just are
really passionate about that, and I really admire that.
Speaker 1 (21:20):
Yeah, you know, and they've been through so much together
as business owners but also as friends and then as mothers,
And every time I think of them, I just think,
like They're the real deal and they did it, and
I'm so happy to see that they have this new
chapter for the skim all right. Last, but not least,
Ryan Surhant came on leading by example. He is the
(21:41):
founder of Sir Hant, the Mega real Estate Empire. You
may also know him from his Bravo days, maybe before that,
his hand modeling days. Yes, that is true. In this clip,
Ryan talks about flexibility in leadership, and I really loved
his admission that he doesn't always like new ideas at first,
(22:01):
but he's willing to change his mind. Take a listen.
Speaker 10 (22:06):
I go into a lot of meetings with my staff, okay,
and they've got lots of ideas, and I don't like
most of them until like two weeks later I decide
I do because I learn new things, new information. I
reserve the right to change my mind. I am not
a stubborn I try not to be anyway a stubborn leader.
Where my way is the highway. I think our growth
is indicative of my listening to smarter people about their
(22:30):
specific niches, and I try to find people who are
uniquely qualified to do what they do.
Speaker 1 (22:38):
Yeah, it kind of echoes a little bit of Naviene
Jane's ideas around not pretending like you're the expert and
that you don't have to be an expert in everything,
that you lean on your team and hopefully you've cultivated
the right team or some of the right people to
lead you down smarter and better paths. And I also
appreciate that he's anti rigidity. I think, you know, as humans,
(23:01):
we like boundaries, we like rules, They're important, but sometimes
we have to break them. We have to break our
own rules. We have to surprise ourselves and be willing
to show that in front of our team and our employees,
to say, like, you know, I was wrong about that,
because who's not wrong a lot?
Speaker 3 (23:16):
Yeah, yeah, I know, that's so good. I love how
he also talked about like reserving the right to change
your mind, like we're all humans hopefully, like we said,
we're all evolving and we all, you know, will change
our mind eventually. And I think we can all respect
a leader who's like, hey, actually I thought it was
this way, but really maybe we could do it this way.
(23:37):
And like, yeah, I feel like that goes for like
opinions people. You know, we're all evolving, so like you
shouldn't have the same mindset at like twenty four versus
fifty four, I would hope and Ryan Sarhant moves quick.
Speaker 1 (23:50):
So I think that where some people might wallow in
the fact that, oh I had it wrong and now
I have to pivot, and with that comes maybe some
shape or an admission that I had it wrong. And
there's that that I have to carry with me into
this and people are going to be doubting me. It's like,
I feel like this is the pace. It's like, oh
that's wrong or oh that is actually right. Let's move,
(24:12):
let's do it like. He doesn't waste time, he doesn't
sit in whatever that is that we all can get
stuck in, you know, that wallowing in that misstep, decisiveness, indecisiveness. Right,
he keeps moving and that means he fails faster than
anyone else. And I think that sometimes is what gets
you to success faster. Yeah, for sure. Well, if there's
(24:33):
one thing all these conversations had in common, it was
the idea that leadership is really about growth and service,
pushing yourself to learn and supporting others to do their
best work. And with that being said, we want to
thank you so much for listening. And for supporting leading
by example. If you're feeling inspired by these clips, please
go back and listen to the full conversations in season
(24:54):
one because each episode has so much more to offer,
and stay tuned. We're working hard on season two with
even more incredible guests and stories about designing your life
and your career on your own terms. Make sure you're
following the show wherever you're listening now so you don't
miss it. And if you've enjoyed the show, he's considered
leading a review. It really helps others find us as always,
(25:15):
you can find me on Instagram at Farnush Charabi and
I host the So Many podcast three days a week.
Thanks for joining. This podcast is a production of iHeartRadio's
Ruby Studio. Our executive producer is Matt Stillo and our
supervising producer is Nikiah Swinton. This podcast was edited by
Sierra Spreen
Movie. It's Farnushcharabi. Welcome back to Leading by Example. We're
in between seasons right now, but today we wanted to
share something a little different instead of an interview, I'm
here with our producer Kia to talk about some of
our favorite moments from the first season. Hey, Kia, Hey
(00:26):
for our news. It's great to be back with you again. Yeah,
going down memory lane. We've picked out some clips and
insights that really kind of stuck with us and I
think our listeners too, And we think these will also
show the different ways to approach leadership. And if you're
new here, this is a perfect way to sample what
the show's all about. And if you've been with us
(00:46):
from the start, thank you. Consider it a highlight reel
of lessons worth hearing again. So let's get into it.
So we started this season off with Will Pearson, president
of the iHeart Podcast Network. He had such an interesting
perspective on what it means to actually empower creators, especially
(01:06):
underrepresented voices in podcasting, and it was one of those
moments that really reminded me why I personally love this medium.
Take a listen.
Speaker 2 (01:17):
So what we're in effect trying to do is to
fund and support startups within a large organization so that
when Charlemagne, the god legendary host of the Breakfast Club
or co host of the Breakfast Club comes along and says,
I think it's time to start a network dedicated to
black voices because of the incredible underrepresentation in the podcast space.
When he came to us in twenty twenty and express that,
(01:40):
we said, well, now is the time to do this.
Let's give it a shot, and to give him the resources,
but in some ways to also step out of the
way and to not get in the way of a
creator or a visionary trying to create their thing. We
know that we have the toolkit to help a podcast
network or an individual podcast succeed through marketing and the
megaphone that we have here at iHeart, but we also
(02:01):
know we want to invest in and believe in creators
to see through their vision.
Speaker 1 (02:07):
That was Will Pearson, president of the iHeart podcast network. Kiya.
You know, I just really remembered him as being somebody
who was so open to not only hearing from his
creators in the network, but allowing them to roam free,
experiment with ideas, really trusting them. He gave the example
(02:28):
of let's say Charlottagne, the God comes to me with
an idea, giving that artist, that creator the runway to
go and do that. It's not for nothing. I mean,
I think we're living in a world where we don't
have necessarily always at freedom when we're working with a
big corporation.
Speaker 3 (02:43):
Absolutely, I feel like that's something that like, I'm sure
you can relate to being a creator. And I was
independent podcasting before Eikeen. iHeart so really value creators. I
always keep that in consideration working full time in podcasting
and thinking about working with creators, which is one of
my favorite parts of the job is always looking at
talent and seeing what's authentic. And I really think the
(03:04):
audience can always relate to that, like it's just hard
to fake being authentic. And I think it's just something
that every company needs to remember, especially when they're working
with creators, because if you had someone like Charlotte, me
and the God doing something completely out of his realm,
like that's not going to translate to the audience. So
I think it's a good lesson that will has and
something that everyone can definitely take into account, whether it's
(03:28):
finance or politics. It's just so important to connect to
your audience, to be authentic.
Speaker 1 (03:33):
Yeah, translated really well to all sorts of industries. All right, Well,
next up is Shannon Skuyler from PwC talking about inclusion
in a very clear eyed way in our time together.
She challenged the idea that DEI can just be quote
unquote solved by a program or a department and really
(03:54):
put the focus on everyday interactions.
Speaker 4 (04:00):
The department can't solve for diversity, equity inclusion that actually
happens on the ground with the people you interact with
every single day, whether your colleague, your supervisor, your client.
And we're trying to determine how do you bring that
more and not just say here's a couple of programs
that will solve for this, because your programs aren't going
to solve for it. So how does the culture and
(04:22):
the environment really become more inclusive to do that on
its own?
Speaker 1 (04:27):
And we should mention Shannon Skyler came on the show
after the election, so we know what's happened since right
there are a lot of industries, a lot of individual
companies that have sort of done away with their D
and I. They are changing the names of their programs,
they don't want to be targeted for promoting, believe it
or not, diversity, equity, and inclusion. I really appreciate it
(04:49):
Shannon Schuyler's I don't about say bravery, but sort of
like she has a no nonsense approach to this, which
is that this is everyone's job. This is a job,
this is an important job, an important role, and as
a leader, she's of the mind that she couldn't possibly
be the one, the one person to have you know,
all the answers are to say, Okay, this is the
(05:09):
program that we're all going to plug into and practice
and we'll solve all of our d and I concerns.
That inclusion is lived in every interaction, not just a policy.
So kudos to Shannon Skuyler for first just coming on
our show to tackle this in this current political climate,
and then to be bold with her vision and her
(05:31):
ideas around it.
Speaker 3 (05:32):
Yeah, it's such a timely topic and it's just so
interesting because she made a good point how maybe after
George Floyd doing twenty twenty in the pandemic, that all
these companies went like extreme to be like diversity and
like how can we make up for this? And then
five years later it's going extreme opposite, and it's like
really about finding that balance, which I think is in
(05:53):
any way, you know, you could talk about the economy
in certain ways and not to get political about how
people voted for Obama and then went to the extreme
and voted for Trump. Like there's a lot of crossover
with that. So I think like taking that into account
with your company culture or anything you want to solve,
you can't just go like fool on one hundred percent
and then like take it back and be like, why
is it anything working? Yeah, I think she had like
(06:14):
a great approach to be like this is such a
personal experience and we need to shape the culture and
we can't just like hand out a program and slap
a number on something or slap a title on something.
Speaker 1 (06:25):
Like it really takes a lot of effort and work.
Speaker 3 (06:28):
And I think it goes back to like that's another
form of being authentic, and people can see that their
leaders are not being authentic once they just go to
one extreme and then the other. So I really love
that Shannon brought that up. And I also loved her
personal journey of being at PwC for like, what was
it like eighteen years?
Speaker 1 (06:44):
Right, I was gonna say that, yeah, not for nothing.
But she's had not only that longevity at PwC, but
has worked in so many different capacities. So I think
reinforcing her thought leadership around this. You know, she's seen
it all, she's done it all, and she has endured
many cycles of economies and business and trends, and I think, again,
(07:07):
really grateful that she was able to come on the show.
Next up is Kathleen Griffith. We had Kathleen on the show,
founder of Grace and Coe, who gave an incredibly personal
take on self awareness in leadership and I loved how
she broke down the work of really knowing yourself in
order to lead others. She's also an incredible advocate for
women and women in the workplace. Here's Kathleen Griffith.
Speaker 5 (07:33):
Ninety percent of who we are is completely subconscious. It
is all buried under the surface, and in my opinion,
to be a great leader, you have to uncover all
that lies underneath, What triggers you, what excites you, who
you really are as a leader, who you really are
as a person. And I think part of the problem
(07:55):
is that so many people are leading others without truly
knowing themselves.
Speaker 1 (08:02):
Yeah, what could be something if more leaders went to therapy.
That's my takeaway here. She didn't actually say therapy, but
I was like, you're talking about a therapist, right, Absolutely.
Speaker 3 (08:14):
I feel like there's so much therapy speak and like
our culture now and like social media, but honestly, when
the right people do therapy, it does work.
Speaker 1 (08:24):
Wonders.
Speaker 3 (08:25):
This is probably like my favorite, So I don't know
if I'm not to have favors, so this.
Speaker 1 (08:27):
Was probably my favorite.
Speaker 3 (08:28):
I think Kathleen gave us so many great insights and
I just love the psychology she brought into it and
how to really be a better person. And I always
think that, like, to be honest, it's incredibly selfish not
to better yourself because we all have to coexist. So
when you're not being a better person and you're not
like checking yourself, everyone else around you suffers. So it's
(08:50):
so important that if you want to lead people like
you really have to do the internal work and therapists
can't fix you overnight. Like you also have to do
the work with a therapist. So yeah, if you're going
to therapy, remember that.
Speaker 1 (09:01):
I never thought of it like that, Like you're being
kind of selfish when you're not doing the work, especially
if you're the kind of person who wants to be
a leader, right, Like you want to not have therapy
and be unevolved. I never leave your house, great, fine,
but as soon as you step outside, and on top
of that, you're like, I want to be your boss.
Yeah exactly, but I don't want to evolve. I don't
(09:22):
want to understand and unpack my feelings. Yeah, that's problematic.
So thanks for Kathleen for reminding us some good old
therapy can go a very long way in leadership. And
if you're not into therapy, I mean, look, she even
talked about just like being more introspective, journaling, taking time
to do things that are outside your comfort zone outside
of work, because I think that's also very easy to do,
(09:44):
is just be especially when you're desiring a leadership role
that you're just work work, work, work, work, right, But
being a good leader is being well rounded. Yeah, speaking
of well rounded, Navin Jane, serial entrepreneur, came on the show.
He is currently CEO of viol but he's held so
many other CEO roles. He had such a provocative take
(10:05):
on expertise and why sometimes not being the expert can
actually be your superpower, your advantage. Take a listen.
Speaker 6 (10:16):
My feeling is the day you become an expert in
any subject, any industry, you become useless or I would
say incrementalists in that industry.
Speaker 1 (10:27):
That means the best you can be.
Speaker 6 (10:28):
Is ten percent better than anyone else in the industry,
but you'll never be ten times better. To be ten
times better, you have to challenge the foundation of everything
that expert has taken it for granted. And that's the
fundamental problem is non experts come along challenge everything that
you have taken it for granted, completely, rethink and recreate
(10:50):
and reinvent the industry, and the whole industry gets disrupted.
And that, to me is really the power of thinking
like a naive person.
Speaker 1 (11:01):
Navin Jane, CEO of Yome, also a billionaire. I would
put that in my LinkedIn profile if I was a billionaire.
Speaker 3 (11:08):
I feel like that's worthy of a bullet But do
you think it's like targeted too? Like do you think
people would target you if you said, like, I'm a billionaire.
Speaker 1 (11:16):
That's true, but you know there are lists. It's hard
to hide when you're a billionaire. That's true. It's hard
to hide, for sure. But I loved this interview and
it doesn't come so much through this clip, but I
really encourage everyone to go back and listen because Naven,
we weren't in the same room, but we could see
each other. Such a happy, optimistic guy. Again, could be
the billions, I'm not sure, more money, more problems, but
(11:39):
also more happiness I think when you get to the
billion dollar level. But I think he's had this from
birth because he wasn't someone who came from means at all,
like he talked about growing up in poverty in India.
Brilliant bright Man came to the US and quickly kind
of got absorbed by industry here. I mean, he's so smart.
It was also during like tech boom and all of that,
(12:01):
so he's worked with greats like Bill Gates, and so
no surprise that he became very successful because he is
such a brilliant mind. But also I think like a
guy that I want to hang out with, have a
coffee with, because he just has so many stories but
has such this positive take on life, which I think
after maybe being a serial entrepreneur, you know, you could
(12:23):
get a little hardened absolutely after a while running one business,
let alone many is very difficult. Yeah, that seems really tiring.
Speaker 3 (12:31):
And he's the type of person that gets up at
like four am and doesn't work out and all that
stuff so much.
Speaker 1 (12:36):
Zest for life so much.
Speaker 3 (12:38):
And I will say Kathleen's episode was my favorite, but
Navine was the most interesting person maybe I've ever met.
I don't know.
Speaker 1 (12:45):
He was so interesting.
Speaker 3 (12:47):
It was so exciting to hear his takes on everything
and how like he challenges himself to like not be
stagnant and always looking to build another business, and his
thought process of like you have to do good in
the world. I loved when he said, like money doesn't
make you a bad person or something. He was like,
those people are already bad people. Money just like elevated.
Speaker 1 (13:09):
Yeah, we agreed on that. So having worked in personal
finance for so long, I've developed this inkling, which is
that someone who arrives at money, a lot of money,
let's say, and suddenly is like very generous or contraste,
very greedy. Like the money didn't make them that way.
Money is just a tool. It was in them always
(13:31):
to be that person. And I think you can be
generous and greedy without money, right, you can be generous
with your time with your compassion, and you can also
be very greedy with your time and your lack of compassion.
And essentially, the thesis is that more money makes you
more of who you really are. Oh wow, isn't that
something I think it's worthy of a debate. But I
(13:51):
was excited to know that I and a billionaire shared that. Vie,
you have the billionaire minds. I guess, yeah, there's hope
for me. Yeah, We'll be right back. Next up, my
(14:13):
friend Claude Silver joined us on the pod chief Heart
Officer a vayner X. She spoke to the humanside of
leadership in our time together, and she talks about building
a culture that feels kind and connected but also ambitious.
Take a listen.
Speaker 7 (14:31):
The eye has to be on the prize, and the
prize is, yes, having a healthy culture and having people
that want to work and that make friends that I'm
devoted to in a place that's kind and there's camaraderie,
but I'm also devoted to being successful. I want everyone
to be able to get the rays that they're looking
for and to get the promotion. But that only happens
when the organism is working together. It takes a village.
Speaker 1 (14:54):
Yes, it takes a village. That was Claude Silver, Chief
Heart Officer A vayner X And firstly, I love Claude.
She's been a friend for years, and I just knew
she was going to bring so much important wisdom to
the show around the value of kindness at work in
a world when we can feel like everything is so transactional,
(15:16):
everything can be hurtful, sometimes insensitive. And she said, I
think when she was growing up her nickname was Heart.
Her grandmother called her Heart. Yeah, so now fast forward today,
that's actually in her professional title, and that was not
always her goal, Like no one wakes up going one
day I'd like to be a Chief Heart Officer. She
talked also about being very lost in her twenties, not
(15:37):
knowing what she wanted to pursue. So I thought that
was really relatable.
Speaker 3 (15:40):
Yeah, you could just tell, like Claude has such a
great spirit. It just comes off so well. And it
takes a village, as something we always hear mostly with
like raising kids, I feel like, but it really does
take a village for like anything to be successful, Like
you need community in your life, and you need community
and your work spot as well. And I love that
she said, being like heart officer, leading with the heart
(16:02):
is not soft, it's really essential. And at the end
of the day, I think we're all people, and I
think we need to realize that none of us were
asked to put on this earth, but we are on
this earth, and we do need to co exist, and
we need to just remember to have empathy. And I
do think if leaders lead with empathy, it's just gonna
work so much better in their favor.
Speaker 1 (16:20):
Yeah, there's studies now that show how financially important it
is to be empathetic a work, and I know that
some people, for them, whether they're going to pursue one
path over another, comes down to the dollars and cents
of it. And guess what, There is real value not
just sort of social value, but financial value in being
(16:40):
a kind and empathetic person at work and practicing that
at work. It's also contagious. Empathy is contagious. I learned
that from a really important book called The War for Kindness.
Jamie Zaki, Stanford scientist, wrote a book about building empathy
in a fractured world. There's more bodies of work coming
out about this and science behind this. I think it's
a great place to be doing some research. Oh yeah,
(17:01):
I'm definitely gonna take a look at this. It looks
really great. Next up, we had Marissa Thalberg on the
show CCO and CMO of Catalyst Brands. She shared an
honest take on trust and authenticity and leadership. She talked
about not infantilizing your team and treating people like adults. Amen,
take a listen. My leadership style is to be real
(17:26):
about it.
Speaker 8 (17:26):
I really don't like when leaders have made me feel
like they're infantilizing you. Of course, it doesn't mean everyone
needs to know everything at all times. But trust comes
out of authenticity. And that's true for me as a
marketer and how I build a relationship with consumers. It's
also true for me as a leader and how I
(17:47):
build relationships with teams and colleagues.
Speaker 1 (17:52):
She's talking about this in the context I believe we
were talking about the many different kinds of cmos or
marketing roles she's had at various companies and different industries.
You know, she just has had like such a diverse
range of corporate experience, and she's like, look, I don't
have all the answers all the time, and my job
(18:13):
when I start a new job is not to like
pretend like I know everything. It's actually to be curious,
ask questions, do some research, because that's only how I'll
actually perform well at this job. And then the question was,
you know there's people that are not rooting for you
when you arrive at a job and they're like, how
are you doing this? You are in a different industry.
How do you kind of balance showing that you are
(18:35):
an expert but also that you know you're being strategically curious.
I guess. And her answer to that question, well, you'll
have to listen to get the whole spiel, but it
was a good answer.
Speaker 3 (18:45):
Yeah, this was such a great episode. And we've talked
about authenticy a lot, but it's so important and it's
so important for leadership, and it's scary taking on a
new job, especially if you're in a different industry. But
I think there's a balance, like me said, of you know,
not just coming in and changing everything, but also like
being curious and asking those questions.
Speaker 1 (19:06):
All right, moving on to Danielle Weisberg and Carly Zaken.
You may know their names. They have the co founders
and co CEOs of the Skim and they have been
through it all. They actually recently sold their company, and
they talked a little bit about the road to that,
the really hard days as leaders and having to put
(19:29):
on your game face during those hard times. Take a listen.
Speaker 9 (19:36):
It was such a hard moment to like have a
disappointing work day where you just kind of want to
cry and like tell your friend or whomever, and then
also have to go out and then be in front
of the team and be like, everything's fine, lunch is here,
and not let them know. And I think those moments
are the ones that make you strong. They're the ones
(19:56):
where you learn to have a game face. They're the
ones where you learn what's a big problem versus a
solvable problem, and also learn what kind of partners you
want around the table with you.
Speaker 1 (20:07):
You know, I asked the co founders, Zaken and Weisberg,
knowing what you know now having had this acquisition thirteen years,
I think into the business, what would you do differently?
And Danielle Weisberg said, everything that was intended to be
a cliffhanger. You need to go back and listen to
that episode to hear why she said that.
Speaker 3 (20:28):
Yeah, I feel like most people wouldn't say that most
people be like, I wouldn't change a thing.
Speaker 1 (20:32):
It was all meant to be.
Speaker 3 (20:34):
Yeah, everything happens for a reason. But she had such
an honest answer and I respect that, Like, yeah, if
I knew things differently, like I would change it. And
they've had such an expiring story, Like I've always been
a huge fan of the skim'll subscribe to it, like
writing college. And I always thought it was interesting how they,
you know, worked at NBC and was like, we're never
(20:55):
going to get promoted unless someone dies because it's such
an old company. I remember they said that in an
interview and I was like, WHOA that really like shaped
my experience. I'm like thinking about what job's to get
because I'm like I don't want to have to wait
till someone dies to get promoted. But I love that
they carved their own path to really connect with an
audience or really stayed true to like connecting with young women,
(21:15):
and like you could really tell that they just are
really passionate about that, and I really admire that.
Speaker 1 (21:20):
Yeah, you know, and they've been through so much together
as business owners but also as friends and then as mothers,
And every time I think of them, I just think,
like They're the real deal and they did it, and
I'm so happy to see that they have this new
chapter for the skim all right. Last, but not least,
Ryan Surhant came on leading by example. He is the
(21:41):
founder of Sir Hant, the Mega real Estate Empire. You
may also know him from his Bravo days, maybe before that,
his hand modeling days. Yes, that is true. In this clip,
Ryan talks about flexibility in leadership, and I really loved
his admission that he doesn't always like new ideas at first,
(22:01):
but he's willing to change his mind. Take a listen.
Speaker 10 (22:06):
I go into a lot of meetings with my staff, okay,
and they've got lots of ideas, and I don't like
most of them until like two weeks later I decide
I do because I learn new things, new information. I
reserve the right to change my mind. I am not
a stubborn I try not to be anyway a stubborn leader.
Where my way is the highway. I think our growth
is indicative of my listening to smarter people about their
(22:30):
specific niches, and I try to find people who are
uniquely qualified to do what they do.
Speaker 1 (22:38):
Yeah, it kind of echoes a little bit of Naviene
Jane's ideas around not pretending like you're the expert and
that you don't have to be an expert in everything,
that you lean on your team and hopefully you've cultivated
the right team or some of the right people to
lead you down smarter and better paths. And I also
appreciate that he's anti rigidity. I think, you know, as humans,
(23:01):
we like boundaries, we like rules, They're important, but sometimes
we have to break them. We have to break our
own rules. We have to surprise ourselves and be willing
to show that in front of our team and our employees,
to say, like, you know, I was wrong about that,
because who's not wrong a lot?
Speaker 3 (23:16):
Yeah, yeah, I know, that's so good. I love how
he also talked about like reserving the right to change
your mind, like we're all humans hopefully, like we said,
we're all evolving and we all, you know, will change
our mind eventually. And I think we can all respect
a leader who's like, hey, actually I thought it was
this way, but really maybe we could do it this way.
(23:37):
And like, yeah, I feel like that goes for like
opinions people. You know, we're all evolving, so like you
shouldn't have the same mindset at like twenty four versus
fifty four, I would hope and Ryan Sarhant moves quick.
Speaker 1 (23:50):
So I think that where some people might wallow in
the fact that, oh I had it wrong and now
I have to pivot, and with that comes maybe some
shape or an admission that I had it wrong. And
there's that that I have to carry with me into
this and people are going to be doubting me. It's like,
I feel like this is the pace. It's like, oh
that's wrong or oh that is actually right. Let's move,
(24:12):
let's do it like. He doesn't waste time, he doesn't
sit in whatever that is that we all can get
stuck in, you know, that wallowing in that misstep, decisiveness, indecisiveness. Right,
he keeps moving and that means he fails faster than
anyone else. And I think that sometimes is what gets
you to success faster. Yeah, for sure. Well, if there's
(24:33):
one thing all these conversations had in common, it was
the idea that leadership is really about growth and service,
pushing yourself to learn and supporting others to do their
best work. And with that being said, we want to
thank you so much for listening. And for supporting leading
by example. If you're feeling inspired by these clips, please
go back and listen to the full conversations in season
(24:54):
one because each episode has so much more to offer,
and stay tuned. We're working hard on season two with
even more incredible guests and stories about designing your life
and your career on your own terms. Make sure you're
following the show wherever you're listening now so you don't
miss it. And if you've enjoyed the show, he's considered
leading a review. It really helps others find us as always,
(25:15):
you can find me on Instagram at Farnush Charabi and
I host the So Many podcast three days a week.
Thanks for joining. This podcast is a production of iHeartRadio's
Ruby Studio. Our executive producer is Matt Stillo and our
supervising producer is Nikiah Swinton. This podcast was edited by
Sierra Spreen
Host
Farnoosh Torabi
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