February 20, 2025 • 38 mins
In our premiere episode, Farnoosh Torabi sits down with Will Pearson, President of the iHeart Podcast Network, to uncover how his personal journey and core beliefs guided his path from college entrepreneur to podcast industry pioneer. Pearson reveals how his early experiences—launching a company from his Duke University dorm room—instilled leadership principles that still drive his decision-making today as he oversees the world's largest podcast network. Through candid conversation, he shares the deeply personal insights that informed pivotal choices throughout his career, from identifying the right business partner to making an early, conviction-driven leap into podcasting. Pearson opens up about how each phase of his journey—including building partnerships with creative forces like Will Ferrell and Shonda Rhimes—refined his leadership philosophy and shaped iHeart's innovative approach to podcast advertising that's transforming the industry.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:03):
Ruby.
Speaker 2 (00:07):
We know that we have the toolkit to help a
podcast network or an individual podcast succeed through marketing and
the megaphone that we have here at iHeart, But we
also know we want to invest in and believe in
creators to see through their vision. We've tried to do
that with so many others, whether that's with Bloomberg and business,
Will Ferrell and comedy, Shonda Rhimes in the creative space,
(00:28):
the NFL, or NBA, and sports.
Speaker 1 (00:30):
Our job is to help these.
Speaker 2 (00:32):
Great organizations and creators bring these ideas to life. So
it's been fun to be able to organize that way.
We don't always get it right, but in its best execution,
that's the way we try to organize.
Speaker 3 (00:43):
We just heard from Will Pearson, the president of the
iHeart podcast network, where he's responsible for the growth strategy
of Iheart's original podcast content, which can't be an easy job,
especially as we're entering a more crowded marketplace for podcasting.
Well hear how Will and his team managed to make
iHeart stand down to consumers and how the company has
become revolutionary with their podcast advertising strategy and Iheart's commitment
(01:07):
to giving creatives the space and resources they need to
share important stories. This is leading by example, executives making
an impact. I'm furnished to Robbie and I'm excited.
Speaker 4 (01:18):
To take this journey with you as your host.
Speaker 3 (01:20):
I know what you might be thinking, but this is
not just another interview podcast about founders and CEOs. We're
going past the pr and into the personal stuff and
how their lived experiences shape leadership. The workplace, as you know,
is going through a massive transformation. Everything from how we
define work life balance to what we expect from our
leaders and companies is evolving in front of us in
(01:42):
real time. And my goal with this podcast is to
bring you real guidance, actionable insights, and the truth about
the roles we can all play in shaping the future
of work. I tell you this is a front row
seat behind the scenes to innovation and strong leadership across industries,
and that is certainly in the case with our first guest,
Will Pearson. Will's career began in his dorm room at
(02:05):
Duke University, where he co founded the digital media publication
Mental Flaws. It started as a campus magazine and as
journey led him to How Stuff Works, hosting the Part
Time Genius podcast and launching some of today's most innovative
podcast slates. Will Pearson, Welcome to the show.
Speaker 1 (02:22):
Thanks for noush. It's good to be with you.
Speaker 3 (02:24):
I'm looking forward to hearing so much about your career,
come up ins, your influence in the media world. But first,
I just want to know what you were like as
a kid. Were there inklings of the empire you were
going to build as a young one?
Speaker 4 (02:39):
Is there a.
Speaker 3 (02:39):
Story that captures even if it's just like the curiosity
that you had. Because I find you to be a
very curious person, I don't think it's inconsequential who we become.
Speaker 2 (02:50):
So I would say the early part of my career
probably could have been predicted because I was a list
maker an organizer, and I don't know why. I love
learning things and then I loved being able to compile
those in my own organized way. So it was this
combination of I suppose, curiosity and OCD that led me
(03:11):
to create these files.
Speaker 1 (03:12):
And I'm not even kidding when I say this.
Speaker 2 (03:14):
I had files in a desk at my house when
I was like ten years old, where it'd be like
the interesting history facts that I've learned, the interesting science
facts that I've learned whatever it may have been, but
I just loved consuming this knowledge. I didn't exactly know why.
I didn't know what I was going to do with
it. It eventually paid off in some way with the first
business we started out of college. But I guess that
(03:35):
would have been an early hint that this might have
been a path for me.
Speaker 3 (03:38):
You kind of were into executive functioning before it was
age appropriate.
Speaker 1 (03:43):
H Yeah, So fast.
Speaker 4 (03:45):
Forward to Duke.
Speaker 3 (03:46):
Now you're at Duke University and you get an idea
to start I guess a magazine.
Speaker 1 (03:52):
Yeah, that's exactly right.
Speaker 3 (03:54):
Was it always the intention was to start this magazine
that would have a life beyond college?
Speaker 2 (04:00):
It was we didn't necessarily communicate that. So there was
a young man by the name of mungesh A Ticketer.
The two of us were classmates together. We'd known each
other since our first year at Duke, and in the evenings,
groups of friends would sort of crowd into one room
and just kind of hang out and start talking about
things that we may have heard in a class. Again,
maybe one more hint that we were just a little
(04:22):
bit on the nerdy side. But we would get together
in our dorm rooms and just talk about things that
were of venturous to us, and this idea came up
that one person in the room might be an astronomy major,
another person in the room is an econ major, and
another person in the room is a literature major. And
the idea that we could each learn a little bit
from each other is really what inspired the idea for
(04:44):
the magazine Mental Flaws. The whole concept was, how wouldn't
it be great to be able to learn a little
bit from every single one of these departments here on campus.
You're at a liberal arts institution celebrating general knowledge. Let's
come up with a way that people can learn a
little bit of everything, but also blend it with entertainment
and trivia, so that every time you experience an issue
(05:07):
of the magazine, you'd walk away feeling a little bit smarter,
but with a smile on your face. And so we
started it there and distributed a couple of issues on
campus at Duke, and then decided to take it outside
of Duke as well. Of course, we had no idea,
We had no background in the publishing industry in any
sort of meaningful way, and I honestly think that's part
(05:27):
of why it worked.
Speaker 1 (05:28):
You know, we were too naive and too.
Speaker 2 (05:30):
Young to know the rules of the publishing industry and
how hard it was to start a magazine's supposed to
think about it. We launched in two thousand and one,
not exactly the best time to be launching any business,
much less a magazine, but it was something we felt
very strongly about.
Speaker 4 (05:46):
So pretty quickly.
Speaker 3 (05:47):
It sounds that when you started Mental Floss at Duke
it got a great reception. It seemed like there's a
business here. At what point did you realize I want
to do this professionally beyond college? Were there are other
pathways you considered, other career routes you considered?
Speaker 2 (06:04):
There were none that were super clear. I didn't know
exactly what I wanted to do. I was a history major,
so I think my only options were to go into
academia or start my own thing. Right but now, and
I don't really feel that way. I'm a big proponent
of a liberal arts education. But I guess it was
in my third year, my junior year at Duke, when
(06:25):
we started this and really knew the path was, let's
try to take this beyond the campus and make this
our full time gigs. Of course, what it meant at
that point was just getting this off the ground, working
part time jobs while still in college and just doing
whatever we could to make some extra money to get
things started.
Speaker 3 (06:42):
What did those early days teach you about leadership?
Speaker 4 (06:45):
Did you consider yourself.
Speaker 3 (06:47):
A CEO or a leader at that point or you
just kind of like a builder and an engineer and
wearing all the.
Speaker 2 (06:54):
Hats a little bit more of the ladder. I was
running the team, but at the same time was a
very small team at that point. But I think that
was such a critical moment for learning at that stage.
You know, it's funny to think back about the designing
and the creation of some of those first issues, because
(07:14):
fast forwarding to this point, anybody that wants to create
a magazine or design something has all the tools on
their computer. At that point, though there were no joke
like five computers on campus that had the right tools
to design a magazine. There are plenty of computers, but
the ones that had the actual programs to be able
to design a magazine. And so there were other campus
(07:34):
publications and you'd have to sign up for time slots,
and so we would sign up for these time slots
in the student center that might be like eleven pm
to three am, because that's when we could all get together.
And even though I wasn't the designer of the magazine,
I think one of the early lessons was learning the
importance of being present and being present during difficult times
(07:57):
and being present when the hard work is being done.
And so we would of course have all of these
articles that were submitted in all the content that was
coming together, and then it was time to be able
to sit down together and decide what was going on
what page and how the design was looking. And I
felt that it was important for both of us from
Ungesh and for myself to be there during that time,
(08:19):
even if we weren't guiding where every article was going.
There was something about that, and I think it was
an early lesson learned and I saw it in other mentors,
and so I've tried to carry that forward to be
present when our teams are dealing with difficult challenges, even
if I'm not always the one that's making the ultimate
decision on those things.
Speaker 3 (08:36):
Yeah, there's a sense of accountability and I think that
is really appreciated from everybody else on the team because
we tend to work in silos and well, it wasn't
my job, and that wasn't my job, right, That's right.
Speaker 4 (08:48):
You also hit the jackpot in mangesh.
Speaker 1 (08:50):
Yes.
Speaker 3 (08:51):
You know, it's one thing to have a good roommate
that's hard enough in college, or a friend, but that
he ended up also being a really great business partner
and a co pilot. Looking back, maybe only in hindsight, now,
you know what made that relationship really click.
Speaker 1 (09:04):
Well, first of all, it was a friendship.
Speaker 2 (09:06):
We had a couple of mutual friends early in college
and that really brought us more closely together. But then
I think it was the recognition of complimentary skill sets.
You know, he's one of the most creative people I've
ever been around, and you really want to find in
a business partner somebody that compliments your strengths and helps
make up for your weaknesses, and I think we did
(09:27):
that for each other. You know, he brought the incredible
creativity and then just the ability to have.
Speaker 1 (09:33):
A vision for what we were trying to create.
Speaker 2 (09:36):
And I was more on the strategy side and more
on the pow are we actually going to get out
on the world and build this? And how are we
going to communicate about this? One of the best ways
to illustrate. This was even the name itself when we
were trying to think of the name of this magazine,
and I bet it came up with more than one
hundred terrible names until he just said, why don't we
call it Mental Flaws. And on the one hand, you
(09:58):
just want to celebrate that, because that was exactly what
what it needed to be called, because it sounded smart,
It sounded like something that celebrated knowledge, but also communicated
that it didn't take itself too seriously, that it was playful,
and so there was something about that that was both
exciting and also just really frustrating to know that on
one of his first tries he was like, you know what,
this is what we should call it, stroke of genius,
(10:19):
and that's just what he does time and again. So yeah,
we worked together at Mental Floss all the way through
selling the magazine I guess that was in twenty eleven
to Dennis Publishing out of the UK, and stayed on
to continue working there for a few more years.
Speaker 3 (10:36):
You left Mental Floss to pursue podcasting in twenty seventeen,
still very early days of this medium. What was it
about podcasting that excited you, that made you think there
is something here, and I think there's even some staying
power because a little fun fact and you know this,
but maybe our audience doesn't. But podcasting in twenty seventeen
was sort of podcasting two point zero. There was an
(10:58):
initial era of podcasting before or the iPhone came to
the scene, and it was sort of native to the iPod,
but it was so converse and we had to download
it before you left work to listen to it.
Speaker 4 (11:08):
On the subway.
Speaker 3 (11:09):
It didn't take right, but it wasn't until like streaming
and Wi Fi became more ubiquitous that podcasting two point
zero kind of took off. And that's when you arrived
on the scene and now you thought, this is the moment.
Speaker 2 (11:21):
Yeah, but it was still in that early stage, and
that's what was most appealing to us. You know, when
we were at Mental Floss and when we sold it
in twenty eleven, we had said to ourselves, you know, look,
we want to stay here as long as it feels
like a startup, as long as it feels like we
are building a thing that is in.
Speaker 1 (11:39):
The entrepreneurship phase.
Speaker 2 (11:41):
Once that stops and once a business is in sort
of maintenance or slow growth mode, we'd probably be ready
to move on to the next thing, and that moment
started to come in about twenty fifteen or so, and
then we started having conversations with how Stuff Works or
Stuff Media about the possibility of leaving to come on
(12:01):
board and start a podcast, but really with the bigger
goal of helping them spin off from their parent company
and see what we could do with it as a
podcast company. Here's a super interesting company and how Stuff Works,
which by coincidence, most of their subject matter was very
complimentary and in alignment with what we were doing at
Mental Floss with shows like stuff you should know, Stuff
(12:24):
you missed in history class, tech stuff, and we thought,
you know, we can combine two things here, one the
background that we have in these creation of general knowledge products,
but to this idea of being able to jump in
into a very young space and see what can happen.
And I guess it was about a year and a
half later with the team there, we were able to
(12:45):
sell How Stuff Works to iHeart.
Speaker 3 (12:48):
And now a really big playing field at iHeart you
have launched many amazing programming there and I'm just curious,
you said, you like sort of like the startup, You're
like a startup leader. You like that playing field, and
now you're at a bigger company like iHeart. What's your
approach to leadership and innovation? Is it any different?
Speaker 1 (13:09):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (13:10):
I actually think my background and also the background of
our CEO of the digital half of iHeart, Connell Burn,
he also came from Stuff Media. Both of us had
been and lived in the startup space, and I actually
think it's really given us a lot of guidance as
we think about leading larger companies because the way that
(13:30):
we actually try to organize iHeart Podcasts, you could step
back from that and say, Okay, we've got nine hundred
podcasts and really think about it as this one cumulative entity.
And of course we do that in the marketplace to
some extent, but that's not really the way I look at.
Speaker 1 (13:48):
It and our best execution.
Speaker 2 (13:50):
What we are as a division that has maybe twenty
or twenty five different teams or slates or networks and
themselves that get to operate somewhat independently, get to create
their own ideas, get to create many of their own
marketing plans, but then have the ability to tap into
the resources of a much larger organization. So what we're
(14:12):
in effect trying to do is to fund and support
startups within a larger organization so that when Charlemagne, the
god legendary host of the Breakfast Club or co host
of the Breakfast Club comes along and says, I think
it's time to start a network dedicated to black voices
because of the incredible underrepresentation in the podcast space. When
he came to us in twenty twenty and express that,
(14:34):
we so, well, now is the time to do this.
Let's give it a shot, and to give him the resources,
but in some ways to also step out of the
way and to not get in the way of a
creator or a visionary trying to create their thing. We
know that we have the toolkit to help a podcast
network or an individual podcast succeed through marketing and the
megaphone that we have here at iHeart, but we also
(14:55):
know we want to invest in and believe in creators
to see through their vision. We've tried to do that
with so many others, whether that's with Bloomberg and business,
Will Ferrell and comedy Shonda Rhimes, in the creative space,
the NFL, or NBA and sports. Our job is to
help these great organizations and creators bring these ideas to life.
So it's been fun to be able to organize that way.
(15:16):
We don't always get it right, but in its best execution,
that's the way we try to organize.
Speaker 3 (15:21):
Yeah, sometimes it's just let them tell you what's needed.
I think sometimes leaders put the pressure on themselves to
sort of figure it out.
Speaker 1 (15:30):
That's right, and it.
Speaker 3 (15:31):
Doesn't always work, but when it does, you look back
and go that was kind of easy.
Speaker 1 (15:35):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (15:36):
Actually, how do you stay on top of the trends
and ensure iHeartMedia remains ahead of its competitors. It sounds
like one approach is to lean into your experts and
your podcast's hosts who are in it every day and
hearing from their audience.
Speaker 1 (15:53):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (15:53):
I would actually say that is the biggest way is
to be listening to our leadership. So the one part
that I sort of left out there, suppose in organizing
that way is that it is critical that every one
of those teams has an excellent leader that is, in
many respects, the general manager or the president of their
own small podcast company. I would say that almost more
(16:15):
than anything. But the other thing is just listening within
the industry, seeing what shows are launching, seeing what trends
are out there. Seeing what's not out there is part
of it, and that can be a challenge. It's really
easy to follow, Oh, here's a new thing that's happening.
Here's a new thing that's happening. One of the harder
things I think is identifying where the gaps are. So
I guess the only other thing I'd add is we
(16:37):
do try to look at the data as well. I
have a great data and analytics team here at iHeart
that helps us see where those gaps are, and we
look at the trends of listenership, and part of it
is having to identify. Okay, I see that they are
under indexing for listening within podcasts, and we have the
benefit of being part of a network that can actually
address that can actually move the needle because of the
(16:59):
scale coming up.
Speaker 3 (17:01):
After the break, Will and I talk about adapting to
the pandemic, the evolution of podcast advertising, and his advice
to aspiring media professionals.
Speaker 2 (17:10):
The world changed in twenty twenty, and in some respects,
we can't pretend that it's back to being exactly the
same world today that it was before the pandemic. I
think we have to acknowledge that life changed, and we
need to be able to change with the world around us.
Speaker 4 (17:27):
We'll be right back.
Speaker 3 (17:37):
I have a question now, just about your approach to
relating to your teams and your leaders within iHeart given
that the last couple of years, few years have been
very volatile, very challenging from whatever direction you're looking at,
global pandemic, inflation, election cycle, and so the line between
sort of home and work is blurred, and people are
(17:58):
coming to work with a lot of heavy thoughts.
Speaker 4 (18:01):
And I'm sure a lot.
Speaker 3 (18:03):
Of CEOs and leaders in C suite are grappling with
this as well. Just how to foster innovation when everything
feels like it's on fire. How do you foster inspiration too,
because it can be hard going into work with so
many constraints at home.
Speaker 2 (18:20):
Yeah, it's definitely not easy, and I think the first
step is actually just simply acknowledging that in your talent
base or in your employee base, just not pretending that
these things aren't issues and aren't still issues. Right, the
world changed in twenty twenty, and in some respects we
can't pretend that it's back to being exactly the same
(18:42):
world today that it was before the pandemic I think
we have to acknowledge that life changed and we need
to be able to change with the world around us.
But I think it's looking for those opportunities of ways
to innovate even with those situations. And so in some
respects we learned the advantages of being able to create
and operate from home. We had a lot of talent
(19:04):
that weren't working with us before the pandemic, and then
we really learned how to very quickly. When you think
about the hundreds of podcasts that we produce, and then
suddenly we had to be able to produce all of
them remotely and to see a team rally around this,
And actually I shouldn't necessarily call it a distraction, but
in some ways it was during a really difficult time
(19:24):
during the pandemic, to have a team saying, Okay, this
is a new challenge, a new focus. We're going to
figure out how to very rapidly move hundreds and hundreds
of podcasts to remote production. What it opened up for
us was that many talent could only produce remotely. Many
talent only wanted to be remote and recording their podcast
and now that's no longer an issue for us. So
(19:47):
I think part of it is that part of it
is just trying to be in very regular communication with
the team. This actually still goes back to the way
we organize is really leaning into that leadership to say,
you may have a team of ten as opposed to
our team of a couple hundred, I really need for
you to stay in communication with your team and make
(20:09):
sure that if there is any challenge that that's flagged
for us. We tried to get creative in terms of
finding small group communication. Something that I try to do
pretty regularly is have these you know, not a creative name,
but just these coffee talks where we'll take three or
four people from different parts of our podcast team all
get on Zoom together with no agenda other than getting
(20:30):
to know each other for half an hour. We're not
talking about work, we're not talking about our mission at iHeart,
We're just getting to know each other. What are people reading,
what are people watching, what's on their minds with their families?
And I think those moments help bring us together as
people as well. And it's not easy to try to
always find the time to do that for anyone, but
(20:50):
I think it pays off to really build those connections.
Speaker 4 (20:54):
I love that. Well, let's talk about advertising a little bit.
Speaker 3 (20:57):
How has that evolved since when you say started in
twenty seventeen. I know, iHeart just announced its adoption of
unified ID two point zero. Can you talk a little
bit about that and how it's revolutionizing the business.
Speaker 2 (21:10):
Actually, the evolution of advertising in podcasting I find to
be super interesting because when you go back and you
think about some of those early podcasts or even podcasts,
you don't have to go that far back, you go
back six seven years ago, and the podcast advertisers you
were hearing at that point were all what we call
direct response advertisers, right your stamps dot Com, your meal kits,
(21:33):
your mattress companies, your whatever it may have been, that
were all using those discount codes. So the benefit of
those being the primary advertisers that were really building the
industry is you had to prove that they would perform.
You don't continue hearing these advertisers if they're not working.
And so that really built the podcast industry, and there
(21:54):
was a moment where brands started waking up to this
and started realizing, oh wait, if I'm here these same
advertisers over and over and over again. It's because people
are paying attention, and there was something about the intimacy
of that connection between the podcast host and the podcast
listener that was just so incredibly effective. And so brand
(22:16):
started coming on board and saying, we've got to be
a part of this as well. And it was really
exciting for us to be I think at the forefront
of that, especially as we started launching some of these
bigger slates, you know, the Black Effect or Michael Tura
or Big Money Players or even partnering with Malcolm Gladwell's
Pushkin for several years now that we approached it a
(22:37):
bit differently. We said, you know what, for this slate
of shows, we're actually only bringing in five advertisers, five
category exclusive advertisers that will own the entire slate for
their category and be able to be part of what
we're trying to build. Here was a really exciting evolution
for all of this, and the next phase in that
has actually been the ability to reach very specific audiences.
(23:02):
So brands started coming on board, but then certain brands
were saying, you know, this is all great, but actually,
if I'm going to be investing in podcasting, I need
to know that I can reach a critical scale in
doing this, and so that gets to your sort of
the second piece of this, which is the ability to
audience target. If you can target anywhere in digital media,
(23:24):
you can do the same thing in podcasting. And so
part of what we've tried to do is say, Okay,
you're trying to reach you know, women twenty five to
thirty nine, who are moms, who are the have the
following qualifiers. Yes, we can definitely help you do that
through this you know celebrity slate of podcast that we
have right here. However, we can help you do this
(23:46):
at even greater scale across our network of eight hundred
shows by really focusing on the shows and the listeners
that are reaching that audience. And then the next piece
of that has been building more three p sixty ad
per programs to say, okay, be part of the podcast,
be part of the slate. Let's also extend that into
social media. Let's also extend that into video where possible,
(24:09):
or into live events, just to continue building this connection.
There are actually some really interesting statistics around the improved
performance of social media advertising when it follows audio advertising.
So as a compliment to that, so it's been something
just in educating advertisers to help them understand that as
(24:29):
part of a full media program, as part of a
full marketing program, podcasting can be just an incredible complement
to that.
Speaker 3 (24:37):
I think the limitation of the brands in exclusive category
is smart. And also as a podcaster, I really appreciate
when it's just sort of a tight group of brands
that are involved in the show and then you're not
reading mattress ad after a mattress AD. Nothing against the
mattress Ad people, but it just creates a more quality
experience I think for everybody, listeners, producers, everybody, and of
(24:58):
course the sponsor.
Speaker 1 (24:59):
Yeah, that's right. We want to have a balance to that.
Speaker 2 (25:02):
I guess the only other thing I'll add with that
the type of advertising when we mentioned the ability to
reach audiences is it also allowed us to help small
the mid size shows grow because previously a big brand
might come along and say, Okay, those shows are cute,
but like I need scale so to be able to say, okay,
well you're coming into these two or three really big shows,
(25:22):
but then we're going to help give you the backing
of the audience across several others and do have some
of these small the mid size shows. Now having fortune
five hundred companies, you know, running in their shows has
been really exciting for those creators as well.
Speaker 3 (25:36):
Sounds like a lot of work, but also sounds like fun.
How do you maintain a work life balance for yourself?
Speaker 1 (25:41):
Will I'll be completely honest.
Speaker 2 (25:44):
I mean it is one of those things that I
sort of force myself, not even just annually, but probably
every six months to do a little bit of a
reset and say, what is it that I'm going to
do outside of work, whether it's with family, whether it's
with personal interest, to make sure that you're just working
every hour of every day. When you love what you do,
when you love the company that you're working with, it's
(26:05):
really easy to get pulled in that direction. You could
work all the time. It's not good for you. I
don't think it's good ultimately for the company. And so
what I've tried to do is find certain passions that
you can follow. For me, it's been running over the
past several years to use that as not only something
to foster physical health, but really for my own mental health.
To be able to just step away from it all,
(26:26):
put the phone down, start running. Sounds very far as
gumpy of me, and I'm from Alabama, so I'm just
going to say yeah too strongly. But it's been a
big part of my life. This past year, I ran
the New York Marathon for the first time, and I
have just been trying to get out and run as
much as I can, but finding things like that that
can provide a balance to what you're doing day to day.
Speaker 4 (26:46):
Living in Birmingham. How has that worked just logistically with
iHeart based in New York and a lot of the
media world in New York.
Speaker 2 (26:54):
Yeah, you know, iHeart is a super interesting company on
this front. When you think about the fact that we're
really built around one hundred and fifty different markets around
the country. These are radio stations in every single major market,
mid size market, some small markets around the country, and
so we have executive team members who are really all
(27:14):
over the place. It does mean that I'm traveling a
good bit. It means that I'm in New York a
couple times a month, I'm probably in la once a
month or so, and then in other locations as events
or needs come up. But I don't think it's been
a real limiting factor. And I think back to the
sort of work life balance piece of it, and also
just kind of stepping away from the chaos of cities
(27:36):
that I love, but the chaos that can come along
with those cities. I also think too, it's good for
our executive team to be spread a bit because we've
done a lot of studies on this and looked at
what we call sometimes the ignored consumer or the new
American consumer, where you're recognizing that not every consumer, not
every listener that we're trying to reach, is based in
(27:58):
New York and LA and it's easy to sort of
fall into that trap of creating all of your content
specifically for those audiences, while of course there should be
content created for them, we really want to be able
to think about everybody. The fact that iheartreaches ninety ninety
one percent of Americans on a monthly basis, we've got
to be making content for everybody.
Speaker 4 (28:19):
So as we.
Speaker 3 (28:20):
Approach our last few minutes here will I kind of
want to get your wisdom for those in the audience
who are listening and thinking, you know, I want to
pursue a path in media or any industry really, and
I have a lot of ambition. I feel like almost
are running up against a timeline, you know, in the
sense that by the time I'm this age or that age,
I want to have accomplished so much. So much of
(28:41):
what success is is defined by when you achieve that success, right, right,
And I'm just curious, what would you say to that
person who's feeling that strain.
Speaker 4 (28:51):
Did you ever feel this way? Do you have a.
Speaker 3 (28:53):
Timeline in your own head about when you'd like to
achieve certain milestones?
Speaker 2 (28:58):
You know, I think anybody who claims they have no
timeline in their head is probably not telling the truth.
Whether it's a healthy thing for us to do or not.
It's funny that you mentioned this though, because actually just
before this, we were planning out some of what we'll
be doing together with Martha Stewart, who's a great partner
of ours, has a podcast with us. You know, she's,
of course in her early eighties. Everybody's talking about the
(29:20):
new documentary about her, and she's never had a hotter
business moment than right now. Like, it is really exciting
to watch everything that she's accomplishing, and so much of
her success has come from her forties and fifties on
and it's actually been really fun to see that. So
that is true, But at the same time. In terms
of those that are earlier in their career, maybe in
(29:43):
their twenties and thirties, and trying to think about what
they want to do next, they're interested in moving into
the media space. I think there's a couple of things.
I think one is to be consumers of that media.
And I was talking to somebody earlier today who is
passionate about one category in podcasting and is looking into
breaking into podcasting. My recommendation was to also start consuming
(30:04):
content and other categories, to listen to categories that you've
never really thought about before, because it sort of challenges
your idea of what it is to produce a podcast,
to create something new, and so I think it is
very important to try to consume as much as you
possibly can of a variety of things, and then to
also just put yourself in that space. For some people,
(30:25):
I will use podcasting as an example to just launch
your own podcasts. You know, I talk to a lot
of students and a lot of young professionals. There's such
a low barrier to entry, and the only goal shouldn't
be I need thousands or tens of thousands or millions
of listeners. It should be actually be to fine tune
your creative skills and your production skills, and just being
(30:45):
out in the world. The number of people that have
landed jobs or landed podcast gigs because they just started
a thing and they just got it out in the world.
I think it is really important to just try to
do that. And even if it's an entry level job
at a company that you're in interested in. We've seen
that firsthand with people coming into a place like iHeart,
(31:05):
showing how good they are at the job, showing how
passionate they are, and being able to sort of advance
from there. So there's no easy paths to do it,
but I think part of it is just taking that
leap and putting yourself out there to try to get
into the.
Speaker 3 (31:18):
Space, sort of like Will in college is started the
magazine that's right now.
Speaker 1 (31:22):
No idea what you're doing, but you just do it,
just get in the deep end.
Speaker 4 (31:26):
I'm an author.
Speaker 3 (31:26):
I like to ask Guess a lot this kind of question,
and you're an author too, So here here we go,
and we're in the same boat.
Speaker 4 (31:32):
Here.
Speaker 3 (31:32):
If you had to write a memoir or someone was
going to write a biography about Will Pearson, what should
the title be? And maybe we should ask your friend, yes,
your co founder.
Speaker 2 (31:42):
The title whiz, that's probably what the title should be.
Is what should Mangesh call this book? I think it's
going to be it.
Speaker 4 (31:48):
Yeah, what would Mangesh do?
Speaker 2 (31:51):
That's yes, Yes, I've got a bracelet that says it
the whole thing.
Speaker 3 (31:55):
Yeah, that's awesome. And finally, will we're going to ask
all of our guests this. You are no, you're guess,
so you get the first stab at it. But what
does leading by example mean to you?
Speaker 4 (32:06):
Question Mark?
Speaker 2 (32:07):
Yeah, I mean, actually, I think it's nice that we
were able to talk about this a little bit early
in the episode. When leading by example is being there
with the team when they're doing the hard thing and
being a part of that in any way possible, and
not simply being a leader that's sort of passing down
a directive and saying, go do this. It's when you've
(32:27):
got a hard decision or a challenging thing, or a
difficult partner or an advertiser that's frustrated or whatever it
may be. Don't always leave your team to do the work.
Actually get your hands dirty with them and get in
the middle of it. And then they see that and
you and understand that there's really not a task that's
below any one of us, that we're all part of
(32:48):
a team here. To me, that's been the most important
part of how to lead by example in my opinion.
Speaker 3 (32:55):
Will Pearson, thank you so much. You are a great
guest to start with, and we'll be listening.
Speaker 1 (33:02):
Thanks so much for newsh It was great to be
with you.
Speaker 5 (33:06):
Well.
Speaker 4 (33:06):
I liked that. That was a really interesting conversation with Will.
Speaker 3 (33:10):
And I know I'm not the only one who took
away some great points because I have Kia here with
me who's been stinking in on this conversation. She's our
supervising producer on this show. Hi Kia, Hi, So you
have worked under Will and you've attended some of his
coffee talks. Are they as cheesy as he says they sound?
Speaker 4 (33:27):
They're great?
Speaker 5 (33:28):
Let me talk about reality TV when I'm watching.
Speaker 1 (33:30):
It was good.
Speaker 4 (33:31):
It was good to connect.
Speaker 5 (33:32):
You know, Will is in Birmingham, as you discussed, so
we don't always see him face to face in the
New York office, but it was nice to connect with
him and other producers on the team.
Speaker 4 (33:41):
And how long you've been working in podcasting, Kia.
Speaker 5 (33:44):
I've been working in podcasting. I guess technically since like
twenty seventeen.
Speaker 3 (33:50):
So you've been in the mix for a while. You've
been watching the evolution both as like someone who works
in the space but also who's a consumer. Is there
something you really appreciated Will's leadership approach or anything he said?
Speaker 5 (34:02):
Yeah, I think something he touched on. Like we said,
timing is super important. You feel like you're hustling. I mean, yeah,
I came from like a radio kind of podcasting background,
and then I started my independent podcast and then iHeart
actually found me and that's how I got into podcasting
full time. So it's been amazing to see like what
(34:22):
iHeart can do and also how you can create podcasts
as an independent creator, and how I Heart really has
the tools to shape the podcasting slates. So when Will
talked about timing, you know, with how stuff works and
how I Heart really I think is beneficial to the
podcasting world because they got in at the right time.
(34:43):
And I think timing and luck is so important, not
just in podcasting, but like your career at all. Like
if I didn't start my podcast in twenty nineteen, I
probably won't have this job now.
Speaker 4 (34:53):
It's so much more crowded.
Speaker 5 (34:54):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (34:55):
I think often we feel like we have to have
all the right answers, we have to be super ready,
All the stars have to align before we can start.
You know, if someone comes back to me and they're like,
should I start a podcast? It feels like there's millions
of podcasts, I'm like, yeah, there are, but do it anyway? Yeah,
the best time to start anything is yesterday. Yes, I
think that's good.
Speaker 5 (35:14):
And someone made this comment and podcasting and they're like,
there's a million books. Can you tell people not to
write any more books?
Speaker 4 (35:21):
Obviously I would have a career. Yeah. I mean he
started a magazine in college. Yeah, super impressive. I wish
I would just.
Speaker 3 (35:27):
Start something, you know, and you'll learn the goal is
not to like make it the next billion dollar publicly
traded company, but especially for those who are listening who
are in the earlier stage of their careers, like it's
really just about making a mess of things and moving
on as quickly as possible.
Speaker 5 (35:42):
Yeah. No, I think that's great advice. I love to
hear your takeaways from this conversation.
Speaker 4 (35:47):
With Will Well.
Speaker 3 (35:47):
Honestly, I just liked his vibe. I thought he was
a really calm person. I don't know if that's true
because I haven't actually been in a boardroom with him
or you know.
Speaker 5 (35:55):
I mean, it is very true. I will say as
someone who breaks at iHeart and sees will he's chill.
It's honestly fascinating that he's an exact like he's just
the cool guy that wears like the T shirt.
Speaker 3 (36:04):
And here's why I think that's true, because he's gotten
his reps in early Yes, but I'm sure along the
way there were stresses, and so I appreciate that about him.
I think to our point earlier, just getting into the
habit of starting to do something early on and trusting
yourself and knowing I'm going to fail, I'm going to
make mistakes, but I'm getting a head start goes a
(36:25):
very long way, because now when you are leading a team,
huge team, I think he has a lot of those
experiences to fall back on and knows what's worth fighting
for and what's not, Like what's worth stressing about and
what's not.
Speaker 4 (36:38):
You know, he just has had a long life of
doing this.
Speaker 5 (36:41):
Yeah, and I think we all appreciate someone who's been
in it. So it's not the same as like someone
who's just like jumping from, you know, a CEO position
to another CEO position from like a different industry. It's
like he's worked in this industry, he's done it, he's
made the transition, he's seen the evolution of podcasting.
Speaker 1 (36:58):
He's not the.
Speaker 5 (36:58):
Typical corporate execs and right, we can all really appreciate that.
Speaker 3 (37:02):
And he doesn't pretend to know everything. Yeah, I appreciate
it that he leans on others to guide him. And
that's true leadership. Right when you are in the room
with the right people, you surround yourself with the right people.
You don't assume that you are the smartest person in
the room or should necessarily be the one to have
the last word. I think that's true leadership. And you know,
(37:22):
I might be biased because I'm in the podcast space,
but I think he'd.
Speaker 4 (37:26):
Be a great person to work for. Yeah, no, he is.
That's a testament.
Speaker 3 (37:32):
Thanks so much to Will Pearson for joining us today.
I hope you enjoyed our first episode. We have many
more to come, and in the meantime, if you like
what you're hearing, please follow and subscribe to this podcast
so you don't miss any episodes. And of course we
want to hear your thoughts to make this the best
show possible, so please leave a review. In the meantime,
you can find me at Farnushcharabi on Instagram and the
(37:54):
so Many podcast I'll see you next Time.
Speaker 4 (37:57):
This podcast is.
Speaker 3 (37:58):
A production of iHeartRadio's Ruby Studio. Our executive producer is
Matt Stillo. Our supervising producer is Nikia Swinton. This podcast
was edited by Sierra Spreen
Ruby.
Speaker 2 (00:07):
We know that we have the toolkit to help a
podcast network or an individual podcast succeed through marketing and
the megaphone that we have here at iHeart, But we
also know we want to invest in and believe in
creators to see through their vision. We've tried to do
that with so many others, whether that's with Bloomberg and business,
Will Ferrell and comedy, Shonda Rhimes in the creative space,
(00:28):
the NFL, or NBA, and sports.
Speaker 1 (00:30):
Our job is to help these.
Speaker 2 (00:32):
Great organizations and creators bring these ideas to life. So
it's been fun to be able to organize that way.
We don't always get it right, but in its best execution,
that's the way we try to organize.
Speaker 3 (00:43):
We just heard from Will Pearson, the president of the
iHeart podcast network, where he's responsible for the growth strategy
of Iheart's original podcast content, which can't be an easy job,
especially as we're entering a more crowded marketplace for podcasting.
Well hear how Will and his team managed to make
iHeart stand down to consumers and how the company has
become revolutionary with their podcast advertising strategy and Iheart's commitment
(01:07):
to giving creatives the space and resources they need to
share important stories. This is leading by example, executives making
an impact. I'm furnished to Robbie and I'm excited.
Speaker 4 (01:18):
To take this journey with you as your host.
Speaker 3 (01:20):
I know what you might be thinking, but this is
not just another interview podcast about founders and CEOs. We're
going past the pr and into the personal stuff and
how their lived experiences shape leadership. The workplace, as you know,
is going through a massive transformation. Everything from how we
define work life balance to what we expect from our
leaders and companies is evolving in front of us in
(01:42):
real time. And my goal with this podcast is to
bring you real guidance, actionable insights, and the truth about
the roles we can all play in shaping the future
of work. I tell you this is a front row
seat behind the scenes to innovation and strong leadership across industries,
and that is certainly in the case with our first guest,
Will Pearson. Will's career began in his dorm room at
(02:05):
Duke University, where he co founded the digital media publication
Mental Flaws. It started as a campus magazine and as
journey led him to How Stuff Works, hosting the Part
Time Genius podcast and launching some of today's most innovative
podcast slates. Will Pearson, Welcome to the show.
Speaker 1 (02:22):
Thanks for noush. It's good to be with you.
Speaker 3 (02:24):
I'm looking forward to hearing so much about your career,
come up ins, your influence in the media world. But first,
I just want to know what you were like as
a kid. Were there inklings of the empire you were
going to build as a young one?
Speaker 4 (02:39):
Is there a.
Speaker 3 (02:39):
Story that captures even if it's just like the curiosity
that you had. Because I find you to be a
very curious person, I don't think it's inconsequential who we become.
Speaker 2 (02:50):
So I would say the early part of my career
probably could have been predicted because I was a list
maker an organizer, and I don't know why. I love
learning things and then I loved being able to compile
those in my own organized way. So it was this
combination of I suppose, curiosity and OCD that led me
(03:11):
to create these files.
Speaker 1 (03:12):
And I'm not even kidding when I say this.
Speaker 2 (03:14):
I had files in a desk at my house when
I was like ten years old, where it'd be like
the interesting history facts that I've learned, the interesting science
facts that I've learned whatever it may have been, but
I just loved consuming this knowledge. I didn't exactly know why.
I didn't know what I was going to do with
it. It eventually paid off in some way with the first
business we started out of college. But I guess that
(03:35):
would have been an early hint that this might have
been a path for me.
Speaker 3 (03:38):
You kind of were into executive functioning before it was
age appropriate.
Speaker 1 (03:43):
H Yeah, So fast.
Speaker 4 (03:45):
Forward to Duke.
Speaker 3 (03:46):
Now you're at Duke University and you get an idea
to start I guess a magazine.
Speaker 1 (03:52):
Yeah, that's exactly right.
Speaker 3 (03:54):
Was it always the intention was to start this magazine
that would have a life beyond college?
Speaker 2 (04:00):
It was we didn't necessarily communicate that. So there was
a young man by the name of mungesh A Ticketer.
The two of us were classmates together. We'd known each
other since our first year at Duke, and in the evenings,
groups of friends would sort of crowd into one room
and just kind of hang out and start talking about
things that we may have heard in a class. Again,
maybe one more hint that we were just a little
(04:22):
bit on the nerdy side. But we would get together
in our dorm rooms and just talk about things that
were of venturous to us, and this idea came up
that one person in the room might be an astronomy major,
another person in the room is an econ major, and
another person in the room is a literature major. And
the idea that we could each learn a little bit
from each other is really what inspired the idea for
(04:44):
the magazine Mental Flaws. The whole concept was, how wouldn't
it be great to be able to learn a little
bit from every single one of these departments here on campus.
You're at a liberal arts institution celebrating general knowledge. Let's
come up with a way that people can learn a
little bit of everything, but also blend it with entertainment
and trivia, so that every time you experience an issue
(05:07):
of the magazine, you'd walk away feeling a little bit smarter,
but with a smile on your face. And so we
started it there and distributed a couple of issues on
campus at Duke, and then decided to take it outside
of Duke as well. Of course, we had no idea,
We had no background in the publishing industry in any
sort of meaningful way, and I honestly think that's part
(05:27):
of why it worked.
Speaker 1 (05:28):
You know, we were too naive and too.
Speaker 2 (05:30):
Young to know the rules of the publishing industry and
how hard it was to start a magazine's supposed to
think about it. We launched in two thousand and one,
not exactly the best time to be launching any business,
much less a magazine, but it was something we felt
very strongly about.
Speaker 4 (05:46):
So pretty quickly.
Speaker 3 (05:47):
It sounds that when you started Mental Floss at Duke
it got a great reception. It seemed like there's a
business here. At what point did you realize I want
to do this professionally beyond college? Were there are other
pathways you considered, other career routes you considered?
Speaker 2 (06:04):
There were none that were super clear. I didn't know
exactly what I wanted to do. I was a history major,
so I think my only options were to go into
academia or start my own thing. Right but now, and
I don't really feel that way. I'm a big proponent
of a liberal arts education. But I guess it was
in my third year, my junior year at Duke, when
(06:25):
we started this and really knew the path was, let's
try to take this beyond the campus and make this
our full time gigs. Of course, what it meant at
that point was just getting this off the ground, working
part time jobs while still in college and just doing
whatever we could to make some extra money to get
things started.
Speaker 3 (06:42):
What did those early days teach you about leadership?
Speaker 4 (06:45):
Did you consider yourself.
Speaker 3 (06:47):
A CEO or a leader at that point or you
just kind of like a builder and an engineer and
wearing all the.
Speaker 2 (06:54):
Hats a little bit more of the ladder. I was
running the team, but at the same time was a
very small team at that point. But I think that
was such a critical moment for learning at that stage.
You know, it's funny to think back about the designing
and the creation of some of those first issues, because
(07:14):
fast forwarding to this point, anybody that wants to create
a magazine or design something has all the tools on
their computer. At that point, though there were no joke
like five computers on campus that had the right tools
to design a magazine. There are plenty of computers, but
the ones that had the actual programs to be able
to design a magazine. And so there were other campus
(07:34):
publications and you'd have to sign up for time slots,
and so we would sign up for these time slots
in the student center that might be like eleven pm
to three am, because that's when we could all get together.
And even though I wasn't the designer of the magazine,
I think one of the early lessons was learning the
importance of being present and being present during difficult times
(07:57):
and being present when the hard work is being done.
And so we would of course have all of these
articles that were submitted in all the content that was
coming together, and then it was time to be able
to sit down together and decide what was going on
what page and how the design was looking. And I
felt that it was important for both of us from
Ungesh and for myself to be there during that time,
(08:19):
even if we weren't guiding where every article was going.
There was something about that, and I think it was
an early lesson learned and I saw it in other mentors,
and so I've tried to carry that forward to be
present when our teams are dealing with difficult challenges, even
if I'm not always the one that's making the ultimate
decision on those things.
Speaker 3 (08:36):
Yeah, there's a sense of accountability and I think that
is really appreciated from everybody else on the team because
we tend to work in silos and well, it wasn't
my job, and that wasn't my job, right, That's right.
Speaker 4 (08:48):
You also hit the jackpot in mangesh.
Speaker 1 (08:50):
Yes.
Speaker 3 (08:51):
You know, it's one thing to have a good roommate
that's hard enough in college, or a friend, but that
he ended up also being a really great business partner
and a co pilot. Looking back, maybe only in hindsight, now,
you know what made that relationship really click.
Speaker 1 (09:04):
Well, first of all, it was a friendship.
Speaker 2 (09:06):
We had a couple of mutual friends early in college
and that really brought us more closely together. But then
I think it was the recognition of complimentary skill sets.
You know, he's one of the most creative people I've
ever been around, and you really want to find in
a business partner somebody that compliments your strengths and helps
make up for your weaknesses, and I think we did
(09:27):
that for each other. You know, he brought the incredible
creativity and then just the ability to have.
Speaker 1 (09:33):
A vision for what we were trying to create.
Speaker 2 (09:36):
And I was more on the strategy side and more
on the pow are we actually going to get out
on the world and build this? And how are we
going to communicate about this? One of the best ways
to illustrate. This was even the name itself when we
were trying to think of the name of this magazine,
and I bet it came up with more than one
hundred terrible names until he just said, why don't we
call it Mental Flaws. And on the one hand, you
(09:58):
just want to celebrate that, because that was exactly what
what it needed to be called, because it sounded smart,
It sounded like something that celebrated knowledge, but also communicated
that it didn't take itself too seriously, that it was playful,
and so there was something about that that was both
exciting and also just really frustrating to know that on
one of his first tries he was like, you know what,
this is what we should call it, stroke of genius,
(10:19):
and that's just what he does time and again. So yeah,
we worked together at Mental Floss all the way through
selling the magazine I guess that was in twenty eleven
to Dennis Publishing out of the UK, and stayed on
to continue working there for a few more years.
Speaker 3 (10:36):
You left Mental Floss to pursue podcasting in twenty seventeen,
still very early days of this medium. What was it
about podcasting that excited you, that made you think there
is something here, and I think there's even some staying
power because a little fun fact and you know this,
but maybe our audience doesn't. But podcasting in twenty seventeen
was sort of podcasting two point zero. There was an
(10:58):
initial era of podcasting before or the iPhone came to
the scene, and it was sort of native to the iPod,
but it was so converse and we had to download
it before you left work to listen to it.
Speaker 4 (11:08):
On the subway.
Speaker 3 (11:09):
It didn't take right, but it wasn't until like streaming
and Wi Fi became more ubiquitous that podcasting two point
zero kind of took off. And that's when you arrived
on the scene and now you thought, this is the moment.
Speaker 2 (11:21):
Yeah, but it was still in that early stage, and
that's what was most appealing to us. You know, when
we were at Mental Floss and when we sold it
in twenty eleven, we had said to ourselves, you know, look,
we want to stay here as long as it feels
like a startup, as long as it feels like we
are building a thing that is in.
Speaker 1 (11:39):
The entrepreneurship phase.
Speaker 2 (11:41):
Once that stops and once a business is in sort
of maintenance or slow growth mode, we'd probably be ready
to move on to the next thing, and that moment
started to come in about twenty fifteen or so, and
then we started having conversations with how Stuff Works or
Stuff Media about the possibility of leaving to come on
(12:01):
board and start a podcast, but really with the bigger
goal of helping them spin off from their parent company
and see what we could do with it as a
podcast company. Here's a super interesting company and how Stuff Works,
which by coincidence, most of their subject matter was very
complimentary and in alignment with what we were doing at
Mental Floss with shows like stuff you should know, Stuff
(12:24):
you missed in history class, tech stuff, and we thought,
you know, we can combine two things here, one the
background that we have in these creation of general knowledge products,
but to this idea of being able to jump in
into a very young space and see what can happen.
And I guess it was about a year and a
half later with the team there, we were able to
(12:45):
sell How Stuff Works to iHeart.
Speaker 3 (12:48):
And now a really big playing field at iHeart you
have launched many amazing programming there and I'm just curious,
you said, you like sort of like the startup, You're
like a startup leader. You like that playing field, and
now you're at a bigger company like iHeart. What's your
approach to leadership and innovation? Is it any different?
Speaker 1 (13:09):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (13:10):
I actually think my background and also the background of
our CEO of the digital half of iHeart, Connell Burn,
he also came from Stuff Media. Both of us had
been and lived in the startup space, and I actually
think it's really given us a lot of guidance as
we think about leading larger companies because the way that
(13:30):
we actually try to organize iHeart Podcasts, you could step
back from that and say, Okay, we've got nine hundred
podcasts and really think about it as this one cumulative entity.
And of course we do that in the marketplace to
some extent, but that's not really the way I look at.
Speaker 1 (13:48):
It and our best execution.
Speaker 2 (13:50):
What we are as a division that has maybe twenty
or twenty five different teams or slates or networks and
themselves that get to operate somewhat independently, get to create
their own ideas, get to create many of their own
marketing plans, but then have the ability to tap into
the resources of a much larger organization. So what we're
(14:12):
in effect trying to do is to fund and support
startups within a larger organization so that when Charlemagne, the
god legendary host of the Breakfast Club or co host
of the Breakfast Club comes along and says, I think
it's time to start a network dedicated to black voices
because of the incredible underrepresentation in the podcast space. When
he came to us in twenty twenty and express that,
(14:34):
we so, well, now is the time to do this.
Let's give it a shot, and to give him the resources,
but in some ways to also step out of the
way and to not get in the way of a
creator or a visionary trying to create their thing. We
know that we have the toolkit to help a podcast
network or an individual podcast succeed through marketing and the
megaphone that we have here at iHeart, but we also
(14:55):
know we want to invest in and believe in creators
to see through their vision. We've tried to do that
with so many others, whether that's with Bloomberg and business,
Will Ferrell and comedy Shonda Rhimes, in the creative space,
the NFL, or NBA and sports. Our job is to
help these great organizations and creators bring these ideas to life.
So it's been fun to be able to organize that way.
(15:16):
We don't always get it right, but in its best execution,
that's the way we try to organize.
Speaker 3 (15:21):
Yeah, sometimes it's just let them tell you what's needed.
I think sometimes leaders put the pressure on themselves to
sort of figure it out.
Speaker 1 (15:30):
That's right, and it.
Speaker 3 (15:31):
Doesn't always work, but when it does, you look back
and go that was kind of easy.
Speaker 1 (15:35):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (15:36):
Actually, how do you stay on top of the trends
and ensure iHeartMedia remains ahead of its competitors. It sounds
like one approach is to lean into your experts and
your podcast's hosts who are in it every day and
hearing from their audience.
Speaker 1 (15:53):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (15:53):
I would actually say that is the biggest way is
to be listening to our leadership. So the one part
that I sort of left out there, suppose in organizing
that way is that it is critical that every one
of those teams has an excellent leader that is, in
many respects, the general manager or the president of their
own small podcast company. I would say that almost more
(16:15):
than anything. But the other thing is just listening within
the industry, seeing what shows are launching, seeing what trends
are out there. Seeing what's not out there is part
of it, and that can be a challenge. It's really
easy to follow, Oh, here's a new thing that's happening.
Here's a new thing that's happening. One of the harder
things I think is identifying where the gaps are. So
I guess the only other thing I'd add is we
(16:37):
do try to look at the data as well. I
have a great data and analytics team here at iHeart
that helps us see where those gaps are, and we
look at the trends of listenership, and part of it
is having to identify. Okay, I see that they are
under indexing for listening within podcasts, and we have the
benefit of being part of a network that can actually
address that can actually move the needle because of the
(16:59):
scale coming up.
Speaker 3 (17:01):
After the break, Will and I talk about adapting to
the pandemic, the evolution of podcast advertising, and his advice
to aspiring media professionals.
Speaker 2 (17:10):
The world changed in twenty twenty, and in some respects,
we can't pretend that it's back to being exactly the
same world today that it was before the pandemic. I
think we have to acknowledge that life changed, and we
need to be able to change with the world around us.
Speaker 4 (17:27):
We'll be right back.
Speaker 3 (17:37):
I have a question now, just about your approach to
relating to your teams and your leaders within iHeart given
that the last couple of years, few years have been
very volatile, very challenging from whatever direction you're looking at,
global pandemic, inflation, election cycle, and so the line between
sort of home and work is blurred, and people are
(17:58):
coming to work with a lot of heavy thoughts.
Speaker 4 (18:01):
And I'm sure a lot.
Speaker 3 (18:03):
Of CEOs and leaders in C suite are grappling with
this as well. Just how to foster innovation when everything
feels like it's on fire. How do you foster inspiration too,
because it can be hard going into work with so
many constraints at home.
Speaker 2 (18:20):
Yeah, it's definitely not easy, and I think the first
step is actually just simply acknowledging that in your talent
base or in your employee base, just not pretending that
these things aren't issues and aren't still issues. Right, the
world changed in twenty twenty, and in some respects we
can't pretend that it's back to being exactly the same
(18:42):
world today that it was before the pandemic I think
we have to acknowledge that life changed and we need
to be able to change with the world around us.
But I think it's looking for those opportunities of ways
to innovate even with those situations. And so in some
respects we learned the advantages of being able to create
and operate from home. We had a lot of talent
(19:04):
that weren't working with us before the pandemic, and then
we really learned how to very quickly. When you think
about the hundreds of podcasts that we produce, and then
suddenly we had to be able to produce all of
them remotely and to see a team rally around this,
And actually I shouldn't necessarily call it a distraction, but
in some ways it was during a really difficult time
(19:24):
during the pandemic, to have a team saying, Okay, this
is a new challenge, a new focus. We're going to
figure out how to very rapidly move hundreds and hundreds
of podcasts to remote production. What it opened up for
us was that many talent could only produce remotely. Many
talent only wanted to be remote and recording their podcast
and now that's no longer an issue for us. So
(19:47):
I think part of it is that part of it
is just trying to be in very regular communication with
the team. This actually still goes back to the way
we organize is really leaning into that leadership to say,
you may have a team of ten as opposed to
our team of a couple hundred, I really need for
you to stay in communication with your team and make
(20:09):
sure that if there is any challenge that that's flagged
for us. We tried to get creative in terms of
finding small group communication. Something that I try to do
pretty regularly is have these you know, not a creative name,
but just these coffee talks where we'll take three or
four people from different parts of our podcast team all
get on Zoom together with no agenda other than getting
(20:30):
to know each other for half an hour. We're not
talking about work, we're not talking about our mission at iHeart,
We're just getting to know each other. What are people reading,
what are people watching, what's on their minds with their families?
And I think those moments help bring us together as
people as well. And it's not easy to try to
always find the time to do that for anyone, but
(20:50):
I think it pays off to really build those connections.
Speaker 4 (20:54):
I love that. Well, let's talk about advertising a little bit.
Speaker 3 (20:57):
How has that evolved since when you say started in
twenty seventeen. I know, iHeart just announced its adoption of
unified ID two point zero. Can you talk a little
bit about that and how it's revolutionizing the business.
Speaker 2 (21:10):
Actually, the evolution of advertising in podcasting I find to
be super interesting because when you go back and you
think about some of those early podcasts or even podcasts,
you don't have to go that far back, you go
back six seven years ago, and the podcast advertisers you
were hearing at that point were all what we call
direct response advertisers, right your stamps dot Com, your meal kits,
(21:33):
your mattress companies, your whatever it may have been, that
were all using those discount codes. So the benefit of
those being the primary advertisers that were really building the
industry is you had to prove that they would perform.
You don't continue hearing these advertisers if they're not working.
And so that really built the podcast industry, and there
(21:54):
was a moment where brands started waking up to this
and started realizing, oh wait, if I'm here these same
advertisers over and over and over again. It's because people
are paying attention, and there was something about the intimacy
of that connection between the podcast host and the podcast
listener that was just so incredibly effective. And so brand
(22:16):
started coming on board and saying, we've got to be
a part of this as well. And it was really
exciting for us to be I think at the forefront
of that, especially as we started launching some of these
bigger slates, you know, the Black Effect or Michael Tura
or Big Money Players or even partnering with Malcolm Gladwell's
Pushkin for several years now that we approached it a
(22:37):
bit differently. We said, you know what, for this slate
of shows, we're actually only bringing in five advertisers, five
category exclusive advertisers that will own the entire slate for
their category and be able to be part of what
we're trying to build. Here was a really exciting evolution
for all of this, and the next phase in that
has actually been the ability to reach very specific audiences.
(23:02):
So brands started coming on board, but then certain brands
were saying, you know, this is all great, but actually,
if I'm going to be investing in podcasting, I need
to know that I can reach a critical scale in
doing this, and so that gets to your sort of
the second piece of this, which is the ability to
audience target. If you can target anywhere in digital media,
(23:24):
you can do the same thing in podcasting. And so
part of what we've tried to do is say, Okay,
you're trying to reach you know, women twenty five to
thirty nine, who are moms, who are the have the
following qualifiers. Yes, we can definitely help you do that
through this you know celebrity slate of podcast that we
have right here. However, we can help you do this
(23:46):
at even greater scale across our network of eight hundred
shows by really focusing on the shows and the listeners
that are reaching that audience. And then the next piece
of that has been building more three p sixty ad
per programs to say, okay, be part of the podcast,
be part of the slate. Let's also extend that into
social media. Let's also extend that into video where possible,
(24:09):
or into live events, just to continue building this connection.
There are actually some really interesting statistics around the improved
performance of social media advertising when it follows audio advertising.
So as a compliment to that, so it's been something
just in educating advertisers to help them understand that as
(24:29):
part of a full media program, as part of a
full marketing program, podcasting can be just an incredible complement
to that.
Speaker 3 (24:37):
I think the limitation of the brands in exclusive category
is smart. And also as a podcaster, I really appreciate
when it's just sort of a tight group of brands
that are involved in the show and then you're not
reading mattress ad after a mattress AD. Nothing against the
mattress Ad people, but it just creates a more quality
experience I think for everybody, listeners, producers, everybody, and of
(24:58):
course the sponsor.
Speaker 1 (24:59):
Yeah, that's right. We want to have a balance to that.
Speaker 2 (25:02):
I guess the only other thing I'll add with that
the type of advertising when we mentioned the ability to
reach audiences is it also allowed us to help small
the mid size shows grow because previously a big brand
might come along and say, Okay, those shows are cute,
but like I need scale so to be able to say, okay,
well you're coming into these two or three really big shows,
(25:22):
but then we're going to help give you the backing
of the audience across several others and do have some
of these small the mid size shows. Now having fortune
five hundred companies, you know, running in their shows has
been really exciting for those creators as well.
Speaker 3 (25:36):
Sounds like a lot of work, but also sounds like fun.
How do you maintain a work life balance for yourself?
Speaker 1 (25:41):
Will I'll be completely honest.
Speaker 2 (25:44):
I mean it is one of those things that I
sort of force myself, not even just annually, but probably
every six months to do a little bit of a
reset and say, what is it that I'm going to
do outside of work, whether it's with family, whether it's
with personal interest, to make sure that you're just working
every hour of every day. When you love what you do,
when you love the company that you're working with, it's
(26:05):
really easy to get pulled in that direction. You could
work all the time. It's not good for you. I
don't think it's good ultimately for the company. And so
what I've tried to do is find certain passions that
you can follow. For me, it's been running over the
past several years to use that as not only something
to foster physical health, but really for my own mental health.
To be able to just step away from it all,
(26:26):
put the phone down, start running. Sounds very far as
gumpy of me, and I'm from Alabama, so I'm just
going to say yeah too strongly. But it's been a
big part of my life. This past year, I ran
the New York Marathon for the first time, and I
have just been trying to get out and run as
much as I can, but finding things like that that
can provide a balance to what you're doing day to day.
Speaker 4 (26:46):
Living in Birmingham. How has that worked just logistically with
iHeart based in New York and a lot of the
media world in New York.
Speaker 2 (26:54):
Yeah, you know, iHeart is a super interesting company on
this front. When you think about the fact that we're
really built around one hundred and fifty different markets around
the country. These are radio stations in every single major market,
mid size market, some small markets around the country, and
so we have executive team members who are really all
(27:14):
over the place. It does mean that I'm traveling a
good bit. It means that I'm in New York a
couple times a month, I'm probably in la once a
month or so, and then in other locations as events
or needs come up. But I don't think it's been
a real limiting factor. And I think back to the
sort of work life balance piece of it, and also
just kind of stepping away from the chaos of cities
(27:36):
that I love, but the chaos that can come along
with those cities. I also think too, it's good for
our executive team to be spread a bit because we've
done a lot of studies on this and looked at
what we call sometimes the ignored consumer or the new
American consumer, where you're recognizing that not every consumer, not
every listener that we're trying to reach, is based in
(27:58):
New York and LA and it's easy to sort of
fall into that trap of creating all of your content
specifically for those audiences, while of course there should be
content created for them, we really want to be able
to think about everybody. The fact that iheartreaches ninety ninety
one percent of Americans on a monthly basis, we've got
to be making content for everybody.
Speaker 4 (28:19):
So as we.
Speaker 3 (28:20):
Approach our last few minutes here will I kind of
want to get your wisdom for those in the audience
who are listening and thinking, you know, I want to
pursue a path in media or any industry really, and
I have a lot of ambition. I feel like almost
are running up against a timeline, you know, in the
sense that by the time I'm this age or that age,
I want to have accomplished so much. So much of
(28:41):
what success is is defined by when you achieve that success, right, right,
And I'm just curious, what would you say to that
person who's feeling that strain.
Speaker 4 (28:51):
Did you ever feel this way? Do you have a.
Speaker 3 (28:53):
Timeline in your own head about when you'd like to
achieve certain milestones?
Speaker 2 (28:58):
You know, I think anybody who claims they have no
timeline in their head is probably not telling the truth.
Whether it's a healthy thing for us to do or not.
It's funny that you mentioned this though, because actually just
before this, we were planning out some of what we'll
be doing together with Martha Stewart, who's a great partner
of ours, has a podcast with us. You know, she's,
of course in her early eighties. Everybody's talking about the
(29:20):
new documentary about her, and she's never had a hotter
business moment than right now. Like, it is really exciting
to watch everything that she's accomplishing, and so much of
her success has come from her forties and fifties on
and it's actually been really fun to see that. So
that is true, But at the same time. In terms
of those that are earlier in their career, maybe in
(29:43):
their twenties and thirties, and trying to think about what
they want to do next, they're interested in moving into
the media space. I think there's a couple of things.
I think one is to be consumers of that media.
And I was talking to somebody earlier today who is
passionate about one category in podcasting and is looking into
breaking into podcasting. My recommendation was to also start consuming
(30:04):
content and other categories, to listen to categories that you've
never really thought about before, because it sort of challenges
your idea of what it is to produce a podcast,
to create something new, and so I think it is
very important to try to consume as much as you
possibly can of a variety of things, and then to
also just put yourself in that space. For some people,
(30:25):
I will use podcasting as an example to just launch
your own podcasts. You know, I talk to a lot
of students and a lot of young professionals. There's such
a low barrier to entry, and the only goal shouldn't
be I need thousands or tens of thousands or millions
of listeners. It should be actually be to fine tune
your creative skills and your production skills, and just being
(30:45):
out in the world. The number of people that have
landed jobs or landed podcast gigs because they just started
a thing and they just got it out in the world.
I think it is really important to just try to
do that. And even if it's an entry level job
at a company that you're in interested in. We've seen
that firsthand with people coming into a place like iHeart,
(31:05):
showing how good they are at the job, showing how
passionate they are, and being able to sort of advance
from there. So there's no easy paths to do it,
but I think part of it is just taking that
leap and putting yourself out there to try to get
into the.
Speaker 3 (31:18):
Space, sort of like Will in college is started the
magazine that's right now.
Speaker 1 (31:22):
No idea what you're doing, but you just do it,
just get in the deep end.
Speaker 4 (31:26):
I'm an author.
Speaker 3 (31:26):
I like to ask Guess a lot this kind of question,
and you're an author too, So here here we go,
and we're in the same boat.
Speaker 4 (31:32):
Here.
Speaker 3 (31:32):
If you had to write a memoir or someone was
going to write a biography about Will Pearson, what should
the title be? And maybe we should ask your friend, yes,
your co founder.
Speaker 2 (31:42):
The title whiz, that's probably what the title should be.
Is what should Mangesh call this book? I think it's
going to be it.
Speaker 4 (31:48):
Yeah, what would Mangesh do?
Speaker 2 (31:51):
That's yes, Yes, I've got a bracelet that says it
the whole thing.
Speaker 3 (31:55):
Yeah, that's awesome. And finally, will we're going to ask
all of our guests this. You are no, you're guess,
so you get the first stab at it. But what
does leading by example mean to you?
Speaker 4 (32:06):
Question Mark?
Speaker 2 (32:07):
Yeah, I mean, actually, I think it's nice that we
were able to talk about this a little bit early
in the episode. When leading by example is being there
with the team when they're doing the hard thing and
being a part of that in any way possible, and
not simply being a leader that's sort of passing down
a directive and saying, go do this. It's when you've
(32:27):
got a hard decision or a challenging thing, or a
difficult partner or an advertiser that's frustrated or whatever it
may be. Don't always leave your team to do the work.
Actually get your hands dirty with them and get in
the middle of it. And then they see that and
you and understand that there's really not a task that's
below any one of us, that we're all part of
(32:48):
a team here. To me, that's been the most important
part of how to lead by example in my opinion.
Speaker 3 (32:55):
Will Pearson, thank you so much. You are a great
guest to start with, and we'll be listening.
Speaker 1 (33:02):
Thanks so much for newsh It was great to be
with you.
Speaker 5 (33:06):
Well.
Speaker 4 (33:06):
I liked that. That was a really interesting conversation with Will.
Speaker 3 (33:10):
And I know I'm not the only one who took
away some great points because I have Kia here with
me who's been stinking in on this conversation. She's our
supervising producer on this show. Hi Kia, Hi, So you
have worked under Will and you've attended some of his
coffee talks. Are they as cheesy as he says they sound?
Speaker 4 (33:27):
They're great?
Speaker 5 (33:28):
Let me talk about reality TV when I'm watching.
Speaker 1 (33:30):
It was good.
Speaker 4 (33:31):
It was good to connect.
Speaker 5 (33:32):
You know, Will is in Birmingham, as you discussed, so
we don't always see him face to face in the
New York office, but it was nice to connect with
him and other producers on the team.
Speaker 4 (33:41):
And how long you've been working in podcasting, Kia.
Speaker 5 (33:44):
I've been working in podcasting. I guess technically since like
twenty seventeen.
Speaker 3 (33:50):
So you've been in the mix for a while. You've
been watching the evolution both as like someone who works
in the space but also who's a consumer. Is there
something you really appreciated Will's leadership approach or anything he said?
Speaker 5 (34:02):
Yeah, I think something he touched on. Like we said,
timing is super important. You feel like you're hustling. I mean, yeah,
I came from like a radio kind of podcasting background,
and then I started my independent podcast and then iHeart
actually found me and that's how I got into podcasting
full time. So it's been amazing to see like what
(34:22):
iHeart can do and also how you can create podcasts
as an independent creator, and how I Heart really has
the tools to shape the podcasting slates. So when Will
talked about timing, you know, with how stuff works and
how I Heart really I think is beneficial to the
podcasting world because they got in at the right time.
(34:43):
And I think timing and luck is so important, not
just in podcasting, but like your career at all. Like
if I didn't start my podcast in twenty nineteen, I
probably won't have this job now.
Speaker 4 (34:53):
It's so much more crowded.
Speaker 5 (34:54):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (34:55):
I think often we feel like we have to have
all the right answers, we have to be super ready,
All the stars have to align before we can start.
You know, if someone comes back to me and they're like,
should I start a podcast? It feels like there's millions
of podcasts, I'm like, yeah, there are, but do it anyway? Yeah,
the best time to start anything is yesterday. Yes, I
think that's good.
Speaker 5 (35:14):
And someone made this comment and podcasting and they're like,
there's a million books. Can you tell people not to
write any more books?
Speaker 4 (35:21):
Obviously I would have a career. Yeah. I mean he
started a magazine in college. Yeah, super impressive. I wish
I would just.
Speaker 3 (35:27):
Start something, you know, and you'll learn the goal is
not to like make it the next billion dollar publicly
traded company, but especially for those who are listening who
are in the earlier stage of their careers, like it's
really just about making a mess of things and moving
on as quickly as possible.
Speaker 5 (35:42):
Yeah. No, I think that's great advice. I love to
hear your takeaways from this conversation.
Speaker 4 (35:47):
With Will Well.
Speaker 3 (35:47):
Honestly, I just liked his vibe. I thought he was
a really calm person. I don't know if that's true
because I haven't actually been in a boardroom with him
or you know.
Speaker 5 (35:55):
I mean, it is very true. I will say as
someone who breaks at iHeart and sees will he's chill.
It's honestly fascinating that he's an exact like he's just
the cool guy that wears like the T shirt.
Speaker 3 (36:04):
And here's why I think that's true, because he's gotten
his reps in early Yes, but I'm sure along the
way there were stresses, and so I appreciate that about him.
I think to our point earlier, just getting into the
habit of starting to do something early on and trusting
yourself and knowing I'm going to fail, I'm going to
make mistakes, but I'm getting a head start goes a
(36:25):
very long way, because now when you are leading a team,
huge team, I think he has a lot of those
experiences to fall back on and knows what's worth fighting
for and what's not, Like what's worth stressing about and
what's not.
Speaker 4 (36:38):
You know, he just has had a long life of
doing this.
Speaker 5 (36:41):
Yeah, and I think we all appreciate someone who's been
in it. So it's not the same as like someone
who's just like jumping from, you know, a CEO position
to another CEO position from like a different industry. It's
like he's worked in this industry, he's done it, he's
made the transition, he's seen the evolution of podcasting.
Speaker 1 (36:58):
He's not the.
Speaker 5 (36:58):
Typical corporate execs and right, we can all really appreciate that.
Speaker 3 (37:02):
And he doesn't pretend to know everything. Yeah, I appreciate
it that he leans on others to guide him. And
that's true leadership. Right when you are in the room
with the right people, you surround yourself with the right people.
You don't assume that you are the smartest person in
the room or should necessarily be the one to have
the last word. I think that's true leadership. And you know,
(37:22):
I might be biased because I'm in the podcast space,
but I think he'd.
Speaker 4 (37:26):
Be a great person to work for. Yeah, no, he is.
That's a testament.
Speaker 3 (37:32):
Thanks so much to Will Pearson for joining us today.
I hope you enjoyed our first episode. We have many
more to come, and in the meantime, if you like
what you're hearing, please follow and subscribe to this podcast
so you don't miss any episodes. And of course we
want to hear your thoughts to make this the best
show possible, so please leave a review. In the meantime,
you can find me at Farnushcharabi on Instagram and the
(37:54):
so Many podcast I'll see you next Time.
Speaker 4 (37:57):
This podcast is.
Speaker 3 (37:58):
A production of iHeartRadio's Ruby Studio. Our executive producer is
Matt Stillo. Our supervising producer is Nikia Swinton. This podcast
was edited by Sierra Spreen
Host
Farnoosh Torabi
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