March 5, 2025 • 39 mins
By the spring of 1969, The Godfather had turned its author, Mario Puzo, into an overnight celebrity. Tasked with adapting his best-selling book for the screen, Puzo’s life soon became that of a Hollywood big-shot. He took up residence at the Beverly Hills Hotel, had an office on the Paramount lot, and even hired a personal assistant, Janet Snow, who spent as much time playing tennis with the overweight writer as she did driving him to-and-from dinners with Puzo's newfound friends and admirers such as Orson Welles. All the while, Paramount still had a movie to make. The studio turned to Al Ruddy, a no-nonsense, pennywise producer and former shoe salesman who—like Robert Evans and Puzo—found success by good luck as much as by tenacity. In Episode Three, Mark and Nathan trace Ruddy’s unorthodox path to the top of the film industry, and explore the circumstances of Puzo’s new life in the spotlight—which included an unfortunate dust-up at Chasen's with the real-life inspiration for The Godfather's Johnny Fontaine, Frank Sinatra.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
It's spring of nineteen sixty four. Mario Puzo walks into
the Plaza Hotel, sweating in an overcoat, with slick black
hair and a copy of his best selling novel tucked
under his arm. He's feeling skeptical. A producer from Paramount
wants to turn his four hundred and forty eight page
novel into a movie, and they want him, a novelist
(00:24):
who's never written a screenplay, to write the script. It's
been a year since The Godfather came out. Mario assumed
Paramount wasn't interested in the option anymore. He wasn't so
old either. For the first time in his life, Mario
Puzo is not broke. Adapting his novel into a screenplay
sounds like work. He sits down with a thin man
(00:47):
named Al Ruddy and Ruddy's wife, Francoise. Ruddy cuts to
the chase and tells him he's out on a limb
for Mario. No one in Hollywood trusts authors to adapt
their own books. Worried Mario will be too precious with
the novel, Mario is ready to walk away. It's just
not worth it. Just then, Francoise opens her purse and
(01:10):
pulls out a miniature poodle who lets out a little yip.
Mario is enchanted. Suddenly he wants the job. He throws
his copy of The Godfather onto the carpeted floor and
says to Ruddy, you have my word of honor. I'll
never look at that book again. Ruddy extends his hand
(01:31):
and says, Mario, you just got the job. I'm Mark
Seal and I'm Nathan King. This is leave the gun,
take the canoli.
Speaker 2 (01:49):
In this episode will chronicle the rise of The Godfather
stalwart producer Al Ruddy.
Speaker 1 (01:55):
And check in on our lovable author Mario Puzzo and
see how he's adjusting to his new life in Hollywood.
Speaker 2 (02:08):
So, Mark, if Mario Puzzo was an unlikely screenwriter and
Al Ruddy was an even more unlikely producer.
Speaker 1 (02:16):
Yeah, very much so. When Al Ruddy got the job
to produce The Godfather, he was known as the guy
to get things done, but his path the Hollywood was
extremely round about.
Speaker 2 (02:27):
Yeah. Like so many other characters in this story, Al
Ruddy was an immigrant as well.
Speaker 1 (02:32):
Yes, he was from Canada, and he immigrated with his
mom and two siblings when he was seven. And I
was lucky enough to speak with him on the phone
and in person a few times over the course of
my reporting, and he told me many stories, including their
immigration story.
Speaker 3 (02:49):
She came to the United States. My mother took three kids.
She stuck over the border. She had it with my father,
who was an alcoholic and abused you because he threw us.
We drove over the border one night, ed up in
New York and that's where we sat. Oh, my mother
told us, remember, he's a way to being deported. They
asked you what you were boring? Say, you don't know.
Speaker 2 (03:12):
So what was Ruddy's upbringing like in New York?
Speaker 1 (03:14):
Well, he went to Brooklyn Technical High School and then
worked his way through school at USC as an architecture
major of all things.
Speaker 2 (03:23):
So very applicable to the movie business.
Speaker 1 (03:25):
Yeah, I don't think show business was even on his
radar yet. But after college he ended up in a
job that would be surprisingly relevant to his later career.
He moves back east and gets a job supervising construction
crews on a housing development in New Jersey.
Speaker 2 (03:43):
That's a great connection. He's orchestrating all these huge groups
of people and dealing with unions, trying to stay on
a budget. The housing development is pretty much like a movie.
Speaker 1 (03:53):
Yeah, but not nearly as glamorous.
Speaker 2 (03:55):
Right did he know at this point he wanted to
be a producer.
Speaker 1 (03:58):
I don't think so at this point, but he didn't
know what he wanted. But he didn't know what he
didn't want. He told me that when he went to quit,
his boss tried to offer him more money, but he
just wasn't having it.
Speaker 3 (04:09):
Let's just see if you get it. I'm not leaving
because of the money. I just didn't want to grow.
Speaker 4 (04:13):
Up to be here.
Speaker 3 (04:13):
One day and Budd boots twenty years from him, looking
at another suite, New Jersey.
Speaker 2 (04:19):
So he moves back to California, and this is when
he starts working at the Ranch Corporation. It was a
military think tank, which seems a little bit strange to me.
Speaker 1 (04:28):
Yeah, it is a bit strange, but being already he
promptly rose through the ranks, just as he did wherever
you went. He got an assistant and started bailing on
work so he could, as he put it, have his
adventures in Hollywood as a jack.
Speaker 3 (04:43):
I may not be in this office all the time,
twenty four hours a day, but what something urgent comes
through for me and cover for me, it's right, absolutely,
don't worry about Well, once Jack Kack just started, I
had time to roam around Hollywood.
Speaker 2 (04:56):
What kind of adventures are we talking?
Speaker 1 (04:58):
So at this point he knew he wanted to work
and show business, but he had no idea about how
to break in. Naturally, he buys a Jaguar x K
one twenty and starts roaming around town.
Speaker 2 (05:11):
Now he's sounding like a movie producer. But what did
he expect just to drive a fancy car around town
and someone would point him out and invite him to
come work in the movies.
Speaker 1 (05:20):
Well that's what almost happened being Al Ruddy. One day
on his way to work in his new Jaguar, something
amazing happens.
Speaker 3 (05:29):
I was driving to work one day and there was
a big juice. So I shout at the lifeless asier
the window and said, keV watah, maybe we get a
part time job there? Pay by Carl offense going there,
and the guy sees me, I said, hey, I sell
you a sign on the window. I'd love to hear
a jobbing a part time I don't want to part
time guys, now I needed both times, I said, listen,
(05:51):
I could sell more fucking shoes part time than any
guy you got selling shoes both times? Oh really?
Speaker 1 (05:58):
And according to Ruddy, a woman walks in who needs
some shoes, and he sells their fourteen pairs of shoes immediately,
And of course the owner of the shop says, you
got the job part time.
Speaker 2 (06:11):
How's working in a shoe store going to get him
a Hollywood producer job. That seems like a pretty big leap.
Speaker 1 (06:16):
Well, it's all about who you know, Nathan, and that
store would prove to be the perfect place to meet people.
One day, a friend of Alice, an agent named Elliott Cassner,
comes into the store with his buddy Brian Hutting.
Speaker 3 (06:29):
Elli and Kanson brings Brian Hutting around to my shoe
store on Saturday to meet me, and he thinks I'd
be a great for He goes there, and.
Speaker 1 (06:37):
Brian'll be a great direct Brian was an actor who
had secured the rights to a hit Broadway play called
The Connection, and he wanted to stage it in California.
So Brian and Elliott convince Al that he should produce
the play, and of course they needed help with financing,
so al says, there's only one person he can think of,
(06:58):
who has any money. A young woman he went to
school with, who has output it had always had the
hots for him. He convinced her to invest fifteen grand
in the production, and just like that, Al Ruddy is
a producer.
Speaker 2 (07:15):
God, this guy can talk his way into anything.
Speaker 1 (07:17):
Nathan, you have no idea. So after that play, Alan
Bryan Hunting go on to produce a script for Marlon
Brando's studio and Universal puts it out. And then Al
Ruddy meets an actor named Bernie Fine, and the two
are commiserating about the business and all suggests they team
up to write a half hour comedy pilot together.
Speaker 3 (07:36):
I'm half to know how to be a writer.
Speaker 1 (07:40):
To do a half hours with The two decided to
rent a crappy office for fifty dollars a month, and
these two guys who have never written anything in their
lives sit down and write the pilot for Get Ready
for this Hogan's Heroes. Oh my god, you know it's
a familiar story. It happens over and over and over again.
(08:00):
How many men and women are sitting in rooms in
Hollywood trying to come up with something and hear Al
Ruddy and Bernie Fine, who have never written anything, start
batting around ideas, what about this, what about that? And
they come up with the idea of a prisoner of
war camp and finally it was set in the US
in the beginning. And that's when Bernie Fine took the
(08:22):
trip on a plane and he saw someone reading Von Ryan's.
Speaker 2 (08:26):
Express, the book about the German pow camp.
Speaker 1 (08:29):
Exactly when he came back, they said, hey, what about
setting it in a German prisoner of war camp during
World War Two? And bingo, that's it. The idea for
Hogan's Heroes is born.
Speaker 2 (08:42):
I think what's funny about this story is that not
only had they never written anything before, they didn't even
have an idea. So they were manufacturing an idea out
of thin air. And then they spun it into the script.
Speaker 1 (08:54):
Yeah, they spun it into a script. And then they
wanted to take it to an agent. And I think
one of them knew a friend of a friend of
a friend of a friend baby and he said, Hey,
I like this, I'll take you to CBS. Meet me there.
And it turns out they're going to meet with William S. Paley,
the head of CBS, who was in town from New
York and had decided to take a meeting from them.
Speaker 2 (09:17):
So they end up not only getting a meeting, but
getting a meeting with one of the biggest people in
the business.
Speaker 1 (09:22):
Yes, as Al Ruddy told me, it's like meety god,
I mean, you know, here's william S. Paley, the head
of the network. And so they go into the studio
and there's Paley and his executive team. Paley says, I
didn't call you here to tell you what a great
script you'd written, but to admonish you because a Nazi
prisoner of warkapp is not funny.
Speaker 2 (09:43):
I mean that's not really surprising, not at all.
Speaker 1 (09:46):
But Al Ruddy doesn't care, and he proceeds to act
out the entire pilot by himself, jumping up and down,
using a fake machine gun, the whole thing, and Bill
Paley starts to laugh, to laugh, obviously, the whole.
Speaker 3 (10:01):
Room start to laugh. Right. He said, I don't think
I defind that show, but that's the funniest thing I've
heart this year. That's a negatives to Bailey.
Speaker 2 (10:10):
And two weeks later, Ruddy gets the call that they've
decided to do the show. So, all of a sudden,
he's a wildly successful television writer and what comes next.
Speaker 1 (10:19):
So he still wants to be a movie producer, and
now he actually knows people in Hollywood and is considered
to be some kind of a genius. He gets immediate
paramount and he sits down with our friends Robert Evans
and Peter bart And what do they think of him?
They love him. I think Evans related to him a
bit well.
Speaker 2 (10:37):
They both had unlikely backstories.
Speaker 1 (10:40):
Evans came from the ladies pants business and Ruddy worked
in a shoe store.
Speaker 3 (10:44):
Bob Evans told me, he said, you know what, everyone
laughed at me when I got this job. I was
an addressed business and no one because they didn't have
any back web. I think the same thing about you, Ruddy.
I got a good feeling from it.
Speaker 1 (10:57):
You have no back web I might give.
Speaker 2 (11:01):
So they give him a job yep, and an office
on the Paramount lot.
Speaker 3 (11:05):
And so they gave me an office. So now city
on the lot. They gave me other spot right trying
to be what the fuck to do?
Speaker 2 (11:15):
So what does Ruddy do?
Speaker 3 (11:16):
Well?
Speaker 1 (11:17):
He produces a movie, a motorcycle movie called Little Files
and Big Halsey. It stars Robert Redford and it stays
under budget and grosses two million dollars. Ernie Ruddy a
reputation as a producer and get movies made on the cheap.
Speaker 2 (11:34):
I'm sure Evans loved that.
Speaker 1 (11:36):
Yes, of course, and it wasn't long before Evans and
Peter Bart were considering Ruddy to produce The Godfather.
Speaker 3 (11:43):
I get a call one time, do I want to
produce The Godfather? I thought it was a joke. Well, yes,
of course, that's my favorite book. I never read. It's
what he had in New York.
Speaker 4 (11:52):
To be Charlie Bluehorn, he.
Speaker 3 (11:54):
Has to approved the director.
Speaker 1 (11:57):
So he runs down, he said to Barnes, and no, well,
buys a copy of the book and reads it on
the plane to meet Charlie Blue dorm.
Speaker 3 (12:04):
When it comes to Charlie Blue Door, Oh, Charlie Blue
the next line, the next line forget? How would you playing?
Are you okay? The next time? What do you want
to do with this movie? I looked at him, and
I looked at the book. I want to do it?
Ice Blue terrified movie? So people you love?
Speaker 2 (12:29):
What did he mean by that? The people you love?
Speaker 3 (12:31):
Well?
Speaker 1 (12:32):
I think he was inferring that, you know the movie
was about organized crime figures, and maybe figure Charlie had
known one or two of them in his lifetime in business.
Speaker 2 (12:41):
Well, in any case, Charlie was thoroughly convinced and gave
him the job.
Speaker 1 (12:45):
Charlie figured he was the right man for the job.
And also I believe Charlie knew that, you know, Ruddy
could bring it in on a budget. And also I
think he respected Ruddy's toughness and honesty and directness.
Speaker 2 (12:57):
Isn't there a story about him putting his foot in
his on his way out the door?
Speaker 1 (13:01):
Yeah, So on his way out Ruddy wants to make
a clean escape after getting the job, you know. He
says he wants to get into the elevator and get
out of there.
Speaker 3 (13:10):
And Charlie Bluter comes walking down the hallway with a
guy in tow. He points to me, this.
Speaker 4 (13:15):
Man the genius.
Speaker 3 (13:16):
He puts his arm around me now and restles me
down the hallway.
Speaker 1 (13:20):
But before he does, he notices a poster of the Adventurers,
which was like the steamy thriller starring Candas Bergen.
Speaker 3 (13:28):
Hi press Van, I just want to get out. I
got the job. I didn't want to.
Speaker 1 (13:31):
Talk anymore, right, Oh, Charlie, I like that post so
that he.
Speaker 3 (13:35):
I said, Charlie, I think the lesson you have to
worry about. As the poster, Yeah, you met the bestment.
So in the movie this week, I said, I did Charlie,
and we break handed. I was but the only guy
I left in the theater after the intermission. I did
know one thing, Hodie. I am personally cut.
Speaker 4 (13:52):
Twenty minutes out of that movie.
Speaker 3 (13:54):
Just at the elevator door opens. Charlie cutting twenty minutes
of that movie.
Speaker 1 (13:57):
It's like Dinah Cantor trimming your toe.
Speaker 3 (14:00):
He looked at me.
Speaker 4 (14:01):
I swear to God Mark. The door closed, and I
was out.
Speaker 1 (14:07):
The elevator. Doris close, boom. Al Ruddy makes it to
the street. He still has the job.
Speaker 2 (14:13):
Wow, that's a lot different than today's Hollywood. People really
didn't mince their words back then. Okay, So, against all odds,
Al Ruddy's the new producer of The Godfather.
Speaker 1 (14:23):
Yes, and his first task is to find a screenwriter,
which leads him to the Plaza Hotel in New York
to meet with our very own Mario Puzo.
Speaker 2 (14:33):
And Ruddy was the one pushing for Pusa to write
the script. That's right, okay, So al Ruddy knew that
you didn't necessarily need screenwriting experience to be a screenwriter.
Speaker 1 (14:43):
Yeah, I guess Hogan's heroes had taught him that. But Puso,
of course made a very compelling argument when he threw
his book on the floor at the Plaza Hotel.
Speaker 4 (14:53):
He chakes the book and he throws it on the floor.
Speaker 3 (14:57):
I don't never have to look at this book again.
Speaker 4 (15:00):
I want to work at the screenplay with you.
Speaker 1 (15:03):
He offers him a salary, an office on the Paramount lot,
and puts him up in the Beverly Hills Hotel.
Speaker 2 (15:10):
Well, that sounds like saying Mario Puzo could get used.
Speaker 1 (15:13):
To, Yes, But the first thing already had to do
was convinced the only person who had veto power over
Poso's life his wife, Erica.
Speaker 2 (15:22):
And how did that go well?
Speaker 1 (15:24):
At this point, Mario and his family are living on
Long Island and Mario has diabetes. His wife, Erica is
really worried about his diet and doesn't want him to
eat himself to death in California, so Ruddy drives out
there to talk to her.
Speaker 3 (15:39):
I said, missus Pusso, I will pick Mario a pussa
up every morning and keep it with me all day,
including dinner at Knight until we.
Speaker 4 (15:45):
Do the screenplay.
Speaker 2 (15:47):
And that was that she trusted him.
Speaker 1 (15:49):
That was that Mario flew first class to Hollywood, where
already was waiting to lead him into another world.
Speaker 2 (15:57):
And how was Puso feeling?
Speaker 1 (15:59):
Was he excited?
Speaker 2 (16:00):
Nervous?
Speaker 1 (16:01):
I think a little bit of both. I'll read you
something he wrote years later, Apparently this is what he
was thinking while on the plane. To quote the Godfather,
was their picture not mine? I would be cool. I
would never get my feelings hurt. I would never get
proprietary or paranoid. I was an employee.
Speaker 2 (16:22):
He had no idea what he was getting into, did
he I don't think so. So he lanced in Hollywood
and then what straight to work?
Speaker 1 (16:29):
Well, straight to the Beverly Hills Hotel, the Pink Palace itself.
Speaker 2 (16:33):
And it could be argued that between the pool and
the Polo Lounge, the Beverly Hills Hotel is one of
the most popular off campus places to conduct business in Hollywood.
Speaker 1 (16:42):
Yet they're both storied places. But of course, Mario Puzo
found his real home, not in his suite, which was
pretty great, but on the tennis court.
Speaker 2 (16:51):
Mario was a big lover of tennis, wasn't he Yes,
he felt like that was his exercise.
Speaker 1 (16:56):
I don't know exactly how great of a tennis player was,
but he loved the and that's what he concentrated on
as much as screenwriting when he was in Los Angeles.
Speaker 2 (17:06):
So Paramount puts him up at the Beverly Hills Hotel.
Speaker 1 (17:08):
They also gave him an office on the Paramount lot
and hired him an assistant.
Speaker 2 (17:14):
The one and only Janet Snow who you spoke to
for the book and the podcast.
Speaker 4 (17:20):
It's so nice to see you, Mark. I always enjoy
talking about this. It was one of the most exciting
times of my whole life.
Speaker 2 (17:28):
Mark. Why don't we start with how Janet came to
work for Mario, because as much as this was a
life changing time for Mario, it was also a life
changing time for Janet.
Speaker 1 (17:37):
Of course. So Janet was a young woman living in
Los Angeles, and like so many LA success stories, her
story starts at a party.
Speaker 4 (17:47):
A dear friend of mine invited me to watch the
Oscars at a friend of his home in Holmby Hills,
which is our most exclusive area in Los Angeles.
Speaker 1 (18:01):
And who does she meet standing at the buffet but
Gray Frederickson The Godfather's newly minted associate producer, and Gray
only has one qualification in mind for Mario's new assistant.
Speaker 4 (18:15):
And he said, way, any chance, do you happen to
play tennis? And I said, I do play tennis, and
he said, oh my gosh, well, I have just been
hired to be the associate producer on The Godfather and
Mario Puso, the writer, just came into town and we
(18:35):
need to find an assistant for him. Would you be
interested in coming to Paramount Pictures tomorrow and meeting already
the producer and Mario Puso. And I said, sure, that
would be wonderful. I'm just reading the book now. I
love this book, and I'd love to meet Mario.
Speaker 2 (18:56):
What are the chances?
Speaker 1 (18:58):
Well, Janet's luck is seeing unending. They set the date
for the meeting at nine thirty. The next morning, Janet
goes out to the famous nightclub called Pips with her
friends and sort of forgets about the meeting.
Speaker 4 (19:10):
And the next morning I woke up it was late
and I remembered the meeting with Gray, and I looked
at my clock and I went, oh my god, it's
nine thirty. And I called him because I wasn't sure
that he really meant it. And I called him and
I said, great, Hi, this is Shanna. And he said,
(19:32):
where are you the heads of the studio. We're here,
Mario's here. Oh my god, you were supposed to be
here at nine thirty. And I said, oh my gosh,
you're serious. I'll be there. I'll be there. I'll be
right there.
Speaker 1 (19:46):
So she gets ready to go, and remember it's one thing,
she doesn't have a car.
Speaker 4 (19:51):
So in desperation, Out of desperation, I went upstairs and
knocked on the door of the building's owner and I said,
I have a very important job interview, and I don't
have a car. I don't have a way of getting there.
And he said, not a problem. Come with me. I
have a car that you can use. And we went
(20:12):
down into this big subterranean parking facility garage and he said, here,
how about this one. He opens the door to a
beautiful new white link and Continental with red leather interior,
and I just went, oh my god, thank you so much.
Speaker 1 (20:31):
She drafts the Paramount, parks her fancy borrowed car at
the director's building and walks into Already's office.
Speaker 4 (20:40):
It was a huge office and the shutters were closed
and the lights were dim and there were about six
men in the room, and they all started shooting questions
at me, and I was just kind of answering the questions,
just off the cub, and all of a sudden I
(21:01):
started to hear, Oh my god, she's perfect, and I went,
oh my god, I have to sit down.
Speaker 1 (21:09):
So just like that, she gets the job, not before
Mario Puzo does her. The first of many favors.
Speaker 4 (21:16):
I saw this very heavy man sitting on a leather
sofa with his feet up on the coffee table, and
I went and sat down next to him, and already
was sitting behind an enormous desk, and he was telling
me about the project and telling me about the Godfather
and that Mario Puzso had just arrived and that they
(21:39):
needed an assistant for Mario and would I be interested
in and I said I would be very interested. And
so all of a sudden, the heavy said man next
to me started pushing on my leg and saying something,
but I couldn't hear him. He was whispering. And then
I finally just turned to him and said what he
(22:00):
said the money? Asked about the money, and then I
already said what seems to be the problem, And I
looked toward Mario and I said, well, he said the money.
Speaker 2 (22:11):
I feel like that's so indicative of the relationship that
Mario and Janet had. He was looking out for her
from the beginning.
Speaker 1 (22:18):
Yes, the two made quite a pair because in so
many ways they were both unqualified for the jobs they had.
Mario had never written a screenplay and Janet had never
worked as an assistant. In fact, she couldn't even type.
So what did they do all day? Well, Janet talks
to the Money with Al Ruddy, gets hired, and her
(22:39):
and Mario go gets settled in Mario's new office, but
neither one of them has any idea of what to do.
Speaker 4 (22:46):
So Mario came out and he said, I don't know
what the heck I'm supposed to be doing in here.
And I said, well, I don't know what I was
supposed to be doing here either, And he said, well,
I'm going to give you your first assignment. I want
you to call me a cab and have it take
me to my hotel.
Speaker 1 (23:05):
And so she says, I don't have to call you
a cab. I have a car, And so she takes
him down to the director's building lot and he sees
all these wonderful cars there of the Director's, Ferrari's probably,
and Cadillacs, and who knows what else, and sees a
beat up old Volkswagen and he assumes that's Janet's.
Speaker 4 (23:24):
Car and Mario I noticed Mario's starting to try to
open the door of the Volkswagen. I go, Mario, what
are you doing?
Speaker 5 (23:34):
And he said, well, isn't this your car? And I said, no, no,
this is my car. And he looks at this white
Lincoln Continental. So we get in the car and we
drive out of Paramount and I.
Speaker 4 (23:49):
Put the top down and we're driving along Melrose and
he's got his arm out the window holding a cigar,
leaning on the door, and he just screams wow. And
then he looks down. He saw the phone and he
(24:11):
said what's that And I said, well, god's a telephone.
And he said, who can you call on that phone?
And I said, well, you can call anybody in the
world on that phone, and he said, oh my god,
get me already. I said sure, and I called the
mobile operator and got already picks up the phone and
(24:31):
he just again screams wow.
Speaker 2 (24:35):
So Mario's got a suite at the Beverly Hills Hotel
in office and an assistant who can't type. What could
possibly go wrong?
Speaker 1 (24:43):
Well, he's supposed to be writing the screamplay, but he's
totally bewildered. He has no idea what to do, so
Already tells him to get every plot point typed out
on an index card.
Speaker 2 (24:55):
But Janet can't type.
Speaker 1 (24:56):
No, she cannot, but the two of them figure away
around that.
Speaker 4 (25:01):
So Mario came into my office and he saw me
struggling as much as he was struggling in his office,
and he said, what are we doing? You're more valuable
on the tennis court than you are at that typewriter,
and I don't want to be sitting here on this
beautiful day. So let's find a typing service and we
can have them type the book on three by five
(25:24):
cards and we can go off and play tennis, of
which we did.
Speaker 1 (25:29):
They outsourced it, yes, and Janet wanted to show the
completed notes to Already on Monday, but Mario taught us
something about the fine art of procrastination.
Speaker 4 (25:40):
We went to the studio and I said, I'm going
to take this box of three by five cards down
to al and he said, don't be a dope, Ganet.
We can run this thing out. Nobody could type the
book over the weekend on three by five cards you
out to hand in just a little bit each day.
(26:01):
And I went, oh, my gosh, Mario, thanks for guiding me.
Speaker 2 (26:04):
I just never would have.
Speaker 4 (26:06):
Thought of that.
Speaker 2 (26:07):
So he's found a way to put off writing the script.
What's he doing in the meantime, Well, he's having a
great time.
Speaker 1 (26:13):
He and Jatted are playing tennis. He's going to restaurants,
and of course the social invitation start rolling in.
Speaker 4 (26:19):
The word got out that Mario was in Los Angeles,
and the phone started ringing. There were lunch invitations, dinner invitations.
He was very shy, and he liked me being there.
And I enjoyed being there because the people were fascinating
and it was fun.
Speaker 2 (26:40):
And a big feature of his time in Hollywood is
that Puzzo gets to meet some of his idols.
Speaker 1 (26:45):
Yes, and there's a story that I just love about.
One day in the Beverly Hills Hotel, his phone rings
with yet another social invitation.
Speaker 4 (26:54):
I picked up the phone and this incredible voice said,
there's Mario Puzo there. I said, who's calling? And he
said Orson Wells and I said, well, moment please. I
went the other room and I said, Mario, somebody by
the name of Orson Wells. And he goes Orson Wells
(27:16):
and I said yes, And he went and picked up
the phone and he said hello, and he started talking
with him and he said, oh, my goodness, I love
to Yes, absolutely, of course, and then he hung the
phone up and he turned to me and he goes, Janet,
that was Orson Wells, one of the most talented people ever.
(27:39):
And he's taken a bungalow at the hotel and he's
invited us to come over. And so we get to
this beautiful bungalow and the door opens and this very
large man, Alita Cigar, welcomes us and we sat down
and Mario and Orson well start to talking and it
(28:01):
was the most hypnotizing, brilliant, clever, creative, intelligent conversation I
had ever heard, and still maybe have ever heard.
Speaker 2 (28:16):
So Puso's an unlikely sensation. When he hits the ground
in Hollywood. He's sort of a celebrity, at least by
the standards of a popular writer.
Speaker 1 (28:24):
He was, you know, he's going to the studio, he's
going to dinner in lunch with people he had never
met before. And of course he's always going to Vegas
to indulge in his passion for gambling.
Speaker 2 (28:36):
And Janet Snow was sort of his chaperone this whole time.
Speaker 1 (28:39):
Yes, And in Janet, he had someone who knew the town,
who lived there. She grew up there, and so she
knew Los Angeles. She was kind of the perfect assistant
for him.
Speaker 2 (28:48):
Do you think I already hired Janet because he got
the sense that he wasn't going to be able to
make good on his promise to Puso's wife.
Speaker 1 (28:56):
I don't know about that. But there's a funny story
Alreaddy tells. You know, he's trying to watch Puso's weight,
and he's going to breakfast in lunch with him, he says,
and he's eating, you know, boiled pears and poached eggs,
and they're both having grapefruit and trying to lose weight.
And while Ruddy, who's already then keeps losing weight, Mario
(29:16):
kept gaining weight. And one night he goes into this
Los Angeles pizza parlor that he went to all the time,
and the owner of the place says man that Mario
Puso's a great guy, and Ruddy says, what, how do
you know Mario Puso? And he goes, well, I bring
him a pizza every night at the Beverly Hills Hotel.
Speaker 2 (29:37):
So he was ordering on the sly. It's incredible. So
at this point, the script that Puso is working on
closely follows the Godfather book right exactly.
Speaker 1 (29:49):
You can see early drafts of it in the archives
at Dartmouth University.
Speaker 2 (29:54):
Do you think that the producers of the Godfather had
any sense that Mario wasn't going to be the man
to deliver the final screenplay of The Godfather?
Speaker 1 (30:03):
Well, I think probably so. Although early drafts of his
screenplay were pretty well received by Peter Bart, he gave
a lot of notes which still exists. He said he
was off to a good start. You know, he knew
the material like nobody else did. He had written The
Godfather the novel, so he knew the story best. But
he needed someone with some experience writing screenplays to help him,
(30:25):
and they were looking for a director throughout this period.
They just couldn't find anyone who wanted to do the movie,
which was crazy enough in itself.
Speaker 2 (30:34):
So as he's approaching a completed first draft of his script,
what does Puso do?
Speaker 1 (30:39):
So Puso is unleashed. You know, he's able to embark
upon what he calls his Hollywood adventures, most notably a
famous run in with Frank Sinatra at Chasin's.
Speaker 2 (30:52):
This is the real life Johnny Fontaine, the womanizing singer
who appeals to the Godfather for help at the beginning
of the film.
Speaker 1 (31:00):
And you know, Frank Sinatra was reportedly unhappy with the
depiction of Johnny Fontaine, which is much more elaborate in
the book than it turns out to be in the film.
Speaker 2 (31:11):
And in nineteen sixty nine, Sinatra had just come out
with My Way, so he's about as big as an
artist can get at this point.
Speaker 1 (31:17):
Well, Frank Sinatra was a superstar, probably the greatest Italian
American singer of all time.
Speaker 2 (31:24):
So Mario Puzzo knew who Frank Sinatra was and probably
modeled the character of Johnny Fontaine on him.
Speaker 1 (31:31):
Well, not only knew who he was, he adored him,
He idolized him. He said, when he was growing up
in Hell's kitchen, there were two pictures on the wall
one of John F. Kennedy and the other of Frank Sinatra.
He was iconic in Mario's eyes.
Speaker 2 (31:47):
And Sinatra was an Italian American success story. He was
from Hoboken, New Jersey, which is not far away from
where Mario Puzo grew up in Hell's Kitchen, and he
represented that Italian American way of life.
Speaker 1 (32:01):
Yeah, he was a huge success story. I mean, Mario
surely looked up to him as a supreme entertainer and
also as a success story of a young man who
could come out of Hoboken and capture the hearts and
minds of the world with his talent. You know. In
many ways their stories were similar, except that Mario was
kind of the flip side of Frank Sinatra. He wasn't
(32:23):
the handsome movie star suave singer, but his talent was
that he could write, you know. And so Mario Puzo
and Frank Sinatra had a lot in common and then
a lot different as well.
Speaker 2 (32:35):
So this is all a roundabout way of saying that
when Puzo spotted Sinatra across the room and chasin's that
faithful night, he was excited and knew.
Speaker 1 (32:45):
Who he was right exactly, He knew who he was.
He said in his book The Godfather Chronicles that he
saw Frank Sinatra and John Wayne and Chasin's looking like
two gods.
Speaker 3 (32:56):
You know.
Speaker 1 (32:56):
They were tanned and thin and fit, and they were
just movie stars. They were stars.
Speaker 2 (33:03):
And Janet Snow was actually there, so she has her
account of what happened that evening.
Speaker 1 (33:07):
Yes, and this is one of those stories that has
a few versions, but Janet was there, and she says
that she drove them to Chasin's. They walked in and
people started flooding Mario Puzo for autographs, and across the
room she spot Sinatra, and she already knows that Sinatra
is unhappy with Mario's depiction of Johnny Fontaine in the book.
(33:28):
So the two sit down for dinner, and here's how
Janet says it happened.
Speaker 4 (33:33):
I excuse myself and go to the lady's room. And
I came back and Mario was gone, and I sat down.
I thought, oh, maybe he went to the men's room.
So I'm just sitting there, and then it occurs to me,
I look over at Sinatra's table, and oh, my god,
Mario's standing at Sinatra's table, and so I ran over
(33:57):
and I looked at Mario and his face was ushen,
and Sinatra was looking down at the table, at his
plate and speaking in Italian, and he was very unhappy,
and I couldn't understand what he was saying, and I
just knew I had to get Mario out of there
(34:20):
right then.
Speaker 2 (34:22):
So what did Sinatra actually say to Puso.
Speaker 1 (34:25):
Well, it's kind of a mystery, but according to Mario,
he approached Sinatra to meet him just as a fan,
and Sinatra was very adamant that he did not want
to meet Mario Puzso. So Puso starts apologizing for approaching him. Well,
Sinatra takes that as an apology for the Johnny Fontaine
character in the book, and Sinatra asked him, who told
(34:48):
you to put that in your book? Your publisher? And
Puzzo sets the record straight, No one tells him what
to put in his books. He said he was apologizing
for trying to meet Sinatra and nothing else, which is
when Sinatra started yelling at him.
Speaker 2 (35:03):
Do you think Mario intended Johnny Fontaine as this sort
of admiring portrait of Sinatra, You.
Speaker 1 (35:09):
Know, I think so. But at the same time, he
didn't hold back. When you read the parts about Johnny
Fontayne in the novel, I could see it why Frank
Sinatra might not have been happy with it. And even
in the movie, you know, Johnny Fontayne, he's slapped by
the Godfather when he starts crying about his career. So
there's good and bad about Johnny Fontaine in the movie.
(35:32):
I mean, obviously they make it clear that he's a
huge star, the way he comes into the wedding scene
and Connie yos Johnny Johnny, and the mother says, Johnny
sing us a song, and you know, it's just so romantic.
It seems like it would be like that if Frank
Sinatra walked into a wedding like Johnny Fontainne did.
Speaker 2 (35:51):
But Puso certainly didn't mean anything bad to Sinatra by it.
Speaker 1 (35:55):
I don't think so. He's a writer. He didn't call
him Frank Sinatra. He called to Johnny Fontayne, which I
love the name, don't you. It's just the perfect name.
If you read the novel, there's a lot about him
that I could see Frank Sinatra would not have liked,
especially if he built like it was being modeled on him.
Speaker 2 (36:13):
But if you look at the movie it was worth
including those Johnny Fontaine sections because they are really some
of the most iconic ones in the film.
Speaker 3 (36:21):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (36:21):
Well, Johnny Fontaine's the reason for the whole horses head seen,
you know, because Jack Waltz wouldn't give him the role
in that war picture he was making. You know, no
way Johnny Fontaine gets that part in the movie. So
without Johnny Fontayne, you wouldn't have had those extraordinary scenes
of the horse's head and then all of a sudden
(36:42):
they cut to the Godfather's office and the flowers from Johnny,
you know, thanking the Godfather for getting him the part
in that movie. I mean, without Johnny Fontaine, you'd be
missing a lot.
Speaker 2 (36:54):
Do you think this was a wake up call for
Pozzo and sort of his first exposure to Holly would ego.
Speaker 4 (37:01):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (37:01):
I think he probably felt like, we're not in Kansas anymore,
you know. But at the same time, he wasn't by
any means innocent. I think he knew what he was
getting into, and he was a very smart man. He
knew the town was different than where he had grown up.
But he grew up in New York. Let's face it,
he grew up in Hell's kitchen. He was used to
(37:23):
all sorts of people, so he was not naive in anyway.
Speaker 2 (37:29):
Well, Mark, let's talk about how Copla came into the picture.
At this point, there's a draft of the script, but
there's no director attached to do anything with it.
Speaker 1 (37:38):
Yes, So Paramount was looking for a bankable director to
direct The Godfather. It was going to be a big
release and they wanted an equally big name in charge.
They went out to a bunch of directors like Sam
Peckinpaul and Auto Primenger, but they either weren't right or
they didn't want to be involved. It was considered glorifying
the mafia, and most bankable director weren't interested in that.
(38:02):
And then one day, on the drive to work together,
Peter Bart and Robert Evans got to talking and they
hit upon the idea that what was missing in most
of the gangster films of those days, including The Brotherhood
starring Kirk Douglas and Scarface starring Jimmy Cagney, they didn't
feature Italian Americans in leading roles, and so that was
(38:22):
a difference. And so Evans says, he wants to create
a movie that is so authentically Italian American that you
can smell the spaghetti, and nothing could be more authentic
than having an Italian American director, and only one name
came to mind, Francis Ford Coppola. Leave the Gun, Take
(38:52):
the Canoli as a production of Airmail and iHeartMedia.
Speaker 2 (38:56):
The podcast is based on the book of the same name,
written by her very own Mark Seal.
Speaker 1 (39:01):
Our producer is Tina Mullin.
Speaker 2 (39:03):
Research assistance by Jack Sullivan.
Speaker 1 (39:06):
Jonathan Dressler was our development producer.
Speaker 2 (39:09):
Our music supervisor is Randall Poster. Our executive producers are
Meet Nathan King, Mark Siel, Doan Fagan and Graydon.
Speaker 1 (39:18):
Carter Special Banks to Bridget Arseno and everyone at c
DM Studios.
Speaker 2 (39:24):
A comprehensive list of sources and acknowledgments can be found
in Mark Sieal's book, Leave the Gun, Take the Canolli,
published by Gallery Books, an imprint of Simon and Schuster.
It's spring of nineteen sixty four. Mario Puzo walks into
the Plaza Hotel, sweating in an overcoat, with slick black
hair and a copy of his best selling novel tucked
under his arm. He's feeling skeptical. A producer from Paramount
wants to turn his four hundred and forty eight page
novel into a movie, and they want him, a novelist
(00:24):
who's never written a screenplay, to write the script. It's
been a year since The Godfather came out. Mario assumed
Paramount wasn't interested in the option anymore. He wasn't so
old either. For the first time in his life, Mario
Puzo is not broke. Adapting his novel into a screenplay
sounds like work. He sits down with a thin man
(00:47):
named Al Ruddy and Ruddy's wife, Francoise. Ruddy cuts to
the chase and tells him he's out on a limb
for Mario. No one in Hollywood trusts authors to adapt
their own books. Worried Mario will be too precious with
the novel, Mario is ready to walk away. It's just
not worth it. Just then, Francoise opens her purse and
(01:10):
pulls out a miniature poodle who lets out a little yip.
Mario is enchanted. Suddenly he wants the job. He throws
his copy of The Godfather onto the carpeted floor and
says to Ruddy, you have my word of honor. I'll
never look at that book again. Ruddy extends his hand
(01:31):
and says, Mario, you just got the job. I'm Mark
Seal and I'm Nathan King. This is leave the gun,
take the canoli.
Speaker 2 (01:49):
In this episode will chronicle the rise of The Godfather
stalwart producer Al Ruddy.
Speaker 1 (01:55):
And check in on our lovable author Mario Puzzo and
see how he's adjusting to his new life in Hollywood.
Speaker 2 (02:08):
So, Mark, if Mario Puzzo was an unlikely screenwriter and
Al Ruddy was an even more unlikely producer.
Speaker 1 (02:16):
Yeah, very much so. When Al Ruddy got the job
to produce The Godfather, he was known as the guy
to get things done, but his path the Hollywood was
extremely round about.
Speaker 2 (02:27):
Yeah. Like so many other characters in this story, Al
Ruddy was an immigrant as well.
Speaker 1 (02:32):
Yes, he was from Canada, and he immigrated with his
mom and two siblings when he was seven. And I
was lucky enough to speak with him on the phone
and in person a few times over the course of
my reporting, and he told me many stories, including their
immigration story.
Speaker 3 (02:49):
She came to the United States. My mother took three kids.
She stuck over the border. She had it with my father,
who was an alcoholic and abused you because he threw us.
We drove over the border one night, ed up in
New York and that's where we sat. Oh, my mother
told us, remember, he's a way to being deported. They
asked you what you were boring? Say, you don't know.
Speaker 2 (03:12):
So what was Ruddy's upbringing like in New York?
Speaker 1 (03:14):
Well, he went to Brooklyn Technical High School and then
worked his way through school at USC as an architecture
major of all things.
Speaker 2 (03:23):
So very applicable to the movie business.
Speaker 1 (03:25):
Yeah, I don't think show business was even on his
radar yet. But after college he ended up in a
job that would be surprisingly relevant to his later career.
He moves back east and gets a job supervising construction
crews on a housing development in New Jersey.
Speaker 2 (03:43):
That's a great connection. He's orchestrating all these huge groups
of people and dealing with unions, trying to stay on
a budget. The housing development is pretty much like a movie.
Speaker 1 (03:53):
Yeah, but not nearly as glamorous.
Speaker 2 (03:55):
Right did he know at this point he wanted to
be a producer.
Speaker 1 (03:58):
I don't think so at this point, but he didn't
know what he wanted. But he didn't know what he
didn't want. He told me that when he went to quit,
his boss tried to offer him more money, but he
just wasn't having it.
Speaker 3 (04:09):
Let's just see if you get it. I'm not leaving
because of the money. I just didn't want to grow.
Speaker 4 (04:13):
Up to be here.
Speaker 3 (04:13):
One day and Budd boots twenty years from him, looking
at another suite, New Jersey.
Speaker 2 (04:19):
So he moves back to California, and this is when
he starts working at the Ranch Corporation. It was a
military think tank, which seems a little bit strange to me.
Speaker 1 (04:28):
Yeah, it is a bit strange, but being already he
promptly rose through the ranks, just as he did wherever
you went. He got an assistant and started bailing on
work so he could, as he put it, have his
adventures in Hollywood as a jack.
Speaker 3 (04:43):
I may not be in this office all the time,
twenty four hours a day, but what something urgent comes
through for me and cover for me, it's right, absolutely,
don't worry about Well, once Jack Kack just started, I
had time to roam around Hollywood.
Speaker 2 (04:56):
What kind of adventures are we talking?
Speaker 1 (04:58):
So at this point he knew he wanted to work
and show business, but he had no idea about how
to break in. Naturally, he buys a Jaguar x K
one twenty and starts roaming around town.
Speaker 2 (05:11):
Now he's sounding like a movie producer. But what did
he expect just to drive a fancy car around town
and someone would point him out and invite him to
come work in the movies.
Speaker 1 (05:20):
Well that's what almost happened being Al Ruddy. One day
on his way to work in his new Jaguar, something
amazing happens.
Speaker 3 (05:29):
I was driving to work one day and there was
a big juice. So I shout at the lifeless asier
the window and said, keV watah, maybe we get a
part time job there? Pay by Carl offense going there,
and the guy sees me, I said, hey, I sell
you a sign on the window. I'd love to hear
a jobbing a part time I don't want to part
time guys, now I needed both times, I said, listen,
(05:51):
I could sell more fucking shoes part time than any
guy you got selling shoes both times? Oh really?
Speaker 1 (05:58):
And according to Ruddy, a woman walks in who needs
some shoes, and he sells their fourteen pairs of shoes immediately,
And of course the owner of the shop says, you
got the job part time.
Speaker 2 (06:11):
How's working in a shoe store going to get him
a Hollywood producer job. That seems like a pretty big leap.
Speaker 1 (06:16):
Well, it's all about who you know, Nathan, and that
store would prove to be the perfect place to meet people.
One day, a friend of Alice, an agent named Elliott Cassner,
comes into the store with his buddy Brian Hutting.
Speaker 3 (06:29):
Elli and Kanson brings Brian Hutting around to my shoe
store on Saturday to meet me, and he thinks I'd
be a great for He goes there, and.
Speaker 1 (06:37):
Brian'll be a great direct Brian was an actor who
had secured the rights to a hit Broadway play called
The Connection, and he wanted to stage it in California.
So Brian and Elliott convince Al that he should produce
the play, and of course they needed help with financing,
so al says, there's only one person he can think of,
(06:58):
who has any money. A young woman he went to
school with, who has output it had always had the
hots for him. He convinced her to invest fifteen grand
in the production, and just like that, Al Ruddy is
a producer.
Speaker 2 (07:15):
God, this guy can talk his way into anything.
Speaker 1 (07:17):
Nathan, you have no idea. So after that play, Alan
Bryan Hunting go on to produce a script for Marlon
Brando's studio and Universal puts it out. And then Al
Ruddy meets an actor named Bernie Fine, and the two
are commiserating about the business and all suggests they team
up to write a half hour comedy pilot together.
Speaker 3 (07:36):
I'm half to know how to be a writer.
Speaker 1 (07:40):
To do a half hours with The two decided to
rent a crappy office for fifty dollars a month, and
these two guys who have never written anything in their
lives sit down and write the pilot for Get Ready
for this Hogan's Heroes. Oh my god, you know it's
a familiar story. It happens over and over and over again.
(08:00):
How many men and women are sitting in rooms in
Hollywood trying to come up with something and hear Al
Ruddy and Bernie Fine, who have never written anything, start
batting around ideas, what about this, what about that? And
they come up with the idea of a prisoner of
war camp and finally it was set in the US
in the beginning. And that's when Bernie Fine took the
(08:22):
trip on a plane and he saw someone reading Von Ryan's.
Speaker 2 (08:26):
Express, the book about the German pow camp.
Speaker 1 (08:29):
Exactly when he came back, they said, hey, what about
setting it in a German prisoner of war camp during
World War Two? And bingo, that's it. The idea for
Hogan's Heroes is born.
Speaker 2 (08:42):
I think what's funny about this story is that not
only had they never written anything before, they didn't even
have an idea. So they were manufacturing an idea out
of thin air. And then they spun it into the script.
Speaker 1 (08:54):
Yeah, they spun it into a script. And then they
wanted to take it to an agent. And I think
one of them knew a friend of a friend of
a friend of a friend baby and he said, Hey,
I like this, I'll take you to CBS. Meet me there.
And it turns out they're going to meet with William S. Paley,
the head of CBS, who was in town from New
York and had decided to take a meeting from them.
Speaker 2 (09:17):
So they end up not only getting a meeting, but
getting a meeting with one of the biggest people in
the business.
Speaker 1 (09:22):
Yes, as Al Ruddy told me, it's like meety god,
I mean, you know, here's william S. Paley, the head
of the network. And so they go into the studio
and there's Paley and his executive team. Paley says, I
didn't call you here to tell you what a great
script you'd written, but to admonish you because a Nazi
prisoner of warkapp is not funny.
Speaker 2 (09:43):
I mean that's not really surprising, not at all.
Speaker 1 (09:46):
But Al Ruddy doesn't care, and he proceeds to act
out the entire pilot by himself, jumping up and down,
using a fake machine gun, the whole thing, and Bill
Paley starts to laugh, to laugh, obviously, the whole.
Speaker 3 (10:01):
Room start to laugh. Right. He said, I don't think
I defind that show, but that's the funniest thing I've
heart this year. That's a negatives to Bailey.
Speaker 2 (10:10):
And two weeks later, Ruddy gets the call that they've
decided to do the show. So, all of a sudden,
he's a wildly successful television writer and what comes next.
Speaker 1 (10:19):
So he still wants to be a movie producer, and
now he actually knows people in Hollywood and is considered
to be some kind of a genius. He gets immediate
paramount and he sits down with our friends Robert Evans
and Peter bart And what do they think of him?
They love him. I think Evans related to him a
bit well.
Speaker 2 (10:37):
They both had unlikely backstories.
Speaker 1 (10:40):
Evans came from the ladies pants business and Ruddy worked
in a shoe store.
Speaker 3 (10:44):
Bob Evans told me, he said, you know what, everyone
laughed at me when I got this job. I was
an addressed business and no one because they didn't have
any back web. I think the same thing about you, Ruddy.
I got a good feeling from it.
Speaker 1 (10:57):
You have no back web I might give.
Speaker 2 (11:01):
So they give him a job yep, and an office
on the Paramount lot.
Speaker 3 (11:05):
And so they gave me an office. So now city
on the lot. They gave me other spot right trying
to be what the fuck to do?
Speaker 2 (11:15):
So what does Ruddy do?
Speaker 3 (11:16):
Well?
Speaker 1 (11:17):
He produces a movie, a motorcycle movie called Little Files
and Big Halsey. It stars Robert Redford and it stays
under budget and grosses two million dollars. Ernie Ruddy a
reputation as a producer and get movies made on the cheap.
Speaker 2 (11:34):
I'm sure Evans loved that.
Speaker 1 (11:36):
Yes, of course, and it wasn't long before Evans and
Peter Bart were considering Ruddy to produce The Godfather.
Speaker 3 (11:43):
I get a call one time, do I want to
produce The Godfather? I thought it was a joke. Well, yes,
of course, that's my favorite book. I never read. It's
what he had in New York.
Speaker 4 (11:52):
To be Charlie Bluehorn, he.
Speaker 3 (11:54):
Has to approved the director.
Speaker 1 (11:57):
So he runs down, he said to Barnes, and no, well,
buys a copy of the book and reads it on
the plane to meet Charlie Blue dorm.
Speaker 3 (12:04):
When it comes to Charlie Blue Door, Oh, Charlie Blue
the next line, the next line forget? How would you playing?
Are you okay? The next time? What do you want
to do with this movie? I looked at him, and
I looked at the book. I want to do it?
Ice Blue terrified movie? So people you love?
Speaker 2 (12:29):
What did he mean by that? The people you love?
Speaker 3 (12:31):
Well?
Speaker 1 (12:32):
I think he was inferring that, you know the movie
was about organized crime figures, and maybe figure Charlie had
known one or two of them in his lifetime in business.
Speaker 2 (12:41):
Well, in any case, Charlie was thoroughly convinced and gave
him the job.
Speaker 1 (12:45):
Charlie figured he was the right man for the job.
And also I believe Charlie knew that, you know, Ruddy
could bring it in on a budget. And also I
think he respected Ruddy's toughness and honesty and directness.
Speaker 2 (12:57):
Isn't there a story about him putting his foot in
his on his way out the door?
Speaker 1 (13:01):
Yeah, So on his way out Ruddy wants to make
a clean escape after getting the job, you know. He
says he wants to get into the elevator and get
out of there.
Speaker 3 (13:10):
And Charlie Bluter comes walking down the hallway with a
guy in tow. He points to me, this.
Speaker 4 (13:15):
Man the genius.
Speaker 3 (13:16):
He puts his arm around me now and restles me
down the hallway.
Speaker 1 (13:20):
But before he does, he notices a poster of the Adventurers,
which was like the steamy thriller starring Candas Bergen.
Speaker 3 (13:28):
Hi press Van, I just want to get out. I
got the job. I didn't want to.
Speaker 1 (13:31):
Talk anymore, right, Oh, Charlie, I like that post so
that he.
Speaker 3 (13:35):
I said, Charlie, I think the lesson you have to
worry about. As the poster, Yeah, you met the bestment.
So in the movie this week, I said, I did Charlie,
and we break handed. I was but the only guy
I left in the theater after the intermission. I did
know one thing, Hodie. I am personally cut.
Speaker 4 (13:52):
Twenty minutes out of that movie.
Speaker 3 (13:54):
Just at the elevator door opens. Charlie cutting twenty minutes
of that movie.
Speaker 1 (13:57):
It's like Dinah Cantor trimming your toe.
Speaker 3 (14:00):
He looked at me.
Speaker 4 (14:01):
I swear to God Mark. The door closed, and I
was out.
Speaker 1 (14:07):
The elevator. Doris close, boom. Al Ruddy makes it to
the street. He still has the job.
Speaker 2 (14:13):
Wow, that's a lot different than today's Hollywood. People really
didn't mince their words back then. Okay, So, against all odds,
Al Ruddy's the new producer of The Godfather.
Speaker 1 (14:23):
Yes, and his first task is to find a screenwriter,
which leads him to the Plaza Hotel in New York
to meet with our very own Mario Puzo.
Speaker 2 (14:33):
And Ruddy was the one pushing for Pusa to write
the script. That's right, okay, So al Ruddy knew that
you didn't necessarily need screenwriting experience to be a screenwriter.
Speaker 1 (14:43):
Yeah, I guess Hogan's heroes had taught him that. But Puso,
of course made a very compelling argument when he threw
his book on the floor at the Plaza Hotel.
Speaker 4 (14:53):
He chakes the book and he throws it on the floor.
Speaker 3 (14:57):
I don't never have to look at this book again.
Speaker 4 (15:00):
I want to work at the screenplay with you.
Speaker 1 (15:03):
He offers him a salary, an office on the Paramount lot,
and puts him up in the Beverly Hills Hotel.
Speaker 2 (15:10):
Well, that sounds like saying Mario Puzo could get used.
Speaker 1 (15:13):
To, Yes, But the first thing already had to do
was convinced the only person who had veto power over
Poso's life his wife, Erica.
Speaker 2 (15:22):
And how did that go well?
Speaker 1 (15:24):
At this point, Mario and his family are living on
Long Island and Mario has diabetes. His wife, Erica is
really worried about his diet and doesn't want him to
eat himself to death in California, so Ruddy drives out
there to talk to her.
Speaker 3 (15:39):
I said, missus Pusso, I will pick Mario a pussa
up every morning and keep it with me all day,
including dinner at Knight until we.
Speaker 4 (15:45):
Do the screenplay.
Speaker 2 (15:47):
And that was that she trusted him.
Speaker 1 (15:49):
That was that Mario flew first class to Hollywood, where
already was waiting to lead him into another world.
Speaker 2 (15:57):
And how was Puso feeling?
Speaker 1 (15:59):
Was he excited?
Speaker 2 (16:00):
Nervous?
Speaker 1 (16:01):
I think a little bit of both. I'll read you
something he wrote years later, Apparently this is what he
was thinking while on the plane. To quote the Godfather,
was their picture not mine? I would be cool. I
would never get my feelings hurt. I would never get
proprietary or paranoid. I was an employee.
Speaker 2 (16:22):
He had no idea what he was getting into, did
he I don't think so. So he lanced in Hollywood
and then what straight to work?
Speaker 1 (16:29):
Well, straight to the Beverly Hills Hotel, the Pink Palace itself.
Speaker 2 (16:33):
And it could be argued that between the pool and
the Polo Lounge, the Beverly Hills Hotel is one of
the most popular off campus places to conduct business in Hollywood.
Speaker 1 (16:42):
Yet they're both storied places. But of course, Mario Puzo
found his real home, not in his suite, which was
pretty great, but on the tennis court.
Speaker 2 (16:51):
Mario was a big lover of tennis, wasn't he Yes,
he felt like that was his exercise.
Speaker 1 (16:56):
I don't know exactly how great of a tennis player was,
but he loved the and that's what he concentrated on
as much as screenwriting when he was in Los Angeles.
Speaker 2 (17:06):
So Paramount puts him up at the Beverly Hills Hotel.
Speaker 1 (17:08):
They also gave him an office on the Paramount lot
and hired him an assistant.
Speaker 2 (17:14):
The one and only Janet Snow who you spoke to
for the book and the podcast.
Speaker 4 (17:20):
It's so nice to see you, Mark. I always enjoy
talking about this. It was one of the most exciting
times of my whole life.
Speaker 2 (17:28):
Mark. Why don't we start with how Janet came to
work for Mario, because as much as this was a
life changing time for Mario, it was also a life
changing time for Janet.
Speaker 1 (17:37):
Of course. So Janet was a young woman living in
Los Angeles, and like so many LA success stories, her
story starts at a party.
Speaker 4 (17:47):
A dear friend of mine invited me to watch the
Oscars at a friend of his home in Holmby Hills,
which is our most exclusive area in Los Angeles.
Speaker 1 (18:01):
And who does she meet standing at the buffet but
Gray Frederickson The Godfather's newly minted associate producer, and Gray
only has one qualification in mind for Mario's new assistant.
Speaker 4 (18:15):
And he said, way, any chance, do you happen to
play tennis? And I said, I do play tennis, and
he said, oh my gosh, well, I have just been
hired to be the associate producer on The Godfather and
Mario Puso, the writer, just came into town and we
(18:35):
need to find an assistant for him. Would you be
interested in coming to Paramount Pictures tomorrow and meeting already
the producer and Mario Puso. And I said, sure, that
would be wonderful. I'm just reading the book now. I
love this book, and I'd love to meet Mario.
Speaker 2 (18:56):
What are the chances?
Speaker 1 (18:58):
Well, Janet's luck is seeing unending. They set the date
for the meeting at nine thirty. The next morning, Janet
goes out to the famous nightclub called Pips with her
friends and sort of forgets about the meeting.
Speaker 4 (19:10):
And the next morning I woke up it was late
and I remembered the meeting with Gray, and I looked
at my clock and I went, oh my god, it's
nine thirty. And I called him because I wasn't sure
that he really meant it. And I called him and
I said, great, Hi, this is Shanna. And he said,
(19:32):
where are you the heads of the studio. We're here,
Mario's here. Oh my god, you were supposed to be
here at nine thirty. And I said, oh my gosh,
you're serious. I'll be there. I'll be there. I'll be
right there.
Speaker 1 (19:46):
So she gets ready to go, and remember it's one thing,
she doesn't have a car.
Speaker 4 (19:51):
So in desperation, Out of desperation, I went upstairs and
knocked on the door of the building's owner and I said,
I have a very important job interview, and I don't
have a car. I don't have a way of getting there.
And he said, not a problem. Come with me. I
have a car that you can use. And we went
(20:12):
down into this big subterranean parking facility garage and he said, here,
how about this one. He opens the door to a
beautiful new white link and Continental with red leather interior,
and I just went, oh my god, thank you so much.
Speaker 1 (20:31):
She drafts the Paramount, parks her fancy borrowed car at
the director's building and walks into Already's office.
Speaker 4 (20:40):
It was a huge office and the shutters were closed
and the lights were dim and there were about six
men in the room, and they all started shooting questions
at me, and I was just kind of answering the questions,
just off the cub, and all of a sudden I
(21:01):
started to hear, Oh my god, she's perfect, and I went,
oh my god, I have to sit down.
Speaker 1 (21:09):
So just like that, she gets the job, not before
Mario Puzo does her. The first of many favors.
Speaker 4 (21:16):
I saw this very heavy man sitting on a leather
sofa with his feet up on the coffee table, and
I went and sat down next to him, and already
was sitting behind an enormous desk, and he was telling
me about the project and telling me about the Godfather
and that Mario Puzso had just arrived and that they
(21:39):
needed an assistant for Mario and would I be interested
in and I said I would be very interested. And
so all of a sudden, the heavy said man next
to me started pushing on my leg and saying something,
but I couldn't hear him. He was whispering. And then
I finally just turned to him and said what he
(22:00):
said the money? Asked about the money, and then I
already said what seems to be the problem, And I
looked toward Mario and I said, well, he said the money.
Speaker 2 (22:11):
I feel like that's so indicative of the relationship that
Mario and Janet had. He was looking out for her
from the beginning.
Speaker 1 (22:18):
Yes, the two made quite a pair because in so
many ways they were both unqualified for the jobs they had.
Mario had never written a screenplay and Janet had never
worked as an assistant. In fact, she couldn't even type.
So what did they do all day? Well, Janet talks
to the Money with Al Ruddy, gets hired, and her
(22:39):
and Mario go gets settled in Mario's new office, but
neither one of them has any idea of what to do.
Speaker 4 (22:46):
So Mario came out and he said, I don't know
what the heck I'm supposed to be doing in here.
And I said, well, I don't know what I was
supposed to be doing here either, And he said, well,
I'm going to give you your first assignment. I want
you to call me a cab and have it take
me to my hotel.
Speaker 1 (23:05):
And so she says, I don't have to call you
a cab. I have a car, And so she takes
him down to the director's building lot and he sees
all these wonderful cars there of the Director's, Ferrari's probably,
and Cadillacs, and who knows what else, and sees a
beat up old Volkswagen and he assumes that's Janet's.
Speaker 4 (23:24):
Car and Mario I noticed Mario's starting to try to
open the door of the Volkswagen. I go, Mario, what
are you doing?
Speaker 5 (23:34):
And he said, well, isn't this your car? And I said, no, no,
this is my car. And he looks at this white
Lincoln Continental. So we get in the car and we
drive out of Paramount and I.
Speaker 4 (23:49):
Put the top down and we're driving along Melrose and
he's got his arm out the window holding a cigar,
leaning on the door, and he just screams wow. And
then he looks down. He saw the phone and he
(24:11):
said what's that And I said, well, god's a telephone.
And he said, who can you call on that phone?
And I said, well, you can call anybody in the
world on that phone, and he said, oh my god,
get me already. I said sure, and I called the
mobile operator and got already picks up the phone and
(24:31):
he just again screams wow.
Speaker 2 (24:35):
So Mario's got a suite at the Beverly Hills Hotel
in office and an assistant who can't type. What could
possibly go wrong?
Speaker 1 (24:43):
Well, he's supposed to be writing the screamplay, but he's
totally bewildered. He has no idea what to do, so
Already tells him to get every plot point typed out
on an index card.
Speaker 2 (24:55):
But Janet can't type.
Speaker 1 (24:56):
No, she cannot, but the two of them figure away
around that.
Speaker 4 (25:01):
So Mario came into my office and he saw me
struggling as much as he was struggling in his office,
and he said, what are we doing? You're more valuable
on the tennis court than you are at that typewriter,
and I don't want to be sitting here on this
beautiful day. So let's find a typing service and we
can have them type the book on three by five
(25:24):
cards and we can go off and play tennis, of
which we did.
Speaker 1 (25:29):
They outsourced it, yes, and Janet wanted to show the
completed notes to Already on Monday, but Mario taught us
something about the fine art of procrastination.
Speaker 4 (25:40):
We went to the studio and I said, I'm going
to take this box of three by five cards down
to al and he said, don't be a dope, Ganet.
We can run this thing out. Nobody could type the
book over the weekend on three by five cards you
out to hand in just a little bit each day.
(26:01):
And I went, oh, my gosh, Mario, thanks for guiding me.
Speaker 2 (26:04):
I just never would have.
Speaker 4 (26:06):
Thought of that.
Speaker 2 (26:07):
So he's found a way to put off writing the script.
What's he doing in the meantime, Well, he's having a
great time.
Speaker 1 (26:13):
He and Jatted are playing tennis. He's going to restaurants,
and of course the social invitation start rolling in.
Speaker 4 (26:19):
The word got out that Mario was in Los Angeles,
and the phone started ringing. There were lunch invitations, dinner invitations.
He was very shy, and he liked me being there.
And I enjoyed being there because the people were fascinating
and it was fun.
Speaker 2 (26:40):
And a big feature of his time in Hollywood is
that Puzzo gets to meet some of his idols.
Speaker 1 (26:45):
Yes, and there's a story that I just love about.
One day in the Beverly Hills Hotel, his phone rings
with yet another social invitation.
Speaker 4 (26:54):
I picked up the phone and this incredible voice said,
there's Mario Puzo there. I said, who's calling? And he
said Orson Wells and I said, well, moment please. I
went the other room and I said, Mario, somebody by
the name of Orson Wells. And he goes Orson Wells
(27:16):
and I said yes, And he went and picked up
the phone and he said hello, and he started talking
with him and he said, oh, my goodness, I love
to Yes, absolutely, of course, and then he hung the
phone up and he turned to me and he goes, Janet,
that was Orson Wells, one of the most talented people ever.
(27:39):
And he's taken a bungalow at the hotel and he's
invited us to come over. And so we get to
this beautiful bungalow and the door opens and this very
large man, Alita Cigar, welcomes us and we sat down
and Mario and Orson well start to talking and it
(28:01):
was the most hypnotizing, brilliant, clever, creative, intelligent conversation I
had ever heard, and still maybe have ever heard.
Speaker 2 (28:16):
So Puso's an unlikely sensation. When he hits the ground
in Hollywood. He's sort of a celebrity, at least by
the standards of a popular writer.
Speaker 1 (28:24):
He was, you know, he's going to the studio, he's
going to dinner in lunch with people he had never
met before. And of course he's always going to Vegas
to indulge in his passion for gambling.
Speaker 2 (28:36):
And Janet Snow was sort of his chaperone this whole time.
Speaker 1 (28:39):
Yes, And in Janet, he had someone who knew the town,
who lived there. She grew up there, and so she
knew Los Angeles. She was kind of the perfect assistant
for him.
Speaker 2 (28:48):
Do you think I already hired Janet because he got
the sense that he wasn't going to be able to
make good on his promise to Puso's wife.
Speaker 1 (28:56):
I don't know about that. But there's a funny story
Alreaddy tells. You know, he's trying to watch Puso's weight,
and he's going to breakfast in lunch with him, he says,
and he's eating, you know, boiled pears and poached eggs,
and they're both having grapefruit and trying to lose weight.
And while Ruddy, who's already then keeps losing weight, Mario
(29:16):
kept gaining weight. And one night he goes into this
Los Angeles pizza parlor that he went to all the time,
and the owner of the place says man that Mario
Puso's a great guy, and Ruddy says, what, how do
you know Mario Puso? And he goes, well, I bring
him a pizza every night at the Beverly Hills Hotel.
Speaker 2 (29:37):
So he was ordering on the sly. It's incredible. So
at this point, the script that Puso is working on
closely follows the Godfather book right exactly.
Speaker 1 (29:49):
You can see early drafts of it in the archives
at Dartmouth University.
Speaker 2 (29:54):
Do you think that the producers of the Godfather had
any sense that Mario wasn't going to be the man
to deliver the final screenplay of The Godfather?
Speaker 1 (30:03):
Well, I think probably so. Although early drafts of his
screenplay were pretty well received by Peter Bart, he gave
a lot of notes which still exists. He said he
was off to a good start. You know, he knew
the material like nobody else did. He had written The
Godfather the novel, so he knew the story best. But
he needed someone with some experience writing screenplays to help him,
(30:25):
and they were looking for a director throughout this period.
They just couldn't find anyone who wanted to do the movie,
which was crazy enough in itself.
Speaker 2 (30:34):
So as he's approaching a completed first draft of his script,
what does Puso do?
Speaker 1 (30:39):
So Puso is unleashed. You know, he's able to embark
upon what he calls his Hollywood adventures, most notably a
famous run in with Frank Sinatra at Chasin's.
Speaker 2 (30:52):
This is the real life Johnny Fontaine, the womanizing singer
who appeals to the Godfather for help at the beginning
of the film.
Speaker 1 (31:00):
And you know, Frank Sinatra was reportedly unhappy with the
depiction of Johnny Fontaine, which is much more elaborate in
the book than it turns out to be in the film.
Speaker 2 (31:11):
And in nineteen sixty nine, Sinatra had just come out
with My Way, so he's about as big as an
artist can get at this point.
Speaker 1 (31:17):
Well, Frank Sinatra was a superstar, probably the greatest Italian
American singer of all time.
Speaker 2 (31:24):
So Mario Puzzo knew who Frank Sinatra was and probably
modeled the character of Johnny Fontaine on him.
Speaker 1 (31:31):
Well, not only knew who he was, he adored him,
He idolized him. He said, when he was growing up
in Hell's kitchen, there were two pictures on the wall
one of John F. Kennedy and the other of Frank Sinatra.
He was iconic in Mario's eyes.
Speaker 2 (31:47):
And Sinatra was an Italian American success story. He was
from Hoboken, New Jersey, which is not far away from
where Mario Puzo grew up in Hell's Kitchen, and he
represented that Italian American way of life.
Speaker 1 (32:01):
Yeah, he was a huge success story. I mean, Mario
surely looked up to him as a supreme entertainer and
also as a success story of a young man who
could come out of Hoboken and capture the hearts and
minds of the world with his talent. You know. In
many ways their stories were similar, except that Mario was
kind of the flip side of Frank Sinatra. He wasn't
(32:23):
the handsome movie star suave singer, but his talent was
that he could write, you know. And so Mario Puzo
and Frank Sinatra had a lot in common and then
a lot different as well.
Speaker 2 (32:35):
So this is all a roundabout way of saying that
when Puzo spotted Sinatra across the room and chasin's that
faithful night, he was excited and knew.
Speaker 1 (32:45):
Who he was right exactly, He knew who he was.
He said in his book The Godfather Chronicles that he
saw Frank Sinatra and John Wayne and Chasin's looking like
two gods.
Speaker 3 (32:56):
You know.
Speaker 1 (32:56):
They were tanned and thin and fit, and they were
just movie stars. They were stars.
Speaker 2 (33:03):
And Janet Snow was actually there, so she has her
account of what happened that evening.
Speaker 1 (33:07):
Yes, and this is one of those stories that has
a few versions, but Janet was there, and she says
that she drove them to Chasin's. They walked in and
people started flooding Mario Puzo for autographs, and across the
room she spot Sinatra, and she already knows that Sinatra
is unhappy with Mario's depiction of Johnny Fontaine in the book.
(33:28):
So the two sit down for dinner, and here's how
Janet says it happened.
Speaker 4 (33:33):
I excuse myself and go to the lady's room. And
I came back and Mario was gone, and I sat down.
I thought, oh, maybe he went to the men's room.
So I'm just sitting there, and then it occurs to me,
I look over at Sinatra's table, and oh, my god,
Mario's standing at Sinatra's table, and so I ran over
(33:57):
and I looked at Mario and his face was ushen,
and Sinatra was looking down at the table, at his
plate and speaking in Italian, and he was very unhappy,
and I couldn't understand what he was saying, and I
just knew I had to get Mario out of there
(34:20):
right then.
Speaker 2 (34:22):
So what did Sinatra actually say to Puso.
Speaker 1 (34:25):
Well, it's kind of a mystery, but according to Mario,
he approached Sinatra to meet him just as a fan,
and Sinatra was very adamant that he did not want
to meet Mario Puzso. So Puso starts apologizing for approaching him. Well,
Sinatra takes that as an apology for the Johnny Fontaine
character in the book, and Sinatra asked him, who told
(34:48):
you to put that in your book? Your publisher? And
Puzzo sets the record straight, No one tells him what
to put in his books. He said he was apologizing
for trying to meet Sinatra and nothing else, which is
when Sinatra started yelling at him.
Speaker 2 (35:03):
Do you think Mario intended Johnny Fontaine as this sort
of admiring portrait of Sinatra, You.
Speaker 1 (35:09):
Know, I think so. But at the same time, he
didn't hold back. When you read the parts about Johnny
Fontayne in the novel, I could see it why Frank
Sinatra might not have been happy with it. And even
in the movie, you know, Johnny Fontayne, he's slapped by
the Godfather when he starts crying about his career. So
there's good and bad about Johnny Fontaine in the movie.
(35:32):
I mean, obviously they make it clear that he's a
huge star, the way he comes into the wedding scene
and Connie yos Johnny Johnny, and the mother says, Johnny
sing us a song, and you know, it's just so romantic.
It seems like it would be like that if Frank
Sinatra walked into a wedding like Johnny Fontainne did.
Speaker 2 (35:51):
But Puso certainly didn't mean anything bad to Sinatra by it.
Speaker 1 (35:55):
I don't think so. He's a writer. He didn't call
him Frank Sinatra. He called to Johnny Fontayne, which I
love the name, don't you. It's just the perfect name.
If you read the novel, there's a lot about him
that I could see Frank Sinatra would not have liked,
especially if he built like it was being modeled on him.
Speaker 2 (36:13):
But if you look at the movie it was worth
including those Johnny Fontaine sections because they are really some
of the most iconic ones in the film.
Speaker 3 (36:21):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (36:21):
Well, Johnny Fontaine's the reason for the whole horses head seen,
you know, because Jack Waltz wouldn't give him the role
in that war picture he was making. You know, no
way Johnny Fontaine gets that part in the movie. So
without Johnny Fontayne, you wouldn't have had those extraordinary scenes
of the horse's head and then all of a sudden
(36:42):
they cut to the Godfather's office and the flowers from Johnny,
you know, thanking the Godfather for getting him the part
in that movie. I mean, without Johnny Fontaine, you'd be
missing a lot.
Speaker 2 (36:54):
Do you think this was a wake up call for
Pozzo and sort of his first exposure to Holly would ego.
Speaker 4 (37:01):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (37:01):
I think he probably felt like, we're not in Kansas anymore,
you know. But at the same time, he wasn't by
any means innocent. I think he knew what he was
getting into, and he was a very smart man. He
knew the town was different than where he had grown up.
But he grew up in New York. Let's face it,
he grew up in Hell's kitchen. He was used to
(37:23):
all sorts of people, so he was not naive in anyway.
Speaker 2 (37:29):
Well, Mark, let's talk about how Copla came into the picture.
At this point, there's a draft of the script, but
there's no director attached to do anything with it.
Speaker 1 (37:38):
Yes, So Paramount was looking for a bankable director to
direct The Godfather. It was going to be a big
release and they wanted an equally big name in charge.
They went out to a bunch of directors like Sam
Peckinpaul and Auto Primenger, but they either weren't right or
they didn't want to be involved. It was considered glorifying
the mafia, and most bankable director weren't interested in that.
(38:02):
And then one day, on the drive to work together,
Peter Bart and Robert Evans got to talking and they
hit upon the idea that what was missing in most
of the gangster films of those days, including The Brotherhood
starring Kirk Douglas and Scarface starring Jimmy Cagney, they didn't
feature Italian Americans in leading roles, and so that was
(38:22):
a difference. And so Evans says, he wants to create
a movie that is so authentically Italian American that you
can smell the spaghetti, and nothing could be more authentic
than having an Italian American director, and only one name
came to mind, Francis Ford Coppola. Leave the Gun, Take
(38:52):
the Canoli as a production of Airmail and iHeartMedia.
Speaker 2 (38:56):
The podcast is based on the book of the same name,
written by her very own Mark Seal.
Speaker 1 (39:01):
Our producer is Tina Mullin.
Speaker 2 (39:03):
Research assistance by Jack Sullivan.
Speaker 1 (39:06):
Jonathan Dressler was our development producer.
Speaker 2 (39:09):
Our music supervisor is Randall Poster. Our executive producers are
Meet Nathan King, Mark Siel, Doan Fagan and Graydon.
Speaker 1 (39:18):
Carter Special Banks to Bridget Arseno and everyone at c
DM Studios.
Speaker 2 (39:24):
A comprehensive list of sources and acknowledgments can be found
in Mark Sieal's book, Leave the Gun, Take the Canolli,
published by Gallery Books, an imprint of Simon and Schuster.
Hosts And Creators
Mark Seal
Nathan King
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