November 25, 2025 • 48 mins
First, Emily and Shane are providing the latest updates on the death of 18-year-old Anna Kepner, who was killed on a Carnival Cruise this month.
Then, they’re interviewing Eva LaRue and her daughter, Kaya. Eva’s docuseries “My Nightmare Stalker: The Eva LaRue Story” is streaming on Paramount+ and dives into the horrific stalker that tormented Eva and Kaya’s lives for 12 years.
They’re diving into genetic genealogy’s breakthrough role in this case, what Eva’s message is to every woman out there, and how she and Kaya feel now that their stalker is walking free.
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
Hi, guys, Welcome to a new episode of Legally Brunette.
I will be your host Emily Simpson with Shane Okay,
before we get into the Eva LaRue story, we're just
going to do some updates on the Anna Kepner situation,
which we talked about on a previous podcast. When we
first brought up this case, obviously there's not a lot
of information out there. This is the eighteen year old
(00:22):
cheerleader that was found dead recently on the carnival cruise
called Horizon. Her body was found stuffed underneath the bed
in her cabin, covered in US Yes, covered in life
best and she was wrapped in a sheet. Now there's
some more information that has come out, so we're gonna
we're gonna update you guys on that. So Anna Kupner
had an ex boyfriend who has come out and told
(00:42):
reporters that after Anna's memorials. This was after her memorial service.
He said that there was one time when he was
on a FaceTime with her. This I remember him saying.
It was like three o'clock in the morning and she
was lying down and her stepbrother tried to jump on
top of her or sit on top of her. Something
like that, and he actually saw this on the face time.
Speaker 2 (01:00):
Like horse playing.
Speaker 1 (01:01):
You know, I don't know, he didn't give like a context.
Speaker 2 (01:03):
I just think that she doesn't seem like normal will
be here.
Speaker 1 (01:06):
Yeah, I think he just found it just really inappropriate
and strange.
Speaker 3 (01:10):
He said.
Speaker 1 (01:11):
He reported the encounter to Anna's parents and said she
had complained about being uncomfortable around her stepbrother before, but
the parents didn't believe his claims. Obviously, if he's going
to the dad and the mom, the mom or the
step mom is the biological mom of the stepbrother, and
then Anna has a.
Speaker 2 (01:29):
Dadtive we it's father daughter and mother's son right getting married.
Speaker 3 (01:33):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (01:34):
The ex boyfriend went on to describe Anna as his
first love and said he would have been on the
cruise with the Keptner family earlier this month if they
hadn't broken up. He claims that she was scared of him,
and the ex boyfriend's father, Stephen Weston, told Inside Editions
separately it was because he always carried around a big knife. Now,
I think this kid. What I've read this hasn't been
(01:55):
confirmed by the FBI because they haven't really released any information,
but from what I have read multiple times, this stepbrother
is sixteen years old, So if this is true, if
he's carrying around a big knife, I don't know if
as a parent that would be something that I would
be okay, like.
Speaker 2 (02:12):
That was his regular daily I don't know.
Speaker 1 (02:15):
I mean animal Carrie snacks around in her pocket, but
I mean I would be concerned if I had a
child that was a young teenager that was carrying around
real weapons. Investigators have preliminarily ruled that the teen died
as a result of asphyxiation from a bar hold, And
I guess a bar hold is when someone holds your
arm across.
Speaker 2 (02:36):
Your neck or it could be an object or an object, yeah,
as opposed to strangulation, I think, which is probably more
of the hands around the neck or rope.
Speaker 1 (02:45):
Anna Kepner's body showed no signs of sexual assault, nor
were drugs or alcohol found in her system, though the
full autopsy and toxicology reports have not yet been made available.
But I guess there has been some type of statement
that she died of axiation and that there were no
drugs or alcohol found in her system. Anna's birth mother,
(03:06):
Heather Right, told news outlets that she learned of her
daughter's death through an online search. She wasn't contact. I'm
not sure. I feel like that's probably in a strange relationship.
Like I don't know if Anna actually has a lot
of contact with her biological mother.
Speaker 2 (03:19):
I don't know. I didn't see much that showed there was.
Speaker 1 (03:22):
And I believe there's been two stepmothers, So I think
the dad was married previously to a different stepmother, and
then now he's just been recently married again in twenty
twenty four to this recent stepmother. I guess her name
is Sean Tell.
Speaker 2 (03:36):
We'll see how long this one lasts.
Speaker 1 (03:37):
Okay, So Anna's birth mother said that she learned about
her daughter's death or an online search. I guess she
had heard about it or someone.
Speaker 2 (03:44):
Yeah, but she should have heard it from the father first.
Speaker 1 (03:47):
She should have, but I don't think that he reached out.
Speaker 2 (03:50):
My point is he obviously didn't. He allowed enough time
had passed, as she found it out through other means
that it didn't come from the other parent, So he
obviously doesn't have much communication with her.
Speaker 1 (04:03):
Similarly, Anna's step grandfather, whose name is Christopher Donahue, and
if you remember the last name Donahue, that is when
we talked about on this previous podcast. There was someone
named Martin Donahue who posted on Twitter, and he posted
very early on saying that it was the stepbrother and
that the family's not talking about it and he wanted
(04:25):
to get that information out there. He gave details about
how her body was found, and his last name was Donahue.
And this step grandfather named Christopher Donahue said, I don't
know why Anna was staying in a room with her stepbrother.
The swirl of public claims around Anna's death has revived
long simmering disputes. In March thirty first, at twenty twenty three,
a divorce petition filed in Brevard County, Anna's former stepmother,
(04:49):
Tabitha Kapner that's the other stepmom previous to this one,
alleges that Christopher Kaepner, the father, had a history of
physical and mental abuse toward the minor children and toward
the petitioner, and she sought sole parental responsibility for the
children she shared with him and supervised time sharing. She
was married to Christopher Kaepner after he split with Anna's
mother and before he married his third wife, Sean Tell.
(05:12):
So I was right, there were the two step mothers,
and so I feel like the biological mother didn't have
a lot to do with Anna as she was growing up.
It looks like the dad's had full custody. He's been
married a couple of times, and it looks like there's
some right.
Speaker 2 (05:24):
And clearly they went on a trip together her as
an eighteen year old, so she didn't it's not like
you know, she was dragged along.
Speaker 1 (05:30):
Well, let me tell you about So I just read
a recent article that just came out today. So the
grandfather and the grandmother who were on this cruise did
an interview. So I finally figured out we talked about previously.
We weren't sure how the rooms were divided up, and
I wasn't sure of what family members.
Speaker 2 (05:47):
Actually, that's right. Did we find out?
Speaker 1 (05:48):
Yes, So there were nine people total in this family
that were on the cruise.
Speaker 2 (05:54):
No kidding, So do we know you don't have deliver
them all. But we got father, daughter, and step son.
Speaker 1 (06:01):
Okay, So let me break it down. This is how
the rooms were. So there are two younger girls who
stayed with the parents. So that's Chris Kepner and his wife, Chantel.
So that's four people in one of the state rooms. Okay,
So then the second state room had three teenagers. That
was Anna Keepner, that was the stepbrother who's allegedly sixteen,
(06:22):
and then it was her biological brother. So there's three
teenagers in that stateroom. And then the third stateroom on
this cruise was the grandparents, Jeffrey and Barbara Kepner.
Speaker 2 (06:33):
Okay, so we know that she was rooming with thee
the stepbrother. That's that the rumors are swirling. Yeah, that
he's a person of interest or a suspect, right.
Speaker 1 (06:42):
And that also she was fearful of him, and that
he carried around a knife and apparently he'd been would.
Speaker 2 (06:48):
And appropriately in the same room. Okay, I don't know.
Speaker 1 (06:51):
Here's the thing, and you're you're a parent, you have
you have children eight from age twenty four to ten.
I understand that they're considered siblings, but when you have
step siblings that aren't related by blood and have just
recently met because she just married the dad a year
ago in twenty twenty four, so you've got a sixteen
year old boy and an eighteen year old girl.
Speaker 2 (07:13):
Yeah, which is much different than our arrangement because these
are they're close in age and they're older.
Speaker 1 (07:18):
Right, So that's my point.
Speaker 2 (07:19):
You have a sixteen year old always ad sex.
Speaker 1 (07:21):
Right, and an eighteen year old girl staying in a
small stateroom on a cruise together who.
Speaker 2 (07:28):
Is not naturally that's not, you know, necessarily a recipe
for murder.
Speaker 1 (07:33):
Though it's not a recipe for murder. But I'm just saying,
as a parent, I would find that inappropriate and I
would never let that happen.
Speaker 2 (07:38):
I just wanted to make certain that it doesn't mean
like they're no to be homicide, but it does mean
it could be uncomfortable, it could be awkward. It may
not be the type of relationship that they're comfortable with
and they're respecting each other, you know. I mean even
sometimes brothers and sisters don't want to stay in the
same room.
Speaker 1 (07:54):
No, I agree, I'm not say I'm just saying when
it's step it's even a little more.
Speaker 2 (07:59):
Specially, I don't know how long have they been step siblings.
Speaker 1 (08:01):
Only a year I said they were married. They were
married with twenty twenty four, So I'm.
Speaker 2 (08:05):
Saying a question. But okay, right, that fills in some
gaps because last time we were talking, were saying they
all showed up to breakfast except for her. They were wondering, like,
how did they find out she was missing? Like did
they just overhear it or were they calling for her?
What they do when she didn't show up? And we
were wondering who was in the room with her? Now
we know at least they stayed. She stayed with her
(08:25):
brother and stepbrother, right, so what the brothers get up,
go to breakfast, and then they're like, we don't know
where this is.
Speaker 1 (08:32):
The question is when this occurred, where was the biological
brother because I'm assuming he was not in the room
at the time.
Speaker 2 (08:40):
Yeah, well, we don't know. I don't know, but that's
very plausible, right, And then the.
Speaker 1 (08:45):
Question is where did he sleep? Did he come back
to the room and she wasn't there and he didn't
think that was strange? I don't know. I have so
many questions about what happened. All we know is at
the end of the day, that she's not alive, that
the stepbrothers suspect that he did leep in the bed
that night, that I've read that allegedly that he woke up,
that he you know, whatever happened happened.
Speaker 2 (09:04):
Also of them are on you know, the list of
to be interviewed even if it's the brother, Well, right,
brother doesn't automatically rule out homicide, right, but the brother
also maybe in a party, but he might know a lot.
Speaker 1 (09:18):
I'm sure. Right now the FBI is pulling all the
surveillance videos so they know who went in and out
and what time, and then they're pulling all the key
card data so they know who went in and out
of that room. And also the grandmother in this interview
that I just read, claims that the step brother told
her that he doesn't remember what happened in the room
that night, and that he was hospitalized right after this
(09:42):
cruise into some type of mental health treatment, and that
he's been released.
Speaker 2 (09:46):
But he's trying to claim that he had.
Speaker 1 (09:48):
Some psychotic break or something I.
Speaker 2 (09:51):
Don't right, blacked out and doesn't have any memory and
can't be held accountable and therefore you should be released.
Speaker 1 (09:56):
Well, that's a lot of free meditation. I don't know.
I don't, I don't know, but I mean.
Speaker 2 (10:00):
That it's possibly trying to go in that direction.
Speaker 1 (10:02):
Possibly, but obviously we need more information on what happened
that night.
Speaker 2 (10:06):
Okay, But may I say something, So even if that
were the case, even if he had a crystal ball
that could say, yeah, he blacked out, he had no
he had an episode, like he had no bad intentions whatever,
You still got to put him in prison. Yeah, because
that could happen again. Absolutely, So it's like, okay, fine,
we're not going to put you in prison. As it's
not always as a matter of punishment. Sometimes it's a
(10:28):
matter of keeping with anxiety.
Speaker 1 (10:29):
Yeah, exactly. The grandmother also claimed in the article there
was some more details about that evening. She said that
Anna did leave dinner early that night because she said
her braces were bothering her. She might have gotten them tightened.
You know how when you get your braces tightened, it
really bothers you and hurts. Yea, So she left dinner
early that night because her braces were bothering her. But
she said then she she went and changed and reappeared
(10:53):
later at the casino and gambled a little bit like
twenty dollars with her grandmother and grandfather. Then she told
her grandma, I don't feel well. I'm going to go
back to the room. And then the grandmother claims that
was the last time that she saw her, and then
the next morning they are all at breakfast I'm not
sure if they're looking for her or what. Those details
have not come to show up for breakfast and show
(11:13):
up right. And then the grandfather heard a medical alert.
I assume as soon as the housekeeper walked in and
found that body, that there was some type of medical.
Speaker 2 (11:20):
Alert that went automatic, notice right and alert right.
Speaker 1 (11:24):
And then the room number was I guess the room
number was said over the speaker. The grandfather recognized the
room number, knowing it was one of their state rooms.
He goes to the room, he sees her. He claims
she had bruises on her neck. They knew that she
was dead just upon walking in and seeing the body.
I guess people were removed from the room.
Speaker 2 (11:41):
I hoped he never know what that's like.
Speaker 1 (11:42):
All right. So that's all the information we have so far,
and Anna Keepner, obviously we will keep following the case
and keep updating you guys on it as it goes along.
We're going to take a little break now, but when
we come back, we will be interviewing Eva LaRue and
her daughter Kaya. We're excited today. We're going to have
(12:06):
a guest on here in just a few minutes. Her
name is Eva LaRue. If you were a fan of
CSI Miami. She was an actress on that for many years.
So Eva LaRue has a new two part series out
on Paramount Plus. It is called My Nightmare Stalker. So
for more than a decade, Eva LaRue endured a terrifying
stalking campaign carried out by an anonymous man who signed
(12:30):
his threats as Freddy Krueger. This started back in two
thousand and seven and continued all the way until twenty nineteen.
The CSA Miami and she was also on All My Children.
Actress received dozens of graphic threatening letters aimed at both
her and her young daughter. LaRue's experience is explored in
(12:50):
this two part Paramount Plus documentary My Nightmare Stalker, The
Ava LaRue Story, which debuted back on November thirteenth, which
Shane and I have both watched now. The harassment began
when Eva and her daughter Kaya started receiving disturbing letters
filled with violent threats from a sender who called himself
Freddy Krueger. And the letters are so graphic, yeah, I
(13:14):
mean horrific. After years of harassment, the investigation identified the
stalker as James David Rogers. He was an Ohio man
just a little shout out to my home state, people
of Ohio.
Speaker 2 (13:27):
My people there there are people never disappointing the true
crime and.
Speaker 1 (13:30):
You know what, also talking about Ohio. I don't know
if any of you out there are a big fan
of forensic files like I am. But if you watch
forensic files religiously like I do, I don't know why,
but many of the episodes I take place in Ohio.
Speaker 2 (13:47):
I think it's probably because they have better resources and
access to get the yeah, the interviews and the all
the investigation journals and whatever.
Speaker 1 (13:57):
Right, So anyway, another shout out to Ohio. According to
federal authorities, he sent a total of thirty seven letters
between two thousand and seven and twenty fifteen, many of
them describing horrific fantasies involving Eva and also her daughter.
His behavior escalated in twenty nineteen when he began calling
(14:17):
Kaya's high school, leaving explicit voicemails of what he was
going to do to her.
Speaker 2 (14:22):
And none of these messages, whether it be by voicemail
or letter, were like I love you or anything saying
like I want you. It was just violent.
Speaker 1 (14:34):
So he did start out, I believe, in the beginning
with some letters that were adoration of love and like
I'm obsessed with you and I'm in love with you
and you know, and then it went I mean, then
it just went psychotic.
Speaker 2 (14:47):
So by no, I was like, never mind, I want
to dismemory you, you know.
Speaker 1 (14:51):
And it makes me think, was there some is that
what happens when someone doesn't get a letter back? I mean,
when he wrote the initial letters, was it because he
was expecting some type of adoration back, like she was
going to write him back and be like I love
you too. Random man in Ohio, Freddy Krueger. And then
when that didn't happen, that's when he goes off the
deep end. And then it goes from love and I
(15:12):
want to marry you and be with you too, now
I'm going to dismember you, and.
Speaker 2 (15:15):
I don't know. I don't know.
Speaker 1 (15:17):
But so by using the DNA discovered from the envelopes
and in putting that into genetic genealogy databases, the FBI
connected Rogers to the threats. This led investigators to Ohio,
where they confirmed the match using DNA from a discarded
soda straw. Rogers was arrested in late twenty nineteen and
later pleaded guilty to multiple charges of stalking and sending
(15:40):
threatening communications. He received a forty month federal sentence and
apologized in court, while Eva LaRue told him she forgave him,
but she would never forget because she would always carry
the fear with her for life. He was released in
twenty twenty.
Speaker 2 (15:54):
Four, two years Yeah.
Speaker 1 (15:57):
Yeah, I mean, I guess because he never followed through
with any type of overt act, I guess that would
make it more than just the threatening part of it.
Speaker 2 (16:11):
Yeah. He never Yeah, he never committed a violent act,
just words. So I guess that's even though it could
be you know, equally as frightening.
Speaker 1 (16:20):
Right because you don't. You don't.
Speaker 2 (16:22):
Yeah, maybe even more frightening because you don't. Yeah, it's
a mystery right when it's going to be carried out
if it will.
Speaker 1 (16:28):
Can you imagine though, the torment we're going to get
into this because she's going to come on and we're
going to ask her. But that many years of living
with that kind of fear, and to have a daughter
and to live every single days thinking is he outside,
is he in my car? Is following my car?
Speaker 2 (16:44):
Is he in my and not knowing what he looked
like so you don't even know is it that person?
Is it that person?
Speaker 3 (16:48):
Right?
Speaker 1 (16:49):
And coming home at night and coming into your house
like putting the key and then coming in and thinking
is there someone in my home? Did he get in?
Speaker 2 (16:56):
Because I come home, I hear the cat and it
worries me, right, I get cat worried. But I don't
know it's the cat at first.
Speaker 1 (17:03):
We have three dogs and the cat scared you when
you come home.
Speaker 2 (17:06):
Yeah, because the dogs are obviously dogs. Cats are like
under the table and the tablecloth.
Speaker 1 (17:11):
Now we know Shane's scared of cat.
Speaker 2 (17:13):
No, until when I don't know what's a cat? Okay,
I don't know what's a cat?
Speaker 1 (17:18):
Hi Eva, how are you? Thanks for coming on today. Great,
nice to meet you as well. First of all, I'd
have to say I'm a big fan of the CSI
shows and CSI Miamis to watch it back in the day.
Speaker 3 (17:30):
So it's just exciting yours.
Speaker 1 (17:33):
Oh, thank you, oh, thank you so much. And my
husband Shane, well, thank you, well, thank you so much
for coming on legally Brunette and discussing your story. As
Shane and I watched the two part series last night
just to prepare and kind of understand what you went through,
but I just want to start. Let's just start at
(17:53):
the beginning. Now, when you first started receiving, like the
first letter, was it something that you took seriously or
was that kind of par for the course with who
you are. You're an actress, you're on TV, you've been
on soap operas, obviously you're in the public eye.
Speaker 3 (18:07):
We from the very first letter, we took it seriously.
It was like a stock my body because I'd never
got you know, for all the years that I've done
soap operas and and all the years that you know,
and at that point, I'd only been on CSI for
two years CSI Miami, and I had never gotten any
(18:28):
kind I mean you obviously, you know get the I
don't like your character, you know, like that kind of
run of the mill, I don't like your you know,
like who you're being or whatever. But I had never
gotten that kind of crazy, uh.
Speaker 4 (18:46):
But but violent and hateful and graphic, graphic and massive
kiss like all of an heinous, depraved, And I'd never
gotten anything like that ever before.
Speaker 3 (18:59):
So from the very first letter, I took it seriously.
And then the letter started coming one right after the
next we got one the next day, We got one
the next day. You know, he would go on these
ram pages where we would get like eight letters and
then we wouldn't get any for a month or a month,
and then he'd go on a rampage again. And then
sometimes it would be a couple of months before we
(19:20):
get them. Sometimes it would be six months, and we
would think, oh, maybe he got off you know us, and.
Speaker 1 (19:28):
He moved on.
Speaker 3 (19:29):
Yeah, you don't hope he moves on to somebody else,
but that he like got a life or something, or
maybe like maybe you.
Speaker 1 (19:33):
Got a girlfriend or something. Maybe exactly you found some
happiness that so he's not spending his time.
Speaker 3 (19:40):
You know, maybe you know anything, right, And then all
of a sudden they'd start coming out of the blue again.
So I really think, I mean, it really boils down
to that that insanity, that mental health issue, that the
obsessive you know where where people they talk about people
get into their addiction. Like when you see that blank
whether it's alcoho or drug addiction or whatever, you see
(20:02):
that blankness in their face because they're in their addiction
in that moment, there's no breaking them out of that
obsession with.
Speaker 1 (20:10):
That thing, right, exactly. I Hi, Kaya, I apologize. Kaya's
on here too, your daughter.
Speaker 5 (20:16):
How much are you now, Kaya, I'm twenty three.
Speaker 1 (20:19):
Oh twenty three. That sounds so young, doesn't it. It
sounds so yung so Kaya. In the series, you talk
about how your mom protected you for the majority of it. Correct,
you didn't really know what was going on and what
she was dealing with emotionally, and so it wasn't really
until when he contacted the high school where you were at.
Is that when you kind of became aware of how
serious it was and what was going on.
Speaker 5 (20:42):
Not exactly, I would say, my mom kept the details
from me growing up, Okay, me knowing exactly what he
was saying in the letters. Obviously I know what they
are now, But it was one once I started becoming
a teenager, you know, and I was going out with
friends the mall across the stream from my high school,
and even you know, getting into the later years of
middle school, that I knew how serious it was. And
(21:05):
really I feel like there was always an energy of,
you know, how dangerous he was, that we needed to
be cautious. So even though she wasn't detailing the you
know what the letters were saying, there was always an
energy around it that it was like I am in
danger constantly when I'm out, even in the house, you know,
there is someone lurking and trying to find us. So
(21:27):
but once he called the high school, it just kind
of crossed a whole other level where it was he
now had access to me, where some place that I
would be every day for eight hours a day, and
where my friends were, where my teachers were, you know,
and where I could be around and I had, you know,
cheer practice. So it just kind of crossed a whole
(21:48):
new line for me that I really didn't feel safe,
and he was also pretending to be my dad, and
you know that had all this information about me that
I now couldn't protect myself and neither can cheat.
Speaker 2 (22:01):
Do we know how he located your school?
Speaker 5 (22:04):
I think through Instagram probably there was a photo where,
you know, I think it was my my senior night
and my dad and my mom had obviously my mom
was there, but my dad had come out too, and
there's a photo with me and them, and I have
this big nd on my you know, cheer uniform, and
it just sucks because that was just a celebratory day,
(22:26):
you know, my senior night of high.
Speaker 1 (22:28):
School and you just want to post it and celebrate
the evening.
Speaker 5 (22:32):
And both your there on her Instagram and it's just
you know, you've.
Speaker 3 (22:37):
It's one of those ship ups when you're just not
thinking about you know, you're just like living your life
sor year.
Speaker 5 (22:44):
Yeah, and there's only two Notre Dames, so you know,
there's Notre Dame Academy or Notre Dame High School and
it's just like, you know, he right.
Speaker 1 (22:53):
He you know he might have called the other one too,
who knows, you know, until he made a connection, you
know that that that he was your dad. And then
they they were asking you, right, didn't they come to you?
Then they were like, your dad's here to get you
or he's coming to get you or something like that.
Speaker 5 (23:08):
They called me into the front office and it's funny
because I love my dad and he's very much a
part of my life.
Speaker 1 (23:14):
But he lived in Palm Desert, so he was two
hours away.
Speaker 5 (23:17):
He wasn't the he wasn't the first collar or the
second color on the sheet list. So they called it
and were like, hey, do you want to text your
dad separate because like he's he's here or he's saying
that you know he's gonna come pick you up, and
it is kind of what led into me texting my mom,
being like, there's no way he would have called my school.
He would have called my mom first, or my mom's
assistant or you know. So that kind of was the
(23:40):
whole spiral of like this is so at a character.
And then he had finally texted me back saying no,
I didn't. It was like a light went off, like
I just knew and I hadn't thought about him. He
wasn't always at the forefront of my mind.
Speaker 3 (23:54):
You know, you can't live.
Speaker 5 (23:56):
In fear constantly, and so it was just kind of
like this weird sub unders thought. It was like it's him,
Like just alarm.
Speaker 3 (24:02):
Bells went off.
Speaker 1 (24:04):
Now Eva. I mean, I'm a mother too, And so
when all this is going on and you have a daughter,
what was it like on a daily basis, like just
to try to protect her because you know, you want
to give her freedom, you want to go out with
her friends, you want her to go to cheerleading practice,
you want her to be a normal teen, but you
also aren't exactly normal because of the position that you're in.
So what was it that you had to do on
a daily basis to make sure that she was safe
(24:26):
or that you felt like she was safe.
Speaker 3 (24:28):
That was the worst part of it, because, like you said,
as moms, as parents, it's our that's our only job, right,
your only job is to is to keep your kids
safe and to make sure they make it through adulthood
and all of the things. And I felt at a
complete loss at times because you know, we ended up
having to move twice when he ended up finding our address.
(24:50):
We I did everything I could, you know, we were
you know, a lot of people have said to me,
well you know why, you know, didn't you have security
or didn't you have Well, you know, some of the
biggest stars on the planet have gazillions of dollars for security.
Look at Brad Pitt and somebody ended up in his
actual bed, got you know, Sandra Bullock and somebody she's
(25:12):
crouched in her in her closet while somebody was in
her rummaging through her kitchen. You know these it doesn't
matter the amount of security. And of course I didn't
have that kind of budget. I had whatever within my
budget to secure myself with. But but it doesn't seem
that that really matters in the end. So you're constantly
(25:34):
scared to death, not just for yourself, but for your child,
because you know, when they get to be a teenager,
they're out doing stuff they probably shouldn't be doing anyway,
and they're outside of your realm of constant surveillance. So
all you do is pray and you hope that uh.
And I had to try to keep her as aware
(25:54):
as I could without the actual words of the letters
in form in her head, because I just couldn't, and
you know, as it was, she was already anxious all
the time.
Speaker 1 (26:07):
So yeah, now I would just assume that on a
daily basis, you're constantly on the lookout, Like every time
you go into your house or leave your house. Are
you just constantly aware of your surroundings all the time?
Speaker 3 (26:19):
Yeah, And every time you walk into the house, you're
constantly afraid of what you might find, what you might encounter,
what you know you just never know, And so it's
a hyper vigilance that is really interesting. I just found
this study just last week. They did a study on
women's specifically who had either dealt with some sort of
(26:40):
violence or stalking specifically, or some sort of major trauma
that they would have to be hyper aware for the
rest of their lives, and they're at a higher rate
of stroke of heart failure of all these different because
of the hyper vigilance. Your body just can't stay on
that level of energy all the.
Speaker 1 (27:02):
Time, right, I mean, that's not normal. It's not to
have to function at that type of level all the time.
I can't imagine. I mean, the heart rate up all
the time, and just the hyper like you said, the
hyper vigilance, that's not normal. You never have the opportunity
to relax your mind ever, which we need as humans,
and you don't have the opportunity to do that. Now
(27:22):
Now that he's gone to prison and he's been released,
I mean, was the was the fear alleviated when he
went to prison? Did you feel any sense of justice?
Speaker 3 (27:34):
It's interesting because freedom finally, or we had that sweet
spot of freedom where we really could relax. We knew
where he was for three years, and so that was
a really beautiful sweet spot. But and it was interesting
because it was it was a precedent setting case for
the FBI. It was the first ever adjudicated case with
(27:56):
forensics genealogy, which was this brand new technology that our
heroes the two Steves created while solving the Golden State
killer case, and so our US attorneys, the two women
who represented us were while they were excited that he
(28:16):
got anything, because they were afraid he would get nothing. Really,
I think they weren't as I think they weren't as
verbal with me about it beforehand. I think they were
more afraid that he wasn't going to He was just
really going to get absolutely nothing, and they didn't tell
me that beforehand. So when he got three and a
(28:38):
half years, they seemed to be happy, like, oh, thank god,
and I was like, what do you mean thank god? Here?
I was like, how did he not get three years?
And three years? There's two of us. Not only that,
but he threatened to kill my ex husband and unfortunately
his letters were outside you know, they were statute of limitations,
so it had already been seven years and they were
(28:58):
outside jurisdiction. But that doesn't take away from the fact
that he threatened to kill my ex husband. That doesn't
take away from the fact that he threatened to kill
any administrator, teacher, and student at Kaya's school. That doesn't
take away from the fact that, I mean, we know
that there were other there were other women that he
was stalking that unfortunately wouldn't come forward. And I understand why,
(29:20):
because when they when that kind of violent attention is
attached to you and it finally goes away.
Speaker 1 (29:31):
You you don't want to go backwards.
Speaker 3 (29:33):
You don't want you don't want to poke the bear.
You don't want to come forward. You want it to
be gone and done. And so I see why people
have never done a documentary on it, and I see
why people don't even come forward to prosecute it, because
they just want it to be over right. And so
another girl, and it's not my story to tell, so
I won't say who she is, but another girl from
(29:56):
One Life to Live, a young girl. Her mom called
me day and said, are you getting letters from Freddy Krueger?
Because my daughter's getting letters and they're saying if you
don't believe, if he's saying, if you don't believe, I'm
going to do what I'm saying, I'm gonna do, just
ask Ivlarush knows I mean business. So I don't know
how long she was getting those letters, but the FBI
contacted her when we were getting ready to prosecute, and
(30:20):
and she didn't return calls. So but she would have
he would have gotten more time, you know what I mean.
Speaker 2 (30:28):
So it was a correlation. It was the same suspect,
the same suspect. Yeah, same Staler, Yeah, same stocker.
Speaker 1 (30:35):
Now the genealogy, the genetic the DNA, that's really interesting.
First of all, it's it's so interesting that you were
on CSI Miami and that was what like the irony
of it isn't right lost on me.
Speaker 2 (30:45):
That that was your job.
Speaker 3 (30:47):
You were a specialist, right, And then in real life
we were here, we were pretending to have a technology
that we would not have for twelve more years.
Speaker 1 (30:57):
Right, And so we actually just did an episoded a
couple of weeks ago on the Golden State Killer, and
that was so interesting for us to talk about. When
you run the DNA through codis, which I'm sure they
did because I assume they got the DNA from the
envelope and the stamp and everything they were right, and
they run it into the databases and then nothing comes up.
Now they've been able to do that and to put
(31:17):
it into like twenty three and meters and ancestry and
all those things, and then I know it's very complicated.
I know, forensic expert at all, But I do understand
that they kind of find someone related, they make a
family tree, they do all the and then I guess
they found, you know, some things that correlated with what
he had been writing to you, so they narrowed, you know,
they zeroed in on him, and that's how they found him.
(31:40):
But anyway, I just I feel like that's new technology,
but it's going to become more prevalent, because we've been
talking about it a lot lately. Is how now they're
using these genetic databases, which is very interesting.
Speaker 3 (31:51):
It's incredible what the guys did. We called them lovingly,
we call them Steve Squared because there's two Steve's, so
Steve Kramer and Steve and they were both with the FBI.
Steve Kramer was a lawyer with the FBI, and Steve
Bush had been head of SWAT and he had had
an horrible, tragic accident. It almost killed him. It ripped
(32:12):
his back in half and he wasn't even supposed to survive,
but he got kind of patched back together and he
ended up being stuck on a desk and his friend,
Steve Kramer had been a big fan of Michelle McNamara
and Michelle McNamara was the one who was a journalist
who had coined the phrase Golden State Killer, because before
(32:36):
Golden State Killer had been the Vicelia Ransacker, the the
Hillside Strangler, east Side Strangler, at one right, all these things,
because he had he had killed and raped and all
the thing all over California. Well, he ended up seeing
a podcast she did read an article that she wrote
(32:57):
for the La Times, and called Paul Hull, who was
the investigator on the case at the time and had
been for like, you know, twenty plus years, and said,
I'm with the FBI. Is there anything that we can
do to help you? Is there? Maybe We've got some
tools that you don't have. And Paul Hols was like, sure,
come on board, and so they kind of created this
little ragtag team of about six people. Kramer pulled on
(33:20):
Steve Bush and said, you know, you're stuck on a
you want to do this with me? The FBI said
you are absolutely not allowed to do this on FBI time.
It's not you know, I didn't know this. I'm sure
you two do know this, but murder is not FBI jurisdiction.
Speaker 1 (33:35):
I don't know if I did you know that.
Speaker 3 (33:37):
I did not sure. If it's part of a Rico case,
part of a trafficking case, then yes, but murder.
Speaker 2 (33:48):
Is local artfice, your local murder is yeah, for your
sheriff department.
Speaker 3 (33:52):
So he said, you know, so the FBI said, you
can do this on your off time if you want
to stay basically worked weekends doing this thing. And it
was Steve Kramer who said it was the advent of
twenty three and meters and ancestry dot com and jedmatch,
and he said, this is a whole new pool of
genetics of DNA that we didn't have before because, like
(34:14):
you said, all we had was CODIS that was the
only DNA base for all law enforcement. And he said,
I know it's going to take some time until enough
people actually upload their DNA into It's going to take
some years, but I think we can do this. So
it took them four or five years. But and I
think here's the thing too. A lot of people wrongly think, oh,
(34:36):
I would never put my DNA in those databases because
now law enforcement and insurance company, me and everybody will
have my information. But it's actually not true. They are vaults.
They don't share with law enforcement. They don't share with
anyone unless you check the box that says I want
to find other family members. If you wanted to find
other family members, then you've made yourself public. Now you
(34:58):
made yourself public.
Speaker 1 (35:00):
Right, and everyone clicks, I want to find my other family.
Speaker 3 (35:03):
They do, like what was data up to in the
sixth race, you know, so they do, and then after
a few years there was enough millions more data points
and you know, DNA points that when they uploaded the
Golden State killers DNA into these databases, they got they
got a hit on a fifth cousin, and then they
just reverse engineer.
Speaker 1 (35:22):
They just you know, they made like the family tree
and they work their way down to other members then
until they do zero you.
Speaker 3 (35:29):
Know, gumshoe detective stuff and knock on doors and say
who do you know? And that's what they were doing
with my stocker. So my case was the very next
case they picked up after they solved Golden State, because
the FBI had said to them, well, that was a
nice fluke, good for you. You'll never replicate it. It's
not a technology is not replicable, and they said, just
give us a case, and yeah, and they picked up
(35:51):
my case next, and they said again, it's not FBI
just you may not do this on FBI time. And
they just did it to tell the story about eating
chips and guac and beer on the weekends and making
this family tree and finding our stalker. It was really incredible.
They solved our case in two weeks after they got it,
after twelve years of being cold.
Speaker 1 (36:12):
So when they came to you and gave you a name,
what was that feeling like? When you add a name
a photo, you could see what this guy looked like,
who he was, you knew where he lived.
Speaker 2 (36:20):
What was that like?
Speaker 3 (36:22):
It was? I can't even describe the amount of emotions.
We sobbed tears of relief and joy and disbelief and gratitude,
and it was all of it, you know what I mean?
It was everything at once.
Speaker 1 (36:42):
Now, did you think at some point that it was
someone that you knew that could be someone close by?
Was that was that what you thought? Someone near you,
someone in your inner circle maybe? Or did you always
think it was just some random person out somewhere.
Speaker 3 (36:56):
No, At one point we thought it could even be
our our landscaper. We thought at one point it was
maybe our neighbor. At one point we thought we because
we had no face, no name, no identity. It could
be anyone anywhere.
Speaker 2 (37:12):
Right, everywhere you went, you always had fear exrightly, I
mean different levels of fear. But if a gentleman was
following you but organically, and he was an innocent person,
you didn't know if that was him exactly. You didn't
know if he was following you or if he just
happy to be shopping in the same area. Right, So
it was always worrisome for you, right.
Speaker 3 (37:31):
Right, We were always on high Hilert.
Speaker 1 (37:35):
So, now that he's spent time in prison and he's
been released, has there has he did he have to
do any kind of therapy or anything? Was he ordered
to do any mental health type of therapy or were
they just like, you served your time, now you're done.
Speaker 3 (37:49):
Well, he was ordered by the court at the time
when he was sentenced. He'd been in therapy while he
was waiting trial, and he'd been on and then they
put him on meds. So in his statement in court,
he said, I wish I wish I'd been caught sooner.
We're like, yeah too, I wish I'd been grit sooner.
(38:10):
I wish I had therapy sooner. I wish I'd been
on meds sooner because I realize now how much I
needed all these things, which is great. But you know,
now that he's released, he's on three years of probation.
He's got a restraining order, but is there he only
has to check in every two weeks with his probation officer.
Is anybody keeping him on his meds? We all know
(38:30):
people go on and off their meds all the time.
And is he staying in therapy? Like who's paying for that?
I don't know, Like maybe he's not. Now I have
no idea what kind of maintenance he's meant to stay on.
Speaker 1 (38:42):
You know, kaya how do you knowing now as an adult,
what your mom went through all those years? I mean,
how do you feel about everything she went through and
how she handled it? Do you have thoughts on it?
I mean, I as a mom and I have a daughter,
I just think you're so brave and what you went
(39:04):
through and still going to work, still trying to be
the best mom possible, still trying to give your daughter
a normal life, still allowing her to go to high
school and be a cheerleader and all the things, and
having to deal with that mentally and physically and emotionally
and take care of her like it's just so in
brave of you and just that's what moms do. I mean,
that's what we just right do, right And.
Speaker 3 (39:26):
It's funny that you that you say brave, because when
I hear that, I think, God, I wish I had
felt that in the moment, you know what I mean,
I wish I had felt brave. But in reality, you
do what must be done because there's no other way, right.
Speaker 5 (39:41):
Right, I feel like now being a young woman and
a young adult, being able to separate who you know,
just her as my mom to woman to woman, it
is really amazing, you know what she went through, how
she got through. There's so many times I look through,
you know, like my childhood, I'm like, I don't even
(40:02):
know how you got through the days. And you made
my childhood so magical, Like my my childhood really, you know,
for a lot of it did feel so innocent and
fun and like, you know, even though there was this
looming darkness and over precaution and you know, awareness, there was.
Speaker 3 (40:19):
Still like I still felt like a kid.
Speaker 5 (40:21):
And I could you know, believe in Santa and I
could you know, believe in the Easter.
Speaker 3 (40:26):
Bunny for a long time, like it.
Speaker 5 (40:27):
Didn't taint she she made sure that it didn't taint
the rest of like the whimsy and magic of my
childhood and my upbringing. And you know, she was always
the person that was so like, everyone come over on
Fridays and we'll get ready for the cheer gains. You know,
she would help curl everyone's hair for the team and
help new makeup and put lashes on. And you know,
(40:48):
my mom, you know that spirits so high.
Speaker 2 (40:51):
That's great parenting to protect you from all the evil
but yet allow you to have freedom to grow and
thrive and develop and all that. Yet she protected you
not so much that you weren't aware of, you know,
being defensive of yourself and protecting your own self that
there is harm out there, but she really protected you
from any actual harm coming in your way and preventing
(41:13):
you from being a child.
Speaker 3 (41:14):
Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 5 (41:15):
So I really loved my upbringing in my life and yeah,
it is all thanks to my mom.
Speaker 1 (41:20):
So she's a bad ass. So now, how did how
did the docuseries come about? Was that your idea evo?
Or did someone approach you? And did you hesitate at
all about doing it? Because I know you have to
relive it. You have to go back and talk about
the letters. You have to talk about this man. You
have to bring attention to him. Did you hesitate in
doing it or was it more empowering to talk about it?
Because I find it empowering as a woman. It made me,
(41:42):
I tell you, after I watched it, it made me
feel a lot more like I need to be more
aware of my surroundings and things.
Speaker 3 (41:49):
Oh good, I'm glad, thank you. I we did. We
did go back and forth about whether or not we
should do a documentary. I'd originally taken it out as
a scripted series and me because I needed that buffer,
And then it did. But the whole story hadn't been
told yet, because when I took it out as scripted,
(42:09):
he wasn't out of jail yet and everything had not
come to its complete fruition. So I'm glad that it
didn't get picked up then, and the story wasn't being
told exactly the way I wanted it to be told.
So when the opportunity came to do it as a documentary,
I thought, Wow, that's really real, and that's really close
(42:29):
to and do I want to poke this bear? Because
he was now out of jail, like this opportunity came
and he had just been released, and not only had
been released, but at the time, in not twelve years,
we never knew if he was in California or not
if he was because in all the letters he was saying,
I'm around the corner, I'm watching you, I'm watching you
leave work. And so we found out that he'd never
(42:52):
left the state of Ohio. All of a sudden, he's
being released from prison and they released him ten miles
from my house in California. Oh wow, they were using
taxpayer dollars to set him up right by his victims.
It made not one speck of sense. It took us
three months of lobbying, and he just got released last November,
(43:13):
so this is a year ago. It took three months
of lobbying with my US attorneys, my FBI agents, and
everybody possible to get him moved back to Ohio.
Speaker 1 (43:24):
That is insanity to me to think that this man
harassed you from Ohio and then he's released from prison
in California, but they don't make sure that he ends
up back in Ohio. They just release him into California, right,
and they're like, and here you go and where he stayed.
Speaker 3 (43:39):
And he has. And then I said, I said to them, well,
then give me his address, because he can find my
address now that he's in California. And they were like, oh, no, no, no,
he has rights? Oh does he? Because I don't see
why he should have rights. To be honest, where are
my rights? I should be able to know where he
(44:00):
lives if he knows where I live?
Speaker 1 (44:03):
Right, So I'm going to assume ever since that he's
gone to prison and been released from prison, you've had
no contact. He hasn't attempted to contact you at all.
Speaker 3 (44:11):
There's a restraining order, so and he's still on probation,
so there's no contact for him during this three years.
And he's a year into that three years. But I'm
sure he is none too pleased about this documentary. And
you know, here's the scary thing. He was. They talked
(44:32):
a little bit about what he did for a living,
but he was a nurse in a memory care facility.
So lord knows what was happening to these people's hate
parents who at night, late at night with a person
who's got those kind of depraved thoughts right and is
(44:54):
willing to act on them.
Speaker 1 (44:57):
That's a scary thought.
Speaker 3 (44:58):
Yeah, and with people who won't remember because it's a
memory care facility, so what will they know, right and
who won't believe them exactly?
Speaker 1 (45:06):
Well, you know what, thank you Eva for coming on,
and thank you Kaya for being here today and sharing
your story. Just one last question, is there anything that,
like I was saying as a woman, I watched it
and now I kind of took away that I need
to be more vigilant about what's going on around me.
What would you hope that women take away from this?
Speaker 3 (45:24):
For me? I think it's knowing that you're not alone.
Because there's thirteen point five million women, men and children
that are stocked every year. And that's just in the
United States. That's an insane number. And that's across all
social media. It's also DV domestic violence victims. Right now,
(45:44):
there's no We just did an interview with someone who
told us that her niece's best friend was just murdered
last week by her ex boyfriend, who had stocked her
for six months. He had six prior restraining orders. He
had stopped all six of the ex girlfriends yet and
it changed states, moved from state to state with each
new girlfriend. And yet he was never tracked or traced.
(46:06):
So there absolutely needs to be a database, a national
database for stalkers. Because the other statistic is of all
the women murdered in the United States last year, eighty
six percent were stocked first. So this is a crime.
It's considered the crimeless crime stocking because the crime hasn't
(46:27):
happened yet. You're just threatened with something, which is why
the law enforcement, local law enforcement has their hands kind
of tied because nothing's really happened yet. But we know
that stalking escalates. We know eighty six percent of the
time it's going to escalate into murder, and more often
it escalates into rape or some sort of bodily harm.
So it's just a matter of time before this crime
(46:49):
becomes a crime, and it has to be taken more
series and there has to be more stringent sentencing.
Speaker 1 (46:55):
Exactly right. Well, thank you for sharing your story. I
was very brave of you to do that, and kaya
you as well. You're very young, but I feel like
you're like an old soul because of everything that you've
had to go through. I'm sure that you're just mature
beyond your years because of what you've had to deal with.
But thank you so much both of you for coming
onto legally Brunette today and sharing your story.
Speaker 3 (47:17):
Thanks for having us. Thank you so much of.
Speaker 1 (47:19):
Course, thanks and nice meeting you.
Speaker 3 (47:21):
Nice meeting you too.
Speaker 1 (47:24):
A big thank you to Eva LaRue and her daughter
Kaya for coming on legally Brunette today and sharing their story. Again,
you guys, if you want to watch, it's called My
Nightmare Stalker. It's that Eva LaRue story. It is on
Paramount Plus. It's a two part series and it's really interesting.
And I also think it's very important what she said
there at the end about stricter stalking laws. I mean,
(47:45):
it is very true when someone is a stalker and
they're repeatedly stalking, there's not a lot of criminal charges
or it's just.
Speaker 2 (47:53):
It's just someone being scary.
Speaker 1 (47:56):
It's exactly. And then they just get away with it
and get away with it and get away with it.
And that statistic that she said was really enlightening. The
eighty six percent of women end.
Speaker 2 (48:04):
Up being Yeah, she was an exception to the cool.
Speaker 1 (48:07):
Absolutely. Also, thank you guys for following legally Brunette. We're
on our own feed, so if you haven't found us there,
please make sure you do so you can find legally
Brunette wherever. You listen to podcasts and we appreciate you
guys listening. And as always, I love it when you
guys send me DMS and suggests cases. You give me
feedback and opinions and I love to read it, so
please continue to do that. Thank you guys so much
(48:29):
for listening. We appreciate you.
Speaker 2 (48:30):
Thank you,
Hi, guys, Welcome to a new episode of Legally Brunette.
I will be your host Emily Simpson with Shane Okay,
before we get into the Eva LaRue story, we're just
going to do some updates on the Anna Kepner situation,
which we talked about on a previous podcast. When we
first brought up this case, obviously there's not a lot
of information out there. This is the eighteen year old
(00:22):
cheerleader that was found dead recently on the carnival cruise
called Horizon. Her body was found stuffed underneath the bed
in her cabin, covered in US Yes, covered in life
best and she was wrapped in a sheet. Now there's
some more information that has come out, so we're gonna
we're gonna update you guys on that. So Anna Kupner
had an ex boyfriend who has come out and told
(00:42):
reporters that after Anna's memorials. This was after her memorial service.
He said that there was one time when he was
on a FaceTime with her. This I remember him saying.
It was like three o'clock in the morning and she
was lying down and her stepbrother tried to jump on
top of her or sit on top of her. Something
like that, and he actually saw this on the face time.
Speaker 2 (01:00):
Like horse playing.
Speaker 1 (01:01):
You know, I don't know, he didn't give like a context.
Speaker 2 (01:03):
I just think that she doesn't seem like normal will
be here.
Speaker 1 (01:06):
Yeah, I think he just found it just really inappropriate
and strange.
Speaker 3 (01:10):
He said.
Speaker 1 (01:11):
He reported the encounter to Anna's parents and said she
had complained about being uncomfortable around her stepbrother before, but
the parents didn't believe his claims. Obviously, if he's going
to the dad and the mom, the mom or the
step mom is the biological mom of the stepbrother, and
then Anna has a.
Speaker 2 (01:29):
Dadtive we it's father daughter and mother's son right getting married.
Speaker 3 (01:33):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (01:34):
The ex boyfriend went on to describe Anna as his
first love and said he would have been on the
cruise with the Keptner family earlier this month if they
hadn't broken up. He claims that she was scared of him,
and the ex boyfriend's father, Stephen Weston, told Inside Editions
separately it was because he always carried around a big knife. Now,
I think this kid. What I've read this hasn't been
(01:55):
confirmed by the FBI because they haven't really released any information,
but from what I have read multiple times, this stepbrother
is sixteen years old, So if this is true, if
he's carrying around a big knife, I don't know if
as a parent that would be something that I would
be okay, like.
Speaker 2 (02:12):
That was his regular daily I don't know.
Speaker 1 (02:15):
I mean animal Carrie snacks around in her pocket, but
I mean I would be concerned if I had a
child that was a young teenager that was carrying around
real weapons. Investigators have preliminarily ruled that the teen died
as a result of asphyxiation from a bar hold, And
I guess a bar hold is when someone holds your
arm across.
Speaker 2 (02:36):
Your neck or it could be an object or an object, yeah,
as opposed to strangulation, I think, which is probably more
of the hands around the neck or rope.
Speaker 1 (02:45):
Anna Kepner's body showed no signs of sexual assault, nor
were drugs or alcohol found in her system, though the
full autopsy and toxicology reports have not yet been made available.
But I guess there has been some type of statement
that she died of axiation and that there were no
drugs or alcohol found in her system. Anna's birth mother,
(03:06):
Heather Right, told news outlets that she learned of her
daughter's death through an online search. She wasn't contact. I'm
not sure. I feel like that's probably in a strange relationship.
Like I don't know if Anna actually has a lot
of contact with her biological mother.
Speaker 2 (03:19):
I don't know. I didn't see much that showed there was.
Speaker 1 (03:22):
And I believe there's been two stepmothers, So I think
the dad was married previously to a different stepmother, and
then now he's just been recently married again in twenty
twenty four to this recent stepmother. I guess her name
is Sean Tell.
Speaker 2 (03:36):
We'll see how long this one lasts.
Speaker 1 (03:37):
Okay, So Anna's birth mother said that she learned about
her daughter's death or an online search. I guess she
had heard about it or someone.
Speaker 2 (03:44):
Yeah, but she should have heard it from the father first.
Speaker 1 (03:47):
She should have, but I don't think that he reached out.
Speaker 2 (03:50):
My point is he obviously didn't. He allowed enough time
had passed, as she found it out through other means
that it didn't come from the other parent, So he
obviously doesn't have much communication with her.
Speaker 1 (04:03):
Similarly, Anna's step grandfather, whose name is Christopher Donahue, and
if you remember the last name Donahue, that is when
we talked about on this previous podcast. There was someone
named Martin Donahue who posted on Twitter, and he posted
very early on saying that it was the stepbrother and
that the family's not talking about it and he wanted
(04:25):
to get that information out there. He gave details about
how her body was found, and his last name was Donahue.
And this step grandfather named Christopher Donahue said, I don't
know why Anna was staying in a room with her stepbrother.
The swirl of public claims around Anna's death has revived
long simmering disputes. In March thirty first, at twenty twenty three,
a divorce petition filed in Brevard County, Anna's former stepmother,
(04:49):
Tabitha Kapner that's the other stepmom previous to this one,
alleges that Christopher Kaepner, the father, had a history of
physical and mental abuse toward the minor children and toward
the petitioner, and she sought sole parental responsibility for the
children she shared with him and supervised time sharing. She
was married to Christopher Kaepner after he split with Anna's
mother and before he married his third wife, Sean Tell.
(05:12):
So I was right, there were the two step mothers,
and so I feel like the biological mother didn't have
a lot to do with Anna as she was growing up.
It looks like the dad's had full custody. He's been
married a couple of times, and it looks like there's
some right.
Speaker 2 (05:24):
And clearly they went on a trip together her as
an eighteen year old, so she didn't it's not like
you know, she was dragged along.
Speaker 1 (05:30):
Well, let me tell you about So I just read
a recent article that just came out today. So the
grandfather and the grandmother who were on this cruise did
an interview. So I finally figured out we talked about previously.
We weren't sure how the rooms were divided up, and
I wasn't sure of what family members.
Speaker 2 (05:47):
Actually, that's right. Did we find out?
Speaker 1 (05:48):
Yes, So there were nine people total in this family
that were on the cruise.
Speaker 2 (05:54):
No kidding, So do we know you don't have deliver
them all. But we got father, daughter, and step son.
Speaker 1 (06:01):
Okay, So let me break it down. This is how
the rooms were. So there are two younger girls who
stayed with the parents. So that's Chris Kepner and his wife, Chantel.
So that's four people in one of the state rooms. Okay,
So then the second state room had three teenagers. That
was Anna Keepner, that was the stepbrother who's allegedly sixteen,
(06:22):
and then it was her biological brother. So there's three
teenagers in that stateroom. And then the third stateroom on
this cruise was the grandparents, Jeffrey and Barbara Kepner.
Speaker 2 (06:33):
Okay, so we know that she was rooming with thee
the stepbrother. That's that the rumors are swirling. Yeah, that
he's a person of interest or a suspect, right.
Speaker 1 (06:42):
And that also she was fearful of him, and that
he carried around a knife and apparently he'd been would.
Speaker 2 (06:48):
And appropriately in the same room. Okay, I don't know.
Speaker 1 (06:51):
Here's the thing, and you're you're a parent, you have
you have children eight from age twenty four to ten.
I understand that they're considered siblings, but when you have
step siblings that aren't related by blood and have just
recently met because she just married the dad a year
ago in twenty twenty four, so you've got a sixteen
year old boy and an eighteen year old girl.
Speaker 2 (07:13):
Yeah, which is much different than our arrangement because these
are they're close in age and they're older.
Speaker 1 (07:18):
Right, So that's my point.
Speaker 2 (07:19):
You have a sixteen year old always ad sex.
Speaker 1 (07:21):
Right, and an eighteen year old girl staying in a
small stateroom on a cruise together who.
Speaker 2 (07:28):
Is not naturally that's not, you know, necessarily a recipe
for murder.
Speaker 1 (07:33):
Though it's not a recipe for murder. But I'm just saying,
as a parent, I would find that inappropriate and I
would never let that happen.
Speaker 2 (07:38):
I just wanted to make certain that it doesn't mean
like they're no to be homicide, but it does mean
it could be uncomfortable, it could be awkward. It may
not be the type of relationship that they're comfortable with
and they're respecting each other, you know. I mean even
sometimes brothers and sisters don't want to stay in the
same room.
Speaker 1 (07:54):
No, I agree, I'm not say I'm just saying when
it's step it's even a little more.
Speaker 2 (07:59):
Specially, I don't know how long have they been step siblings.
Speaker 1 (08:01):
Only a year I said they were married. They were
married with twenty twenty four, So I'm.
Speaker 2 (08:05):
Saying a question. But okay, right, that fills in some
gaps because last time we were talking, were saying they
all showed up to breakfast except for her. They were wondering, like,
how did they find out she was missing? Like did
they just overhear it or were they calling for her?
What they do when she didn't show up? And we
were wondering who was in the room with her? Now
we know at least they stayed. She stayed with her
(08:25):
brother and stepbrother, right, so what the brothers get up,
go to breakfast, and then they're like, we don't know
where this is.
Speaker 1 (08:32):
The question is when this occurred, where was the biological
brother because I'm assuming he was not in the room
at the time.
Speaker 2 (08:40):
Yeah, well, we don't know. I don't know, but that's
very plausible, right, And then the.
Speaker 1 (08:45):
Question is where did he sleep? Did he come back
to the room and she wasn't there and he didn't
think that was strange? I don't know. I have so
many questions about what happened. All we know is at
the end of the day, that she's not alive, that
the stepbrothers suspect that he did leep in the bed
that night, that I've read that allegedly that he woke up,
that he you know, whatever happened happened.
Speaker 2 (09:04):
Also of them are on you know, the list of
to be interviewed even if it's the brother, Well, right,
brother doesn't automatically rule out homicide, right, but the brother
also maybe in a party, but he might know a lot.
Speaker 1 (09:18):
I'm sure. Right now the FBI is pulling all the
surveillance videos so they know who went in and out
and what time, and then they're pulling all the key
card data so they know who went in and out
of that room. And also the grandmother in this interview
that I just read, claims that the step brother told
her that he doesn't remember what happened in the room
that night, and that he was hospitalized right after this
(09:42):
cruise into some type of mental health treatment, and that
he's been released.
Speaker 2 (09:46):
But he's trying to claim that he had.
Speaker 1 (09:48):
Some psychotic break or something I.
Speaker 2 (09:51):
Don't right, blacked out and doesn't have any memory and
can't be held accountable and therefore you should be released.
Speaker 1 (09:56):
Well, that's a lot of free meditation. I don't know.
I don't, I don't know, but I mean.
Speaker 2 (10:00):
That it's possibly trying to go in that direction.
Speaker 1 (10:02):
Possibly, but obviously we need more information on what happened
that night.
Speaker 2 (10:06):
Okay, But may I say something, So even if that
were the case, even if he had a crystal ball
that could say, yeah, he blacked out, he had no
he had an episode, like he had no bad intentions whatever,
You still got to put him in prison. Yeah, because
that could happen again. Absolutely, So it's like, okay, fine,
we're not going to put you in prison. As it's
not always as a matter of punishment. Sometimes it's a
(10:28):
matter of keeping with anxiety.
Speaker 1 (10:29):
Yeah, exactly. The grandmother also claimed in the article there
was some more details about that evening. She said that
Anna did leave dinner early that night because she said
her braces were bothering her. She might have gotten them tightened.
You know how when you get your braces tightened, it
really bothers you and hurts. Yea, So she left dinner
early that night because her braces were bothering her. But
she said then she she went and changed and reappeared
(10:53):
later at the casino and gambled a little bit like
twenty dollars with her grandmother and grandfather. Then she told
her grandma, I don't feel well. I'm going to go
back to the room. And then the grandmother claims that
was the last time that she saw her, and then
the next morning they are all at breakfast I'm not
sure if they're looking for her or what. Those details
have not come to show up for breakfast and show
(11:13):
up right. And then the grandfather heard a medical alert.
I assume as soon as the housekeeper walked in and
found that body, that there was some type of medical.
Speaker 2 (11:20):
Alert that went automatic, notice right and alert right.
Speaker 1 (11:24):
And then the room number was I guess the room
number was said over the speaker. The grandfather recognized the
room number, knowing it was one of their state rooms.
He goes to the room, he sees her. He claims
she had bruises on her neck. They knew that she
was dead just upon walking in and seeing the body.
I guess people were removed from the room.
Speaker 2 (11:41):
I hoped he never know what that's like.
Speaker 1 (11:42):
All right. So that's all the information we have so far,
and Anna Keepner, obviously we will keep following the case
and keep updating you guys on it as it goes along.
We're going to take a little break now, but when
we come back, we will be interviewing Eva LaRue and
her daughter Kaya. We're excited today. We're going to have
(12:06):
a guest on here in just a few minutes. Her
name is Eva LaRue. If you were a fan of
CSI Miami. She was an actress on that for many years.
So Eva LaRue has a new two part series out
on Paramount Plus. It is called My Nightmare Stalker. So
for more than a decade, Eva LaRue endured a terrifying
stalking campaign carried out by an anonymous man who signed
(12:30):
his threats as Freddy Krueger. This started back in two
thousand and seven and continued all the way until twenty nineteen.
The CSA Miami and she was also on All My Children.
Actress received dozens of graphic threatening letters aimed at both
her and her young daughter. LaRue's experience is explored in
(12:50):
this two part Paramount Plus documentary My Nightmare Stalker, The
Ava LaRue Story, which debuted back on November thirteenth, which
Shane and I have both watched now. The harassment began
when Eva and her daughter Kaya started receiving disturbing letters
filled with violent threats from a sender who called himself
Freddy Krueger. And the letters are so graphic, yeah, I
(13:14):
mean horrific. After years of harassment, the investigation identified the
stalker as James David Rogers. He was an Ohio man
just a little shout out to my home state, people
of Ohio.
Speaker 2 (13:27):
My people there there are people never disappointing the true
crime and.
Speaker 1 (13:30):
You know what, also talking about Ohio. I don't know
if any of you out there are a big fan
of forensic files like I am. But if you watch
forensic files religiously like I do, I don't know why,
but many of the episodes I take place in Ohio.
Speaker 2 (13:47):
I think it's probably because they have better resources and
access to get the yeah, the interviews and the all
the investigation journals and whatever.
Speaker 1 (13:57):
Right, So anyway, another shout out to Ohio. According to
federal authorities, he sent a total of thirty seven letters
between two thousand and seven and twenty fifteen, many of
them describing horrific fantasies involving Eva and also her daughter.
His behavior escalated in twenty nineteen when he began calling
(14:17):
Kaya's high school, leaving explicit voicemails of what he was
going to do to her.
Speaker 2 (14:22):
And none of these messages, whether it be by voicemail
or letter, were like I love you or anything saying
like I want you. It was just violent.
Speaker 1 (14:34):
So he did start out, I believe, in the beginning
with some letters that were adoration of love and like
I'm obsessed with you and I'm in love with you
and you know, and then it went I mean, then
it just went psychotic.
Speaker 2 (14:47):
So by no, I was like, never mind, I want
to dismemory you, you know.
Speaker 1 (14:51):
And it makes me think, was there some is that
what happens when someone doesn't get a letter back? I mean,
when he wrote the initial letters, was it because he
was expecting some type of adoration back, like she was
going to write him back and be like I love
you too. Random man in Ohio, Freddy Krueger. And then
when that didn't happen, that's when he goes off the
deep end. And then it goes from love and I
(15:12):
want to marry you and be with you too, now
I'm going to dismember you, and.
Speaker 2 (15:15):
I don't know. I don't know.
Speaker 1 (15:17):
But so by using the DNA discovered from the envelopes
and in putting that into genetic genealogy databases, the FBI
connected Rogers to the threats. This led investigators to Ohio,
where they confirmed the match using DNA from a discarded
soda straw. Rogers was arrested in late twenty nineteen and
later pleaded guilty to multiple charges of stalking and sending
(15:40):
threatening communications. He received a forty month federal sentence and
apologized in court, while Eva LaRue told him she forgave him,
but she would never forget because she would always carry
the fear with her for life. He was released in
twenty twenty.
Speaker 2 (15:54):
Four, two years Yeah.
Speaker 1 (15:57):
Yeah, I mean, I guess because he never followed through
with any type of overt act, I guess that would
make it more than just the threatening part of it.
Speaker 2 (16:11):
Yeah. He never Yeah, he never committed a violent act,
just words. So I guess that's even though it could
be you know, equally as frightening.
Speaker 1 (16:20):
Right because you don't. You don't.
Speaker 2 (16:22):
Yeah, maybe even more frightening because you don't. Yeah, it's
a mystery right when it's going to be carried out
if it will.
Speaker 1 (16:28):
Can you imagine though, the torment we're going to get
into this because she's going to come on and we're
going to ask her. But that many years of living
with that kind of fear, and to have a daughter
and to live every single days thinking is he outside,
is he in my car? Is following my car?
Speaker 2 (16:44):
Is he in my and not knowing what he looked
like so you don't even know is it that person?
Is it that person?
Speaker 3 (16:48):
Right?
Speaker 1 (16:49):
And coming home at night and coming into your house
like putting the key and then coming in and thinking
is there someone in my home? Did he get in?
Speaker 2 (16:56):
Because I come home, I hear the cat and it
worries me, right, I get cat worried. But I don't
know it's the cat at first.
Speaker 1 (17:03):
We have three dogs and the cat scared you when
you come home.
Speaker 2 (17:06):
Yeah, because the dogs are obviously dogs. Cats are like
under the table and the tablecloth.
Speaker 1 (17:11):
Now we know Shane's scared of cat.
Speaker 2 (17:13):
No, until when I don't know what's a cat? Okay,
I don't know what's a cat?
Speaker 1 (17:18):
Hi Eva, how are you? Thanks for coming on today. Great,
nice to meet you as well. First of all, I'd
have to say I'm a big fan of the CSI
shows and CSI Miamis to watch it back in the day.
Speaker 3 (17:30):
So it's just exciting yours.
Speaker 1 (17:33):
Oh, thank you, oh, thank you so much. And my
husband Shane, well, thank you, well, thank you so much
for coming on legally Brunette and discussing your story. As
Shane and I watched the two part series last night
just to prepare and kind of understand what you went through,
but I just want to start. Let's just start at
(17:53):
the beginning. Now, when you first started receiving, like the
first letter, was it something that you took seriously or
was that kind of par for the course with who
you are. You're an actress, you're on TV, you've been
on soap operas, obviously you're in the public eye.
Speaker 3 (18:07):
We from the very first letter, we took it seriously.
It was like a stock my body because I'd never
got you know, for all the years that I've done
soap operas and and all the years that you know,
and at that point, I'd only been on CSI for
two years CSI Miami, and I had never gotten any
(18:28):
kind I mean you obviously, you know get the I
don't like your character, you know, like that kind of
run of the mill, I don't like your you know,
like who you're being or whatever. But I had never
gotten that kind of crazy, uh.
Speaker 4 (18:46):
But but violent and hateful and graphic, graphic and massive
kiss like all of an heinous, depraved, And I'd never
gotten anything like that ever before.
Speaker 3 (18:59):
So from the very first letter, I took it seriously.
And then the letter started coming one right after the
next we got one the next day, We got one
the next day. You know, he would go on these
ram pages where we would get like eight letters and
then we wouldn't get any for a month or a month,
and then he'd go on a rampage again. And then
sometimes it would be a couple of months before we
(19:20):
get them. Sometimes it would be six months, and we
would think, oh, maybe he got off you know us, and.
Speaker 1 (19:28):
He moved on.
Speaker 3 (19:29):
Yeah, you don't hope he moves on to somebody else,
but that he like got a life or something, or
maybe like maybe you.
Speaker 1 (19:33):
Got a girlfriend or something. Maybe exactly you found some
happiness that so he's not spending his time.
Speaker 3 (19:40):
You know, maybe you know anything, right, And then all
of a sudden they'd start coming out of the blue again.
So I really think, I mean, it really boils down
to that that insanity, that mental health issue, that the
obsessive you know where where people they talk about people
get into their addiction. Like when you see that blank
whether it's alcoho or drug addiction or whatever, you see
(20:02):
that blankness in their face because they're in their addiction
in that moment, there's no breaking them out of that
obsession with.
Speaker 1 (20:10):
That thing, right, exactly. I Hi, Kaya, I apologize. Kaya's
on here too, your daughter.
Speaker 5 (20:16):
How much are you now, Kaya, I'm twenty three.
Speaker 1 (20:19):
Oh twenty three. That sounds so young, doesn't it. It
sounds so yung so Kaya. In the series, you talk
about how your mom protected you for the majority of it. Correct,
you didn't really know what was going on and what
she was dealing with emotionally, and so it wasn't really
until when he contacted the high school where you were at.
Is that when you kind of became aware of how
serious it was and what was going on.
Speaker 5 (20:42):
Not exactly, I would say, my mom kept the details
from me growing up, Okay, me knowing exactly what he
was saying in the letters. Obviously I know what they
are now, But it was one once I started becoming
a teenager, you know, and I was going out with
friends the mall across the stream from my high school,
and even you know, getting into the later years of
middle school, that I knew how serious it was. And
(21:05):
really I feel like there was always an energy of,
you know, how dangerous he was, that we needed to
be cautious. So even though she wasn't detailing the you
know what the letters were saying, there was always an
energy around it that it was like I am in
danger constantly when I'm out, even in the house, you know,
there is someone lurking and trying to find us. So
(21:27):
but once he called the high school, it just kind
of crossed a whole other level where it was he
now had access to me, where some place that I
would be every day for eight hours a day, and
where my friends were, where my teachers were, you know,
and where I could be around and I had, you know,
cheer practice. So it just kind of crossed a whole
(21:48):
new line for me that I really didn't feel safe,
and he was also pretending to be my dad, and
you know that had all this information about me that
I now couldn't protect myself and neither can cheat.
Speaker 2 (22:01):
Do we know how he located your school?
Speaker 5 (22:04):
I think through Instagram probably there was a photo where,
you know, I think it was my my senior night
and my dad and my mom had obviously my mom
was there, but my dad had come out too, and
there's a photo with me and them, and I have
this big nd on my you know, cheer uniform, and
it just sucks because that was just a celebratory day,
(22:26):
you know, my senior night of high.
Speaker 1 (22:28):
School and you just want to post it and celebrate
the evening.
Speaker 5 (22:32):
And both your there on her Instagram and it's just
you know, you've.
Speaker 3 (22:37):
It's one of those ship ups when you're just not
thinking about you know, you're just like living your life
sor year.
Speaker 5 (22:44):
Yeah, and there's only two Notre Dames, so you know,
there's Notre Dame Academy or Notre Dame High School and
it's just like, you know, he right.
Speaker 1 (22:53):
He you know he might have called the other one too,
who knows, you know, until he made a connection, you
know that that that he was your dad. And then
they they were asking you, right, didn't they come to you?
Then they were like, your dad's here to get you
or he's coming to get you or something like that.
Speaker 5 (23:08):
They called me into the front office and it's funny
because I love my dad and he's very much a
part of my life.
Speaker 1 (23:14):
But he lived in Palm Desert, so he was two
hours away.
Speaker 5 (23:17):
He wasn't the he wasn't the first collar or the
second color on the sheet list. So they called it
and were like, hey, do you want to text your
dad separate because like he's he's here or he's saying
that you know he's gonna come pick you up, and
it is kind of what led into me texting my mom,
being like, there's no way he would have called my school.
He would have called my mom first, or my mom's
assistant or you know. So that kind of was the
(23:40):
whole spiral of like this is so at a character.
And then he had finally texted me back saying no,
I didn't. It was like a light went off, like
I just knew and I hadn't thought about him. He
wasn't always at the forefront of my mind.
Speaker 3 (23:54):
You know, you can't live.
Speaker 5 (23:56):
In fear constantly, and so it was just kind of
like this weird sub unders thought. It was like it's him,
Like just alarm.
Speaker 3 (24:02):
Bells went off.
Speaker 1 (24:04):
Now Eva. I mean, I'm a mother too, And so
when all this is going on and you have a daughter,
what was it like on a daily basis, like just
to try to protect her because you know, you want
to give her freedom, you want to go out with
her friends, you want her to go to cheerleading practice,
you want her to be a normal teen, but you
also aren't exactly normal because of the position that you're in.
So what was it that you had to do on
a daily basis to make sure that she was safe
(24:26):
or that you felt like she was safe.
Speaker 3 (24:28):
That was the worst part of it, because, like you said,
as moms, as parents, it's our that's our only job, right,
your only job is to is to keep your kids
safe and to make sure they make it through adulthood
and all of the things. And I felt at a
complete loss at times because you know, we ended up
having to move twice when he ended up finding our address.
(24:50):
We I did everything I could, you know, we were
you know, a lot of people have said to me,
well you know why, you know, didn't you have security
or didn't you have Well, you know, some of the
biggest stars on the planet have gazillions of dollars for security.
Look at Brad Pitt and somebody ended up in his
actual bed, got you know, Sandra Bullock and somebody she's
(25:12):
crouched in her in her closet while somebody was in
her rummaging through her kitchen. You know these it doesn't
matter the amount of security. And of course I didn't
have that kind of budget. I had whatever within my
budget to secure myself with. But but it doesn't seem
that that really matters in the end. So you're constantly
(25:34):
scared to death, not just for yourself, but for your child,
because you know, when they get to be a teenager,
they're out doing stuff they probably shouldn't be doing anyway,
and they're outside of your realm of constant surveillance. So
all you do is pray and you hope that uh.
And I had to try to keep her as aware
(25:54):
as I could without the actual words of the letters
in form in her head, because I just couldn't, and
you know, as it was, she was already anxious all
the time.
Speaker 1 (26:07):
So yeah, now I would just assume that on a
daily basis, you're constantly on the lookout, Like every time
you go into your house or leave your house. Are
you just constantly aware of your surroundings all the time?
Speaker 3 (26:19):
Yeah, And every time you walk into the house, you're
constantly afraid of what you might find, what you might encounter,
what you know you just never know, And so it's
a hyper vigilance that is really interesting. I just found
this study just last week. They did a study on
women's specifically who had either dealt with some sort of
(26:40):
violence or stalking specifically, or some sort of major trauma
that they would have to be hyper aware for the
rest of their lives, and they're at a higher rate
of stroke of heart failure of all these different because
of the hyper vigilance. Your body just can't stay on
that level of energy all the.
Speaker 1 (27:02):
Time, right, I mean, that's not normal. It's not to
have to function at that type of level all the time.
I can't imagine. I mean, the heart rate up all
the time, and just the hyper like you said, the
hyper vigilance, that's not normal. You never have the opportunity
to relax your mind ever, which we need as humans,
and you don't have the opportunity to do that. Now
(27:22):
Now that he's gone to prison and he's been released,
I mean, was the was the fear alleviated when he
went to prison? Did you feel any sense of justice?
Speaker 3 (27:34):
It's interesting because freedom finally, or we had that sweet
spot of freedom where we really could relax. We knew
where he was for three years, and so that was
a really beautiful sweet spot. But and it was interesting
because it was it was a precedent setting case for
the FBI. It was the first ever adjudicated case with
(27:56):
forensics genealogy, which was this brand new technology that our
heroes the two Steves created while solving the Golden State
killer case, and so our US attorneys, the two women
who represented us were while they were excited that he
(28:16):
got anything, because they were afraid he would get nothing. Really,
I think they weren't as I think they weren't as
verbal with me about it beforehand. I think they were
more afraid that he wasn't going to He was just
really going to get absolutely nothing, and they didn't tell
me that beforehand. So when he got three and a
(28:38):
half years, they seemed to be happy, like, oh, thank god,
and I was like, what do you mean thank god? Here?
I was like, how did he not get three years?
And three years? There's two of us. Not only that,
but he threatened to kill my ex husband and unfortunately
his letters were outside you know, they were statute of limitations,
so it had already been seven years and they were
(28:58):
outside jurisdiction. But that doesn't take away from the fact
that he threatened to kill my ex husband. That doesn't
take away from the fact that he threatened to kill
any administrator, teacher, and student at Kaya's school. That doesn't
take away from the fact that, I mean, we know
that there were other there were other women that he
was stalking that unfortunately wouldn't come forward. And I understand why,
(29:20):
because when they when that kind of violent attention is
attached to you and it finally goes away.
Speaker 1 (29:31):
You you don't want to go backwards.
Speaker 3 (29:33):
You don't want you don't want to poke the bear.
You don't want to come forward. You want it to
be gone and done. And so I see why people
have never done a documentary on it, and I see
why people don't even come forward to prosecute it, because
they just want it to be over right. And so
another girl, and it's not my story to tell, so
I won't say who she is, but another girl from
(29:56):
One Life to Live, a young girl. Her mom called
me day and said, are you getting letters from Freddy Krueger?
Because my daughter's getting letters and they're saying if you
don't believe, if he's saying, if you don't believe, I'm
going to do what I'm saying, I'm gonna do, just
ask Ivlarush knows I mean business. So I don't know
how long she was getting those letters, but the FBI
contacted her when we were getting ready to prosecute, and
(30:20):
and she didn't return calls. So but she would have
he would have gotten more time, you know what I mean.
Speaker 2 (30:28):
So it was a correlation. It was the same suspect,
the same suspect. Yeah, same Staler, Yeah, same stocker.
Speaker 1 (30:35):
Now the genealogy, the genetic the DNA, that's really interesting.
First of all, it's it's so interesting that you were
on CSI Miami and that was what like the irony
of it isn't right lost on me.
Speaker 2 (30:45):
That that was your job.
Speaker 3 (30:47):
You were a specialist, right, And then in real life
we were here, we were pretending to have a technology
that we would not have for twelve more years.
Speaker 1 (30:57):
Right, And so we actually just did an episoded a
couple of weeks ago on the Golden State Killer, and
that was so interesting for us to talk about. When
you run the DNA through codis, which I'm sure they
did because I assume they got the DNA from the
envelope and the stamp and everything they were right, and
they run it into the databases and then nothing comes up.
Now they've been able to do that and to put
(31:17):
it into like twenty three and meters and ancestry and
all those things, and then I know it's very complicated.
I know, forensic expert at all, But I do understand
that they kind of find someone related, they make a
family tree, they do all the and then I guess
they found, you know, some things that correlated with what
he had been writing to you, so they narrowed, you know,
they zeroed in on him, and that's how they found him.
(31:40):
But anyway, I just I feel like that's new technology,
but it's going to become more prevalent, because we've been
talking about it a lot lately. Is how now they're
using these genetic databases, which is very interesting.
Speaker 3 (31:51):
It's incredible what the guys did. We called them lovingly,
we call them Steve Squared because there's two Steve's, so
Steve Kramer and Steve and they were both with the FBI.
Steve Kramer was a lawyer with the FBI, and Steve
Bush had been head of SWAT and he had had
an horrible, tragic accident. It almost killed him. It ripped
(32:12):
his back in half and he wasn't even supposed to survive,
but he got kind of patched back together and he
ended up being stuck on a desk and his friend,
Steve Kramer had been a big fan of Michelle McNamara
and Michelle McNamara was the one who was a journalist
who had coined the phrase Golden State Killer, because before
(32:36):
Golden State Killer had been the Vicelia Ransacker, the the
Hillside Strangler, east Side Strangler, at one right, all these things,
because he had he had killed and raped and all
the thing all over California. Well, he ended up seeing
a podcast she did read an article that she wrote
(32:57):
for the La Times, and called Paul Hull, who was
the investigator on the case at the time and had
been for like, you know, twenty plus years, and said,
I'm with the FBI. Is there anything that we can
do to help you? Is there? Maybe We've got some
tools that you don't have. And Paul Hols was like, sure,
come on board, and so they kind of created this
little ragtag team of about six people. Kramer pulled on
(33:20):
Steve Bush and said, you know, you're stuck on a
you want to do this with me? The FBI said
you are absolutely not allowed to do this on FBI time.
It's not you know, I didn't know this. I'm sure
you two do know this, but murder is not FBI jurisdiction.
Speaker 1 (33:35):
I don't know if I did you know that.
Speaker 3 (33:37):
I did not sure. If it's part of a Rico case,
part of a trafficking case, then yes, but murder.
Speaker 2 (33:48):
Is local artfice, your local murder is yeah, for your
sheriff department.
Speaker 3 (33:52):
So he said, you know, so the FBI said, you
can do this on your off time if you want
to stay basically worked weekends doing this thing. And it
was Steve Kramer who said it was the advent of
twenty three and meters and ancestry dot com and jedmatch,
and he said, this is a whole new pool of
genetics of DNA that we didn't have before because, like
(34:14):
you said, all we had was CODIS that was the
only DNA base for all law enforcement. And he said,
I know it's going to take some time until enough
people actually upload their DNA into It's going to take
some years, but I think we can do this. So
it took them four or five years. But and I
think here's the thing too. A lot of people wrongly think, oh,
(34:36):
I would never put my DNA in those databases because
now law enforcement and insurance company, me and everybody will
have my information. But it's actually not true. They are vaults.
They don't share with law enforcement. They don't share with
anyone unless you check the box that says I want
to find other family members. If you wanted to find
other family members, then you've made yourself public. Now you
(34:58):
made yourself public.
Speaker 1 (35:00):
Right, and everyone clicks, I want to find my other family.
Speaker 3 (35:03):
They do, like what was data up to in the
sixth race, you know, so they do, and then after
a few years there was enough millions more data points
and you know, DNA points that when they uploaded the
Golden State killers DNA into these databases, they got they
got a hit on a fifth cousin, and then they
just reverse engineer.
Speaker 1 (35:22):
They just you know, they made like the family tree
and they work their way down to other members then
until they do zero you.
Speaker 3 (35:29):
Know, gumshoe detective stuff and knock on doors and say
who do you know? And that's what they were doing
with my stocker. So my case was the very next
case they picked up after they solved Golden State, because
the FBI had said to them, well, that was a
nice fluke, good for you. You'll never replicate it. It's
not a technology is not replicable, and they said, just
give us a case, and yeah, and they picked up
(35:51):
my case next, and they said again, it's not FBI
just you may not do this on FBI time. And
they just did it to tell the story about eating
chips and guac and beer on the weekends and making
this family tree and finding our stalker. It was really incredible.
They solved our case in two weeks after they got it,
after twelve years of being cold.
Speaker 1 (36:12):
So when they came to you and gave you a name,
what was that feeling like? When you add a name
a photo, you could see what this guy looked like,
who he was, you knew where he lived.
Speaker 2 (36:20):
What was that like?
Speaker 3 (36:22):
It was? I can't even describe the amount of emotions.
We sobbed tears of relief and joy and disbelief and gratitude,
and it was all of it, you know what I mean?
It was everything at once.
Speaker 1 (36:42):
Now, did you think at some point that it was
someone that you knew that could be someone close by?
Was that was that what you thought? Someone near you,
someone in your inner circle maybe? Or did you always
think it was just some random person out somewhere.
Speaker 3 (36:56):
No, At one point we thought it could even be
our our landscaper. We thought at one point it was
maybe our neighbor. At one point we thought we because
we had no face, no name, no identity. It could
be anyone anywhere.
Speaker 2 (37:12):
Right, everywhere you went, you always had fear exrightly, I
mean different levels of fear. But if a gentleman was
following you but organically, and he was an innocent person,
you didn't know if that was him exactly. You didn't
know if he was following you or if he just
happy to be shopping in the same area. Right, So
it was always worrisome for you, right.
Speaker 3 (37:31):
Right, We were always on high Hilert.
Speaker 1 (37:35):
So, now that he's spent time in prison and he's
been released, has there has he did he have to
do any kind of therapy or anything? Was he ordered
to do any mental health type of therapy or were
they just like, you served your time, now you're done.
Speaker 3 (37:49):
Well, he was ordered by the court at the time
when he was sentenced. He'd been in therapy while he
was waiting trial, and he'd been on and then they
put him on meds. So in his statement in court,
he said, I wish I wish I'd been caught sooner.
We're like, yeah too, I wish I'd been grit sooner.
(38:10):
I wish I had therapy sooner. I wish I'd been
on meds sooner because I realize now how much I
needed all these things, which is great. But you know,
now that he's released, he's on three years of probation.
He's got a restraining order, but is there he only
has to check in every two weeks with his probation officer.
Is anybody keeping him on his meds? We all know
(38:30):
people go on and off their meds all the time.
And is he staying in therapy? Like who's paying for that?
I don't know, Like maybe he's not. Now I have
no idea what kind of maintenance he's meant to stay on.
Speaker 1 (38:42):
You know, kaya how do you knowing now as an adult,
what your mom went through all those years? I mean,
how do you feel about everything she went through and
how she handled it? Do you have thoughts on it?
I mean, I as a mom and I have a daughter,
I just think you're so brave and what you went
(39:04):
through and still going to work, still trying to be
the best mom possible, still trying to give your daughter
a normal life, still allowing her to go to high
school and be a cheerleader and all the things, and
having to deal with that mentally and physically and emotionally
and take care of her like it's just so in
brave of you and just that's what moms do. I mean,
that's what we just right do, right And.
Speaker 3 (39:26):
It's funny that you that you say brave, because when
I hear that, I think, God, I wish I had
felt that in the moment, you know what I mean,
I wish I had felt brave. But in reality, you
do what must be done because there's no other way, right.
Speaker 5 (39:41):
Right, I feel like now being a young woman and
a young adult, being able to separate who you know,
just her as my mom to woman to woman, it
is really amazing, you know what she went through, how
she got through. There's so many times I look through,
you know, like my childhood, I'm like, I don't even
(40:02):
know how you got through the days. And you made
my childhood so magical, Like my my childhood really, you know,
for a lot of it did feel so innocent and
fun and like, you know, even though there was this
looming darkness and over precaution and you know, awareness, there was.
Speaker 3 (40:19):
Still like I still felt like a kid.
Speaker 5 (40:21):
And I could you know, believe in Santa and I
could you know, believe in the Easter.
Speaker 3 (40:26):
Bunny for a long time, like it.
Speaker 5 (40:27):
Didn't taint she she made sure that it didn't taint
the rest of like the whimsy and magic of my
childhood and my upbringing. And you know, she was always
the person that was so like, everyone come over on
Fridays and we'll get ready for the cheer gains. You know,
she would help curl everyone's hair for the team and
help new makeup and put lashes on. And you know,
(40:48):
my mom, you know that spirits so high.
Speaker 2 (40:51):
That's great parenting to protect you from all the evil
but yet allow you to have freedom to grow and
thrive and develop and all that. Yet she protected you
not so much that you weren't aware of, you know,
being defensive of yourself and protecting your own self that
there is harm out there, but she really protected you
from any actual harm coming in your way and preventing
(41:13):
you from being a child.
Speaker 3 (41:14):
Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 5 (41:15):
So I really loved my upbringing in my life and yeah,
it is all thanks to my mom.
Speaker 1 (41:20):
So she's a bad ass. So now, how did how
did the docuseries come about? Was that your idea evo?
Or did someone approach you? And did you hesitate at
all about doing it? Because I know you have to
relive it. You have to go back and talk about
the letters. You have to talk about this man. You
have to bring attention to him. Did you hesitate in
doing it or was it more empowering to talk about it?
Because I find it empowering as a woman. It made me,
(41:42):
I tell you, after I watched it, it made me
feel a lot more like I need to be more
aware of my surroundings and things.
Speaker 3 (41:49):
Oh good, I'm glad, thank you. I we did. We
did go back and forth about whether or not we
should do a documentary. I'd originally taken it out as
a scripted series and me because I needed that buffer,
And then it did. But the whole story hadn't been
told yet, because when I took it out as scripted,
(42:09):
he wasn't out of jail yet and everything had not
come to its complete fruition. So I'm glad that it
didn't get picked up then, and the story wasn't being
told exactly the way I wanted it to be told.
So when the opportunity came to do it as a documentary,
I thought, Wow, that's really real, and that's really close
(42:29):
to and do I want to poke this bear? Because
he was now out of jail, like this opportunity came
and he had just been released, and not only had
been released, but at the time, in not twelve years,
we never knew if he was in California or not
if he was because in all the letters he was saying,
I'm around the corner, I'm watching you, I'm watching you
leave work. And so we found out that he'd never
(42:52):
left the state of Ohio. All of a sudden, he's
being released from prison and they released him ten miles
from my house in California. Oh wow, they were using
taxpayer dollars to set him up right by his victims.
It made not one speck of sense. It took us
three months of lobbying, and he just got released last November,
(43:13):
so this is a year ago. It took three months
of lobbying with my US attorneys, my FBI agents, and
everybody possible to get him moved back to Ohio.
Speaker 1 (43:24):
That is insanity to me to think that this man
harassed you from Ohio and then he's released from prison
in California, but they don't make sure that he ends
up back in Ohio. They just release him into California, right,
and they're like, and here you go and where he stayed.
Speaker 3 (43:39):
And he has. And then I said, I said to them, well,
then give me his address, because he can find my
address now that he's in California. And they were like, oh, no, no, no,
he has rights? Oh does he? Because I don't see
why he should have rights. To be honest, where are
my rights? I should be able to know where he
(44:00):
lives if he knows where I live?
Speaker 1 (44:03):
Right, So I'm going to assume ever since that he's
gone to prison and been released from prison, you've had
no contact. He hasn't attempted to contact you at all.
Speaker 3 (44:11):
There's a restraining order, so and he's still on probation,
so there's no contact for him during this three years.
And he's a year into that three years. But I'm
sure he is none too pleased about this documentary. And
you know, here's the scary thing. He was. They talked
(44:32):
a little bit about what he did for a living,
but he was a nurse in a memory care facility.
So lord knows what was happening to these people's hate
parents who at night, late at night with a person
who's got those kind of depraved thoughts right and is
(44:54):
willing to act on them.
Speaker 1 (44:57):
That's a scary thought.
Speaker 3 (44:58):
Yeah, and with people who won't remember because it's a
memory care facility, so what will they know, right and
who won't believe them exactly?
Speaker 1 (45:06):
Well, you know what, thank you Eva for coming on,
and thank you Kaya for being here today and sharing
your story. Just one last question, is there anything that,
like I was saying as a woman, I watched it
and now I kind of took away that I need
to be more vigilant about what's going on around me.
What would you hope that women take away from this?
Speaker 3 (45:24):
For me? I think it's knowing that you're not alone.
Because there's thirteen point five million women, men and children
that are stocked every year. And that's just in the
United States. That's an insane number. And that's across all
social media. It's also DV domestic violence victims. Right now,
(45:44):
there's no We just did an interview with someone who
told us that her niece's best friend was just murdered
last week by her ex boyfriend, who had stocked her
for six months. He had six prior restraining orders. He
had stopped all six of the ex girlfriends yet and
it changed states, moved from state to state with each
new girlfriend. And yet he was never tracked or traced.
(46:06):
So there absolutely needs to be a database, a national
database for stalkers. Because the other statistic is of all
the women murdered in the United States last year, eighty
six percent were stocked first. So this is a crime.
It's considered the crimeless crime stocking because the crime hasn't
(46:27):
happened yet. You're just threatened with something, which is why
the law enforcement, local law enforcement has their hands kind
of tied because nothing's really happened yet. But we know
that stalking escalates. We know eighty six percent of the
time it's going to escalate into murder, and more often
it escalates into rape or some sort of bodily harm.
So it's just a matter of time before this crime
(46:49):
becomes a crime, and it has to be taken more
series and there has to be more stringent sentencing.
Speaker 1 (46:55):
Exactly right. Well, thank you for sharing your story. I
was very brave of you to do that, and kaya
you as well. You're very young, but I feel like
you're like an old soul because of everything that you've
had to go through. I'm sure that you're just mature
beyond your years because of what you've had to deal with.
But thank you so much both of you for coming
onto legally Brunette today and sharing your story.
Speaker 3 (47:17):
Thanks for having us. Thank you so much of.
Speaker 1 (47:19):
Course, thanks and nice meeting you.
Speaker 3 (47:21):
Nice meeting you too.
Speaker 1 (47:24):
A big thank you to Eva LaRue and her daughter
Kaya for coming on legally Brunette today and sharing their story. Again,
you guys, if you want to watch, it's called My
Nightmare Stalker. It's that Eva LaRue story. It is on
Paramount Plus. It's a two part series and it's really interesting.
And I also think it's very important what she said
there at the end about stricter stalking laws. I mean,
(47:45):
it is very true when someone is a stalker and
they're repeatedly stalking, there's not a lot of criminal charges
or it's just.
Speaker 2 (47:53):
It's just someone being scary.
Speaker 1 (47:56):
It's exactly. And then they just get away with it
and get away with it and get away with it.
And that statistic that she said was really enlightening. The
eighty six percent of women end.
Speaker 2 (48:04):
Up being Yeah, she was an exception to the cool.
Speaker 1 (48:07):
Absolutely. Also, thank you guys for following legally Brunette. We're
on our own feed, so if you haven't found us there,
please make sure you do so you can find legally
Brunette wherever. You listen to podcasts and we appreciate you
guys listening. And as always, I love it when you
guys send me DMS and suggests cases. You give me
feedback and opinions and I love to read it, so
please continue to do that. Thank you guys so much
(48:29):
for listening. We appreciate you.
Speaker 2 (48:30):
Thank you,
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