October 28, 2025 • 42 mins
Susan Lorincz shot her neighbor in 2023 under the guise of self defense which is protected under Florida’s “Stand Your Ground” law.
Emily and Shane are dissecting Susan’s motives and the events leading up to the shooting. Plus, they’re diving into the “Stand Your Ground” law that other cases, like Trayvon Martin & George Zimmerman, have centered around too.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
Hi guys, welcome to a new episode of Legally Brunette.
I will be your host today Emily Simpson with my
sidekick Shane Shane. First of all, just a reminder if
you guys have been listening to us on the two
t's network, we have now moved over to our own feed,
So if you want to continue to enjoy all of
the Legally Brunette episodes, which will be weekly, please come
(00:23):
and find us and follow us and leave a review
and listen to us there. Anyway, last week we went
into the murdaw murders, which I a couple of people
dm me and said that you're supposed to pronounce it
murder doc.
Speaker 2 (00:35):
I was about to tell you that, yeah, like with
a c K. I thought, well, I don't know. They
said c K like Murdoc but the murdering man.
Speaker 1 (00:44):
Okay, So anyway, I think down in the South they
say Murdoc just like his name was Alex with an X,
but they pronounced.
Speaker 2 (00:51):
It the past other worries.
Speaker 1 (00:54):
Yeah that is, But anyway, I just wanted to do
just a little bit more info on them. So the
infamous hunting lodge where Alex Murdoch murdered his wife and
son is now up for sale. It was in a
Daily Mail article the South Carolina Mozella estate that previously
belonged to Alex Murdoch is struggling to sell despite stunning
(01:16):
new renovations. The home was last sold for one million
in February of twenty twenty four to a businessman named
Alex Blair of Rockville, who bought the forty eight acre
property at an auction. It's actually a seventeen hundred eight
property sold out, but yeah, they've obviously He's.
Speaker 2 (01:35):
Like, you can have the part with all the blood
and brain splatter, Yes, and I'll keep th rest. That's
what he did.
Speaker 1 (01:42):
He has now placed it back on the market, but
it appears not even a sweeping makeover is enough to
erase the mansion's past. The approximately fifty three hundred square
foot home has now been listed for fifty days at
two point two million, but no buyers have taken the bait.
I don't know which you want to live somewhere where
someone was murdered? No?
Speaker 2 (02:02):
Never, No land like that should be flattened and reconstructed.
Speaker 1 (02:07):
So you think a million dollar renovation like just you're
just covering up.
Speaker 2 (02:12):
Yes me, I don't know what the market says. That's me.
Maybe people down there. Maybe there's a lot of homes
there where there's hunting accidents.
Speaker 1 (02:20):
A lot of hunting accidents. I don't know. I mean
it is a little creepy. I don't know if I
could live some I don't think I could ever live.
Speaker 2 (02:26):
You have to legally disclose if someone died. Oh yeah,
of course in California. I don't know.
Speaker 1 (02:30):
Well this property, I mean clearly everyone everyone knows. I
mean there's people taking field trips there and taking pictures
of it.
Speaker 2 (02:39):
So.
Speaker 1 (02:40):
Photos shared by listing agency brown Land Plantation Advisors show
the recently expanded four bedroom, five bathroom plantation style of state.
Since it sits on a whopping forty eight acres, which
is significantly smaller than its original seventeen one hundred, there's
plenty of room for riding trails. The realtor this estate
(03:01):
is an exceptional blend of luxury, privacy and functionality, ideal
for those seeking a country lifestyle with peak aboo views,
I mean, with space to entertain.
Speaker 2 (03:16):
Please come look at as featured on snap and in
the courtrooms.
Speaker 1 (03:22):
Oh yes, so what see you were making me laugh?
Space entertain or simply enjoy the stunning low country landscape.
Despite the damning evidence against Murdoch, Alex Blair came forward
last year in an attempt to clear the socialite turn
murderer's name. He told realtor dot com and back in
October of twenty twenty four that he tore down the
(03:43):
kennel well. The kennel was gone, that's where the murders
took place, but still possesses the kennel door and window
that contained the bullet holes from the June twenty twenty
one shooting well, so he held on to evidence. He said,
the placement of the bullet holes in the door suggests
that Murdoch did not kill them. I don't know how
that suggests that he didn't kill them. Murdoch is a
(04:06):
big man, he was even bigger back then, and he's
too big for the bullets to have gone through and
the way they did. He explained. Maybe it was karma
for other things that he did, but I don't think
he killed them. He added that anyone would be hard
pressed to find a property in South Carolina's low Country
without a blemish. Oh well, this is what you were saying.
There's probably a lot of hunting accidents and the property
down there, and with.
Speaker 2 (04:26):
Forty eight acres, if you just flatten it the home
and then you can build anywhere. I mean to, It's
not like it's one little lot where you have to
build it the same way, same entrance, same everything. This
is forty eight acres. You could build anywhere.
Speaker 1 (04:39):
You're saying, make it look completely different.
Speaker 2 (04:40):
Yeah, it would be. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (04:41):
Yeah. There was also one more thing about Murdoch, and
I meant to mention this when we did it in
our previous episode. You know, we were talking about motive
and why he might have killed his wife and son,
and we went into a motive a little bit, and
I forgot to mention that, allegedly, I don't know if
it's true because I don't think anyone could confirm it,
but that there were rumblings that his wife had gone
(05:02):
to meet with a divorce attorney. Oh and so.
Speaker 2 (05:05):
So that didn't help her situation with So.
Speaker 1 (05:07):
That is another thing that could have been a motive,
because what it's always.
Speaker 2 (05:11):
Well, then he would lose the money which is used
for his drug addiction.
Speaker 1 (05:14):
Is it's normally cheaper to keep her. But I guess
in his mind it's cheaper to murder her.
Speaker 2 (05:20):
I guess, so if you would like to leave me,
I will give you thirty days notice. Just go. That
is correct, Just go. Yes, no, you leave, I'm not leaving.
You leave.
Speaker 3 (05:36):
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your podcast.
Speaker 1 (06:36):
All right, we're gonna move on to the Perfect Neighbor,
the Susan Lawrence. That's the woman that is. She called
herself the perfect neighbor. That's why they called it that.
Speaker 2 (06:46):
She called herself the perfect neighbor.
Speaker 1 (06:48):
Yes, she in one of the phone calls to the
police that they had recorded, and.
Speaker 2 (06:55):
I thought it was this pure sarcasm from the no.
Speaker 1 (06:58):
She literally said to the please, I'm the perfect neighbor.
Like I'm just this, you know kind.
Speaker 2 (07:05):
She's a single. She was laughing stuck at the police
station that doesn't know thereby called all the time.
Speaker 1 (07:11):
I know, all right, let's just go and go over
briefly this case. If you haven't watched it yet, it's
on Netflix. It's been out for like, I don't know,
just a week now, but everyone's talking about it. In
June of twenty twenty three, Susan Lorenz fatally shot her
neighbor A gk aj Owens and Okalla, Florida, after a
long running dispute that began over neighborhood children playing near
(07:32):
her home. Lorenz had repeatedly called nine one one and
filed complaints claiming the children were loud, trespassing, and threatening her.
On June second of twenty twenty three, A j Owens
went to Lawrence's locked front door to confront her. Lorenz
fired a gun through the door, striking Owens, who later
died at the hospital. Lorenz claimed self defense under Florida's
(07:53):
stand your ground law, saying she feared for her life.
This twenty twenty five Netflix documentary explores the events leading
up to the tragedy and its aftermath. Using body cam footage,
nine to one one recordings, security videos, and first hand interviews,
The film traces how a seemingly ordinary neighborhood feud escalated
into deadly violence. It examines the broader context of race
(08:17):
sphere in Florida's self defense laws, questioning how biases and
systematic issues contribute to such outcomes. The documentary also humanizes
aj Owens, a devoted mother of four, and highlights the
devastating impact her death had on her family and on
the community. And we're going to go into more detail,
but I will tell you when I watched it the most,
(08:40):
I think the hard Obviously, I watch true crime all
the time. I don't watch housewives, I don't watch reality TV.
I watch true crime and I've never I don't know
when you watch true crime, like you know the ending
isn't good right, well.
Speaker 2 (08:53):
You typically know the ending always sometimes like nightline or
Dateline will be right. Kind of a mystery.
Speaker 1 (09:00):
But the thing that was so compelling about this documentary
is that the entire story is told through real footage.
They they I don't know, and there's really nothing else
other than they put together all all of this to
tell a story. And so you're watching it and you
(09:21):
feel like you're in it. You feel like you live
in the neighborhood because you keep seeing the same.
Speaker 2 (09:25):
Houses, the same on the same street, same kids.
Speaker 1 (09:28):
Same street, the same the police officers keep coming. Like
you literally feel like you're immersed into this neighborhood and
into these families and into these children.
Speaker 2 (09:36):
Which actually seemed like a pleasant neighborhood.
Speaker 1 (09:38):
It actually did.
Speaker 2 (09:39):
I was like always out playing. They were all neighbors,
they're all friendly, They're all playing games on each other's lawns,
running up and down the street, and.
Speaker 1 (09:46):
I kept thinking about how our kids would love to
live in a neighborhood, like that they would have so
much fun. They'd be outside all the time and like
playing with all the other kids. All right, let's go
into I. You know, after I watched it, I wanted
to find out more about Susan Larenz because there was
a part, do you remember. There was a part when
the police came and she came to the door and
they were like, is your name Susan Lorenz or something
(10:06):
like that, and she was like yes, and then she
said it's doctor Susan Lawrence. And I'm like, a doctor.
This woman's a doctor.
Speaker 2 (10:12):
Doctor crazy.
Speaker 1 (10:13):
So I googled trying to find because I was like,
there's no way this woman is a doctor. There is
nothing about her being a doctor. I don't know why
she said that. I think it just lends to like
that's clear.
Speaker 2 (10:25):
She said that.
Speaker 1 (10:26):
She said it, Yeah, she said it. She said she
said like he like she was correct him. She was
correcting it, like she was offended that he didn't call
her doctor Susan Lorenz. But the only thing I could
find was that in her trial, people testified, you know,
and it just came up that she'd had different jobs.
And I think currently because she said she worked from home.
(10:48):
She was doing some kind of insurance work. I don't know.
I think she had a license, maybe an insurance license.
Maybe she was a claims adjuster or something something you
can do from home, right from a phone and a computer.
And then I guess previously she'd worked as a chef
for something and that was really it. So it's she's
not a doctor. So I don't know why she said that,
(11:09):
other than it just lends to her delusional state of mind.
Speaker 2 (11:14):
So it's kind of self centered, kind of I think
she's all knowing or whatever, right, self righteous.
Speaker 1 (11:20):
So this begins back in January of twenty twenty one,
Susan Lorenz, who was a fifty eight year old white woman,
made half a dozen calls to nine to one to
one complaining about the children in her neighborhood, sometimes concerning
aj Owens, four young children who are black. As Lorenz
got more irritated with the children, she'd place no trespassing
signs in an open field located near her rental apartment,
(11:43):
file police reports about them, and yell racial slurs at them.
Lorenz even allegedly waived guns at them, according to NBC News,
and this is also according to the kids. I know
in interviews they would say that witnesses reported, and Lorenz
also acknowledged that she assaulted the children with racial insults,
called Owen's children the N word. I can't even it's
(12:04):
even hard for me to even say that. I can't
imagine a I just it's so disturbing to me. One,
the woman clearly hates children.
Speaker 2 (12:14):
Well, people in general, or people.
Speaker 1 (12:17):
She's clearly racist. I mean, she's clearly a menace to society.
But my question is, I don't understand why this woman
moved into that neighborhood in the first place.
Speaker 2 (12:26):
Probably no matter where she's lived most of her life,
this is how she is. Yeah, it's like she can't
get away from people, so she's just gonna complain no
matter what neighborhood she's in.
Speaker 1 (12:35):
Right. So, on June second of twenty twenty three, an
argument breaks out after Lorenz allegedly throws a pair of
roller skates and swings an umbrella at two of Owen's
children who are playing in the field near her apartment. Okay,
let's just break down this field a little bit. Because
she rents her space, and her rental unit does not
(12:55):
have a yard attached to it.
Speaker 2 (12:57):
Now it's all common kind of areas.
Speaker 1 (12:59):
It's common area, but then this grassy area is not
attached to any of the apartment.
Speaker 2 (13:05):
No, that's why if you look at the apartment, there's
like a little kind of closed off area to walk
to the patio in the front door. I figured that
was kind of a way of saying, this is belongs
to this house, so people wouldn't walk into that area.
But you're walking in the common grass and the quote
unquote front yard area. But then it has this kind
of bordered off, half closed area, which I figured was
(13:27):
the only way to distinguish that's her property, like stay
off that.
Speaker 1 (13:31):
Lot, right, but this open area that's on the outside
of her first game is a common area game.
Speaker 2 (13:38):
That's what I'm saying. Yeah, the way it was done
was there's all this open field grass area in front
of all these structures, and if you looked, each structure
had like we out of four walls. Yeah, so you
could walk through a little narrow strip to get into
the patio. And that's the way they designated like personal property.
Speaker 1 (13:57):
Right exactly. But this open space area, the way I
understand it, the person that actually owns the open space area,
the landlord of whatever that land is gave the children
permission to play there, and so the problem is is
that she's mad that these kids are playing in this
open space area even though they've been given permission to
play there, and then she takes it upon herself to put.
Speaker 2 (14:20):
And she would have complained.
Speaker 1 (14:21):
That is true. Yes, I just find it interesting that
she takes it upon herself to put no trespassing signs
on an area that does not even belong to her,
that she doesn't have any ownership or or title to,
and she still is like putting trust no trespassing signs
out there. Let's go back to what we were talking about.
So the children are playing in the field near her apartment.
(14:42):
Allegedly she took some roller skates and threw some roller
skates and swings an umbrella, and I don't know, there's
all kinds of craziness going on. They also keep saying,
and this doesn't show up in some of the articles
I read. But there's also the issue of she allegedly
stole like a like an iPad tablet from one of
the kids.
Speaker 2 (15:01):
I had a neighbor similar. He was crazy anything, you
couldn't do anything. We were hanging Christmas lights, and he
called the police to complain.
Speaker 1 (15:10):
Wait, what neighborhood was this?
Speaker 2 (15:11):
This is my parents' neighborhood. It's actually neighborhood we lived
right now. Yeah, this is in the nineties. Yeah, and
he did everything he could.
Speaker 1 (15:19):
Wait, he called the police because you were hiding.
Speaker 2 (15:21):
Parks on the curb side in front of his house.
And he called the police, and he called a tow truck.
And I was parked on open area like it was legal.
Wasn't public, but yeah, oh yeah yeah. So then I
got really upset. I never told you this, I don't know.
So I took my truck and I parked it on
his lawn. I said, okay, fine, I'll move it. And
(15:43):
I grabbed my truck and I drove it up onto
his lawn and my lights were shining into his front
windows and the look on his face was priceless. And
I parked it and I left. Yeah, and then he
called the tow truck. Yeah, and then I moved it, okay,
and he called for everything. So he's like a Susan
(16:03):
lawn everything. Yeah, my friend's left late at night. Then
they came back running in the house saying he's shooting
a bb gun at us.
Speaker 1 (16:08):
He shot a BB gun a friend.
Speaker 2 (16:10):
Yeah, and then I went out and he was shooting
a BB gun. So we called the police. This guy
was you couldn't when he moved, everyone celebrated. There was
a block party. Oh really, yes, he was terrible. So anyway,
the point is there are some people that no matter
what you do, yeah, everything, they will complain out.
Speaker 1 (16:25):
When Owens heard what Lorenz had done, so this is
the mom she and her ten year old son walked
to Lorenz's apartment and knocked on the door. Lorenz did
not open the door, but argued with Owens through the door. Instead,
Lorenz called nine one one at eight fifty four pm
and claimed the neighborhood children were trespassing on her property
and threatening her. Minutes later, without waiting for police to arrive,
(16:48):
Lorenz aimed her thirty eight caliber handgun through her locked
and dead bolted door and shot Owen's in the chest.
According to law enforcement, Owens was unarmed and her son
stood right next to her as she collapsed onto the floor.
She later died at the hospital. See this is where
this is where I and you can there's the real
(17:11):
footage of it. You can see the sun. I think
he's liked ten. He's reacting and he's yelling call nine
one one, and his mom's on the ground. The door's
bolted and locked. It's also I believe a steel door.
Speaker 2 (17:25):
Well, she's inside, she laid outside. The lady is not
trying to get inside. Knocking, is not trying to break
down a door. There's no history of violence, there's no history.
The only history is she calls the cops and they say,
we didn't do anything, and then that's it. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (17:40):
The only hit the history right, and the little bit
of history they do show is just the one incident
where a j Owens the mother had.
Speaker 2 (17:48):
Some words with her sign.
Speaker 1 (17:50):
Well, she said she threw a sign at her, But
the way the neighbors described it that actually witnessed it
was she just she pulled the no trespassing sign out
of the.
Speaker 2 (18:00):
And slammed it, tossed it behind her.
Speaker 1 (18:03):
She didn't aim at it.
Speaker 2 (18:05):
Was more of this trustedising sign does nothing and.
Speaker 1 (18:08):
Like like flippantly just threw it behind her. And actually
I was actually very impressed with her. When the police
came and they interviewed her and they were speaking to her,
she was very calm and like de escalated, you know
what I mean, Like she wasn't she wasn't acting aggressive.
Speaker 2 (18:26):
She wasn't she she she was like.
Speaker 1 (18:30):
She was like, you know, yeah, I did. I threw
it down, but I didn't throw it at her. And
she was like I understand, and you know, I mean
you could tell that she didn't. She wasn't a violent,
aggressive person.
Speaker 2 (18:42):
But it wasn't even the land because then I'm thinking, well,
then I would just tell my kids at that point,
you know what she's wrong, but just stay off her
grass that grass and play elsewhere, because it was there
was a lot of area. But it wasn't that it
was just noises or anything they were doing.
Speaker 1 (18:56):
It was anything. She even would She even claimed one
of the calls, she claim that they were trying to
put a dog in the back of her truck. Did
you remember that?
Speaker 2 (19:03):
And then the neighbors like, he can't even pick up
that dog.
Speaker 1 (19:06):
I saw the dogs. It's like a poodle, but it's
one of those huge ones, like a standard poodle or whatever,
like those big dogs. And she claimed that one of
the kids was trying to pick it up and put
it in the back of her truck. I think she
just made I mean she just made things up. When
Susan Lorenz was first questioned by investigators, Lorenz said she
thought she was in mortal danger. She claimed she heard
(19:28):
a j Owens yelling that she was going to kill her,
even though Owens was unarmed. Based on these statements, Lorenz
was released without charges. Okay, let's go back to stand
your ground law. We have to do a little bit.
Let's get into this lall a little bit so we
can have a discussion of this. So Florida enacted in
(19:49):
two thousand and five a stand your ground law, which
comes from the common law castle doctrine, which is the
right to defend your home, your property without fear of prosecution, right.
Speaker 2 (20:03):
Well without having to retreat, without having to run away.
My understanding is castle doctrine is it's your it has
to be your home, whether it's rented or own, doesn't matter,
if it's your residence. And then if you do not
have a duty to run away if someone comes in
your home, and if someone comes in your home, it's
presumed to be kind of a lethal threat, free to
(20:25):
use lethal force.
Speaker 1 (20:26):
So Florida's stand your Ground law expands on this. So
the stand your Ground law allows a person to use
deadly force for self defense in any place where they
have a legal right to be. So that's the expansion
of the castle doctrine. It's not just your own personal
dwelling now, it's if you're anywhere.
Speaker 2 (20:42):
We're I'm in my car, in my office at the
building or something.
Speaker 1 (20:47):
And also it's eliminated the duty to retreat. Florida was
first in the nation to adopt the law in two
thousand and five. So some of the key provisions of
the law is a person is justified in using deadly
force if they reason to believe it is necessary to
prevent eminent death or great bodily harm to themselves or another,
or to prevent the eminent commission of a forcible felony.
(21:11):
And there's no duty to retreat. So Susan Lorenz is
enacting the standard ground law immediately as a defense. Now
here's where it fails.
Speaker 2 (21:21):
It feels in lots of play.
Speaker 1 (21:22):
It fails in lots of ways. It fails because one,
there is no your neighbor has to be allowed to
come over and knock on your door. I knocked on
the neighbor's door across the street. Remember what you used
to have issues with our neighbor across the street, and
we had to go over and knock on the door
because they were out of line and they were like
yelling things and they were But I would never in
(21:44):
a million years think that when I go over there
and knock on the door because I have an issue
with a neighbor, that they're going to shoot me through
the door. And this mother who was going over to
talk to this woman about the issues with the children
and whether she took this tablet and the roller skate
and all those things that went down, she has every
right to knock on the woman's door and say did
you throw a roller skate and hit my kid? And
(22:06):
did you take his tablet away from him? That's a normal.
Speaker 2 (22:09):
Well, she's not trying to get inside. That's one problem.
You get to try to get inside that someone has
to be coming into your space, and Susan's not doing that.
Speaker 1 (22:18):
She knocking the door, she banged aggressively on the door.
Even if she did bang aggressively, I don't know. You
can't really hear it. That's the part that's not on
really on camera, so you don't see or hear like what.
Speaker 2 (22:32):
Actually that's still banging aggressively.
Speaker 1 (22:34):
But even coming over and knocking on the door.
Speaker 2 (22:36):
The only time I aggressively would make sense to assert
that stand your ground is it's some guy that's been
there multiple times and has beaten you in the past,
you know, like a boyfriend. So it's like, I have
every reason to believe he is trying to get inside
and beat me. This is like a neighbor. We just said, quick,
leave my kids alone. She's been saying that for however
(22:58):
long this has been going on. Right, they're allowed to play,
They're allowed to play. She never once was violent.
Speaker 1 (23:04):
No, she never distributed any violence. We know that she
doesn't have a firearm or anything as far as I know,
not no reason to believe.
Speaker 2 (23:11):
So.
Speaker 1 (23:12):
Also, the door is steel, I believe it's not a
wooden door. It's also dead bolted. So the fact that
she felt the need to pick up a firearm and
shoot through the door, and you know the son standing
right there, oh was there? She was right next to
his mother.
Speaker 2 (23:29):
Mom.
Speaker 1 (23:29):
Yes, she could have ended up shooting him just as
easily as she shot the mother.
Speaker 2 (23:36):
Yeah, both would be bad either.
Speaker 1 (23:39):
So in the standard ground law, the law provides immunity
from criminal prosecution and civil lawsuits for individuals who use
force and justifiable self defense. This includes a pre trial
hearing where prosecutors must prove by clear and convincing evidence
that the defendant's use of force was not lawful. Now,
I know that the community was up in arms that
(23:59):
she was not arrested immediately. And I did watch a
video an interview with the I guess chief of police
I think I forget his name, the sheriff after this
documentary came out, and he said, and it made sense,
according to this new standard ground law, that the burden
(24:20):
has shifted. So the person who claims self defense, the
burden isn't on them to prove that they were in
fear the probably the burden is on the prosecution and
the investigators to prove that the Standiard ground law doesn't apply.
So that's why he said they had to make sure
before making an arrest of this woman that because the
(24:43):
burden is on them to prove that that wasn't justifiable,
they had to do their due diligence and they had
to do their investigating and they had to dot their
i's and cross their t's and make sure everything was
in check before they arrested her and so that's why.
Speaker 2 (24:58):
I think I saw an interview with him not long
ago popped up and he was saying that we knew
from the beginning we wanted to arrest her. We knew
from the beginning there was no standyard ground defense, but
we had to do her homework to present it to
the prosecutor, you know, and all that. So he was like, no,
(25:19):
we knew we were meaning, we weren't doubting it. We
weren't skeptical, we weren't swaying one way or another. We knew.
We just had to do our homework exactly.
Speaker 1 (25:29):
And you know, it's good that they did, because if
they would have arrested her immediately without doing their due diligence,
you never know, a good defense attorney could have gotten
her all technical a technicality or something. So I know
that the community was very no.
Speaker 3 (25:43):
Yea.
Speaker 2 (25:43):
I took it like, no, we wanted to take her down.
So we spent four days preparing right exactly.
Speaker 1 (25:51):
Since Florida enacted the stand your ground law in two
thousand and five, there's been close to I think it's
thirty states to have passed similar standyard ground laws. Now,
these obviously come with controversies and impacts, So the law
has been the subject of ongoing debate and controversies since
its passage. There's been a lot of lobbying efforts. The
(26:13):
National Rifle Association heavily lobbied for the law, which has
since been adopted in various forms by many other states. However,
there has been an increase in homicide rates. Some studies
have linked to and your Ground laws to an increase
in homicides, particularly firearm related ones. And I did read
I read a couple examples, and this made sense to
me because it eliminated the duty to retreat. There wasn't
(26:37):
that element of having to de escalate. And there was
an example because.
Speaker 2 (26:41):
It used to be like if it could de escalate
by you leaving, but now it's more.
Speaker 1 (26:47):
Like you don't have to.
Speaker 2 (26:48):
No, well, that's the whole point of duty, right, There
is no duty. You just have to take care of yourself.
So if someone's posing a threat to you, that's lethal.
Speaker 1 (26:57):
Right. But I think the problem is and this is
where it's It looks good on paper or in you know,
in a statue, but then in practicality, I just I
read an example of like two people in a parking
lot who are both legally. There, they get in a
fight over some loud music, and they have the opportunity
to leave. You could if you're annoyed by the music,
(27:18):
you could just leave. There's a duty to but there's
no duty to retreat. So then they get in this
heated argument and someone pulls a gun.
Speaker 2 (27:24):
Well, then it's someone then instigator. If you're an instigator
in the incident, then you can't claim stand your ground.
I can't go punch someone in the face, right and
initiate an argument and a physical altercation, and then they
come after me and then I kill them. And I said, oh,
I was standing my ground. It's like, well, you initiated
the altercation. That's that destroys or eliminates the standard ground defense, right,
(27:52):
and that applied in this perfect neighbor scenario, because it
was arguable, and I think they succeeded in saying she
was an instigator. She was constantly calling the police, she
was constantly yelling at the kids, so she was inviting
this behavior.
Speaker 1 (28:07):
Well also, I believe I think I read in an
article that she had done research on stand your ground
prior to the Well, that's.
Speaker 2 (28:16):
The part She's like, let me see what my options are.
Speaker 1 (28:20):
When I was saying that in practicality on a piece
of paper, it sounds good, but when you actually put
it into practice, the problem is is that if people
are aware of the stand your ground law, then the
defense can always be I felt imminent fear. I'm just
saying she did research on the law. I think she
was looking it up. She terms to you, I was
(28:42):
fearful of my life. I thought she was going to
kill me.
Speaker 2 (28:46):
I thought she was going to She was looking at
what her options were to commit a crime against this lady.
Speaker 1 (28:52):
I mean, I mean, you could, at the end of
the day, you could even argue it was premeditated. She
had a gun close by, she stole the kid's tablet.
I don't know. I mean maybe she wanted it to
escalate to that point. I mean never, I would never
prosecute her as premeditated because you probably couldn't get a
jury to convict on premeditated. She was convicted on manslaughter.
But all right, So, four days after the shooting, deputies
(29:16):
conducted a second interview with Lorenz, during which she admitted
to researching sanyar ground and self defense laws in the
recent past. The Sheriff's office determined Lorenz's killing of a
j Owens was not justified under the law, and they
arrested her. Lorenz was charged with manslaughter with a firearm,
culpable negligence, battery, and two counts of assault. On July
(29:36):
tenth of twenty twenty three, Lorenz pleads not guilty to
all charges. She goes to trial, and then in August
sixteenth of twenty twenty four, a six person jury convicts
Susan Lorenz of manslaughter with a firearm after a week
long trial. Evidence includes her nine to one one calls,
witness accounts, and ballistics proving she fired through a closed,
(29:58):
locked door. I do also know during the trial. I mean,
there were character witnesses on her behalf, and there were
so many people that came forward and said they couldn't
see her being like that, and she was like heavily
involved in her church and very helpful.
Speaker 2 (30:12):
But yeah, well there's hours of bodycam footage that show otherwise,
right exactly, And I'll go with that.
Speaker 1 (30:18):
And you know what my other question was, And I
could not find this, and I don't know why I
couldn't find it. I wanted to know if she had
any children. My assumption would be no, or if she
was ever married, and I couldn't find anything. So I'm
just going to assume, based upon her actions and the
way she that she that she's very likable, that she's
(30:39):
never been married, and that she's never had any children.
Speaker 2 (30:42):
Or on the other hand, she might have been married
like three or four times and they've all had a
mysterious death.
Speaker 1 (30:47):
No, maybe all right. So then in November twenty fifth
of twenty twenty four, Lorenzo's sentenced to twenty five years
in prison. The judge deemed the shooting quote completely unnecessary
end quote, adding in this case, Miss Lorenz was behind
the door, the door was locked. She had already called
law enforcement. They were en route. She knew they were
(31:09):
en route. She was in a relatively safe position. For
some reason, she went into her room and found a gun.
She could have stayed in the room and put another
locked door between her and Miss Owens, but she came
back out, put herself in front of the door, and
at the time she fired the gun through the door,
she was safe. That was a good way, just to
break it down and make it very simple.
Speaker 2 (31:29):
She could have also returned the tablet.
Speaker 1 (31:31):
She could have answered the door and apologized.
Speaker 2 (31:34):
Yeah, that would have been a most person.
Speaker 1 (31:38):
Lorenz is serving her prison sentence at Homestead Correctional Institute
in South Florida, with a release date set for April
eighth of twenty forty eight. You know, there's one other thing.
Speaker 2 (31:48):
Old.
Speaker 1 (31:48):
Was she fifty eight fifty eight when I think when
the shooting occurred, So probably fifty nine to sixty by
the time there.
Speaker 2 (31:57):
For how many years she going to be in there?
Speaker 1 (31:59):
Well, we have to do math. Twenty forty eight, how
long is that from now? Twenty three years?
Speaker 2 (32:03):
Yeah, but you said twenty five years, So I just
didn't know if there was like twenty five years but eligible.
Speaker 1 (32:08):
For it, I mean, I guess she could still it.
She'd be like around eighty three or something. I don't
know if she'll be eligible.
Speaker 2 (32:12):
Let's see her stay in her ground, in her cell, right,
Let's see how well that goes exactly. She's going to
complain about the noise and the jail.
Speaker 1 (32:20):
You know, I'll tell you again when I was rude
awakening when I watched True crime. Obviously there's never a
happy ending in true crime, but this documentary really affected me,
like I sobbed.
Speaker 2 (32:32):
I couldn't finish it once the police were called for
the murder, you know, and then they had to tell
the dad that, you know, the mother of his children died,
and he you know, almost fell down in tears. I mean,
I didn't I don't know. I just didn't feel there
was much for me to learn, and watching the rest
of that and it was kind of heartbreaking.
Speaker 1 (32:51):
So it was really heartbreaking.
Speaker 2 (32:52):
It was really emotional, and I was as mad at
the neighbor.
Speaker 1 (32:56):
Yeah, so you just this is mad at her. Yeah,
I will. You should be, as anyone should be. But
the part that was just so heartbreaking was that this
documentary gives you I realized that I've never seen a real,
a real scenario where exactly unfolding in real time, where
(33:20):
she's shot, they're trying to revive her, they're doing everything
possible they can. Before the ambulance arrives. The children are there,
this Izzy is at the neighbor's house, and he's an
emotional mess. And I kept thinking about my boys because
he's like, he's like ten or eleven, he's like around
(33:42):
the same age as our boys. And then the dad
shows up quickly.
Speaker 2 (33:47):
And then immediately comes to learn and then she didn't survive.
Now he has to deal with all this and try
to comfort the children, right, So then he.
Speaker 1 (33:56):
Has to find all four of the children and he
pulls all four over to the side, and this dad
has to tell his for children.
Speaker 2 (34:03):
In the show, that's all.
Speaker 1 (34:04):
There, all of it. It's all on bodycam footage. And
he pulls all four children in and has to tell
them that their mother did not survive. And it was
the most heartbreaking.
Speaker 2 (34:18):
I basically gave because of the scenario, not because of
the dad. There was no hope because if it's like
she's going to hospital or do everything we can, then
at least the kids can hold on to something. But
it was like, no, there's not even anything to hope
for now it's over.
Speaker 1 (34:31):
No, it was just it was it was heartbreaking. It
was I was sobbing.
Speaker 2 (34:35):
Well, now I think about it. Then they had to
live with the neighbors still for four days. I mean,
I'm sure they went to the dad's house and all lot,
but I mean, like that then knowing for however many
days that then all the neighbors know that she's still there.
Why isn't she arrested even though we know they were
doing their homework.
Speaker 1 (34:49):
I don't think she went back to that apartment though.
I don't know where she went after the.
Speaker 2 (34:51):
Sh Karen or the Karen.
Speaker 1 (34:53):
Yeah, her name was Susan, but the kids called her
the Karen. Yeah. Anyway, I was just that was so
just raw and emotional for me to watch those children.
I realize I've never seen anything like that in real
time and not like a depiction or someoney acting. It
(35:13):
was like those children really learned that right then. So
what other national cases have used the Stanyard ground law. Well,
when we were doing a little research on this, we
realized that Trayvon Martin and George Zimmerman. Do you remember
that case from back in twenty twelve.
Speaker 2 (35:34):
Yeah, that was like an hoa security guarden, Yeah, security
guard or.
Speaker 1 (35:37):
Something unlike Susan Lorenz. George Zimmerman was not charged for
the death of Trayvon Martin because investigators found that he
was within the bounds of the Stanyard Ground Law when
he shot Trayvon Martin in twenty twelve. So, in February
twenty twelve, Trayvon Martin was a seventeen year old black
teenager and he was visiting his father, Tracy Martin, in Stanford, Florida,
(35:58):
after receiving a ten day suspension and from Crop Senior
High School. George Zimmerman was a twenty eight year old
volunteer neighborhood Watch captain for the retreat at Twin Lakes
Gated community in Sanford, Florida, and this was at the
time of the shooting. Trayvon was walking home from a
convenience store when Zimmerman, who claimed he looked suspicious, followed
(36:20):
him and called nine one one. Despite being told by
dispatchers not to pursue, Zimmerman went ahead and confronted Martin.
A struggle ensued, and Zimmerman shot Martin once in the chest,
killing him.
Speaker 2 (36:33):
So he approached.
Speaker 1 (36:34):
He approached after being told not.
Speaker 2 (36:37):
I forgot about that part.
Speaker 1 (36:40):
Zimmerman claimed self defense, saying Martin attacked him and that
he feared for his life. Florida's Staniard Ground law became
central to both the legal proceedings and the national debate.
Although Zimmerman didn't formally invoke the law during trial, it
influenced the police's initial decision not to arrest him for
several weeks as they accepted his self defense claim under
(37:01):
its protection. The case sparked massive public outrage and protests
across the country, leading to renewed scrutiny of stanyard ground
laws and their disproportionate impact on racial minorities. In July
of twenty thirteen, George Zimmerman was acquitted of second degree
murder and manslaughter, with jurors concluding the prosecution hadn't disproven
(37:24):
his self defense claim because remember, the prosecution has the
burden and the standiard ground to prove that it wasn't
a standard ground. But there was no reasonable you know, fear.
Speaker 2 (37:34):
Yeah, once you claim the defense, the burden shifts to
the prosecutor to show otherwise. Right when you told me
how the police instructed him to stay away, yeah, and
then and then he didn't.
Speaker 1 (37:48):
Right.
Speaker 2 (37:49):
So now I'm thinking, well, because I know in Florida
that's one of the things is you can't be an
instigator like he went and asked for trouble.
Speaker 1 (37:56):
Right. And it also makes me wonder because also part
of the law is that you have to legally be
allowed to be where you are.
Speaker 2 (38:03):
Was he on duty security guard?
Speaker 1 (38:05):
He was. He was like a volunteer, like a neighborhood
watch volunteer type of security.
Speaker 2 (38:10):
So some organized way, but I was there, right.
Speaker 1 (38:12):
But I'm saying I'm saying you can make the argument
because the police or because he was warned not to
coach him that that I don't know.
Speaker 2 (38:23):
Maybe I want to feel the need to approach him
though if the cops are on their way.
Speaker 1 (38:27):
I don't know. It's the same thing with the susan lawrence.
Speaker 2 (38:30):
If someone's trying to break into my home or something,
or I'm seeing him down the street and I call
and report it and say you need to come there's
someone breaking into his home, and then they're like, Okay, yeah,
stay where you are, don't go there, we have someone reporting.
Why would I feel the need to like approach the suspect.
I'm at most I would want to just kind of
(38:52):
keep tabs on where they are once they don't approach me,
or I can tell the police when they get here
that he moved over there. But I wouldn't feel the need.
Some people, well, I don't know.
Speaker 1 (39:01):
Well, that was my point in the whole when they
how they stand your ground walls have eliminated the duty
to retreat part. I feel like it's led to more violence.
Instead of having the mindset that if you can de escalate,
you have a duty to de escalate. He he had time,
the ability to de escalate. He just didn't.
Speaker 2 (39:21):
He called yes, way, nothing even happened. He could have
state where he was.
Speaker 1 (39:24):
That's what I'm saying.
Speaker 2 (39:25):
And so I wasn't even to de escalate. It was
a keep it as a non criminal scenario.
Speaker 1 (39:30):
That's my point. Yeah, just let the police come and yeah,
question him and then he would still be alive.
Speaker 2 (39:38):
And yeah, here we are. That was a big deal.
I remember on that that was out.
Speaker 1 (39:44):
Oh yeah, that was huge. I remember it too, back
in twenty twelve.
Speaker 2 (39:46):
Because you had minors, uh, you had someone that was
playing cop, you had a race in there. It was
just a lot of things profiling right.
Speaker 1 (39:59):
What does the public have to say about stand your
ground laws? So, gun right supporters argue people should not
have to try and retreat before defending themselves.
Speaker 2 (40:07):
Gun right supporters support shooting a gun.
Speaker 1 (40:10):
This was said by Alan Gottlieb, who is the founder
of the Second Amendment Foundation. He pointed to a Florida
homeowner who recently shot and killed a man suspected of
shooting a police officer as the man tried to break
into his house. While that case could have been covered
by other self defense laws. Gottlieb said, stand your ground
laws offer reassurance. It's made a very big difference in
(40:31):
self defense situations, he said. Gun control activists say the
increasing presence of guns and laws like stanyard ground are
a deadly combination. Representative Lucy Macbeth, who entered politics after
her son was slain at a Florida gas station in
twenty twelve by a white man who was angry over
the loud music playing in the black teenager's car. This
(40:52):
is the case I was telling you about. Said, laws
like stanyard ground or shoot first laws give people like
Jordan's killer, my Son's hill, or the idea that you
can shoot first and ask questions later. Michael Dunn used
to stand your ground law and his defense, but was
convicted and is serving a life sentence. So Michael Dunn
is the one that shot the teenager. And that's what
(41:12):
I was talking about earlier when I was saying I
read about a case, it was this one. It was
where you can de escalate the situation by leaving. If
his music is bothering you, you can get in your
car and you can drive away. It doesn't have to
get to the point of a stand your ground defense
if you can de escalate, And the problem is is
that it took away that duty to retreat that you're just.
Speaker 2 (41:34):
Yeah, I just don't know if that's what popped in
this person's head.
Speaker 1 (41:37):
I don't know what popped into their head, but it didn't.
In his case, it didn't work. He was convicted and
is serving a life sentence. So I mean, that's a
scenario where it doesn't work.
Speaker 2 (41:46):
It.
Speaker 1 (41:46):
I mean it it's beneficial in cases where it's very
clear cut that your life is in jeopardy and you
have the right to defend yourself. But in so many
other cases where it's like they're in a parking lot
and he's playing loud music and there's an altercation, or
the Susan Lorenz case or the Trayvon Martin, it's not
that clear cut. There's other ways to de escalate. There's
(42:09):
ways that it could have been handled differently.
Speaker 2 (42:12):
I think that the standard ground do you retreating? All that,
only it correctly applies when someone's really just reacting properly,
like someone's busting in my home, so I applot it
again and I shoot them, not when they think.
Speaker 1 (42:24):
All right, Thanks guys for listening again, let me know
your opinions on stand your Ground or any of these
cases that we discuss. Also if there's any other cases
that you would like us to discuss. I love it
when you guys always have recommendations. I truly appreciate it,
so please feel free to DM me and again, make
sure you follow us on our own feed legally Brunette,
make sure you leave a review and make sure you're
(42:45):
following because that's where all of our episodes will be
going forward. So thanks so much, guys, Thank you,
Hi guys, welcome to a new episode of Legally Brunette.
I will be your host today Emily Simpson with my
sidekick Shane Shane. First of all, just a reminder if
you guys have been listening to us on the two
t's network, we have now moved over to our own feed,
So if you want to continue to enjoy all of
the Legally Brunette episodes, which will be weekly, please come
(00:23):
and find us and follow us and leave a review
and listen to us there. Anyway, last week we went
into the murdaw murders, which I a couple of people
dm me and said that you're supposed to pronounce it
murder doc.
Speaker 2 (00:35):
I was about to tell you that, yeah, like with
a c K. I thought, well, I don't know. They
said c K like Murdoc but the murdering man.
Speaker 1 (00:44):
Okay, So anyway, I think down in the South they
say Murdoc just like his name was Alex with an X,
but they pronounced.
Speaker 2 (00:51):
It the past other worries.
Speaker 1 (00:54):
Yeah that is, But anyway, I just wanted to do
just a little bit more info on them. So the
infamous hunting lodge where Alex Murdoch murdered his wife and
son is now up for sale. It was in a
Daily Mail article the South Carolina Mozella estate that previously
belonged to Alex Murdoch is struggling to sell despite stunning
(01:16):
new renovations. The home was last sold for one million
in February of twenty twenty four to a businessman named
Alex Blair of Rockville, who bought the forty eight acre
property at an auction. It's actually a seventeen hundred eight
property sold out, but yeah, they've obviously He's.
Speaker 2 (01:35):
Like, you can have the part with all the blood
and brain splatter, Yes, and I'll keep th rest. That's
what he did.
Speaker 1 (01:42):
He has now placed it back on the market, but
it appears not even a sweeping makeover is enough to
erase the mansion's past. The approximately fifty three hundred square
foot home has now been listed for fifty days at
two point two million, but no buyers have taken the bait.
I don't know which you want to live somewhere where
someone was murdered? No?
Speaker 2 (02:02):
Never, No land like that should be flattened and reconstructed.
Speaker 1 (02:07):
So you think a million dollar renovation like just you're
just covering up.
Speaker 2 (02:12):
Yes me, I don't know what the market says. That's me.
Maybe people down there. Maybe there's a lot of homes
there where there's hunting accidents.
Speaker 1 (02:20):
A lot of hunting accidents. I don't know. I mean
it is a little creepy. I don't know if I
could live some I don't think I could ever live.
Speaker 2 (02:26):
You have to legally disclose if someone died. Oh yeah,
of course in California. I don't know.
Speaker 1 (02:30):
Well this property, I mean clearly everyone everyone knows. I
mean there's people taking field trips there and taking pictures
of it.
Speaker 2 (02:39):
So.
Speaker 1 (02:40):
Photos shared by listing agency brown Land Plantation Advisors show
the recently expanded four bedroom, five bathroom plantation style of state.
Since it sits on a whopping forty eight acres, which
is significantly smaller than its original seventeen one hundred, there's
plenty of room for riding trails. The realtor this estate
(03:01):
is an exceptional blend of luxury, privacy and functionality, ideal
for those seeking a country lifestyle with peak aboo views,
I mean, with space to entertain.
Speaker 2 (03:16):
Please come look at as featured on snap and in
the courtrooms.
Speaker 1 (03:22):
Oh yes, so what see you were making me laugh?
Space entertain or simply enjoy the stunning low country landscape.
Despite the damning evidence against Murdoch, Alex Blair came forward
last year in an attempt to clear the socialite turn
murderer's name. He told realtor dot com and back in
October of twenty twenty four that he tore down the
(03:43):
kennel well. The kennel was gone, that's where the murders
took place, but still possesses the kennel door and window
that contained the bullet holes from the June twenty twenty
one shooting well, so he held on to evidence. He said,
the placement of the bullet holes in the door suggests
that Murdoch did not kill them. I don't know how
that suggests that he didn't kill them. Murdoch is a
(04:06):
big man, he was even bigger back then, and he's
too big for the bullets to have gone through and
the way they did. He explained. Maybe it was karma
for other things that he did, but I don't think
he killed them. He added that anyone would be hard
pressed to find a property in South Carolina's low Country
without a blemish. Oh well, this is what you were saying.
There's probably a lot of hunting accidents and the property
down there, and with.
Speaker 2 (04:26):
Forty eight acres, if you just flatten it the home
and then you can build anywhere. I mean to, It's
not like it's one little lot where you have to
build it the same way, same entrance, same everything. This
is forty eight acres. You could build anywhere.
Speaker 1 (04:39):
You're saying, make it look completely different.
Speaker 2 (04:40):
Yeah, it would be. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (04:41):
Yeah. There was also one more thing about Murdoch, and
I meant to mention this when we did it in
our previous episode. You know, we were talking about motive
and why he might have killed his wife and son,
and we went into a motive a little bit, and
I forgot to mention that, allegedly, I don't know if
it's true because I don't think anyone could confirm it,
but that there were rumblings that his wife had gone
(05:02):
to meet with a divorce attorney. Oh and so.
Speaker 2 (05:05):
So that didn't help her situation with So.
Speaker 1 (05:07):
That is another thing that could have been a motive,
because what it's always.
Speaker 2 (05:11):
Well, then he would lose the money which is used
for his drug addiction.
Speaker 1 (05:14):
Is it's normally cheaper to keep her. But I guess
in his mind it's cheaper to murder her.
Speaker 2 (05:20):
I guess, so if you would like to leave me,
I will give you thirty days notice. Just go. That
is correct, Just go. Yes, no, you leave, I'm not leaving.
You leave.
Speaker 3 (05:36):
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your podcast.
Speaker 1 (06:36):
All right, we're gonna move on to the Perfect Neighbor,
the Susan Lawrence. That's the woman that is. She called
herself the perfect neighbor. That's why they called it that.
Speaker 2 (06:46):
She called herself the perfect neighbor.
Speaker 1 (06:48):
Yes, she in one of the phone calls to the
police that they had recorded, and.
Speaker 2 (06:55):
I thought it was this pure sarcasm from the no.
Speaker 1 (06:58):
She literally said to the please, I'm the perfect neighbor.
Like I'm just this, you know kind.
Speaker 2 (07:05):
She's a single. She was laughing stuck at the police
station that doesn't know thereby called all the time.
Speaker 1 (07:11):
I know, all right, let's just go and go over
briefly this case. If you haven't watched it yet, it's
on Netflix. It's been out for like, I don't know,
just a week now, but everyone's talking about it. In
June of twenty twenty three, Susan Lorenz fatally shot her
neighbor A gk aj Owens and Okalla, Florida, after a
long running dispute that began over neighborhood children playing near
(07:32):
her home. Lorenz had repeatedly called nine one one and
filed complaints claiming the children were loud, trespassing, and threatening her.
On June second of twenty twenty three, A j Owens
went to Lawrence's locked front door to confront her. Lorenz
fired a gun through the door, striking Owens, who later
died at the hospital. Lorenz claimed self defense under Florida's
(07:53):
stand your ground law, saying she feared for her life.
This twenty twenty five Netflix documentary explores the events leading
up to the tragedy and its aftermath. Using body cam footage,
nine to one one recordings, security videos, and first hand interviews,
The film traces how a seemingly ordinary neighborhood feud escalated
into deadly violence. It examines the broader context of race
(08:17):
sphere in Florida's self defense laws, questioning how biases and
systematic issues contribute to such outcomes. The documentary also humanizes
aj Owens, a devoted mother of four, and highlights the
devastating impact her death had on her family and on
the community. And we're going to go into more detail,
but I will tell you when I watched it the most,
(08:40):
I think the hard Obviously, I watch true crime all
the time. I don't watch housewives, I don't watch reality TV.
I watch true crime and I've never I don't know
when you watch true crime, like you know the ending
isn't good right, well.
Speaker 2 (08:53):
You typically know the ending always sometimes like nightline or
Dateline will be right. Kind of a mystery.
Speaker 1 (09:00):
But the thing that was so compelling about this documentary
is that the entire story is told through real footage.
They they I don't know, and there's really nothing else
other than they put together all all of this to
tell a story. And so you're watching it and you
(09:21):
feel like you're in it. You feel like you live
in the neighborhood because you keep seeing the same.
Speaker 2 (09:25):
Houses, the same on the same street, same kids.
Speaker 1 (09:28):
Same street, the same the police officers keep coming. Like
you literally feel like you're immersed into this neighborhood and
into these families and into these children.
Speaker 2 (09:36):
Which actually seemed like a pleasant neighborhood.
Speaker 1 (09:38):
It actually did.
Speaker 2 (09:39):
I was like always out playing. They were all neighbors,
they're all friendly, They're all playing games on each other's lawns,
running up and down the street, and.
Speaker 1 (09:46):
I kept thinking about how our kids would love to
live in a neighborhood, like that they would have so
much fun. They'd be outside all the time and like
playing with all the other kids. All right, let's go
into I. You know, after I watched it, I wanted
to find out more about Susan Larenz because there was
a part, do you remember. There was a part when
the police came and she came to the door and
they were like, is your name Susan Lorenz or something
(10:06):
like that, and she was like yes, and then she
said it's doctor Susan Lawrence. And I'm like, a doctor.
This woman's a doctor.
Speaker 2 (10:12):
Doctor crazy.
Speaker 1 (10:13):
So I googled trying to find because I was like,
there's no way this woman is a doctor. There is
nothing about her being a doctor. I don't know why
she said that. I think it just lends to like
that's clear.
Speaker 2 (10:25):
She said that.
Speaker 1 (10:26):
She said it, Yeah, she said it. She said she
said like he like she was correct him. She was
correcting it, like she was offended that he didn't call
her doctor Susan Lorenz. But the only thing I could
find was that in her trial, people testified, you know,
and it just came up that she'd had different jobs.
And I think currently because she said she worked from home.
(10:48):
She was doing some kind of insurance work. I don't know.
I think she had a license, maybe an insurance license.
Maybe she was a claims adjuster or something something you
can do from home, right from a phone and a computer.
And then I guess previously she'd worked as a chef
for something and that was really it. So it's she's
not a doctor. So I don't know why she said that,
(11:09):
other than it just lends to her delusional state of mind.
Speaker 2 (11:14):
So it's kind of self centered, kind of I think
she's all knowing or whatever, right, self righteous.
Speaker 1 (11:20):
So this begins back in January of twenty twenty one,
Susan Lorenz, who was a fifty eight year old white woman,
made half a dozen calls to nine to one to
one complaining about the children in her neighborhood, sometimes concerning
aj Owens, four young children who are black. As Lorenz
got more irritated with the children, she'd place no trespassing
signs in an open field located near her rental apartment,
(11:43):
file police reports about them, and yell racial slurs at them.
Lorenz even allegedly waived guns at them, according to NBC News,
and this is also according to the kids. I know
in interviews they would say that witnesses reported, and Lorenz
also acknowledged that she assaulted the children with racial insults,
called Owen's children the N word. I can't even it's
(12:04):
even hard for me to even say that. I can't
imagine a I just it's so disturbing to me. One,
the woman clearly hates children.
Speaker 2 (12:14):
Well, people in general, or people.
Speaker 1 (12:17):
She's clearly racist. I mean, she's clearly a menace to society.
But my question is, I don't understand why this woman
moved into that neighborhood in the first place.
Speaker 2 (12:26):
Probably no matter where she's lived most of her life,
this is how she is. Yeah, it's like she can't
get away from people, so she's just gonna complain no
matter what neighborhood she's in.
Speaker 1 (12:35):
Right. So, on June second of twenty twenty three, an
argument breaks out after Lorenz allegedly throws a pair of
roller skates and swings an umbrella at two of Owen's
children who are playing in the field near her apartment. Okay,
let's just break down this field a little bit. Because
she rents her space, and her rental unit does not
(12:55):
have a yard attached to it.
Speaker 2 (12:57):
Now it's all common kind of areas.
Speaker 1 (12:59):
It's common area, but then this grassy area is not
attached to any of the apartment.
Speaker 2 (13:05):
No, that's why if you look at the apartment, there's
like a little kind of closed off area to walk
to the patio in the front door. I figured that
was kind of a way of saying, this is belongs
to this house, so people wouldn't walk into that area.
But you're walking in the common grass and the quote
unquote front yard area. But then it has this kind
of bordered off, half closed area, which I figured was
(13:27):
the only way to distinguish that's her property, like stay
off that.
Speaker 1 (13:31):
Lot, right, but this open area that's on the outside
of her first game is a common area game.
Speaker 2 (13:38):
That's what I'm saying. Yeah, the way it was done
was there's all this open field grass area in front
of all these structures, and if you looked, each structure
had like we out of four walls. Yeah, so you
could walk through a little narrow strip to get into
the patio. And that's the way they designated like personal property.
Speaker 1 (13:57):
Right exactly. But this open space area, the way I
understand it, the person that actually owns the open space area,
the landlord of whatever that land is gave the children
permission to play there, and so the problem is is
that she's mad that these kids are playing in this
open space area even though they've been given permission to
play there, and then she takes it upon herself to put.
Speaker 2 (14:20):
And she would have complained.
Speaker 1 (14:21):
That is true. Yes, I just find it interesting that
she takes it upon herself to put no trespassing signs
on an area that does not even belong to her,
that she doesn't have any ownership or or title to,
and she still is like putting trust no trespassing signs
out there. Let's go back to what we were talking about.
So the children are playing in the field near her apartment.
(14:42):
Allegedly she took some roller skates and threw some roller
skates and swings an umbrella, and I don't know, there's
all kinds of craziness going on. They also keep saying,
and this doesn't show up in some of the articles
I read. But there's also the issue of she allegedly
stole like a like an iPad tablet from one of
the kids.
Speaker 2 (15:01):
I had a neighbor similar. He was crazy anything, you
couldn't do anything. We were hanging Christmas lights, and he
called the police to complain.
Speaker 1 (15:10):
Wait, what neighborhood was this?
Speaker 2 (15:11):
This is my parents' neighborhood. It's actually neighborhood we lived
right now. Yeah, this is in the nineties. Yeah, and
he did everything he could.
Speaker 1 (15:19):
Wait, he called the police because you were hiding.
Speaker 2 (15:21):
Parks on the curb side in front of his house.
And he called the police, and he called a tow truck.
And I was parked on open area like it was legal.
Wasn't public, but yeah, oh yeah yeah. So then I
got really upset. I never told you this, I don't know.
So I took my truck and I parked it on
his lawn. I said, okay, fine, I'll move it. And
(15:43):
I grabbed my truck and I drove it up onto
his lawn and my lights were shining into his front
windows and the look on his face was priceless. And
I parked it and I left. Yeah, and then he
called the tow truck. Yeah, and then I moved it, okay,
and he called for everything. So he's like a Susan
(16:03):
lawn everything. Yeah, my friend's left late at night. Then
they came back running in the house saying he's shooting
a bb gun at us.
Speaker 1 (16:08):
He shot a BB gun a friend.
Speaker 2 (16:10):
Yeah, and then I went out and he was shooting
a BB gun. So we called the police. This guy
was you couldn't when he moved, everyone celebrated. There was
a block party. Oh really, yes, he was terrible. So anyway,
the point is there are some people that no matter
what you do, yeah, everything, they will complain out.
Speaker 1 (16:25):
When Owens heard what Lorenz had done, so this is
the mom she and her ten year old son walked
to Lorenz's apartment and knocked on the door. Lorenz did
not open the door, but argued with Owens through the door. Instead,
Lorenz called nine one one at eight fifty four pm
and claimed the neighborhood children were trespassing on her property
and threatening her. Minutes later, without waiting for police to arrive,
(16:48):
Lorenz aimed her thirty eight caliber handgun through her locked
and dead bolted door and shot Owen's in the chest.
According to law enforcement, Owens was unarmed and her son
stood right next to her as she collapsed onto the floor.
She later died at the hospital. See this is where
this is where I and you can there's the real
(17:11):
footage of it. You can see the sun. I think
he's liked ten. He's reacting and he's yelling call nine
one one, and his mom's on the ground. The door's
bolted and locked. It's also I believe a steel door.
Speaker 2 (17:25):
Well, she's inside, she laid outside. The lady is not
trying to get inside. Knocking, is not trying to break
down a door. There's no history of violence, there's no history.
The only history is she calls the cops and they say,
we didn't do anything, and then that's it. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (17:40):
The only hit the history right, and the little bit
of history they do show is just the one incident
where a j Owens the mother had.
Speaker 2 (17:48):
Some words with her sign.
Speaker 1 (17:50):
Well, she said she threw a sign at her, But
the way the neighbors described it that actually witnessed it
was she just she pulled the no trespassing sign out
of the.
Speaker 2 (18:00):
And slammed it, tossed it behind her.
Speaker 1 (18:03):
She didn't aim at it.
Speaker 2 (18:05):
Was more of this trustedising sign does nothing and.
Speaker 1 (18:08):
Like like flippantly just threw it behind her. And actually
I was actually very impressed with her. When the police
came and they interviewed her and they were speaking to her,
she was very calm and like de escalated, you know
what I mean, Like she wasn't she wasn't acting aggressive.
Speaker 2 (18:26):
She wasn't she she she was like.
Speaker 1 (18:30):
She was like, you know, yeah, I did. I threw
it down, but I didn't throw it at her. And
she was like I understand, and you know, I mean
you could tell that she didn't. She wasn't a violent,
aggressive person.
Speaker 2 (18:42):
But it wasn't even the land because then I'm thinking, well,
then I would just tell my kids at that point,
you know what she's wrong, but just stay off her
grass that grass and play elsewhere, because it was there
was a lot of area. But it wasn't that it
was just noises or anything they were doing.
Speaker 1 (18:56):
It was anything. She even would She even claimed one
of the calls, she claim that they were trying to
put a dog in the back of her truck. Did
you remember that?
Speaker 2 (19:03):
And then the neighbors like, he can't even pick up
that dog.
Speaker 1 (19:06):
I saw the dogs. It's like a poodle, but it's
one of those huge ones, like a standard poodle or whatever,
like those big dogs. And she claimed that one of
the kids was trying to pick it up and put
it in the back of her truck. I think she
just made I mean she just made things up. When
Susan Lorenz was first questioned by investigators, Lorenz said she
thought she was in mortal danger. She claimed she heard
(19:28):
a j Owens yelling that she was going to kill her,
even though Owens was unarmed. Based on these statements, Lorenz
was released without charges. Okay, let's go back to stand
your ground law. We have to do a little bit.
Let's get into this lall a little bit so we
can have a discussion of this. So Florida enacted in
(19:49):
two thousand and five a stand your ground law, which
comes from the common law castle doctrine, which is the
right to defend your home, your property without fear of prosecution, right.
Speaker 2 (20:03):
Well without having to retreat, without having to run away.
My understanding is castle doctrine is it's your it has
to be your home, whether it's rented or own, doesn't matter,
if it's your residence. And then if you do not
have a duty to run away if someone comes in
your home, and if someone comes in your home, it's
presumed to be kind of a lethal threat, free to
(20:25):
use lethal force.
Speaker 1 (20:26):
So Florida's stand your Ground law expands on this. So
the stand your Ground law allows a person to use
deadly force for self defense in any place where they
have a legal right to be. So that's the expansion
of the castle doctrine. It's not just your own personal
dwelling now, it's if you're anywhere.
Speaker 2 (20:42):
We're I'm in my car, in my office at the
building or something.
Speaker 1 (20:47):
And also it's eliminated the duty to retreat. Florida was
first in the nation to adopt the law in two
thousand and five. So some of the key provisions of
the law is a person is justified in using deadly
force if they reason to believe it is necessary to
prevent eminent death or great bodily harm to themselves or another,
or to prevent the eminent commission of a forcible felony.
(21:11):
And there's no duty to retreat. So Susan Lorenz is
enacting the standard ground law immediately as a defense. Now
here's where it fails.
Speaker 2 (21:21):
It feels in lots of play.
Speaker 1 (21:22):
It fails in lots of ways. It fails because one,
there is no your neighbor has to be allowed to
come over and knock on your door. I knocked on
the neighbor's door across the street. Remember what you used
to have issues with our neighbor across the street, and
we had to go over and knock on the door
because they were out of line and they were like
yelling things and they were But I would never in
(21:44):
a million years think that when I go over there
and knock on the door because I have an issue
with a neighbor, that they're going to shoot me through
the door. And this mother who was going over to
talk to this woman about the issues with the children
and whether she took this tablet and the roller skate
and all those things that went down, she has every
right to knock on the woman's door and say did
you throw a roller skate and hit my kid? And
(22:06):
did you take his tablet away from him? That's a normal.
Speaker 2 (22:09):
Well, she's not trying to get inside. That's one problem.
You get to try to get inside that someone has
to be coming into your space, and Susan's not doing that.
Speaker 1 (22:18):
She knocking the door, she banged aggressively on the door.
Even if she did bang aggressively, I don't know. You
can't really hear it. That's the part that's not on
really on camera, so you don't see or hear like what.
Speaker 2 (22:32):
Actually that's still banging aggressively.
Speaker 1 (22:34):
But even coming over and knocking on the door.
Speaker 2 (22:36):
The only time I aggressively would make sense to assert
that stand your ground is it's some guy that's been
there multiple times and has beaten you in the past,
you know, like a boyfriend. So it's like, I have
every reason to believe he is trying to get inside
and beat me. This is like a neighbor. We just said, quick,
leave my kids alone. She's been saying that for however
(22:58):
long this has been going on. Right, they're allowed to play,
They're allowed to play. She never once was violent.
Speaker 1 (23:04):
No, she never distributed any violence. We know that she
doesn't have a firearm or anything as far as I know,
not no reason to believe.
Speaker 2 (23:11):
So.
Speaker 1 (23:12):
Also, the door is steel, I believe it's not a
wooden door. It's also dead bolted. So the fact that
she felt the need to pick up a firearm and
shoot through the door, and you know the son standing
right there, oh was there? She was right next to
his mother.
Speaker 2 (23:29):
Mom.
Speaker 1 (23:29):
Yes, she could have ended up shooting him just as
easily as she shot the mother.
Speaker 2 (23:36):
Yeah, both would be bad either.
Speaker 1 (23:39):
So in the standard ground law, the law provides immunity
from criminal prosecution and civil lawsuits for individuals who use
force and justifiable self defense. This includes a pre trial
hearing where prosecutors must prove by clear and convincing evidence
that the defendant's use of force was not lawful. Now,
I know that the community was up in arms that
(23:59):
she was not arrested immediately. And I did watch a
video an interview with the I guess chief of police
I think I forget his name, the sheriff after this
documentary came out, and he said, and it made sense,
according to this new standard ground law, that the burden
(24:20):
has shifted. So the person who claims self defense, the
burden isn't on them to prove that they were in
fear the probably the burden is on the prosecution and
the investigators to prove that the Standiard ground law doesn't apply.
So that's why he said they had to make sure
before making an arrest of this woman that because the
(24:43):
burden is on them to prove that that wasn't justifiable,
they had to do their due diligence and they had
to do their investigating and they had to dot their
i's and cross their t's and make sure everything was
in check before they arrested her and so that's why.
Speaker 2 (24:58):
I think I saw an interview with him not long
ago popped up and he was saying that we knew
from the beginning we wanted to arrest her. We knew
from the beginning there was no standyard ground defense, but
we had to do her homework to present it to
the prosecutor, you know, and all that. So he was like, no,
(25:19):
we knew we were meaning, we weren't doubting it. We
weren't skeptical, we weren't swaying one way or another. We knew.
We just had to do our homework exactly.
Speaker 1 (25:29):
And you know, it's good that they did, because if
they would have arrested her immediately without doing their due diligence,
you never know, a good defense attorney could have gotten
her all technical a technicality or something. So I know
that the community was very no.
Speaker 3 (25:43):
Yea.
Speaker 2 (25:43):
I took it like, no, we wanted to take her down.
So we spent four days preparing right exactly.
Speaker 1 (25:51):
Since Florida enacted the stand your ground law in two
thousand and five, there's been close to I think it's
thirty states to have passed similar standyard ground laws. Now,
these obviously come with controversies and impacts, So the law
has been the subject of ongoing debate and controversies since
its passage. There's been a lot of lobbying efforts. The
(26:13):
National Rifle Association heavily lobbied for the law, which has
since been adopted in various forms by many other states. However,
there has been an increase in homicide rates. Some studies
have linked to and your Ground laws to an increase
in homicides, particularly firearm related ones. And I did read
I read a couple examples, and this made sense to
me because it eliminated the duty to retreat. There wasn't
(26:37):
that element of having to de escalate. And there was
an example because.
Speaker 2 (26:41):
It used to be like if it could de escalate
by you leaving, but now it's more.
Speaker 1 (26:47):
Like you don't have to.
Speaker 2 (26:48):
No, well, that's the whole point of duty, right, There
is no duty. You just have to take care of yourself.
So if someone's posing a threat to you, that's lethal.
Speaker 1 (26:57):
Right. But I think the problem is and this is
where it's It looks good on paper or in you know,
in a statue, but then in practicality, I just I
read an example of like two people in a parking
lot who are both legally. There, they get in a
fight over some loud music, and they have the opportunity
to leave. You could if you're annoyed by the music,
(27:18):
you could just leave. There's a duty to but there's
no duty to retreat. So then they get in this
heated argument and someone pulls a gun.
Speaker 2 (27:24):
Well, then it's someone then instigator. If you're an instigator
in the incident, then you can't claim stand your ground.
I can't go punch someone in the face, right and
initiate an argument and a physical altercation, and then they
come after me and then I kill them. And I said, oh,
I was standing my ground. It's like, well, you initiated
the altercation. That's that destroys or eliminates the standard ground defense, right,
(27:52):
and that applied in this perfect neighbor scenario, because it
was arguable, and I think they succeeded in saying she
was an instigator. She was constantly calling the police, she
was constantly yelling at the kids, so she was inviting
this behavior.
Speaker 1 (28:07):
Well also, I believe I think I read in an
article that she had done research on stand your ground
prior to the Well, that's.
Speaker 2 (28:16):
The part She's like, let me see what my options are.
Speaker 1 (28:20):
When I was saying that in practicality on a piece
of paper, it sounds good, but when you actually put
it into practice, the problem is is that if people
are aware of the stand your ground law, then the
defense can always be I felt imminent fear. I'm just
saying she did research on the law. I think she
was looking it up. She terms to you, I was
(28:42):
fearful of my life. I thought she was going to
kill me.
Speaker 2 (28:46):
I thought she was going to She was looking at
what her options were to commit a crime against this lady.
Speaker 1 (28:52):
I mean, I mean, you could, at the end of
the day, you could even argue it was premeditated. She
had a gun close by, she stole the kid's tablet.
I don't know. I mean maybe she wanted it to
escalate to that point. I mean never, I would never
prosecute her as premeditated because you probably couldn't get a
jury to convict on premeditated. She was convicted on manslaughter.
But all right, So, four days after the shooting, deputies
(29:16):
conducted a second interview with Lorenz, during which she admitted
to researching sanyar ground and self defense laws in the
recent past. The Sheriff's office determined Lorenz's killing of a
j Owens was not justified under the law, and they
arrested her. Lorenz was charged with manslaughter with a firearm,
culpable negligence, battery, and two counts of assault. On July
(29:36):
tenth of twenty twenty three, Lorenz pleads not guilty to
all charges. She goes to trial, and then in August
sixteenth of twenty twenty four, a six person jury convicts
Susan Lorenz of manslaughter with a firearm after a week
long trial. Evidence includes her nine to one one calls,
witness accounts, and ballistics proving she fired through a closed,
(29:58):
locked door. I do also know during the trial. I mean,
there were character witnesses on her behalf, and there were
so many people that came forward and said they couldn't
see her being like that, and she was like heavily
involved in her church and very helpful.
Speaker 2 (30:12):
But yeah, well there's hours of bodycam footage that show otherwise,
right exactly, And I'll go with that.
Speaker 1 (30:18):
And you know what my other question was, And I
could not find this, and I don't know why I
couldn't find it. I wanted to know if she had
any children. My assumption would be no, or if she
was ever married, and I couldn't find anything. So I'm
just going to assume, based upon her actions and the
way she that she that she's very likable, that she's
(30:39):
never been married, and that she's never had any children.
Speaker 2 (30:42):
Or on the other hand, she might have been married
like three or four times and they've all had a
mysterious death.
Speaker 1 (30:47):
No, maybe all right. So then in November twenty fifth
of twenty twenty four, Lorenzo's sentenced to twenty five years
in prison. The judge deemed the shooting quote completely unnecessary
end quote, adding in this case, Miss Lorenz was behind
the door, the door was locked. She had already called
law enforcement. They were en route. She knew they were
(31:09):
en route. She was in a relatively safe position. For
some reason, she went into her room and found a gun.
She could have stayed in the room and put another
locked door between her and Miss Owens, but she came
back out, put herself in front of the door, and
at the time she fired the gun through the door,
she was safe. That was a good way, just to
break it down and make it very simple.
Speaker 2 (31:29):
She could have also returned the tablet.
Speaker 1 (31:31):
She could have answered the door and apologized.
Speaker 2 (31:34):
Yeah, that would have been a most person.
Speaker 1 (31:38):
Lorenz is serving her prison sentence at Homestead Correctional Institute
in South Florida, with a release date set for April
eighth of twenty forty eight. You know, there's one other thing.
Speaker 2 (31:48):
Old.
Speaker 1 (31:48):
Was she fifty eight fifty eight when I think when
the shooting occurred, So probably fifty nine to sixty by
the time there.
Speaker 2 (31:57):
For how many years she going to be in there?
Speaker 1 (31:59):
Well, we have to do math. Twenty forty eight, how
long is that from now? Twenty three years?
Speaker 2 (32:03):
Yeah, but you said twenty five years, So I just
didn't know if there was like twenty five years but eligible.
Speaker 1 (32:08):
For it, I mean, I guess she could still it.
She'd be like around eighty three or something. I don't
know if she'll be eligible.
Speaker 2 (32:12):
Let's see her stay in her ground, in her cell, right,
Let's see how well that goes exactly. She's going to
complain about the noise and the jail.
Speaker 1 (32:20):
You know, I'll tell you again when I was rude
awakening when I watched True crime. Obviously there's never a
happy ending in true crime, but this documentary really affected me,
like I sobbed.
Speaker 2 (32:32):
I couldn't finish it once the police were called for
the murder, you know, and then they had to tell
the dad that, you know, the mother of his children died,
and he you know, almost fell down in tears. I mean,
I didn't I don't know. I just didn't feel there
was much for me to learn, and watching the rest
of that and it was kind of heartbreaking.
Speaker 1 (32:51):
So it was really heartbreaking.
Speaker 2 (32:52):
It was really emotional, and I was as mad at
the neighbor.
Speaker 1 (32:56):
Yeah, so you just this is mad at her. Yeah,
I will. You should be, as anyone should be. But
the part that was just so heartbreaking was that this
documentary gives you I realized that I've never seen a real,
a real scenario where exactly unfolding in real time, where
(33:20):
she's shot, they're trying to revive her, they're doing everything
possible they can. Before the ambulance arrives. The children are there,
this Izzy is at the neighbor's house, and he's an
emotional mess. And I kept thinking about my boys because
he's like, he's like ten or eleven, he's like around
(33:42):
the same age as our boys. And then the dad
shows up quickly.
Speaker 2 (33:47):
And then immediately comes to learn and then she didn't survive.
Now he has to deal with all this and try
to comfort the children, right, So then he.
Speaker 1 (33:56):
Has to find all four of the children and he
pulls all four over to the side, and this dad
has to tell his for children.
Speaker 2 (34:03):
In the show, that's all.
Speaker 1 (34:04):
There, all of it. It's all on bodycam footage. And
he pulls all four children in and has to tell
them that their mother did not survive. And it was
the most heartbreaking.
Speaker 2 (34:18):
I basically gave because of the scenario, not because of
the dad. There was no hope because if it's like
she's going to hospital or do everything we can, then
at least the kids can hold on to something. But
it was like, no, there's not even anything to hope
for now it's over.
Speaker 1 (34:31):
No, it was just it was it was heartbreaking. It
was I was sobbing.
Speaker 2 (34:35):
Well, now I think about it. Then they had to
live with the neighbors still for four days. I mean,
I'm sure they went to the dad's house and all lot,
but I mean, like that then knowing for however many
days that then all the neighbors know that she's still there.
Why isn't she arrested even though we know they were
doing their homework.
Speaker 1 (34:49):
I don't think she went back to that apartment though.
I don't know where she went after the.
Speaker 2 (34:51):
Sh Karen or the Karen.
Speaker 1 (34:53):
Yeah, her name was Susan, but the kids called her
the Karen. Yeah. Anyway, I was just that was so
just raw and emotional for me to watch those children.
I realize I've never seen anything like that in real
time and not like a depiction or someoney acting. It
(35:13):
was like those children really learned that right then. So
what other national cases have used the Stanyard ground law. Well,
when we were doing a little research on this, we
realized that Trayvon Martin and George Zimmerman. Do you remember
that case from back in twenty twelve.
Speaker 2 (35:34):
Yeah, that was like an hoa security guarden, Yeah, security
guard or.
Speaker 1 (35:37):
Something unlike Susan Lorenz. George Zimmerman was not charged for
the death of Trayvon Martin because investigators found that he
was within the bounds of the Stanyard Ground Law when
he shot Trayvon Martin in twenty twelve. So, in February
twenty twelve, Trayvon Martin was a seventeen year old black
teenager and he was visiting his father, Tracy Martin, in Stanford, Florida,
(35:58):
after receiving a ten day suspension and from Crop Senior
High School. George Zimmerman was a twenty eight year old
volunteer neighborhood Watch captain for the retreat at Twin Lakes
Gated community in Sanford, Florida, and this was at the
time of the shooting. Trayvon was walking home from a
convenience store when Zimmerman, who claimed he looked suspicious, followed
(36:20):
him and called nine one one. Despite being told by
dispatchers not to pursue, Zimmerman went ahead and confronted Martin.
A struggle ensued, and Zimmerman shot Martin once in the chest,
killing him.
Speaker 2 (36:33):
So he approached.
Speaker 1 (36:34):
He approached after being told not.
Speaker 2 (36:37):
I forgot about that part.
Speaker 1 (36:40):
Zimmerman claimed self defense, saying Martin attacked him and that
he feared for his life. Florida's Staniard Ground law became
central to both the legal proceedings and the national debate.
Although Zimmerman didn't formally invoke the law during trial, it
influenced the police's initial decision not to arrest him for
several weeks as they accepted his self defense claim under
(37:01):
its protection. The case sparked massive public outrage and protests
across the country, leading to renewed scrutiny of stanyard ground
laws and their disproportionate impact on racial minorities. In July
of twenty thirteen, George Zimmerman was acquitted of second degree
murder and manslaughter, with jurors concluding the prosecution hadn't disproven
(37:24):
his self defense claim because remember, the prosecution has the
burden and the standiard ground to prove that it wasn't
a standard ground. But there was no reasonable you know, fear.
Speaker 2 (37:34):
Yeah, once you claim the defense, the burden shifts to
the prosecutor to show otherwise. Right when you told me
how the police instructed him to stay away, yeah, and
then and then he didn't.
Speaker 1 (37:48):
Right.
Speaker 2 (37:49):
So now I'm thinking, well, because I know in Florida
that's one of the things is you can't be an
instigator like he went and asked for trouble.
Speaker 1 (37:56):
Right. And it also makes me wonder because also part
of the law is that you have to legally be
allowed to be where you are.
Speaker 2 (38:03):
Was he on duty security guard?
Speaker 1 (38:05):
He was. He was like a volunteer, like a neighborhood
watch volunteer type of security.
Speaker 2 (38:10):
So some organized way, but I was there, right.
Speaker 1 (38:12):
But I'm saying I'm saying you can make the argument
because the police or because he was warned not to
coach him that that I don't know.
Speaker 2 (38:23):
Maybe I want to feel the need to approach him
though if the cops are on their way.
Speaker 1 (38:27):
I don't know. It's the same thing with the susan lawrence.
Speaker 2 (38:30):
If someone's trying to break into my home or something,
or I'm seeing him down the street and I call
and report it and say you need to come there's
someone breaking into his home, and then they're like, Okay, yeah,
stay where you are, don't go there, we have someone reporting.
Why would I feel the need to like approach the suspect.
I'm at most I would want to just kind of
(38:52):
keep tabs on where they are once they don't approach me,
or I can tell the police when they get here
that he moved over there. But I wouldn't feel the need.
Some people, well, I don't know.
Speaker 1 (39:01):
Well, that was my point in the whole when they
how they stand your ground walls have eliminated the duty
to retreat part. I feel like it's led to more violence.
Instead of having the mindset that if you can de escalate,
you have a duty to de escalate. He he had time,
the ability to de escalate. He just didn't.
Speaker 2 (39:21):
He called yes, way, nothing even happened. He could have
state where he was.
Speaker 1 (39:24):
That's what I'm saying.
Speaker 2 (39:25):
And so I wasn't even to de escalate. It was
a keep it as a non criminal scenario.
Speaker 1 (39:30):
That's my point. Yeah, just let the police come and yeah,
question him and then he would still be alive.
Speaker 2 (39:38):
And yeah, here we are. That was a big deal.
I remember on that that was out.
Speaker 1 (39:44):
Oh yeah, that was huge. I remember it too, back
in twenty twelve.
Speaker 2 (39:46):
Because you had minors, uh, you had someone that was
playing cop, you had a race in there. It was
just a lot of things profiling right.
Speaker 1 (39:59):
What does the public have to say about stand your
ground laws? So, gun right supporters argue people should not
have to try and retreat before defending themselves.
Speaker 2 (40:07):
Gun right supporters support shooting a gun.
Speaker 1 (40:10):
This was said by Alan Gottlieb, who is the founder
of the Second Amendment Foundation. He pointed to a Florida
homeowner who recently shot and killed a man suspected of
shooting a police officer as the man tried to break
into his house. While that case could have been covered
by other self defense laws. Gottlieb said, stand your ground
laws offer reassurance. It's made a very big difference in
(40:31):
self defense situations, he said. Gun control activists say the
increasing presence of guns and laws like stanyard ground are
a deadly combination. Representative Lucy Macbeth, who entered politics after
her son was slain at a Florida gas station in
twenty twelve by a white man who was angry over
the loud music playing in the black teenager's car. This
(40:52):
is the case I was telling you about. Said, laws
like stanyard ground or shoot first laws give people like
Jordan's killer, my Son's hill, or the idea that you
can shoot first and ask questions later. Michael Dunn used
to stand your ground law and his defense, but was
convicted and is serving a life sentence. So Michael Dunn
is the one that shot the teenager. And that's what
(41:12):
I was talking about earlier when I was saying I
read about a case, it was this one. It was
where you can de escalate the situation by leaving. If
his music is bothering you, you can get in your
car and you can drive away. It doesn't have to
get to the point of a stand your ground defense
if you can de escalate, And the problem is is
that it took away that duty to retreat that you're just.
Speaker 2 (41:34):
Yeah, I just don't know if that's what popped in
this person's head.
Speaker 1 (41:37):
I don't know what popped into their head, but it didn't.
In his case, it didn't work. He was convicted and
is serving a life sentence. So I mean, that's a
scenario where it doesn't work.
Speaker 2 (41:46):
It.
Speaker 1 (41:46):
I mean it it's beneficial in cases where it's very
clear cut that your life is in jeopardy and you
have the right to defend yourself. But in so many
other cases where it's like they're in a parking lot
and he's playing loud music and there's an altercation, or
the Susan Lorenz case or the Trayvon Martin, it's not
that clear cut. There's other ways to de escalate. There's
(42:09):
ways that it could have been handled differently.
Speaker 2 (42:12):
I think that the standard ground do you retreating? All that,
only it correctly applies when someone's really just reacting properly,
like someone's busting in my home, so I applot it
again and I shoot them, not when they think.
Speaker 1 (42:24):
All right, Thanks guys for listening again, let me know
your opinions on stand your Ground or any of these
cases that we discuss. Also if there's any other cases
that you would like us to discuss. I love it
when you guys always have recommendations. I truly appreciate it,
so please feel free to DM me and again, make
sure you follow us on our own feed legally Brunette,
make sure you leave a review and make sure you're
(42:45):
following because that's where all of our episodes will be
going forward. So thanks so much, guys, Thank you,
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