Epilogue Pt 2 - Len Bias: A Mixed Legacy - The Importance of Making the Right Decision

Chris Spetzler, Executive Director of the Decision Education Foundation along with basketball coach Glen Farello and former Maryland basketball star Travis Garrison discuss the importance of good and bad decision making and how it has affected their careers in sports, with podcast producer Dave Ungrady.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:01):
Joining in this episode are two people who have been
involved in basketball at the elite level. One is Glenn Farrello,
one of the top high school basketball coaches in the country.
And I think the most important part of that decision
making it part of you talking about life skills, uh
and and the bigger picture is you want to try
to find a way to not just talk act and

(00:21):
and I talked to m I give them some information
that they could actually think about instead of being another
adult telling them what to do or you know, the
pitfalls of life. We have a standing staying here, a
standards over feeming right, and kids get so caught up
in the feelings because sometimes a decision making is just
a by product of that on the court and off
of the court. Because also joining us in this episode

(00:44):
this Travis Garroson. Travis was a Turk in two thousand
two to two thousand and six. You know, some of
the Sistem coaches gave me video on the bias and
just saying his game and how good he was, you know,
and not is that's just how it was, how his
church was, that how he wasn't a person, It just
took a world of his own and and that decision

(01:09):
just it had a ripple effect throughout so much even
till this day. Um, how that one choice affected not
just my Horner Court situation, but how things happened off
the court as well. There's times I wanted to give up.
That's how bad it was at times, because it seemed
like I could never get over the hump. I'm trying to.
I'm trying to make up for what I did wrong,

(01:30):
but people aren't giving me an opportunity to see. So
it's times like what was the point of still being here?
And it's like I'm a competitor that says I don't
like losing. So it's more so like, Okay, I'm not
going I'm not giving up a life because I still
have to live and have kids and I have an
obligation to do um, So how can I turn this
thing around? In this segment of Let Bias a Mixed Legacy,

(01:54):
Episode two of epilogue, the Importance of making the right decisions.
This is Dave Rady, executive producer of this podcast series.
In this episode, we feature two people connected to basketball
and the legacy of len Bias who have faced many
challenging decisions. In our first functional epilog episode, we told

(02:17):
the stories of two students who used a number of
tools that helped them make an effective decision. For our
second functional epilog episode of the series, we will expand
the decision making topic to involve basketball. After all, that
makes sense in the podcast series that focuses on the
legacy of len bias. We are using the tragic story

(02:41):
of bias as a teaching tool to better understand the
importance of making the right decision. Joining us in this episode,
as he did in the first epilogue, is Chris Spetzler,
the executive director of the Decision Education Foundation. Chris is
a respected authority the topic and he is a national

(03:02):
leader in the movement of decision education. The d e
F is a promotional partner in this podcast series. Chris
will be our point person for explaining the principles of
effective decision making. There is so much more to making
the right decision than simply telling people that you need

(03:24):
to make the right decision. Also joining in this episode
are two people who have been involved in basketball at
the elite level. One is Glenn Farrello, one of the
top high school basketball coaches in the country. His teams
at Paul the Sixth High School in Fairfax, Virginia have
repeatedly finished among the top twenty in the country over

(03:47):
the last two decades. Also joining us in this episode
is Travis Garrison. Travis grew up in the same county
as Len Bias, Prince George's county, never like Land. He
played basketball at Maryland. Travis was a Turk from two
thousand two to two thousand six. He has overcome two

(04:09):
assault convictions and now is using his platform to help
people make better decisions with his program called Big First
and Make the Right Choice. Few professions require as many
in the moment decisions in pressure situations as coaching in athletics,

(04:32):
and one person very familiar with those types of decisions
is Glenn Farrello. Glenn just finished his fifteenth season as
head coach of the boys basketball team at Paul, the
sixth High School in Fairfax, Virginia. Thirteen of Blenn's teams
have been ranked in the top twenty in the United States.
In the Washington d c. Area, his teams have been

(04:54):
ranked number one three times. More than eighty of those
he coached have played college basketball and four have NBA experience.
Glenn joins us today to discuss the challenges of decision
making related to coaching sports, and we feel this portion
of the episode will be helpful, especially to all coaches

(05:17):
who deal with the range of decisions on a daily basis.
And Glen, before we get started on on decisions, you've
made uh something a little timely. You. I think you
had four of your ex players in the final four.
Tell us who they were in and what you remember
them is playing that Paul, Yeah, no, absolutely, Uh, We're
gonna say Brandon's later UM was a starter for Villanova, Uh,

(05:40):
Jeremy Roach and Trevor Keel's with Duke and then uh
Anthony Harris with North Carolina. So those are the four
that real to progress and make us all proud. And
they were actually part of a twenty eight teen team
that was the top ten in the country. UM had
had a had a tremendous season for us here. But
it's got to feel good as a coach, developed as
as young players and now you see sort of the

(06:02):
fruits of those labors. Absolutely, absolutely, and they're all just
wonderful kids too, and know how they conduct themselves. And
I think that's a big part of you know, in
our discussion about it, the decision making. I think they've
all made some really smart decisions of how they've handled
things and how the people around them and UH and
their own value systems, because I think that plays a
big pardon. We always talked to our players about place,

(06:22):
their own value systems. We can talk about culture and identity,
UH any organization you're be part of, and and we're
gonna try to impress upon them the important things that
own individual value system has got to be strong and
they get those. They have to make those decisions on
a daily basis. Well. Values will be a key component
of as we talked about decision making. It's it's one
of the six elements of the of the decision chain.

(06:43):
And before we get into those decisions, I wanted to
first get your thoughts and perspectives if you have any
what you remember about led Bias. Did his story impact
you or any of your players, anything like that that
you can recall about land and related to your experiences.
One of the biggest things that I thought that happened
for me as I moved from Ohio UM to UH

(07:03):
to Maryland the Silver Spring um in so I think
it was very impactful for me as a as a
young coach, to hear the stories about let's passed, That's
when I started in the business UM and to to
the impact on my players this time went along, I
thought was very UM important. They kind of progressed as
young young men. These kids, uh, nowadays, they don't get

(07:27):
enough credit for understanding their history of the sport. Right.
And and because there's so much on social media. We
talked about the negativity of social media. I always try
to spin it and and talk about the positivity too,
and how much they can learn and and have access
to information. So there the kids are much more understanding
of past players. So it's really interesting about Len's story,

(07:49):
is uh the cautionary tale to it um. The kids
don't closs over that. They see the importance of of
of that and and how it has cut short. This
is a story that has back then was the important
from from discussing UM, the real concerns and the dangerous

(08:09):
um that that come with UM. UM you know, be
putting yourself in this in this type of position, UM.
And that has not changed over all these years. I
think the finality of it, right, this isn't a situation
where you know, some some poor decisions led to some
bad times and then he recovered from it. This one
is that there's a finality to it. There's a real

(08:30):
finality too that you can't get past too when it's
cut short. So I think they're really I think they're
really kind of um uh curious if you will. Uh
they know how good m J was. They they obviously
does like and then to hear they will hold on
he might have been a version of someone that will
be in that stratosphere and they just kind of look
look at you, like kidding me, like someone like that

(08:52):
he could you know, that was a that's a that's
a that's a huge statement, right, and then for that
to be like, well, we never found out, we never
get the chance to see it, you know. So I
think that, uh, you know, and I think to just
as we look at the death of Kobe over the
last few years and the impact that has on the kids,
and and how important Kobe was to them, and how

(09:14):
they listened to all the messaging and they want to
listen to the interviews and they want to want to
pay attention to the stories of Kobe. I think in
a different way, you know, in the situation for Lenn
I think it still resonates to this day. Let's let's
get into your decision making as a coach. As I
see it, coaching involves all the three main types of
decisions in the moment, spontaneous, significant, which is more short term,

(09:36):
and life shaping, which is long term. Explain to me
the most important decision do you feel of those three
uh that involved coaching, We as coaches have to balance
all three of them, right. UH. In a game situation,
you're gonna make a lot of quick decisions. They think
that is something that you have to find a way
on a daily basis incorporate that into your daily life.

(09:58):
UM as a coach or as a program. We do
that a lot on on the front side of practices,
so that will UH for example, we'll use we'll have
a later practice and then we'll have a study whole
time for the kids to study. But then we'll have
a team meeting. And in those team meetings, yes, you
can talk about your day to day and what you
need to do. And I think the most important part
of that decision making as far you talk about life
skills uh and and the bigger picture is you want

(10:20):
to try to find a way to not just talk
at them. We want to talk to them. You want
to give them some information that they can actually think
about instead of being another adult telling them what to
do or you know, the pitfalls of life not easy
to do, and you because you just don't want them
to kind of zone out, which you know, I think
we all understand why eight old might do that, especially
they had school all day long. And here we are

(10:42):
have another lecture about how to live live life. Right,
Let's now bring in again Chris Spetzler, the executive director
of the Decision Education Foundation, a content partner in this
podcast series. Chris has been listening to our conversation. Chris,
can you can you offer some some comment about that
As we're talking about the different types of decisions that

(11:03):
coaches face, we mentioned the three. Do you think anyone
is more important than the other? Well, I thought the
distinction there between during the game, you're in it and
you want people to be in the zone and they've
already trained to do what's right and shouldn't be thinking
about it but should be following the place. And there

(11:25):
are some in the moment decisions, but they're at the
level of who's out there and um, what's the system
and what's the right strategy in the moment. But then
outside of the game day, UM, there's a lot that
happens in preparation and you spend time thinking and deciding
and figuring out what's the best way to go in
so that when you're in the moment, you're on automatic

(11:47):
and you're doing it the way that should be done.
So not only are they training technically to be the
proficient basketball players and tactically, but mentally they're training their
brain to think quickly in the moment efficiently. Glenn, how
do you integrate into your sessions teaching the brain to

(12:07):
be good, to be effective on the moment decisions, get
their mindset right, get their mind right as far as
how they're approaching today, then a decision making to be
better right. So like as we move into the practice time, Uh,
if they're not, if your mind's not right, we're not
gonna be able to teach you and get yourself prepp
to make sure you're making the decisions on the court.
We have a standing saying here as standards over feeling right,
and kids get so caught up in their feelings and

(12:29):
sometimes our decision making is just a bye product of
that on the court and off the court, human emotion
is going to come into it, so we want our
standards to be there. To way, we had to push
our feelings aside for a second so they've can concentrate
on the job at hand. We're able to get them
to think clearly of what their purposes and their enthusiasm
for what they're doing. Then they're much more accepting of
some of the decision making uh, decision decisions that they

(12:50):
have to make on the court, UH and in those
real moments in real time that they just go into,
as Chris mentioned, into just hey, it's in a moment
you're making the right decision because you've been you've been
prepared for this, uh and are not emotional about it.
Chris Glenn brings up an interesting point about about emotions
and we in decision making way off and talk about
head and heart. But as I understand that that's more

(13:12):
related to the significant and life shaping decisions, does that
apply as much in the moment decisions? How you how
you bounce your head and heart? Well, just the way
that the brain works, there's always some level of balance
of head and heart that's going on, and by head,
we mean logic and reasoning, and by heart we mean emotion.
And you can't actually make decisions when you don't have

(13:35):
emotions because they're associated with your values. It's it's what
you want, so they're always both there and Um, the
main thing is to be in a place where you
can harness that affect those emotions in order to achieve
something that is rationally what you want. And when you
are in a good decision state, you can do that.

(13:59):
And when you are are when you've lost it. I
think everybody can see when an athlete is shaken, and
it's how do you get back in the zone so
that you can perform? And when someone totally loses it? Um,
if you're in a rage, you're not in a position
to make a well reasoned choice. So how do you
get back in the place where you can? So how

(14:20):
do you Let's say there's an athlete who's raised, their
emotions are out of control, how do they get back
into that that state where they can be of of
of a recent state? I think it's much easier to
see someone that isn't in that state than to recognize
it in yourself. And that's typically when the coach pulls
the person, or they've been ejected from the game and
then they have time to think about it and come

(14:42):
back to a place where they're able to function again. Um,
if somebody is very capable and they have some of
the strategies that go along with let's say mindfulness, and
they're able to say, okay, so it's not just counting
backwards from ten, but need to do something a little
bit more complex, like multiplied by seven's and count that way, right,

(15:06):
It's not You've got to do something that kicks it
upstairs and slows you down so that you can get
in your zone. And if we're talking about basketball, um,
there are things that people do that are routines that
help them to get that focus. I think that's most
clear when they're at the free throw line and people
have a couple of bounces that they do and they

(15:28):
position themselves and they get that focus and then they
execute and there's still uncertainty around it and you want
to get the best percentages you can, but sometimes it
just doesn't go in. And I guess when we're talking
about life shaping decisions, just to go back to that, Um,
those are the things that the students can do off
the court. That helped them to be great players. And

(15:49):
so that whole category of what it is that I'm
eating and what it is that is my training regiment,
and how am I approaching school and how am I
approaching my relationships so that when I come to the game,
I'm where I want to be and I can be
the best player that I can be for my team.
And I really like that comment um standards over emotions.

(16:12):
I thought that that's a wonderful principle in a way
of communicating something that's very deep. Let's say a coach
pulls a player who's whose emotions around of whack and
they've got to control them. They've got them on the
bench and some maybe an assistant coaches trying to talk
to the the head coaches trying to coach the game. What
are some things Chris, that some tools they can use
in that moment to try to get that player to

(16:33):
to to refocus and be more of a recent person. Well, again,
I would think that this is the sort of training
that you want to work with the players off the court,
so that then when they're in that situation, they have
something that they can refer back to that they can
use in that moment. Um, you know these um, these

(16:56):
little snow things with the glass where you shake it
up and then it's all ever over and then it
settles down. Well, that's something that people have done to
help kids think about their emotions and um. Then they
shake them up and then they want to they want
to bring it and have it all settled down and
and um and filter out. Have them be able to

(17:20):
picture a place where they are calm and in the
zone or a moment when they had it together, and
put themselves in that place so that they can recognize
that that's not where they are currently. I guess the
first thing is to be aware of the situation that
you're in and recognize that you need to shift that,

(17:41):
and then to have some strategies. Please explain how decisions
fitness ties into this situation, but not not only for
in the moment decisions or getting somebody out of that
height and emotional moment, but also for the other types
of decisions as well. So when we see an individual
who has lost it, we know that they are hard

(18:02):
to even control or slow down talked to. They're just
not with us. And decision fitness is when you are centered.
Your decision state is as good as it can be
in terms of processing information, in terms of making reason judgments,
in terms of being clear on what your values are.

(18:23):
And there are plenty of situations where we know that
that has been impaired. UM. There was the comment earlier
from Glenn that you've got students who often are in
situations where they think they're in a good place, but
they may not be. And UM, you want to be

(18:43):
able to help them to see where they are outside
of themselves. And we talk about decision coaching, where you
help the students. You don't tell them what to do,
rather you help them to reach their own conclusions based
on reflecting back to them the evidence that you see.

(19:03):
And and that may be kind of the core thing
UM that a coach brings because they have such a
strong relationship with the student or the athlete and there's
such a strong level of trust. But as we know,
young people are not interested in hearing what an older
person UM wants them to do, or um what they

(19:27):
should they should be doing right. They want to conclude
based on their own perspective, based on their own evidence
and their own values, what they feel is right for them.
And when those two things are in line, that's very powerful.
What are some things you can do to be a
to train to become a good UH as part of
decision fitness, to be a good decision maker. There is

(19:50):
a very strong similarity between the decisions in coaching and
athletics with the research that's been done in emergencies, that
stuations and intuitive decision making. And for example, firefighters are
often in a situation where they react and do the

(20:11):
right thing and save themselves when there was information that
would be hard to know what exactly caused them to
get out of that situation. You know, maybe it was
just a sense of feeling they heard something, and so
this is the standards versus emotions. There are policies that
are created by experts that have analyzed situations that say,

(20:36):
in these circumstances, act these ways, and so that's what
you do. You decide outside the situation, and then you practice, practice, practice,
You train so that when you're in that situation you
do what's right naturally, but you can't always guarantee the
outcome that you want. And so you spend time afterwards
looking at the film and saying, you know, if if

(20:58):
we had this opportunity again, I'd rather you did this.
What you did was pretty good, but there was a
better alternative, and I'd like you to be aware of it. Glenn.
Can you try to recall when you've had a player
not thinking clearly because of their emotions take them out
of the game. How do you comment down? What what
kind of things have you done? We had a young
team and we had a very emotional team, and we

(21:20):
had multiple guys that are like this and and what
makes them so good? Uh is the emotion? Right? Um?
I think a couple of things. I think one is
we always talked about playing for each other. So when
you make it yourself accountable, be part some bigger than yourself.
You now know that you've got to kind of find
a way to get yourself where you need to because
you are emotional and you are in your in your
own head. So how do we get you out? Well,

(21:40):
one of the best ways to do it is the teammate,
because the teammate knows what you're going through. They're there
to support you. There they are your brother, uh, and
they want to help you get to where we need to.
The assistant coach's job is to remind them of the
job at hand. So if you can get back to Okay,
I know you're upset. I know where you're at right now,
but let's remind you of what we're trying to get accomplished,
and uh and and and what you want to get

(22:01):
accomplished as a competitor, not just what's best for the team,
but also for yourself. And so I think the best
players are the ones that can make that adjustment within
the game, uh, within a quarter, within coming out and
then maybe going back in maybe a half time to
be able to get themselves the centered. So I think
those are a couple of different mechanisms that we of
course have, uh things that saying for the kids, you
try to like let them know when things are going

(22:22):
bad is badly poorly uh and just yell out next play,
for example, So we all know if I yelled the
next play, the team and yells that next play just says, hey,
move on from what just happened. Let's get to the
next play. Let's not be worried about it. Even our
best player, the player of the year, Doug McDaniel, is
a very emotional player. Point guard five ten. You're going
to Michigan and uh, and Doug plays with such emotion

(22:43):
and you want him to play with emotion. You don't
want to take that away from him. So when he's
in those moments to where he's frustrated because things aren't
going going the way we want to UM, I think
just that communication. But hey, trust us, we're here to
help you. We're help here to help you get get
to where you want to UM. And we have a
lot of come back victories this year or fourth quarter
performances that were very high level after going through some

(23:04):
struggles and frustrations, I walked through a lot of scenarios
of when here's all the things that could possibly go wrong.
Here's what I've seen in the past. Some of you
guys have ever been in playoff experiences. I've had twenty
five years of them, so I've seen what works and
what doesn't. So I'm not telling you how to live.
You're gonna face somebody's experiences, so uh, being able to

(23:24):
relate to that, getting your getting yourself to a point
where like I need to make these corrections in orders
for my performance to to to definitely elevate and help
my team win. Chris, I guess that's a big part
of of getting that mind. In more of a recent
state correct. Yeah, well, Glenn, I would ask you also, um,
with some of these athletes, is the best thing just

(23:45):
to give them some space? Yes? Yeah. Sometimes it says,
hey man, you're all right, gap them up right, high
five of them. Hey man, puts back in the cope.
Mints you know you know, get yeah, get get getting
your get yourself, get yourself right. Other kids respond in
a different way, right. You got to know how to write,
push the right buttons and know who they are. Sometimes
you kind of getting on him a little more, what
are you doing? Come on and eat you? It'll it'll

(24:07):
they'll react with the it'll appeal to the competitive nature
of that player, and sometimes that is what gets them
going because they do have that chip on their shoulder
about being competitor. So sometimes you do kind of look
at them and say, come on, let's go. You're better
than this, like and it's like oh yeah. So I
do think there's sometimes where you just leave them alone
and let them figure it out. And then one of
my favorite things, I just look at them like are

(24:27):
you ready now? Are you ready now? Because clearly I
don't know what you were doing before, and you can
just get in your emotion and they're like, yeah, coach,
I got you now, or like or they'll look at
you like they're still upset and I'm like, it's not
ready yet. Anything you want to add to that, Chris.
What I heard Glenn say is that when you've got
a relationship with an athlete, you kind of know what

(24:49):
it is that's going to help them to center. And
some kids will be able to do it themselves and
you just want to give them the space, and others
need some sort of an active cue that will help them.
Tom remember what it is that works for them to
get them back into their best state for playing drinking
how many times by restaurants? Hey remember this game, you

(25:12):
did this, you came back, you had a tough time,
and then you turned it around in the second half
or the fourth quarter. You were so instrumental in what
we were doing. And you can see them going, yeah,
I have done this before, I have been here before,
I can do this. Let's let's move on to UH
more of the UH significant life shaping decisions. Glenn, But
what process do you have to try to guide these

(25:34):
kids and players through decisions that are going to be
more significant life shaping What what college colleges to consider
what college is to choose. How do you guide them
through that process, that long term the decision making process. Yeah,
so the first thing you actually make sure to talk
to all the kids about is the spotlight. Right as
as competitors that a lot of the kids like the spotlight. So, um,

(25:56):
I say, you have a choice. When the spotlights on you,
you can use it for good and it will shine
on you, or when you make poor decisions, it's gonna
burn you. You're gonna be a high level of basketball
player if you're gonna be a college student athlete and
have a full right scholarship available to you. Uh, there
are certain things that you just can down walk through
and may and recover from where other people can make
poor decisions and then recover from them. And then when

(26:17):
you do make those decisions and you do make poor
decisions that hurt you, how is it you recover from them?
And how you own own it? Right? How do you
own up to it and accept it and then move
on and let's not make excuses about it? Uh? Will
off off in reference especially if a player has some
scholarship offers and have some relationships already with college coaches.
But well, hey, if you were to play for Jay
right at Villanova? Would how do you think that your

(26:40):
conduct right now? How would that fit in? What's what
are the what are the things you like about? Do?
What do you like? Would you would you like about
their culture and identity that attracted you to them to say, Hey,
that's my dream school, you know, because they're gonna say
very positive things about whatever school happens to be, uh,
what they're interested in, who they're interested in, and then
you walk them back into well, how does that work
right now? How do you do you feel like you

(27:01):
are living that right now? And with some of the
decisions you're making again academically, performance on the court, how
they can, how they're acting with their parents, how they're
connecting with their their coaches are, how coachable they are, UM,
their day to day work that they put in, Here's
what's going to take UM. Do you think you're on
the right path? Do you think you're making the right
decisions on a daily basis? You know what what you're eating,

(27:22):
what your what your weight training program happens to be.
How much how dedicated and committed you are on a
daily basis to get here. A lot of kids like
to do the sometimes thing right. Sometimes sometimes I put
their work in. Sometimes I work hard, sometimes I'm in
a good mood. Sometimes I can analyst, and I always
say that you do that. Sometimes you win, sometimes you lose,
and if you want to be a sometimes player, you're
probably not gonna make it. And the decision making on

(27:43):
a daily basis goes into that, because at the end
of the day, any kid will tell you they know
what it takes. It's just are they willing to do
what it takes? And that goes into what we're talking
about here is those decisions that you do make are
a reflection of are you willing. It's not that you
don't know what what what needs to be done, are
you willing to do those things that need to be done?
Chris six elements of the decision chain. We're talking about framing, values, reasoning, information, alternatives,

(28:10):
and commitment. Can you focus on a couple that are
most important or are they all equally important when they're
picking when they're making these kind of decisions. You know,
he made some great points about a sometimes player. Well,
sometimes you win, sometimes you lose, and do you want
to be someone who's consistently winning, Well, then these are

(28:30):
the things that you've got to do, and the kids
know that they've got to do certain things in order
to perform at a certain level. So that's all about
the commitment and follow through if they know what's right.
The other thing also that the idea that a high
school student is very motivated by what's at the next level,
and that they're looking up to the college students and

(28:53):
you can see what those individuals who are performing at
the highest level and come back to what it is
that I need to do in order to get myself
to that level. And I think it's important this is
a process. If you're going to make the most effective decision,
you're just not going to think about it for a
week or a month. You're thinking about this, especially these long,

(29:13):
these life shaping and significant decision you're thinking about it
over time, for a period of time, and you go
through the process and and and as you've mentioned in
the past, prison it may not be a good or
a bad decision. You don't know yet, but is it
an effective decision. You're going through the right process because
you don't know how it's going to turn out. In
most cases, right, you can do everything right and still

(29:35):
not achieve the goal that you have and still not
make that team. Now, you did everything right, you did
everything that was in your power, and you faced an
uncertainty and it didn't go against you. So we make
a distinction between the decision and the outcome. You can
make a good decision and have a bad outcome, Well
that's when you dust yourself off and you go and

(29:57):
do the same thing again. And that takes some cur engine,
some guts. If you make a bad decision and you
get a good outcome, well you got lucky. It was stupid.
Don't do it again. We have a saying in our program, uh,
I cannot guarantee you success if you work hard, but
I can guarantee you failure if you don't. And yeah,

(30:17):
and I think that it just plays into that, right
there is like so many kids get caught up and like, well,
I'm trying to I'm doing this, I'm doing this, I'm
doing this, I'm not seeing the immediate results, So why
am I again? Can continue to do this? And it
is you have to continue to want to do this
and be consistent with it, and eventually it does. It
does come around your way. And we talked about head
and heart, reason feeling what makes sense, what feels right

(30:39):
when you're making these decisions about rosters. This is the
head heavier than the heart. There's the heart heavier than
the head of that process. Yeah, there's a balance. And
I think that as you engage with a player, as
you look at it from just their perspective, you feel
for them so much because it matters so much to them, right,
And I think, I look at every stress I'm not
sure did I make the right decision? Like you know,
did I did? I? I don't know, But I'm not

(31:01):
gonna get me the that that that person is going
to look in the humanistic way of billing the roster
and looking at your players, that I have all the
answers and what I decided was right because I've done
it before, and so headheart. I think you go back
and forth and Chris, anything you want to add to that.
That those last comments by Frank Glenn, what I heard

(31:22):
Glenn say was that the hardest thing that he has
is to think about how to do right by the
individuals when he can't optimize for their values, but he
has to optimize for the whole group. And he knows
that he's going to make some decisions that weren't the best.
But then he's always learned that he din was nobody's

(31:44):
fault because he tried so and they cried. But before that,
he was a joey. He was the boy you wouldn't
doubt that he was going to be. For our next segment,
we will talk with a former University of Maryland basketball
player who has overcome some profound personal challenges and now
promotes the importance of making the right decisions. Travis Garrison

(32:06):
grew up in Suitland, Maryland, just outside the eastern border
of Washington, d C. His home was about ten miles
from the neighborhood where Len Bias grew up in land Over, Maryland.
Garrison was two years old when then Bias died. Like
lenn he became a top high school player and chose
to play US college ball at the University of Maryland.

(32:28):
Travis joins us. Now, Travis, thanks for taking the time,
Thanks for having me. I appreciate it. Tell us, uh,
how Len Bias, if he had any impact on you
and all as a basketball player, how how he did
so and and and how you think of Len Bias
related to basketball. It started back when I was in
high school and his mom actually came as spoke I'm

(32:50):
in my church UM when I was in my senior
high school. You know, she should go around and basically,
you know, tell the story to different churches and UH
News and two young kids basically about you know, the
decision he made and had picked it impacted so much
UH in in her life and her family's life and
in the community. You know, some of the assistant coaches

(33:12):
gave me video on Mr Bias and just saying his
game and how good he was, you know, and not
just that, but just how he was, how his church
was that you know, how he was as a person,
in his charisma and his character. And I'm still learning
to this day about how big of an impact and made,
not just UM on the court, but just in the

(33:33):
community University of run UM, how people are still affected
to this day by that. You had a pretty good
career at Maryland's UH through your junior year in two
thousand five, you you were one of the leading scores
on the team. Two thousand six, your senior year didn't
go as well as maybe you would hope, I guess,
and that was the year you had your first assault charged.

(33:54):
Can you tell us what happened there and how that
impacted your life. I tried to go against the grain
and in regards to you know, I want to people
to look at me more than just a basketball player.
You know. I try to be more sociable and and
hang out with the student body more and not just
around athletes, because you know, the athletes kind of had
I wrapped in in the sense of on campus. Like

(34:16):
you know, we were jocks, so we was cocky or arrogant.
So I was you know, I just wanted to show
people that we were just regular people. Like so I
used to go out my way sometime just to be
more involved in the student body and you know, go
to parties and hang out. Um. It's interesting to know
there's one particular time when I did get in trouble.
We wasn't used so to be out at the bars,

(34:37):
and we got our coach told us that we weren't
allowed at the bars to hang out. Um. I used
to hang out of my room a lot, and I
used to you know, drink a lot in in my
room and then I'll go hang out. In this particular time,
you know, I was going through stuff mentally, you know,
coming off for injury. So I just wanted to go
hang out, and I kind of went down to the
bars and you know, like I normally do, just kicking

(34:59):
with the the student body, and then I got into altercation,
small altercation with a young lady at the bar. Um.
The altercation the less about one minute, really like about
one minute, and then you know, I left, and I
thought that was the end of it, and then things
kind of sprout out of control. I was hotly intoxicated,

(35:20):
but that was no excuse to my actions. Um and then,
like I said, it just took a world of his
own and and that decision just it had a ripple
effect throughout so much, even until this day, of how
that one choice affected not just my owner court of situations,

(35:40):
but how things happened off the court as well. You know,
And at that time, I was young, I didn't understand everything.
I thought was just a small incident that had a
big effect, not just you know, on my basketball career,
ball so as other opportunities that was presented to me
after my career as well. That must have been a

(36:02):
challenging time, I would imagine, especially with your frame of mind.
For clarification purposes, reports said that you grabbed her and
slapped her. Was that accurate? No, it was not accurate.
And and the thing is run that time, you know,
I was told to not say anything. It allowed for
that story to come out the way it did, which
was I think probably the worst thing that could happen

(36:25):
to me at that time, you know, because like I said,
you know that perception. No. First of all, you your
woman beat her, and you you you uh, you physically
assault women in all kinds of ways. So that incident
didn't happen the way that did. And it was interesting
because it came on the papers. My phone was ringing
off the hook off that and um so like and

(36:47):
then the draft was two days after the court. You know,
I thought I was going to court just to try
to hear him and get it over with UM. But
it had an effect on me. Even had opportunities for
NBA teams. NBA team stopped calling. I'm even affected, UM,
some of my overseas opportunities. You know that I was
about to sign a contract for good money overseas. Now

(37:10):
I'm not saying that I'm innocent in all this, because
there was an altercation but didn't go down the way
it was explained, and the papers know, Um, but I
did step out of line. I did go a little
too far, and that's what the effect of it, you know. Um.
First of all, I should have been down there, Um
I said, I should have been as a toxic as

(37:31):
I was. You know, it was a major under lesson,
and UM, I still teach you on it and talk
about it to this day because now and it's more so, Okay,
I can't go back and change that. But what can
I do now going forward? How can I help other
student athletes or other individuals too, uh, to think about
their choice before they make them, and how that if

(37:53):
you don't, how that one choice gonna have a ripple
effect not just for tomorrow, next week or next month,
for a year. I shared those stories, um to try
to help other individuals to really comprehend and see how
your actions could be so detrimental to your future and
other opportunities that you would like to have, um, that

(38:15):
you could possibly have if you didn't make bad choices.
Because there was another assault conviction and if I'm corrected, uh,
can you clarify what happened there and if it was
because it was a conviction not a not a charge,
so and how how was that different, if at all,
from the first charge, first conviction. We're all friends, so

(38:36):
she didn't even went that far in regards to going
into court. Everything was kind of um. Everything was handled
outside of court, and once they find out who I was,
it was out of everybody's hands at the time, and
they I felt as though they wanted to proceed and
push forward because of who I was and me being
a former munnering player. And I said not to say

(38:58):
that I was innocent, but it got it blew up
a little bit more than it it should have. Well, Travis,
I think it's fair to say that you're in a
position from experience to talk about some decisions that you
made that didn't work out too well. And and let's
let's uh segue from that thought to bring in out

(39:18):
Chris Spetzler, who is the executive director of the Decision
Education Foundation. Chris is an expert in explaining ways to
use tools that can help you make the right decision.
For the purposes of our conversation with you, Travis, we're
gonna try to focus on the in the moment decision
aspect of this. Listening to you, Travis, Um, it sounds
like there are some real similarities in your experience with

(39:42):
UM with the decision that Lenn Bias made. Insofar as UM,
I'll bet that at the time that he was making
his decision, he didn't realize how big a consequence might
have come along with it. And we talked about decision
traps and and UM that one of the big things

(40:03):
in terms of thinking about our decision frame is that
we don't perceive things that are outside of our frame.
I I because of my action and then their action
which wasn't never spoken about in the paper that provoked
my action. UM, I didn't think anything that will come
of it. But I didn't like Travis. She didn't respond

(40:25):
kindly to what you did, so so she punched me
my face and my reaction was, I like smooched her head.
I smo I didn't smack her. After left the bar,
now went to my room. I thought that was the
end of it. Could that happen in October. I didn't
get trying to press against me until January. So I
didn't think anything was gonna come of it, and didn't.

(40:47):
I didn't think anything was gonna come of it years
or after I left Marlon. Yeah, And and I would
think that that's one of the things that you're trying
to get across the youth, and that's something that we
want with decision an education foundation is for people to
be able to have a UM broader view of how

(41:08):
their decisions can have longer term consequences than what they
see in the current situation. The other thing that I
hear going on is we have a concept called decision fitness,
and I think we all know situations where we are
a decision unfit, which includes when we're just in a rage,
we can't think clearly, we can't be rational. UM. But

(41:31):
then with alcohol, UM, we've got confidence that goes up
and UM self control that goes down or capacity that
goes down. And it sounds to me like, UM, even
when you went into this situation, you were already in
a situation where you were kind of decision unfit. I
definitely wasn't sober minded. I would have handled the things

(41:54):
of that differently, So that definitely did play a factor. UM,
But I came as excuse a decision culture in this case,
it might even be just a decision friend. UM, did
you have anybody that was with you that UM that
could have stepped in and help you to to settle down.

(42:15):
It happened so fast somebody did step in, but so
at time they saw what happened, they already got me
out the door. True late. But what I what I
also like to hear is that it sounds like you've
you've recognized that this is something in the past, and
you've put it behind you, and you're not letting this

(42:35):
sunk costs keep you down. Yes, I may, I I've
It's been challenging because sometimes given my background regards to
basketball and things I'm trying to do now, it seems
to always get brought up because when a lot of
times people don't know you ain't trying to do business,
or they're trying to get to know you, they google you.

(42:55):
So when they google you, they find out things about
your past and then they they they get this preconceived notion.
I believe that this is my calling and this is
my purpose. So regardless of you know, people that don't
want to deal with you because of my past, I
cannot hinder me or stop me from going forward regards
to because of that. For example, I have to teach

(43:16):
these younger people that look what's going on with me,
or look what happened with me because of my past actions. Chris,
you mentioned a couple of things technically that are related
to decision making, a frame and decision sun costs. Can
you elaborate a little bit so not only Travis, but
everyone can understand what you mean when you he went

(43:37):
outside his frame and then the sun costs of his
of his actions. Well, so the decision frame is what's
the decision we're making at the time, and often the
the decision that that we're making or we think that
we're making, isn't the one that is most consequential. And
the sun cost is when we continue to do some thing, um,

(44:01):
because we've invested in it, and um, even when it
doesn't make sense to continue. For example, if if we
go to a buffet and um, we're full, we don't
need to eat anymore, but often we'll still go back
and get more just because we want to get more value. Well,
we're not hungry anymore and we should just sort of

(44:23):
walk away, but that's still something that's kind of difficult
for us to resist. And what I hear in Travis's
story with regard to the frame is that this is
something that happened very quickly in the moment, and he
didn't think it was a very big deal. And lo
and behold, it turned out to be a much bigger deal,

(44:44):
not only in the um after effects at that time.
But here we are fifteen years later, and it's still
something that it sounds like is dogging him, and UM,
he'd like to be able to be through with it.
But it's also now I think UM giving him a purpose,
which is a is a good making a good thing

(45:04):
out of something that's difficult. Travis, tell us and talk
to us a bit about the decision you made to
talk about decision making and to to use your experience
as to try to help people make better decisions. How
did that happen? Um, First of all, took time. It
wasn't It wasn't something that happened overnight, for sure, because

(45:27):
I was more so upset with myself because I allowed
myself to get put in those positions, in those situations.
I was raised better than that. But it happened. And
then once it happened, then now you have to deal
with the after effects in regards to the perception and
how people perceive you because of your stafy. Like I
didn't play basketball, I don't think this story or people
wouldn't even know about these things that even happened. Unfortunately,

(45:50):
um but they did, and some much competitive instance. I
don't like losing. So it's more so like, Okay, I'm
not going I'm not giving up a life because I
still have to have kids to have an obligation to do.
Um So, how can I turn this thing around? How
can I basically recycle this mess that I've created and
made and turned this something positive? I said, Okay, so
because I still deal with a lot of pain, a

(46:12):
lot of pain that I've called because there were other
people involved in these situations, and um so, how can
I turn a bad situation intel positive? So? I said,
if I go around and share and I wrote, I
wrote a story. I wrote my stories in the books
and books, and I go around and speak and I
and I share my story, but not just athletes but
individuals period. But I know if I can help at

(46:34):
least one person not make those same choices, it can
help them through our their journey. Now they can now
and I can share my story and make them understand like, look,
if you make this choice, this is the probable outcomes
of that. This is what I went through trust me,
you do that want to go down this road because
it is a possible outcomes. There was a time I
couldn't work in certain places or deal with certain things

(46:57):
or opportunities because of my past and my wreck. So
I'm like, let me tell my stories, let me share
my experison that instead of the other people do it
for me, and then let me try to help these
young people make better choices their lives, but they won't
miss out on opportunities like I did. So I felt
I was an obligation for me. Chris, can you offer
some perspective. It appears that Travis has didn't have done

(47:19):
an oppressive thing that maybe a lot of people don't
do after they make a decision that didn't turn out
too well, But he's almost seems to be embracing it
and trying to turn it into a positive. How do
you put that into perspection, into the perspective and the
decision making process and how you react to how it
the outcome of a decision. Well, so, first of all,
we we make a distinction between the quality of the

(47:41):
decision at the time that you make it and the outcome.
And people like to say consequences, but usually consequences are negative. Um,
so you can make a good decision and have a
bad outcome, that you can make a bad decision and
have a good outcome. UM. It sounds to me like
Travis recognizes that he not only made a bad decision,
but he had an even worse outcome than he expected.

(48:03):
And you know it, it takes some inner strength to
accept the situation and also to um make amends and
say you're sorry. And um, there's always an opportunity to
recognize when you have made a bad decision and you
don't want to repeat it. Um. And in this case,
he is even taking this that next step and trying

(48:25):
to help other people avoid having that consequence. So I
think that that's pretty admirable. Travis, can you recount any
It's it's theres A situation is when you've talked to
people about this about decision making. I've shared my story
a number of times two different individuals from all walks
of life. But people are shot that I'm in the

(48:47):
mental state that I am in right now because of
the things I've been through and um, and like I said,
it took time to prayer. It took uh, you know,
just talking to other individuals that you know probably been
through not something similar, but just been through things in
their lives that kind of like helped counsel me through

(49:09):
it um. And then, like I said, sports help me
out a lot of in regards to me being an
athlete and me happened to compete and never give up,
Like it helped me like not to give up. It
was times I wanted to give up. That's how bad
it was at times, because it seemed like I could
never get over the hunt because people was holding that
over my head. Opportunities I couldn't get because that was

(49:32):
holding over my head. I'm trying to make up for
what I did wrong, but people won't give me an
opportunity to So it's times like what was the point
of it still being here? Like what's the point. But
obviously kids, my kids, my daughter for for example, that
she's super loving and supercaring, and you know, it just
seemed like she knew and that she's young, so it
seemed like she knew when I was down and she's
just give me a hug or Daddy, I love you.

(49:53):
So that helped me to keep pushing forward. She helped
me to keep pushing forward, and I was just like,
I just can't give up. I can't quit. Tell us
what you're doing now with your life, how you're keeping
busy and you've got to You've got a podcast called
go Terrapins. Yes, so I have a company I started
a couple of a few years ago called Think First,
and I basically do one on ones. I do UM

(50:14):
group huddles with teams and individuals. I talked to parents,
I talked to players, I talked to other individuals. I
do life coaching. UM. Also, I'm working on the TV
series right now that's kind of catered around to Think
First aspect, taking some character and basically an athlete and
basically showing and describe and showing people their story and

(50:36):
what they deal with not just on the court, but
everything they get pulled adam off the court. We just
partnered with UH a nonprofit organization over in Zimbabwe that
we're sort of going over there next year. UM. And
they have after school program where they focus on basketball
but also talk about life skills and character building. We

(50:56):
do a food drive a partner of with the organization
called Food for Thought here based in Maryland. Oh yeah,
applaud you for coming on this segment. And being so
candid about your experiences, and it's nice to hear how
you're again using that to have some kind of a
positive effect on people. We wish you the best. I
definitely appreciate you guys, and I appreciate the opportunity to

(51:18):
be here and everything that you guys are doing. Thank you,
Thanks a lot. This podcast series is based on the
book Born Ready The Mixed Legacy of Lambis, published by
Go Grady Media. The series is produced by Go Grady
Media in partnership with Octagon Entertainment. This segment was produced
by Davon Grady and Don Marcus. It was written by
Dave and Grady and edited by Don Marcus. The narrator

(51:40):
was Davon Grady, with additional narration by Jamal Williams. Technical
production was provided by Octagon Entertainment. Production assistance was produced
by Kevin McNalty, Tina Quagliarda, Lauren Ros Georgia brun Casey Fair,
Jamal Williams, Chelsea Mannix and Enzo Alvaro Matt Dewhursts providing
the social media assistance special thanks to the University of

(52:02):
Maryland and American University From providing inserts. The Decision Education
Foundation is a content and promotional partner of this podcast series.
More information go to go graded Media dot com. This
has been a production of Go Graded Media in the
eight Side Network