Epilogue Pt 2 - Len Bias: A Mixed Legacy | The Importance of Making the Right Decision

Chris Spetzler, Executive Director of the Decision Education Foundation along with basketball coach Glen Farello and former Maryland basketball star Travis Garrison discuss the importance of good and bad decision making and how it has affected their careers in sports, with podcast producer Dave Ungrady.

 

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:01):
Joining in this episode are two people who have been
involved in basketball at the elite level. One is Glenn Farrello,
one of the top high school basketball coaches in the country.

Speaker 2 (00:12):
And I think the most important part of that decision
making a part. You've talked about life skills and the
bigger picture is you want to try to find a
way to not just talk at that and I talk
to when I give them some information that they could
actually think about instead of being another adult telling them
what to do or you know, the pitfalls of life.
We have a standing saying here of standards over a

(00:34):
femis right and kids get so kind of in the
feeling because sometimes the decision making fun is just a
eye product of that on the court and off the court.

Speaker 1 (00:42):
Also joining us in this episode is Travis Garrison. Travis
was a term from two thousand and two to two
thousand and six.

Speaker 3 (00:51):
You know, some of the coaches gave me video on
a biased and just saying his game and how good
he was, you know that just how he was, how
his church was, and how he was as a person.
It just took a world of his own and that
decision just it had a ripple effect throughout so much

(01:12):
even till this day of how that one choice affected
not just my Horner court situation, but how things happened
off the court as well. There was times I wanted
to give up. That's how bad it was at times,
because it seemed like I could never get over the hump.
I'm trying to I'm trying to make up for what
I did wrong, but people would't giving me an opportunity
to see. So it was times like what was the

(01:34):
point of still being here? And it's like I'm a
competitor in the sense I don't like losing. So it's
more so like, Okay, I'm not going I'm not giving
up on life because I still have to live. I
have kids and I have an obligation to do so
how can I turn this thing around?

Speaker 1 (01:51):
In this segment of led Bias A Mixed Legacy, Episode
two of Epilogue, the importance of making the right decisions.
This is Dave. I'm executive producer of this podcast series.
In this episode, we feature two people connected to basketball
and the legacy of len bias who have faced many
challenging decisions. In our first functional epilogue episode, we told

(02:17):
the stories of two students who used a number of
tools that helped them make an effective decision. For our
second functional Epilog episode of the series, we will expand
the decision making topic to involve basketball. After all, that
makes sense in a podcast series that focuses on the

(02:37):
legacy of len bias. We are using the tragic story
of bias as a teaching tool to better understand the
importance of making the right decision. Joining us in this episode,
as he did in the first epilogue, is Chris Bettsler,
the executive director of the Decision Education's Foundation. Chris is

(02:58):
a respected authority on the topic and he is a
national leader in the movement of decision education. The def
is a promotional partner in this podcast series. Chris will
be our point person for explaining the principles of effective
decision making. There is so much more to making the

(03:19):
right decision than simply telling people that you need to
make the right decision. Also joining in this episode are
two people who have been involved in basketball at the
elite level. One is Glenn Farrello, one of the top
high school basketball coaches in the country. His teams at

(03:40):
Paul the Sixth High School in Fairfax, Virginia have repeatedly
finished among the top twenty in the country over the
last two decades. Also joining us in this episode is
Travis Garrison. Travis grew up in the same county as Lenbias,
Prince George's county. Like Lenn, he played basketball at Maryland.

(04:03):
Travis was a terp from two thousand and two to
two thousand and six. He has overcome two assault convictions
and now is using his platform to help people make
better decisions with his program called The First Make the
Right Choice.

Speaker 2 (04:21):
From the Streets of Land.

Speaker 1 (04:24):
Few professions require as many in the moment decisions in
pressure situations as coaching in athletics, and one person very
familiar with those types of decisions is Glenn Farrello. Glenn
just finished his fifteenth season as head coach of the
boys basketball team at Paul the Sixth High School in Fairfax, Virginia.

(04:46):
Thirteen of Glenn's teams have been ranked in the top
twenty in the United States. In the Washington, DC area,
his teams have been ranked number one three times. More
than eighty of those he coached have played college basketball
and four have NBA experience. Glenn joins US today to
discuss the challenges of decision making related to coaching sports,

(05:10):
and we feel this portion of the episode will be helpful,
especially to all coaches who deal with the range of
decisions on a daily basis. And Glenn, before we get
started on decisions, you've made something a little timely. I
think you had four of your ex players in the
final four. Tell us who they were and what you

(05:32):
remember them as playing that Paul.

Speaker 2 (05:34):
Yeah, no, absolutely, We're going to say Brandon Slater was
a starter for Villanova, Jamie Roach, and Trevor Keels with Duke,
and then Anthony Harris with North Carolina. So those are
the four that were able to progress and make us
all proud, and they were actually part of a twenty
eighteen team that was a top ten in the country
and had a tremendous season for us here.

Speaker 1 (05:57):
It's got to feel good as a coach. Developed as
young players and now you see sort of the fruits
of those labors.

Speaker 2 (06:04):
Absolutely, absolutely, and they're all just wonderful kids too, and
how they conduct themselves, and I think that's a big
part of you know, our discussion about some decision making.
I think they've all made some really smart decisions of
how they've handled things and how the people around them
and their own value systems, because I think that plays
a big parton We always talk to our players about
their own value systems. We can talk about culture and identity,

(06:25):
uh any organization you're be part of, and we're going
to try to impress upon on the important of things
that own individual value system has got to be strong
and they get those they have to make those decisions
on a daily basis.

Speaker 1 (06:36):
Well. Values will be a key component of as we
talked about decision making, and it's one of the six
elements of the of the decision chain. And before we
get into those decisions, I wanted to first get your
thoughts and perspectives if you have any what you remember
about lend Bias. Did his story impact you or any
of your players, anything like that that you can recall
about Land and related to your experience.

Speaker 2 (06:57):
One of the biggest things I thought that happened for
as I moved from Ohio to Maryland the Silver Spring
in nineteen ninety three. So I think it was very
impactful for me as as a young coach to hear
the stories about Let's past that's when I started in
the business, and to the impact on my players as
time went along, I thought was very important they kind

(07:21):
of progressed as young young men. These kids nowadays, they
don't get enough credit for understanding their history of resport, right,
And because there's so much on social media, we talk
about the negativity of social media. I always try to
spin it and talk about the positivity too, and how
much they can learn and have access to information. So

(07:42):
the kids are much more understanding of past players. So
what's really interesting about Len's story is the cautionary tale
to it. The kids don't gloss over that. They see
the importance of that and how it is cut short.
This is a story that has back then was the

(08:04):
important from from discussing the real concerns and the dangerous
that that come with you be putting yourself in it
in this type of position, and that has not changed
over all these years. I think the finality of it, right,
This isn't a situation where you know, some some poor

(08:24):
decisions led to some bad times and then he recovered
from it. This one is there. There's a finality to it.
There's a real finality to it that you can't get
pass uh to when it's cut short. So I think
they're really I think they're really kind of uh curious,
uh if you will. Uh they know how good m
J was. They they obviously they and then here they

(08:46):
will hold on he might have been a version of
someone that would be in that stratosphere and they just
kind of look look at you, like kidding me, like
someone like that he could you know that was that's
a that's a that's a huge statement, right and then
for that to be like, well, we never found out,
we never got the chance to see it, you know.
So I think that uh, you know, and I think
too just as we look at the death of Kobe

(09:08):
over the last few years and the impact that has
on the kids and how important Kobe was to them,
and how they listened to all the messaging and they
want to listen to the interviews and they want to
they want to pay attention to the stories of Kobe.
I think in a different way, you know, in the
situation for Len, I think it still resonates to this day.

Speaker 1 (09:25):
Let's let's get into your decision making as a coach.
As I see it, coaching involves all the three main
types of decisions in the moment, spontaneous significant which is
more short term, and life shaping which is long term.
Explain to me the most important decisions you feel of
those three that involve coaching.

Speaker 2 (09:46):
We as coaches have to balance all three of them, right.

Speaker 3 (09:49):
Uh.

Speaker 2 (09:50):
In a game situation, you're gonna make a lot of
quick decisions. They think that it is something that you
have to find a way on a daily basis to
incorporate that into your daily life as a coach or
as a program. We do that a lot on the
front side of practices so that we'll uh uh, well,
for example, we'll use we'll have a later practice and
then we'll have a study whole time for the kids
to study. But then we'll have a team meeting. And

(10:11):
in those team meetings, yes, you can talk about your
day to day and what you need to do. And
I think the most important part of that decision making
as far as you talk about life skills and the
bigger picture, is you want to try to find a
way to not just talk at them. We want to
talk to them. You want to give them some information
that they can actually think about instead of being another
adult telling them what to do or you know, the

(10:31):
pitfalls of life not easy to do and you because
you just want them to kind of zone out, which
you know, I think we all understand why eighteen old
might do that, especially they had school all day long,
and here we are have another lecture about how to
live life.

Speaker 1 (10:44):
Right, Let's now bring in again Chris Spetzler, the executive
director of the Decision Education Foundation, a content partner in
this podcast series. Chris has been listening to our conversation. Chris,
can you can you offer some some comment about that
As we're talking about the different types of decisions that
coaches face, we mentioned the three Do you think anyone

(11:07):
is more important than the other?

Speaker 4 (11:10):
Well, I thought the distinction there between during the game,
you're in it and you want people to be in
the zone and they've already trained to do what's right
and shouldn't be thinking about it but should be following
the plays. And there are some in the moment decisions,
but they're at the level of who's out there and
what's the system and what's the right strategy in the moment.

(11:33):
But then outside of the game day, there's a lot
that happens in preparation and you spend time thinking and
deciding and figuring out what's the best way to go
in so that when you're in the moment, you're on
automatic and you're doing it the way that should be done.

Speaker 1 (11:50):
So not only are they training technically to be in
proficient basketball players and tactically, but mentally they're training their
brain to think quickly in the moment efficiently. Glenn, how
do you integrate into your sessions teaching the brain to
be good, to be effective on the moment decisions.

Speaker 2 (12:09):
Get their mindset right, Get their mind right as far
as how they're approaching today, then that decision making can
be better.

Speaker 3 (12:14):
Right.

Speaker 2 (12:15):
So like as we move into the practice time, if
they're not if your mind's not right, we're not gonna
be able to teach you and get yourself prepped to
make sure you're making the proper decisions on the court.
We have a saying here of standards over feelings, right,
and kids get so caught up in their feelings that
sometimes our decision making comor is just a byproduct of that.
On the court and off the court, human emotion is
going to come into it. So we want our standards

(12:36):
to be there. We have to push our feelings aside
for a second so they've can concentrate on the job
at hand. We're able to get them to think clearly
of what their purpose is and their enthusiasm for what
they're doing. Then they're much more accepting of some of
the decision making decision decisions that they have to make
on the court. Uh and in those real moments in
real time that they just go into, as Chris mentioned,

(12:56):
into just hey, it's in a moment you're making the
right decision because you've you've been prepared for this and
are not emotional about it.

Speaker 1 (13:02):
Chris Glenn brings up an interesting point about emotions and
in decision of making way often talk about head and heart,
But as I understand that that's more related to the
significant and life shaping decisions, does that apply as much
in the moment decisions. How you balance your head and heart?

Speaker 4 (13:22):
Well, just the way that the brain works, there's always
some level of balance of head and heart that's going on.
And by head we mean logic and reasoning, and by
heart we mean emotion. And you can't actually make decisions
when you don't have emotions because they're associated with your values,
it's what you want, So they're always both there and

(13:43):
the main thing is to be in a place where
you can harness that affect those emotions in order to
achieve something that is rationally what you want, and when
you are in a good decision state, you can do that,
and when you are when you've lost it. I think
everybody can see when an athlete is shaken, and it's

(14:05):
how do you get back in the zone so that
you can perform? And when someone totally loses it. If
you're in a rage, you're not in a position to
make a well reasoned choice, So how do you get
back in the place where you can?

Speaker 1 (14:20):
So, how do you let's say there's an athlete who's raised,
their emotions are out of control, how do they get
back into that state where they can be of a
recent state.

Speaker 4 (14:29):
I think it's much easier to see someone that isn't
in that state than to recognize it in yourself. And
that's typically when the coach pulls the person or they've
been ejected from the game, and then they have time
to think about it and come back to a place
where they're able to function again. If somebody is very
capable and they have some of the strategies that go

(14:52):
along with let's say mindfulness, and they're able to say okay,
so it's not just counting backwards from ten I need
to do something a little bit more complex, like multiply
by sevens and count that way, right, It's not you
got to do something that kicks it upstairs and slows
you down so that you can get in your zone.

(15:14):
And if we're talking about basketball, there are things that
people do that are routines that help them to get
that focus. I think that's most clear when they're at
the free throw line and people have a couple of
bounces that they do and they position themselves and they
get that focus and then they execute and they're still
uncertainty around it, and you want to get the best

(15:35):
percentages you can, but sometimes it just doesn't go in.
And I guess when we're talking about life shaping decisions,
just to go back to that, those are the things
that the students can do off the court that help
them to be great players. And so that whole category
of what it is that I'm eating and what it
is that is my training regimen, and how am I

(15:56):
approaching school and how am I approaching my relationships so
that when I come to the game, I'm where I
want to be and I can be the best player
that I can be for my team. And I really
like that comment standards over emotions. I thought that that's
a wonderful principle in a way of communicating something that's
very deep.

Speaker 1 (16:16):
Let's say a coach pulls a player whose emotions are
out a whack and they've got to control them. They've
got them on the bench and some maybe an assistant
coach is trying to talk the head coach is trying
to coach the game. What are some things, Chris, that
some tools they can use in that moment to try
to get that player to refocus and be more of
a recent person.

Speaker 4 (16:37):
Well, again, I would think that this is the sort
of training that you want to work with the players
off the court, so that then when they're in that situation,
they have something that they can refer back to that
they can use in that moment. You know these little
snow things with the glass where you shake it up

(17:00):
and then it's all over and then it settles down. Well,
that's something that people have done to help kids think
about their emotions and then they shake them up, and
then they want to they want to bring it and
have it all settled down and filter out, have them
be able to picture a place where they are calm

(17:24):
and in the zone or a moment when they had
it together and put themselves in that place so that
they can recognize that that's not where they are currently.
I guess the first thing is to be aware of
the situation that you're in and recognize that you need
to shift that, and then to have some strategies.

Speaker 1 (17:43):
Please explain how decision fitness ties into this situation, but
not only for in the moment decisions or getting somebody
out of that height and emotional moment, but also for
the other type of decisions as well.

Speaker 4 (17:56):
So when we see an individual who has lost it,
we know that they are hard to even control or
slow down talk to. They're just not with us. And
decision fitness is when you are centered. Your decision state
is as good as it can be in terms of

(18:16):
processing information, in terms of making reason judgments, in terms
of being clear on what your values are. And there
are plenty of situations where we know that that has
been impaired. There was the comment earlier from Glenn that
you've got students who often are in situations where they

(18:37):
think they're in a good place, but they may not be,
and you want to be able to help them to
see where they are outside of themselves. And we talk
about decision coaching where you help the students. You don't
tell them what to do, rather you help them to
reach their own conclusions based on reflecting back to them

(19:01):
the evidence that you see. And that may be kind
of the core thing that a coach brings because they
have such a strong relationship with the student or the
athlete and there's such a strong level of trust. But
as we know, young people are not interested in hearing

(19:22):
what an older person wants them to do or what
they should they should be doing right. They want to
conclude based on their own perspective, based on their own
evidence and their own values, what they feel is right
for them. And when those two things are aligned, that's
very powerful.

Speaker 1 (19:42):
What are some things you can do to be to
train to become a good as part of decision fitness
to be a good decision maker.

Speaker 4 (19:49):
There is a very strong similarity between the decisions in
coaching and athletics with the research that's been done in
emergencies that situations and intuitive decision making. And for example,
firefighters are often in a situation where they react and

(20:11):
do the right thing and save themselves when there was
information that would be hard to know what exactly caused
them to get out of that situation. You know, maybe
it was just a sense of feeling they heard something.
And so this is the standards versus emotions. There are
policies that are created by experts that have analyzed situations

(20:35):
that say, in these circumstances, act these ways, and so
that's what you do. You decide outside the situation, and
then you practice practice, practice. You train so that when
you're in that situation you do what's right naturally, but
you can't always guarantee the outcome that you want. And
so you spend time afterwards looking at the film and saying,

(20:57):
you know, if we had this opportunity again, I'd rather
you did this. What you did was pretty good, but
there was a better alternative, and I'd like you to be.

Speaker 3 (21:08):
Aware of it.

Speaker 1 (21:09):
Glenn, Can you try to recall when you've had a
player not thinking clearly because of their emotions, take them
out of the game. How do you comment down what
kind of things have you done?

Speaker 2 (21:17):
We had a young team, and we had a very
emotional team, and we had multiple guys that are like this,
and what makes them so good is the emotion, right,
I think a couple of things. I think one is
we always talk about playing for each other. So when
you make yourself accountable be part of something bigger than yourself,
you now know that you've got to kind of find
a way to get some where you need to because
you are emotional and you are in your own head.

(21:39):
So how do we get you out. Well, one of
the best ways to do it is the teammate, because
the teammate knows what you're going through. They're there to
support you. They are your brother, and they want to
help you get to where we need to. The assistant
coach's job is to remind them of the job at hand.
So if you can get back to okay, hey, I
know you're upset, I know where you're at right now,
but let's remind you of what we're trying to get
accomplished and what you want to get accomplished as a competitor,

(22:02):
not just what's best for the team, but also for yourself.
And so I think the best players are the ones
that can make that adjustment within the game, within a quarter,
within coming out and then maybe going back in, maybe
you have time to be able to get themselves to
be centered. So I think those are a couple of
different mechanisms, and we of course have things that's sayings
for the kids. You try to let them know when
things are going bad is badly poorly and just yell

(22:25):
out and next play, for example, so we all know
if I yell at next play a team that yell's
our next play just says, hey, move on from what
just happened. Let's get to the next play. Let's not
be worried about it. Even our best player, the player
of the year, Doug McDaniel, is a very emotional player
point guard five to ten. Going to Michigan, and Doug
plays with such emotion, and you want him to play
with emotion. You don't want to take that away from him.

(22:47):
So when he's in those moments to where he's frustrated
because things aren't going the way we want to, I
think just that communication, Hey, trust us, We're here to
help you. We're here to help you get to where
you want to. And we had a lot of comeback
victories this year or fourth quarter performances that were very
high level. After going through some struggles and frustrations, I
walked through a lot of scenarios of when here's all

(23:08):
the things that could possibly go wrong. Here's what I've
seen in the past. Some of you guys have never
been in playoff experiences. I've had, you know, twenty twenty
five years of them, so I've seen what works and
what doesn't. So I'm not telling you how to live,
but you're going to face somebody's experiences. So uh, being
able to relate to that getting your getting yourself to
a point where I need to make these corrections in

(23:29):
order for my performance to to to definitely elevate and
then help my team win.

Speaker 1 (23:33):
Chris, I guess that's a big part of getting that
mind in more of a recent state correct.

Speaker 4 (23:39):
Yeah, well, Glenn, I would ask you also, with some
of these athletes, is the best thing just to give
them some space?

Speaker 3 (23:47):
Yes?

Speaker 2 (23:48):
Yeah, Sometimes it just says, hey man, you're all right,
wrap them up right, high five of them. Hey man,
I'm gonna put you back in a couple mints. You know,
you know, get yeah, get get get your get yourself,
get yourself right. Other kids respond in a different way, right,
You got to know how to push the right buttons
and know who they are. Sometimes, you know, kind of
getting on them a little bit. What are you doing?

Speaker 1 (24:05):
Come on?

Speaker 2 (24:05):
We need you. It'll it'll they'll react with their it'll
appeel to the competitive nature of that player, and sometimes
that is what gets them goal because they do have
that chip on their shoulder about being an vetter, and
so sometimes you do kind of look at them and say,
come on, let's go. You're better than this, like and
it's like, oh yeah. So I do think there's sometimes
where you just leave them alone and let them figure
it out. And then one of my favorite things, I

(24:27):
just look at them like, go are you ready now?
Are you ready now? Because clearly I don't know what
you were doing before, and you can just put in
their emotion and they're like, yeah, coach, I got you now,
or like or they'll look at you like they're still
upset and I'm like, it's.

Speaker 1 (24:37):
Not ready yet. Anything you want to add to that, Chris,
What I.

Speaker 4 (24:42):
Heard Glenn say is that when you've got a relationship
with an athlete, you kind of know what it is
that's going to help them to center. And some kids
will be able to do it themselves and you just
want to give them the space and others need some
sort of an active cue that will help them to
remember what it is that works for them to get

(25:05):
them back into their best state for playing r a game.

Speaker 2 (25:09):
How many times I referenced, Hey, remember this game, you
did this, you came back, you had a tough time,
and then you turned it around in the second half
or the fourth quarter. You were so instrumental in what
we were doing. And you can see them going, yeah,
I have done this before. I have been here before,
but I can do this.

Speaker 1 (25:25):
Let's let's move on to more of the significant life
shaping decisions. Glenn, But what process do you have to
try to guide these kids and players through decisions that
are going to be more significant life shaping What college
colleges to consider, what colleges to choose. How do you
guide them through that process that long term the decision

(25:47):
making process.

Speaker 2 (25:48):
Yeah, so the first thing you actually make sure to
talk to all the kids about is the spotlight. Right
as competitors that a lot of the kids like the spotlight.
So I say you have a choice from the spotlight
to on you. You can use it for good and
it'll shine on you, or when you make more decisions,
it's going to burn you. You're going to be a
high level of basketball player if you're going to be
a college student athlete and have a full ride scholarship

(26:08):
available to you. Uh, there are certain things that you
just can down walk through and may and recover from.
Where other people can make poor decisions and then recover
from them. And then when you do make those decisions
and you do make more decisions that hurt you, how
is it you recover from them? And how you own
own it?

Speaker 3 (26:24):
Right?

Speaker 2 (26:24):
How do you own up to it and accept it
and then move on and let's not make excuses about it?
Will off in the reference, especially if a player has
some scholarship offers and have some relationships pready with college coaches. Well, hey,
if you were to play for Jay Wright at Villanova,
would you how do you think that your conduct right now?
How would that fit in? What's what are the things
you like about do?

Speaker 1 (26:44):
What do you like?

Speaker 2 (26:45):
What did you would you like about their culture and
identity that attracted you to them to say, hey, that's
my dream school, you know, because they're going to say
very positive things about whatever school happens to be, Uh,
what they're interested in, who they're interested in, and then
you walk them back into well how does that work?
Right now? How do you do you feel like you
are living that right now and with some of the
decisions you're making again academically, performance on the court, how

(27:07):
they're acting with their parents, how they're connecting with their coaches,
how coachable they are, their day to day work that
they put in. Here's what's going to take. Do you
think you're on the right path? Do you think you're
making the right decisions on a daily basis? You know
what you're eating, your what your weight training program happens
to be, how much how dedicated and committed you are
on a daily basis to get here. A lot of

(27:29):
kids like to do the sometimes thing right. Sometimes sometimes
I put their work in. Sometimes I work hard, sometimes
I'm in a good mood. Sometimes I can handle this.
And I always say that if you do that, sometimes
you win, sometimes you lose. And if you want to
be a sometimes player, you're probably not going to make it.
And decision making on a daily basis goes into that,
because at the end of the day, any kid will
tell you they know what it takes. It's just are
they willing to do what it takes. And that goes

(27:51):
into what we're talking about here is those decisions that
you do make are a reflection of are you willing
It's not that you don't know what needs to be done.
Are you willing to do those things that need to
be done?

Speaker 1 (28:03):
Chris six elements of the decision chain. We're talking about framing, values, reasoning, information, alternatives,
and commitment. Can you focus on a couple that are
most important or are they all equally important when they're
picking when they're making these kind of decisions.

Speaker 4 (28:19):
You know, he made some great points about a sometimes player, Well,
sometimes you win, sometimes you lose, and do you want
to be someone who's consistently winning, Well, then these are
the things that you've got to do. And the kids
know that they've got to do certain things in order
to perform at a certain level. So that's all about

(28:39):
the commitment and follow through if they know what's right.
The other thing also that the idea that a high
school student is very motivated by what's at the next
level and that they're looking up to the college students
and you can see what those individuals who are performing
at the highest level and come back to what it
is that I know to do in order to get

(29:01):
myself to that level.

Speaker 1 (29:03):
And I think it's important. This is a process. If
you're going to make the most effective decision. You're just
not going to think about it for a week or
a month. You're thinking about this, especially these long, these
life shaping and significant decisions. You're thinking about it over
time or period of time, and you go through the process.
And as you've mentioned in the past, Chris, it may
not be a good or a bad decision. You don't

(29:25):
know yet, but is it an effective decision. You're going
through the right process because you don't know how it's
going to turn out. In most cases, right.

Speaker 4 (29:33):
You can do everything right and still not achieve the
goal that you have and still not make that team. Now,
you did everything right, You did everything that was in
your power, and you faced an uncertainty and it didn't
go against you. So we make a distinction between the
decision and the outcome. You can make a good decision

(29:53):
and have a bad outcome. Well that's when you dust
yourself off and you go and do the same thing again,
And that takes some curve urge in some guts. If
you make a bad decision and you get a good outcome,
well you got lucky. It was stupid. Don't do it again.

Speaker 2 (30:09):
We have a saying in our program, I cannot guarantee
you success if you work hard, but I can guarantee
you failure if you don't. And yeah, and I think
that it just plays into that, right there is like
so many kids get caught up and like, well, I'm
trying to I'm doing this, I'm doing this, I'm doing this,
and I'm not seeing the immediate results. So why am
I can continue to do this? And it is you
have to continue to want to do this and be

(30:29):
consistent with it, and eventually it does. It does come
around your way.

Speaker 1 (30:33):
And we talked about head and heart, reason, feeling, what
makes sense, what feels right when you're making these decisions
about rosters. This is the head heavy, then the heart.
There's the heart heavy. You're the the head of that process.

Speaker 2 (30:45):
Yeah, there's a balance. And I think that as you
engage with a player, as you look at it from
just their perspective, you feel for them so much because
it matters so much to them, Right, And I think
I look at every I'm not sure did I make
the right decision? Like you know, did I did? I know,
I don't know, But I'm not going to get that
that person is going to look in the humanistic way

(31:06):
of building a roster and looking at your players that
I have all the answers and what I decided was
right because I've done it before. And so head heart,
I think you go back and forth.

Speaker 1 (31:15):
Churse anything you want to add to that. That those
last comments by Bike Glenn.

Speaker 4 (31:21):
What I heard Glenn say was that the hardest thing
that he has is to think about how to do
right by the individuals when he can't optimize for their values,
but he has to optimize for the whole group. And
he knows that he's going to make some decisions that
weren't the best, but then he's always learned.

Speaker 3 (31:43):
And was nobody's fault.

Speaker 1 (31:44):
But because he tried so and they cried them. But
before that he was tears of Joey.

Speaker 2 (31:50):
He was the boy you.

Speaker 3 (31:50):
Wouldn't doubt that he was going to make.

Speaker 1 (31:52):
For our next segment, we will talk with a former
University of Maryland basketball player who has overcome some profound
personal challenges and now promotes the importance of making the
right decisions. Travis Garrison grew up in Suitland, Maryland, just
outside the eastern border of Washington, d C. His home

(32:12):
was about ten miles from the neighborhood where Len Bias
grew up in Landover, Maryland. Garrison was two years old
when then Bias died. Like Len, he became a top
high school player and chose to play US college ball
at the University of Maryland. Travis joined US now, Travis,
thanks for taking the time.

Speaker 3 (32:32):
Thanks for having me. I really appreciate it.

Speaker 1 (32:34):
Tell us how Len Bias, if he had any impact
on you at all as a basketball player, how he
did so, and how you think of Len Bias related
to basketball.

Speaker 3 (32:45):
It started back when I was in high school and
his mom actually became as spoke at my church when
I was in my senior high school. You know, she
would go around and basically, you know, tell us story
to different churches and boos and to young kids basically
about you know, the decision he made and how I
packed it and impacted so much in her life and

(33:08):
her family's life, and then in the community. You know,
some of the assistant coaches gave me video on mister
Bias and just seeing his game and how good he was,
you know, and not just dad, just how he was,
how his church was that you know, how he was
as a person in his charisma and his character. And
I'm still learning to this day about how big of
an impact it made, not just on the court, but

(33:32):
just in the community Epic University of Maroon, how people
are still affected to this day by that.

Speaker 1 (33:40):
You had a pretty good career at Maryland through your
junior year in two thousand and five, you were one
of the leading scorers on the team. Two thousand and six,
your senior year didn't go as well as maybe you
would hope, I guess, And that was the year you
had your first assault charge. Can you tell us what
happened there and how that impacted your life.

Speaker 3 (33:57):
I try to go against the grain and in regardless too.
You know, I wanted people to look at me more
than just a basketball player.

Speaker 1 (34:04):
You know.

Speaker 3 (34:04):
I try to be more sociable and hang out with
the student body more, and not just around athletes, because
you know, the athletes kind of had a wrapped in
the sense of on campus, like you know, we were jocks,
so we was cocky or arrogant, so I was you know,
I just wanted to show people that we were just
regular people. Like so I used to go out my
way sometimes just to be more involved in the student body,

(34:27):
and you know, go to parties and hang out It's interesting.
You know. It's one particular time when I did get
in trouble, we wasn't even spol to be out at
the bars. You know, we got a coach told us
that we weren't allowed at the bars to hang out.
I used to hang out in my room a lot,
and I used to you know, drink a lot in
my room and then I'll go hang out. In this

(34:49):
particular time, you know, I was going through stuff mentally,
you know, coming off of injury. So I just wanted
to go hang out. And I kind of went down
to the bars and you know, like I normally do,
just kick it with the the student body, and then
I got into an altercation, small altercation with a young
lady at the bar. The altercation invested about one minute,

(35:11):
then like about one minute, and then you know, I left,
and I thought that was the end of it, and
then things kind of spread out of control. I was
highly intoxicated, but that was no excuse to my actions.
And then, like I said, it just took a world
of his own, and that decision just it had a

(35:32):
ripple effect throughout so much even till this day of
how that one choice affected not just my owner court
of situations, but how things happened off the court as well,
you know, And at that time I was young, I
didn't understand everything. I thought was just a small incident
that had a big effect not just you know, on

(35:53):
my basketball career, but also as other opportunities that was
presented to me after my his career as well.

Speaker 1 (36:01):
And that must have been a challenging time, I would imagine,
especially with your frame of mind. For clarification purposes, report
said that you grabbed her and slapped her. Was that accurate?

Speaker 3 (36:10):
No, it was not accurate. And and the thing is,
around that time, you know, I was told to not
say anything. It allowed for that story to come out
the way it did, which was I think probably the
worst thing that could happened to me at that time,
you know, because like I said, you know that perception.
You know, first of all, your woman beat her, and

(36:31):
you you you you physically assault women in all kinds
of ways. So that incident didn't happen the way that did,
and it was It's interesting because it came on the papers.
My phone was ringing off the hook off that and
so like, and then the draft was two days after
the court. You know, I thought I was going to

(36:51):
court just to try to hurry up and get it
over with. But it had an effect on me even
having opportunities with NBA teams. NBA teams stop calling. I'm
even affected some of my overseas opportunities. You know that
I was about to sign a contract for good money overseas. Now,
I'm not saying that I'm innocent in all this because

(37:13):
there was an altercation, but did it go down the
way it was explained and the papers know, But I
did step out of line. I did go a little
too far, and that's what was the effect of it.
You know, First of all, I shouldn't have been down there,
I said, I shouldn't have been as intoxicated as I was.
You know, it was a major learner lesson, and I

(37:37):
still teach on it and talk about it to the
day is now and it's more so. Okay, I can't
go back and change that. But what can I do
now going forward? How can I help other student athletes
or other individuals to uh to think about these choices
before they make them, and how that if you don't,
how that one choice canna have a ripple effect, not
just for tomorrow, next week or next morning twenty years

(38:00):
I shared those stories to try to help other individuals
to really comprehend and see how your actions could be
so detrimental to your future and other opportunities that you
would like to have that you could possibly have if
you didn't make bad choices.

Speaker 1 (38:18):
Because there was another assault conviction if I'm correct on
like twenty fifteen, can you clarify what happened there and
if it was because it was a conviction, not a
not a charge, so and how was that different, if
at all, from the first charge first conviction.

Speaker 3 (38:34):
We're all friends, so shouldn't even went that far in
regards to going into court. Everything was kind of everything
was handled outside of court, and once they found out
who I was, it was out of everybody's hands at
the time, and they felt as though they wanted to
proceed and push forward because of who I was and

(38:55):
me being a former running player. And I said not
to say that I was innocent, but it got it
blew up a little bit more than it it should have.

Speaker 1 (39:05):
Well, Travis, I think it's fair to say that you're
in a position from experience to talk about some decisions
that you made that didn't work out too well and
let's segue from that thought to bring in now Chris Spetzler,
who is the executive director of the Decision Education Foundation.
Chris is an expert in explaining ways to use tools

(39:26):
that can help you make the right decision. For the
purposes of our conversation with you, Travis, we're going to
try to focus on the in the moment decision aspect
of this.

Speaker 4 (39:35):
Listening to you, Travis, it sounds like there are some
real similarities in your experience with the decision that len
Bias made, insofar as I bet that at the time
that he was making his decision he didn't realize how
big a consequence might have come along with it. And

(39:57):
we talked about decision traps and and that one of
the big things in terms of thinking about our decision
frame is that we don't perceive things that are outside
of our frame.

Speaker 3 (40:10):
I I because of my action and then their action
which wasn't never spoken about in the paper that provoked
my action. I didn't think anything will come of it.

Speaker 1 (40:22):
But I didn't a fair to sight, Travis.

Speaker 3 (40:24):
She didn't respond kindly to what you did, so she
pushed from my face, and my reaction was I like
smoothed her ahead, I smooth, I didn't smack her. After
I left the bar and I went to my room,
I thought that was the end of it. Could that
happened in October. I didn't get charges pressed against me
until January, so I didn't think anything was going to

(40:46):
come of it, and didn't I didn't think anything was
going to come of it years or after I left Maryland.

Speaker 4 (40:52):
Yeah, And I would think that that's one of the
things that you're trying to get across to youth, and
that's something that we want with decision an education foundation
is for people.

Speaker 3 (41:02):
To be able to have a.

Speaker 4 (41:06):
Broader view of how their decisions can have longer term
consequences than what they see in the current situation. The
other thing that I hear going on is we have
a concept called decision fitness, and I think we all
know situations where we are a decision unfit, which includes
when we're just in a rage, we can't think clearly,

(41:28):
we can't be rational. But then with alcohol, we've got
confidence that goes up and self control that goes down
or capacity that goes down. And it sounds to me
like even when you went into this situation, you were
already in a situation where you were kind of decision unfit.

Speaker 3 (41:49):
I definitely wasn't sober minded. I would have handled the
things a lot differently, so that definitely did play a factor.
But I can't as an excuse me a.

Speaker 4 (42:01):
Decision culture in this case.

Speaker 3 (42:03):
It might even be just a decision. Friend.

Speaker 4 (42:06):
Did you have anybody that was with you that that
could have stepped in and helped you to to settle down?

Speaker 3 (42:15):
It happened so fast, somebody did step in for so
at times they saw what happened, they already got me
out the door too late.

Speaker 4 (42:23):
Well, what I what I also like to hear is
that it sounds like you've you've recognized that this is
something in the past, and you've put it behind you
and you're not letting the sunk costs keep you down.

Speaker 3 (42:38):
Yes, I mean it's been challenging because sometimes given my
background regards to basketball and things I'm trying to do now,
it seems to always get brought up because when a
lot of times people don't know you ain't trying to
do business or they trying to get to know you,
they google you. So when they google you, they find
out things about your past and then they they they

(43:00):
get this preconceived notion. I believe that this is my
calling and this is my purpose. So regardless of you know,
people that don't want to deal with me because of
my past, I can that hinder me or stop me
from going forward in regards to because of that. For example,
I have to teach these younger people that look what's
going on with me, or look what happened with me
because of my past actions.

Speaker 1 (43:23):
Chris, you mentioned a couple of things technically that are
related to decision making, a frame and decision sunk costs.
Can you elaborate a little bit, so not only Travis,
but everyone can understand what you mean when he went
outside his frame and then the sun costs of his actions.

Speaker 4 (43:41):
Well, so the decision frame is what's the decision we're
making at the time, and often the decision that we're
making or we think that we're making, isn't the one
that is most consequential. And the sunk cost is when
we continue to do some thing because we've invested in it,

(44:03):
and even when it doesn't make sense to continue. For example,
if we go to a buffet and we're full, we
don't need to eat anymore, but often we'll still go
back and get more just because we want to get
more value. Well, we're not hungry anymore and we should
just sort of walk away. But that's still something that's

(44:25):
kind of difficult for us to resist. And what I
hear in Travis's story with regard to the frame is
that this is something that happened very quickly in the moment,
and he didn't think it was a very big deal.
And lo and behold, it turned out to be a
much bigger deal, not only in the after effects at

(44:48):
that time. But here we are fifteen years later, and
it's still something that it sounds like is dogging him
and he'd like to be able to be through with it.
But it's also now I think giving him a purpose,
which is a is a good making a good thing
out of something that's difficult.

Speaker 1 (45:06):
Travis, tell us talk to us a bit about the
decision you made to talk about decision making and to
to use your experiences to try to help people make
better decisions. How did that happen?

Speaker 3 (45:22):
First of all, took time. It wasn't It wasn't something
that happened overnight, for sure, because I was more so
upset with myself because I allow myself to get put
in those positions and those situations. I was raised better
than that, but it happened. And then once it happened,
then now you have to deal with the after effects
in regards to the perception and how people perceive you

(45:44):
because of your stuffy. If I didn't play basketball, I
don't think this story or people wouldn't even know about
these things that even happened. Unfortunately, but they did in
some competitive in the sense I don't like losing. So
it's more so like, Okay, I'm not going I'm not
giving up on life because I still have to be
able to have kids and I have obligation to do.
So how can I turn this thing around? How can
I basically recycle this mess that I've created and made

(46:07):
and turned in some positive? I said, okay, so because
I still deal with a lot of pain, a lot
of pain that I've caused, because there were other people
involved in these situations, And so how can I turn
a bad situation into a positive? So I said, if
I go around and share and I wrote, I wrote
a story, I wrote my stories in the book in books,

(46:28):
and I go around and speak and I and I
share my story with not just athletes, but individuals period.
But I know if I can help at least one
person not make those same choices, it can help them
through our their journey. Now I can share my story
and make them understand like, look, if you make this choice,
these are the probable outcomes of that. This is what
I went through. Trust me, you do I want to

(46:50):
go down this road because these are possible outcomes. There
was a time I couldn't work in certain places or
deal with certain things or opportunities because of my past
and my record. So I'm like, let me tell my stories,
let me share my experiences instead of let other people
do it for me, and then let me try to
help these young people make better choices in their lives,
for they won't miss out on opportunities like I did.

(47:12):
So I felt I was an obligation for me.

Speaker 1 (47:14):
Chris, can you offer some perspective? It appears that Travis
have done an oppressive thing that maybe a lot of
people don't do after they make a decision that didn't
turn out too well, but he almost seems to be
embracing it and trying to turn it into a positive.
How do you put that into perspection, into the perspective
and the decision making process and how you react to

(47:35):
the outcome of a decision.

Speaker 4 (47:37):
Well, so, first of all, we make a distinction between
the quality of the decision at the time that you
make it and the outcome. And people like to say consequences,
but usually consequences are negative. So you can make a
good decision and have a bad outcome. That you can
make a bad decision and have a good outcome sounds
to me like Travis recognizes that he not only made

(47:59):
a bad decision, but he had an even worse outcome
than he expected. And you know, it takes some inner
strength to accept the situation and also to make amends
and say you're sorry. And there's always an opportunity to
recognize when you have made a bad decision and you

(48:19):
don't want to repeat it. And in this case, he
is even taking this next step and trying to help
other people avoid having that consequence. So I think that
that's pretty admirable.

Speaker 1 (48:31):
Travis, can you recount any situation where you've talked to
people about this about decision making.

Speaker 3 (48:38):
I've shared my story a number of times to differ
individuals from all walks of life, but people are shocked
at I'm in a mental state that I am in
right now because of the things I've been through, And
like I said, it took time to prayer, It took

(49:01):
you know, just talking to other individuals that you know,
probably been through not something similar, but just been through
things in their lives that kind of like help counsel
me through it. And then, like I said, sports helped
me out a lot in regards to me being an
athlete and me happened to compete and never give up,
Like it helped me like not to give up. It

(49:22):
was times I wanted to give up. That's how bad
it was at times, because it seemed like I could
never get over the hump because people was holding that
over my head. Opportunities I couldn't get because that was
holding over my head. I'm trying to make up for
what I did wrong, but people wouldn't giving me an
opportunity too. So it was times like what was the
point of still being here? Like what's the point. But
obviously kids, my kids, my daughter for example, that she's

(49:45):
super loving and super caring, and you know, it just
seemed like she knew when I she's young, so it
seemed like she knew when I was down and she's
just give me a hug or Daddy, I love you.
So that helped me to keep pushing forward. She helped
me to keep pushing forward, and I was just like,
I just can't give up. I can't quit.

Speaker 1 (50:00):
Tell us what you're doing now with your life, how
you're keeping busy. You've got a You've got a podcast
called go Terrapins.

Speaker 3 (50:06):
Yeah. So I have a company I started a couple
of a few years ago called Think First, and I
basically do one on ones. I do group huddles with
teams and individuals. I talk to parents, I talk to players,
I talk to other individuals. I do life coaching. Also,
I'm working on the TV series right now that's kind

(50:26):
of catered around the Think First aspect, taking some character
and basically an athlete and basically and described and showing
people their story and what they deal with not just
on the court, but everything that get pulled Adam off
the court. We just partner with a non proper organization
over in Zimbabwe that we saw you going over there

(50:47):
next year and they can have after school program where
they focus on basketball but also talk about life skills
and character building. We do a food drive. A partner
with the organization called Food for Thought here based in Maryland.

Speaker 1 (51:02):
Oh yeah, applaud you for coming on this segment and
being so candid about your experiences, and it's nice to
hear how you're again using that to have some kind
of a positive impact on people. We wish you the best.

Speaker 3 (51:15):
I definitely appreciate you guys, and I appreciate the opportunity
to be here and everything that you guys are doing.
Thank you, Thanks a lot.

Speaker 5 (51:22):
This podcast series is based on the book Born Ready
The Mixed Legacy of Lemby's, published by.

Speaker 2 (51:27):
Go Grady Media.

Speaker 5 (51:28):
The series is produced by Go Graded Media in partnership
with Octagon Entertainment. This segment was produced by Dave Young
Grady and Don Marcus. It was written by Dave Grady
and edited by Don Marcus. The narrator was Dave Ungrady,
with additional narration by Jamal Williams. Technical production was provided
by Octagon Entertainment. Production assistance was produced by Kevin mcnelty,

(51:49):
Tino Quagliata, Lauren Ross, Georgia Brown, Casey Fair, Jamal Williams,
Chelsey Mannix, and Enzo al Varenda. Matt dehers Is providing
the social media assistance. Special thanks to the University of
Maryland and American University for providing inservice. The Decision Education
Foundation is a content and promotional partner of this podcast series.

(52:10):
For more information, go to gogradingmedia dot com. This has
been a production of go grading Media and the Eighth
Side Network