May 16, 2023 • 33 mins
The podcast series continues with new episodes by releasing the full length interviews from the series. The first interview episode is with Dorothy Gaines. Dorothy is an example of the cruel and harsh mandatory minimum sentencing laws introduced following the death of Len Bias. Dorothy recounts her story with executive produce Dave Ungrady.
Dorthy featured prominently in Episode 8 where the series profiled her and others whose lives were turned upside down by mandatory sentencing.
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:02):
As an extension of the podcast series, the producers would
like to share the full interviews of our subjects from
the series. Their accounts and memories offer a fascinating look
into the legacy of Len Bias. We begin the interview
series with a look at the effects of the drug
laws that were changed following the death of Bias. Dave Ngrady,
(00:22):
executive producer of the series, interviews Dorothy Gaines, a victim
of overzealous prosecution and mandatory minimum sentencing which sent her
to prison for a crime she did not commit. Dorothy
shares her personal and tragic family story on how the
death of Len Bias shook her family to the core
and how it still continues to affect their lives to
(00:44):
this day. Dorothy is one example of the thousands of
lives that were affected by the changes of the criminal
justice system due to the War on Drugs and the
drug related death of Len Bias.
Speaker 2 (00:57):
And let's start really from the beginning, how your life
was changed following the arrests, why you were arrested, at
least what law enforcement claimed, and then and then we'll
go from there.
Speaker 3 (01:13):
In nineteen ninety three, Alabama law enforcement claimed that I
knew about some drug dealing going on. They came into
my house and raided and there was nothing. That was
Alabama court and then after Alabama court and you know,
Alabama don't send you to trial unless you have evidence,
but the Pharoh government does with conspiracy. So it was
(01:36):
turned over to the faiths. And that's how it all
started in nineteen ninety three.
Speaker 2 (01:41):
And can you explain why Alabama law enforcement felt compelled
to search your home. You had a relationship with a
gentleman I think who was dealing here.
Speaker 3 (01:51):
You have relationship with a dealer name at that time
was my comradide husband. He was more as a user
than a drug person that was dealing drug. He was
a user, but he knew some guys that was into
that type of business. He testified that I knew anything,
that I didn't know anything about what was going on.
But they still even offer him to be released of
(02:13):
the fourteen years and he would just testify against me,
and he refused to do that.
Speaker 2 (02:18):
Tarbor called the Alabama prosecutors decided not to prosecute you, correct,
because they didn't have no right.
Speaker 3 (02:25):
I didn't have any They didn't have an el say,
Alabama didn't prosecute me. The case was then later the
federal government picked it up.
Speaker 2 (02:32):
And tell me what you recall about the trial when
the federal government process charges against you, and how and
what happened there what you thought was for some injustices
there as well.
Speaker 3 (02:46):
Okay, during the trial and we went to trial at
nineteen ninety, but it started off with they came and
arrest me, and I went and made a magist de bond,
signed my own recovernists and I was on pre trial,
had a group report with the probation office on pre trial.
Then I ended up going to trial with like four
(03:07):
other people, and I begged them let me go to
trial alone, but they wouldn't let me go to trial,
or they tried me with four other people. And one
of the people they tried me was was a young
lady that was working out of macdone's, and it was
a guy there in the trial that say that he
had bought an ouncer crack cocaine from her and the juror.
They asked him to point out the woman that he
(03:28):
bought the ouncer print cocaine from, and he pointed out
a juror. So we just knew the trial was gonna
be thrown out because he didn't Nobody had never seen
this guy. They had brought in the testifact. It was
just somebody after jail that they brought in and he
picked out a juror, so we thought the trial was
gonna be thrown out. And there it is. That prosecutor
told me that when the guy saw the lady the
(03:48):
last time, she was heavy. And you know how the
prosecuted just try to and they went on and bought
and the trial set up again, you know, went on.
So that day I testified that I knew nothing about it.
Even the guy that I was living with test about it.
I knew nothing about what was going on that I was,
you know, worked, and I never knew that he was
(04:09):
a drug dealer, a user. He testified to that, and
that's when, you know, everything, My judge, everybody got involved.
So they ended up blocking me up. My judge, so no,
I'm gonna let her go home because my mother was
suffering from cancer. So he let me go home and
stay until time for me to be sentenced. March ten
or nineteen ninety five is when I was sentenced in
(04:29):
nineteen years and several months, and that's when my son
jumped in, The judge left, and the FBI and the
martials had to pry him out. The judge left and
the judge was crying. He did not want to send
me to prison, and that relationship started being You know,
the judge was the one that wrote a letter to
the president.
Speaker 4 (04:46):
Oh, I didn't know that, Yes, same what that You.
Speaker 3 (04:51):
Know, it was just a few lines. I can get
the letter. I have it in my file, just a
few lines. He said that, you know, this was the
case that he was compelled to do this for it
was his first time he ever doing it, and the
prosecute was just blow because they couldn't believe that he
wrote a letter.
Speaker 4 (05:05):
To the president.
Speaker 2 (05:08):
Your son. Let's go back to your family a little bit.
Tell me about what your family life was like, or
what your life was like before the arrest. You had
children before the rest.
Speaker 3 (05:18):
Yeah, before the arrest, my life was I thought was perfect.
I mean I did everything in the book because my children.
Father died when my son was two and my daughter
was three. That's when he had a massapont i taking
the age of thirty two years old, so it just
me and my kids, and Natasha was eight. Natasha is
my oldest child. So with just a threell we had
(05:41):
a lovely life. You know, I did nothing that I
always set up myself, Dave, that I did nothing unless
my children was involved. I never drink. I've never been
to a club in my life. Everything I did I
did it with my children. Boy scout, girls, scout, uh,
going to movies. Everything involved my children. So this was
a big setback when I left my kids and they
(06:03):
were the only you know, I was the only painter,
not just I was the only parent of my kids.
Hed my mother was stuffed from cancer.
Speaker 4 (06:11):
And what kind of work were you doing at the time.
Speaker 3 (06:13):
I was working at the hospital as a nurse, so
I you know everything that went down the drain at
that moment.
Speaker 2 (06:21):
What what can you tell us about your connection to
this gentleman who had who was using drugs?
Speaker 4 (06:27):
What was he just a friend? Was he? Why would
they think that he was my guy?
Speaker 3 (06:31):
He was my guy friend. Let me tell you something
about him. You would never have known he was a user.
He was what you call a he works every day
every day, clean cut. You never would he was what
you call a closet user. You didn't You could not
tell he used drugs. Bias Yeah, you could not tell
he used drugs. To this day, you would never have
(06:54):
nobody everybody was surprised that he was a drug user.
Speaker 4 (06:58):
And explain again that connection.
Speaker 2 (07:00):
Did that connection impact you being uh?
Speaker 4 (07:06):
Law enforcement coming after you? Is that what that was
the big reason that.
Speaker 3 (07:09):
That was a connection. That was a connection that law
enforcement come after me and my daughter's grandmother, my daughter's
oldest daughter, Natasha grandmother, her son testified against her, and
natasha father testified against me and his mother and she
was like sixty some years old and she went to prison.
(07:30):
So yeah, there was a whole type of connection.
Speaker 2 (07:31):
Yes, tell us again what happened with your how old
your son was? Can you relive that moment in court
when when you were convicted and how he reacted?
Speaker 3 (07:43):
Uh, my son was magews and when I was twenty
years to live in the pool.
Speaker 5 (07:57):
And my son and mess every sister the day.
Speaker 4 (08:03):
H y.
Speaker 6 (08:10):
Ever since that day I went to prison, we j
be living picked up. Don't send me to prison. He
has been missed from ever. He's not in prison doing
forty he.
Speaker 4 (08:24):
H h.
Speaker 3 (08:33):
So my life has just been tore up ever since
that day. H.
Speaker 4 (08:43):
What what were the what were the charges against your
son that he's in prison now.
Speaker 3 (08:49):
Robbery. He got a little drugs, real bad when he
was young. Mhm.
Speaker 2 (09:01):
And how much of how much of his behavior do
you figure as related to what happened to you?
Speaker 3 (09:06):
One hundred percent? My son tried to kill himself while
I was gone. He set himself, but he took over
those He did everything.
Speaker 5 (09:20):
To not leave.
Speaker 2 (09:26):
I was aware he was if he had challenges, Dorothy,
I didn't realize it was that hard.
Speaker 4 (09:31):
I'm sorry, yes O. How often do you talk with
him or communicate with him?
Speaker 3 (09:46):
Every other day? I tried to communicate him every the
other day. My son stay out, was stay up fifteen times?
Why he been gone? He was stay up fifteen times?
And did a sometime. He got his stroke cut last year.
Speaker 4 (10:05):
While in prison. Well in prison did me?
Speaker 3 (10:08):
And his daughter was going to see him and we
almost got killed going to see him in bad COURRCT.
He has one child and she's now trying to commit
suicide last month herself.
Speaker 2 (10:26):
Who Dorothy. As you're talking through this and we're listening
to this, it's pretty hard to hear. But how are
you how do you keep all this? How do you
keep it together?
Speaker 4 (10:36):
With all this? What is your what is your foundation
of what keeps you going?
Speaker 3 (10:43):
Just hoping one day is going one day we can
have enjoyment of seeing each other again on the outside.
It's just been like I've been in prison for the
last thirty years. It's been like prison.
Speaker 7 (11:00):
Hm.
Speaker 2 (11:05):
Oh lord, Can you tell me about the rest of
your family, how they're doing and and and I know
how from talking with you over.
Speaker 4 (11:21):
The last.
Speaker 2 (11:23):
A couple of years that you're taking care of some
of your grandchildren.
Speaker 4 (11:28):
Correct, Is that correct?
Speaker 3 (11:29):
Yes? I'm uh Phillip's daughter, uh Taylor, and my my
daughter that when I went to prison, char Or, she's
she was eleven at that time, and she was molested
by a family member that has got her so messed
up that she's on drugs and alcohol as well. So
I'm having to help take care of for her kids.
(11:53):
All that happened while I was inconcentrated. She was right
by a family member.
Speaker 4 (11:58):
I'm sorry, who was your daughter?
Speaker 3 (12:01):
Yeah, Charro the level when she was eleven at the
time I went to prison, and you know, mentally, it
messed with her a lot, and so she started drinking
and started doing drugs as well. So she has four children,
(12:23):
So I just I know I ain't no guests, That's
why God keeping me here, is why COVID. I mean, hey,
it's a reason for my life. Hopefully one day I'll
see the sun shame.
Speaker 4 (12:37):
And who cares for your Who cares for your children?
Where they were adults? But are they.
Speaker 2 (12:43):
You're helping care to be clear, helping care for their
their children as best you can?
Speaker 4 (12:47):
Correct?
Speaker 3 (12:47):
Yes, yes, yes, it's a hard journey. But I'm trying
to do.
Speaker 4 (12:53):
With how are you? How are you doing that? What
do you because you're not able to work? You're not working? Correct?
Speaker 3 (13:00):
No, I'm not working. I don't think I get an
SSI disability.
Speaker 4 (13:05):
Okay, let's talk a bit. When you were incarcerated, what
did you do?
Speaker 2 (13:16):
I'm I think it's fair to say that you felt
you were unjustly convicted? Of course, what did you do
to try to first deal with the fact while you
were in prison that you don't felt you shouldn't have
been there? And secondly, what did you do to try to,
if anything, fixed your situation?
Speaker 3 (13:38):
I start well, when I went to I went to
FRISM and I started writing out, I started calling out,
and I remember I got in touch with jeded Reno
and I was explaining them on a letter about what
had went down did It wasn't fair. How could I
be charged with something I never done? And and I
remember her office writing me back, and I end up
still writing and writing. And then when I went to prison,
(14:01):
I wrote letters and different people from all over England
would get my got my story. They send somebody over
here to do a film about how they were sending
American people to prison on conspiracy. They did that when
I was in Mariana prison in nineteen ninety nine. They
sent somebody from England. Then different magazines like Marie Clair
(14:23):
and Ebony Essence. And you know, Philip was in the
last book that JFK put out before he got killed
in the plane crack. The story about him was in
that book called Joege the last book that was put out.
They wrote a story about him in that book. I
mean it just I just sent in prison. I just
(14:44):
I didn't go to prison. I just put simp there.
I just let myself write in prison, knowing that I
needed my children needed me, So I started writing out
and begging for help on outside. I started begging for
help for somebody, some organization to take hold of my
son and be a mentor. But I and get that
part of it. But I did. People did start writing
out about my story and doing a lot of things.
Speaker 4 (15:06):
So while you were in prison, you were doing all this,
did you darthy? Did you think that you were going
to be in there for a really long time? Like, uh,
were you gonna do your you were gonna it was.
Speaker 3 (15:16):
A mindset thing. I kept saying every day, I was
not going to do that time. I kept telling the
officers that I was not going to do that time.
And I remember one day I kept on talking. I said,
I'm going home, and they sent me to the site ward.
They said I was losing my mind because I had
twenty years. How was I going home? And I said,
I'm going home. I'm gonna fight my case. I'm going home,
(15:37):
and they sent me to the site war.
Speaker 2 (15:41):
Did you when you got arrested, when you were convicted
you did you understand what the laws were and how
it related to the death of Len Bias at that time?
Speaker 4 (15:51):
Did you know who Lenn was? Did you know any
of that?
Speaker 1 (15:54):
No?
Speaker 3 (15:54):
I did not know. No, I did not.
Speaker 4 (15:58):
When did you finally become aware of that?
Speaker 3 (16:01):
I remember reading about uh, Lenn biased. I think it was.
I don't know what was Eric was talking about it
when that's when everybody was running and jumping and lend biased.
They didn't really look into the law. They were just
upset because Lynn had od and they just changed the law.
And he said, like overnight, Oh that was that was? Uh?
Speaker 4 (16:24):
Oh, yes, okay.
Speaker 2 (16:25):
But when did you When did you become aware of
Len's history and how his death affected Uh?
Speaker 3 (16:32):
While I was inconcentrated, because I knew nothing about any
of this before I went to prison. That's why I
was the person to try to read now and let
people know, you gotta be knowledge of us stuff. But
before I knew nothing about conspiras. I knew nothing about
practic cocaine. I knew nothing about any of it.
Speaker 2 (16:51):
Did you find out about him just reading about it
while you were in prison?
Speaker 4 (16:55):
Is that what you're.
Speaker 3 (16:56):
Saying, Yeah, I found out about I was convicted. I
didn't know any thing about You.
Speaker 4 (17:00):
Know this.
Speaker 2 (17:02):
And how did it? How did that make you feel
when you found that out?
Speaker 4 (17:05):
Did you.
Speaker 2 (17:08):
Enough that there was a whole lot you could do
at that point beside what you were doing? But did
you think about that and said, why you know this
doesn't make sense? Or did you have any kind of
reaction to that?
Speaker 3 (17:17):
Well, yea, I have a reaction to it because the
thing about the way I looked at with crack cocaine,
it's just like with a chicken. You can take a chicken,
you can boil it, fry, barbecue, and bake it, but
when it all boil down, it's a chicken. And it's
the same way with crack, cocaine and powder. They give
you more time for having crack cocaine and dup of powder,
But the basic thing is the had thing is its problem.
(17:38):
So why they give you more time for crack dup
of powder? Well, that was some of the scenarios I
was looking at.
Speaker 2 (17:45):
As you researched it. Did you understand why that was
why they were? What the reasoning might have been for
a severe more severe sentences for crack as opposed to powder.
Speaker 3 (17:57):
You know, uh uh Daves. To this day, I'm still
upset because I still don't understand why, because to me,
patter would be more potent to me, uh, to me
with crack. They say they break the crack down with
bacon power all that, so it's broke down, So why
would it be more severe or penalty unless it's because
of the race that's using the drugs.
Speaker 2 (18:21):
Okay, I don't Let's move forward to Uh, how did it?
How do you remember it happening where you were? Were
President Clinton pardoned you?
Speaker 4 (18:34):
How did it? How did all that transpire?
Speaker 3 (18:37):
Well, it all comes about a lot of people got involved,
like Aery Sterdon Sterling build a campaign families against mandatory minimum. Uh.
It was a lot of people that came on board
that uh got involved. And like I said, all my
writing did not go in vain. I wrote to everybody, right,
(18:57):
That's all I did was my money in prison was
about stamps and wrote out and people, would you know,
another guy named Ira Glassner on this radio show called uh,
I got all this stuff, but his name was just
people all over that heard about my story just like
it was a wild I just caught on fire and
(19:17):
they couldn't believe that this has happened.
Speaker 2 (19:21):
When you found out that you were gonna be how
did you find out that you were going to be pardoned?
Speaker 3 (19:26):
And okay, it was the twenty second day of December. Uh,
you know it was that friday before Christmas coming up.
And in prison they always give you a Christmas bag
to everybody that's in prison. They had locked down for lunch. Well,
I called home that morning. I call home. I always
call my children on and I call home that Friday morning,
and my kids was telling me, well, a lot of
(19:48):
press that come to the prison. That pulled in a
lot of press. They come to the prison and interview me.
And I had an interview supposed to been that Friday morning,
and the guy put the interview off and told me
he was gonna come on that Monday. So that Friday morning,
I called home. My kids told me, said, Mama, someth
going on because a lot of people report us been
(20:09):
calling us all morning. So then I asked to use
the phone. Of course, you know you got women's in prison.
They love soap operas. They're not gonna let you see
the TV or any of that. So about one o'clock
I came into the unity lockdown to give us all
the Christmas bag for Christmas, and I happen to call
my attorney. I had to end up with some pro
bono attorneys that heard about my case out of Maryland.
(20:32):
I think it was Maryland shot Holler and Stewart Firn.
And I called and my lawyer say, doth what are
you doing? Where are you at? I said, wait the
hell you think I'm in prison? You know, just like that?
He said, you're in prison. She said you got released it.
I said, all I got released date? She said, yeah,
you and Kimba Smith got released day and I just
they said, I fainted. I don't know, I fainted.
Speaker 4 (20:56):
You got released on the same day as Kimber.
Speaker 3 (20:59):
Yeah, he would really he spoke of us that day. Wow,
he's still twenty seven.
Speaker 2 (21:06):
Yeah, we've Kembas says, We've talked to Kemba and and
she's got it.
Speaker 4 (21:11):
She's actually been working.
Speaker 2 (21:12):
On a feature film about her, and she had to
check with her attorneys to make sure that what we're
doing is not going to interfere with.
Speaker 4 (21:21):
The future film. So hopefully I'll hear back from her
any day.
Speaker 2 (21:25):
Yeah, but she as you know, she she gave us
a lot of good stuff for the book.
Speaker 4 (21:30):
But I didn't know that.
Speaker 2 (21:30):
That's that's interesting, all right, So tell me about the
transition once you left, Once you left prison, what was
that transition like for you? What did you see in
your family, what did you see, what did you think
was ahead for you where you could go?
Speaker 3 (21:46):
Well, when I left prison, that day, my son. When
I got home, you know, of course was so much
media around, so much media, and when I got home,
my uh my kids kept pitching me because they couldn't
believe I was real. They couldn't believe that I was there,
or my son, and you could see that he was
just he just was I don't know, he just was
(22:08):
standing off and she just he couldn't just believe that
I was home. And you know, I saw that all
the damage had been done, was going on, and it's
like you walk into a fire and you see it,
but then you don't know which way to go with it.
And you know, the worst day right now that I
regret that I did not sit down instead of coming
out trying to fight the law, trying to do everything
(22:30):
for everybody doingthing, I didn't sit down with my kids
to really find out what they had been through mentally
and try to get them some help mentally. And I'll
tell you about it. They come out of here and
your children been hurt. To first put time with your
kids and find what did they go through and what
need to be done. Because I was thinking that by
(22:50):
me coming home that was a healing part, that was
all they needed that wasn't all they needed. I needed
to see what had happened to them that Davids they
had been done.
Speaker 2 (23:00):
So Dorothy, take us through those first five or six
years when you're now out and what are you trying
to do to accliment yourself back into society, help your family,
and also make sure this isn't going to happen to
anyone else if you could well, that.
Speaker 3 (23:17):
Was the main thing. The focus was trying to make
sure other women's and people knew about after I had
experienced a hard weight, trying to make sure that it
was out in the public about crack cocaine, It was
out in the pub about the conspiracy law. The main
thing is people don't understand the conspiracy law. And then
that's when there's a guilt by association came out that
(23:40):
I don't know if a lot of people have. That
explains a lot about how women get cooked up with
guys like I did with Mercedes Ral playing that role,
you know. And then they did the Snitch thing in
nineteen ninety nine with PBS front Line that shared a
lot of light on how this thing happens. When it
(24:02):
comes to snitching, you know, you don't have to know
it for it just get people just a lot that
bothers me a lot. So you know, it's a lot
of light has been shedded, you know, And I have
to say that, you know, I put put a lot
of purpose out there. Again, like I said, I should
have been trying to find out what was going on
my kids, and now I'm I'm the review. Percussion is
in my left.
Speaker 4 (24:21):
You know.
Speaker 3 (24:21):
I did all that running around here there and young
and now I'm still suffering with these kids that that
got messed up doing these drug logs while I was gone,
and it's like a recycled thing. It's drifted on down
to the next generation of kids.
Speaker 2 (24:36):
Tell us take us through your personal life. How long
it took you to Readjust did you were able to
get work? Were you uh were you struggling to find work?
And how what was happening with your family at the time.
Speaker 3 (24:47):
It's been a struggle since I come home, Dave. It's
I mean, uh, the work ethic thing with you know,
with that fellow thing I had on my work because
I was I was commentated, but I wasn't partnered, so
you know it it was a long time. A lot
of things, housing and all you know, there wasn't let
you get housed if you had a drug fell on
the record. It was a lot going on that we
(25:08):
had to fight through, even with voting rights, so we
I had to get out fighting for voting, fighting for housing,
and fighting for food stamp. You had to fight all
these things because you could rob somebody, kill somebody. You
would be utterble for housing and foodstack. But if you
had a drug record, you couldn't. So it was a
still a fight.
Speaker 4 (25:27):
And how long did that is? That? Does that exist today?
Is that a lot of.
Speaker 3 (25:31):
It still exist today? A lot of it still exist today.
A lot of it is getting better, but you know,
it's still a fight. It's so much when you have
a drug record.
Speaker 4 (25:41):
Take us now through how your family evolved.
Speaker 2 (25:43):
When you when you were released, when your your sentence
was commutated or commuted, how you tried to keep the
family together, how the family evolved, What happened in the family.
Speaker 3 (25:55):
Yeah, uh, well, when I came home, you know, my
daughter had come out of college to raise my kids.
My eighteen year old daughter had to stop school and
she had three kids of her own, and she had
to take on my kids. And it was just impacted
home her trying to struggle and take care of the kids,
and me myself coming out as another person involved in
(26:21):
it was like I'm trying to the perfect word for it.
It's like it's a bottle of struggle. But it's still
is not any opening there, you know, It's just it's
still the cycle just still goes on. It's not. Where
are you just free minded that you just everything is
going all right? It's not.
Speaker 4 (26:42):
It's not.
Speaker 3 (26:43):
It's a struggle there that had just messed up the
whole life of the family, and it just goes from
year to year to year and it's not getting a break.
Speaker 2 (26:54):
And what happened to your how does your daughter's life evolve?
You tell us a little bit about your son to
be more specific about what happened to all of them.
Speaker 3 (27:02):
Okay, my oldest daughter when I left, was eighteen. She
was in going into college. She was the one that
took on my two smaller kid to calluse. She didn't
want them to go into aposter care because my mother
had counsel anyway, you know, so she didn't want to
go in there. So she took all that big responsibility herself.
And you know, and family is also they're gonna stand
(27:23):
by and help you. But after so long people disappear.
They'll say they're gonna do something, they disappear. So all
this struggle for the time I was gone was on her.
Her burden along with trying to go to school and
take care of her family, and then with the problem
that my two children had, which was charged with you
(27:43):
at that time. Was eleven, that's what I told you,
that was molested by a family member, and she ended
up on drugs and alcohol, and still on drugs and
alcohol that to this day. That's why I'm having to
help take care of her kids now. And Natasha is
the oldest, which she she has a level head, but
that was a big bird. But she has a something
(28:04):
like a counselor thing going on with her right now.
So she's on a lot of pressure, sick herself. That's
the oldest child. And you know, we know we talked
about what Philip had, but Philip has one daughter that
she is struggling mentally that tried to kill herself a
month ago. And I'm having to help take care of
his child. So that's just the way it's going on now.
Speaker 4 (28:26):
The oldest daughter, what is she is? She does she
have a profession.
Speaker 3 (28:30):
Is she able to My oldest daughter was going to
school to be an attorney, but now she her profession.
She's a school teacher. She's a school teacher, and she
tried to teach criminal justice within the school system to
try and tell kids about it. And I've been over
to her school to speak. But she is she's a
school teacher with the criminal justice side on that. So
(28:51):
she's doing good trying to keep kids out of trouble
in school.
Speaker 2 (28:55):
Okay, that's interesting, that's very positive. I mean, that's that's fantastic.
Speaker 3 (29:00):
Yeah, she's doing good with that.
Speaker 2 (29:01):
Okay, what what do you think was the clincher to
get you your sentence commuted?
Speaker 3 (29:08):
Well, like I said, all the publicity that I did have, UH,
my son wrote a lot of letters to the judge,
and I also wrote the president and my kids, UH,
the campaigns that family against mandatory minimum and Eric Sterling
iran UH and then with the probo on lawyers out
(29:31):
of UH the trot Holling Steward, they was able to
have a sit down talk with UH Eric Holding mm HM,
which was the Attorney general at that my sister Attorney general.
So it was a lot of things played a lot
of roles in that I put yourself out there in
the immediate and people reading about it, and people people,
a lot of people just don't know that. People a
(29:51):
lot of people think that when people go to prison
they actually held ten keys of drugs. They don't think
that people set up in prison because they had knowledge
of I didn't help the prosis, you know, And this
is something that I wanted people to know, especially when
they set the people over in England to come over
here and interview me. I mean, hey, they couldn't believe
that you say, actually sending people to prison, you damaged
(30:12):
the family for life? For what reason? That's what I
don't get. For what reason? I told them they could
give me the life on a monitor, life on probation.
I didn't care as long as I didn't leave my children,
because I knew what the damage was gonna be.
Speaker 2 (30:29):
How do you put this all in perspective, all these
things that have happened to you, and and sort of
justify or accept all this and.
Speaker 4 (30:37):
Put it all on perspective.
Speaker 3 (30:39):
Every time my phone ring and I see that prison
number come across my screen, I'm scared to answer, because
you never know what has happened on the inside. You know,
my phone ring at two o'clock in the morning. I
don't know if somebody calling to him my son has
gotten killed, because I've had those tragic phone calls before.
So you know, it's just you. I live every day
(30:59):
on pen and needs afraid. I have not been in
peace since I've been out of prison. I'm still in prison.
I'm just I've just got my freedom, but I'm I'm
I'm mentally in prison still. And then and then uh,
legacy to me, you know, like it was a mistake.
You know, a good guy that made a bad choice,
(31:22):
and he didn't know he was making that bad choice.
He didn't know. I know he didn't. I'm quite sure.
I know he didn't know that he was gonna o
D on those drugs. But it wasn't it wasn't what
he done. It was a choice he made. The prosecutors
the federal government, because they're still locking people up for
life on drug charges. They're not looking into the fact
(31:43):
of how many children that you are you are you
are bringing into the prison system by locking their parents up.
They need to get to the barb and see see
a lot of this stuff going on with these kids.
Now it's mentally because you don't know what has happened
in these kids life that has caused them to do
the things they're doing. They're not breaking down and make
sure these children see that pair that is important when
(32:04):
a child is a mother and a father's and trithlen
that these children have communication with their parents. And that's
what happened with my kids. They had no transportation to
come and see me when they wanted to come, and
when they did come, they cried the whole while it
was there, not wanting to leave it. They've paid off
they they didn't even want to work to visit room.
(32:26):
My children come because they want to cry and scream.
So we were time to go. So your damnity children
aren't flying. But things ain't gonna happen in the children
you studied down to them.
Speaker 7 (32:39):
That was Dorothy Gaines, who was convicted of drug crimes
related to the death of len Bias. Her sentence was
later commuted by President Bill Clinton. What len Bias a
mixed legacy? The interviews was produced by Daveonngrady and Don Marcus.
Speaker 1 (33:00):
He had it all strong.
Speaker 7 (33:02):
Quick, and he was so lent Bias a mixed legacy
is distributed by the Eighth Side.
Speaker 6 (33:07):
Now, just for greatness and loss, that you're known of
all other memories, Remember me, I hope
As an extension of the podcast series, the producers would
like to share the full interviews of our subjects from
the series. Their accounts and memories offer a fascinating look
into the legacy of Len Bias. We begin the interview
series with a look at the effects of the drug
laws that were changed following the death of Bias. Dave Ngrady,
(00:22):
executive producer of the series, interviews Dorothy Gaines, a victim
of overzealous prosecution and mandatory minimum sentencing which sent her
to prison for a crime she did not commit. Dorothy
shares her personal and tragic family story on how the
death of Len Bias shook her family to the core
and how it still continues to affect their lives to
(00:44):
this day. Dorothy is one example of the thousands of
lives that were affected by the changes of the criminal
justice system due to the War on Drugs and the
drug related death of Len Bias.
Speaker 2 (00:57):
And let's start really from the beginning, how your life
was changed following the arrests, why you were arrested, at
least what law enforcement claimed, and then and then we'll
go from there.
Speaker 3 (01:13):
In nineteen ninety three, Alabama law enforcement claimed that I
knew about some drug dealing going on. They came into
my house and raided and there was nothing. That was
Alabama court and then after Alabama court and you know,
Alabama don't send you to trial unless you have evidence,
but the Pharoh government does with conspiracy. So it was
(01:36):
turned over to the faiths. And that's how it all
started in nineteen ninety three.
Speaker 2 (01:41):
And can you explain why Alabama law enforcement felt compelled
to search your home. You had a relationship with a
gentleman I think who was dealing here.
Speaker 3 (01:51):
You have relationship with a dealer name at that time
was my comradide husband. He was more as a user
than a drug person that was dealing drug. He was
a user, but he knew some guys that was into
that type of business. He testified that I knew anything,
that I didn't know anything about what was going on.
But they still even offer him to be released of
(02:13):
the fourteen years and he would just testify against me,
and he refused to do that.
Speaker 2 (02:18):
Tarbor called the Alabama prosecutors decided not to prosecute you, correct,
because they didn't have no right.
Speaker 3 (02:25):
I didn't have any They didn't have an el say,
Alabama didn't prosecute me. The case was then later the
federal government picked it up.
Speaker 2 (02:32):
And tell me what you recall about the trial when
the federal government process charges against you, and how and
what happened there what you thought was for some injustices
there as well.
Speaker 3 (02:46):
Okay, during the trial and we went to trial at
nineteen ninety, but it started off with they came and
arrest me, and I went and made a magist de bond,
signed my own recovernists and I was on pre trial,
had a group report with the probation office on pre trial.
Then I ended up going to trial with like four
(03:07):
other people, and I begged them let me go to
trial alone, but they wouldn't let me go to trial,
or they tried me with four other people. And one
of the people they tried me was was a young
lady that was working out of macdone's, and it was
a guy there in the trial that say that he
had bought an ouncer crack cocaine from her and the juror.
They asked him to point out the woman that he
(03:28):
bought the ouncer print cocaine from, and he pointed out
a juror. So we just knew the trial was gonna
be thrown out because he didn't Nobody had never seen
this guy. They had brought in the testifact. It was
just somebody after jail that they brought in and he
picked out a juror, so we thought the trial was
gonna be thrown out. And there it is. That prosecutor
told me that when the guy saw the lady the
(03:48):
last time, she was heavy. And you know how the
prosecuted just try to and they went on and bought
and the trial set up again, you know, went on.
So that day I testified that I knew nothing about it.
Even the guy that I was living with test about it.
I knew nothing about what was going on that I was,
you know, worked, and I never knew that he was
(04:09):
a drug dealer, a user. He testified to that, and
that's when, you know, everything, My judge, everybody got involved.
So they ended up blocking me up. My judge, so no,
I'm gonna let her go home because my mother was
suffering from cancer. So he let me go home and
stay until time for me to be sentenced. March ten
or nineteen ninety five is when I was sentenced in
(04:29):
nineteen years and several months, and that's when my son
jumped in, The judge left, and the FBI and the
martials had to pry him out. The judge left and
the judge was crying. He did not want to send
me to prison, and that relationship started being You know,
the judge was the one that wrote a letter to
the president.
Speaker 4 (04:46):
Oh, I didn't know that, Yes, same what that You.
Speaker 3 (04:51):
Know, it was just a few lines. I can get
the letter. I have it in my file, just a
few lines. He said that, you know, this was the
case that he was compelled to do this for it
was his first time he ever doing it, and the
prosecute was just blow because they couldn't believe that he
wrote a letter.
Speaker 4 (05:05):
To the president.
Speaker 2 (05:08):
Your son. Let's go back to your family a little bit.
Tell me about what your family life was like, or
what your life was like before the arrest. You had
children before the rest.
Speaker 3 (05:18):
Yeah, before the arrest, my life was I thought was perfect.
I mean I did everything in the book because my children.
Father died when my son was two and my daughter
was three. That's when he had a massapont i taking
the age of thirty two years old, so it just
me and my kids, and Natasha was eight. Natasha is
my oldest child. So with just a threell we had
(05:41):
a lovely life. You know, I did nothing that I
always set up myself, Dave, that I did nothing unless
my children was involved. I never drink. I've never been
to a club in my life. Everything I did I
did it with my children. Boy scout, girls, scout, uh,
going to movies. Everything involved my children. So this was
a big setback when I left my kids and they
(06:03):
were the only you know, I was the only painter,
not just I was the only parent of my kids.
Hed my mother was stuffed from cancer.
Speaker 4 (06:11):
And what kind of work were you doing at the time.
Speaker 3 (06:13):
I was working at the hospital as a nurse, so
I you know everything that went down the drain at
that moment.
Speaker 2 (06:21):
What what can you tell us about your connection to
this gentleman who had who was using drugs?
Speaker 4 (06:27):
What was he just a friend? Was he? Why would
they think that he was my guy?
Speaker 3 (06:31):
He was my guy friend. Let me tell you something
about him. You would never have known he was a user.
He was what you call a he works every day
every day, clean cut. You never would he was what
you call a closet user. You didn't You could not
tell he used drugs. Bias Yeah, you could not tell
he used drugs. To this day, you would never have
(06:54):
nobody everybody was surprised that he was a drug user.
Speaker 4 (06:58):
And explain again that connection.
Speaker 2 (07:00):
Did that connection impact you being uh?
Speaker 4 (07:06):
Law enforcement coming after you? Is that what that was
the big reason that.
Speaker 3 (07:09):
That was a connection. That was a connection that law
enforcement come after me and my daughter's grandmother, my daughter's
oldest daughter, Natasha grandmother, her son testified against her, and
natasha father testified against me and his mother and she
was like sixty some years old and she went to prison.
(07:30):
So yeah, there was a whole type of connection.
Speaker 2 (07:31):
Yes, tell us again what happened with your how old
your son was? Can you relive that moment in court
when when you were convicted and how he reacted?
Speaker 3 (07:43):
Uh, my son was magews and when I was twenty
years to live in the pool.
Speaker 5 (07:57):
And my son and mess every sister the day.
Speaker 4 (08:03):
H y.
Speaker 6 (08:10):
Ever since that day I went to prison, we j
be living picked up. Don't send me to prison. He
has been missed from ever. He's not in prison doing
forty he.
Speaker 4 (08:24):
H h.
Speaker 3 (08:33):
So my life has just been tore up ever since
that day. H.
Speaker 4 (08:43):
What what were the what were the charges against your
son that he's in prison now.
Speaker 3 (08:49):
Robbery. He got a little drugs, real bad when he
was young. Mhm.
Speaker 2 (09:01):
And how much of how much of his behavior do
you figure as related to what happened to you?
Speaker 3 (09:06):
One hundred percent? My son tried to kill himself while
I was gone. He set himself, but he took over
those He did everything.
Speaker 5 (09:20):
To not leave.
Speaker 2 (09:26):
I was aware he was if he had challenges, Dorothy,
I didn't realize it was that hard.
Speaker 4 (09:31):
I'm sorry, yes O. How often do you talk with
him or communicate with him?
Speaker 3 (09:46):
Every other day? I tried to communicate him every the
other day. My son stay out, was stay up fifteen times?
Why he been gone? He was stay up fifteen times?
And did a sometime. He got his stroke cut last year.
Speaker 4 (10:05):
While in prison. Well in prison did me?
Speaker 3 (10:08):
And his daughter was going to see him and we
almost got killed going to see him in bad COURRCT.
He has one child and she's now trying to commit
suicide last month herself.
Speaker 2 (10:26):
Who Dorothy. As you're talking through this and we're listening
to this, it's pretty hard to hear. But how are
you how do you keep all this? How do you
keep it together?
Speaker 4 (10:36):
With all this? What is your what is your foundation
of what keeps you going?
Speaker 3 (10:43):
Just hoping one day is going one day we can
have enjoyment of seeing each other again on the outside.
It's just been like I've been in prison for the
last thirty years. It's been like prison.
Speaker 7 (11:00):
Hm.
Speaker 2 (11:05):
Oh lord, Can you tell me about the rest of
your family, how they're doing and and and I know
how from talking with you over.
Speaker 4 (11:21):
The last.
Speaker 2 (11:23):
A couple of years that you're taking care of some
of your grandchildren.
Speaker 4 (11:28):
Correct, Is that correct?
Speaker 3 (11:29):
Yes? I'm uh Phillip's daughter, uh Taylor, and my my
daughter that when I went to prison, char Or, she's
she was eleven at that time, and she was molested
by a family member that has got her so messed
up that she's on drugs and alcohol as well. So
I'm having to help take care of for her kids.
(11:53):
All that happened while I was inconcentrated. She was right
by a family member.
Speaker 4 (11:58):
I'm sorry, who was your daughter?
Speaker 3 (12:01):
Yeah, Charro the level when she was eleven at the
time I went to prison, and you know, mentally, it
messed with her a lot, and so she started drinking
and started doing drugs as well. So she has four children,
(12:23):
So I just I know I ain't no guests, That's
why God keeping me here, is why COVID. I mean, hey,
it's a reason for my life. Hopefully one day I'll
see the sun shame.
Speaker 4 (12:37):
And who cares for your Who cares for your children?
Where they were adults? But are they.
Speaker 2 (12:43):
You're helping care to be clear, helping care for their
their children as best you can?
Speaker 4 (12:47):
Correct?
Speaker 3 (12:47):
Yes, yes, yes, it's a hard journey. But I'm trying
to do.
Speaker 4 (12:53):
With how are you? How are you doing that? What
do you because you're not able to work? You're not working? Correct?
Speaker 3 (13:00):
No, I'm not working. I don't think I get an
SSI disability.
Speaker 4 (13:05):
Okay, let's talk a bit. When you were incarcerated, what
did you do?
Speaker 2 (13:16):
I'm I think it's fair to say that you felt
you were unjustly convicted? Of course, what did you do
to try to first deal with the fact while you
were in prison that you don't felt you shouldn't have
been there? And secondly, what did you do to try to,
if anything, fixed your situation?
Speaker 3 (13:38):
I start well, when I went to I went to
FRISM and I started writing out, I started calling out,
and I remember I got in touch with jeded Reno
and I was explaining them on a letter about what
had went down did It wasn't fair. How could I
be charged with something I never done? And and I
remember her office writing me back, and I end up
still writing and writing. And then when I went to prison,
(14:01):
I wrote letters and different people from all over England
would get my got my story. They send somebody over
here to do a film about how they were sending
American people to prison on conspiracy. They did that when
I was in Mariana prison in nineteen ninety nine. They
sent somebody from England. Then different magazines like Marie Clair
(14:23):
and Ebony Essence. And you know, Philip was in the
last book that JFK put out before he got killed
in the plane crack. The story about him was in
that book called Joege the last book that was put out.
They wrote a story about him in that book. I
mean it just I just sent in prison. I just
(14:44):
I didn't go to prison. I just put simp there.
I just let myself write in prison, knowing that I
needed my children needed me, So I started writing out
and begging for help on outside. I started begging for
help for somebody, some organization to take hold of my
son and be a mentor. But I and get that
part of it. But I did. People did start writing
out about my story and doing a lot of things.
Speaker 4 (15:06):
So while you were in prison, you were doing all this,
did you darthy? Did you think that you were going
to be in there for a really long time? Like, uh,
were you gonna do your you were gonna it was.
Speaker 3 (15:16):
A mindset thing. I kept saying every day, I was
not going to do that time. I kept telling the
officers that I was not going to do that time.
And I remember one day I kept on talking. I said,
I'm going home, and they sent me to the site ward.
They said I was losing my mind because I had
twenty years. How was I going home? And I said,
I'm going home. I'm gonna fight my case. I'm going home,
(15:37):
and they sent me to the site war.
Speaker 2 (15:41):
Did you when you got arrested, when you were convicted
you did you understand what the laws were and how
it related to the death of Len Bias at that time?
Speaker 4 (15:51):
Did you know who Lenn was? Did you know any
of that?
Speaker 1 (15:54):
No?
Speaker 3 (15:54):
I did not know. No, I did not.
Speaker 4 (15:58):
When did you finally become aware of that?
Speaker 3 (16:01):
I remember reading about uh, Lenn biased. I think it was.
I don't know what was Eric was talking about it
when that's when everybody was running and jumping and lend biased.
They didn't really look into the law. They were just
upset because Lynn had od and they just changed the law.
And he said, like overnight, Oh that was that was? Uh?
Speaker 4 (16:24):
Oh, yes, okay.
Speaker 2 (16:25):
But when did you When did you become aware of
Len's history and how his death affected Uh?
Speaker 3 (16:32):
While I was inconcentrated, because I knew nothing about any
of this before I went to prison. That's why I
was the person to try to read now and let
people know, you gotta be knowledge of us stuff. But
before I knew nothing about conspiras. I knew nothing about
practic cocaine. I knew nothing about any of it.
Speaker 2 (16:51):
Did you find out about him just reading about it
while you were in prison?
Speaker 4 (16:55):
Is that what you're.
Speaker 3 (16:56):
Saying, Yeah, I found out about I was convicted. I
didn't know any thing about You.
Speaker 4 (17:00):
Know this.
Speaker 2 (17:02):
And how did it? How did that make you feel
when you found that out?
Speaker 4 (17:05):
Did you.
Speaker 2 (17:08):
Enough that there was a whole lot you could do
at that point beside what you were doing? But did
you think about that and said, why you know this
doesn't make sense? Or did you have any kind of
reaction to that?
Speaker 3 (17:17):
Well, yea, I have a reaction to it because the
thing about the way I looked at with crack cocaine,
it's just like with a chicken. You can take a chicken,
you can boil it, fry, barbecue, and bake it, but
when it all boil down, it's a chicken. And it's
the same way with crack, cocaine and powder. They give
you more time for having crack cocaine and dup of powder,
But the basic thing is the had thing is its problem.
(17:38):
So why they give you more time for crack dup
of powder? Well, that was some of the scenarios I
was looking at.
Speaker 2 (17:45):
As you researched it. Did you understand why that was
why they were? What the reasoning might have been for
a severe more severe sentences for crack as opposed to powder.
Speaker 3 (17:57):
You know, uh uh Daves. To this day, I'm still
upset because I still don't understand why, because to me,
patter would be more potent to me, uh, to me
with crack. They say they break the crack down with
bacon power all that, so it's broke down, So why
would it be more severe or penalty unless it's because
of the race that's using the drugs.
Speaker 2 (18:21):
Okay, I don't Let's move forward to Uh, how did it?
How do you remember it happening where you were? Were
President Clinton pardoned you?
Speaker 4 (18:34):
How did it? How did all that transpire?
Speaker 3 (18:37):
Well, it all comes about a lot of people got involved,
like Aery Sterdon Sterling build a campaign families against mandatory minimum. Uh.
It was a lot of people that came on board
that uh got involved. And like I said, all my
writing did not go in vain. I wrote to everybody, right,
(18:57):
That's all I did was my money in prison was
about stamps and wrote out and people, would you know,
another guy named Ira Glassner on this radio show called uh,
I got all this stuff, but his name was just
people all over that heard about my story just like
it was a wild I just caught on fire and
(19:17):
they couldn't believe that this has happened.
Speaker 2 (19:21):
When you found out that you were gonna be how
did you find out that you were going to be pardoned?
Speaker 3 (19:26):
And okay, it was the twenty second day of December. Uh,
you know it was that friday before Christmas coming up.
And in prison they always give you a Christmas bag
to everybody that's in prison. They had locked down for lunch. Well,
I called home that morning. I call home. I always
call my children on and I call home that Friday morning,
and my kids was telling me, well, a lot of
(19:48):
press that come to the prison. That pulled in a
lot of press. They come to the prison and interview me.
And I had an interview supposed to been that Friday morning,
and the guy put the interview off and told me
he was gonna come on that Monday. So that Friday morning,
I called home. My kids told me, said, Mama, someth
going on because a lot of people report us been
(20:09):
calling us all morning. So then I asked to use
the phone. Of course, you know you got women's in prison.
They love soap operas. They're not gonna let you see
the TV or any of that. So about one o'clock
I came into the unity lockdown to give us all
the Christmas bag for Christmas, and I happen to call
my attorney. I had to end up with some pro
bono attorneys that heard about my case out of Maryland.
(20:32):
I think it was Maryland shot Holler and Stewart Firn.
And I called and my lawyer say, doth what are
you doing? Where are you at? I said, wait the
hell you think I'm in prison? You know, just like that?
He said, you're in prison. She said you got released it.
I said, all I got released date? She said, yeah,
you and Kimba Smith got released day and I just
they said, I fainted. I don't know, I fainted.
Speaker 4 (20:56):
You got released on the same day as Kimber.
Speaker 3 (20:59):
Yeah, he would really he spoke of us that day. Wow,
he's still twenty seven.
Speaker 2 (21:06):
Yeah, we've Kembas says, We've talked to Kemba and and
she's got it.
Speaker 4 (21:11):
She's actually been working.
Speaker 2 (21:12):
On a feature film about her, and she had to
check with her attorneys to make sure that what we're
doing is not going to interfere with.
Speaker 4 (21:21):
The future film. So hopefully I'll hear back from her
any day.
Speaker 2 (21:25):
Yeah, but she as you know, she she gave us
a lot of good stuff for the book.
Speaker 4 (21:30):
But I didn't know that.
Speaker 2 (21:30):
That's that's interesting, all right, So tell me about the
transition once you left, Once you left prison, what was
that transition like for you? What did you see in
your family, what did you see, what did you think
was ahead for you where you could go?
Speaker 3 (21:46):
Well, when I left prison, that day, my son. When
I got home, you know, of course was so much
media around, so much media, and when I got home,
my uh my kids kept pitching me because they couldn't
believe I was real. They couldn't believe that I was there,
or my son, and you could see that he was
just he just was I don't know, he just was
(22:08):
standing off and she just he couldn't just believe that
I was home. And you know, I saw that all
the damage had been done, was going on, and it's
like you walk into a fire and you see it,
but then you don't know which way to go with it.
And you know, the worst day right now that I
regret that I did not sit down instead of coming
out trying to fight the law, trying to do everything
(22:30):
for everybody doingthing, I didn't sit down with my kids
to really find out what they had been through mentally
and try to get them some help mentally. And I'll
tell you about it. They come out of here and
your children been hurt. To first put time with your
kids and find what did they go through and what
need to be done. Because I was thinking that by
(22:50):
me coming home that was a healing part, that was
all they needed that wasn't all they needed. I needed
to see what had happened to them that Davids they
had been done.
Speaker 2 (23:00):
So Dorothy, take us through those first five or six
years when you're now out and what are you trying
to do to accliment yourself back into society, help your family,
and also make sure this isn't going to happen to
anyone else if you could well, that.
Speaker 3 (23:17):
Was the main thing. The focus was trying to make
sure other women's and people knew about after I had
experienced a hard weight, trying to make sure that it
was out in the public about crack cocaine, It was
out in the pub about the conspiracy law. The main
thing is people don't understand the conspiracy law. And then
that's when there's a guilt by association came out that
(23:40):
I don't know if a lot of people have. That
explains a lot about how women get cooked up with
guys like I did with Mercedes Ral playing that role,
you know. And then they did the Snitch thing in
nineteen ninety nine with PBS front Line that shared a
lot of light on how this thing happens. When it
(24:02):
comes to snitching, you know, you don't have to know
it for it just get people just a lot that
bothers me a lot. So you know, it's a lot
of light has been shedded, you know, And I have
to say that, you know, I put put a lot
of purpose out there. Again, like I said, I should
have been trying to find out what was going on
my kids, and now I'm I'm the review. Percussion is
in my left.
Speaker 4 (24:21):
You know.
Speaker 3 (24:21):
I did all that running around here there and young
and now I'm still suffering with these kids that that
got messed up doing these drug logs while I was gone,
and it's like a recycled thing. It's drifted on down
to the next generation of kids.
Speaker 2 (24:36):
Tell us take us through your personal life. How long
it took you to Readjust did you were able to
get work? Were you uh were you struggling to find work?
And how what was happening with your family at the time.
Speaker 3 (24:47):
It's been a struggle since I come home, Dave. It's
I mean, uh, the work ethic thing with you know,
with that fellow thing I had on my work because
I was I was commentated, but I wasn't partnered, so
you know it it was a long time. A lot
of things, housing and all you know, there wasn't let
you get housed if you had a drug fell on
the record. It was a lot going on that we
(25:08):
had to fight through, even with voting rights, so we
I had to get out fighting for voting, fighting for housing,
and fighting for food stamp. You had to fight all
these things because you could rob somebody, kill somebody. You
would be utterble for housing and foodstack. But if you
had a drug record, you couldn't. So it was a
still a fight.
Speaker 4 (25:27):
And how long did that is? That? Does that exist today?
Is that a lot of.
Speaker 3 (25:31):
It still exist today? A lot of it still exist today.
A lot of it is getting better, but you know,
it's still a fight. It's so much when you have
a drug record.
Speaker 4 (25:41):
Take us now through how your family evolved.
Speaker 2 (25:43):
When you when you were released, when your your sentence
was commutated or commuted, how you tried to keep the
family together, how the family evolved, What happened in the family.
Speaker 3 (25:55):
Yeah, uh, well, when I came home, you know, my
daughter had come out of college to raise my kids.
My eighteen year old daughter had to stop school and
she had three kids of her own, and she had
to take on my kids. And it was just impacted
home her trying to struggle and take care of the kids,
and me myself coming out as another person involved in
(26:21):
it was like I'm trying to the perfect word for it.
It's like it's a bottle of struggle. But it's still
is not any opening there, you know, It's just it's
still the cycle just still goes on. It's not. Where
are you just free minded that you just everything is
going all right? It's not.
Speaker 4 (26:42):
It's not.
Speaker 3 (26:43):
It's a struggle there that had just messed up the
whole life of the family, and it just goes from
year to year to year and it's not getting a break.
Speaker 2 (26:54):
And what happened to your how does your daughter's life evolve?
You tell us a little bit about your son to
be more specific about what happened to all of them.
Speaker 3 (27:02):
Okay, my oldest daughter when I left, was eighteen. She
was in going into college. She was the one that
took on my two smaller kid to calluse. She didn't
want them to go into aposter care because my mother
had counsel anyway, you know, so she didn't want to
go in there. So she took all that big responsibility herself.
And you know, and family is also they're gonna stand
(27:23):
by and help you. But after so long people disappear.
They'll say they're gonna do something, they disappear. So all
this struggle for the time I was gone was on her.
Her burden along with trying to go to school and
take care of her family, and then with the problem
that my two children had, which was charged with you
(27:43):
at that time. Was eleven, that's what I told you,
that was molested by a family member, and she ended
up on drugs and alcohol, and still on drugs and
alcohol that to this day. That's why I'm having to
help take care of her kids now. And Natasha is
the oldest, which she she has a level head, but
that was a big bird. But she has a something
(28:04):
like a counselor thing going on with her right now.
So she's on a lot of pressure, sick herself. That's
the oldest child. And you know, we know we talked
about what Philip had, but Philip has one daughter that
she is struggling mentally that tried to kill herself a
month ago. And I'm having to help take care of
his child. So that's just the way it's going on now.
Speaker 4 (28:26):
The oldest daughter, what is she is? She does she
have a profession.
Speaker 3 (28:30):
Is she able to My oldest daughter was going to
school to be an attorney, but now she her profession.
She's a school teacher. She's a school teacher, and she
tried to teach criminal justice within the school system to
try and tell kids about it. And I've been over
to her school to speak. But she is she's a
school teacher with the criminal justice side on that. So
(28:51):
she's doing good trying to keep kids out of trouble
in school.
Speaker 2 (28:55):
Okay, that's interesting, that's very positive. I mean, that's that's fantastic.
Speaker 3 (29:00):
Yeah, she's doing good with that.
Speaker 2 (29:01):
Okay, what what do you think was the clincher to
get you your sentence commuted?
Speaker 3 (29:08):
Well, like I said, all the publicity that I did have, UH,
my son wrote a lot of letters to the judge,
and I also wrote the president and my kids, UH,
the campaigns that family against mandatory minimum and Eric Sterling
iran UH and then with the probo on lawyers out
(29:31):
of UH the trot Holling Steward, they was able to
have a sit down talk with UH Eric Holding mm HM,
which was the Attorney general at that my sister Attorney general.
So it was a lot of things played a lot
of roles in that I put yourself out there in
the immediate and people reading about it, and people people,
a lot of people just don't know that. People a
(29:51):
lot of people think that when people go to prison
they actually held ten keys of drugs. They don't think
that people set up in prison because they had knowledge
of I didn't help the prosis, you know, And this
is something that I wanted people to know, especially when
they set the people over in England to come over
here and interview me. I mean, hey, they couldn't believe
that you say, actually sending people to prison, you damaged
(30:12):
the family for life? For what reason? That's what I
don't get. For what reason? I told them they could
give me the life on a monitor, life on probation.
I didn't care as long as I didn't leave my children,
because I knew what the damage was gonna be.
Speaker 2 (30:29):
How do you put this all in perspective, all these
things that have happened to you, and and sort of
justify or accept all this and.
Speaker 4 (30:37):
Put it all on perspective.
Speaker 3 (30:39):
Every time my phone ring and I see that prison
number come across my screen, I'm scared to answer, because
you never know what has happened on the inside. You know,
my phone ring at two o'clock in the morning. I
don't know if somebody calling to him my son has
gotten killed, because I've had those tragic phone calls before.
So you know, it's just you. I live every day
(30:59):
on pen and needs afraid. I have not been in
peace since I've been out of prison. I'm still in prison.
I'm just I've just got my freedom, but I'm I'm
I'm mentally in prison still. And then and then uh,
legacy to me, you know, like it was a mistake.
You know, a good guy that made a bad choice,
(31:22):
and he didn't know he was making that bad choice.
He didn't know. I know he didn't. I'm quite sure.
I know he didn't know that he was gonna o
D on those drugs. But it wasn't it wasn't what
he done. It was a choice he made. The prosecutors
the federal government, because they're still locking people up for
life on drug charges. They're not looking into the fact
(31:43):
of how many children that you are you are you
are bringing into the prison system by locking their parents up.
They need to get to the barb and see see
a lot of this stuff going on with these kids.
Now it's mentally because you don't know what has happened
in these kids life that has caused them to do
the things they're doing. They're not breaking down and make
sure these children see that pair that is important when
(32:04):
a child is a mother and a father's and trithlen
that these children have communication with their parents. And that's
what happened with my kids. They had no transportation to
come and see me when they wanted to come, and
when they did come, they cried the whole while it
was there, not wanting to leave it. They've paid off
they they didn't even want to work to visit room.
(32:26):
My children come because they want to cry and scream.
So we were time to go. So your damnity children
aren't flying. But things ain't gonna happen in the children
you studied down to them.
Speaker 7 (32:39):
That was Dorothy Gaines, who was convicted of drug crimes
related to the death of len Bias. Her sentence was
later commuted by President Bill Clinton. What len Bias a
mixed legacy? The interviews was produced by Daveonngrady and Don Marcus.
Speaker 1 (33:00):
He had it all strong.
Speaker 7 (33:02):
Quick, and he was so lent Bias a mixed legacy
is distributed by the Eighth Side.
Speaker 6 (33:07):
Now, just for greatness and loss, that you're known of
all other memories, Remember me, I hope
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!