June 7, 2023 • 37 mins
The Interviews series continues with Don Markus interviewing ESPN broadcaster, former Duke Blue Devil, and attorney Jay Bilas. Jay played against Len his entire career in the ACC and offers a unique perspective on his death and the impact that it had on him and society at large. His viewpoint is shared in many episodes of the series including Ep 4 on Len's untimely death and Episode 8 where he shares his viewpoint on mandatory sentencing.
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Minnesota, said ASA, Hello, this is Don Marcus, one of
the co producers of Len Bias A Mixed Legacy. We
continue our series on the interviews with the discussion I
was able to have with Jay Billis, broadcaster, attorney, and
former Duke center. Jay Billis is someone who knows the
Len Bias story personally and on all levels. Jay's four
(00:20):
years with the Blue Devils coincided with Len's career in
College Park, including a game at Cameron Indoor Stadium which
Bias scored a career high forty one points. Billis speaks
to how great a player Bias was, putting him in
the same company with another two time ACC Player of
the Year Michael Jordan, as well as three time ACC
Player of the Year Ralph Sampson. Billis speaks passionately about
(00:43):
the impact of Bias's death had on himself and society,
and as an attorney, he speaks to the devastating legal
fallout to the lives of those incarcerated by the mandatory
minimum sentencing laws following Bias's tragic death on June nineteenth,
nineteen eighty six. When we spoke back in February twenty twenty,
(01:04):
you know, obviously you played against him. You were part
of that barnstorming team, so you got to know him
a little. I assume that's really where you got to
know him more than any other time, when you were
at Duke. Is that true or did you know them before? Well?
Speaker 2 (01:19):
I knew him before. I mean we got to know
each other playing against each other throughout four years of college.
I didn't know him in high school simply because he
grew up in Maryland. I grew up in Los Angeles,
So there weren't the same sort of national tournaments for
AAU that you have now. There are only a few
of them, so the players didn't run into each other
coast to coast as much as they do now. But yeah,
(01:41):
we knew each other, and all my teammates knew him,
especially the guys that grew up in the DC area.
Speaker 1 (01:48):
Yeah, you've told the stories over the years about the
games against the games against Duke, and the forty one
point game, the the the ACC Championship game, tournament game
(02:08):
was that that that tournament game in eighty four, the
finals was that sort of you know, his coming out party.
I mean in terms of this is a guy who's
going to be a star or did you know it
before that?
Speaker 2 (02:22):
We knew it before that. We knew it our freshman year.
You know, he played on a team that had some
older guys, but and probably averaged ten ten points a
game whatever it was his first year. But after that,
in our sophomore year, he took off and took off
right away. So and was was the best player. And
they had good players at Adrian Branch and Keith Gatlin
(02:44):
and Ben Coleman, Hermanfale, all these guys, but we knew
Bias was their best player. It didn't take very long
to figure that out. So it wasn't that we didn't know.
I can't speak to what others. You know that that
was back when national television wasn't ubiquitous, So you know,
you appeared on NBC and by us. You know, they
(03:05):
beat us for the a SEC Championship on a Sunday
afternoon game and he has twenty six or whatever it was,
and it was his usual superman self. So the fact
that the masses may have seen him for the first time,
it wasn't a surprise to us.
Speaker 1 (03:26):
I mean, by by then his game was starting to,
you know, come come together. It was not just athleticism.
He by then, I think he sort of had the
developing of that great jump shot that I saw one
because I only covered him the senior year. Was that
what made you know, what made him so difficult is
(03:48):
because you know, in basketball, of the guys that athletic
usually you know, a lot of those guys can't shoot,
so you play off of him. He couldn't play off
of him because he had such a good jump shot.
So was he almost impossible once he got to that level,
almost impossible to guard?
Speaker 2 (04:04):
Yeah, well he was impossible guard. And I mean the
truth is most players can't shoot, whether athletic or not.
But so so that's why shooters are in such high
demand and always have been. But Bias had a beautiful
jump shot and always had that. His form was impeccable
from day one. I just think, you know, the fact
that back then freshmen weren't relied upon as they are now,
(04:29):
So it was a little bit of a different era
in that regard.
Speaker 1 (04:32):
But by the.
Speaker 2 (04:33):
Time he became a sophomore and was, you know, sort
of the lead dog for Maryland, it was a it
was an issue of confidence and them going to him.
So he was really more assertive his sophomore year and beyond.
More than anything. It wasn't that he didn't have that
jump shot as a freshman, he just wasn't asserted, an
(04:53):
assertive player and a go to player in that regard.
His his leticism was off the charts, and especially as
a two footed jumper. He wasn't one of those you know,
kind of take off of one foot guys, but off
of two he was so powerful and graceful and elegant
(05:17):
with that power. But his jump shot was a separating
factor because he could rise, he had a high release point.
He could rise up so high to get it off.
He could shoot over anybody, and he had really great range.
You put those two things together and it's a hard
combination to stop. And then you know, his last two
(05:37):
years he made you know, well over eighty percent from
the free throw lines. He couldn't follow him.
Speaker 1 (05:44):
I remember the thing that struck me about that forty
one point game at Cameron was the fact that Gatlin
didn't play. So here he's playing without his point guard
to feed him the ball and he still gets forty one.
You guys win. But but I know Mike has said,
Mike said over the years that you know it was
(06:04):
the greatest, you know performance. So I don't know if
he said with with performed by Jordan, but it may
have been the greatest performance by a visiting player, you know,
in his time. Whenever he said it, what what what
memories do you have of that game? And and and
what was going on in the huddle during that game?
Speaker 2 (06:23):
The memory was we couldn't stop him. We knew we
were gonna win. We were better in Maryland, whether whether
they had a full compliment or not, we were the
better team. So we knew we were gonna win, but
we couldn't stop him. And guys were coming back to
the bench saying, I'm trying to foul him, I can't
even follow him. And uh so we we uh, we
knew how good he was. I don't think that, you know,
(06:48):
during games, our players were ever in awe of anyone,
but after games you knew, you know, you respected who
could really you know, who was separate, separated, and he
was separate it from the crowd. You know. There were
only a few players that I heard our best players
talk about with reverence back then. One was Jordan, uh
(07:12):
the other was Bias and and a third was Rod
Strickland of DePaul our guards. You know, after we played
DePaul were like Rod Strickland, man, that dude is the
real deal. You know, like stuff like that, which they do.
You know, they didn't say very often, but those those
three stood out above above others.
Speaker 1 (07:34):
You know, it was almost I mean, you know they
had that. You had the game with Maryland Carolina that
ESPN showed last summer, and and Jordan Leaves and and
and and bias. I mean, you guys had great players.
Johnny Dawkins great player, and Amaker and Allery and there
and there you know, Brad Dougherty's in the league, you
(07:56):
know is as a great player, and Kenny Smith and
it was an unbelievable conference of uh you know it.
Back then, would you say that bias just just from
a you know, as if you had to pick one
guy from that that group to start, you know, if
you were playing pickup, would he be and and all
(08:18):
those guys are available, what would would he have been
the first guy picked? Yes?
Speaker 2 (08:23):
I mean he was the second guy picked in the draft.
And he was only picked second because Brad Dherty's seven
feet and you know, back then that was the that
was the thing. I mean in today's game, you wouldn't
hesitate to pick Bias first. And he was two time
ACC Player of the Year. It's not like you know,
it was any secret. It wasn't a secret he was
the best player and uh and we knew it. Uh.
(08:43):
And that's why it was so exciting when he got
drafted by Boston, the idea that he was going to
play for the Celtics and you know, he'd be a
Hall of Fame caliber player for them, and uh and
I believe you would have been a legitimate challenger to
Jordan for best player in the league. That's a tall
order to say he would have been as good or better,
(09:05):
but I'm I believe that would have been the case.
But you know it, it speaks to the level of
the tragedy that you have to explain to younger people
how good he was and direct them to you know,
old grainy video to confirm it. You know, it's it's
(09:27):
profoundly sad that that that legacy wasn't he wasn't able
to complete it because I think I think it would
have been epic and uh, and we wouldn't have to
explain it. You just say, go, look like you didn't
have to explain it with Jordan and maybe the young
people today. You know, we're educated by you know, the
last Dance, but there's there's no there's no record for
(09:52):
them to look toward in the NBA for for bias
and just the feeling never goes away of sad us.
Speaker 1 (10:01):
What was that? What was that barnstorming tour like in
terms of because he was I didn't realized this. I
mean it was mostly, if not all North Carolina guys
players who played at North Carolina, at North Carolina schools.
Speaker 2 (10:15):
I think, well that was that was the majority of
the ACC back then, or at least you know, but
you know, there were only eight teams in the league,
so that was a There were two different barnstorming tours.
Neil mcgahe had one and a guy named Mike Sumner
had the other. So we played a lot of games.
We played basically after the NCAA Championship game in Dallas
(10:38):
that we played in in nineteen eighty six, we played
in Newbern, North Carolina that Tuesday night for cash and
we did that the remainder of that month, So we
probably played twenty five Knights in a row something like that.
And Neil mcgahey had the bigger games. So he had
the games that were like played at a college arena
(11:01):
or Greensboro Colisee and whatever it was, Leonora Ryan and
then Sumner had the places that you know, it was
more of the you played at the high school gym.
So Bias and uh, Speedy Jones, those guys only played
in a few of those games, probably a handful. It was.
(11:22):
It was a longer trip for him too, because the
tour was down in North Carolina.
Speaker 1 (11:26):
Yeah, was there any uh, because Dave had talked to
Chris Washburn at one point and I think Washburn was
on that tour and he said that that that Bias
came to his room one night with cocaine. Was there
any talk back then? I mean, obviously there was always
(11:49):
talk of you know, there were guys like David Thompson
who were struggling, John Lucas who were struggling, and and
you know, was there ever any talk about anything going
on the accor with Bias or was when it happened
on June nineteenth, total shock.
Speaker 2 (12:06):
It was total shock for me. I didn't know any
of that was going on with regard to particular players.
You certainly knew it was going on in society and
at your school. You don't want to you don't want
to be flippant and say that was all over the place.
But it was not unusual to run into that kind
of discussion. But when we were out barnstorming together, there
(12:32):
weren't a lot of hotel stays for us because we
could get to and from games pretty easily, so we
didn't have to stay overnight. So I don't recall, you know,
we went out a couple times with players, but it
wasn't you know, it wasn't something we did often. We
were playing those things for money, so we went, we performed,
(12:54):
we got our money, we went home. But so I
didn't hear anything about really any of those players or
anything about len bias. There was never a hint of
that to me, And I understand, like, like, look, I'm
not naive. I'd be surprised if something like that was
someone's first time, but I don't. I don't know that,
(13:17):
But I don't have any any evidence to dispute it either, right.
Speaker 1 (13:23):
I mean, people talk about when when they heard it,
they heard the drugs were involved, just because of how
good a player he was and the level at which
he performed and what he looked like I mean, he
was you know, you said Superman before. I mean he
looked like he you know, he didn't look like a
lot of guys back in those days because he he
(13:44):
was into waits. He had sculpted his body. So did
that add to the shock of it because of how
he looked to you? The memory you had of him
when it happened on June nineteen, when you heard, you know,
when you were out in California.
Speaker 2 (13:58):
It was just the overall you know, Bias was a
supermanlike figure. So when you got the shocking you know,
the shocking news, you know, it wasn't because of any
one thing. It was the overall aura he had as
a player. He's just different. It was different in how
(14:22):
good he was, the way he carried himself, how he looked,
the way he played. Everything was sort of above. He
had a level above the overwhelming majority of guys that
played and or at least that I played against and saw.
Speaker 1 (14:38):
And then.
Speaker 2 (14:39):
But the shock also was the timing of it. You know,
it's so close to something that was life changing for
for him. You know, you don't expect that ever, but
if it, I don't know how I would have felt
if it would have been an accident or you know,
(15:01):
some sort of automobile accent or something like that, whether
you could wrap your head around a little bit more,
it just seemed that, uh, you know, the the day
after the NBA draft and then it being an overdose
and and all that it was, there were so many
factors to it that that gave you a gut punch
(15:23):
and uh. And I don't have many things in my
life where I knew exactly where I was. You know
where I was when I heard something. I remember that
like it was yesterday.
Speaker 1 (15:34):
Yeah, and you said you were at in California. I
remember you telling us you were at in California.
Speaker 2 (15:40):
I was at home, Uh, at my visiting my parents
right after the draft and uh and my mom woke
me up, uh and told me and uh, you know,
there wasn't updates on your phone or anything back then.
You heard the news off television or radio or the
newspaper and uh. And I was actually sleeping in Los
(16:01):
Angeles and she woke me up and said, Len, biased
I'm like what. Yeah, I'll never forget that.
Speaker 1 (16:08):
Yeah. You may mentioned before about the comparison to Jordan,
at least in terms of how good a player he
might have been. Now there there you know people Bob
Ryan we talked to a couple of months ago. He said,
you know, he's he won't put him in the panther,
he won't put him on Mount Rushmore. You know, with
with with with Bird and and and and and Magic
(16:32):
and Jordan and I don't know who else he mentioned.
He said he was, you know, he he probably would
have been James Worthy, which is not bad, but you
you think because of who he was drafted with and
where the Celtics were at that point, that you know,
he would have at least been some sort of rival
to Jordan, and because just just naturally the teams would
(16:54):
have been rivals.
Speaker 2 (16:56):
Well I don't I don't know. I didn't hear Bob
say that, so I don't know whether he was talking
about had Bias lived, he would have been as good
as Worthy, or his talent level dictated this. What I'm
saying is his talent level was Jordan esque, and he
would I believe, and he was a far better shooter
(17:16):
coming out of college and Jordan was. It wasn't close.
I would have, like I believe, he would have been
one of the all time greats. And during that period
he would have been a challenger to Michael Jordan as
the best player in the league. Now, I refuse to
say he would have been as good or better. I
you know, that's that's a bridge too far from me.
(17:37):
But he would have been a challenger. And and you know,
I believe that down to my socks.
Speaker 1 (17:43):
I saw it up close, and I think that, you know,
you look at you know, the NBA. You know what
happened to the Celtics after that, you know, and they
actually made it back to the finals that year. But
then that that's when everybody got old pretty quickly. And
then I've lead the tragedy with Reggie Lewis a few
years later. The the when you look at where the
(18:07):
NBA was, he he would have he could have, you know,
he he could have changed sort of the the the
that ten fifteen year period of the NBA in terms
of dominant teams and players and legacies and everything like that.
Speaker 2 (18:29):
Had he lived, he could have done a lot of things.
That's the that's the part of this that is the
most confounding, is the the what could have been part?
Speaker 1 (18:40):
You know it?
Speaker 2 (18:41):
And but back then, you know, that was the drug era.
I mean the nineteen eighty six draft. You know, sadly,
Len Bias wasn't the only one that drugs ruined, you know,
William Bedford, Roy Tarpley, Chris Washburn. I mean, there was
a long laundry list of players that didn't suffer the
same kind of tragedy as Lenn but that had tragic
(19:04):
outcomes or at least profoundly sad outcomes to their careers
because of drug use.
Speaker 1 (19:11):
Yeah. You when we spoke to you back in twenty twenty,
you talk very passionately. I mean I almost felt like
there were you know, there were tears. You know, that's
how emotional you seem to be about this whole issue
of the drug laws and how it all went back
(19:33):
to you know, bias his death in terms of the
way politicians used his death to promote their you know, legislation.
Did you did you get a sense of that at
the time or because obviously you were going to law school,
you were you know, you were going to start your
career as a lawyer at some point, or or is
(19:53):
that something that you you sort of as as you
studied it over the years and saw how it evolved
that you know it is it is a terrible byproduct
of of his you know, of his death.
Speaker 2 (20:06):
A little bit of both, mostly the latter. That the
results of it, UH have have been particularly tragic. When
I think the the it almost becomes cliche to say
that that while len Bias' death was tragic, he probably
saved a lot of lives with the story. I don't
(20:31):
believe that at all. I would love it to be true,
but it's not. In my view, len Bias's death led
to UH profound misery, heartache, and and tragedy for untold
amounts of Americans. And that's because of federal drug sentencing laws,
(20:56):
mandatory sentencing, which affected largely African American defendants. So you've
had people for you know, minimal drug crimes languishing in
prison for years and years for no good. The federal
mandatory sentencing even to this day, has been a horrible outcome, uh,
(21:23):
for for America and for for so many Americans, and
largely African American. And I can't think of anything more
tragic than you pile on to a tragedy with multiple
tragedies that have tentacles that keep going out, you know,
(21:44):
families being ruined. I mean, it's awful it's awful, and
it's a stain uh sustain on our government and those decisions,
and the fact that we haven't as a country been
able to view it objectively and say this is wrong,
we need to change this. It always saddens me thinking
(22:08):
about it.
Speaker 1 (22:09):
Do you think now, given where we are politically in
this country, given you know, obviously you know, we're still
coming out or we're in the middle of a pandemic,
We're still we're not even you know, I thought we
were coming out of it, and now with this new
delta variant, looks like we're back going back in it.
Do you think there's a there's going to be a
(22:35):
push to get rid of these mandatory minimums? Or is it?
Or or do we have so many other things that
we have to deal with at this point that it's
still going to be, you know, something that we're going
to be fighting for, you know, trying to trying to
rectify and right the wrong.
Speaker 2 (22:52):
Yeah, it's a big topic, big issue, and there are
so many, so many layers to it. I think the
short answer for me is, I don't. I'm not optimistic
we're gonna we're going to make substantial progress in the
short run. Has been going on a long time, and
there has been uh some some progress over the last
(23:13):
several years. But you know, we're we're a country that incarcerates.
I mean, nobody incarceraates like we do. The answer is,
you know, for many is just lock lock them up,
and and I I think it's profoundly wrong. But you know,
my confident that our government, both state and federal, but
(23:33):
especially federal with federal drug crimes, we're going to be
able to you know, look at the damage that's been
done and and not not just reverse it, but at
least try to stem the tide of it. I don't
have a lot of confidence that will do that in
an efficient way.
Speaker 1 (23:51):
I spoke before about the last summer. We're in the
middle of the last dance. ESPN did a thirty three
hour or sort of remembering Land Bias, and you spoke
about how kids today, you know, a lot of them
don't even know who Bias was. They maybe heard the name.
(24:13):
What Why thirty five years later are we still talking
about this guy? Uh, there's interest in this guy. I
mean I talked and talked about the Ringer doing the
podcast this this this year on him. Why Why is it?
Why do you think there's so much is it is?
It is almost because he's he's sort of a large
(24:33):
you know, larger in death than in life figures, as
actors and singers and other people have been.
Speaker 2 (24:43):
That's a really good question. I think it's another thing
that's that's layered. It's multi layered. I would say, similar
to you know, we may still harken back to the
you know, nineteen nineteen Chicago White Sox scandal or Pete
(25:03):
Rose or things like that, that it was. It was
sort of the idea of true greatness that was derailed
by a profound tragedy. And it wasn't just Lend Bias
was a great player, because he was an amazing, amazing player,
not that that's not enough to be remembered for all
(25:25):
this time. But then on the you know, right after
this crowning achievement of being drafted by the Boston Celtics,
after a fabulous Hall of Fame career in college, he dies,
and on top of that, it's not just that he
tragically passed away. He passed away from drug use that
(25:49):
was a scourge on our communities at the time, and
you know, it just the profound sadness of all of that,
you know, it's there's it just hits you on a
different level. So I think all those things combined that
what might have been aspect of it, the timing of it,
(26:12):
it just it captures like the people who knew him
feel it obviously on a different level, the people who
watched him understand what he was as a player. And
then it just I can't tell you how often I
get asked, even now, was he really all that?
Speaker 1 (26:35):
Like how good was he?
Speaker 2 (26:37):
And you wind up, you know, talking on a golf
course with somebody, and you know it's like it's like
you saw like like I saw Babe Ruth play or something.
You wind up talking about it a lot. I think
it's those three things first and foremost though, that that
keeps his his memory alive in that profound way. There
(27:00):
may be other things, but you know, it's it's I'll
never I'll never stop thinking about it. There'll never be
a time when, you know, the draft, the draft passes
and I won't think about you know, Len Bias died
right right about now. That'll always be a milestone. Just
(27:21):
like for my parents, they remember exactly where they were
when they learned that that President Kennedy was assassinated in
nineteen sixty three. I'll I'll always remember where I was
when I learned that len Bias died.
Speaker 1 (27:35):
I was stable. He when he wrote the book. He
started something called the Born Ready Project, and he spoke
at schools about decision making. And we're working with a
group here that teaches young people how to make good
decisions and things like that. Is biased thirty five years later,
(27:57):
still somebody who they could relate to, you know, his
story or or in this generation do you have to
find somebody else who's made a mistake? I mean, how
how how much? You know, how long will his legacy
go on in that regard in terms of you can
use him as a questionary tale.
Speaker 2 (28:16):
Well, you can always use use him and others as
a cautionary tale. But it doesn't work. I think it
might work for a couple of people here and there.
But it's just like right right after Len Bias died,
you know, Don Rogers died, the former U C. L
(28:37):
A defensive back, and you know that and that that
was another part of this, this whole thing with with
federal drug sentencing laws, all of those things. You know,
how many cautionary tales are there out there about not
just about drug use, but about drinking, about you know,
driving too fast, all these things. You know, does it work?
Speaker 1 (29:02):
I don't know.
Speaker 2 (29:02):
I don't. I don't think it did with with drug use.
I mean, that's a that's a whole whole different ballgame.
Where you're talking about addiction, you can use cautionary tales.
They try them all the time with you can't turn
your TV on without seeing ads about the evils of smoking.
And does it really stop people from smoking when they're
addictive addictive properties to it. I don't know the answer.
(29:27):
I'm maybe a little more cynical about that kind of
thing because we've all sat through those and I think
the people that resonates with are the ones that wouldn't
do it in the first place. I don't know. I
wish I were more optimistic about, you know, the cautionary
tale stuff. I just don't think the data shows that
(29:49):
it's doing a hell of a lot of good.
Speaker 1 (29:51):
How much did you pay attention And now, obviously by
the time Maryland had won the national championship in basketball,
you were you were in the midst of your your
your broadcasting career, or well maybe not let me let
me think when did you know you were definitely no,
I'm just trying to think how many years we were
on the bench at Duke and then law school. So
(30:15):
when you look at what Maryland did and what happened
to Maryland after Bias, I mean it took it. You know,
they hire you know, Lefty, Lefty leaves, they hire Bob Wade.
Gary comes in and then they go on probation and
it takes them a while. How much do you think
Bias's death, you know, impacted that and and how big
(30:37):
an achievement do you think it is for Maryland to
have overcome that? And and maybe other schools have done
that as well with other situations, whether it's probation or
a tragedy, But how how remarkable achievement was it for
Gary to do what he did well?
Speaker 2 (30:54):
I mean, Maryland suffered an unspeakable trauma with Bias' death,
and the reaction was swift and far reaching. A lot
of people lost their careers over that, or at least
had their careers derailed and sent in a completely different direction.
(31:15):
Didn't mean they didn't they didn't move forward and pick
up some pieces and all that, but it was it
was a trauma, and it was a trauma that lasted
for a long long time, just like whether you know
you look at Penn State, that that the trauma the
Penn State suffered and the reaction to that, which in
(31:36):
some cases, and I think in Maryland's was an overreaction,
but all the same, you know, they they they over
You could argue that it was an overcorrection and overreaction. Uh.
And it put them, you know, they were in a hole,
and they started digging once they got in it, which
is not a good idea. But when Gary Williams came in,
(31:58):
you had somebody who was clear ride and and had
a mission and understood the issue and and it was
a it was a wonderful, wonderful job that he did,
of of establishing Maryland as a national power, uh in
a in a league full of entrenched power. So he
(32:19):
put the program on a better footing than it had
ever been on before, and it had been on a
pretty darn good footing uh in the in the seventies
and eighties. What I would say, though, you know, it's
I don't know, it's it's it's interesting. When when I
was broadcasting in the I would say late nineties early
(32:40):
two thousands, Maryland was not fond of a person like
me mentioning len bias on the air. And I actually
had some media relations people come to me and said,
we'd really appreciate if you wouldn't wouldn't talk about bias
on the air. They didn't want, they didn't want to discussed.
It was still an open wound for the university and
(33:04):
the program, and it was even though it had been
so many years, it was still something they felt like
was dragged people's minds to an area they didn't want
it to be in. And I said, no, I mean
I talked, I mentioned it or talked about bias or
(33:25):
whatever where it was appropriate and so I'm not. I mean,
I mean, you can, you can certainly ask me not
to do it, but I'm I'm doing I'm going to
say what I want to say, and if you got
a problem with that, you can talk to my bosses.
That really pissed me off. When when and it was
coming from a good place, I believe, and the people
that asked were you know, I still interact with and love,
(33:50):
but I that pissed me off pretty good.
Speaker 1 (33:53):
I didn't like that, and you know, to that point,
it took till twenty fourteen for him to be elected
to the Maryland Athletic Hall of Fame. You know, I
remember a few years ago I saw that they had
to bias his picture on a ticket, and it was
the first time I had ever seen and he mentioned this.
(34:13):
This might have been pre before he got into the
Hall of Fame and with when Kevin Anderson was there
as the ad and it was the first time that
they ever you know, they ever sort of acknowledged him
and then they gave him you know, so it was
really I mean, I'm not surprised to hear that. You know,
it was almost like they were embarrassed by what happened,
(34:35):
as opposed to saying it was you know, it was
a total It was a tragedy. I mean, he did
it to himself, but it was still a tragedy.
Speaker 2 (34:42):
Yeah, And it wasn't I think it went deeper that
they were embarrassed about it. I think it went more to,
you know the fact that they wanted to separate from it.
There were so many people that were injured by it.
They cleaned house. I remember they getting rid of John
Slaughter all that stuff, So there were a lot of
a lot of layers to it, and and and again,
(35:03):
I mean, it was a trauma. It wasn't just that somebody,
you know, somebody that had gone to school, there, had
been prominent, had had sadly passed away. It was it
was a traumatic thing. And the trauma kept going and
and it was like a h Again, there were tentacles
of it that grabbed everyone and uh and took a
(35:24):
lot of people down as a result, including left eagers.
I mean we can count up all the people. I mean,
it was was profoundly sad, but there were also there
are also a lot of people out there. And look,
I'm not going to argue with with how people feel
about things, but you know, there are things that were said,
uh that I heard that really upset me. And one
(35:46):
of them was when when Jay Bias tragically died, I
heard someone say about their mother that maybe if she
weren't out giving speeches all the time, she would have
been able to do something about about that. I'm like,
how could you say that? Where's the empathy and compassion
for for the horrible tragedy suffered? You know, like, so
(36:11):
you you don't want their their mother to be out
trying to help it like, like to your point trying
to help educate young people that you know you need
to avoid this, you know, the cautionary tale aspect of that.
And it's not that that wasn't the only thing I
heard in in that vein. And and you know, you
(36:33):
just kind of shake your head, going where where does
this kind of of mean spirited stuff come from? Uh?
And that that's kind of to my point earlier about
being cynical about his his death being you know, positive
in other people's lives. I just I've seen it just
(36:54):
as a as a horrible traumatic negative that had far
reaching negative consequences. And uh, and it should not have.
We could have avoided doing like doing these things like
these federals said that the action that Congress took or
the actions just awful. I mean, it's just awful. And
(37:16):
uh and I'll always I'll always be saddened by by
that and the fact that his his passing wasn't just
a tragedy that we lost one great person. We we
lost a lot of great people because of that.
Speaker 3 (37:32):
Len Bias A Mixed Legacy. The interviews was produced by
Daveon Grady and Don Marcus Get It All Wrong Quick
and Len bias. A mixed legacy is distributed by the
eighth side, Greatness and laws, let you know them all.
Speaker 1 (37:51):
Other memories, Remember me,
Minnesota, said ASA, Hello, this is Don Marcus, one of
the co producers of Len Bias A Mixed Legacy. We
continue our series on the interviews with the discussion I
was able to have with Jay Billis, broadcaster, attorney, and
former Duke center. Jay Billis is someone who knows the
Len Bias story personally and on all levels. Jay's four
(00:20):
years with the Blue Devils coincided with Len's career in
College Park, including a game at Cameron Indoor Stadium which
Bias scored a career high forty one points. Billis speaks
to how great a player Bias was, putting him in
the same company with another two time ACC Player of
the Year Michael Jordan, as well as three time ACC
Player of the Year Ralph Sampson. Billis speaks passionately about
(00:43):
the impact of Bias's death had on himself and society,
and as an attorney, he speaks to the devastating legal
fallout to the lives of those incarcerated by the mandatory
minimum sentencing laws following Bias's tragic death on June nineteenth,
nineteen eighty six. When we spoke back in February twenty twenty,
(01:04):
you know, obviously you played against him. You were part
of that barnstorming team, so you got to know him
a little. I assume that's really where you got to
know him more than any other time, when you were
at Duke. Is that true or did you know them before? Well?
Speaker 2 (01:19):
I knew him before. I mean we got to know
each other playing against each other throughout four years of college.
I didn't know him in high school simply because he
grew up in Maryland. I grew up in Los Angeles,
So there weren't the same sort of national tournaments for
AAU that you have now. There are only a few
of them, so the players didn't run into each other
coast to coast as much as they do now. But yeah,
(01:41):
we knew each other, and all my teammates knew him,
especially the guys that grew up in the DC area.
Speaker 1 (01:48):
Yeah, you've told the stories over the years about the
games against the games against Duke, and the forty one
point game, the the the ACC Championship game, tournament game
(02:08):
was that that that tournament game in eighty four, the
finals was that sort of you know, his coming out party.
I mean in terms of this is a guy who's
going to be a star or did you know it
before that?
Speaker 2 (02:22):
We knew it before that. We knew it our freshman year.
You know, he played on a team that had some
older guys, but and probably averaged ten ten points a
game whatever it was his first year. But after that,
in our sophomore year, he took off and took off
right away. So and was was the best player. And
they had good players at Adrian Branch and Keith Gatlin
(02:44):
and Ben Coleman, Hermanfale, all these guys, but we knew
Bias was their best player. It didn't take very long
to figure that out. So it wasn't that we didn't know.
I can't speak to what others. You know that that
was back when national television wasn't ubiquitous, So you know,
you appeared on NBC and by us. You know, they
(03:05):
beat us for the a SEC Championship on a Sunday
afternoon game and he has twenty six or whatever it was,
and it was his usual superman self. So the fact
that the masses may have seen him for the first time,
it wasn't a surprise to us.
Speaker 1 (03:26):
I mean, by by then his game was starting to,
you know, come come together. It was not just athleticism.
He by then, I think he sort of had the
developing of that great jump shot that I saw one
because I only covered him the senior year. Was that
what made you know, what made him so difficult is
(03:48):
because you know, in basketball, of the guys that athletic
usually you know, a lot of those guys can't shoot,
so you play off of him. He couldn't play off
of him because he had such a good jump shot.
So was he almost impossible once he got to that level,
almost impossible to guard?
Speaker 2 (04:04):
Yeah, well he was impossible guard. And I mean the
truth is most players can't shoot, whether athletic or not.
But so so that's why shooters are in such high
demand and always have been. But Bias had a beautiful
jump shot and always had that. His form was impeccable
from day one. I just think, you know, the fact
that back then freshmen weren't relied upon as they are now,
(04:29):
So it was a little bit of a different era
in that regard.
Speaker 1 (04:32):
But by the.
Speaker 2 (04:33):
Time he became a sophomore and was, you know, sort
of the lead dog for Maryland, it was a it
was an issue of confidence and them going to him.
So he was really more assertive his sophomore year and beyond.
More than anything. It wasn't that he didn't have that
jump shot as a freshman, he just wasn't asserted, an
(04:53):
assertive player and a go to player in that regard.
His his leticism was off the charts, and especially as
a two footed jumper. He wasn't one of those you know,
kind of take off of one foot guys, but off
of two he was so powerful and graceful and elegant
(05:17):
with that power. But his jump shot was a separating
factor because he could rise, he had a high release point.
He could rise up so high to get it off.
He could shoot over anybody, and he had really great range.
You put those two things together and it's a hard
combination to stop. And then you know, his last two
(05:37):
years he made you know, well over eighty percent from
the free throw lines. He couldn't follow him.
Speaker 1 (05:44):
I remember the thing that struck me about that forty
one point game at Cameron was the fact that Gatlin
didn't play. So here he's playing without his point guard
to feed him the ball and he still gets forty one.
You guys win. But but I know Mike has said,
Mike said over the years that you know it was
(06:04):
the greatest, you know performance. So I don't know if
he said with with performed by Jordan, but it may
have been the greatest performance by a visiting player, you know,
in his time. Whenever he said it, what what what
memories do you have of that game? And and and
what was going on in the huddle during that game?
Speaker 2 (06:23):
The memory was we couldn't stop him. We knew we
were gonna win. We were better in Maryland, whether whether
they had a full compliment or not, we were the
better team. So we knew we were gonna win, but
we couldn't stop him. And guys were coming back to
the bench saying, I'm trying to foul him, I can't
even follow him. And uh so we we uh, we
knew how good he was. I don't think that, you know,
(06:48):
during games, our players were ever in awe of anyone,
but after games you knew, you know, you respected who
could really you know, who was separate, separated, and he
was separate it from the crowd. You know. There were
only a few players that I heard our best players
talk about with reverence back then. One was Jordan, uh
(07:12):
the other was Bias and and a third was Rod
Strickland of DePaul our guards. You know, after we played
DePaul were like Rod Strickland, man, that dude is the
real deal. You know, like stuff like that, which they do.
You know, they didn't say very often, but those those
three stood out above above others.
Speaker 1 (07:34):
You know, it was almost I mean, you know they
had that. You had the game with Maryland Carolina that
ESPN showed last summer, and and Jordan Leaves and and
and and bias. I mean, you guys had great players.
Johnny Dawkins great player, and Amaker and Allery and there
and there you know, Brad Dougherty's in the league, you
(07:56):
know is as a great player, and Kenny Smith and
it was an unbelievable conference of uh you know it.
Back then, would you say that bias just just from
a you know, as if you had to pick one
guy from that that group to start, you know, if
you were playing pickup, would he be and and all
(08:18):
those guys are available, what would would he have been
the first guy picked? Yes?
Speaker 2 (08:23):
I mean he was the second guy picked in the draft.
And he was only picked second because Brad Dherty's seven
feet and you know, back then that was the that
was the thing. I mean in today's game, you wouldn't
hesitate to pick Bias first. And he was two time
ACC Player of the Year. It's not like you know,
it was any secret. It wasn't a secret he was
the best player and uh and we knew it. Uh.
(08:43):
And that's why it was so exciting when he got
drafted by Boston, the idea that he was going to
play for the Celtics and you know, he'd be a
Hall of Fame caliber player for them, and uh and
I believe you would have been a legitimate challenger to
Jordan for best player in the league. That's a tall
order to say he would have been as good or better,
(09:05):
but I'm I believe that would have been the case.
But you know it, it speaks to the level of
the tragedy that you have to explain to younger people
how good he was and direct them to you know,
old grainy video to confirm it. You know, it's it's
(09:27):
profoundly sad that that that legacy wasn't he wasn't able
to complete it because I think I think it would
have been epic and uh, and we wouldn't have to
explain it. You just say, go, look like you didn't
have to explain it with Jordan and maybe the young
people today. You know, we're educated by you know, the
last Dance, but there's there's no there's no record for
(09:52):
them to look toward in the NBA for for bias
and just the feeling never goes away of sad us.
Speaker 1 (10:01):
What was that? What was that barnstorming tour like in
terms of because he was I didn't realized this. I
mean it was mostly, if not all North Carolina guys
players who played at North Carolina, at North Carolina schools.
Speaker 2 (10:15):
I think, well that was that was the majority of
the ACC back then, or at least you know, but
you know, there were only eight teams in the league,
so that was a There were two different barnstorming tours.
Neil mcgahe had one and a guy named Mike Sumner
had the other. So we played a lot of games.
We played basically after the NCAA Championship game in Dallas
(10:38):
that we played in in nineteen eighty six, we played
in Newbern, North Carolina that Tuesday night for cash and
we did that the remainder of that month, So we
probably played twenty five Knights in a row something like that.
And Neil mcgahey had the bigger games. So he had
the games that were like played at a college arena
(11:01):
or Greensboro Colisee and whatever it was, Leonora Ryan and
then Sumner had the places that you know, it was
more of the you played at the high school gym.
So Bias and uh, Speedy Jones, those guys only played
in a few of those games, probably a handful. It was.
(11:22):
It was a longer trip for him too, because the
tour was down in North Carolina.
Speaker 1 (11:26):
Yeah, was there any uh, because Dave had talked to
Chris Washburn at one point and I think Washburn was
on that tour and he said that that that Bias
came to his room one night with cocaine. Was there
any talk back then? I mean, obviously there was always
(11:49):
talk of you know, there were guys like David Thompson
who were struggling, John Lucas who were struggling, and and
you know, was there ever any talk about anything going
on the accor with Bias or was when it happened
on June nineteenth, total shock.
Speaker 2 (12:06):
It was total shock for me. I didn't know any
of that was going on with regard to particular players.
You certainly knew it was going on in society and
at your school. You don't want to you don't want
to be flippant and say that was all over the place.
But it was not unusual to run into that kind
of discussion. But when we were out barnstorming together, there
(12:32):
weren't a lot of hotel stays for us because we
could get to and from games pretty easily, so we
didn't have to stay overnight. So I don't recall, you know,
we went out a couple times with players, but it
wasn't you know, it wasn't something we did often. We
were playing those things for money, so we went, we performed,
(12:54):
we got our money, we went home. But so I
didn't hear anything about really any of those players or
anything about len bias. There was never a hint of
that to me, And I understand, like, like, look, I'm
not naive. I'd be surprised if something like that was
someone's first time, but I don't. I don't know that,
(13:17):
But I don't have any any evidence to dispute it either, right.
Speaker 1 (13:23):
I mean, people talk about when when they heard it,
they heard the drugs were involved, just because of how
good a player he was and the level at which
he performed and what he looked like I mean, he
was you know, you said Superman before. I mean he
looked like he you know, he didn't look like a
lot of guys back in those days because he he
(13:44):
was into waits. He had sculpted his body. So did
that add to the shock of it because of how
he looked to you? The memory you had of him
when it happened on June nineteen, when you heard, you know,
when you were out in California.
Speaker 2 (13:58):
It was just the overall you know, Bias was a
supermanlike figure. So when you got the shocking you know,
the shocking news, you know, it wasn't because of any
one thing. It was the overall aura he had as
a player. He's just different. It was different in how
(14:22):
good he was, the way he carried himself, how he looked,
the way he played. Everything was sort of above. He
had a level above the overwhelming majority of guys that
played and or at least that I played against and saw.
Speaker 1 (14:38):
And then.
Speaker 2 (14:39):
But the shock also was the timing of it. You know,
it's so close to something that was life changing for
for him. You know, you don't expect that ever, but
if it, I don't know how I would have felt
if it would have been an accident or you know,
(15:01):
some sort of automobile accent or something like that, whether
you could wrap your head around a little bit more,
it just seemed that, uh, you know, the the day
after the NBA draft and then it being an overdose
and and all that it was, there were so many
factors to it that that gave you a gut punch
(15:23):
and uh. And I don't have many things in my
life where I knew exactly where I was. You know
where I was when I heard something. I remember that
like it was yesterday.
Speaker 1 (15:34):
Yeah, and you said you were at in California. I
remember you telling us you were at in California.
Speaker 2 (15:40):
I was at home, Uh, at my visiting my parents
right after the draft and uh and my mom woke
me up, uh and told me and uh, you know,
there wasn't updates on your phone or anything back then.
You heard the news off television or radio or the
newspaper and uh. And I was actually sleeping in Los
(16:01):
Angeles and she woke me up and said, Len, biased
I'm like what. Yeah, I'll never forget that.
Speaker 1 (16:08):
Yeah. You may mentioned before about the comparison to Jordan,
at least in terms of how good a player he
might have been. Now there there you know people Bob
Ryan we talked to a couple of months ago. He said,
you know, he's he won't put him in the panther,
he won't put him on Mount Rushmore. You know, with
with with with Bird and and and and and Magic
(16:32):
and Jordan and I don't know who else he mentioned.
He said he was, you know, he he probably would
have been James Worthy, which is not bad, but you
you think because of who he was drafted with and
where the Celtics were at that point, that you know,
he would have at least been some sort of rival
to Jordan, and because just just naturally the teams would
(16:54):
have been rivals.
Speaker 2 (16:56):
Well I don't I don't know. I didn't hear Bob
say that, so I don't know whether he was talking
about had Bias lived, he would have been as good
as Worthy, or his talent level dictated this. What I'm
saying is his talent level was Jordan esque, and he
would I believe, and he was a far better shooter
(17:16):
coming out of college and Jordan was. It wasn't close.
I would have, like I believe, he would have been
one of the all time greats. And during that period
he would have been a challenger to Michael Jordan as
the best player in the league. Now, I refuse to
say he would have been as good or better. I
you know, that's that's a bridge too far from me.
(17:37):
But he would have been a challenger. And and you know,
I believe that down to my socks.
Speaker 1 (17:43):
I saw it up close, and I think that, you know,
you look at you know, the NBA. You know what
happened to the Celtics after that, you know, and they
actually made it back to the finals that year. But
then that that's when everybody got old pretty quickly. And
then I've lead the tragedy with Reggie Lewis a few
years later. The the when you look at where the
(18:07):
NBA was, he he would have he could have, you know,
he he could have changed sort of the the the
that ten fifteen year period of the NBA in terms
of dominant teams and players and legacies and everything like that.
Speaker 2 (18:29):
Had he lived, he could have done a lot of things.
That's the that's the part of this that is the
most confounding, is the the what could have been part?
Speaker 1 (18:40):
You know it?
Speaker 2 (18:41):
And but back then, you know, that was the drug era.
I mean the nineteen eighty six draft. You know, sadly,
Len Bias wasn't the only one that drugs ruined, you know,
William Bedford, Roy Tarpley, Chris Washburn. I mean, there was
a long laundry list of players that didn't suffer the
same kind of tragedy as Lenn but that had tragic
(19:04):
outcomes or at least profoundly sad outcomes to their careers
because of drug use.
Speaker 1 (19:11):
Yeah. You when we spoke to you back in twenty twenty,
you talk very passionately. I mean I almost felt like
there were you know, there were tears. You know, that's
how emotional you seem to be about this whole issue
of the drug laws and how it all went back
(19:33):
to you know, bias his death in terms of the
way politicians used his death to promote their you know, legislation.
Did you did you get a sense of that at
the time or because obviously you were going to law school,
you were you know, you were going to start your
career as a lawyer at some point, or or is
(19:53):
that something that you you sort of as as you
studied it over the years and saw how it evolved
that you know it is it is a terrible byproduct
of of his you know, of his death.
Speaker 2 (20:06):
A little bit of both, mostly the latter. That the
results of it, UH have have been particularly tragic. When
I think the the it almost becomes cliche to say
that that while len Bias' death was tragic, he probably
saved a lot of lives with the story. I don't
(20:31):
believe that at all. I would love it to be true,
but it's not. In my view, len Bias's death led
to UH profound misery, heartache, and and tragedy for untold
amounts of Americans. And that's because of federal drug sentencing laws,
(20:56):
mandatory sentencing, which affected largely African American defendants. So you've
had people for you know, minimal drug crimes languishing in
prison for years and years for no good. The federal
mandatory sentencing even to this day, has been a horrible outcome, uh,
(21:23):
for for America and for for so many Americans, and
largely African American. And I can't think of anything more
tragic than you pile on to a tragedy with multiple
tragedies that have tentacles that keep going out, you know,
(21:44):
families being ruined. I mean, it's awful it's awful, and
it's a stain uh sustain on our government and those decisions,
and the fact that we haven't as a country been
able to view it objectively and say this is wrong,
we need to change this. It always saddens me thinking
(22:08):
about it.
Speaker 1 (22:09):
Do you think now, given where we are politically in
this country, given you know, obviously you know, we're still
coming out or we're in the middle of a pandemic,
We're still we're not even you know, I thought we
were coming out of it, and now with this new
delta variant, looks like we're back going back in it.
Do you think there's a there's going to be a
(22:35):
push to get rid of these mandatory minimums? Or is it?
Or or do we have so many other things that
we have to deal with at this point that it's
still going to be, you know, something that we're going
to be fighting for, you know, trying to trying to
rectify and right the wrong.
Speaker 2 (22:52):
Yeah, it's a big topic, big issue, and there are
so many, so many layers to it. I think the
short answer for me is, I don't. I'm not optimistic
we're gonna we're going to make substantial progress in the
short run. Has been going on a long time, and
there has been uh some some progress over the last
(23:13):
several years. But you know, we're we're a country that incarcerates.
I mean, nobody incarceraates like we do. The answer is,
you know, for many is just lock lock them up,
and and I I think it's profoundly wrong. But you know,
my confident that our government, both state and federal, but
(23:33):
especially federal with federal drug crimes, we're going to be
able to you know, look at the damage that's been
done and and not not just reverse it, but at
least try to stem the tide of it. I don't
have a lot of confidence that will do that in
an efficient way.
Speaker 1 (23:51):
I spoke before about the last summer. We're in the
middle of the last dance. ESPN did a thirty three
hour or sort of remembering Land Bias, and you spoke
about how kids today, you know, a lot of them
don't even know who Bias was. They maybe heard the name.
(24:13):
What Why thirty five years later are we still talking
about this guy? Uh, there's interest in this guy. I
mean I talked and talked about the Ringer doing the
podcast this this this year on him. Why Why is it?
Why do you think there's so much is it is?
It is almost because he's he's sort of a large
(24:33):
you know, larger in death than in life figures, as
actors and singers and other people have been.
Speaker 2 (24:43):
That's a really good question. I think it's another thing
that's that's layered. It's multi layered. I would say, similar
to you know, we may still harken back to the
you know, nineteen nineteen Chicago White Sox scandal or Pete
(25:03):
Rose or things like that, that it was. It was
sort of the idea of true greatness that was derailed
by a profound tragedy. And it wasn't just Lend Bias
was a great player, because he was an amazing, amazing player,
not that that's not enough to be remembered for all
(25:25):
this time. But then on the you know, right after
this crowning achievement of being drafted by the Boston Celtics,
after a fabulous Hall of Fame career in college, he dies,
and on top of that, it's not just that he
tragically passed away. He passed away from drug use that
(25:49):
was a scourge on our communities at the time, and
you know, it just the profound sadness of all of that,
you know, it's there's it just hits you on a
different level. So I think all those things combined that
what might have been aspect of it, the timing of it,
(26:12):
it just it captures like the people who knew him
feel it obviously on a different level, the people who
watched him understand what he was as a player. And
then it just I can't tell you how often I
get asked, even now, was he really all that?
Speaker 1 (26:35):
Like how good was he?
Speaker 2 (26:37):
And you wind up, you know, talking on a golf
course with somebody, and you know it's like it's like
you saw like like I saw Babe Ruth play or something.
You wind up talking about it a lot. I think
it's those three things first and foremost though, that that
keeps his his memory alive in that profound way. There
(27:00):
may be other things, but you know, it's it's I'll
never I'll never stop thinking about it. There'll never be
a time when, you know, the draft, the draft passes
and I won't think about you know, Len Bias died
right right about now. That'll always be a milestone. Just
(27:21):
like for my parents, they remember exactly where they were
when they learned that that President Kennedy was assassinated in
nineteen sixty three. I'll I'll always remember where I was
when I learned that len Bias died.
Speaker 1 (27:35):
I was stable. He when he wrote the book. He
started something called the Born Ready Project, and he spoke
at schools about decision making. And we're working with a
group here that teaches young people how to make good
decisions and things like that. Is biased thirty five years later,
(27:57):
still somebody who they could relate to, you know, his
story or or in this generation do you have to
find somebody else who's made a mistake? I mean, how
how how much? You know, how long will his legacy
go on in that regard in terms of you can
use him as a questionary tale.
Speaker 2 (28:16):
Well, you can always use use him and others as
a cautionary tale. But it doesn't work. I think it
might work for a couple of people here and there.
But it's just like right right after Len Bias died,
you know, Don Rogers died, the former U C. L
(28:37):
A defensive back, and you know that and that that
was another part of this, this whole thing with with
federal drug sentencing laws, all of those things. You know,
how many cautionary tales are there out there about not
just about drug use, but about drinking, about you know,
driving too fast, all these things. You know, does it work?
Speaker 1 (29:02):
I don't know.
Speaker 2 (29:02):
I don't. I don't think it did with with drug use.
I mean, that's a that's a whole whole different ballgame.
Where you're talking about addiction, you can use cautionary tales.
They try them all the time with you can't turn
your TV on without seeing ads about the evils of smoking.
And does it really stop people from smoking when they're
addictive addictive properties to it. I don't know the answer.
(29:27):
I'm maybe a little more cynical about that kind of
thing because we've all sat through those and I think
the people that resonates with are the ones that wouldn't
do it in the first place. I don't know. I
wish I were more optimistic about, you know, the cautionary
tale stuff. I just don't think the data shows that
(29:49):
it's doing a hell of a lot of good.
Speaker 1 (29:51):
How much did you pay attention And now, obviously by
the time Maryland had won the national championship in basketball,
you were you were in the midst of your your
your broadcasting career, or well maybe not let me let
me think when did you know you were definitely no,
I'm just trying to think how many years we were
on the bench at Duke and then law school. So
(30:15):
when you look at what Maryland did and what happened
to Maryland after Bias, I mean it took it. You know,
they hire you know, Lefty, Lefty leaves, they hire Bob Wade.
Gary comes in and then they go on probation and
it takes them a while. How much do you think
Bias's death, you know, impacted that and and how big
(30:37):
an achievement do you think it is for Maryland to
have overcome that? And and maybe other schools have done
that as well with other situations, whether it's probation or
a tragedy, But how how remarkable achievement was it for
Gary to do what he did well?
Speaker 2 (30:54):
I mean, Maryland suffered an unspeakable trauma with Bias' death,
and the reaction was swift and far reaching. A lot
of people lost their careers over that, or at least
had their careers derailed and sent in a completely different direction.
(31:15):
Didn't mean they didn't they didn't move forward and pick
up some pieces and all that, but it was it
was a trauma, and it was a trauma that lasted
for a long long time, just like whether you know
you look at Penn State, that that the trauma the
Penn State suffered and the reaction to that, which in
(31:36):
some cases, and I think in Maryland's was an overreaction,
but all the same, you know, they they they over
You could argue that it was an overcorrection and overreaction. Uh.
And it put them, you know, they were in a hole,
and they started digging once they got in it, which
is not a good idea. But when Gary Williams came in,
(31:58):
you had somebody who was clear ride and and had
a mission and understood the issue and and it was
a it was a wonderful, wonderful job that he did,
of of establishing Maryland as a national power, uh in
a in a league full of entrenched power. So he
(32:19):
put the program on a better footing than it had
ever been on before, and it had been on a
pretty darn good footing uh in the in the seventies
and eighties. What I would say, though, you know, it's
I don't know, it's it's it's interesting. When when I
was broadcasting in the I would say late nineties early
(32:40):
two thousands, Maryland was not fond of a person like
me mentioning len bias on the air. And I actually
had some media relations people come to me and said,
we'd really appreciate if you wouldn't wouldn't talk about bias
on the air. They didn't want, they didn't want to discussed.
It was still an open wound for the university and
(33:04):
the program, and it was even though it had been
so many years, it was still something they felt like
was dragged people's minds to an area they didn't want
it to be in. And I said, no, I mean
I talked, I mentioned it or talked about bias or
(33:25):
whatever where it was appropriate and so I'm not. I mean,
I mean, you can, you can certainly ask me not
to do it, but I'm I'm doing I'm going to
say what I want to say, and if you got
a problem with that, you can talk to my bosses.
That really pissed me off. When when and it was
coming from a good place, I believe, and the people
that asked were you know, I still interact with and love,
(33:50):
but I that pissed me off pretty good.
Speaker 1 (33:53):
I didn't like that, and you know, to that point,
it took till twenty fourteen for him to be elected
to the Maryland Athletic Hall of Fame. You know, I
remember a few years ago I saw that they had
to bias his picture on a ticket, and it was
the first time I had ever seen and he mentioned this.
(34:13):
This might have been pre before he got into the
Hall of Fame and with when Kevin Anderson was there
as the ad and it was the first time that
they ever you know, they ever sort of acknowledged him
and then they gave him you know, so it was
really I mean, I'm not surprised to hear that. You know,
it was almost like they were embarrassed by what happened,
(34:35):
as opposed to saying it was you know, it was
a total It was a tragedy. I mean, he did
it to himself, but it was still a tragedy.
Speaker 2 (34:42):
Yeah, And it wasn't I think it went deeper that
they were embarrassed about it. I think it went more to,
you know the fact that they wanted to separate from it.
There were so many people that were injured by it.
They cleaned house. I remember they getting rid of John
Slaughter all that stuff, So there were a lot of
a lot of layers to it, and and and again,
(35:03):
I mean, it was a trauma. It wasn't just that somebody,
you know, somebody that had gone to school, there, had
been prominent, had had sadly passed away. It was it
was a traumatic thing. And the trauma kept going and
and it was like a h Again, there were tentacles
of it that grabbed everyone and uh and took a
(35:24):
lot of people down as a result, including left eagers.
I mean we can count up all the people. I mean,
it was was profoundly sad, but there were also there
are also a lot of people out there. And look,
I'm not going to argue with with how people feel
about things, but you know, there are things that were said,
uh that I heard that really upset me. And one
(35:46):
of them was when when Jay Bias tragically died, I
heard someone say about their mother that maybe if she
weren't out giving speeches all the time, she would have
been able to do something about about that. I'm like,
how could you say that? Where's the empathy and compassion
for for the horrible tragedy suffered? You know, like, so
(36:11):
you you don't want their their mother to be out
trying to help it like, like to your point trying
to help educate young people that you know you need
to avoid this, you know, the cautionary tale aspect of that.
And it's not that that wasn't the only thing I
heard in in that vein. And and you know, you
(36:33):
just kind of shake your head, going where where does
this kind of of mean spirited stuff come from? Uh?
And that that's kind of to my point earlier about
being cynical about his his death being you know, positive
in other people's lives. I just I've seen it just
(36:54):
as a as a horrible traumatic negative that had far
reaching negative consequences. And uh, and it should not have.
We could have avoided doing like doing these things like
these federals said that the action that Congress took or
the actions just awful. I mean, it's just awful. And
(37:16):
uh and I'll always I'll always be saddened by by
that and the fact that his his passing wasn't just
a tragedy that we lost one great person. We we
lost a lot of great people because of that.
Speaker 3 (37:32):
Len Bias A Mixed Legacy. The interviews was produced by
Daveon Grady and Don Marcus Get It All Wrong Quick
and Len bias. A mixed legacy is distributed by the
eighth side, Greatness and laws, let you know them all.
Speaker 1 (37:51):
Other memories, Remember me,
Popular Podcasts
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!
The Breakfast Club
The World's Most Dangerous Morning Show, The Breakfast Club, With DJ Envy And Charlamagne Tha God!
The Joe Rogan Experience
The official podcast of comedian Joe Rogan.