January 3, 2024 • 42 mins
Former NC State star and NBA center Chris Washburn talks with Executive Producer Dave Ungrady about his own struggles with drug use causing him to be in and out of basketball and the effect Len Bias's death had on his life and others. Certain claims in the interview made by Washburn are unsubstantiated and are not to be taken as statements or facts from the producers of this podcast.
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Uh get it all quick, and he was so Chris.
Speaker 2 (00:10):
You you may recall, Uh we had a couple of
recent conversations and I asked you how first you had
your barbecue place still going, that little restaurant.
Speaker 3 (00:21):
No, No, I closed it down a few years ago
because I uh got a certification as a peer support
specialist in North Carolina, which just mean that a prayer,
a person has gone through some things and got over it.
Uh now a live to go back and help some
other folks do the same thing. So once I got
(00:41):
that certification, I couldn't spend as much time at the
restaurant as I needed to be there. So the rest
things for me to do was just shut them down.
Speaker 4 (00:50):
So that leads me to my next question. I remember
reading that you were going to do something to help
I think it was youth or someone who was in
recovery or something. Can you plain what how that's work,
what's happening there, and how that's working?
Speaker 3 (01:03):
Well? What I s thought it was a program called Thoughts,
Action Consequences. And again it's not just for athletes, it's
for the student Uh. Actually the student body going to
different churches in the Speed, different youth groups in Speed uh.
And then again, it's just preparing the kids to be
ready for whenever they get to to where they're trying
to go in life, that they're if they're ready to
(01:25):
be there, you know. Unfortunately, say, when I got to
the NBA, I was prepared physically, but I wasn't prepared mentally,
you know. And and that comes for not surrounding myself
with people that were trying to do the same things.
So I try to get the kids to understand that
in order to get to it the next level, you
need to surround yourself which people are trying to do
(01:46):
the same things that you're trying to do.
Speaker 4 (01:49):
Can you say the name of the program again, slowly?
Speaker 3 (01:52):
It's called thoughts, Action consequences.
Speaker 4 (01:56):
Thoughts, Actions consequences. Great, Okay, they see is this something
that you started?
Speaker 3 (02:02):
I did? Yes, I did?
Speaker 4 (02:04):
And how many years has it been around?
Speaker 3 (02:08):
I'm looking at not ten years?
Speaker 4 (02:10):
Wow?
Speaker 3 (02:11):
One on eleven?
Speaker 4 (02:13):
And what's the Can you be a little more specific
on what you're focusing on with that? Obviously the name
says a lot, but can you give me examples how
you try to mentor these as well as the primarily
youth or adults as well?
Speaker 3 (02:27):
Can I say, anyone that's trying to get to the
next level in life, but trying to get into a
different position. I think this program here, this program can
help because again it doesn't just specify as athletes trying
to get to either college or to the pros. This
is just a general thing for UH in life. Like
I said, the versus just wants to be the top
(02:48):
UH manager or supervisor for McDonald's, or the next person
wants to be the next CEO at the company. If
you're not prepared when that opportunity or that or opens
for you, then once you get in there, you won't
stay lost. And a lot of times I go back
to myself because, like I said, I was prepared for
the NBA UH physically, I wasn't prepared mentally. And then
(03:10):
also my surrounding circle was so big that anybody could
get to me. So the main thing was that once,
once an opportunity presents hisself, you have to be ready
because that door may shut quicker than it opened up
for you.
Speaker 4 (03:29):
Okay, well, let's that's impressive. And I'm going to get
to when you were at NC State and when you
met Land and what happened in your friendship with him,
But can you give me an example or two of
some things that you're teaching these people. What are some
of the themes or what are some of the uh,
some of the briefer or two or three strong, strong
(03:50):
lessons or messages.
Speaker 3 (03:52):
What the maining lesson is is that although I was
sixty eleven at a young age, I was still a
follow and and and the guy as I was falling
were not guys that were trying to get to a
next level of sports or trying to do more positive things.
Although I was, I was a big kid, I was
I hung with older guys. You know, I was sixt
(04:14):
eleven when I was six seven in the seventh grade,
so that already put me in a different class so
people I could hang with because I could be in
the streets playing with guys my own age. But then
people would be like, why is this grown land playing
with these kids, not knowing that I'm a kid as well.
So I never really had a childhood. So when I
(04:35):
got with these older guys, I would kind of act
out and do things, and they were kind of laugh
and kind of you know, you know, smirk it off
because I was young, instead of kind of correcting what
I was doing because that that never changed as I
got older. You know, I kept still trying to if
I didn't understand that, I'm trying to be the funny one,
(04:56):
you know, in the group instead of, like I said, understanding.
So I want these kids to understand that it's all
right not to understand everything. You know what I'm saying,
It's only wrong when you don't ask questions, because when
the course is present to you and you can't answer it,
then people look at you like, you know, why are
you here? And then also I want the kids to
(05:18):
understand that all friends are not meant to go where
you go. You know, my thing was I wanted to
open the door for everybody to come in with me.
But but but everybody you know can't go, which is
the saying that I say out now, everybody I know
can't go where I go because we don't have the
same intention. And then also another thing is if you
(05:39):
get the chance to be an athlete or someone one
there changes their money status, that everybody jumps on your
wagon is not helping you go to the same goal.
So I'm just on the wagon to ride. You know,
someone ed see what you drop or they can pick
up what you might not miss, you know. And I
say that because I had agents back then that was
(06:01):
writing themselves checks and I lost seven hundred and fifty thousand,
and I never knew about it because I wasn't handling
my own finance. And then and then another big thing
is I want the kids to understand. So that's when
I talked to the college athletes, we need to take
a finance course, because again, once we get off to
this deal of money, don't want somebody just hading your
(06:23):
money and you know nothing about it like I did,
you know. And it's another fast funny coming from a
guy that only had a four four seventy esaight sport.
And again that's only because I never took the SAT.
At that time, the scores didn't matter, so I just
went in and I bubbled everything and went to sleep
for the three hours and left. And when the scores
came back, although the state gives you four hundred, I
(06:45):
only made seventy points on my on my own, so
it's like, you know, I may only got maybe two
questions right on the whole SAT. So then it goes
into how did this kid get into a Division I school?
You know what I'm saying he must be semi re target,
not understanding that I never took the actual test because
at that time, coach, we said, you've already tied your
(07:07):
sins the formality just going and take the test, and
you know, and and and that's it. Not knowing like
they said, I would go and bubble everything and go
to see the next thing. I know there was national
news and it This is even before the internet, you know.
So again I want the kids to understand that anything
in life, you know, you have to sit down and
especially for yourself, understand the things that's coming to you.
(07:30):
Understand your finance, Understand where money goes. Understanding that you
can't help everybody you know, and and and and just
shut the lit.
Speaker 4 (07:39):
Now are you Are you doing this primarily through speaking?
Are you doing seminars? And how does it work?
Speaker 3 (07:44):
Well? I get it a lot of times. I say
if I go places like Alaska, I went over there
and I stayed about seven days, and I hit multiple
schools here in the States. I may go to churches
and do some youth grow I do a lot of
basketball camps and the something I've also done. Uh, it's
funny because I was banned from the NBA. But a
lot of times the NBA pays me to come back
(08:06):
and tweak to the kids about what to do on
what not to do, you know what I'm saying. So
a lot of the guys, uh, you know recently coming
to the NBA know who Chris Washburnt is with. They
might not know who Ano another person in the in
the eighty six draft is because they're not relevant at
this time. So the NBA still keeps me kind of
relevant even with the younger guys, you know. So so
(08:28):
again I said, I had that fall early on, you
know what I'm saying, and so this gives me a
chance to still be involved, but also kind of He'll
hope that these kids don't get those same pitfalls as
I went through.
Speaker 4 (08:42):
I'll move on after this. Are you able to make
a living off of yours? This is your full time work? Now,
this is your p It.
Speaker 3 (08:48):
Is full time work. I do make, I do make.
This is my full time there. But right now I'm
calling you. I'm talking to you for my truck because
I'm on set right now shooting a movie called The
Mutt with their Costrata and some other people in it.
So I'm I'm I'm sitting in the truck having to
do this during my lunchtime. He had just uh that
(09:09):
while we're on set. So again, I try to stay busy.
Uh uh. It's funny because I feel like I make
more money. I've made more money outside of basketball than
the time I did while I was in basketball because
my time was so short. So again, so I'm thinking
it's tan off at the end.
Speaker 4 (09:28):
Part excellent, Well, good luck with that. Are you are you?
Are you playing an acting.
Speaker 3 (09:33):
Role or I am an actor in the role of
the Mutt is an actual Italian mafia movie. Uh, the Mutt,
this guy named Joey. I played Chris, my actual self
in the movie. I'm Joey's best friend, and so I
have a lot of roles in this movie. But to day,
at the first day of shooting, So right now I'm
(09:54):
sitting outside of the prison. We got with us some
scenes inside the prison we have to shoot, So right
now outside the pridgon and get ready to start back
up again. Don't get like they thought again, so I'll
try to stay busy.
Speaker 4 (10:08):
Yeah, it's success like fun Good luck with that. Let's
talk about the main reason where we're talking today, as
I write in the book you you told me that
you met Lynn in nineteen eighty four when you went
to College Park to play Maryland. Can you tell me?
And you got into a little bit of the specifics,
(10:29):
but if you can recall maybe more detail, how did
you did you walk up to him, did he walk
up to you? How did you meet Lenn And what
happened when you were did you guys hang out on
that trip.
Speaker 3 (10:40):
Yeah, we need to back it up a little bit.
I'd watched Lynn well most of the time when I played,
and coaches or people came to us, he had a
certain player and I would hear about it. This was
my fuge to make sure that at the end of
that game you were talking about me, you know. And
so I watched Lynn. Maryland had played Carolina and Lyn
(11:01):
had a back to back it hit a jump shot,
came me and throw the ball or dunk back with
the one Mark Okay, I got and I saw that
that clip and I was, I was this got here
and it was like I could never do I could
I always do more than Brad daughter would hear my name,
you know what I'm saying, And a lot of the
other guys I could still hear my name over. I
(11:22):
can never hear my name over this Lynn biased guy.
It was the eighty five eighty sixth season, I mean
eighty five eighty six season. I got to see Lynn,
and like I said, I'd been hearing about Lynn during
the season. I hadn't seen them really that much because
we were both playing at that time. But I knew
we were going to Maryland and I just had to see,
you know, how tall and Land was, how it was built,
(11:44):
all this kind of stuff, because that would give me
my satisfaction. Once a guy out the court kind of
bring my nerves down on guys. Sometimes I would see
guys need to be talling what what media had said.
They are are shorter, so I had to see him.
So once I saw him, you know what I'm saying.
And again what Once we got on campus, we had
a shoot around coach that we were here, hang out
(12:06):
for a little while and go back to the hotel.
Me and Nate went off to the where the classes were,
and I was asking FoST where's Lynn at? Where is Lynn?
And they actually directed me to the building in the
class where he was at, and I guess the belly
run when we went through and he was walking down
the hall and I saw him and we talked right
then for just a few minutes, and I just just
(12:28):
had to see the physical him, and that's the first
time i'd seen him, and you know, and I spent
a little more at ease because I was a little
taller than them, so I thought that was gonna hold
some weight when we played, you know. But again we
under spoke for a second. We said what I seen
the night of the game, and uh, we lost that night.
You know, he had a decent game. And then I
(12:48):
finally saw why they were talking about Lynn Bias so much,
you know. And and like I said, now you have
to understand that was during mid season. Then lend them
came to Raleigh play us at our home court, and
after that I think they left right out. But it
wasn't until after season that when in North Carolina has
(13:11):
a thing called bomb storming.
Speaker 4 (13:13):
Christ If we could back up for a little bit,
so when you were when they came down to play
against you in eighty six in Raleigh. I remember after
that game, Len got suspended because he broke curfew. He
went to a party with Keith Gatlin and John Johnson
called her. They said they went with some some NC
State players and called a freak mama contest. Okay, you
(13:37):
remember if you were at that party.
Speaker 3 (13:39):
Now, it wasn't it wasn't with me. Okay, it wasn't
with me because at that time I said, I never
hung out with Leon or anything until the bomb.
Speaker 4 (13:49):
Star Okay, all right, yeah, so go ahead, did the Barnes. Okay,
the barn storming.
Speaker 3 (13:54):
At that time, I wasn't going, bro I was, you know,
bomb stormer for senior people that had already declared they
would go to the NBA. And at that time I
had declare I was going. And so you know, I
didn't even go to the game in North Carolina. But
about about about twelve one o'clock in the morning, I
get knocked at my door and it's the little guy
(14:16):
that used to run around with the Renzo Charles. But
he was also good with Valvano and all the coaches,
and yeah, he would do little things for them, so
make sure the players that get get the practice on time,
or make sure that we could make a doctor's appointment
something like that. So he was real good with the
coaching staff. So he knock on the door. I looked out. Now,
and I saw him and it was no problem me
(14:40):
over the door. When I opened the door, Linn popped
around the corner and I was, you know, and I
was surprised. You know, Lynn in town, you know, and uh,
you know, now I'm like the I'm like the groupie now,
you know. Yeah, theyn't come on in, you know, sit down,
let's talk, and all that kind of stuff. But they
were doing some other things, which I told you before.
I'm actually trying to get my book and stuff going.
(15:02):
I can't give you all those in room details, but
understanding that when he left that night, when they actually
left that night, well not even that night, that morning,
because I had to get them out of my bathroom
so I could go in take a shower, so I
had I had a seven fifty class that morning, and uh,
let's just say I never made it to that class.
Speaker 4 (15:23):
Well, Christ if I could interject, you told me for
the book that that's that he introduced you to cocaine
that night.
Speaker 3 (15:29):
You just told me. That's correct, that's correct, that's correct, right, okay, right,
And that's what and that's that. That's at that point
where I said I never went went back to class.
And to the point that coach reading them called me
to the office and told me that I was going
to be ineligible the next season. So I've already been
suspended my freshman year, I played my sophomore year. Now
(15:53):
you telling me I'm probably be in eligible my junior year.
And so at that point I had I knew a
couple oft eighties, So I called one and he told
me he would put his ear out there to see
if what he could hear. As for as well, my
name fell in the draft, and uh, first time they
called Chris.
Speaker 4 (16:12):
Can we back up a second and go back to
that night, please and tell me what more you remember
about that was it? Were you surprised when when Lenn
pulled out the covers wherever pull out the cocaine?
Speaker 3 (16:21):
Well, well I wasn't surprised because again I didn't see
who pulled it out. It wasn't in a power form.
It was already in a glass jar to say, and
they were needing the other I was one of the
only me and maybe two other players had telephones. The
other two guys were, as we said, back their nerves.
(16:42):
You know, I was a cool guy, So you could
come to my room in any time and use my phone,
So they came to my room to use the phone.
Like I said, they went off into the bathroom and
use my phone and stuff. And I went back to sleep,
but I had to get up for my seven fifty class.
They were still in the bathroom. So there has been
in four or five hours. And so when I came out,
(17:04):
I told him, ID, that's which places. When I came out,
I guess the person that they were waiting on came
and help them do what they were doing. I came
back out, and you know, someone asked you to try
something of of of a status. You know that I
put them on. You know, I don't want them to
think I'm not cool, you know what I'm saying. So
(17:25):
you offered me something I tried. You know. Now again
just like back in the day when when somebody offered
me marijuana, I tried it. Never got hooked on it,
but I tried it, you know what I'm saying. So
I tried this as well. But it was just something
totally different about this here.
Speaker 4 (17:42):
Were you surprised? Are you surprised that one was doing that?
Speaker 3 (17:46):
I was. I was surprised yet because again I'd never
done it. You know, I've always sayed, natural. I tried,
you know, when I tried it that first time, Just
to be honest with you, you know, I enjoyed it up
until I finally quit fourteen years later. You know, it
just gave me a different uh different a different body field.
(18:11):
You know. I've seen the other players on other teams,
uh snort cocaine before the games, you know. And so
my thing was, I played a lot of times again
guys that was already jacked up on something, not knowing it.
You know what I'm saying, I'm out there playing natural.
But when I tried that, you know, it made a
(18:32):
big change in my life. And like I said, I
never went back to class. I ended up leaving State.
I left a car there, I left, closed everything. I
never went back for almost until after the draft. And
why did you leave? So why did you leave so quickly?
But I left because coaches let me know that I
(18:54):
was gonna be ineligible uh the following season. I hadn't know.
I hadn't been in any class when they left that morning.
I never left and went to class after that, you know,
I stayed in the room. And then because once that
high war all and it was such a new drug,
(19:15):
I found myself riding around Raleigh, you know, wanting to
find it, but scared to ask people for it because
everybody knew who I was.
Speaker 4 (19:24):
That that affected you that quickly, you wanted more that quickly.
Speaker 3 (19:27):
Just I was hook the day one first hit. I
was hooked. I never wanted to do classes or anything
like that. So I said, when I actually went to
the NBA, I was already damaged to it. That's why
I just like I say when I tell the kids,
when I talked to the kids about foss actually consequently
being prepared when you get there, I was. I was unprepassed.
(19:50):
I was already a crackhead going to the NBA. It
was just at that point in time, I was a
millionaire crackhead going into the NBA, and I I was
new to the drugs through it. I wasn't addicted to it. Shit.
I wanted to do it, you know what I'm saying,
so I could put it down and go to practice
or go to games. But as the addiction progressed, I
(20:11):
started missing practices. I started coming late the games, you know,
to the point where the NBA started taking notice and
tipped off to my first rehab.
Speaker 4 (20:22):
And then if I recall you had several other stints
in rehab as well.
Speaker 3 (20:25):
Right, Oh, I mean I went to rehab two two times,
maybe three times in the NBA. One I went three
times while I was in the NBA. When I left, uh,
the rehab without the NBA's permission, That's when I found
out that night on ESPN's I had been banned from
(20:47):
the league. And so I mean, and again I'm just
sitting there watching it. I'm not even getting high. I'm
watching TV. I just left the rehab center because I
was I wasn't doing drugs before I went, and I
was just hanging around the same area. And the you know, dad,
they said, I'm hanging around in the same areas, how
much be doing something? So they put me back off
(21:08):
in the rehab. So me when my my smart intelligence
back then I left and they called me and they
gave me they gave me an hour to get back.
And you know, Chris always liked to walk the edge sometimes,
and uh, you know, and and after that time went over,
they didn't call me back or anything. Like I said.
I saw ESPN to Chris Washburn's band from the NBA.
(21:32):
And first thing, this is the junkie side of me
was this was the first thing I thought about, was cool,
No more practice, you know, not thinking that, no more income,
you know. So and even the fven though it was
said to me over the the TV, I stilled with
the practice the next day, and to my knowledge, at
(21:55):
that time, I was actually escorted or work in the
arena because I wasn't a player no more. So now
I'm seeing the guys going in, going down the hill,
going into the Omni. I'm standing at the top of
the hill, awaven to try to flag him down because
I don't have any money and I want to get high,
you know. And you know, I knew where we used
to go after practice to go eat lunch and all that,
(22:17):
and as a team, a few of us will get
together to go. And so I started stalking those places
out and then the guy started seeing me hanging in
those places anywhere, started going to the different places I
didn't know about, you know, And then so against I
had to learn that.
Speaker 2 (22:34):
Quick.
Speaker 4 (22:34):
And hey, Chris, when Lynn died, did that impact your
cocaine you so all? Did you think, oh my goodness,
it killed him and could kill me.
Speaker 3 (22:46):
I did, because I said we'd just gotten drafted that Tuesday,
and I spoke to him briefly after the draft and
told him I was coming through d C that Friday
because I was gonna go back down the state. Did
everybody see my new car? And then gone back to Heckory,
my little hometown so my friends and family could see me.
(23:09):
You know what I'm saying, that the new NBA guy.
But and so we said, yeah, you know, we're gonna
meet up. I said, I'll call you when I get
in the Maryland such and such. I had his number
at that time. And then, like I said, I was down.
I was downtown in Manhattan doing uh, some kind of
photo shoot and got asked me out here about Land
(23:30):
and I say, now what about you know what I mean?
You know he had died, and I didn't believe that time.
The guy went and got a New York coach. He'll
remember on the back of the post it showed me
laying it passed. Now again, I was actively getting high
at that point in time, so it did shape me.
You know what I'm saying. I did stop for uh,
(23:52):
you know, for a period of time. This was still
before preseason even started, so I stopped. I went all
the way through preseason without doing drugs. Right at the
end of pre season, me and coach Carl had gotten
into it, and that just gave me an outlet to, well,
let me go find me some cocaine. You know, I
(24:13):
know how to get rid of this problem right here,
let me go get high and so again, and that
just started it back up before a period of time
to answer you. Unfortunately, I did have a a reagion of, uh,
of not stopping, maybe slowing down, maybe not doing it
like he did because over over the times, uh, you know,
(24:34):
because I'm probably in a different circle than a lot
of folks. Looking looking in on, I found out that
he was drinking it as well as snorting and smoking.
And see, when you do the cocaine cocktails, it freezes
your whole body, so you can't tell when your heart
is real fast, you know. And see, there are certain
ways you can do to do cocaine. And my main
(24:55):
thing was, I said I was never I started snorting
in the beginning after I was introduced to it by
smoke weight, and I saw the snorting, uh, you know,
messing my nose up too much. What people would do
can identify what I was doing. Smoking, I thought was
a closet type thing. And and and that's what I
(25:15):
chose to do. I never shot it up or did
anything other than smoke.
Speaker 4 (25:19):
So so how would they drink it? What would they
put what liquid would they put it in?
Speaker 3 (25:23):
They can put it in any kind of drink. I mean,
it's just a clear power. And now you do it,
once you drink it is just it just freeze your inside,
just numbs the old inside. But when you do that,
you can't feel your your heartbeat. You know what I'm saying.
You can't. You can't tell when you've had enough to say.
Speaker 4 (25:39):
And so like what was in your understanding that that's
how Lene consumed it? He would drink it.
Speaker 3 (25:44):
No, that's how I consume it. That that that one
time is what I heard. And he tried to goain't
cocktails because now he has the money to do these
kinds of things. See before, you don't have that kind
of money to just blursion. Uh drug cocaine wasn't back.
Speaker 4 (26:00):
Then now now also did you, uh do you recall
a few and Len used cocaine together after that first time.
Speaker 3 (26:07):
No, never never got a chance to do again after that,
after the bomb storming when they came back. But I
had plans on using that weekend.
Speaker 4 (26:19):
Yeah, okay, what I have now. I don't know if
it was you or someone else told me they thought
he was using cocaine during the draft up in New York.
Speaker 3 (26:28):
It wasn't me to say that, but I wouldn't. I mean,
I was using right before the draft I got in.
Uh well, we were. We actually walked in, both of
us walked in after the hit Tall Brad daughter's name,
you know. And so that was just just that quick
because by the time we sat down there and called him,
and you know, by the time the switch started rolling
(26:49):
off my forehead, they called me, you know, And but yeah,
I just saw each other passing the hallway and that
was it all right.
Speaker 4 (26:57):
Now, uh Len's legacy, as you probably realized, it's pretty diverse.
I mean, it saved people's lives. People say they never
used drugs because he died through using cocaine. It affected
a lot of lives. It altered lives. It altered your
life by having him introduced it to you. How would
you what would you or how would you summarize lens legacy?
(27:20):
Not just the basketball We all know him as a
basketball player, but other than that, what do you think
was the biggest impact of his death.
Speaker 3 (27:29):
It brought away I think to uh to the drug
scene more so especially in the eighties where the NBA
was just finally getting over the air on era in
the seventies. You know, it just brought a light to
show that, you know, Year the five specimen, a great
(27:52):
athlete and it could kill him, you know. Uh. And
here if you look at that whole first round draft,
my yeah, uh Lan guy Lynn Tarfe Bedford. A lot
of us was dabbling back then with it. But I wouldn't.
(28:12):
I wouldn't look at it. I wouldn't harm Land's legacy
with it because again it was a trial and arab here.
You know, when we were all young trying something different.
We all thought we were superman back then, so we
would try things that we didn't think would hurt us
or you know, or we would give things to each
other that we didn't think would hurt the other person.
(28:35):
That that this is a drug that can actually keep
even uh guys in great shape.
Speaker 4 (28:42):
How has as you look back on, as you would, well,
you went to jail for a little bit.
Speaker 3 (28:46):
Correct, I went to prison for three years.
Speaker 4 (28:49):
In prison for three years. As you look back on
your ordeal with drugs and serving prison time. Do you
think this would have happened to you if you hadn't
if you hadn't used cocaine that first time?
Speaker 3 (29:06):
Was like, I don't, I don't know. I think I
would have passed. You know, I missed a lot of
things that I went through just from that one night,
because again I didn't The only other person I was
hanging with at State was Nate McMillan, and they didn't
do any any kind of drugs. You know, we were
beer drinkers, you know, I was. I was a little
(29:27):
weed smoker back then, but Nate was a beer drinking
and that's as far as That's as far as my
range went. And being in North Carolina, the little country
city there of Raleigh, cocaine wasn't big, you know. Now again,
would I may have tried it later on, because again
I didified myself in the rooms, even in the NBA,
(29:50):
with other high profile guys that were doing things. And
again I feel part too, because I didn't want them
to feel a dope, and I was going to be
the one to ra I'm out of say anything. So
who's to say that, you know, a year or two later,
five years later on down the road that I would
have walked in the room and you know, one of
the all Star guys lay up, been there and offered
(30:11):
me something. I was just taking it.
Speaker 4 (30:13):
You know, well, let me let me work this a
different way. Do you blame Len for your situation?
Speaker 3 (30:18):
Oh? No, I can't blame them, because again, I was abroad.
I was still nineteen years old when I took it
as a new right wrong. My thing was, I was
just unafraid of anything. You know, I blame myself more
so because I was unafraid of saying no, feeling like
(30:39):
guys are gonna look at me different.
Speaker 4 (30:41):
Do you use Lens Do you use Len's story at
all in your presentations when you talk to people?
Speaker 3 (30:48):
No? No, I mean no, no more than that. Yeah,
look at it like this. A person, an enemy couldn't
give you anything because they couldn't get close enough to you.
You always get things good or bad from the closest
people from you, I mean around your friends. And so again,
(31:08):
if I didn't know Lynn, lincoldn't have got to me
Lincoln and gave me. But because we were in the
same profession, you know, I wanted to be more more
like him more so on and off the court. I
guess that I was willing to take a chance and
and and entering his world and where I should have
(31:29):
stayed into mind and then well we could still court
exist on the court. I didn't have to jump off
to his lane, you know, uh, just to be a
part of and and And that's the only thing I
blame myself off. Now.
Speaker 4 (31:42):
I imagine your your story is so strong in itself,
you don't really need to refer to what happened to
lend to teach people. You know, this is what you
shouldn't do. So as you look at back, look back
at everything that you've been through, Chris, with drugs and
and and serving prison time, and how you have you
you have recovered? What is the biggest takeaway for you?
(32:05):
What's the most important thing that that you you think
back on and say, hey, you know this happened for
this reason, or this happened for that reason, or anything
to that effect.
Speaker 3 (32:14):
Well, I mean when Land came to my room that night,
it was for a reason, you know, and never knowing
the reason was stretch out over forty years almost because
I sit back and look at it, that Land would
have probably never came to my room that night. That's
that I was never introduced to drugs. Let's just say that, Uh,
(32:36):
you know, I went off and had a great career.
I may or not have met the ladies that I have,
so I may and I have the kids that I have.
Now you know, I may, and now I have met
U Man. And I went to the gym that night
because I was doing something else. I wouldn't have met
my wife that night, you know. And so again a
(32:57):
lot of these things I could be mad about, but
and reverse, a lot of these things that happening good
for me now came from that. You know. See, let's
just understanding that if I'd had one hundred million, one
hundred and fifty men like they started giving athletes back then,
how to probably put my mom off into a home
(33:19):
when I found out she had all times, instead of
you know, shutting my house down in Texas and moving back,
taking on the responsibility for teen years and helping her.
You know what I'm saying, Because if I had one
hundred and fifty million something like that, how to pay
somebody else to do that, so I wouldn't had these
last ten years with her sport. She just passed last
US last May at ninety years old. So again I
(33:43):
got a lot of good out of the wrong. I
guess the worst part is I never got to really
fulfill my basketball part where I could actually really seen well,
you know, where I could have been, because on each
level I played, I've always excelled and to All Star
or you know, uh, one of the best, and so
(34:05):
you'll actually get to the NBA where you know, all
of this stuff to be in stone. Now I kind
of gave it away freedom, you know, and and and
those are the only things that I'm mad about, you know.
Speaker 4 (34:16):
Could you could you go as far as saying you're
glad it happened that Lennon introduced you to cocaine? Would
you know that far?
Speaker 3 (34:21):
I've no none. I wouldn't say that because again I
never know what I could have actually been without the
use of it. But again I'm not mad at him
because he did, because again it opened up different doors
that I may not have opened. You know, if it
didn't introduce that to me, you know, I may have
(34:44):
been on a different street doing something else and not
have met the people that I've met over the course
of the years because of what you know, what I
got from him that at that time. But uh no,
I'm not. I don't get upset about it because you
know I did that at nineteen. If I'm still mad
about something nineteen, uh and and may I'll be fifty
(35:07):
five years old, you know I'd be crazy. You know,
life is too short. I sit back now, I believe
it or not, and look at all the guys that
stayed in shape but did all the correct things, and
that are dead now. You know that, the athletes, You know,
I can still better bay about my friends, Anthony Mason
(35:29):
shackle Put, when the war Ridge, you know, all these
Bobby Field, all these guys did it correctly, and but
but Butter not here at this time. I'm still here
and I did it wrong with wrong, with wrong than anyone.
So I must have a story to tell that someone.
I hadn't met that right person yet, you know what
(35:50):
I'm saying, because I'm still here. But there's the reason.
While I'm still here, And like I said again, you know,
cocaine opened up a lot of doors for me that
it should have also opened up a lot of doors
that it shouldn't know. It's just now that I know
how to do around those doors that opened up. You
know that I shouldn't be going to and I didn't
(36:11):
when I was younger.
Speaker 4 (36:12):
Okay, I have you been following the movement to try
to change sentence sentencing maximums for drug possessions and all
the social change happening there. Are you aware of that?
Speaker 3 (36:28):
I am? I am.
Speaker 4 (36:29):
What are your thoughts on that? Do you think it's
heading in the right direction? Now we're drug crime drug
drug sentencing should be reduced based on the crime. Do
you have What are your thoughts on that?
Speaker 3 (36:42):
I would think that and and again this is just
Chris being an athlete. Especially the cases that are involved
in marijuana. The marijuana thing, I don't see it being
bad because I know a lot of guys that would
rather smoke marijuans that take all the percase said, uh,
(37:05):
hydro codones that the doctors prescribe us. They would rather
smoke marijuana where it's more relaxing for them. Now I
can see them throwing those kind of cases out. The cocaine, again,
those are harsher drugs. And now these days, because when
I talk to the kids, they're not just using cocaine,
(37:28):
they're using scent and all they're using uh myths and
all these different things to to add into it. So
my question is, back when I was in the eighties,
and I asked a lot of kids the back when
I was in the eighties, Uh, there were three main
addictions out there, heroin, cocaine, alcohol, and now those same
addictions out there, but now we also have myth Uh,
(37:52):
you have a flocker, you have wax sir, all these
different drugs, and I'll be asking the kids, how high
do y'all want to get it? Because a lot of
time you're adding all the drugs on top of drugs
they get you. You can only get so high, and
then once you get that high, what is the plan
after you get high? You know? And and and so
(38:13):
that's why I said thoughts actually consequences, because if you
if your time just sitting around planning on getting high,
you're not playing on the future. And I'm the first
one to say that after basketball left me, it took
me a long time before I found me your niche
as far as what I wanted to do, and that
(38:35):
didn't last on because I was looking at that chick,
compare it to an NBA chick, and it just didn't
add up, you know. So that you kind of missed
doing regular. That's why I had to start opening up
things and working for myself. But you know, but but no,
like I said, the drugs, uh, the marijuana part. And
(38:56):
then I can see, you know, letting them everybody out
that because it's now starting to be legal everywhere.
Speaker 4 (39:03):
But you do, you have a position on reducing crimes
for cocaine possession and distribution as it's trying to be
implemented all that, the Social Justice reformed, the sentencing reform laws.
Speaker 3 (39:17):
But I look at the cocaine just like they're looking
at the myth. Now. Back then they back then cocaine
and we were added, you know. Now the myth is
more if they need help. You know, I look at
and actually been an addict. Yeah, you can't live life
on life terms. You need something to cope with you
(39:39):
an addict. But cocaine wise, you know, I think everyone
needs him. I think everyone needs the first, second, third, fourth,
fifth chance, you know, because look at me. I went
to rehab fourteen times. You know, I went fourteen times.
And when I finally got it and I didn't go
to rehab, I just came to a point where I
(39:59):
was tired of doing it. You know, you can't make
a person even now, even when I was in prison,
because I wouldn't actually trying to stop getting huh. I
was smoking, cracking prison, So it's in there as well,
you know, So it only comes out to the person
wanting to actually stop. I tell a lot of the kids,
you can't do nothing for mom and daddy, baby, sister, brother,
(40:22):
none of that kind of stuff. Until you're ready to stop,
You're gonna keep doing it. Because I said, I waste
a lot of people's money in time fourteen times, you know,
until I was ready to stop myself, you know. And
when I was ready to stop myself, believe or not,
I never picked it back up. June June of two
thousand and ten, sorry, June of two thousand and one
(40:47):
is when I stopped. So I'm going on twenty years
this June, and again, is it hard, Yes, because I'm
just one one year away from being back to where
I was at before. But the best thing I do
know about this is that I know the knowledge of
it now. I know if I take a hit, that
(41:09):
I'm a liable to give all my jewelry away, upon
my cars and different things better than in the beginning
where you know, you knew I knew anyone. I didn't
know anyone had done cracked or real cocaine, you know
when I first started. So I had to kind of,
you know, feel my way through you know, alcohol because
(41:29):
my dad was a big drinker, I knew I never
wanted to drink a lot of alcohol. To this day,
I don't drink, you know, so so things presented to
me I kind of watched and filtered out, you know,
to do it in the bad. That was just something
brock to me that I didn't know anything about. Chris.
Speaker 4 (41:47):
Thank you so much for all your insights and your reflections.
Speaker 1 (41:52):
Thank you, Len Bias A Mixed Legacy. The interviews was
produced by Daveon Grady and Don Marcus any becaust Lend.
Bias A Mixed Legacy is distributed by The Eights.
Speaker 4 (42:06):
I never I hope they do the
Uh get it all quick, and he was so Chris.
Speaker 2 (00:10):
You you may recall, Uh we had a couple of
recent conversations and I asked you how first you had
your barbecue place still going, that little restaurant.
Speaker 3 (00:21):
No, No, I closed it down a few years ago
because I uh got a certification as a peer support
specialist in North Carolina, which just mean that a prayer,
a person has gone through some things and got over it.
Uh now a live to go back and help some
other folks do the same thing. So once I got
(00:41):
that certification, I couldn't spend as much time at the
restaurant as I needed to be there. So the rest
things for me to do was just shut them down.
Speaker 4 (00:50):
So that leads me to my next question. I remember
reading that you were going to do something to help
I think it was youth or someone who was in
recovery or something. Can you plain what how that's work,
what's happening there, and how that's working?
Speaker 3 (01:03):
Well? What I s thought it was a program called Thoughts,
Action Consequences. And again it's not just for athletes, it's
for the student Uh. Actually the student body going to
different churches in the Speed, different youth groups in Speed uh.
And then again, it's just preparing the kids to be
ready for whenever they get to to where they're trying
to go in life, that they're if they're ready to
(01:25):
be there, you know. Unfortunately, say, when I got to
the NBA, I was prepared physically, but I wasn't prepared mentally,
you know. And and that comes for not surrounding myself
with people that were trying to do the same things.
So I try to get the kids to understand that
in order to get to it the next level, you
need to surround yourself which people are trying to do
(01:46):
the same things that you're trying to do.
Speaker 4 (01:49):
Can you say the name of the program again, slowly?
Speaker 3 (01:52):
It's called thoughts, Action consequences.
Speaker 4 (01:56):
Thoughts, Actions consequences. Great, Okay, they see is this something
that you started?
Speaker 3 (02:02):
I did? Yes, I did?
Speaker 4 (02:04):
And how many years has it been around?
Speaker 3 (02:08):
I'm looking at not ten years?
Speaker 4 (02:10):
Wow?
Speaker 3 (02:11):
One on eleven?
Speaker 4 (02:13):
And what's the Can you be a little more specific
on what you're focusing on with that? Obviously the name
says a lot, but can you give me examples how
you try to mentor these as well as the primarily
youth or adults as well?
Speaker 3 (02:27):
Can I say, anyone that's trying to get to the
next level in life, but trying to get into a
different position. I think this program here, this program can
help because again it doesn't just specify as athletes trying
to get to either college or to the pros. This
is just a general thing for UH in life. Like
I said, the versus just wants to be the top
(02:48):
UH manager or supervisor for McDonald's, or the next person
wants to be the next CEO at the company. If
you're not prepared when that opportunity or that or opens
for you, then once you get in there, you won't
stay lost. And a lot of times I go back
to myself because, like I said, I was prepared for
the NBA UH physically, I wasn't prepared mentally. And then
(03:10):
also my surrounding circle was so big that anybody could
get to me. So the main thing was that once,
once an opportunity presents hisself, you have to be ready
because that door may shut quicker than it opened up
for you.
Speaker 4 (03:29):
Okay, well, let's that's impressive. And I'm going to get
to when you were at NC State and when you
met Land and what happened in your friendship with him,
But can you give me an example or two of
some things that you're teaching these people. What are some
of the themes or what are some of the uh,
some of the briefer or two or three strong, strong
(03:50):
lessons or messages.
Speaker 3 (03:52):
What the maining lesson is is that although I was
sixty eleven at a young age, I was still a
follow and and and the guy as I was falling
were not guys that were trying to get to a
next level of sports or trying to do more positive things.
Although I was, I was a big kid, I was
I hung with older guys. You know, I was sixt
(04:14):
eleven when I was six seven in the seventh grade,
so that already put me in a different class so
people I could hang with because I could be in
the streets playing with guys my own age. But then
people would be like, why is this grown land playing
with these kids, not knowing that I'm a kid as well.
So I never really had a childhood. So when I
(04:35):
got with these older guys, I would kind of act
out and do things, and they were kind of laugh
and kind of you know, you know, smirk it off
because I was young, instead of kind of correcting what
I was doing because that that never changed as I
got older. You know, I kept still trying to if
I didn't understand that, I'm trying to be the funny one,
(04:56):
you know, in the group instead of, like I said, understanding.
So I want these kids to understand that it's all
right not to understand everything. You know what I'm saying,
It's only wrong when you don't ask questions, because when
the course is present to you and you can't answer it,
then people look at you like, you know, why are
you here? And then also I want the kids to
(05:18):
understand that all friends are not meant to go where
you go. You know, my thing was I wanted to
open the door for everybody to come in with me.
But but but everybody you know can't go, which is
the saying that I say out now, everybody I know
can't go where I go because we don't have the
same intention. And then also another thing is if you
(05:39):
get the chance to be an athlete or someone one
there changes their money status, that everybody jumps on your
wagon is not helping you go to the same goal.
So I'm just on the wagon to ride. You know,
someone ed see what you drop or they can pick
up what you might not miss, you know. And I
say that because I had agents back then that was
(06:01):
writing themselves checks and I lost seven hundred and fifty thousand,
and I never knew about it because I wasn't handling
my own finance. And then and then another big thing
is I want the kids to understand. So that's when
I talked to the college athletes, we need to take
a finance course, because again, once we get off to
this deal of money, don't want somebody just hading your
(06:23):
money and you know nothing about it like I did,
you know. And it's another fast funny coming from a
guy that only had a four four seventy esaight sport.
And again that's only because I never took the SAT.
At that time, the scores didn't matter, so I just
went in and I bubbled everything and went to sleep
for the three hours and left. And when the scores
came back, although the state gives you four hundred, I
(06:45):
only made seventy points on my on my own, so
it's like, you know, I may only got maybe two
questions right on the whole SAT. So then it goes
into how did this kid get into a Division I school?
You know what I'm saying he must be semi re target,
not understanding that I never took the actual test because
at that time, coach, we said, you've already tied your
(07:07):
sins the formality just going and take the test, and
you know, and and and that's it. Not knowing like
they said, I would go and bubble everything and go
to see the next thing. I know there was national
news and it This is even before the internet, you know.
So again I want the kids to understand that anything
in life, you know, you have to sit down and
especially for yourself, understand the things that's coming to you.
(07:30):
Understand your finance, Understand where money goes. Understanding that you
can't help everybody you know, and and and and just
shut the lit.
Speaker 4 (07:39):
Now are you Are you doing this primarily through speaking?
Are you doing seminars? And how does it work?
Speaker 3 (07:44):
Well? I get it a lot of times. I say
if I go places like Alaska, I went over there
and I stayed about seven days, and I hit multiple
schools here in the States. I may go to churches
and do some youth grow I do a lot of
basketball camps and the something I've also done. Uh, it's
funny because I was banned from the NBA. But a
lot of times the NBA pays me to come back
(08:06):
and tweak to the kids about what to do on
what not to do, you know what I'm saying. So
a lot of the guys, uh, you know recently coming
to the NBA know who Chris Washburnt is with. They
might not know who Ano another person in the in
the eighty six draft is because they're not relevant at
this time. So the NBA still keeps me kind of
relevant even with the younger guys, you know. So so
(08:28):
again I said, I had that fall early on, you
know what I'm saying, and so this gives me a
chance to still be involved, but also kind of He'll
hope that these kids don't get those same pitfalls as
I went through.
Speaker 4 (08:42):
I'll move on after this. Are you able to make
a living off of yours? This is your full time work? Now,
this is your p It.
Speaker 3 (08:48):
Is full time work. I do make, I do make.
This is my full time there. But right now I'm
calling you. I'm talking to you for my truck because
I'm on set right now shooting a movie called The
Mutt with their Costrata and some other people in it.
So I'm I'm I'm sitting in the truck having to
do this during my lunchtime. He had just uh that
(09:09):
while we're on set. So again, I try to stay busy.
Uh uh. It's funny because I feel like I make
more money. I've made more money outside of basketball than
the time I did while I was in basketball because
my time was so short. So again, so I'm thinking
it's tan off at the end.
Speaker 4 (09:28):
Part excellent, Well, good luck with that. Are you are you?
Are you playing an acting.
Speaker 3 (09:33):
Role or I am an actor in the role of
the Mutt is an actual Italian mafia movie. Uh, the Mutt,
this guy named Joey. I played Chris, my actual self
in the movie. I'm Joey's best friend, and so I
have a lot of roles in this movie. But to day,
at the first day of shooting, So right now I'm
(09:54):
sitting outside of the prison. We got with us some
scenes inside the prison we have to shoot, So right
now outside the pridgon and get ready to start back
up again. Don't get like they thought again, so I'll
try to stay busy.
Speaker 4 (10:08):
Yeah, it's success like fun Good luck with that. Let's
talk about the main reason where we're talking today, as
I write in the book you you told me that
you met Lynn in nineteen eighty four when you went
to College Park to play Maryland. Can you tell me?
And you got into a little bit of the specifics,
(10:29):
but if you can recall maybe more detail, how did
you did you walk up to him, did he walk
up to you? How did you meet Lenn And what
happened when you were did you guys hang out on
that trip.
Speaker 3 (10:40):
Yeah, we need to back it up a little bit.
I'd watched Lynn well most of the time when I played,
and coaches or people came to us, he had a
certain player and I would hear about it. This was
my fuge to make sure that at the end of
that game you were talking about me, you know. And
so I watched Lynn. Maryland had played Carolina and Lyn
(11:01):
had a back to back it hit a jump shot,
came me and throw the ball or dunk back with
the one Mark Okay, I got and I saw that
that clip and I was, I was this got here
and it was like I could never do I could
I always do more than Brad daughter would hear my name,
you know what I'm saying, And a lot of the
other guys I could still hear my name over. I
(11:22):
can never hear my name over this Lynn biased guy.
It was the eighty five eighty sixth season, I mean
eighty five eighty six season. I got to see Lynn,
and like I said, I'd been hearing about Lynn during
the season. I hadn't seen them really that much because
we were both playing at that time. But I knew
we were going to Maryland and I just had to see,
you know, how tall and Land was, how it was built,
(11:44):
all this kind of stuff, because that would give me
my satisfaction. Once a guy out the court kind of
bring my nerves down on guys. Sometimes I would see
guys need to be talling what what media had said.
They are are shorter, so I had to see him.
So once I saw him, you know what I'm saying.
And again what Once we got on campus, we had
a shoot around coach that we were here, hang out
(12:06):
for a little while and go back to the hotel.
Me and Nate went off to the where the classes were,
and I was asking FoST where's Lynn at? Where is Lynn?
And they actually directed me to the building in the
class where he was at, and I guess the belly
run when we went through and he was walking down
the hall and I saw him and we talked right
then for just a few minutes, and I just just
(12:28):
had to see the physical him, and that's the first
time i'd seen him, and you know, and I spent
a little more at ease because I was a little
taller than them, so I thought that was gonna hold
some weight when we played, you know. But again we
under spoke for a second. We said what I seen
the night of the game, and uh, we lost that night.
You know, he had a decent game. And then I
(12:48):
finally saw why they were talking about Lynn Bias so much,
you know. And and like I said, now you have
to understand that was during mid season. Then lend them
came to Raleigh play us at our home court, and
after that I think they left right out. But it
wasn't until after season that when in North Carolina has
(13:11):
a thing called bomb storming.
Speaker 4 (13:13):
Christ If we could back up for a little bit,
so when you were when they came down to play
against you in eighty six in Raleigh. I remember after
that game, Len got suspended because he broke curfew. He
went to a party with Keith Gatlin and John Johnson
called her. They said they went with some some NC
State players and called a freak mama contest. Okay, you
(13:37):
remember if you were at that party.
Speaker 3 (13:39):
Now, it wasn't it wasn't with me. Okay, it wasn't
with me because at that time I said, I never
hung out with Leon or anything until the bomb.
Speaker 4 (13:49):
Star Okay, all right, yeah, so go ahead, did the Barnes. Okay,
the barn storming.
Speaker 3 (13:54):
At that time, I wasn't going, bro I was, you know,
bomb stormer for senior people that had already declared they
would go to the NBA. And at that time I
had declare I was going. And so you know, I
didn't even go to the game in North Carolina. But
about about about twelve one o'clock in the morning, I
get knocked at my door and it's the little guy
(14:16):
that used to run around with the Renzo Charles. But
he was also good with Valvano and all the coaches,
and yeah, he would do little things for them, so
make sure the players that get get the practice on time,
or make sure that we could make a doctor's appointment
something like that. So he was real good with the
coaching staff. So he knock on the door. I looked out. Now,
and I saw him and it was no problem me
(14:40):
over the door. When I opened the door, Linn popped
around the corner and I was, you know, and I
was surprised. You know, Lynn in town, you know, and uh,
you know, now I'm like the I'm like the groupie now,
you know. Yeah, theyn't come on in, you know, sit down,
let's talk, and all that kind of stuff. But they
were doing some other things, which I told you before.
I'm actually trying to get my book and stuff going.
(15:02):
I can't give you all those in room details, but
understanding that when he left that night, when they actually
left that night, well not even that night, that morning,
because I had to get them out of my bathroom
so I could go in take a shower, so I
had I had a seven fifty class that morning, and uh,
let's just say I never made it to that class.
Speaker 4 (15:23):
Well, Christ if I could interject, you told me for
the book that that's that he introduced you to cocaine
that night.
Speaker 3 (15:29):
You just told me. That's correct, that's correct, that's correct, right, okay, right,
And that's what and that's that. That's at that point
where I said I never went went back to class.
And to the point that coach reading them called me
to the office and told me that I was going
to be ineligible the next season. So I've already been
suspended my freshman year, I played my sophomore year. Now
(15:53):
you telling me I'm probably be in eligible my junior year.
And so at that point I had I knew a
couple oft eighties, So I called one and he told
me he would put his ear out there to see
if what he could hear. As for as well, my
name fell in the draft, and uh, first time they
called Chris.
Speaker 4 (16:12):
Can we back up a second and go back to
that night, please and tell me what more you remember
about that was it? Were you surprised when when Lenn
pulled out the covers wherever pull out the cocaine?
Speaker 3 (16:21):
Well, well I wasn't surprised because again I didn't see
who pulled it out. It wasn't in a power form.
It was already in a glass jar to say, and
they were needing the other I was one of the
only me and maybe two other players had telephones. The
other two guys were, as we said, back their nerves.
(16:42):
You know, I was a cool guy, So you could
come to my room in any time and use my phone,
So they came to my room to use the phone.
Like I said, they went off into the bathroom and
use my phone and stuff. And I went back to sleep,
but I had to get up for my seven fifty class.
They were still in the bathroom. So there has been
in four or five hours. And so when I came out,
(17:04):
I told him, ID, that's which places. When I came out,
I guess the person that they were waiting on came
and help them do what they were doing. I came
back out, and you know, someone asked you to try
something of of of a status. You know that I
put them on. You know, I don't want them to
think I'm not cool, you know what I'm saying. So
(17:25):
you offered me something I tried. You know. Now again
just like back in the day when when somebody offered
me marijuana, I tried it. Never got hooked on it,
but I tried it, you know what I'm saying. So
I tried this as well. But it was just something
totally different about this here.
Speaker 4 (17:42):
Were you surprised? Are you surprised that one was doing that?
Speaker 3 (17:46):
I was. I was surprised yet because again I'd never
done it. You know, I've always sayed, natural. I tried,
you know, when I tried it that first time, Just
to be honest with you, you know, I enjoyed it up
until I finally quit fourteen years later. You know, it
just gave me a different uh different a different body field.
(18:11):
You know. I've seen the other players on other teams,
uh snort cocaine before the games, you know. And so
my thing was, I played a lot of times again
guys that was already jacked up on something, not knowing it.
You know what I'm saying, I'm out there playing natural.
But when I tried that, you know, it made a
(18:32):
big change in my life. And like I said, I
never went back to class. I ended up leaving State.
I left a car there, I left, closed everything. I
never went back for almost until after the draft. And
why did you leave? So why did you leave so quickly?
But I left because coaches let me know that I
(18:54):
was gonna be ineligible uh the following season. I hadn't know.
I hadn't been in any class when they left that morning.
I never left and went to class after that, you know,
I stayed in the room. And then because once that
high war all and it was such a new drug,
(19:15):
I found myself riding around Raleigh, you know, wanting to
find it, but scared to ask people for it because
everybody knew who I was.
Speaker 4 (19:24):
That that affected you that quickly, you wanted more that quickly.
Speaker 3 (19:27):
Just I was hook the day one first hit. I
was hooked. I never wanted to do classes or anything
like that. So I said, when I actually went to
the NBA, I was already damaged to it. That's why
I just like I say when I tell the kids,
when I talked to the kids about foss actually consequently
being prepared when you get there, I was. I was unprepassed.
(19:50):
I was already a crackhead going to the NBA. It
was just at that point in time, I was a
millionaire crackhead going into the NBA, and I I was
new to the drugs through it. I wasn't addicted to it. Shit.
I wanted to do it, you know what I'm saying,
so I could put it down and go to practice
or go to games. But as the addiction progressed, I
(20:11):
started missing practices. I started coming late the games, you know,
to the point where the NBA started taking notice and
tipped off to my first rehab.
Speaker 4 (20:22):
And then if I recall you had several other stints
in rehab as well.
Speaker 3 (20:25):
Right, Oh, I mean I went to rehab two two times,
maybe three times in the NBA. One I went three
times while I was in the NBA. When I left, uh,
the rehab without the NBA's permission, That's when I found
out that night on ESPN's I had been banned from
(20:47):
the league. And so I mean, and again I'm just
sitting there watching it. I'm not even getting high. I'm
watching TV. I just left the rehab center because I
was I wasn't doing drugs before I went, and I
was just hanging around the same area. And the you know, dad,
they said, I'm hanging around in the same areas, how
much be doing something? So they put me back off
(21:08):
in the rehab. So me when my my smart intelligence
back then I left and they called me and they
gave me they gave me an hour to get back.
And you know, Chris always liked to walk the edge sometimes,
and uh, you know, and and after that time went over,
they didn't call me back or anything. Like I said.
I saw ESPN to Chris Washburn's band from the NBA.
(21:32):
And first thing, this is the junkie side of me
was this was the first thing I thought about, was cool,
No more practice, you know, not thinking that, no more income,
you know. So and even the fven though it was
said to me over the the TV, I stilled with
the practice the next day, and to my knowledge, at
(21:55):
that time, I was actually escorted or work in the
arena because I wasn't a player no more. So now
I'm seeing the guys going in, going down the hill,
going into the Omni. I'm standing at the top of
the hill, awaven to try to flag him down because
I don't have any money and I want to get high,
you know. And you know, I knew where we used
to go after practice to go eat lunch and all that,
(22:17):
and as a team, a few of us will get
together to go. And so I started stalking those places
out and then the guy started seeing me hanging in
those places anywhere, started going to the different places I
didn't know about, you know, And then so against I
had to learn that.
Speaker 2 (22:34):
Quick.
Speaker 4 (22:34):
And hey, Chris, when Lynn died, did that impact your
cocaine you so all? Did you think, oh my goodness,
it killed him and could kill me.
Speaker 3 (22:46):
I did, because I said we'd just gotten drafted that Tuesday,
and I spoke to him briefly after the draft and
told him I was coming through d C that Friday
because I was gonna go back down the state. Did
everybody see my new car? And then gone back to Heckory,
my little hometown so my friends and family could see me.
(23:09):
You know what I'm saying, that the new NBA guy.
But and so we said, yeah, you know, we're gonna
meet up. I said, I'll call you when I get
in the Maryland such and such. I had his number
at that time. And then, like I said, I was down.
I was downtown in Manhattan doing uh, some kind of
photo shoot and got asked me out here about Land
(23:30):
and I say, now what about you know what I mean?
You know he had died, and I didn't believe that time.
The guy went and got a New York coach. He'll
remember on the back of the post it showed me
laying it passed. Now again, I was actively getting high
at that point in time, so it did shape me.
You know what I'm saying. I did stop for uh,
(23:52):
you know, for a period of time. This was still
before preseason even started, so I stopped. I went all
the way through preseason without doing drugs. Right at the
end of pre season, me and coach Carl had gotten
into it, and that just gave me an outlet to, well,
let me go find me some cocaine. You know, I
(24:13):
know how to get rid of this problem right here,
let me go get high and so again, and that
just started it back up before a period of time
to answer you. Unfortunately, I did have a a reagion of, uh,
of not stopping, maybe slowing down, maybe not doing it
like he did because over over the times, uh, you know,
(24:34):
because I'm probably in a different circle than a lot
of folks. Looking looking in on, I found out that
he was drinking it as well as snorting and smoking.
And see, when you do the cocaine cocktails, it freezes
your whole body, so you can't tell when your heart
is real fast, you know. And see, there are certain
ways you can do to do cocaine. And my main
(24:55):
thing was, I said I was never I started snorting
in the beginning after I was introduced to it by
smoke weight, and I saw the snorting, uh, you know,
messing my nose up too much. What people would do
can identify what I was doing. Smoking, I thought was
a closet type thing. And and and that's what I
(25:15):
chose to do. I never shot it up or did
anything other than smoke.
Speaker 4 (25:19):
So so how would they drink it? What would they
put what liquid would they put it in?
Speaker 3 (25:23):
They can put it in any kind of drink. I mean,
it's just a clear power. And now you do it,
once you drink it is just it just freeze your inside,
just numbs the old inside. But when you do that,
you can't feel your your heartbeat. You know what I'm saying.
You can't. You can't tell when you've had enough to say.
Speaker 4 (25:39):
And so like what was in your understanding that that's
how Lene consumed it? He would drink it.
Speaker 3 (25:44):
No, that's how I consume it. That that that one
time is what I heard. And he tried to goain't
cocktails because now he has the money to do these
kinds of things. See before, you don't have that kind
of money to just blursion. Uh drug cocaine wasn't back.
Speaker 4 (26:00):
Then now now also did you, uh do you recall
a few and Len used cocaine together after that first time.
Speaker 3 (26:07):
No, never never got a chance to do again after that,
after the bomb storming when they came back. But I
had plans on using that weekend.
Speaker 4 (26:19):
Yeah, okay, what I have now. I don't know if
it was you or someone else told me they thought
he was using cocaine during the draft up in New York.
Speaker 3 (26:28):
It wasn't me to say that, but I wouldn't. I mean,
I was using right before the draft I got in.
Uh well, we were. We actually walked in, both of
us walked in after the hit Tall Brad daughter's name,
you know. And so that was just just that quick
because by the time we sat down there and called him,
and you know, by the time the switch started rolling
(26:49):
off my forehead, they called me, you know, And but yeah,
I just saw each other passing the hallway and that
was it all right.
Speaker 4 (26:57):
Now, uh Len's legacy, as you probably realized, it's pretty diverse.
I mean, it saved people's lives. People say they never
used drugs because he died through using cocaine. It affected
a lot of lives. It altered lives. It altered your
life by having him introduced it to you. How would
you what would you or how would you summarize lens legacy?
(27:20):
Not just the basketball We all know him as a
basketball player, but other than that, what do you think
was the biggest impact of his death.
Speaker 3 (27:29):
It brought away I think to uh to the drug
scene more so especially in the eighties where the NBA
was just finally getting over the air on era in
the seventies. You know, it just brought a light to
show that, you know, Year the five specimen, a great
(27:52):
athlete and it could kill him, you know. Uh. And
here if you look at that whole first round draft,
my yeah, uh Lan guy Lynn Tarfe Bedford. A lot
of us was dabbling back then with it. But I wouldn't.
(28:12):
I wouldn't look at it. I wouldn't harm Land's legacy
with it because again it was a trial and arab here.
You know, when we were all young trying something different.
We all thought we were superman back then, so we
would try things that we didn't think would hurt us
or you know, or we would give things to each
other that we didn't think would hurt the other person.
(28:35):
That that this is a drug that can actually keep
even uh guys in great shape.
Speaker 4 (28:42):
How has as you look back on, as you would, well,
you went to jail for a little bit.
Speaker 3 (28:46):
Correct, I went to prison for three years.
Speaker 4 (28:49):
In prison for three years. As you look back on
your ordeal with drugs and serving prison time. Do you
think this would have happened to you if you hadn't
if you hadn't used cocaine that first time?
Speaker 3 (29:06):
Was like, I don't, I don't know. I think I
would have passed. You know, I missed a lot of
things that I went through just from that one night,
because again I didn't The only other person I was
hanging with at State was Nate McMillan, and they didn't
do any any kind of drugs. You know, we were
beer drinkers, you know, I was. I was a little
(29:27):
weed smoker back then, but Nate was a beer drinking
and that's as far as That's as far as my
range went. And being in North Carolina, the little country
city there of Raleigh, cocaine wasn't big, you know. Now again,
would I may have tried it later on, because again
I didified myself in the rooms, even in the NBA,
(29:50):
with other high profile guys that were doing things. And
again I feel part too, because I didn't want them
to feel a dope, and I was going to be
the one to ra I'm out of say anything. So
who's to say that, you know, a year or two later,
five years later on down the road that I would
have walked in the room and you know, one of
the all Star guys lay up, been there and offered
(30:11):
me something. I was just taking it.
Speaker 4 (30:13):
You know, well, let me let me work this a
different way. Do you blame Len for your situation?
Speaker 3 (30:18):
Oh? No, I can't blame them, because again, I was abroad.
I was still nineteen years old when I took it
as a new right wrong. My thing was, I was
just unafraid of anything. You know, I blame myself more
so because I was unafraid of saying no, feeling like
(30:39):
guys are gonna look at me different.
Speaker 4 (30:41):
Do you use Lens Do you use Len's story at
all in your presentations when you talk to people?
Speaker 3 (30:48):
No? No, I mean no, no more than that. Yeah,
look at it like this. A person, an enemy couldn't
give you anything because they couldn't get close enough to you.
You always get things good or bad from the closest
people from you, I mean around your friends. And so again,
(31:08):
if I didn't know Lynn, lincoldn't have got to me
Lincoln and gave me. But because we were in the
same profession, you know, I wanted to be more more
like him more so on and off the court. I
guess that I was willing to take a chance and
and and entering his world and where I should have
(31:29):
stayed into mind and then well we could still court
exist on the court. I didn't have to jump off
to his lane, you know, uh, just to be a
part of and and And that's the only thing I
blame myself off. Now.
Speaker 4 (31:42):
I imagine your your story is so strong in itself,
you don't really need to refer to what happened to
lend to teach people. You know, this is what you
shouldn't do. So as you look at back, look back
at everything that you've been through, Chris, with drugs and
and and serving prison time, and how you have you
you have recovered? What is the biggest takeaway for you?
(32:05):
What's the most important thing that that you you think
back on and say, hey, you know this happened for
this reason, or this happened for that reason, or anything
to that effect.
Speaker 3 (32:14):
Well, I mean when Land came to my room that night,
it was for a reason, you know, and never knowing
the reason was stretch out over forty years almost because
I sit back and look at it, that Land would
have probably never came to my room that night. That's
that I was never introduced to drugs. Let's just say that, Uh,
(32:36):
you know, I went off and had a great career.
I may or not have met the ladies that I have,
so I may and I have the kids that I have.
Now you know, I may, and now I have met
U Man. And I went to the gym that night
because I was doing something else. I wouldn't have met
my wife that night, you know. And so again a
(32:57):
lot of these things I could be mad about, but
and reverse, a lot of these things that happening good
for me now came from that. You know. See, let's
just understanding that if I'd had one hundred million, one
hundred and fifty men like they started giving athletes back then,
how to probably put my mom off into a home
(33:19):
when I found out she had all times, instead of
you know, shutting my house down in Texas and moving back,
taking on the responsibility for teen years and helping her.
You know what I'm saying, Because if I had one
hundred and fifty million something like that, how to pay
somebody else to do that, so I wouldn't had these
last ten years with her sport. She just passed last
US last May at ninety years old. So again I
(33:43):
got a lot of good out of the wrong. I
guess the worst part is I never got to really
fulfill my basketball part where I could actually really seen well,
you know, where I could have been, because on each
level I played, I've always excelled and to All Star
or you know, uh, one of the best, and so
(34:05):
you'll actually get to the NBA where you know, all
of this stuff to be in stone. Now I kind
of gave it away freedom, you know, and and and
those are the only things that I'm mad about, you know.
Speaker 4 (34:16):
Could you could you go as far as saying you're
glad it happened that Lennon introduced you to cocaine? Would
you know that far?
Speaker 3 (34:21):
I've no none. I wouldn't say that because again I
never know what I could have actually been without the
use of it. But again I'm not mad at him
because he did, because again it opened up different doors
that I may not have opened. You know, if it
didn't introduce that to me, you know, I may have
(34:44):
been on a different street doing something else and not
have met the people that I've met over the course
of the years because of what you know, what I
got from him that at that time. But uh no,
I'm not. I don't get upset about it because you
know I did that at nineteen. If I'm still mad
about something nineteen, uh and and may I'll be fifty
(35:07):
five years old, you know I'd be crazy. You know,
life is too short. I sit back now, I believe
it or not, and look at all the guys that
stayed in shape but did all the correct things, and
that are dead now. You know that, the athletes, You know,
I can still better bay about my friends, Anthony Mason
(35:29):
shackle Put, when the war Ridge, you know, all these
Bobby Field, all these guys did it correctly, and but
but Butter not here at this time. I'm still here
and I did it wrong with wrong, with wrong than anyone.
So I must have a story to tell that someone.
I hadn't met that right person yet, you know what
(35:50):
I'm saying, because I'm still here. But there's the reason.
While I'm still here, And like I said again, you know,
cocaine opened up a lot of doors for me that
it should have also opened up a lot of doors
that it shouldn't know. It's just now that I know
how to do around those doors that opened up. You
know that I shouldn't be going to and I didn't
(36:11):
when I was younger.
Speaker 4 (36:12):
Okay, I have you been following the movement to try
to change sentence sentencing maximums for drug possessions and all
the social change happening there. Are you aware of that?
Speaker 3 (36:28):
I am? I am.
Speaker 4 (36:29):
What are your thoughts on that? Do you think it's
heading in the right direction? Now we're drug crime drug
drug sentencing should be reduced based on the crime. Do
you have What are your thoughts on that?
Speaker 3 (36:42):
I would think that and and again this is just
Chris being an athlete. Especially the cases that are involved
in marijuana. The marijuana thing, I don't see it being
bad because I know a lot of guys that would
rather smoke marijuans that take all the percase said, uh,
(37:05):
hydro codones that the doctors prescribe us. They would rather
smoke marijuana where it's more relaxing for them. Now I
can see them throwing those kind of cases out. The cocaine, again,
those are harsher drugs. And now these days, because when
I talk to the kids, they're not just using cocaine,
(37:28):
they're using scent and all they're using uh myths and
all these different things to to add into it. So
my question is, back when I was in the eighties,
and I asked a lot of kids the back when
I was in the eighties, Uh, there were three main
addictions out there, heroin, cocaine, alcohol, and now those same
addictions out there, but now we also have myth Uh,
(37:52):
you have a flocker, you have wax sir, all these
different drugs, and I'll be asking the kids, how high
do y'all want to get it? Because a lot of
time you're adding all the drugs on top of drugs
they get you. You can only get so high, and
then once you get that high, what is the plan
after you get high? You know? And and and so
(38:13):
that's why I said thoughts actually consequences, because if you
if your time just sitting around planning on getting high,
you're not playing on the future. And I'm the first
one to say that after basketball left me, it took
me a long time before I found me your niche
as far as what I wanted to do, and that
(38:35):
didn't last on because I was looking at that chick,
compare it to an NBA chick, and it just didn't
add up, you know. So that you kind of missed
doing regular. That's why I had to start opening up
things and working for myself. But you know, but but no,
like I said, the drugs, uh, the marijuana part. And
(38:56):
then I can see, you know, letting them everybody out
that because it's now starting to be legal everywhere.
Speaker 4 (39:03):
But you do, you have a position on reducing crimes
for cocaine possession and distribution as it's trying to be
implemented all that, the Social Justice reformed, the sentencing reform laws.
Speaker 3 (39:17):
But I look at the cocaine just like they're looking
at the myth. Now. Back then they back then cocaine
and we were added, you know. Now the myth is
more if they need help. You know, I look at
and actually been an addict. Yeah, you can't live life
on life terms. You need something to cope with you
(39:39):
an addict. But cocaine wise, you know, I think everyone
needs him. I think everyone needs the first, second, third, fourth,
fifth chance, you know, because look at me. I went
to rehab fourteen times. You know, I went fourteen times.
And when I finally got it and I didn't go
to rehab, I just came to a point where I
(39:59):
was tired of doing it. You know, you can't make
a person even now, even when I was in prison,
because I wouldn't actually trying to stop getting huh. I
was smoking, cracking prison, So it's in there as well,
you know, So it only comes out to the person
wanting to actually stop. I tell a lot of the kids,
you can't do nothing for mom and daddy, baby, sister, brother,
(40:22):
none of that kind of stuff. Until you're ready to stop,
You're gonna keep doing it. Because I said, I waste
a lot of people's money in time fourteen times, you know,
until I was ready to stop myself, you know. And
when I was ready to stop myself, believe or not,
I never picked it back up. June June of two
thousand and ten, sorry, June of two thousand and one
(40:47):
is when I stopped. So I'm going on twenty years
this June, and again, is it hard, Yes, because I'm
just one one year away from being back to where
I was at before. But the best thing I do
know about this is that I know the knowledge of
it now. I know if I take a hit, that
(41:09):
I'm a liable to give all my jewelry away, upon
my cars and different things better than in the beginning
where you know, you knew I knew anyone. I didn't
know anyone had done cracked or real cocaine, you know
when I first started. So I had to kind of,
you know, feel my way through you know, alcohol because
(41:29):
my dad was a big drinker, I knew I never
wanted to drink a lot of alcohol. To this day,
I don't drink, you know, so so things presented to
me I kind of watched and filtered out, you know,
to do it in the bad. That was just something
brock to me that I didn't know anything about. Chris.
Speaker 4 (41:47):
Thank you so much for all your insights and your reflections.
Speaker 1 (41:52):
Thank you, Len Bias A Mixed Legacy. The interviews was
produced by Daveon Grady and Don Marcus any becaust Lend.
Bias A Mixed Legacy is distributed by The Eights.
Speaker 4 (42:06):
I never I hope they do the
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