October 27, 2023 • 33 mins
Dave and don interview UCF Head Coach, former NCAA Player of the Year at Duke, and former NBA point guard Johnny Dawkins. Johnny remembers his time playing against Len in the ACC, barnstorming games and pickup games. His unique perspective is shared on how Len's tragic death and legacy helped save lives.
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
U six games.
Speaker 2 (00:06):
Get it All, Johnny, Obviously, you have a unique perspective
on this story, having you know, really been a part
of it in terms of being a guy who went
through you know, high school around the same time in
the DC area, with Land playing against him for four years,
you know, Duke Maryland, you know Duke Maryland games, and
(00:26):
then being.
Speaker 1 (00:26):
A part of that eighty six draft.
Speaker 2 (00:28):
Class, and and when you look back at at at
what happened and what you know, how great a player
he could have been.
Speaker 1 (00:40):
Are there are there.
Speaker 2 (00:41):
Any times where you're watching something that will remind you,
whether it's you know, I know, they last summer at
ESPN did a whole three hour segment on remembering Len
Bias or they thought, you know, or the Last Dance.
Is there anything that you know when you when you're
now thirty five years thirty five years later, when you're
watching something reminds you of when when all that transpired,
(01:04):
whether it was the.
Speaker 1 (01:05):
High school years, the college years, or or or or
the draft.
Speaker 3 (01:10):
Well, I mean, you know, there's always something that's going
to remind you of many, uh, you know, in today's
sport of course, just whether it's watching some you know,
elite player out there excelling at the sport. You think about,
you know, what could have been, you know, if he
had was able to continue his career. You think about,
of course the tragedies that happened, you know, in society,
(01:33):
and you know unfortunately with with drugs and so forth.
You know, you see that happen, and that may pop
into your mind again about just how sad a story
that was that he that that he passed away, you
know because of a drug you know, overdose or a
drug situation.
Speaker 1 (01:49):
So uh, you.
Speaker 3 (01:51):
Know, so whenever those things pop up, So it's not
a time I think any year that goes by if
you don't think of many and just he stays with.
Speaker 1 (01:59):
You right now. You played in d c U.
Speaker 2 (02:04):
So I don't know how much there was intercompetition between
you know, it was a strictly summer summer pickup games
where you first saw Lan, uh five Star camp. Whe
was the first time you really saw Lan played against them,
you know, got an known well.
Speaker 4 (02:19):
The first time.
Speaker 3 (02:20):
You know, of course, you know I ended up you
know five Star basketball campus one and then two would
be you know, we were on the we were on
the Capitol Classic team together, you know, so we played
on that team together actually came out with co MVPs
and it was a great celebration because that's where they
take the DC area's best basketball players and they play
(02:41):
against the All Americans from all over the country. And
so of course to win that game against all the
All Americans from all over the country is a big
deal in our city.
Speaker 4 (02:49):
And we were able to win that game, and we
shared the MVP, and so that was something that was special.
Speaker 3 (02:55):
We were supposed to play each other that same season,
but the game got canceled because the snow, and so
we didn't get a chance to.
Speaker 4 (03:02):
Play against each other and during our senior year, which
is unfortunate. But but definitely those are some of us,
some some real fond mary, some good times.
Speaker 1 (03:10):
Right.
Speaker 2 (03:11):
Any play in particular in the you know, against any
big name player in the uh Capitol Classic that you
remember when making uh not to.
Speaker 3 (03:20):
Me big time plays, I mean he just I mean,
like See's VP of the game. So uh, he definitely
made a number of plays.
Speaker 4 (03:27):
I can't particularly think of one of this age of
about careers, but he uh, you know, he was phenomenal.
I mean I'm sure he you know, he was just more.
Speaker 3 (03:36):
Than an athlete out there, and he had such a
good touch of good feel, you know, such a soft
jump shot for a guy that was that explosive.
Speaker 4 (03:43):
And so he was a unique player.
Speaker 2 (03:45):
Yeah, now you made an immediate impact that duke, and
Duke was a I think you it was more of
a rebuilding situation when you went there with with with
Tommy and and and and I think Jay was in
that class.
Speaker 1 (03:57):
Allery, I think was in that class.
Speaker 2 (04:00):
He went to a team more veteran team. When when
you saw him as a freshman, you know, maybe early
sophomore as at Maryland, did you did you think, well,
he's deferring to you know, the Ben Colemans and the
Adrian Branches and wait, wait till he really shows what
he can do. What was your thought early on? And
then when did you say, oh, okay, that's the guy
(04:22):
I remember from the cap Classic and from DC.
Speaker 4 (04:26):
Well, I knew he was going to emerge and I
saw him in a Capitol Classic.
Speaker 3 (04:29):
To have that kind of performance on that stage, you know,
told him everything I need to know about him and
how good he could become.
Speaker 4 (04:34):
So it was just a matter of time before he
started to excel at Maryland.
Speaker 3 (04:37):
I mean, the thing about Lenny is the thing I
knew about him was he put a lot of time
on getting better physically and on his skill, on his
game and shooting.
Speaker 4 (04:46):
I mean, he he was a guy. He went to
the gym, He wanted to work.
Speaker 3 (04:48):
You know, I'd always knew that about him, even though
I didn't always see him, because you can always tell
the players that put that kind of time in you
could watch their game grow and develop. So like I
saw it grow and develop from where he came from
high school, all sudden he's sharing an m v P
of the Capitol Classic. I do the same thing was
going to apply. He kept that same work in.
Speaker 4 (05:05):
College for.
Speaker 1 (05:07):
You know, everybody talks about the game against Carolina.
Speaker 2 (05:11):
That was the first year I was on the beat
at the Sun covering him, and and in one of
the other games I remember is the game against Duke.
He had forty one I think at Cameron and and
and I think Keith was even his point guard was
sick that night or back injury or something. And I
remember Coach k saying that was the best performance ever
by a visiting player at Cameron at that time. What
(05:32):
do you have any memories of that night? And I
know Jay talked about it, like, you know, coming back
to the huddle. Basically all the huddle, all the defensive
huddles were about like, Okay, are we going to stop
this guy?
Speaker 1 (05:43):
You know what, what what are we going to do?
Speaker 3 (05:46):
Well, Jay, as institutional memories, he can remember those things
bad than I am, for sure, But you know I
do remember him just having a phenomenal night.
Speaker 4 (05:54):
He was, uh, he was unguardable. I mean, when you
get it going like he got it going, you know,
you know, going to slow him down. I remember that.
Speaker 3 (06:02):
You know, it's very competitive, all being from the same
area of course, you know, so you definitely you definitely,
you know, we.
Speaker 4 (06:08):
Beating him up there.
Speaker 3 (06:09):
Of course they coming back to have a chance to
play us at our place, and so not one to
lose back to back games.
Speaker 4 (06:15):
And so he put on a great performance and I'll
never forget that. Just you know, we we sent everything out,
a number of guys starting him. But you know, as far.
Speaker 3 (06:22):
As his abilities, I mean, like I said, he was
at a stage in his career in his game where
he was he was at he was at the top.
I mean, so he was definitely, uh playing some really
good basketball.
Speaker 2 (06:32):
And what do you remember about the ACA. Yeah, it's
probably something you don't want to remember. But the ACC
championship game in eighty four, Uh, any any any memories
of that? That game and uh, you know obviously that
was almost like, you know, his coming out as a star.
Speaker 1 (06:47):
You know, at ACC tournament.
Speaker 3 (06:49):
I would say exactly what you said that to me.
In the ACC that was his coming out party. I
thought he he played really, really well. He started to
play a way as I mentioned before, you so coming
to Capitol Classic, how I started to just you know
develop and then you see him, you know, having a
year's freshman year of course, like a lot of freshmen
a lot of places, he's figuring it out. And then
(07:10):
he's working hard, he's figuring it out. And then his
sophomore year again he started to excel. And uh, I
think that that game.
Speaker 4 (07:17):
If the championship was, was his coming out party.
Speaker 3 (07:20):
As you just mentioned, I don't think you can put any
better than that. He was terrific. Again, you know, he
started just making play after play. He just like I said,
it was very difficult to guard because he did so
many things, whether it's shooting the ball from the perimeter,
whether it's you know, finishing around the basket, offensive rebounds,
getting out in the lane and running.
Speaker 4 (07:36):
I mean, he just was like I said, he was.
Speaker 3 (07:38):
He was so well rounded as a player and can't
find too many faults in his game.
Speaker 4 (07:43):
And those guys are the hardest ones to defend.
Speaker 1 (07:46):
Yeah, uh, do you have it?
Speaker 2 (07:48):
I mean you were a part of that eighty sixth class.
You were a first round pick of the Spurs. Do
you have any memories of that night? How excited you
guys were, you know, two guys from d see being
tramp picks together and and and and then two days
later hearing the news about you Land had passed.
Speaker 3 (08:09):
Just you know, definitely, you know, I remember us getting
drafted and and and congratulating each other, you know, very happy,
And these are something that you've worked on pretty much.
Speaker 4 (08:16):
It feels like your entire life.
Speaker 3 (08:18):
So to see that dream come true and you be
selected amongst those few players have an opportunity to play
at that level, Uh, it's a cost of celebrations. So
we were very excited, very happy sharing that with each other.
Just the fact that man, congratulations, congratulations, man, good luck
and uh I remember it being that type of conversation.
And then uh, like I said, and two days later.
(08:40):
Now everyone kind of can remember where they were during
that time, and uh, you know, I'm down back in
Carolina at that point in time. I'm actually out fishing,
and uh have a little little radio while I'm out
there fishing, and it comes across the radio that that
Lenny Lenny passed.
Speaker 4 (08:58):
And then first you listen to you like, that can't
be true. I just saw him, you know, forty eight
hours ago or so.
Speaker 3 (09:04):
And uh, they repeating it and they're just everyone's in
shock on the radio talking about it. And I just
got up, of course, you just got up and left
and went back to uh went back home and followed
up with people and you know, it wasn't cell phones
back then.
Speaker 4 (09:17):
Stuff.
Speaker 3 (09:18):
Went back and followed up with people and everyone confirmed that, yeah,
he had passed, and just you know, just remember just being.
Speaker 4 (09:24):
Really in shock. Just how you know, how how life is.
Speaker 3 (09:29):
That's how life works, you know, all of a sudden,
she got in the prime of his you know, with
his abilities and everything in the world ahead of him
to play for and to become a great player at
the next level, and the next day is just gone
and they just you know, feel was shocking.
Speaker 2 (09:44):
We talked about you played with him on the ACC
Barnstorming Tour that earlier that that spring.
Speaker 1 (09:51):
Uh what was that like? What was the Barnstorming Tour like?
Speaker 2 (09:54):
And what was it being a teammate again to bring
back memories of the CAP Classic or obviously that's a
much differ you know format, it's much looser and everything
like that.
Speaker 4 (10:04):
Well, Barmstone was fun.
Speaker 1 (10:06):
It was.
Speaker 3 (10:06):
It was always a great event in the Carolinas where
you'd go play and you play in different different towns
and play against the local you know, fire department, you
know police department, you know, faculty.
Speaker 4 (10:18):
From the high schools and schools and just it was
a fun, fun time.
Speaker 3 (10:23):
It's kind of a celebration of all the ACC players
and so yeah, when he decided to come down and play,
it just made it that much more special to be
able to unite with him in that type of environment
and not.
Speaker 4 (10:33):
Just be competing against them, which we had done before
straight years. So it was a lot of fun.
Speaker 3 (10:38):
Just uh, you know, of course, to show me that
he is, he would you know, he'd go out there
and you know do some amazing things of course during
the games or in the layup lines, and uh, just
you know, just fond memories and but he, like I said,
those are those were just like I said, memories I
throw a j probably can elaborate on them some more
as well, but just just fun times where you know,
(10:58):
your chance to celebrate each other other, celebrate the moment.
Speaker 4 (11:01):
You know, college is winding down.
Speaker 3 (11:03):
For us, a new chapter is about to begin, and
we're kind of having fun, you know, kind of that
in between college and the NBA.
Speaker 2 (11:12):
In terms of you, you got to see through your eyes,
you know, the seasons you played in the NBA, you
saw Michael obviously developed pretty quickly into the player that
legend that he became. You know, when did you ever
think about, you know, man, Len would have been right there.
Lenn would have been right not I say right there
(11:33):
with Michael, but right there as one of the top,
you know, eventually as one of the top players in
the league. Had he gotten that chance, knowing his skills,
knowing his game, is there any doubt that he would
have been considered one of the best players of his era.
Speaker 3 (11:47):
It's no doubt in my mind that he would have been.
I mean, he was, he was. He had the skill
set to be very successful. He shot the ball with
good range. You know, I had a great touch, I
mean around the basket. Nobody could jep with him. I
mean I played prolls some for a decade. He was
still you know.
Speaker 4 (12:02):
Top one percentile of athlete at that level, so that
wouldn't have been an issue for him. He could finish
in the low post. You know, he could defend. I mean,
he was long, he was competitive, He had all the
attributes to be very successful. So I had you know, Mom,
I had no doubt that he'd have been one of
one of the greatest players to play. You had he
had that opportunity.
Speaker 2 (12:22):
Did when you watch the NBA and you know, you
coach college prou so so long, is there any player
in all the time since then that reminds you reminded
you of Len at all, whether it's Zion or I
mean Lebron maybe more passing skills, and I don't want
to put him in that category if he's not, But
(12:44):
any anybody remind you of the Wayland played in his
ear compared to guys now or over the year.
Speaker 3 (12:52):
That's that's a difficult question for me because the game
has evolved so much. I mean, Lenny wasn't you know,
really put it on the floor and do a lot
of dribbles to create his offense. So and a lot
of the players you see nowadays, you know, they had
the ball in their hands for you know, a large
percentage of the time, and they can make whatever plays
they want to make when they want to make it.
You know, Lenny played off of people. You know, he
(13:12):
played off of the guards and played off of guys.
He received it, he shot it, you know, he received
it and you close out, you know, improperly.
Speaker 4 (13:20):
He drove, he ripped him into the basket right away.
Speaker 3 (13:23):
He'd go down going the low post, which they don't
even play down there anymore.
Speaker 4 (13:26):
So if they don't even play up back to the
basket too much anymore.
Speaker 3 (13:30):
So, No, it isn't not anyone that really comes to mind,
Like no, Zion doesn't come to mind.
Speaker 4 (13:35):
Lebron doesn't come to mind. You know, he was unique
in who he was.
Speaker 3 (13:38):
I mean, just like I said, they have that type
of athleticism and they had that type of shooting stroke.
Speaker 4 (13:44):
That combination. I think he would have been successful on
any level he played on. It would he be very
successful now absolutely, because his skill sets will allow him
to do that.
Speaker 3 (13:52):
He could walk out there now because of his ability
to shoot the basketball still with that athleticism then play
making at the basket, he would have a lot of success.
Speaker 4 (13:59):
And it's like he would have done the same thing
during that time.
Speaker 2 (14:03):
Yeah, at Tapscott was talking about his hit for calling back.
You know, when when you and Franklin Frank Ross would
come up to the gym and work out. Len occasionally,
I guess came and played up there. And Agan Branch.
Speaker 1 (14:17):
He said there was a point in time, probably you know,
maybe a.
Speaker 2 (14:21):
Year before he passed away, that that you guys not
not necessarily expressed concern about him, but he would show
up with guys you didn't know, and and and you like,
you know about the guy. Maybe he was just okay guy,
he didn't know, You didn't know what his intentions were
or whatever, whether he was really a friend or just
(14:42):
trying to sort of feed off of Len's celebrity. Was
there every concern in your part that you know, maybe
he was widening the circle too much?
Speaker 5 (14:51):
Uh?
Speaker 3 (14:51):
Well, you know, typically, you know, in our sport, and
we used to go to America and play, and then
he would occasionally come down and.
Speaker 4 (14:57):
Play, that's for sure.
Speaker 3 (14:58):
And uh, you know that was times again because you
get a chance to work out and pete against each
other and pick up ball, which is a total different
type of game than you would during the course of
the season. So that was a lot of fun times
working on skills and trying to get better.
Speaker 4 (15:11):
But ye, absolutely, you know, usually you know, you know,
you know, usually.
Speaker 3 (15:16):
You know, the basketball players kind of you know, hang
with the basketball players, and so you just kind of
just kind of saw that during our time that's kind
of been expanded. Now you watch the players as they've
kind of come up through the nineties and into the
two thousands, you see bigger i won't say lack of
a better world entouragists, but you see bigger groups of
people together ranging from all kind of you know, different
(15:37):
things that they're into, whether it's business, whether it's basketball,
whether it's you know, whatever the you know they choose
to do.
Speaker 4 (15:44):
But yeah, so Lenny would.
Speaker 3 (15:45):
Have a different type of you know, a combination of
players as well as people that maybe weren't you know, players.
Speaker 2 (15:53):
Yeah, was there ever a concern about who he was
hanging out with or were they they were just guys
that you met, h.
Speaker 4 (16:00):
Uh, guys that he knew, guys that he was friends with.
Speaker 3 (16:03):
I mean we didn't know him as well, so I
might have, you know, one way or another, uh to
kind of you know, for me, just guys that he knew,
we didn't really know as well. So uh, but they
were they were his friends and so I know they
wouldn't have been with him if he didn't you know,
he wasn't comfortable around him, right, Okay, Dave, you have some.
Speaker 6 (16:24):
Questions, Yes I do. Thanks again Johnny for taking the time.
Can you go back a little when you were playing
basketball in high school and uh what you were hearing
or thinking seeing or were or were thinking about lenn
at that time? He was he a level above target.
(16:48):
I mean there's a lot of good players. What what
separated him, if anything from other players?
Speaker 4 (16:53):
Uh?
Speaker 3 (16:54):
You know one the thing the thing that I admired,
like like I'm sure you know, Coach TAP's gotta say
this about We were in the gym all the time,
we were working and trying to get better all the time,
and the thing I knew about him, even though I
didn't see him every day, was that's how he was.
And I just always respected guys who really worked on
their craft. I mean, you know when you love the
game and you're passionate about it, you know you're gonna
(17:15):
put whatever time it takes to become.
Speaker 4 (17:17):
Great at it.
Speaker 3 (17:17):
And and I could tell he was doing that because
there wasn't a time I didn't see him getting better
and better.
Speaker 4 (17:22):
You can't improve in this game without the reps about
putting in the time. And so that's the.
Speaker 3 (17:26):
Thing I knew about Lenny was that he had to
have a heck of a work ethic. And you look
at him physically, I mean, you know, looking at him physically,
you know, you could tell that he was now spending
time work on his ball skills, but also you know,
in the weight room and so forth. You could just
tell that he had committed to wanting to be a
great player. And I have a great deal of respect
for guys who, whatever profession they choose, when they, you know,
(17:46):
attack it that way because they attacking it with a passion.
Speaker 1 (17:49):
Because he was cool, quick, and he was so old
or from because.
Speaker 6 (17:56):
Even Don made a reference a little earlier to some
of the people he may have been hanging out with
more basketball players. Do you remember meeting Brian Tribble, and
if so, did you have any thoughts about Brian or
what was there any concern that he was hanging out
with this guy?
Speaker 4 (18:11):
Well, of course I'm sure that, Madam.
Speaker 3 (18:13):
Before you know, probably between pick up ball down America
University or barnstorming somewhere, I'm sure we'd probably run across
each other.
Speaker 4 (18:23):
I would venture to say we had.
Speaker 6 (18:25):
Did you remember having anybody having any concerns about him?
Speaker 3 (18:30):
I don't remember anybody really discussing that. You know that
they didn't come out. No one came to me and
said they had a concern about him at that time.
Speaker 6 (18:36):
Okay, there was a We talked a bit about barnstorming.
I write this in the book. I talked with Chris Washburn.
You remember who Chris was, obviously, absolutely yeah, And Chris
tells me the story and I write in the book,
and he recounted that story for the podcast series. In
the interview last week, how Lynn introduced him to cocaine
on the barn Storming tour in eighty six. He was
(18:59):
with a guy named Charles Logan and they locked on
his door to bet one in the morning, and Chris
said he was in bed and he had never used
cocaine before, but it was len bias. He looked up
to lend like an idol, and he said, I'm not
going to turned Lend down.
Speaker 5 (19:12):
This went on for four hours.
Speaker 6 (19:14):
He said he missed his class the next morning and
he never either. You're probably aware of what happened to
Chris with cocaine. Do you remember Charles Logan? Do you
remember hearing anything about him? Because he's passed away, he
can't confirm it. Uh, And that's was there any indication
at that time that you saw Lens sorta even on
the trip, if you saw him enough that there was something,
(19:35):
you know, where's he going or what's he doing kind
of stuff?
Speaker 3 (19:38):
No, not at all, you know, unlike you know Chris,
we never stayed in the places we bonsed on him,
so we would always drive in, play the game, and
then drive right out. So I never like stayed around
hung out at the hotel we played. I'm headed right back.
All the games in Carolina.
Speaker 5 (19:53):
Oh, let's be the point.
Speaker 4 (19:54):
Longest drive is going to be the probably.
Speaker 3 (19:56):
The longest drive would be askedal it was going to
be three and a half hours right after games.
Speaker 4 (19:59):
Oh, I just head back and go sleep them on bed.
Speaker 5 (20:01):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (20:02):
Yeah.
Speaker 6 (20:02):
The the the gentleman who who ran the the tournament.
Speaker 5 (20:07):
We interad him last week.
Speaker 6 (20:08):
He telling great stories about how interactive Lynn was with
people down there, and how he how he was so
engaging with the people, how he would stay longer than
anybody else to sign autographs and and and did you
see some of that? And if you did, what what
do you recall from those after those games? If he
was doing anything that sort of set him apart from
anyone else.
Speaker 4 (20:28):
So he was, That's who he is. I mean, you
know he you know he was.
Speaker 3 (20:31):
I mean he was, like I said, he had gotten
to a point in his career where he developed and
worked really hard to become a great, great player. And
the thing that that did you admire about him is
that he always stayed the same from the standpoint of
you know, with people. You know, he was always it
doesn't surprise, but he was good with people that that
he signed autographs as long as they wanted, or he
would talk to people, you know, if they came by
(20:52):
him and they wanted to, you know, ask a question
or something.
Speaker 4 (20:54):
I don't I would never see him.
Speaker 3 (20:56):
I could never see him saying no to an autograph,
and I could never see him.
Speaker 4 (20:59):
Not giving one some time that that may have come
by and wanted to speak to him. This is not
who he was. And uh and and yet I don't
I didn't see him change that as as he was
continuing to move forward with success.
Speaker 6 (21:10):
How did you see his death affect a couple perspectives
young basketball players in the DC area?
Speaker 5 (21:18):
Is where you grew up? You grew up in d C. Correct?
Speaker 6 (21:21):
Ye, yes, young players in the area after he died. Also,
you went under play pro ball after he died. Did
you see any impact on players within the NBA? Well,
this happened to Lend. We have to be careful it
could happen to us. And was there sort of was
there more of an emotional impact, a personal kind of
(21:42):
sadness that you saw within the DC community from it?
Speaker 5 (21:45):
Then?
Speaker 3 (21:47):
Definitely a sadness in the DMV. There was definitely a
sadness in that community. Uh, you know, probably still is
to be quite frank, I mean just you know, just
think about who he would have become. I think everyone
carries that, you know with them and just said that
that it ends in such a tragedy, so his life.
But yeah, same thing with being the NBA. I think
(22:08):
it was something that people thought about. I can't recall
any particular stories, but for sure. I mean, you know,
every year of the anniversary of what happened comes up,
whenever year it's the draft, you know, that story comes
up and relive it. So definitely everyone you know, as
I think had an effect on everyone. And I will say,
you know, I think it goes you know, unknown, or
(22:32):
maybe it doesn't. But I mean, how many lives do
we think he saved by would happen? I mean, I
think sometimes we overlook the fact that, you know, a
generation of players that have come behind him. I mean,
who knows that that would have happened to one or
more of those players if it hadn't been for the
story of len Bias.
Speaker 4 (22:49):
So, you know, talking.
Speaker 3 (22:50):
About leaving the legacy, I mean is like you said,
it's a broad legacy.
Speaker 4 (22:53):
And that's part of this legacy too.
Speaker 3 (22:55):
I think he saved a lot more lives that will
never know because of history and the fact that we
kept his story alive, the way that Desbon kept alive.
Speaker 6 (23:04):
We in that thought patem we present the title of
the book is born ready a mixed legacy of lend
biased because it is there are people whose lives were saved,
There are peoples whose lives were greatly altered, and that's
you're putting.
Speaker 5 (23:15):
That, you're really capturing that very well. Uh left to
Grissel told me a story about how when he came
out of when I.
Speaker 6 (23:21):
Talked to him for the book a year or so
before the book came out, he was coming out of
a church in Virginia Beach and a man walked up
to him who he didn't know, and said, you coached
Grisel And he said yes, Diam. He said, did you
coach Len Bias? He said yes, I did. And he said, well,
Len Bias saved my life. He said, what do you mean?
He said, when Len died, I was addicted to cocaine.
(23:42):
I lost my job, I lost my family, all that.
And he said, I stopped using when Len died.
Speaker 1 (23:49):
Did you? Uh?
Speaker 6 (23:51):
We did it have any maybe not that dramatic, any
personal impact on you to stay away from drugs or
any of your friends say, whoa, hey, Len died. That's
the big red light to stop science. I got to
be more aware of this.
Speaker 4 (24:04):
Uh no, not in my personal life. You know, that's
not something that I was really interested in.
Speaker 3 (24:09):
But it did propel me to when I give like
speeches you know, you speak to a lot of basketball
camps and I always, you know, have a part about
drugs in there because of that.
Speaker 4 (24:19):
I think that's there strictly because of Lenny.
Speaker 3 (24:21):
I wouldn't have used that story and different things of
that nature if it hadn't been for what happened to him.
So pretty much every time I'll give my you know,
so with COVID, we may not be able to have
a camp again this year, but if I had it,
you know, I speak to my kids again, and every
time I give my lecture, I always have a portion
of it about about staying away from drugs.
Speaker 4 (24:42):
And I think it's a direct result of what happened
to Lenny.
Speaker 6 (24:45):
Do you actually tell part of Len's story or make
a reference to lend or it's more of a general
kind of more of.
Speaker 3 (24:50):
A general I don't really use I don't reference Lenny
in the stories, you know, I just kind of, you know,
tell tell my story. But it's I know it's because
of memory of my memory of Lenny is why I
do that. I probably, you know, doing a basketball camp
typically it's you know, about a lot of things you
can help young people growing. But I made a point
to always talk about drugs, and I think that's directly
(25:11):
related to Lenny.
Speaker 6 (25:12):
Dave Dickerson, who was on the team when Lenn died.
You may remember Dave from being a Maryland player. Yes,
he later coached at Tulane, and he tells he was
a Tulane during Hurricane Katrina. And he tells me a
story that I write about in the book that if
you recalled Chulane had to go to I think it
was Texas, A and m They had to pretty much
uproot their lives.
Speaker 5 (25:32):
Everything was very distorted and very unsettled.
Speaker 6 (25:36):
And he told the story of Land and his connection
to being part of that story as a way to
inspire his players.
Speaker 5 (25:47):
Look, this is a challenge. This is going to be hard.
I work through this. If I work through this, you
can work through this.
Speaker 6 (25:54):
You your college coaching career, have you told his story
in that perspective?
Speaker 5 (26:00):
Have you used him at all talking to some of
your players?
Speaker 4 (26:03):
I definitely have, definitely with my teams.
Speaker 3 (26:05):
You know, I can't say every team, but I definitely
have used this story about the important of staying away
from drugs, understanding that the harm it can cause, and
how this is what happened to one man in his life,
and so you know, most of them because of like
I said, it comes around every year right after the
draft that most of them have heard of them.
Speaker 4 (26:22):
So when I start telling him that somebody I.
Speaker 3 (26:25):
Played against, we played at the same time, you know,
pick up ball, and and so when I was telling
those stories, it kind of, I think, brings everything, you know,
you know, it kind of brings it kind of crystallizes
it for all of those guys because they realize, like that, hey,
you actually knew that guy that we kind of only
heard stories about.
Speaker 4 (26:41):
So you know, you know, it gives me.
Speaker 3 (26:43):
A little bit of credibility when it comes to like
trying to explain to those guys important that they need
to make sure that they don't you know, you know,
you know, going down the path that could put them
in a position where you know, you never know that
you don't you know, you can end up dying off
of something from something like that.
Speaker 6 (27:00):
When you were playing against him in college, did you
ever step back and say, whoa man, how did he
do that? Was there any moments of marvel because you
were a player of the year, I mean, and you
were as established, if not more established, as a basketball
player as level but were there any moments when either
I wish I could do that, or or boy, look
what he just did.
Speaker 5 (27:20):
I don't know if I could ever do that.
Speaker 4 (27:21):
No, absolutely, I just think about times, you know.
Speaker 3 (27:24):
I remember we were playing pickup ball, like a University
of Maryland one time when I was home, and uh,
you know, and they threw him a really really bad pass,
and like one of these passes that you really shouldn't
be able to catch him do anything with, he still
caught it and managed to take the.
Speaker 4 (27:40):
Ball all the way to the room and dunket while
he was still in the air.
Speaker 3 (27:42):
And I'm just looking around, and I think I was
telling them what I was talking to one of the players.
I forget it was man man Keith Gavin to one
of the guys, and I recall it correctly. It was like, well,
we like to throw him back, you know, bad passes,
because those make them, you know, the best you know
dumps for them, because he's able to still catch him
and do stuff that no one else could do with
the basketball and and that and that's right.
Speaker 4 (28:03):
I mean, he was.
Speaker 3 (28:04):
So like I said, he was such a such a
gifted athlete to go along with his skill set that
I just made it was It was fun to watch
plays like that that you knew that no one else
could do.
Speaker 6 (28:15):
When you think of your history with the theory of basketball,
as the college player of the year, as a professional player,
college coach, and you think of all the impactful stories
that have happened in basketball or in sports during your
lifetime and at the level that you competed in coach,
does any story have compared is it comparable an impact?
Speaker 5 (28:38):
Uh? How he died? What is it the society?
Speaker 6 (28:42):
The grong you said, you think it still had earlier,
It's still had some kind of an impact in the in.
Speaker 5 (28:48):
The area today.
Speaker 4 (28:49):
It really does.
Speaker 5 (28:50):
Imagine.
Speaker 4 (28:52):
I'm sorry, I don't think there's any story that has
as much impact as that story.
Speaker 2 (28:57):
Uh.
Speaker 4 (28:58):
It was a tragedy.
Speaker 3 (28:59):
I mean, what happened, no matter what some of the
other stories may possess, you know, the fact that this
man died from what happened in that story, Uh, you know,
just it's very rarely does that happen, and uh, you
know in my lifetime anyway, And so absolutely that's that's
the number one story. And uh, there's some great lessons
(29:20):
within that story. I think that, uh that we can
take from and that a lot of people have taken
from as you mentioned before, mhm.
Speaker 6 (29:27):
And we can wrap it up with this un the
sun has something else you you make.
Speaker 5 (29:30):
You mentioned a big.
Speaker 6 (29:32):
Part of his legacy is it changed a lot of
lives in the positive way, kept them wasting drugs or whatever.
Speaker 5 (29:38):
Is that his most important legacy? Do you think?
Speaker 2 (29:41):
Uh?
Speaker 4 (29:43):
I think it's right up there.
Speaker 3 (29:44):
I think, you know when I when I think about him,
and I think about what could have happened during that time,
and and you know afterwards, you know, I just I
just had that that gut feeling, especially having played you know,
beyond college, that that he's that he saved a lot
of lives by what happened.
Speaker 4 (30:00):
I think the fact that you.
Speaker 3 (30:02):
Could see this strong, talented, you know, just personable man,
you know, succumb to drugs the way he did and
die from him, I think everyone came to realization that
none of us are you know, what's a good word
for we?
Speaker 4 (30:18):
You know, we all aren't. None of us are basically invincible.
Speaker 3 (30:24):
You know, we all are in a position where we
you know, we're not invincible. And I tell my players
that to this day, I say, you know, you guys
walk around you like your Superman, but you know, we
really aren't. We all are vulnerable and we all can
succumb to something. And again, you know, you think about
linear situation because it's no more powerful explosive person and
(30:46):
player than he was during his time, and he was
still in his early twenties, and so if that can
happen to him, it can happen to anybody.
Speaker 5 (30:53):
I apologize. I did think of one more as you're talking.
Speaker 6 (30:57):
When you were playing in the NBA was right after
Lynn died, and there's a lot of speculation, and I
think some of it's valid because we'll never know that
he could have been the rivalry to Jordan, that magic
was the bird, that that uh Wilt was to go Russell,
did you hear any talk in the NBA that man,
(31:18):
what would have been like if len Bias would have
been playing now? Did was there any kind of dreamy
dreamy what could have been kind of.
Speaker 4 (31:27):
Discussion kind of like what you're saying now.
Speaker 3 (31:29):
I mean everyone was, you know, wondering what type of
NBA player, what type of impact he would have had?
Uh And the same thing you said about the rivalry
with Jordan is you know, you know everyone.
Speaker 4 (31:40):
Thought but that that could have been a great rivalry
that that never came to pass.
Speaker 3 (31:44):
Uh, absolutely, that that kind of was floating around out there.
I can't say who and what, but that kind of
thing was floating around people and and uh and and
it's it makes sense to to think like that. And uh,
you know, because he was, you know, he was on
track to become a great, great player, and it was
just a function of you know, how far would he get?
But but you knew he was on the right path.
(32:04):
And uh and Jordan of course had already started. It
made that turn, and of course we see where he
is now the greatest player.
Speaker 4 (32:11):
To ever play our game. And uh, so you know,
you know how good was that playing in college basketball
in the ACC back in the mid eighties and you
got Jordan, you got Lenny and the cast of other players.
Speaker 3 (32:22):
So it was, uh, it was a phenomenal time. And unfortunately,
you know, we didn't get to see a carry on
to the NBA for for who you know, which which
had been some amazing you know decade or a decade
or so of those two guys, you know, being able
to play at an amazing level.
Speaker 5 (32:38):
Johnny, thank you. Don Do you have any.
Speaker 1 (32:40):
Follow up Good, Thanks Johnny Good, Sean.
Speaker 7 (32:45):
Len bias A Mixed Legacy. The interviews was produced by
Daveon Grady and Don Marcus. Len bias A Mixed Legacy
is distributed by the Eighth Side Network.
Speaker 2 (33:00):
It
U six games.
Speaker 2 (00:06):
Get it All, Johnny, Obviously, you have a unique perspective
on this story, having you know, really been a part
of it in terms of being a guy who went
through you know, high school around the same time in
the DC area, with Land playing against him for four years,
you know, Duke Maryland, you know Duke Maryland games, and
(00:26):
then being.
Speaker 1 (00:26):
A part of that eighty six draft.
Speaker 2 (00:28):
Class, and and when you look back at at at
what happened and what you know, how great a player
he could have been.
Speaker 1 (00:40):
Are there are there.
Speaker 2 (00:41):
Any times where you're watching something that will remind you,
whether it's you know, I know, they last summer at
ESPN did a whole three hour segment on remembering Len
Bias or they thought, you know, or the Last Dance.
Is there anything that you know when you when you're
now thirty five years thirty five years later, when you're
watching something reminds you of when when all that transpired,
(01:04):
whether it was the.
Speaker 1 (01:05):
High school years, the college years, or or or or
the draft.
Speaker 3 (01:10):
Well, I mean, you know, there's always something that's going
to remind you of many, uh, you know, in today's
sport of course, just whether it's watching some you know,
elite player out there excelling at the sport. You think about,
you know, what could have been, you know, if he
had was able to continue his career. You think about,
of course the tragedies that happened, you know, in society,
(01:33):
and you know unfortunately with with drugs and so forth.
You know, you see that happen, and that may pop
into your mind again about just how sad a story
that was that he that that he passed away, you
know because of a drug you know, overdose or a
drug situation.
Speaker 1 (01:49):
So uh, you.
Speaker 3 (01:51):
Know, so whenever those things pop up, So it's not
a time I think any year that goes by if
you don't think of many and just he stays with.
Speaker 1 (01:59):
You right now. You played in d c U.
Speaker 2 (02:04):
So I don't know how much there was intercompetition between
you know, it was a strictly summer summer pickup games
where you first saw Lan, uh five Star camp. Whe
was the first time you really saw Lan played against them,
you know, got an known well.
Speaker 4 (02:19):
The first time.
Speaker 3 (02:20):
You know, of course, you know I ended up you
know five Star basketball campus one and then two would
be you know, we were on the we were on
the Capitol Classic team together, you know, so we played
on that team together actually came out with co MVPs
and it was a great celebration because that's where they
take the DC area's best basketball players and they play
(02:41):
against the All Americans from all over the country. And
so of course to win that game against all the
All Americans from all over the country is a big
deal in our city.
Speaker 4 (02:49):
And we were able to win that game, and we
shared the MVP, and so that was something that was special.
Speaker 3 (02:55):
We were supposed to play each other that same season,
but the game got canceled because the snow, and so
we didn't get a chance to.
Speaker 4 (03:02):
Play against each other and during our senior year, which
is unfortunate. But but definitely those are some of us,
some some real fond mary, some good times.
Speaker 1 (03:10):
Right.
Speaker 2 (03:11):
Any play in particular in the you know, against any
big name player in the uh Capitol Classic that you
remember when making uh not to.
Speaker 3 (03:20):
Me big time plays, I mean he just I mean,
like See's VP of the game. So uh, he definitely
made a number of plays.
Speaker 4 (03:27):
I can't particularly think of one of this age of
about careers, but he uh, you know, he was phenomenal.
I mean I'm sure he you know, he was just more.
Speaker 3 (03:36):
Than an athlete out there, and he had such a
good touch of good feel, you know, such a soft
jump shot for a guy that was that explosive.
Speaker 4 (03:43):
And so he was a unique player.
Speaker 2 (03:45):
Yeah, now you made an immediate impact that duke, and
Duke was a I think you it was more of
a rebuilding situation when you went there with with with
Tommy and and and and I think Jay was in
that class.
Speaker 1 (03:57):
Allery, I think was in that class.
Speaker 2 (04:00):
He went to a team more veteran team. When when
you saw him as a freshman, you know, maybe early
sophomore as at Maryland, did you did you think, well,
he's deferring to you know, the Ben Colemans and the
Adrian Branches and wait, wait till he really shows what
he can do. What was your thought early on? And
then when did you say, oh, okay, that's the guy
(04:22):
I remember from the cap Classic and from DC.
Speaker 4 (04:26):
Well, I knew he was going to emerge and I
saw him in a Capitol Classic.
Speaker 3 (04:29):
To have that kind of performance on that stage, you know,
told him everything I need to know about him and
how good he could become.
Speaker 4 (04:34):
So it was just a matter of time before he
started to excel at Maryland.
Speaker 3 (04:37):
I mean, the thing about Lenny is the thing I
knew about him was he put a lot of time
on getting better physically and on his skill, on his
game and shooting.
Speaker 4 (04:46):
I mean, he he was a guy. He went to
the gym, He wanted to work.
Speaker 3 (04:48):
You know, I'd always knew that about him, even though
I didn't always see him, because you can always tell
the players that put that kind of time in you
could watch their game grow and develop. So like I
saw it grow and develop from where he came from
high school, all sudden he's sharing an m v P
of the Capitol Classic. I do the same thing was
going to apply. He kept that same work in.
Speaker 4 (05:05):
College for.
Speaker 1 (05:07):
You know, everybody talks about the game against Carolina.
Speaker 2 (05:11):
That was the first year I was on the beat
at the Sun covering him, and and in one of
the other games I remember is the game against Duke.
He had forty one I think at Cameron and and
and I think Keith was even his point guard was
sick that night or back injury or something. And I
remember Coach k saying that was the best performance ever
by a visiting player at Cameron at that time. What
(05:32):
do you have any memories of that night? And I
know Jay talked about it, like, you know, coming back
to the huddle. Basically all the huddle, all the defensive
huddles were about like, Okay, are we going to stop
this guy?
Speaker 1 (05:43):
You know what, what what are we going to do?
Speaker 3 (05:46):
Well, Jay, as institutional memories, he can remember those things
bad than I am, for sure, But you know I
do remember him just having a phenomenal night.
Speaker 4 (05:54):
He was, uh, he was unguardable. I mean, when you
get it going like he got it going, you know,
you know, going to slow him down. I remember that.
Speaker 3 (06:02):
You know, it's very competitive, all being from the same
area of course, you know, so you definitely you definitely,
you know, we.
Speaker 4 (06:08):
Beating him up there.
Speaker 3 (06:09):
Of course they coming back to have a chance to
play us at our place, and so not one to
lose back to back games.
Speaker 4 (06:15):
And so he put on a great performance and I'll
never forget that. Just you know, we we sent everything out,
a number of guys starting him. But you know, as far.
Speaker 3 (06:22):
As his abilities, I mean, like I said, he was
at a stage in his career in his game where
he was he was at he was at the top.
I mean, so he was definitely, uh playing some really
good basketball.
Speaker 2 (06:32):
And what do you remember about the ACA. Yeah, it's
probably something you don't want to remember. But the ACC
championship game in eighty four, Uh, any any any memories
of that? That game and uh, you know obviously that
was almost like, you know, his coming out as a star.
Speaker 1 (06:47):
You know, at ACC tournament.
Speaker 3 (06:49):
I would say exactly what you said that to me.
In the ACC that was his coming out party. I
thought he he played really, really well. He started to
play a way as I mentioned before, you so coming
to Capitol Classic, how I started to just you know
develop and then you see him, you know, having a
year's freshman year of course, like a lot of freshmen
a lot of places, he's figuring it out. And then
(07:10):
he's working hard, he's figuring it out. And then his
sophomore year again he started to excel. And uh, I
think that that game.
Speaker 4 (07:17):
If the championship was, was his coming out party.
Speaker 3 (07:20):
As you just mentioned, I don't think you can put any
better than that. He was terrific. Again, you know, he
started just making play after play. He just like I said,
it was very difficult to guard because he did so
many things, whether it's shooting the ball from the perimeter,
whether it's you know, finishing around the basket, offensive rebounds,
getting out in the lane and running.
Speaker 4 (07:36):
I mean, he just was like I said, he was.
Speaker 3 (07:38):
He was so well rounded as a player and can't
find too many faults in his game.
Speaker 4 (07:43):
And those guys are the hardest ones to defend.
Speaker 1 (07:46):
Yeah, uh, do you have it?
Speaker 2 (07:48):
I mean you were a part of that eighty sixth class.
You were a first round pick of the Spurs. Do
you have any memories of that night? How excited you
guys were, you know, two guys from d see being
tramp picks together and and and and then two days
later hearing the news about you Land had passed.
Speaker 3 (08:09):
Just you know, definitely, you know, I remember us getting
drafted and and and congratulating each other, you know, very happy,
And these are something that you've worked on pretty much.
Speaker 4 (08:16):
It feels like your entire life.
Speaker 3 (08:18):
So to see that dream come true and you be
selected amongst those few players have an opportunity to play
at that level, Uh, it's a cost of celebrations. So
we were very excited, very happy sharing that with each other.
Just the fact that man, congratulations, congratulations, man, good luck
and uh I remember it being that type of conversation.
And then uh, like I said, and two days later.
(08:40):
Now everyone kind of can remember where they were during
that time, and uh, you know, I'm down back in
Carolina at that point in time. I'm actually out fishing,
and uh have a little little radio while I'm out
there fishing, and it comes across the radio that that
Lenny Lenny passed.
Speaker 4 (08:58):
And then first you listen to you like, that can't
be true. I just saw him, you know, forty eight
hours ago or so.
Speaker 3 (09:04):
And uh, they repeating it and they're just everyone's in
shock on the radio talking about it. And I just
got up, of course, you just got up and left
and went back to uh went back home and followed
up with people and you know, it wasn't cell phones
back then.
Speaker 4 (09:17):
Stuff.
Speaker 3 (09:18):
Went back and followed up with people and everyone confirmed that, yeah,
he had passed, and just you know, just remember just being.
Speaker 4 (09:24):
Really in shock. Just how you know, how how life is.
Speaker 3 (09:29):
That's how life works, you know, all of a sudden,
she got in the prime of his you know, with
his abilities and everything in the world ahead of him
to play for and to become a great player at
the next level, and the next day is just gone
and they just you know, feel was shocking.
Speaker 2 (09:44):
We talked about you played with him on the ACC
Barnstorming Tour that earlier that that spring.
Speaker 1 (09:51):
Uh what was that like? What was the Barnstorming Tour like?
Speaker 2 (09:54):
And what was it being a teammate again to bring
back memories of the CAP Classic or obviously that's a
much differ you know format, it's much looser and everything
like that.
Speaker 4 (10:04):
Well, Barmstone was fun.
Speaker 1 (10:06):
It was.
Speaker 3 (10:06):
It was always a great event in the Carolinas where
you'd go play and you play in different different towns
and play against the local you know, fire department, you
know police department, you know, faculty.
Speaker 4 (10:18):
From the high schools and schools and just it was
a fun, fun time.
Speaker 3 (10:23):
It's kind of a celebration of all the ACC players
and so yeah, when he decided to come down and play,
it just made it that much more special to be
able to unite with him in that type of environment
and not.
Speaker 4 (10:33):
Just be competing against them, which we had done before
straight years. So it was a lot of fun.
Speaker 3 (10:38):
Just uh, you know, of course, to show me that
he is, he would you know, he'd go out there
and you know do some amazing things of course during
the games or in the layup lines, and uh, just
you know, just fond memories and but he, like I said,
those are those were just like I said, memories I
throw a j probably can elaborate on them some more
as well, but just just fun times where you know,
(10:58):
your chance to celebrate each other other, celebrate the moment.
Speaker 4 (11:01):
You know, college is winding down.
Speaker 3 (11:03):
For us, a new chapter is about to begin, and
we're kind of having fun, you know, kind of that
in between college and the NBA.
Speaker 2 (11:12):
In terms of you, you got to see through your eyes,
you know, the seasons you played in the NBA, you
saw Michael obviously developed pretty quickly into the player that
legend that he became. You know, when did you ever
think about, you know, man, Len would have been right there.
Lenn would have been right not I say right there
(11:33):
with Michael, but right there as one of the top,
you know, eventually as one of the top players in
the league. Had he gotten that chance, knowing his skills,
knowing his game, is there any doubt that he would
have been considered one of the best players of his era.
Speaker 3 (11:47):
It's no doubt in my mind that he would have been.
I mean, he was, he was. He had the skill
set to be very successful. He shot the ball with
good range. You know, I had a great touch, I
mean around the basket. Nobody could jep with him. I
mean I played prolls some for a decade. He was
still you know.
Speaker 4 (12:02):
Top one percentile of athlete at that level, so that
wouldn't have been an issue for him. He could finish
in the low post. You know, he could defend. I mean,
he was long, he was competitive, He had all the
attributes to be very successful. So I had you know, Mom,
I had no doubt that he'd have been one of
one of the greatest players to play. You had he
had that opportunity.
Speaker 2 (12:22):
Did when you watch the NBA and you know, you
coach college prou so so long, is there any player
in all the time since then that reminds you reminded
you of Len at all, whether it's Zion or I
mean Lebron maybe more passing skills, and I don't want
to put him in that category if he's not, But
(12:44):
any anybody remind you of the Wayland played in his
ear compared to guys now or over the year.
Speaker 3 (12:52):
That's that's a difficult question for me because the game
has evolved so much. I mean, Lenny wasn't you know,
really put it on the floor and do a lot
of dribbles to create his offense. So and a lot
of the players you see nowadays, you know, they had
the ball in their hands for you know, a large
percentage of the time, and they can make whatever plays
they want to make when they want to make it.
You know, Lenny played off of people. You know, he
(13:12):
played off of the guards and played off of guys.
He received it, he shot it, you know, he received
it and you close out, you know, improperly.
Speaker 4 (13:20):
He drove, he ripped him into the basket right away.
Speaker 3 (13:23):
He'd go down going the low post, which they don't
even play down there anymore.
Speaker 4 (13:26):
So if they don't even play up back to the
basket too much anymore.
Speaker 3 (13:30):
So, No, it isn't not anyone that really comes to mind,
Like no, Zion doesn't come to mind.
Speaker 4 (13:35):
Lebron doesn't come to mind. You know, he was unique
in who he was.
Speaker 3 (13:38):
I mean, just like I said, they have that type
of athleticism and they had that type of shooting stroke.
Speaker 4 (13:44):
That combination. I think he would have been successful on
any level he played on. It would he be very
successful now absolutely, because his skill sets will allow him
to do that.
Speaker 3 (13:52):
He could walk out there now because of his ability
to shoot the basketball still with that athleticism then play
making at the basket, he would have a lot of success.
Speaker 4 (13:59):
And it's like he would have done the same thing
during that time.
Speaker 2 (14:03):
Yeah, at Tapscott was talking about his hit for calling back.
You know, when when you and Franklin Frank Ross would
come up to the gym and work out. Len occasionally,
I guess came and played up there. And Agan Branch.
Speaker 1 (14:17):
He said there was a point in time, probably you know,
maybe a.
Speaker 2 (14:21):
Year before he passed away, that that you guys not
not necessarily expressed concern about him, but he would show
up with guys you didn't know, and and and you like,
you know about the guy. Maybe he was just okay guy,
he didn't know, You didn't know what his intentions were
or whatever, whether he was really a friend or just
(14:42):
trying to sort of feed off of Len's celebrity. Was
there every concern in your part that you know, maybe
he was widening the circle too much?
Speaker 5 (14:51):
Uh?
Speaker 3 (14:51):
Well, you know, typically, you know, in our sport, and
we used to go to America and play, and then
he would occasionally come down and.
Speaker 4 (14:57):
Play, that's for sure.
Speaker 3 (14:58):
And uh, you know that was times again because you
get a chance to work out and pete against each
other and pick up ball, which is a total different
type of game than you would during the course of
the season. So that was a lot of fun times
working on skills and trying to get better.
Speaker 4 (15:11):
But ye, absolutely, you know, usually you know, you know,
you know, usually.
Speaker 3 (15:16):
You know, the basketball players kind of you know, hang
with the basketball players, and so you just kind of
just kind of saw that during our time that's kind
of been expanded. Now you watch the players as they've
kind of come up through the nineties and into the
two thousands, you see bigger i won't say lack of
a better world entouragists, but you see bigger groups of
people together ranging from all kind of you know, different
(15:37):
things that they're into, whether it's business, whether it's basketball,
whether it's you know, whatever the you know they choose
to do.
Speaker 4 (15:44):
But yeah, so Lenny would.
Speaker 3 (15:45):
Have a different type of you know, a combination of
players as well as people that maybe weren't you know, players.
Speaker 2 (15:53):
Yeah, was there ever a concern about who he was
hanging out with or were they they were just guys
that you met, h.
Speaker 4 (16:00):
Uh, guys that he knew, guys that he was friends with.
Speaker 3 (16:03):
I mean we didn't know him as well, so I
might have, you know, one way or another, uh to
kind of you know, for me, just guys that he knew,
we didn't really know as well. So uh, but they
were they were his friends and so I know they
wouldn't have been with him if he didn't you know,
he wasn't comfortable around him, right, Okay, Dave, you have some.
Speaker 6 (16:24):
Questions, Yes I do. Thanks again Johnny for taking the time.
Can you go back a little when you were playing
basketball in high school and uh what you were hearing
or thinking seeing or were or were thinking about lenn
at that time? He was he a level above target.
(16:48):
I mean there's a lot of good players. What what
separated him, if anything from other players?
Speaker 4 (16:53):
Uh?
Speaker 3 (16:54):
You know one the thing the thing that I admired,
like like I'm sure you know, Coach TAP's gotta say
this about We were in the gym all the time,
we were working and trying to get better all the time,
and the thing I knew about him, even though I
didn't see him every day, was that's how he was.
And I just always respected guys who really worked on
their craft. I mean, you know when you love the
game and you're passionate about it, you know you're gonna
(17:15):
put whatever time it takes to become.
Speaker 4 (17:17):
Great at it.
Speaker 3 (17:17):
And and I could tell he was doing that because
there wasn't a time I didn't see him getting better
and better.
Speaker 4 (17:22):
You can't improve in this game without the reps about
putting in the time. And so that's the.
Speaker 3 (17:26):
Thing I knew about Lenny was that he had to
have a heck of a work ethic. And you look
at him physically, I mean, you know, looking at him physically,
you know, you could tell that he was now spending
time work on his ball skills, but also you know,
in the weight room and so forth. You could just
tell that he had committed to wanting to be a
great player. And I have a great deal of respect
for guys who, whatever profession they choose, when they, you know,
(17:46):
attack it that way because they attacking it with a passion.
Speaker 1 (17:49):
Because he was cool, quick, and he was so old
or from because.
Speaker 6 (17:56):
Even Don made a reference a little earlier to some
of the people he may have been hanging out with
more basketball players. Do you remember meeting Brian Tribble, and
if so, did you have any thoughts about Brian or
what was there any concern that he was hanging out
with this guy?
Speaker 4 (18:11):
Well, of course I'm sure that, Madam.
Speaker 3 (18:13):
Before you know, probably between pick up ball down America
University or barnstorming somewhere, I'm sure we'd probably run across
each other.
Speaker 4 (18:23):
I would venture to say we had.
Speaker 6 (18:25):
Did you remember having anybody having any concerns about him?
Speaker 3 (18:30):
I don't remember anybody really discussing that. You know that
they didn't come out. No one came to me and
said they had a concern about him at that time.
Speaker 6 (18:36):
Okay, there was a We talked a bit about barnstorming.
I write this in the book. I talked with Chris Washburn.
You remember who Chris was, obviously, absolutely yeah, And Chris
tells me the story and I write in the book,
and he recounted that story for the podcast series. In
the interview last week, how Lynn introduced him to cocaine
on the barn Storming tour in eighty six. He was
(18:59):
with a guy named Charles Logan and they locked on
his door to bet one in the morning, and Chris
said he was in bed and he had never used
cocaine before, but it was len bias. He looked up
to lend like an idol, and he said, I'm not
going to turned Lend down.
Speaker 5 (19:12):
This went on for four hours.
Speaker 6 (19:14):
He said he missed his class the next morning and
he never either. You're probably aware of what happened to
Chris with cocaine. Do you remember Charles Logan? Do you
remember hearing anything about him? Because he's passed away, he
can't confirm it. Uh, And that's was there any indication
at that time that you saw Lens sorta even on
the trip, if you saw him enough that there was something,
(19:35):
you know, where's he going or what's he doing kind
of stuff?
Speaker 3 (19:38):
No, not at all, you know, unlike you know Chris,
we never stayed in the places we bonsed on him,
so we would always drive in, play the game, and
then drive right out. So I never like stayed around
hung out at the hotel we played. I'm headed right back.
All the games in Carolina.
Speaker 5 (19:53):
Oh, let's be the point.
Speaker 4 (19:54):
Longest drive is going to be the probably.
Speaker 3 (19:56):
The longest drive would be askedal it was going to
be three and a half hours right after games.
Speaker 4 (19:59):
Oh, I just head back and go sleep them on bed.
Speaker 5 (20:01):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (20:02):
Yeah.
Speaker 6 (20:02):
The the the gentleman who who ran the the tournament.
Speaker 5 (20:07):
We interad him last week.
Speaker 6 (20:08):
He telling great stories about how interactive Lynn was with
people down there, and how he how he was so
engaging with the people, how he would stay longer than
anybody else to sign autographs and and and did you
see some of that? And if you did, what what
do you recall from those after those games? If he
was doing anything that sort of set him apart from
anyone else.
Speaker 4 (20:28):
So he was, That's who he is. I mean, you
know he you know he was.
Speaker 3 (20:31):
I mean he was, like I said, he had gotten
to a point in his career where he developed and
worked really hard to become a great, great player. And
the thing that that did you admire about him is
that he always stayed the same from the standpoint of
you know, with people. You know, he was always it
doesn't surprise, but he was good with people that that
he signed autographs as long as they wanted, or he
would talk to people, you know, if they came by
(20:52):
him and they wanted to, you know, ask a question
or something.
Speaker 4 (20:54):
I don't I would never see him.
Speaker 3 (20:56):
I could never see him saying no to an autograph,
and I could never see him.
Speaker 4 (20:59):
Not giving one some time that that may have come
by and wanted to speak to him. This is not
who he was. And uh and and yet I don't
I didn't see him change that as as he was
continuing to move forward with success.
Speaker 6 (21:10):
How did you see his death affect a couple perspectives
young basketball players in the DC area?
Speaker 5 (21:18):
Is where you grew up? You grew up in d C. Correct?
Speaker 6 (21:21):
Ye, yes, young players in the area after he died. Also,
you went under play pro ball after he died. Did
you see any impact on players within the NBA? Well,
this happened to Lend. We have to be careful it
could happen to us. And was there sort of was
there more of an emotional impact, a personal kind of
(21:42):
sadness that you saw within the DC community from it?
Speaker 5 (21:45):
Then?
Speaker 3 (21:47):
Definitely a sadness in the DMV. There was definitely a
sadness in that community. Uh, you know, probably still is
to be quite frank, I mean just you know, just
think about who he would have become. I think everyone
carries that, you know with them and just said that
that it ends in such a tragedy, so his life.
But yeah, same thing with being the NBA. I think
(22:08):
it was something that people thought about. I can't recall
any particular stories, but for sure. I mean, you know,
every year of the anniversary of what happened comes up,
whenever year it's the draft, you know, that story comes
up and relive it. So definitely everyone you know, as
I think had an effect on everyone. And I will say,
you know, I think it goes you know, unknown, or
(22:32):
maybe it doesn't. But I mean, how many lives do
we think he saved by would happen? I mean, I
think sometimes we overlook the fact that, you know, a
generation of players that have come behind him. I mean,
who knows that that would have happened to one or
more of those players if it hadn't been for the
story of len Bias.
Speaker 4 (22:49):
So, you know, talking.
Speaker 3 (22:50):
About leaving the legacy, I mean is like you said,
it's a broad legacy.
Speaker 4 (22:53):
And that's part of this legacy too.
Speaker 3 (22:55):
I think he saved a lot more lives that will
never know because of history and the fact that we
kept his story alive, the way that Desbon kept alive.
Speaker 6 (23:04):
We in that thought patem we present the title of
the book is born ready a mixed legacy of lend
biased because it is there are people whose lives were saved,
There are peoples whose lives were greatly altered, and that's
you're putting.
Speaker 5 (23:15):
That, you're really capturing that very well. Uh left to
Grissel told me a story about how when he came
out of when I.
Speaker 6 (23:21):
Talked to him for the book a year or so
before the book came out, he was coming out of
a church in Virginia Beach and a man walked up
to him who he didn't know, and said, you coached
Grisel And he said yes, Diam. He said, did you
coach Len Bias? He said yes, I did. And he said, well,
Len Bias saved my life. He said, what do you mean?
He said, when Len died, I was addicted to cocaine.
(23:42):
I lost my job, I lost my family, all that.
And he said, I stopped using when Len died.
Speaker 1 (23:49):
Did you? Uh?
Speaker 6 (23:51):
We did it have any maybe not that dramatic, any
personal impact on you to stay away from drugs or
any of your friends say, whoa, hey, Len died. That's
the big red light to stop science. I got to
be more aware of this.
Speaker 4 (24:04):
Uh no, not in my personal life. You know, that's
not something that I was really interested in.
Speaker 3 (24:09):
But it did propel me to when I give like
speeches you know, you speak to a lot of basketball
camps and I always, you know, have a part about
drugs in there because of that.
Speaker 4 (24:19):
I think that's there strictly because of Lenny.
Speaker 3 (24:21):
I wouldn't have used that story and different things of
that nature if it hadn't been for what happened to him.
So pretty much every time I'll give my you know,
so with COVID, we may not be able to have
a camp again this year, but if I had it,
you know, I speak to my kids again, and every
time I give my lecture, I always have a portion
of it about about staying away from drugs.
Speaker 4 (24:42):
And I think it's a direct result of what happened
to Lenny.
Speaker 6 (24:45):
Do you actually tell part of Len's story or make
a reference to lend or it's more of a general
kind of more of.
Speaker 3 (24:50):
A general I don't really use I don't reference Lenny
in the stories, you know, I just kind of, you know,
tell tell my story. But it's I know it's because
of memory of my memory of Lenny is why I
do that. I probably, you know, doing a basketball camp
typically it's you know, about a lot of things you
can help young people growing. But I made a point
to always talk about drugs, and I think that's directly
(25:11):
related to Lenny.
Speaker 6 (25:12):
Dave Dickerson, who was on the team when Lenn died.
You may remember Dave from being a Maryland player. Yes,
he later coached at Tulane, and he tells he was
a Tulane during Hurricane Katrina. And he tells me a
story that I write about in the book that if
you recalled Chulane had to go to I think it
was Texas, A and m They had to pretty much
uproot their lives.
Speaker 5 (25:32):
Everything was very distorted and very unsettled.
Speaker 6 (25:36):
And he told the story of Land and his connection
to being part of that story as a way to
inspire his players.
Speaker 5 (25:47):
Look, this is a challenge. This is going to be hard.
I work through this. If I work through this, you
can work through this.
Speaker 6 (25:54):
You your college coaching career, have you told his story
in that perspective?
Speaker 5 (26:00):
Have you used him at all talking to some of
your players?
Speaker 4 (26:03):
I definitely have, definitely with my teams.
Speaker 3 (26:05):
You know, I can't say every team, but I definitely
have used this story about the important of staying away
from drugs, understanding that the harm it can cause, and
how this is what happened to one man in his life,
and so you know, most of them because of like
I said, it comes around every year right after the
draft that most of them have heard of them.
Speaker 4 (26:22):
So when I start telling him that somebody I.
Speaker 3 (26:25):
Played against, we played at the same time, you know,
pick up ball, and and so when I was telling
those stories, it kind of, I think, brings everything, you know,
you know, it kind of brings it kind of crystallizes
it for all of those guys because they realize, like that, hey,
you actually knew that guy that we kind of only
heard stories about.
Speaker 4 (26:41):
So you know, you know, it gives me.
Speaker 3 (26:43):
A little bit of credibility when it comes to like
trying to explain to those guys important that they need
to make sure that they don't you know, you know,
you know, going down the path that could put them
in a position where you know, you never know that
you don't you know, you can end up dying off
of something from something like that.
Speaker 6 (27:00):
When you were playing against him in college, did you
ever step back and say, whoa man, how did he
do that? Was there any moments of marvel because you
were a player of the year, I mean, and you
were as established, if not more established, as a basketball
player as level but were there any moments when either
I wish I could do that, or or boy, look
what he just did.
Speaker 5 (27:20):
I don't know if I could ever do that.
Speaker 4 (27:21):
No, absolutely, I just think about times, you know.
Speaker 3 (27:24):
I remember we were playing pickup ball, like a University
of Maryland one time when I was home, and uh,
you know, and they threw him a really really bad pass,
and like one of these passes that you really shouldn't
be able to catch him do anything with, he still
caught it and managed to take the.
Speaker 4 (27:40):
Ball all the way to the room and dunket while
he was still in the air.
Speaker 3 (27:42):
And I'm just looking around, and I think I was
telling them what I was talking to one of the players.
I forget it was man man Keith Gavin to one
of the guys, and I recall it correctly. It was like, well,
we like to throw him back, you know, bad passes,
because those make them, you know, the best you know
dumps for them, because he's able to still catch him
and do stuff that no one else could do with
the basketball and and that and that's right.
Speaker 4 (28:03):
I mean, he was.
Speaker 3 (28:04):
So like I said, he was such a such a
gifted athlete to go along with his skill set that
I just made it was It was fun to watch
plays like that that you knew that no one else
could do.
Speaker 6 (28:15):
When you think of your history with the theory of basketball,
as the college player of the year, as a professional player,
college coach, and you think of all the impactful stories
that have happened in basketball or in sports during your
lifetime and at the level that you competed in coach,
does any story have compared is it comparable an impact?
Speaker 5 (28:38):
Uh? How he died? What is it the society?
Speaker 6 (28:42):
The grong you said, you think it still had earlier,
It's still had some kind of an impact in the in.
Speaker 5 (28:48):
The area today.
Speaker 4 (28:49):
It really does.
Speaker 5 (28:50):
Imagine.
Speaker 4 (28:52):
I'm sorry, I don't think there's any story that has
as much impact as that story.
Speaker 2 (28:57):
Uh.
Speaker 4 (28:58):
It was a tragedy.
Speaker 3 (28:59):
I mean, what happened, no matter what some of the
other stories may possess, you know, the fact that this
man died from what happened in that story, Uh, you know,
just it's very rarely does that happen, and uh, you
know in my lifetime anyway, And so absolutely that's that's
the number one story. And uh, there's some great lessons
(29:20):
within that story. I think that, uh that we can
take from and that a lot of people have taken
from as you mentioned before, mhm.
Speaker 6 (29:27):
And we can wrap it up with this un the
sun has something else you you make.
Speaker 5 (29:30):
You mentioned a big.
Speaker 6 (29:32):
Part of his legacy is it changed a lot of
lives in the positive way, kept them wasting drugs or whatever.
Speaker 5 (29:38):
Is that his most important legacy? Do you think?
Speaker 2 (29:41):
Uh?
Speaker 4 (29:43):
I think it's right up there.
Speaker 3 (29:44):
I think, you know when I when I think about him,
and I think about what could have happened during that time,
and and you know afterwards, you know, I just I
just had that that gut feeling, especially having played you know,
beyond college, that that he's that he saved a lot
of lives by what happened.
Speaker 4 (30:00):
I think the fact that you.
Speaker 3 (30:02):
Could see this strong, talented, you know, just personable man,
you know, succumb to drugs the way he did and
die from him, I think everyone came to realization that
none of us are you know, what's a good word
for we?
Speaker 4 (30:18):
You know, we all aren't. None of us are basically invincible.
Speaker 3 (30:24):
You know, we all are in a position where we
you know, we're not invincible. And I tell my players
that to this day, I say, you know, you guys
walk around you like your Superman, but you know, we
really aren't. We all are vulnerable and we all can
succumb to something. And again, you know, you think about
linear situation because it's no more powerful explosive person and
(30:46):
player than he was during his time, and he was
still in his early twenties, and so if that can
happen to him, it can happen to anybody.
Speaker 5 (30:53):
I apologize. I did think of one more as you're talking.
Speaker 6 (30:57):
When you were playing in the NBA was right after
Lynn died, and there's a lot of speculation, and I
think some of it's valid because we'll never know that
he could have been the rivalry to Jordan, that magic
was the bird, that that uh Wilt was to go Russell,
did you hear any talk in the NBA that man,
(31:18):
what would have been like if len Bias would have
been playing now? Did was there any kind of dreamy
dreamy what could have been kind of.
Speaker 4 (31:27):
Discussion kind of like what you're saying now.
Speaker 3 (31:29):
I mean everyone was, you know, wondering what type of
NBA player, what type of impact he would have had?
Uh And the same thing you said about the rivalry
with Jordan is you know, you know everyone.
Speaker 4 (31:40):
Thought but that that could have been a great rivalry
that that never came to pass.
Speaker 3 (31:44):
Uh, absolutely, that that kind of was floating around out there.
I can't say who and what, but that kind of
thing was floating around people and and uh and and
it's it makes sense to to think like that. And uh,
you know, because he was, you know, he was on
track to become a great, great player, and it was
just a function of you know, how far would he get?
But but you knew he was on the right path.
(32:04):
And uh and Jordan of course had already started. It
made that turn, and of course we see where he
is now the greatest player.
Speaker 4 (32:11):
To ever play our game. And uh, so you know,
you know how good was that playing in college basketball
in the ACC back in the mid eighties and you
got Jordan, you got Lenny and the cast of other players.
Speaker 3 (32:22):
So it was, uh, it was a phenomenal time. And unfortunately,
you know, we didn't get to see a carry on
to the NBA for for who you know, which which
had been some amazing you know decade or a decade
or so of those two guys, you know, being able
to play at an amazing level.
Speaker 5 (32:38):
Johnny, thank you. Don Do you have any.
Speaker 1 (32:40):
Follow up Good, Thanks Johnny Good, Sean.
Speaker 7 (32:45):
Len bias A Mixed Legacy. The interviews was produced by
Daveon Grady and Don Marcus. Len bias A Mixed Legacy
is distributed by the Eighth Side Network.
Speaker 2 (33:00):
It
Popular Podcasts
United States of Kennedy
United States of Kennedy is a podcast about our cultural fascination with the Kennedy dynasty. Every week, hosts Lyra Smith and George Civeris go into one aspect of the Kennedy story.
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com