Len Bias: A Mixed Legacy | The Interviews: John Salley

Dave and Don interview 4x NBA Champion John Salley who recalls his memories of his friendship with Len Bias from high school through the NBA Draft. John also discusses the impact Len would have had on the NBA and the actual impact his death had on the players and the league.

 

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:07):
Before we talk about your initial connection to Len, we
have two main questions we want to ask everybody. First,
why is Len still important today in your mind? Why
is he an important story? Why is his Why is
Len Bias important today?

Speaker 2 (00:23):
Well, Lem Bias is important today, not just for his basketball.
He's important because he literally took the bullet no pun
intended he did. I've never ever had anything to do
with cocaine ever. I've never been curious about it, but

(00:43):
I'm definitely not curious about it because of what happened
to my friendly buyers. It would be the dumbest thing
in the world for me to say, well, I've never
done it, you only live once, Let's try it. That's
the dumbest thing I could possibly do. So, in a word,
his death is made him like a modern He literally

(01:05):
shows athletes you don't have to be a part of
pop culture, you don't have to be a part of
the drug culture. You can have everything in the world
going for you. For you to think you want to
do something that's as silly as snorting one line of cocaine,
you should know better. And if you want to know
an example, what will happen to you? This may happen

(01:27):
to you. So Lenny's important because he can show you
that he can be on top of the world one
second and then not a part of the world next.

Speaker 1 (01:38):
Do you find yourself spreading that message in any way
to anybody, young people, friends, if they need it or not.
Do you find that your impositions to spread that message?

Speaker 2 (01:50):
Yeah, I'm in a Lenny. Lenny changed everything for me.
I'm one of those people that used to believe, Hey,
you try it once, right, do that?

Speaker 3 (02:00):
So don't listen to anybody else. Have your own experiences.

Speaker 2 (02:05):
After the death of UnBias, which was the day after
one of the happiest days of my life, I understood
how short lived things were. I understood life is fleeting.
I totally got it. Never have to push me in
a position to wonder or do it again. I put

(02:29):
my nose to the ground and I try to become
the best play I could possibly be. I do have fun.
I didn't smoke a joint until I was thirty six
years old and I was playing for the Los Angeles Lakers,
and it was a month before we won the championship
and I only had two hits. That's how long it
took before I even smoked weed. I put nothing bad

(02:52):
in my body except food, and because back then I
was still eating flesh. Now I'm to Roy vegan, but
I wouldn't. I was, so he kept me without him
being here on the straight now definitely.

Speaker 1 (03:11):
Do you find that you passed that message along to
other people in any certain situations or is all Is
it all a personal thing to you?

Speaker 2 (03:17):
No, it was. I would talk to some kids and
I would explain the greatness of Lenny Bias. I would
talk about how much taller and bigger Lenny was than
Michael Jordan when we were younger. I would talk about
how Larry Bird thought he was going to be able
to take breathers because he finally got Lenny Bias. I

(03:41):
knew that this guy was going to be the guy,
and I wasn't afraid of him. I'm not afraid of anybody,
but I wasn't afraid of because, you know, I kind
of shut him down a lot.

Speaker 3 (03:51):
I just thought, I mentioned that you can do the
research yourself, you know.

Speaker 1 (03:55):
I think there's a I think there's a lot of
video of that.

Speaker 2 (03:57):
Yeah, there's a lot of it. Yeah, Because I'd been
with him so long and we were at five Star
Basketball camp from fifteen and all the way through working
working as at camp counselors. So I've been around. I've
been around the guy while I always I always. I

(04:19):
told him, I said we should go to college and
play together, and we were going to go to Maryland,
Me him, Johnny Dawkins, We're going to be the Big three.
Before Lebron even knew you could do that, I was
doing it in college but left to Giselle. You know,
one of the times he told me the truth. You
got to figure that joke out. He told me that

(04:41):
I would I would have to play behind Ben Coleman,
and I didn't like that. So I, you know, wanted
to stay in the ACC. And Coach Krimage was writing
me handwritten letters, no punctuation, some in some incursives, some
in print. Very psycho. Now him and Coach Feltain were

(05:06):
really great to me. So I thought to be in ACC,
to go to a school that was great and academics
because I was really particular about being a student athlete.
Student first, athletes set second, and Georgia Tech pushes that.
And then Johnny Dawkins said, well, I heard I can

(05:26):
start at Duke. So we all agreed. You know, hey, lady,
you stay in and Johnny Dalks I didn't want to
stay home. It's too much pressure, too many tickets, too
much stuff. So we all picked different places to be
in ACC. And at that time, Maryland was a much
better team than all the rest of us, except you know,

(05:50):
in nineteen eighty three, I'm sorry, yeah, nineteen.

Speaker 3 (05:56):
Eighty three ACC Cha play ACC tournament.

Speaker 2 (06:02):
We went three overtimes and Judge de Tech feat Maryland
and I played probably the best, one of my best
games in college. And mainly so I can talk smack
to let Bias, like, yes, I like winning. There was
my team. But at the end of the game, I
wanted to talk to Mac Deliney. I wanted to be like, yeah,

(06:22):
we got that buck.

Speaker 1 (06:23):
So did you did you bratch up against Leney in
that game? Did you do you play up against him?

Speaker 2 (06:30):
No?

Speaker 3 (06:30):
We had sometimes in parts of it. Yes.

Speaker 2 (06:34):
Uh. My main objective was to give Bancomb into business
and smile at left to dusel. Uh. That's that's what
my job was, is to be like, you made a mistake.
You shouldn't have told you boy that. But by that
time we were in New York City, so you know,
the sirens are part of you guys may have birds there,

(06:56):
we have sirens. Uh fifteen minutes, I may add. So. Yeah,
So I once in a while went against him. I
think it was really me going against Ben Komen.

Speaker 1 (07:12):
Take us back to and we'll go sort of go
through the progression. Take us back when you met Did
you meet Lenny at five Star?

Speaker 2 (07:17):
Yeah? I met Lenny at five Star basketball camp. One
of the craziest things was we were seniors and going
into our senior year in high school, and I was
a five star player and Lenny was, and so they
had us in a cabin. They had the rest in
this other cabin. But the waiters. They call us the

(07:41):
waiters because even though we were the top players, we
had to serve all the other campers. That was a
way of Godfinkels saying, well, I'm building showing you guys humility.
In other words, he didn't want to hire any waiters,
that's how lazy he was. So it was, it was.
It was a great lesson. My mother was a coacher

(08:03):
caterer here in Brooklyn, so I already knew how to
do the serving part. You know, I worked, say to
dinner is my whole life. So it's about dinners my
whole life. So I already knew what that was, and
I didn't feel it was a humbling situation. Work is work,
and even though we had the better rooms. But then

(08:27):
Godfigel decided, Hey, Sally biased. He called me, Sally, you
guys sit right here and make sure none of the
campers go back to the camp go back to the
cabins to make sure everybody stays here. Now, I'm a
security guard, but all my boys was sitting up in
the stands and I couldn't barely see the game. So

(08:50):
I said, Lenn, is big, no one's going I said,
you got this right, Lenny? You said yeah, yeah, go
sit with your boys, and I go and I sit.
The game is over, and all I hear is we're Sally.
He goes. I asked you to do one thing to
see if you would do it. You couldn't do that
one thing, but Lenny knew how to follow instructions. In essence,

(09:10):
he took away my fire star, gave me four and
a half put somebody else in my position, and I
vowed to get him back for that too. I did,
but Len Lenn was like, I try to cover for you,
I said, you went to the bathroom.

Speaker 3 (09:26):
I said, you did this.

Speaker 2 (09:28):
So I've been with Lenny since then, and that's when
we had Billy Thompson was the number one play in
the country to some people, and Len Bias said, I'm
going against Billy today and I'm going to destroy him.
Lenny Bias was busting Billy Thompson's but so bad that

(09:48):
Billy pumped faked. Billy went in the air and he
cut Lenny's head and Lenny had to go get stitches.
I said, did you go into town to get those stitches?
He said, not before. I took Billy Thompson to town,
every skin out going to realize who I am. Now
that's exactly what his mentality was.

Speaker 1 (10:05):
Was Buzz Peterson tell us the stories re memories of
land at five Star playing against Michael Jordan's Yeah, what
do you remember about those two matched up?

Speaker 2 (10:19):
I didn't go to that camp, that was. I missed
that camp because Lenny had gone a year before me.

Speaker 1 (10:26):
Oh that's right, okay.

Speaker 2 (10:27):
I think you got that picture in your book too, right,
Michael Jordan yep, and a and a well developed Lenny
Bias who's a year younger. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I'm telling
you he was a man at that age. He was
a man. We were seventeen years old and you can
tell yo, this dude is though Joe.

Speaker 1 (10:47):
Were in your recollection, did a lot of people already
know about him at.

Speaker 3 (10:51):
That point, No, they didn't know about him.

Speaker 2 (10:54):
He's very he was introverted, really quiet, but he would
show up on the court. Never brag adocious, if that
is even a word. He never. He wasn't one of
those people. He would give you the business and that
be it. Like even if you were have chaired. Uh,

(11:16):
he'd be like, calm down, calm down. He didn't like that.
He didn't like all that high fiving jumping around. Calm
it down. He would always see Lenny be like, Yo, chill, chill,
let's win first, you know. With and I don't know,
and I always said this, I don't know if it
was a DC thing because Adrian Dantley same exact way.

(11:39):
He didn't want all the hoop lie. He just wanted
to He didn't want to embarrass people. He wanted to
give you the business and be on so that Lenny
was bigger than that. And then you know, Lenny and
I I don't know if I'm running through, so I'll
let you go. But but that was that was I
would go eighty two going into going into cor happy

(12:01):
that we're both going to the ACC. Me him and Johnny.
I said that wrong, Johnny Dawkins, Lambias and myself. So
one of the things that we did we said, yo,
forget the Big East because you know, Syracuse was brad.
It was all like, yeah, hey, we're coming to get you.

(12:21):
You should be happy. Saint John Louke, count of Second
wanted me, but he didn't want me.

Speaker 3 (12:28):
You know.

Speaker 2 (12:29):
It was all at that whole Upper East Coast mentality,
and the ACC was football, and I remember saying, if
we go and turn this basketball around, we're gonna be
bigger than the Big East. I was right because that
was the year that my friend Lorenzo Charles was playing

(12:50):
for North Carolina State and dunked the ball and won
the championship for NC State. People now had to start
paying attention to the ACC, and I was so happy
to be going into this conference as opposed to the
egotistical people in the Big East. I really didn't like
the mentality, and a lot of people didn't, you know,
thought I was too skinny, or thought, you know, I

(13:13):
don't know, my grades were too good.

Speaker 3 (13:15):
I don't know.

Speaker 2 (13:16):
You know, they used to guys coming in and having
to have tutors in their back pocket, and so I
liked the Georgia Tech.

Speaker 3 (13:23):
I went to a class to visit. I don't to
this day. I couldn't.

Speaker 2 (13:27):
I thought they were speaking French like, I don't know
what they were saying. It was a physics class, and
I told my mother, I said, this is going to
be the most challenging thing I've ever done. But that's
what I rather. I'd rather be challenged than to be
putting classes that put you in remedial English and math
classes and dumbing you down and the ACC I know
Georgia Tech was definitely not about it.

Speaker 3 (13:48):
I know Duke was not about that.

Speaker 2 (13:50):
I know Maryland well, I don't know Maryland, but I
know Duke and Georgia Tech was not really about you
coming in, just being an athlete.

Speaker 3 (13:59):
And I like that.

Speaker 1 (14:01):
Did you keep in touch with Lynn throughout your college
years and if so, did you have any conversations about
him transferring after his freshman year to NC State.

Speaker 3 (14:09):
Do you recall that, yes.

Speaker 1 (14:12):
What did he say to you and what do you want.

Speaker 2 (14:13):
I only remember, well, you know, my thing is that
if you leave, you got to miss the year. So
if you leave, you got to miss the year. And
it's better down here in the South. I'm telling you.
I was kinsensanin it was way better in the South
than being so close to it.

Speaker 3 (14:29):
And I said, Yo, man, it don't snow, I said,
it dislike that.

Speaker 2 (14:34):
I bonically too, it does not snow, I said, And
it's not cold, and the women have more meat on
their body.

Speaker 3 (14:42):
You want to be down south, brother?

Speaker 1 (14:45):
Uh?

Speaker 2 (14:47):
But you know he would have been in a situation
playing not behind Lorenzo Charles, but yeah, behind Lorenzo Charles
by that time.

Speaker 1 (14:56):
Uh.

Speaker 2 (14:56):
And then h Jimmy V he should have gone there
in the first place. But I think the picking of
Maryland the things he probably was promised by the universal
Maryland and you know, it's a fair thing. Leaving home.
I couldn't wait. Like I graduated high school, I think

(15:19):
on a Friday. On a Monday, I was in a
car to Georgia. I was out of here. I was
not going to be a statistic I was not going
to be in the daily news promising basketball player shot
in the head.

Speaker 3 (15:30):
Now that wasn't happening.

Speaker 2 (15:31):
I was getting out of this mess and going down
and starting my new life. My mother couldn't say, my house,
you gotta do it my way. Would you leave my house,
you do it your way. I could not wait to
get out of her apartment. And that's exactly what I did.
And I came back to visit I think four times
in four years. That was it for four days at

(15:54):
a time. I was not trying to be here. So
I do remember that I thought I thought he felt.

Speaker 3 (16:03):
It was too close to home.

Speaker 2 (16:05):
He wasn't.

Speaker 3 (16:05):
He wasn't growing. But I would stay in contact with
him all time.

Speaker 2 (16:10):
Like I got in trouble a couple of times at
Georgia Tech because I had teammates who with snitches better
known as bitches. But I would after we played Maryland,
everybody go to sleep. I'm out. I'm on the University
of campus with Lenny, and no one is saying anything

(16:32):
to me wrong because I'm with Lenny. And I would
always be with Lenn. And then I'm gonna just speed
up through. We were at nineteen eighty five. We were
in Hawaii, and we beat him in Hawaii. We we
won in Hawaii, Hawaii tournament, and I played really well

(16:52):
against him because I'm so much, so comfortable playing against Lenny.
And in the summertimes, I don't know if it was
a lead. I do know it's illegal, but the university,
I mean, but Boston Celtics would have us come to
their camp and they say we were counselors and they
would pay us one hundred and seventy five dollars.

Speaker 3 (17:14):
And I don't remember seeing.

Speaker 2 (17:15):
Any kids, but I remember playing and uh, we was
in and we were playing against grown men, so I
guess that was them checking us out.

Speaker 3 (17:25):
Mike Brown was there as well.

Speaker 2 (17:29):
But then that's when you know, Red came and whisker
and whispered in my ear and said, Sally, I'm going
to take you. You're going to be a Celtic. I know,
your whole life you wanted to be a Celtic. And
then after my junior year, he said that I was
the number one pick and they put that in the
paper and everybody was on me. And he was so
smart because it was taking eyes as many eyes as

(17:51):
he could away from Lenny.

Speaker 3 (17:54):
So well, had you heard it?

Speaker 1 (17:57):
Had you heard of that time? That how passionate? What
was about Lenny?

Speaker 2 (18:01):
Yeah? We were, we started going. We started going to
Boston in Massachusetts. Our junior uh. He went his end
of the Southball. I went my junior year, going into
my senior year. Lenny had been the year before too,
And I mean as I kind of met Kevin McHale

(18:22):
at this camp. And when I went to visit, you
know this one lawyer told me. I mean I was
allowed in the Celtic black room. I literally thought I
was going to be a Celtic. So after this all happened,
we go and I'm warming up and I see Red

(18:43):
Aback and I go over to him because none of
the vet to a round. I go, Man, told me,
you were going to take me. You got me wearing
this red white blue I supposed to be the green white.
He goes, Sally, I had to take Come on, you know,
I had to take a let you would have take it.
I go, You're right, I would have taken Lenny. God

(19:04):
rest his soul. But he's Tony Mashenberg became my teammate
on the Toronto Raptors. I followed Tony on social media.
He keeps he he will not let anyone And I'm
glad it's this way. Forget about the greatness of my
friend l Bias, even to the point we would play

(19:24):
Boy All Americans together and they had us situated sit
in different places, and if you see it, I go, no,
I'm sitting next to Lenny.

Speaker 3 (19:32):
I'm standing next to.

Speaker 2 (19:33):
Lenny, and then Johnny Dawkins on us, like we was
not not going to be next to let me And
it was serious. Dale Curry's father, Dale Carry Steph Curry's
father was also a Playboy All American and you know
they can't do things well now it's called illegal. But

(19:54):
they took us to a bar that wasn't a bar,
and Lenny and I sat there and watched these guys
drink like fish and he was like, I'm gonna bust
if we play against any of them. I'm busting mat.
But I already know. Look at that dude's an alcoholic. That
guy right there, you can tell he can drink.

Speaker 1 (20:16):
Sorry, this was why you were still in This is
why you were still in high school.

Speaker 2 (20:20):
This was no when we played Boil Americans going into
our senior year. Yeah, it was. It was cold in Chicago.
Well it's always cold in Chicago, but it was. It was.
It was nippy whenever we took the picture.

Speaker 1 (20:37):
Can you tell when you and Lenn would socialize, what
would you do? What kind of how would it be
fun for you guys?

Speaker 2 (20:45):
One, Since he was quiet, he didn't think he he
didn't think he was particularly handsome. I didn't think so
highly of myself either, but I had a really good
gift of gab, and so we were were mostly quiet

(21:06):
looking at the cute girls. Uh.

Speaker 3 (21:08):
I stood by him because I didn't want him to
be alone, you know what I'm saying.

Speaker 1 (21:11):
Now?

Speaker 2 (21:12):
You know we would talk about man. Yeah, he was.
He was big into making sure his body was cut.
And then going to a senior year, you know, people
started looking out. He had crocodile shoes and as we
would say, shot skin suits and he had a had

(21:33):
a gold rope on his neck and the braik and
the bracelet. You know, he was he was his gear
was looking better, you know what I'm saying. So he
was becoming more and more confident in who he was.

Speaker 1 (21:45):
If we could go on thathing, then I want to.
I'm gonna read after we talked about this, a quote
that Jeff Baxter had about when Len did a shot
against you, and again that Jeff really remembers us, but
we'll get to that. His last year, according to public
test some money. During Tribble's trial Brian Tribble's trial, it
was revealed that Lenz started using cocaine at least a

(22:05):
year before he died. His teammates except for one, have
any recollection of him using cocaine. Uh do you did
you have any concern? Did you? Did you did you
see it? Did you did he talk to you about
it at all?

Speaker 2 (22:22):
The reason I don't believe that is I think Ray
I think what he did with Rayfer is the dope
dealers did it with all of us back in the eighties.
You know they would They would make sure we have
money in our pocket. And the one dope deal I
knew had had a basketball team, so in the summertime,

(22:45):
but after my career, after I finished at Georgia Tech,
we would go to d C and play these games.
I played against that kid Graham that played from Georgetown.
Uh right, we were oh and play these games, and
the dope dealers would better on these games. But I
would leave with three thousand, three thousand dollars for the game,

(23:07):
which was to this day it's still a lot of money.
So I know rayferl probably was taking care of him,
taking you know, buying them clothes or making sure money
was in his pocket, letting them drive his cars.

Speaker 1 (23:18):
Taking care of taking care of Lenny. You're taking care
of who taking care of Letty.

Speaker 2 (23:21):
Taking care of Lenny. I think that's I think that's
the connection with Rayful, the one who supposedly gave the
line of cocaine that wasn't cut with anything that was
pure cocaine.

Speaker 1 (23:31):
You're talking about Rafel Edmond, Yes.

Speaker 2 (23:33):
Sir, okay, So I don't know that for sure, but
I know when you have the dope dealers around you,
that's what they're doing. They make sure and the ball
players are taking care of you know, don't don't getting
away of the ball players. You may hear some money. Man,
you're looking bummy. Go get yourself some clothes. Man. You can't.
You're gonna be a pro man. You can't look like that. Now,
you got to dress the part.

Speaker 1 (23:54):
It's mainly sort of clarify. You're not sure that Len
was getting money from him. You just think he's because
everything he was getting the clothing, yeah, he was.

Speaker 2 (24:03):
Getting it from somewhere, because we both were broken. So
I couldn't get a pair of crocodile shoes until I
graduated and had money to go get them.

Speaker 3 (24:14):
And that's when I got them from Freeman. And I
used to tell them. I used to tell them down
to Freeman.

Speaker 2 (24:19):
As soon as I get my first NBA tech, I'm
calling you, send me these shoes.

Speaker 3 (24:24):
And I didn't know you didn't get your first NBA
check until November.

Speaker 2 (24:27):
There's a lot they don't tell you, so I would
I would only tell you that I would think that
because that's how things were in the eighties. The crack
wars were starting, and in our neighborhoods, the pimps or
the dope dealers got the money, and if they're looking
out for you, there's no gangster causing any problems.

Speaker 1 (24:52):
So to put this in context and time context, if
if if Edmund were actually doing this, this started before
were his senior year or during his senior.

Speaker 2 (25:01):
Year, before a senior year, and he said this is
this is the other thing. The reason I don't believe
Lenny got did cocaine or got high is because he
was so into being in shape, right, like part of
the reason I guess I'm a psycho to this point, now,

(25:22):
is His whole thing was, yeah, man, you know all
these guys want to go to the club. He said,
get your body right, then you can do everything later.
And the fact that that year, I guess that was
October when we were taking the pictures for Playboy all
Americans in Chicago at the Drake Hotel.

Speaker 3 (25:42):
I remember exactly where it was. He was so against alcohol.

Speaker 2 (25:48):
Now it's kind of hard to be okay with cocaine,
but against alcohol. And he was so about, I'm getting
out of here and I'm taking care of my family.
So he was really because I just can't see that
he was dipping and dabvin pleasant.

Speaker 3 (26:04):
I knew his girlfriend, and I know she.

Speaker 2 (26:06):
Wasn't get high, and that's usually what happens when you're
around a girl that gets high.

Speaker 1 (26:10):
Speaking of girlfriend, another thing I'd like you to confirm
if you could, and I write this in the book.
If you read that last section, he apparently has a son.
And there's a woman named Tina Maynard who gave birth
to a boy two weeks after Lenn died, and a
couple of people, a few people have confirmed this. People
in his family of one of his teammates, Phil Nevin,

(26:33):
who wasn't much of a factor on the team, but
he remembers seeing meeting her actually, but no one, none
of his other teammates knew about it. Had you heard
that Lenn had a son or a press or a
woman that and this woman was claiming she was hanging
around his apartment, you know, every now and then, and
saw him use cocaine. So that's another mystery. So that

(26:54):
that's it.

Speaker 2 (26:56):
Now.

Speaker 1 (26:57):
I don't know how much you were talking to him
during his last year a senior in college, but that's
when she became pregnant, I think in September of that year.

Speaker 2 (27:06):
So I thought that, Sorry, now I don't I don't,
I don't know, and I didn't hear that.

Speaker 1 (27:15):
I know.

Speaker 2 (27:15):
Maryland, who was wind up being on BET. What's our
last name?

Speaker 1 (27:21):
Maryland Webb uh Rose was one of has been uh
classifer identified as one of his close girlfriends.

Speaker 2 (27:32):
This one used to be I think that name was.

Speaker 1 (27:38):
Natalie. Would I remember hearing that name?

Speaker 2 (27:42):
Yeah, we talked to him. He was a host of
BT at this start.

Speaker 1 (27:49):
We talked to Miriam Lege who was a very very
close friends and they had a spirituality connection, uh, the
Christianity connection. They talked about their spiritual spirituality a lot.
Did you see that and let as well his spirituality
come out.

Speaker 2 (28:07):
Yeah, he was a god on the court. Brother, he
was a god on the court, God Jesus and the
devil guy there he was. He was the Holy Trinity
on your ass. That's what he was.

Speaker 1 (28:24):
That is one of the best best quotes to be
had for this. That's hilarious.

Speaker 4 (28:32):
Let me ask you just to follow up on Dave's
question about this woman and his son. Do you do
you do you think he would have shared that with
you if fed had you know, or do you think
that there was this like Dave Dickerson, who was a
freshman on that team said, by that point, because he
didn't have the same relationship as you did with Lam,
he said, by the time he was a senior, he said,

(28:55):
he almost had a different you know, it was almost
like he was living in almost like a double life
kind of thing, like he would go, guys wouldn't know
where he was. Did you get a sense at all
that that there was other.

Speaker 2 (29:10):
Things going on?

Speaker 4 (29:11):
Or do you think you would have found out if
he you know, if he had gotten a girl pregnant,
if he if he if he was going to be
a father.

Speaker 2 (29:20):
Yeah, I think I think you're right. He would have
been very quiet about it. He would have been. He
was quiet anyway. And like I said, it was at
a point where all of a sudden, the more and
more popular became, the less ugly he became to so
so many people, Like a lot of people used to,
you know, call him muggy. Too many teeth in his mouth,

(29:42):
he had that big chrome head, looked like a raptor.
You know.

Speaker 3 (29:46):
It's so many things, you know.

Speaker 2 (29:48):
And I snapped all the time, and so I snapped
and make jokes all the time, and he would just
sit and laugh.

Speaker 3 (29:56):
But he was quiet because he was insecure a lot
about his look.

Speaker 2 (29:59):
So imagine the more they're writing about you, and the
more they're telling me how great you're gonna be, and
how much money you're gonna make, girls start seeing you.

Speaker 5 (30:09):
Like.

Speaker 2 (30:09):
Girls don't go for looks. I tell people all the time,
they go for power. Girls are attracted with power. The
more powerful you are, the more attractive you are. So
the more and more power he became, the more people
will write about him, the more they would pat him
on his back and treat him like he was the
next coming. You know that if you haven't had it before,

(30:31):
it's gonna wear art. And I don't think he would
have told anybody that this girl said she was pregnant.
And I don't think the girl would have said anything either.
I'm gonna be honest. You don't want to piss anybody off,
and you, you know, especially say hey, you know, let's

(30:52):
keep this quiet. It's so much quiet, And I think
it wouldn't it wouldn't have benefited her now with social
media people you when they got an ingrown toad then,
So it's entirely different mentality back then, and Lynn would
have been not saying this happened, but the type mentality
had would have been like, hey, chill, you just keep

(31:14):
it like that. We'll find out everything. I take care
of everything, but there's no reason to blow up the spot.
And the girl knowing that too. Also, as my father
told my brother one time, we need to get a test.

Speaker 3 (31:34):
Women lied too. My brother was like, they do interesting.

Speaker 1 (31:40):
Interestingly, the woman tells me that they asked for a
DNA test from the family and they refused, and it
was confirmed by other members of her family, so she
made an attempt, according to her and her family members,
that they wanted a DNA test put the buyers from
me didn't want to do.

Speaker 2 (31:55):
It, so that means one of them would have had
to give their blood up. But his brother winds up
being killed after that as well. Yes, yeah, yeah, so yeah,
and this is funny.

Speaker 3 (32:10):
Well i'll tell you. I'll tell you this one thing.
So I got accused.

Speaker 2 (32:15):
For this girl saying I got her pregnant, and I
just won my second championship. So it's nineteen ninety one,
and it's all over the paper. I'm in New York.
I come back, it's all over the paper. I go
and and I have to deal with it. The baby's born,

(32:38):
I take the DNA test. It's not mine. Paper never
writes it. No one wants to hear that story. Yeah,
good point.

Speaker 3 (32:48):
So it's it's not it's not fair on this side.

Speaker 2 (32:52):
And two, just just because she felt that this was whatever,
if she would be honest and say, how many lovers
did you have while having lovers?

Speaker 3 (33:04):
Why you were love it Lenny? And then she said
one or two that answer as hell, No, I'm not
giving you any DNA. You're just shooting in the dog wishing.

Speaker 2 (33:12):
This is Lenny.

Speaker 3 (33:12):
I don't know. I can't talk for that woman. But
I have this thing.

Speaker 2 (33:17):
I wind up getting the custody of my daughter, that
is my daughter from my mother, and I'm one of
the only men that ever do that. So I have
a thing about people who try to take advantage of
you or try to get a piece of me.

Speaker 1 (33:31):
Fair enough, Okay, Baxter talks about he would you they
were playing you guys, and all right here, so this
is Boxler talking. They were playing against you guys. He
didn't say what year it was. He says, I'll never forget.
We were playing Georgia Tech. I believe it was a baseline.
I was believe it was the baseline, and it was.

(33:52):
He was in a shooting right hand and John Sally
came to block and he was near his right hand.
Lenny switched to his left hand and shot with his
left hand. Red Orbach took his hat off and threw
it and they had to stop the game because it
went on the floor. It was the craziest thing.

Speaker 2 (34:09):
Yeah, see this is I was glad back and said
that I was so knowing everything because you know, when
you watch Lenny. Just to let you guys know, I'm
not bragging, but I won one on one at fire star,
and people were wondering how you would do that one
because you're only allowed to take three dribbles and we

(34:30):
knew fundamentals.

Speaker 3 (34:32):
But and coach Krimins came to recruit.

Speaker 2 (34:35):
He said, one of the things I saw you do
wasn't you're on the left hand side, you did a
left hand layer and on the right hand side you
did right hand layer. Lenny would talk about being able
to use both hands, being able to drink, dribble, play defense, jump, shoot,
hit a foul shot, he said, hit him, hit a
foul shot.

Speaker 3 (34:55):
It's free. I mean, he was so like being able
to do anything.

Speaker 2 (35:00):
You gotta be able to do everything as a ballplayer
to call yourself a total ballplayer. So what I remember
that one move? No, but I do know he can
shoot what he was able to shoot with both hands
and that was important to him to not be stopped.

Speaker 1 (35:17):
Okay, barn Storming tour. Were you on the tour with him?

Speaker 2 (35:21):
Yeah?

Speaker 1 (35:22):
Okay, what are your fun memories of that trip?

Speaker 3 (35:25):
I didn't get paid enough. I was knock Carolina.

Speaker 2 (35:29):
I remember we had one with Mark where Mark Price
went to one and Lenny was like, yo, man, you
can make like thirty thousand dollars on this. They didn't
want to pay me, No, thirty thousand dollars. They gave
Lenny all the day our money. That's what I remember
he recalling.

Speaker 1 (35:46):
Do you recall how much he made that that during
that tour? Did you tell you I.

Speaker 3 (35:51):
Think he was making seventy game?

Speaker 1 (35:56):
Wow?

Speaker 2 (35:57):
Yeah? Can you imagineeteen eighty six? Seventy guys in NBA
wasn't making that regularly in games? You know what I'm saying.

Speaker 1 (36:06):
Did he tell you that or he just's what you're guessing.

Speaker 2 (36:09):
I'm guessing I got thirty five hundreds, okay, and not
that he was that much better than me. Now I'm joking,
but I think he was. But I would think that
Lenny was getting at least above five thousand.

Speaker 3 (36:25):
I would say seventy five.

Speaker 1 (36:27):
Mike Sumner, who ran the Bone Storming tour, tell some
pretty good stories about Hewlen interacted with the fans and
the and the people, and how much fun and how
relaxing it was. Do you recall him interacting very comfortably
with the fans and staying after and sunning autographs things
like that that took.

Speaker 2 (36:46):
Mike explains, well, I think yes, because I think That's
mainly the reason I get so many accolades to this
day about being a nice guy is we both love
Doctor J. And they say Doctor J would not leave
to he signed the last autograph and did the last interview.

(37:08):
And I think that was another thing when we would
hear guys not going to say any names. Patrick Ewing
doesn't like signing autographs or being around people. Uh, Lorenzo, Yeah,
you know, so I hear and I didn't like that.
I think I think it's disrespectful. At that point, it

(37:29):
can't hurt you, and it only helps you when people
want to pat you on the back and tell them
you bought them joy where that Hey, I know John
Thompson got into those guys heads, but that's that's the
Big East for you. A bunch of assholes.

Speaker 1 (37:46):
Uh, this will be an interesting segway. Then Chris Washburn
tells us that Lenn introduced him to cocaine on the
barn Storming tour. Len wasn't on. Chris wasn't on the tour.

Speaker 2 (37:55):
But I can stop, I can stop you right here.
Not true. Chris Washburn is a liar. Chris Washburn had
been doing drugs since high school. Chris Washburn was at
Laurenberg Prep. The reason I noticed because Gil Reynolds, who
was my summer league coach here with the Vanguard Oilers,
always wanted me to go into Laurenberg Prep. Laurenberg Prep

(38:18):
was a school was for kids who got in trouble
or wasn't the greatest at school, and so it was
keeping him on the straight. Now, now, Len Bias and
I are outside of the Grand High Hotel here in
New York City on Lexington and forty second Street, not
going anywhere, just watching people, people watching. We didn't see

(38:40):
Chris Washburn getting out of his car with some girl
and he was already high.

Speaker 3 (38:47):
This is the night before the draft.

Speaker 2 (38:49):
And he didn't say anything that Lenny like, hey, Lenny,
come to me, not at all because we didn't know
Chris Washburn.

Speaker 3 (38:56):
We didn't know him well.

Speaker 2 (38:57):
So maybe the cocaine he was has a thing to
do with memory, because that's not how it happened. Ledby
has had nothing to do with introducing Chris Waspurg, who
was at North Carolina State.

Speaker 3 (39:13):
In this in cocaine.

Speaker 2 (39:14):
It's funny that people that get high say that I
was introduced to cannabis. My brothers had done it for
so long, sould it, cut it, put it together, grinded everything.
They stay away from this, focus on your on your job,
and I go all the way through my job, retired,

(39:35):
come back, about to win my fourth championship, and a
girl introduced me to weed.

Speaker 3 (39:40):
Cocaine is a female drug.

Speaker 2 (39:44):
So I've heard. It's not a male drugs for all
those guys out there listening. It causes a record dysfunction.

Speaker 3 (39:51):
It causes that. It makes girls happier. So I just thought,
I let you know.

Speaker 1 (39:57):
That, appreciate that insight. Uh well, just to clarify, you
knew for a fact that Chris was using drugs in
high school. Yeah, how do you know that?

Speaker 3 (40:10):
Because everybody that went to Laurenburg Prep was a problem.

Speaker 2 (40:13):
Remember that's the same school that the Goat went to,
the high jumper from here from home.

Speaker 3 (40:22):
The high jumper, the kid that can dump the goat
that I just escaped my mind.

Speaker 1 (40:29):
Yeah, yeah, done, done, okay, right man, Right, he went
to Laurenburg Prep.

Speaker 2 (40:39):
He had a cocaine problem from here in Harlem. And
that's how it is. You know, you go to the
school and you dry you out. So I don't know
for personal because I don't know Chris Washburn except from
playing against him a couple of times of being drafted
in the same draft.

Speaker 3 (40:56):
I don't know him, but I know I know this.
I was with Lenny.

Speaker 2 (41:01):
Outside of the High Hotel and it wasn't like they
knew each other. So if they didn't know each other,
then they would have they would have been more cordial.

Speaker 3 (41:12):
He didn't act like he knew him at all.

Speaker 2 (41:14):
We were just like the night before the draft and
he got a bad one and he sat there and
told us about his car. I never forget this. Chris
Washburn was like, he I already got my car. I said,
what you get? He said, man, I got a Mercedes
Beans with a Rose royceteria. And I looked at Lenny
and I go, that's the dumbest shit I've ever heard

(41:35):
in my life. The Mercedes vendetaria is enough. Why would
they take the materia out of a Rose Royce and
put it into your Mercedes? How much they get you
for him? One hundred thousand dollars.

Speaker 3 (41:46):
I was like, you gotta be on drugs, and I.

Speaker 1 (41:49):
Was admittedly he was.

Speaker 2 (41:51):
He was on drugs, yea, I was right, And and
Lynn would sit around and left because Lynn didn't say
he knew this kid or act like we knew. We
knew we were all in acc right, But it wasn't
like they were buddies, pals and best friends. I didn't
get that feeling. They may have been hiding that too,
But I'm telling you, I've been around Lenny a lot.

(42:12):
I was around him a lot. I didn't, and I've
been around a lot of drug addicts. So I hear
not gonna say who, but I so, I you know
my whole life, and I could tell, but I want to.

Speaker 1 (42:22):
I want to throw this to Don soon to talk
about NBA and comparing Michael to what Len could have
been the whole thing, But a couple of things I'd
like to wrap up with. In your mind, who was
Len Bias when he was in college? As you knew him,
how would you describe him as a person as a player,

(42:43):
comparing him to other players? And as you knew him
as a person, how would.

Speaker 2 (42:47):
You who was he to you as a person? To
start with the most important part, As a person, he
was an introverted, awkward, sometimes socially awkward. It he didn't
you know, it's quiet, laid back all about basketball as

(43:08):
a professor. As an athlete, he was a menace. I
was not joking. He was a god, Jesus and the
devil all in one. He was going to give you
the business. And he was so intense about playing. He
didn't yell at people to point I say to me,
it was an all around great person.

Speaker 3 (43:27):
He that was it. Now as a student, I.

Speaker 2 (43:31):
Guess part of the reason to go to University of
Maryland is you don't have to do your school work
so much.

Speaker 1 (43:38):
I saw that coming. I am a merily grad by
the way.

Speaker 3 (43:43):
And I can tell by the way you spell.

Speaker 1 (43:46):
Can you tell him I'm among the academic elite.

Speaker 5 (43:54):
Uh?

Speaker 1 (43:55):
Actually I.

Speaker 2 (43:58):
Do. I do appreciate you, and I did appreciate it.
And it's funny. He's one of the only thing. I
don't remember a lot about a lot of things. I
went to a jungle in Costa Rica in two thousand
and ten, nine or ten, and I did and I
literally cleared my brain out. So I don't have any

(44:20):
hate any I don't have as much hate as I
used to. I don't have any resentment, no guilt. I
left all at the jungle, So I don't remember a lot.
But when you mentioned lambias. It just clicks into a
part of my brain that I never forget. Plus I
had a lot of sports psychology psychiatrists, Like my best
friend got murdered my second year in college, and they

(44:43):
taught me how to deal with that. And then when
Lanning got murdered, That's the way I look at it.
I had to deal with that. Now.

Speaker 3 (44:49):
Imagine I'm the happiest day.

Speaker 2 (44:53):
Last thing he says is I see the leads and
I was like, yep, So he goes up.

Speaker 3 (44:59):
I don't see him anymore.

Speaker 2 (45:01):
I'm then with my agent at the time, and we
fly to Detroit. My roommate is Dennis Rodney again. He
was my roommate and Hawaii, so he's my roommate again.
He wakes me up and he tells me, your friend's
on the news. I said who, He said, the guy
you we was sitting next to at the draft and

(45:21):
then I hit the news. So I had to deal
with having one of the happiest days of my life
to one of the saddest days of my life and
then get up and go do media as if it
didn't happen. So I was numb the whole time, and
then a week later, I'm staying at Johnny Dawkin's house
going to the funeral. So it was like everything was

(45:43):
moving so fast that I didn't get to literally take
it all in because I was still, you know, trying
to be happy about making it or being successful. But
it wasn't as happy as I wanted to be. Because
Lenny goes number two, Johnny Dawkins goes number ten, I

(46:05):
go number eleven. So I just killed me. It still
does it bothers me to this day. That and I
love Michael Jorgan is my frat brother on Make Aside
Fire Incorporated. I've been with Michael, you know, since nineteen
eighty two, first time I saw him, first time.

Speaker 3 (46:23):
I met him. But I'm telling you would have been
an entirely different narrative.

Speaker 2 (46:31):
I really believe that. I don't. I think Michael is
the most fluid, slickest. We call him black Cat. Black
Cat is amazing. But Lenny was six' nine and he
was going to The celtics And Larry bird was going
to play small, FORWARD i mean big, forward and kept
McHale was going to play. Center LIKE i don't know

(46:54):
what would have. HAPPENED i don't know what would have,
happened but there was no way of benching this. GUY
i don't know If magic would have won any more.
CHAMPIONSHIPS i think the dynasty would have been. Amazing where
they would have fit those, GUYS i have no, idea
but it would have happened done.

Speaker 1 (47:11):
If you could just wait a little. More like a
couple of quick follow. Ups you made a reference To
Costa rica and in the jungle and maybe helped your.
Head and it was the psycho psycho psychedelic drug treatments
that that that have become popular FOR ptsd? Stuff was
that part because if it, is it was lend part
of the reason for that that you had to sort

(47:33):
of get that out of your mind or your. Memory
was that was that affecting?

Speaker 2 (47:38):
You, no so you're talking about when they do araguasca
and D. Mt, yeah, YEAH i didn't. KNOW i went
down to do a show. Call i'm a, Celebrity get
me out of. HERE i was in the jungle With Nis,
dickinson AND i would have never mind that it was
to deal with that or kill Jet, no but we'll move.

(47:59):
On it's funny you know you mentioned that BECAUSE i
did do three years, AGO i did do ayahuasca and
it does open your. Brain but that wasn't mainly WHY
i did. IT i went down to do a, show
but it WAS i literally had to humble. Myself i'd
been riding a high horse too long AND i had

(48:22):
to go down there and literally not have, anything no cell,
phone no contact with people besides people in the, Show, like, literally,
hey you're supposed to be all big and.

Speaker 3 (48:34):
Mighty now you have. Nothing let's see how you.

Speaker 2 (48:37):
Deal and so the days it was, RAINING i got
to sit in the water and cry about the THINGS
i didn't cry, about forgive myself for Things i've done
or shouldn't have, done forgive, others and realize, that you,
know life is. Fleeting so it took that twenty eight

(48:58):
days for me to grow. UP a lot of people
don't get to step off the. TREADMILL i got to
step off the treadmill and that's that was my. Blessing
AND i didn't need any drugs for.

Speaker 1 (49:05):
That that's.

Speaker 3 (49:06):
Cool and just to let you, know those are not,
drugs those medical.

Speaker 2 (49:11):
Medicine that was a plant a, drug, RIGHT a drug is.
Made in, fact you.

Speaker 1 (49:16):
Saw The Real sports special on that about the psychedelic
drugs and how they're helping people WITH. Ptsd if you,
haven't it's. All it's. Tremendous it's a great. Peace.

Speaker 3 (49:25):
Uh, finally, YEAH i definitely GOT.

Speaker 1 (49:26):
Ptsd, okay, finally BEFORE i throw it to don you
talked a lot about sort of cultural theme about the
history of black people in this country connected to. Slavery
do you find any profound cultural connections To lend and

(49:47):
society today away from the drug impact of the drug?
Laws do you see his death affecting black culture in
ways that maybe people don't.

Speaker 2 (49:56):
Realize, No i'm only saying that because it was almost
forty years, ago and it's a, different different world. Now

(50:18):
it's a different world, now AND i would have to
sit and think about that and answer that. Question but
in the, eighties it was cracked.

Speaker 3 (50:28):
And it wasn't an.

Speaker 2 (50:29):
Epidemic now it's opioids and it's an. Epidemic and opioids
were not in my. Community crack, Was, uh now opioids
in my community through rap music when they're crushing up
pills and putting it in, drinks making songs About miley.

(50:53):
Percocets it's it's it's a different time back, then you.
Know back then you people fell into the drug game
without even knowing they were in the drug. Game it
was it, was it became that. Fast it was almost
like zombies. Everywhere now you have to literally. Focus if

(51:15):
you want to be a drug, addict then you have
to focus on it and, SAY i, Know I'm i'm
addicted because it takes too much to get to. It
so that's the only WAY i can think about it
when WHEN i talk about drugs or cocaine or, crack
AND i don't know if if enough, PEOPLE i want

(51:38):
enough people to pay attention to how Great lenny would
have been or could have.

Speaker 3 (51:42):
Been the only WAY i can put.

Speaker 1 (51:45):
It that's, okay done all your.

Speaker 2 (51:47):
Spreading, yeah, thanks. OKAY i gotta go.

Speaker 4 (51:53):
To when when When lenn had sort of his coming
out At, maryland whether it was the game you, know
his sophomore, year uh and And michael finished the game
with that cradle dunk or the or the or the
game you know where he Led maryland to the championship
and they hadn't done that Under. Lefty did you did you,

(52:16):
say OH i knew this was. HAPPENED i, mean did
you did you did people like say to, YOU i
didn't know that guy was that? GOOD i, mean did
you have to SAY i knew this the whole time
or did he even surprise you at how his game took.

Speaker 2 (52:30):
Off, NO i knew this is the craziest. THING i
wanted to go To maryland SO i could play With, lenny,
Period like when he, said, Yeah i'm gonna go To
university Of Maryland Johnny dawkins AND i considered playing With.
Lenny that's how many people wanted to play. You it's
like playing With. Michael you know you're gonna. Win you

(52:52):
know you're gonna. Win there's not gonna be anybody out there.

Speaker 3 (52:55):
Better you know you're gonna. Win you believe in this.

Speaker 2 (52:58):
Situation So, NO i definitely know left To, giselle you,
know running, around you, know like not knowing that was
my lefty. Impression you knew you were gonna, Win you
Knew lenny was gonna take it. Over you knew it

(53:19):
was gonna get to that. Point and it's funny you
called it to going out game To lenny and To.
Michael it's just it's street basketball.

Speaker 3 (53:26):
Again it just happened to have fans and ALL i was, like, oh,
yeah you got me last.

Speaker 2 (53:31):
Time i'm about to get thirty on you this. TIME
i mean it's that. Mentality uh, YEAH i JUST i just.
KNOW i don't think people are going, WOW i think
they knew if you knew, anything especially everybody out of D.
C that's another. Thing lenny wasn't just playing for The

(53:52):
university Of. Maryland he's playing for everybody in his.

Speaker 4 (53:55):
Neighborhood How come they didn't, win you, know they didn't
win at a high level when he.

Speaker 3 (54:01):
Was there Because Georgia tech was in the.

Speaker 5 (54:04):
Way if you if, you if you go and, check
like we played them in the championship In, hawaii we
beat him in the A C C.

Speaker 3 (54:15):
Championship we uh who? Else they just didn't have.

Speaker 2 (54:24):
It they Just adrian branched, great but they had so
many different people that felt they should take the last
shot or it should go through.

Speaker 3 (54:36):
Them it kind of gets in the. Way mm.

Speaker 4 (54:41):
Hmm in terms Of michael the, comparison you, know when
when he came? Out when when when When lynn came?
Out michael at that, point, YEAH i guess. HE i
don't even he got out of the year or his rookie.

Speaker 2 (54:55):
Year and so what happened is when when when we
got into THE, NBA i mean when we got into,
College michael had already hit the shot off the, backboard,
Right so the next Year worthy wasn't. There we were, freshmen,

(55:17):
right And michael was in his second, year and then
going Into lenny AND i and our sophomore, Year lenny
takes off and that was that big game Against. Michael
michael goes pro after that eighty, four, Right, so and
you only get to play them two times a year

(55:40):
something like, that two or three. Times so In North
carolina was, Through Sam perkins was really getting a lot of.

Speaker 3 (55:49):
A lot of the.

Speaker 2 (55:49):
Light and you, know Coach Dean smith was really in
charge on who got to shine who didn't get to.
Shine so you never really got to See Michael joe
and red line one hundred degrees because he would always
table him back.

Speaker 4 (56:06):
Right you. Know yeah the line about team was the
only one to Keep michael under twenty points a.

Speaker 2 (56:10):
Game, yeah definitely a.

Speaker 4 (56:13):
Lot he must have a lot of friends In. Vegas you,
know WHEN i COVERED i had Covered jordan And Bitton.
COLLEGE i had worked in The New york area and
done some stuff with you, Know. Michael when he came,
THROUGH i had not, known you, Know Lenny. BIAS i
heard the name WHEN i AND i had just finished
Covering Chris mollen and and The Big.

Speaker 2 (56:33):
East you're you're Hated Big.

Speaker 4 (56:34):
East AND i saw this guy AND i, said you Know,
mullen you know he's a Future hall Of Famer and that,
kid he was a boy compared To.

Speaker 2 (56:43):
Lenny lenny was a.

Speaker 4 (56:44):
Man and and and and when he came, OUT i,
said He's michael with a jump. Shot HE'S i said.
THAT i used to say. THAT i used to say
this guy could to suit. It and he was three's just, tall,
RIGHT i mean he he reminded me of a big
version Of David, thompson just because of his so you
know how you know. Athleticism his jump shot was. Beautiful

(57:08):
do people underestimate how good a pro he would have
been because they just didn't see the finished? Product and
and and you mentioned before how it changed the. Narrative
you were part of that narrative being with the being With.
Pistons The pistons became the next sort of mini. Dynasty
if Len bias, lives do the bad boys, exist do

(57:32):
the do the bulls you, know have the three? Peats
or does him being with The celtics change? Everything not
to say you guys wouldn't have, Won chicago wouldn't have.
Won but it wouldn't have been any kind of dynasty
situation unless it was The, celtics if they had stayed.

Speaker 2 (57:48):
Healthy let me tell, you len biased In boston changes.
Everything it changes the way we only had to. Worry
not only that was the dumbest THING i just, said
but we Had Lottery parrish and kal dj danny, a

(58:13):
who else corn? Bread we had all these cats to worry.
About for them to have this monster of a of a,
player it would have it would have changed everything against The,
celtics against The, lakers it would have changed it.

Speaker 3 (58:34):
All and people, said, well you don't know.

Speaker 2 (58:37):
That YEAH i. DO i do know that even with,
it If lenny wouldn't have made a, Difference lenny was
about winning and putting the ball in the. Basket when
you look at guys you start talking about a great,
scory you just got to realize that this person can
put a nine pound, thing that's nine pounds, around that's

(58:59):
nine inches of round into an eighteen inch rim, consistently
almost like second.

Speaker 3 (59:07):
Nature and he had no.

Speaker 2 (59:10):
Problem in sliding his feet and playing defense or going
up and getting the rebound jumping forty one forty two
inches off the ground and having muscles in places most
humans don't have. Muscles so this was an unbelievable specimen
of a human being and to better, gout AND i
think it would have changed. Everything do you do you think?

Speaker 4 (59:33):
THAT i, mean because people say you can't compare anybody
To michael having seen what you saw at five, store
have you seen what you're certainly accou he been what
he had, been.

Speaker 3 (59:46):
The rival To Michael. Jordan, YES i think you really
can't compare anything To.

Speaker 2 (59:52):
Michael remember they tried to Compare Clyde drexler and that
Pissed michael, off And michael wanted to go at. It
but if you watched nineteen eighty four, trials he was doing,
well but so was everyone. Else Len bias would have
been in the SAME i guess image on the same.

Speaker 3 (01:00:16):
Same.

Speaker 2 (01:00:17):
Conversation people don't remember That Ron harper before his knees.

Speaker 3 (01:00:22):
Were bad and he had to have him operated. On
when he played for The.

Speaker 2 (01:00:25):
Clippers he was Giving Michael jordan the business as, well
That Ron harper was, like these guys were really Really
at this, point it just developed that THE nba was
looking For.

Speaker 3 (01:00:37):
MESSIAH i got in trouble ON espn for saying he.

Speaker 2 (01:00:40):
Said the greatest player all the, time said were not
of all, time maybe of the, nineties and they wanted
to crucify me BECAUSE i was truthful that in the
Nineties michael was the, best but not in the, eighties
not in the, seventies not in the. Sixties in the,
nineties from nineteen ninety one to eighteen ninety, Five michael

(01:01:02):
was the. Man then from nineteen ninety six to nineteen ninety,
Eight michael was the. Man then when he went To,
washington he no longer was the man that.

Speaker 3 (01:01:14):
Period and if people want, to, well he was getting.
OLD i don't.

Speaker 2 (01:01:18):
Care can't be the greatest of all, time of all
time and just delete everyone. ELSE i think it was
it's a marketing scheme by THE, nba by nineteen BY,
espn and it's good they needed A. Messiah but then
it's one of my favorite movies Is The Ten commandments
and he, goes where is Your messiah? Now so, anyway

(01:01:43):
where's Your god? Now so it's JUST i don't believe.
THAT i just don't believe. That you, know HE'S i
think he's a GREAT i think he's a great. PLAYER
i love EVERYTHING mj is.

Speaker 3 (01:01:53):
DONE i.

Speaker 2 (01:01:55):
Watched it score sixty three on us AND i was
a part of. IT i got twenty of. Them it's
still my, guy but not of all. Time AND i
think if they would have had to split it and
you were allowed to Let lenny do what he, does
we see it. Differently hey think about. It but Nod
king wasn't allowed to do everything he wanted to. Either

(01:02:16):
but Nod king is my favorite player. Period DOCTOR j
is my FAVORITE nba. Player but but Nod. King IF
i were to say anything from the streets all the way,
through it's but No king to.

Speaker 3 (01:02:28):
Me i'm A New.

Speaker 2 (01:02:28):
Yorker that's that's the way we.

Speaker 3 (01:02:31):
Go we could go WITH bk all.

Speaker 4 (01:02:33):
Day let me ask you one quick. Question you Mentioned Olympic.
Trials did you were You did you go to the
trials in eighty?

Speaker 1 (01:02:39):
Four?

Speaker 2 (01:02:40):
No, no, OKAY i. NEVER i never was good enough
for them to say you should come Represent.

Speaker 4 (01:02:47):
America, okay because somebody told us or it was out
there at some, point we never could get it confirmed
That lenn turned down The Olympic. Trials do you know
if that is correct or?

Speaker 3 (01:02:57):
NOT i wouldn't have known, that AND i wouldn't be lead.

Speaker 1 (01:03:00):
That, okay all, right do you see did you see
his death related To did it changed your life related to,
drugs et cetera or kept you in a certain mindset
away from. Drugs did you see that AFFECT nba players
the way he, Died how it affected their attitude toward
abusing drugs or anybody changed through life because Of.

Speaker 2 (01:03:21):
Lendine, YEAH i THINK i think THE nba changed this
whole mentality about drugs because of the way Lent biased.
Died that for one of the up and coming stars
to die from a cocaine overdose from what was reported

(01:03:42):
is not having enough body fat and his heart blowing
up like, shreds it changed THE nba drug policies all
of a. Sudden it was, like now there was more
people out looking for people who are getting. High there
were more guys going down getting in trouble for. It,

(01:04:04):
before AS i understand that THE nba was said to
be too, black too drug. Infestive now they were cleaning it.
Up they started getting more and More european, players and
literally they were testing crazy places for drugs and some
of our favorite players or players that were putting on
shows were no longer The Michael Ray, richardson who's played

(01:04:27):
for the Next now THAT i mentioned, it you, know
you've never heard his name until me saying it right.

Speaker 1 (01:04:32):
Now RARELY i remember, it but you don't hear much about.

Speaker 2 (01:04:35):
It, yeah because THE nba is the best at erasing
people's memories and doing away with things that don't work
well with our. Product now THAT i agree. With if
it doesn't work well with the product we're trying to
sell and help these up and coming, cats if it's
detrimental to you and to the, league you should be.

(01:04:56):
Eliminated so THE nba started going out with the right
people to find out who were doing. What they started
having meetings that were mandatory five thousand dollars out of your,
check ten thousand dollars out of your check if you
missed the drug. MEETING i, mean THE nba jumped on,
it said this is not going to. Happen we're not

(01:05:17):
going to be known as a drug. League leave that
to baseball and to.

Speaker 1 (01:05:22):
Help how often were they having these.

Speaker 2 (01:05:26):
Meetings we have a meeting on every team they fly.
In put it this. Way camp starts day two drug.
Tests they're not even not even to the point where
you get the scrimmage drug. Tests you in, there you
take the, pictures y'all, happy you go to the dinner tomorrow.

(01:05:49):
Y'all we're gonna start at ten, o'clock and then we
got another one starting at five point thirty at nine.
O'clock upeeing in a jar and they're watching. It there's
none of that. Here go behind the. Stall they're watching.
You if they can get you to do it, naked they,
would they. Would they were so serious about getting rid
of this drug gad.

Speaker 1 (01:06:10):
And to your, knowledge that wasn't happening until you, started
because that was it.

Speaker 2 (01:06:14):
WAS i remember one time we had a meeting one
of the players on the. TEAM i won't say his,
name not fond of. Him they made us all get
together and he, said, hey do you mind if we
sign attendance. Job the guy says. Yeah he passed it
around and he, goes, okay everybody's. Here he, SAID i

(01:06:34):
got one. Question do you guys check for? Marijuana said?
No do you guys check for bear beer and? Alcohol said?
No he, said nice to meet, you got up and
walked out of the. Being we.

Speaker 3 (01:06:45):
Laughed he really laughed because he knew he didn't do
any of those other.

Speaker 2 (01:06:49):
Drugs but and if they're not checking for those two very.

Speaker 1 (01:07:00):
Interesting so this when you went to clarify when you
said they had people going out and sort of looking
to make sure there was a guy Hors bomber was
a head of security for THE. Nba then if you remember,
him he told you for the, book if you recall
that they had people going like, investigators investigating backgrounds of
players before they would before they would want to draft.

(01:07:22):
Them after, that did you see, more that's what you're referring.

Speaker 2 (01:07:25):
To, Yeah i'm telling you THE nba is is the
best when it comes to when it comes to literally find,
it like the like THE. Nfl they have you write,
this they have you take this litleus test and they
asked you this. Question THE nba wants to. Know they're
going to know who you hang out. With that's what

(01:07:50):
he might be the best person to ask if that
baby belongs To Len.

Speaker 1 (01:07:53):
Bias, well actually he passed away, Unfortunately UH i forgot
to Ask hi about the.

Speaker 2 (01:07:58):
Book but, yeah but that would have Been horrace and
it Was horrace's, boy the light skinned guy who was with.

Speaker 3 (01:08:04):
Him they knew everything about.

Speaker 2 (01:08:06):
Everybody you don't remember has.

Speaker 1 (01:08:10):
No, Actually horrace said he didn't know about lends drug.
Use yah know he's He. Clark he didn't know.

Speaker 2 (01:08:15):
It and that's What i'm telling. You there's no Way
horace would not have. Known That's i'm being very. Serious
they know everything that needs to. Happen because THE nba
was changing nineteen eighty, Four David stern gets in and
Tells Michael, jordan we're going to change his. League and he.
Did he did he and they call Him David. STERN

(01:08:39):
i call him The don AND i used to call
him the dawn in his. FACE i, Go Don, sterling
let me ask you a, Question Don, stern let me ask. You.
Please it's a little bit of bread for my. Family
let me have this. Neighborhood you keep your. Neighborhood, john

(01:09:01):
thank you so.

Speaker 1 (01:09:01):
MUCH i enjoyed the. Time appreciate.

Speaker 2 (01:09:03):
It will be.

Speaker 1 (01:09:04):
Rich take care all.

Speaker 2 (01:09:05):
Right Len BIAS A Mixed.

Speaker 1 (01:09:08):
Legacy the interviews was produced By Davon grady And Don.

Speaker 2 (01:09:13):
Marcus he had it all, strong quick and he was
So len BIAS A Mixed legacy is distributed by The
Eighth Side. Network just For greatness at loss to let
you known them all of the, Memories remember. ME i
hope they do the. Same