October 26, 2023 • 33 mins
Dave and don interview UCF Head Coach, former NCAA Player of the Year at Duke, and former NBA point guard Johnny Dawkins. Johnny remembers his time playing against Len in the ACC, barnstorming games and pickup games. His unique perspective is shared on how Len's tragic death and legacy helped save lives.
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Speaker 1 (00:06):
All.
Speaker 2 (00:08):
Johnny, Obviously, you have a unique perspective on this story,
having you know, really been a part of it in
terms of being a guy who went through you know,
high school around the same time in the DC area,
with Land playing against him for four years, you know,
with Duke Maryland, you know Duke Maryland games, and then.
Speaker 3 (00:26):
Being a part of that eighty six draft.
Speaker 2 (00:28):
Class, and and when you look back at at at
what happened and what you know, how great a player
he could have been. Are there are there any times
where you're watching something that will remind you, whether it's
you know, I know, they last summer at ESPN did
(00:48):
a whole three hour segment on remembering Len Bias or
they thought, you know, or the Last Dance. Is there
anything that you know when you when you're now thirty
five years thirty five years later, when you're watching something
reminds you of when when all that transpired, whether it
was the high.
Speaker 1 (01:06):
School years, the college years, or.
Speaker 3 (01:08):
Or or or the draft.
Speaker 4 (01:10):
Well, I mean, you know, there's always something that's going
to remind you of many, uh, you know, in today's
sport of course, just whether it's watching some you know,
elite player out there excelling at the sport. You think about,
you know, what could have been, you know, if he
was able to continue his career. You think about, of
course the tragedies that happened, you know in society and
(01:34):
you know unfortunately with with drugs and so forth. You know,
you see that happen, and that may pop into your
mind again about just how sad a story that was
that he that uh, that he passed away you know
because of a drug you know, overdose or a drug situation.
Speaker 3 (01:49):
So uh, you.
Speaker 4 (01:51):
Know, so whenever those things pop up, So it's not
a time, I think any year that goes by if
you don't think of many and just he stays.
Speaker 1 (01:59):
With you right now. You played in d c U.
Speaker 2 (02:04):
So I don't know how much there was intercompetition between
you know, it was a strictly summer summer pickup games
where you first saw when uh, five Star camp.
Speaker 3 (02:14):
It was the first time you really saw played against them.
You know, that's an known well the.
Speaker 4 (02:19):
First time you know, of course, you know I ended
up you know five Star Basketball campus one and then
two would be you know, we were on the we
were on the Capitol Classic team together, you know, so
we played on that team together actually came out with
co MVPs and it was a great celebration because that's
where they take the DC area's best basketball players and
(02:40):
they play against the All Americans from all over the country.
And so of course to win that game against all
the All Americans from all over the country is a
big deal in our city. And we were able to
win that game, and we shared the MVP, and so
that was something that was special. We were supposed to
play each other that same season, but the game got
canceled because the snow, and so we didn't get a
(03:01):
chance to.
Speaker 1 (03:02):
Play against each other and during our senior year, which
was unfortunate.
Speaker 4 (03:05):
But but definitely those are some of us, some real
fond mary, some good times, right.
Speaker 2 (03:11):
Any play in particular in the you know, against any
big name player in the uh Capito Classic that you
remember when making uh not to.
Speaker 4 (03:20):
Mention big time plays, I mean he just I mean,
like See's VP of the game. So uh, he definitely
made a number of plays. I can't particularly think of
one of this age of about careers, but he uh,
you know, he was phenomenal. I mean I'm sure he
you know, he was just more than an athlete out there,
and he had such a good touch of good feel,
you know, such a soft jump shot for a guy
(03:42):
that was that explosive.
Speaker 1 (03:43):
And so he was a unique player.
Speaker 2 (03:45):
Yeah, now you made an immediate impact that duke, and
Duke was a I think you it was more of
a rebuilding situation when you went there with with with
Tommy and and and and I think Jay was in
that class.
Speaker 3 (03:57):
Allery, I think was in that class.
Speaker 2 (04:00):
He went to a team more veteran team. When when
you saw him as a freshman, you know, maybe early
sophomore as at Maryland, did you did you think, well,
he's deferring to you know, the Ben Colemans and the
Adrian Branches and wait, wait till he really shows what
he can do.
Speaker 3 (04:18):
What was your thought early on?
Speaker 2 (04:20):
And then when did you say, oh, okay, that's the
guy I remember from the cap Classic and from DC.
Speaker 1 (04:26):
Well, I know he was gonna emerge. And I saw
him in a Capitol Classic.
Speaker 4 (04:29):
To have that kind of performance on that stage, you know,
told him everything I need to know about him and
how good he could become.
Speaker 1 (04:34):
So it was just a matter of time before he
started to excel at Maryland.
Speaker 4 (04:37):
I mean, the thing about Lenny is The thing I
knew about him was he put a lot of time
on getting better physically and on his skill, on his.
Speaker 1 (04:45):
Game and shooting. I mean, he he was a guy.
He went to the gym. He wanted to work.
Speaker 4 (04:48):
You know, I'd always knew that about him, even though
I didn't always see him, because you can always tell
the players that put that kind of time in you
could watch their game grow and develop. So like I
saw it grow and develop from where he came from
high school, all sudden he's shared an MVP of the
Capitol Classic.
Speaker 1 (05:02):
I do the same thing was going to apply. He
kept that same work in college.
Speaker 3 (05:05):
For you know, everybody talks about the game against Carolina.
Speaker 2 (05:11):
That was the first year I was on the beat
at the Sun covering him, and and in one of
the other games I remember is the game against Duke.
He had forty one I think at Cameron and and
and I think Keith was even his point guard was
sick that night or back injury or something. And I
remember Coach k saying that was the best performance ever
by a visiting player at Cameron at that time. What
(05:32):
do you have any memories of that night? And I
know Jay talked about it like, you know, coming back
to the huddle. Basically all the huddle, all the defensive
huddles were about like, okay, are we going to stop
this guy?
Speaker 1 (05:43):
You know what, what what are we going to do? Well?
Speaker 4 (05:47):
Jay, as institutional memories, he can remember those things bad
than I am, for sure, But you know I do
remember him just having a phenomenal night. He was, uh,
he was unguardable. I mean, when you get it going
like he got it going, you know, you know, going
to slow him down.
Speaker 1 (06:02):
I remember that.
Speaker 4 (06:02):
You know, it's very competitive, all being from the same area,
of course, you know, so you definitely, you definitely, you know,
we beating him up there. Of course they coming back
to have a chance to play us at our place,
and so not one to lose back to back games.
And so he put on a great performance and I'll
never forget that. Just you know, we we sent everything out,
a number of guys starting him. But you know, as
far as his abilities, I mean, like I said, he
(06:24):
was at a stage in his career in his game
where he was he was.
Speaker 3 (06:27):
At he was at the top.
Speaker 1 (06:28):
I mean, so he was definitely playing some really good basketball.
Speaker 2 (06:32):
And what do you remember about the ACA, Yeah, it's
probably something you don't want to remember. But the ACC
championship game in eighty four, Uh, any any any memories
of that? That game and uh, you know obviously that
was almost like, you know, his coming out as a star,
you know, at ACC tournament.
Speaker 4 (06:49):
I would say exactly what you said that to me.
In the ACC that was his coming out party. I
thought he he played really really well. He started to
play a way as I mentioned before, you so coming
to Capitol Classic, how he started to just you know
develop and then you see him, you know, having a
year's freshman year of course, like a lot of freshmen
a lot of places, he's figuring it out, and then
(07:10):
he's working hard, he's figuring it out.
Speaker 1 (07:11):
And then his sophomore year again he started to excel.
Speaker 4 (07:14):
And uh, I think that that game, if the championship was,
was his coming out party.
Speaker 1 (07:20):
As you just mentioned, I don't think you can put
any better than that. He was terrific. Again, you know,
he started just making play after play.
Speaker 4 (07:27):
He just like I said, it was very difficult to
guard because he did so many things, whether it's shooting
the ball from the perimeter, whether it's you know, finishing
around the basket, offensive rebounds, getting out in the lane
and running. I mean he just was, like said he was,
he was so well rounded as a player and can't
find too many faults in this game. And those guys
are the hardest ones to defend.
Speaker 2 (07:46):
Yeah, do you have any I mean, you were a
part of that age sixth class, you were a first
round pick of the Spurs.
Speaker 3 (07:53):
Do you have any memories of that night?
Speaker 2 (07:56):
How excited you guys were, you know, two guys from
DC being tramp picks together and and and and then
two days later hearing the news about you know, Lane
had passed.
Speaker 4 (08:09):
Just you know, definitely, you know, I remember us getting
drafted and and and congratulating each other, you know, very happy,
and these are something that you worked on pretty much.
Speaker 1 (08:16):
It feels like your entire life.
Speaker 4 (08:18):
So to see that dream come true and you be
selected amongst those few players have an opportunity to play
at that level. Uh, it's a cost of celebrations. So
we were very excited, very happy sharing that with each other.
Just the fact that man, congratulations, congratulations, man, good luck
and uh I remember it being that type of conversation.
And then uh, like I said, and two days later,
(08:40):
now everyone kind of can remember where they were during
that time, and uh, you know, I'm down back in
Carolina at that point in time. I'm actually out fishing,
and uh have a little little radio while I'm out
there fishing, and it comes across the radio that that
Len Lenny passed.
Speaker 1 (08:58):
And then first you listen to you like, that can't
be true.
Speaker 4 (09:00):
I just saw him, you know, forty eight hours ago
or so, and uh, they repeating it and they're just
everyone's in shock on the radio talking about it. And
I just got up, of course, you just got up
and left and went back to uh went back home
and followed up with people and you know, it wasn't
cell phones back then.
Speaker 1 (09:17):
Stuff.
Speaker 4 (09:18):
Went back and followed up with people and everyone confirmed
that yeah, he had passed.
Speaker 1 (09:22):
And just you know, just remember just being really in shock.
Just how you know, how how life is.
Speaker 4 (09:29):
That's how life works, you know, all of a sudden,
she got in the prime of his you know, with
his abilities and everything in the world ahead of him
to play for and to become a great player at
the next level, and the next day is just gone
and they.
Speaker 1 (09:41):
Just you know, it was shocking.
Speaker 2 (09:44):
We talked about you played with him on the acc
Barnstorming tour that earlier that that spring.
Speaker 3 (09:51):
Uh what was that like? What was the Barnstorming tour like?
Speaker 2 (09:54):
And what was it being a teammate again to bring
back memories of the Capclastic or obviously that's a much
differ you know format, it's much looser and everything like that.
Speaker 1 (10:04):
Well, Bonstone was fun. It was.
Speaker 4 (10:06):
It was always a great event in the Carolinas where
you'd go play and you play in different different towns
and play against the local you know, fire department, you know,
police department, you know, faculty from the high schools and
schools and just it was a fun, fun time. It's
kind of a celebration of all acc players and so yeah,
(10:27):
when he decided to come down and play, it just
made it that much more special to be able to
unite with him in that type of environment and not
just be competing against them, which we had.
Speaker 1 (10:35):
Done for four straight years. So it was a lot
of fun.
Speaker 4 (10:38):
Just uh, you know, of course to show me that
he is, he would you know, he'd go out there
and you know do some amazing things of course during
the games or in the layup lines, and uh, just
you know, just fond memories and but he like I said,
those are Those are just like I said, memories I
throw a j Probably can elaborate on them some more
as well, but just just fun times where you know,
(10:58):
your chance to celebrate each other other, celebrate the moment.
Speaker 1 (11:01):
You know, college is winding down.
Speaker 4 (11:03):
For us, a new chapter is about to begin, and
we're kind of having fun, you know, kind of that
in between college and the NBA.
Speaker 2 (11:12):
In terms of you, you got to see through your eyes,
you know, the seasons you played in the NBA, you
saw Michael obviously developed pretty quickly into the player that
legend that he became.
Speaker 3 (11:25):
You know, when did you ever think about, you know, man,
Len would have been right there.
Speaker 2 (11:31):
Lenn would have been right not I say right there
with Michael, but right there as one of the top,
you know, eventually as one of the top players in
the league. Had he gotten that chance, knowing his skills,
knowing his game, is there any doubt that he would
have been considered one of the best players of his era.
Speaker 1 (11:47):
It's no doubt in my mind that he would have been.
I mean, he was, he was.
Speaker 4 (11:50):
He had the skill set to be very successful. He
shot the ball with good range. You know, I had
a great touch, I mean around the basket. Nobody could
jamp with him. I mean I played pros some for
a decade. He was still, you know, top one percentile
of athlete at that level, so that wouldn't have been
an issue for him.
Speaker 1 (12:07):
He could finish in the low post, you know, he
could defend.
Speaker 4 (12:10):
I mean, he was long, he was competitive, He had
all the attributes to be very successful. So I had,
you know, mom, I had no doubt that he'd have
been one of one of the greatest players to play.
You had he had that opportunity.
Speaker 2 (12:22):
Did when you watch the NBA and you know, you
coach college for so long, is there any player in
all the time since then that reminds you reminded you
of lend at all, whether it's Zion or I mean
Lebron maybe more passing skills, and I don't want to
put him in that category if he's not, But any
(12:45):
anybody remind you of the Wayland played in his ear
compared to guys now or over the year.
Speaker 4 (12:52):
That's that's a difficult question for me because the game
has evolved so much. I mean, Lenny wasn't you know,
really put it on the floor and do a lot
of dribbles to create his offense. So and a lot
of the players you see nowadays, you know, they had
the ball in their hands for you know, a large
percentage of the time, and they can make whatever plays
they want to make when they want to make it.
You know, Lenny played off of people. You know, he
(13:12):
played off of the guards and played off of guys.
He received it, he shot it, you know, he received
it and you close out, you know, improperly, he drove,
he ripped him into the basket right away. He'd go
down going the low post, which they don't even play
down there anymore. So if they don't even play up
back to the basket too much anymore. So, No, it
isn't not anyone that really comes to mind, Like no,
(13:34):
Zion doesn't come to mind. Lebron doesn't come to mind.
You know, he was unique in who he was. I mean,
just like I said, they have that type of athleticism
and they have that type of shooting stroke. That combination.
I think he would have been successful on any level
he played on it. Would he be very successful now absolutely,
because his skill sets will allow him to do that.
He could walk out there now because of his ability
to shoot the basketball still with that athleticism then play
(13:57):
making at the basket, he would have a lot of success.
Speaker 1 (13:59):
And it's like he would have done the same thing
during that time.
Speaker 2 (14:03):
Yeah, at Tapscott was talking about his hit for calling back,
you know, when when you and Franklin Frank Ross would
come up to the gym and work out. Len occasionally,
I guess came and played up there. And Agan Branch
he said there was a point in time, probably you know,
maybe a year before he passed away, that that you
(14:26):
guys not not necessarily expressed concern about him, but he
would show up with guys you didn't know, and and
and you like, you know about the guy. Maybe he
was just okay guy, he didn't know, You didn't know
what his intentions were or whatever, whether he was really
a friend or just trying to sort of feed off
of Len's celebrity. Was there every concern in your part
(14:47):
that you know, maybe he was widening the circle too much?
Speaker 1 (14:51):
Uh?
Speaker 4 (14:51):
Well, you know, typically, you know, in our sport, and
we used to go to America and play, and then
he would occasionally come down and play, that's for sure.
And uh, you know that was some times again because
you get a chance to work out and pete against
each other and pick up ball, which is a total
different type of game than you would during the course
of a season. So that was a lot of fun
times working on our skills and trying to get better.
But ye absolutely, you know, usually you know, you know,
(15:15):
you know, usually you know, the basketball players kind of
you know, hang with the basketball players, and so you
just kind of just kind of saw that during our
time that's kind of been expanded. Now you watch the
players as they've kind of come up through the nineties
and into the two thousands, you see bigger I won't
say lack of a better world entouragists, but you see
bigger groups of people together, ranging from all kind of
(15:36):
you know, different things that they're into, whether it's business,
whether it's basketball, whether it's you know, whatever the you know,
they choose to do.
Speaker 1 (15:44):
But yeah, so Lenny would have a different type.
Speaker 4 (15:47):
Of you know, a combination of players as well as
people that maybe weren't you know, players.
Speaker 3 (15:53):
Yeah, was there ever a concern about who he was
hanging out with?
Speaker 1 (15:56):
Us?
Speaker 3 (15:57):
Were they they were just guys that you met, mh uh.
Speaker 1 (16:01):
Guys that he knew, Guys that he was friends with.
I mean, we didn't know him as well, so I
might have, you know, one way or another.
Speaker 4 (16:07):
Uh to kind of you know, for me, just guys
that he knew we didn't really know as well, so
U but they were they were his friends and so
I know they wouldn't have been with him if he
didn't you know, he wasn't comfortable around him.
Speaker 3 (16:21):
Right, Okay, all right, Dave you have some questions.
Speaker 5 (16:25):
Yes I do. Thanks again Johnny for taking the time.
Speaker 6 (16:30):
Can you go back a little when you were playing
basketball in high school and uh what you were hearing
or thinking seeing or were or were thinking about lenn
at that time? Was he was he a level above target?
I mean there was a lot of good players. What
(16:50):
what separated him, if anything, from other players?
Speaker 1 (16:53):
Uh?
Speaker 4 (16:54):
You know one the thing the thing that I admired,
like like I'm sure you know, Coach TAP's gotta say
this about We were in the gym all the time,
we were working and trying to get better all the time,
and the thing I knew about him, even though I
didn't see him every day, was that's how he was.
Speaker 1 (17:08):
And I just always.
Speaker 4 (17:09):
Respected guys who really worked on their craft. I mean,
you know when you love the game, and you're passionate
about it. You know you're gonna put whatever time it
takes to become great at it. And and I could
tell he was doing that because there wasn't a time
I didn't see him getting better and better. You can't
improve in this game without the reps about putting in
the time. And so that's the thing I knew about
Lenny was that he had to.
Speaker 1 (17:28):
Have a heck of a work ethic.
Speaker 4 (17:29):
And you look at him physically, I mean, you know,
looking at him physically, you know, you could tell that
he was now the spending time work on his ball skills,
but also you know, in the weight room and so forth.
You could just tell that he had committed to wanting
to be a great player. And I have a great
deal of respect for guys who whatever profession they choose,
when they you know, attack it that way because they
attacking it with a passion. Because he was cool, quick,
(17:54):
and he was sold or.
Speaker 6 (17:55):
Fro Don made a reference a little earlier to some
of the people he may have been hanging out with
more basketball players. Do you remember meeting Brian Tribble And
if so, did you have any thoughts about Brian or
what was there any concern that he was hanging out
with this guy.
Speaker 1 (18:11):
Well, of course, I'm sure that, madam.
Speaker 4 (18:13):
Before you know, probably between tick up ball Down America
University or Barnstorming somewhere, I'm sure we'd probably run across
each other.
Speaker 1 (18:23):
I would venture to say we had.
Speaker 6 (18:25):
Did you remember having anybody having any concerns about him?
Speaker 1 (18:30):
I don't remember anybody really discussing that. You know, that
didn't come out.
Speaker 4 (18:33):
No one came to me and said they had a
concern about him at that time.
Speaker 6 (18:36):
Okay, there was a and we talked a bit about barnstorming.
I write this in the book. I talked with Chris Washburn.
You remember who Chris was, obviously, absolutely yeah, And Chris
tells me the story and I write in the book.
And he recounted that story for the podcast series An
interviewed last week how Lynn introduced him to cocaine on
the barn Storming tour in eighty six. He was with
(18:59):
a guy named Charles Logan and they knocked on his
door to bet one in the morning, and Chris said
he was in bed and he had never used cocaine.
Speaker 5 (19:07):
Before, but it was len Bias.
Speaker 6 (19:09):
He looked up to lend like an idol, and he said,
I'm not going to turned lend down. This went on
for four hours. He said he missed his class the
next morning and he never either. You're probably aware of
what happened to Chris with cocaine. Do you remember Charles Logan?
Do you remember hearing anything about him? Because he's passed away,
he can't confirm it.
Speaker 3 (19:27):
Uh.
Speaker 6 (19:27):
And that's was there any indication at that time that
you saw Lens sorta even on the trip, if you
saw him enough that there was something, you know, where's
he going or what's he doing kind of stuff?
Speaker 1 (19:38):
No, not at all, you know, unlike you know Chris.
Speaker 4 (19:40):
We never stayed in the places we bonsed him, so
we would always drive in, play the game, and then
drive right out. So I never like stayed around hung
out at the hotel we played. I'm headed right back
all the games in Carolina.
Speaker 5 (19:53):
Oh, that's good. Point.
Speaker 4 (19:54):
Longest drive is going to be the probably the longest
drive would be as vial. It was going to be
three and a half hours right after games. Oh, I
just head back and go sleep them on bed.
Speaker 5 (20:01):
Yeah. That the the the gentleman who who ran the
the tournament. We interad him last week.
Speaker 6 (20:08):
He telling great stories about how interactive Line was with
people down there, and how he how.
Speaker 5 (20:13):
He was so engaging with the people, how he.
Speaker 6 (20:16):
Would stay longer than anybody else to sign autographs, and
and and did you see some of that? And if
you did, what what do you recall from those after
those games, if he was doing anything that sort of
set him apart from anyone else.
Speaker 1 (20:28):
No, So he was, That's who he is. I mean,
you know he you know he was.
Speaker 4 (20:31):
I mean he was, like I said, he had gotten
to a point in his career where he developed and
worked really hard to become a great, great player. And
the thing that you admire about him is that that
he always stayed the same from the standpoint of you know,
with people.
Speaker 1 (20:44):
You know, he was always it doesn't surprise, but he
was good with people that that.
Speaker 4 (20:48):
He signed autographs as long as they wanted, or he
would talk to people, you know, if they came by
him and they wanted to, you know, ask a question
something I don't.
Speaker 1 (20:55):
I would never see him.
Speaker 4 (20:56):
I could never see him saying no to an autographs
and I could never see him not giving one some
time that that may have come by and wanted to
speak to him.
Speaker 1 (21:02):
This is not who he was.
Speaker 4 (21:03):
And uh and and yet I don't I didn't see
him change that as as he was continuing to move
forward with success.
Speaker 6 (21:10):
How did you see his death affect a couple perspectives
young basketball players in the DC area?
Speaker 5 (21:18):
Is where you grew up? You grew up in d C. Correct, Yeah?
Speaker 6 (21:22):
Yeah, young players in the area after he died. Also,
you went under play pro ball after he died. Did
you see any impact on players within the NBA? Well,
this happened to Lend. We have to be careful, it
could happen to us. And was there sort of was
there more of an emotional impact, a personal kind of
(21:42):
sadness that you saw within the DC community from it?
Speaker 5 (21:45):
Then?
Speaker 4 (21:46):
Absolute? Definitely a sadness in the d MD. There was
definitely a sadness in that community. Uh, you know, probably
still is to be quite frank, I mean just you know,
just think about who he would have become. I think
everyone carries that, you know with them and just said
that that it ends in such a tragedy.
Speaker 1 (22:04):
So his life.
Speaker 4 (22:05):
But yeah, same thing with being the NBA. I think
it was something that people thought about. I can't recall
any particular stories.
Speaker 1 (22:13):
But for sure.
Speaker 4 (22:14):
I mean, you know, every year of the anniversary of
what happened comes up, whenever year it's the draft, you know,
that story comes up and relive it. So definitely everyone
you know, as I think had an effect on everyone.
And I will say, you know, I think it goes
you know, unknown, or it maybe that it doesn't. But
(22:34):
I mean, how many lives do we think he saved
by what happened? I mean, I think sometimes we overlook
the fact that, you know, a generation of players that
have come behind him. I mean, who knows that that
would have happened to one or more of those players
if it hadn't been for the story of len Bias. So,
you know, talking about leaving the legacy, I mean is
like you said, it's a broad legacy. And that's part
(22:54):
of this legacy too. I think he saved a lot
more lives that will never know because of history and
the fact that we kept his story alive, the way
that Desbon kept alive.
Speaker 6 (23:04):
We in that thought patem we present the title of
the book is born ready a mixed legacy of lend
biased because it is there are people whose lives were saved,
There are peoples whose lives were greatly altered, and that's you're.
Speaker 5 (23:15):
Putting that, you're really capturing that very well.
Speaker 6 (23:17):
Uh left to Grissel told me a story about how
when he came out of when I talked to him
for the book a year or so before the book
came out, he was coming out of a church in
Virginia Beach and a man walked up to him who
he didn't know, and said, you coached Grisel And he
said yes, Diam. He said, did you coach Len Bias?
He said yes, I did. And he said, well, Len
Bias saved my life. He said, what do you mean?
(23:37):
He said, when Len died, I was addicted to cocaine.
I lost my job, I lost my family, all that.
And he said, I stopped using when Len died.
Speaker 1 (23:49):
Did you?
Speaker 2 (23:50):
Uh?
Speaker 6 (23:51):
We did it have any maybe not that dramatic, any
personal impact on you to stay away from drugs or
any of your friends.
Speaker 5 (23:58):
Say, whoa, hey, Len died. That's the big red light
to stop science. I got to be more aware of this.
Speaker 1 (24:04):
Uh no, not in my personal life. You know, that's
not something that I was really interested in, but it
did propel me to when I give like speeches.
Speaker 4 (24:13):
You know, you speak to a lot of basketball camps,
and I always, you know, have a part about drugs
in there because of that.
Speaker 1 (24:19):
I think that's there strictly because of Lenny.
Speaker 4 (24:21):
I wouldn't have used that story and different things of
that nature if it hadn't been for what happened to him.
Speaker 1 (24:28):
So pretty much every time I'll give.
Speaker 4 (24:30):
My you know, so with COVID, we may not be
able to have a camp again this year, but if
I had it, you know, I speak to my kids again,
and every time I give my lecture, I always have
a portion of it about about staying away from drugs,
and I think it's a direct result of what happened
to Lenny.
Speaker 5 (24:45):
Do you actually tell part of Len's story or make
a reference to lend or it's more of a general kind.
Speaker 4 (24:49):
Of more of a general I don't really use I
don't reference Lenny in the stories, you know, I just
kind of, you know, tell tell my story. But it's
I know it's because of memory of my memory of
Lenny is why I do that, Because I probably you know,
doing a basketball camp typically it's you know, about a
lot of things you can help young people growing. But
I made a point to always talk about drugs, and
(25:10):
I think that's directly related to Lenny.
Speaker 6 (25:12):
Dave Dickerson, who was on the team when Lenn died.
You may remember Dave from being a Maryland player. Yes,
he later coached at Tulane, and he tells he was
a Tulane during Hurricane Katrina. And he tells me a
story that I write about in the book that if
you recalled Chulane had to go to I think it
was Texas, A and m They had to pretty much
uproot their lives.
Speaker 5 (25:32):
Everything was very distorted and very unsettled.
Speaker 6 (25:36):
And he told the story of Land and his connection
to being part of that story as a way to
inspire his players. Look, this is a challenge. This is
going to be hard. I work through this. If I
work through this, you can work through this. You your
(25:57):
college coaching career, have you told his story in that perspective?
Have you used him at all talking to some of
your players?
Speaker 1 (26:03):
I definitely have, definitely with my teams.
Speaker 4 (26:05):
You know, I can't say every team, but I definitely
have used this story about the important of staying away
from drugs, understanding that the harm it can cause, and
how this is what happened to one man in his life,
and so you know, most of them because of like
I said, it comes around every year right after the
draft that most of them have heard of them. So
when I start telling him that somebody I played against,
(26:25):
we played at the same time, you know, pick up ball,
and and so when I was telling those stories, it
kind of, I think, brings everything, you know, you know,
it kind of brings it kind of crystallizes it for
all of those guys because they realize, like that, hey,
you actually knew that guy that we kind of only
heard stories about. So you know, you know, it gives
me a little bit of credibility when it comes to
like trying to explain to those guys important that they
(26:47):
need to make sure that they don't you know, you know,
you know, going down the path that could put them
in a position where you know, you never know that
you don't you know, you can end up dying off
of something from something like that.
Speaker 6 (27:00):
When you were playing against him in college, did you
ever step back and say, whoa man, how did he
do that? Was there any moments of marvel? Because you
were a player of the year, I mean, and you
were as established, if not more established as a basketball
player as level, but were there any.
Speaker 5 (27:16):
Moments when either I wish I could do that or
or or look what he just did. I don't know
if I could.
Speaker 3 (27:21):
Ever do that.
Speaker 1 (27:21):
No, absolutely, I just think about times, you know.
Speaker 4 (27:24):
I remember we were playing pickup ball, like a University
of Maryland one time when I was home, and uh,
you know, and they threw him a really really bad pass,
and like one of these passes that you really shouldn't
be able to catch him do anything with. He still
caught it and managed to take the ball all the
way to the room and dunket while he was still
in the air. And I'm just looking around, and I
(27:44):
think I was telling them what I was talking to
one of the players.
Speaker 1 (27:47):
I forget it. It was man ben Keith Gavin to
one of the guys, and I recall it correctly.
Speaker 4 (27:51):
It was like, well, we like to throw him back,
you know, bad passes, because those make them you know,
the best you know, dumps form, because he's able to
still catch him and do stuff that no one else
could do with the basketball and and that and that's right.
I mean, he he was so like I said, he
was such a such a gifted athlete to go along
with his skill set that I just made it was.
It was fun to watch plays like that that you
(28:12):
knew that no one else could do.
Speaker 6 (28:15):
When you think of your history with the Aerie of basketball,
as the college player of the Year, as a professional player,
college coach, and you think of all the impactful stories
that have happened in basketball or in sports during.
Speaker 5 (28:29):
Your lifetime and at the level that you competed in coach,
does any story have compared is it comparable an impact?
Speaker 1 (28:38):
Uh?
Speaker 5 (28:39):
How he died? What did the society the grong? You said,
you think it still had earlier, It's still had some
kind of an impact in the in the area today.
Speaker 1 (28:49):
It really does.
Speaker 5 (28:50):
I don't imagine.
Speaker 4 (28:52):
I'm sorry, I don't think there's any story that has
as much impact as that story.
Speaker 3 (28:56):
Uh.
Speaker 1 (28:58):
It was a tragedy.
Speaker 4 (28:59):
I mean, what happened, no matter what some of the
other stories may possess, you know, the fact that this
man died from what happened in that story, Uh, you know,
just it's very rarely does that happen, and uh, you
know in my lifetime anyway, And so absolutely that's that's
the number one story.
Speaker 1 (29:18):
And uh, there's some great lessons within that story.
Speaker 4 (29:21):
I think that, uh that we can take from, and
that a lot of people have taken from, as you
mentioned before, MH.
Speaker 5 (29:27):
And we can wrap it up with this un the
sun has something else you you make.
Speaker 6 (29:30):
You mentioned a big part of his legacy is it
changed a lot of lives in the positive way, kept
them wasting drugs or whatever.
Speaker 5 (29:38):
Is that his most important legacy? Do you think?
Speaker 6 (29:41):
Uh?
Speaker 1 (29:43):
I think it's right up there.
Speaker 4 (29:44):
I think, you know, when I when I think about him,
and I think about what could have happened during that time,
and and you know afterwards, you know, I just I
just had that that gut feeling, especially having played you know,
beyond college, that that he's that he saved a lot
of lives by what happened. I think the fact that
you could see this strong, talented, you know, just personable man,
(30:09):
you know, succumb to drugs the way he did and
die from him, I think everyone came to realization that
none of us are you know, what's a good word
for we?
Speaker 1 (30:18):
You know, we all aren't.
Speaker 4 (30:21):
None of us are basically invincible. You know, we all
are in a position where we you know, we're not invincible.
And I tell my players that to this day, I say,
you know, you guys, walk around you like your Superman,
but you know we really aren't.
Speaker 1 (30:37):
We all are vulnerable and we all can succumb to something.
Speaker 4 (30:40):
And again, you know, you think about linear situation because
it's no more powerful explosive person and player than he
was during his time, and he was still in his
early twenties, and so if that can happen to him,
it can.
Speaker 1 (30:52):
Happen to anybody.
Speaker 5 (30:53):
I apologize.
Speaker 6 (30:54):
I just think of one more as you're talking. When
you were playing in the NBA was right after Lynn died,
and there's a lot of speculation, and I think some
of it's valid because we'll never know that he could
have been the rivalry to Jordan, that magic was the bird,
that that uh wilt was to go Russell. Did you
(31:16):
hear any talk in the NBA that man, what would
have been like if len Bias would have been playing now?
Speaker 5 (31:22):
Did was there any kind of dreamy dreamy what could
have been kind.
Speaker 1 (31:27):
Of discussion kind of like what you're saying now.
Speaker 4 (31:29):
I mean everyone was, you know, wondering what type of
NBA player, what type of impact he would have had?
Uh And the same thing you said about the rivalry
with Jordan is you know, you know, everyone thought, but
that that could have been a great rivalry, that that
never came to pass. Absolutely, that that kind of was
floating around out there. I can't say who and what,
but that kind of thing was floating around people and and.
Speaker 1 (31:52):
Uh and and it's it makes sense to to think
like that.
Speaker 4 (31:55):
And uh, you know, because he was, you know, he
was on track to become a great, great player, and
it was just a function of you know, how far
would he get? But but you knew he was on
the right path. And uh and Jordan of course had
already started to ha made that turn. And of course
we see where he is now is the greatest player
to ever play our game. And uh, so you know,
you know how good was that playing in college basketball
(32:16):
in the ACC back in the mid eighties and.
Speaker 1 (32:19):
You got Jordan, you got Lenny and the cast of
other players. So it was, uh, it was a phenomenal time.
Speaker 4 (32:25):
And unfortunately, you know, we didn't get to see a
carry on to the NBA for for who you know,
which which had been some amazing you know decade or
a decade or so of those two guys, you know,
being able to play at an amazing level.
Speaker 5 (32:38):
Johnny, thank you, don do you have any follow up.
Speaker 3 (32:40):
Good Thanks Johnny Good, len.
Speaker 7 (32:45):
Bias A Mixed Legacy. The interviews was produced by Daveon
Grady and Don Marcus. Len bias A Mixed Legacy is
distributed by the Eighth Side Network.
Speaker 6 (33:00):
It
All.
Speaker 2 (00:08):
Johnny, Obviously, you have a unique perspective on this story,
having you know, really been a part of it in
terms of being a guy who went through you know,
high school around the same time in the DC area,
with Land playing against him for four years, you know,
with Duke Maryland, you know Duke Maryland games, and then.
Speaker 3 (00:26):
Being a part of that eighty six draft.
Speaker 2 (00:28):
Class, and and when you look back at at at
what happened and what you know, how great a player
he could have been. Are there are there any times
where you're watching something that will remind you, whether it's
you know, I know, they last summer at ESPN did
(00:48):
a whole three hour segment on remembering Len Bias or
they thought, you know, or the Last Dance. Is there
anything that you know when you when you're now thirty
five years thirty five years later, when you're watching something
reminds you of when when all that transpired, whether it
was the high.
Speaker 1 (01:06):
School years, the college years, or.
Speaker 3 (01:08):
Or or or the draft.
Speaker 4 (01:10):
Well, I mean, you know, there's always something that's going
to remind you of many, uh, you know, in today's
sport of course, just whether it's watching some you know,
elite player out there excelling at the sport. You think about,
you know, what could have been, you know, if he
was able to continue his career. You think about, of
course the tragedies that happened, you know in society and
(01:34):
you know unfortunately with with drugs and so forth. You know,
you see that happen, and that may pop into your
mind again about just how sad a story that was
that he that uh, that he passed away you know
because of a drug you know, overdose or a drug situation.
Speaker 3 (01:49):
So uh, you.
Speaker 4 (01:51):
Know, so whenever those things pop up, So it's not
a time, I think any year that goes by if
you don't think of many and just he stays.
Speaker 1 (01:59):
With you right now. You played in d c U.
Speaker 2 (02:04):
So I don't know how much there was intercompetition between
you know, it was a strictly summer summer pickup games
where you first saw when uh, five Star camp.
Speaker 3 (02:14):
It was the first time you really saw played against them.
You know, that's an known well the.
Speaker 4 (02:19):
First time you know, of course, you know I ended
up you know five Star Basketball campus one and then
two would be you know, we were on the we
were on the Capitol Classic team together, you know, so
we played on that team together actually came out with
co MVPs and it was a great celebration because that's
where they take the DC area's best basketball players and
(02:40):
they play against the All Americans from all over the country.
And so of course to win that game against all
the All Americans from all over the country is a
big deal in our city. And we were able to
win that game, and we shared the MVP, and so
that was something that was special. We were supposed to
play each other that same season, but the game got
canceled because the snow, and so we didn't get a
(03:01):
chance to.
Speaker 1 (03:02):
Play against each other and during our senior year, which
was unfortunate.
Speaker 4 (03:05):
But but definitely those are some of us, some real
fond mary, some good times, right.
Speaker 2 (03:11):
Any play in particular in the you know, against any
big name player in the uh Capito Classic that you
remember when making uh not to.
Speaker 4 (03:20):
Mention big time plays, I mean he just I mean,
like See's VP of the game. So uh, he definitely
made a number of plays. I can't particularly think of
one of this age of about careers, but he uh,
you know, he was phenomenal. I mean I'm sure he
you know, he was just more than an athlete out there,
and he had such a good touch of good feel,
you know, such a soft jump shot for a guy
(03:42):
that was that explosive.
Speaker 1 (03:43):
And so he was a unique player.
Speaker 2 (03:45):
Yeah, now you made an immediate impact that duke, and
Duke was a I think you it was more of
a rebuilding situation when you went there with with with
Tommy and and and and I think Jay was in
that class.
Speaker 3 (03:57):
Allery, I think was in that class.
Speaker 2 (04:00):
He went to a team more veteran team. When when
you saw him as a freshman, you know, maybe early
sophomore as at Maryland, did you did you think, well,
he's deferring to you know, the Ben Colemans and the
Adrian Branches and wait, wait till he really shows what
he can do.
Speaker 3 (04:18):
What was your thought early on?
Speaker 2 (04:20):
And then when did you say, oh, okay, that's the
guy I remember from the cap Classic and from DC.
Speaker 1 (04:26):
Well, I know he was gonna emerge. And I saw
him in a Capitol Classic.
Speaker 4 (04:29):
To have that kind of performance on that stage, you know,
told him everything I need to know about him and
how good he could become.
Speaker 1 (04:34):
So it was just a matter of time before he
started to excel at Maryland.
Speaker 4 (04:37):
I mean, the thing about Lenny is The thing I
knew about him was he put a lot of time
on getting better physically and on his skill, on his.
Speaker 1 (04:45):
Game and shooting. I mean, he he was a guy.
He went to the gym. He wanted to work.
Speaker 4 (04:48):
You know, I'd always knew that about him, even though
I didn't always see him, because you can always tell
the players that put that kind of time in you
could watch their game grow and develop. So like I
saw it grow and develop from where he came from
high school, all sudden he's shared an MVP of the
Capitol Classic.
Speaker 1 (05:02):
I do the same thing was going to apply. He
kept that same work in college.
Speaker 3 (05:05):
For you know, everybody talks about the game against Carolina.
Speaker 2 (05:11):
That was the first year I was on the beat
at the Sun covering him, and and in one of
the other games I remember is the game against Duke.
He had forty one I think at Cameron and and
and I think Keith was even his point guard was
sick that night or back injury or something. And I
remember Coach k saying that was the best performance ever
by a visiting player at Cameron at that time. What
(05:32):
do you have any memories of that night? And I
know Jay talked about it like, you know, coming back
to the huddle. Basically all the huddle, all the defensive
huddles were about like, okay, are we going to stop
this guy?
Speaker 1 (05:43):
You know what, what what are we going to do? Well?
Speaker 4 (05:47):
Jay, as institutional memories, he can remember those things bad
than I am, for sure, But you know I do
remember him just having a phenomenal night. He was, uh,
he was unguardable. I mean, when you get it going
like he got it going, you know, you know, going
to slow him down.
Speaker 1 (06:02):
I remember that.
Speaker 4 (06:02):
You know, it's very competitive, all being from the same area,
of course, you know, so you definitely, you definitely, you know,
we beating him up there. Of course they coming back
to have a chance to play us at our place,
and so not one to lose back to back games.
And so he put on a great performance and I'll
never forget that. Just you know, we we sent everything out,
a number of guys starting him. But you know, as
far as his abilities, I mean, like I said, he
(06:24):
was at a stage in his career in his game
where he was he was.
Speaker 3 (06:27):
At he was at the top.
Speaker 1 (06:28):
I mean, so he was definitely playing some really good basketball.
Speaker 2 (06:32):
And what do you remember about the ACA, Yeah, it's
probably something you don't want to remember. But the ACC
championship game in eighty four, Uh, any any any memories
of that? That game and uh, you know obviously that
was almost like, you know, his coming out as a star,
you know, at ACC tournament.
Speaker 4 (06:49):
I would say exactly what you said that to me.
In the ACC that was his coming out party. I
thought he he played really really well. He started to
play a way as I mentioned before, you so coming
to Capitol Classic, how he started to just you know
develop and then you see him, you know, having a
year's freshman year of course, like a lot of freshmen
a lot of places, he's figuring it out, and then
(07:10):
he's working hard, he's figuring it out.
Speaker 1 (07:11):
And then his sophomore year again he started to excel.
Speaker 4 (07:14):
And uh, I think that that game, if the championship was,
was his coming out party.
Speaker 1 (07:20):
As you just mentioned, I don't think you can put
any better than that. He was terrific. Again, you know,
he started just making play after play.
Speaker 4 (07:27):
He just like I said, it was very difficult to
guard because he did so many things, whether it's shooting
the ball from the perimeter, whether it's you know, finishing
around the basket, offensive rebounds, getting out in the lane
and running. I mean he just was, like said he was,
he was so well rounded as a player and can't
find too many faults in this game. And those guys
are the hardest ones to defend.
Speaker 2 (07:46):
Yeah, do you have any I mean, you were a
part of that age sixth class, you were a first
round pick of the Spurs.
Speaker 3 (07:53):
Do you have any memories of that night?
Speaker 2 (07:56):
How excited you guys were, you know, two guys from
DC being tramp picks together and and and and then
two days later hearing the news about you know, Lane
had passed.
Speaker 4 (08:09):
Just you know, definitely, you know, I remember us getting
drafted and and and congratulating each other, you know, very happy,
and these are something that you worked on pretty much.
Speaker 1 (08:16):
It feels like your entire life.
Speaker 4 (08:18):
So to see that dream come true and you be
selected amongst those few players have an opportunity to play
at that level. Uh, it's a cost of celebrations. So
we were very excited, very happy sharing that with each other.
Just the fact that man, congratulations, congratulations, man, good luck
and uh I remember it being that type of conversation.
And then uh, like I said, and two days later,
(08:40):
now everyone kind of can remember where they were during
that time, and uh, you know, I'm down back in
Carolina at that point in time. I'm actually out fishing,
and uh have a little little radio while I'm out
there fishing, and it comes across the radio that that
Len Lenny passed.
Speaker 1 (08:58):
And then first you listen to you like, that can't
be true.
Speaker 4 (09:00):
I just saw him, you know, forty eight hours ago
or so, and uh, they repeating it and they're just
everyone's in shock on the radio talking about it. And
I just got up, of course, you just got up
and left and went back to uh went back home
and followed up with people and you know, it wasn't
cell phones back then.
Speaker 1 (09:17):
Stuff.
Speaker 4 (09:18):
Went back and followed up with people and everyone confirmed
that yeah, he had passed.
Speaker 1 (09:22):
And just you know, just remember just being really in shock.
Just how you know, how how life is.
Speaker 4 (09:29):
That's how life works, you know, all of a sudden,
she got in the prime of his you know, with
his abilities and everything in the world ahead of him
to play for and to become a great player at
the next level, and the next day is just gone
and they.
Speaker 1 (09:41):
Just you know, it was shocking.
Speaker 2 (09:44):
We talked about you played with him on the acc
Barnstorming tour that earlier that that spring.
Speaker 3 (09:51):
Uh what was that like? What was the Barnstorming tour like?
Speaker 2 (09:54):
And what was it being a teammate again to bring
back memories of the Capclastic or obviously that's a much
differ you know format, it's much looser and everything like that.
Speaker 1 (10:04):
Well, Bonstone was fun. It was.
Speaker 4 (10:06):
It was always a great event in the Carolinas where
you'd go play and you play in different different towns
and play against the local you know, fire department, you know,
police department, you know, faculty from the high schools and
schools and just it was a fun, fun time. It's
kind of a celebration of all acc players and so yeah,
(10:27):
when he decided to come down and play, it just
made it that much more special to be able to
unite with him in that type of environment and not
just be competing against them, which we had.
Speaker 1 (10:35):
Done for four straight years. So it was a lot
of fun.
Speaker 4 (10:38):
Just uh, you know, of course to show me that
he is, he would you know, he'd go out there
and you know do some amazing things of course during
the games or in the layup lines, and uh, just
you know, just fond memories and but he like I said,
those are Those are just like I said, memories I
throw a j Probably can elaborate on them some more
as well, but just just fun times where you know,
(10:58):
your chance to celebrate each other other, celebrate the moment.
Speaker 1 (11:01):
You know, college is winding down.
Speaker 4 (11:03):
For us, a new chapter is about to begin, and
we're kind of having fun, you know, kind of that
in between college and the NBA.
Speaker 2 (11:12):
In terms of you, you got to see through your eyes,
you know, the seasons you played in the NBA, you
saw Michael obviously developed pretty quickly into the player that
legend that he became.
Speaker 3 (11:25):
You know, when did you ever think about, you know, man,
Len would have been right there.
Speaker 2 (11:31):
Lenn would have been right not I say right there
with Michael, but right there as one of the top,
you know, eventually as one of the top players in
the league. Had he gotten that chance, knowing his skills,
knowing his game, is there any doubt that he would
have been considered one of the best players of his era.
Speaker 1 (11:47):
It's no doubt in my mind that he would have been.
I mean, he was, he was.
Speaker 4 (11:50):
He had the skill set to be very successful. He
shot the ball with good range. You know, I had
a great touch, I mean around the basket. Nobody could
jamp with him. I mean I played pros some for
a decade. He was still, you know, top one percentile
of athlete at that level, so that wouldn't have been
an issue for him.
Speaker 1 (12:07):
He could finish in the low post, you know, he
could defend.
Speaker 4 (12:10):
I mean, he was long, he was competitive, He had
all the attributes to be very successful. So I had,
you know, mom, I had no doubt that he'd have
been one of one of the greatest players to play.
You had he had that opportunity.
Speaker 2 (12:22):
Did when you watch the NBA and you know, you
coach college for so long, is there any player in
all the time since then that reminds you reminded you
of lend at all, whether it's Zion or I mean
Lebron maybe more passing skills, and I don't want to
put him in that category if he's not, But any
(12:45):
anybody remind you of the Wayland played in his ear
compared to guys now or over the year.
Speaker 4 (12:52):
That's that's a difficult question for me because the game
has evolved so much. I mean, Lenny wasn't you know,
really put it on the floor and do a lot
of dribbles to create his offense. So and a lot
of the players you see nowadays, you know, they had
the ball in their hands for you know, a large
percentage of the time, and they can make whatever plays
they want to make when they want to make it.
You know, Lenny played off of people. You know, he
(13:12):
played off of the guards and played off of guys.
He received it, he shot it, you know, he received
it and you close out, you know, improperly, he drove,
he ripped him into the basket right away. He'd go
down going the low post, which they don't even play
down there anymore. So if they don't even play up
back to the basket too much anymore. So, No, it
isn't not anyone that really comes to mind, Like no,
(13:34):
Zion doesn't come to mind. Lebron doesn't come to mind.
You know, he was unique in who he was. I mean,
just like I said, they have that type of athleticism
and they have that type of shooting stroke. That combination.
I think he would have been successful on any level
he played on it. Would he be very successful now absolutely,
because his skill sets will allow him to do that.
He could walk out there now because of his ability
to shoot the basketball still with that athleticism then play
(13:57):
making at the basket, he would have a lot of success.
Speaker 1 (13:59):
And it's like he would have done the same thing
during that time.
Speaker 2 (14:03):
Yeah, at Tapscott was talking about his hit for calling back,
you know, when when you and Franklin Frank Ross would
come up to the gym and work out. Len occasionally,
I guess came and played up there. And Agan Branch
he said there was a point in time, probably you know,
maybe a year before he passed away, that that you
(14:26):
guys not not necessarily expressed concern about him, but he
would show up with guys you didn't know, and and
and you like, you know about the guy. Maybe he
was just okay guy, he didn't know, You didn't know
what his intentions were or whatever, whether he was really
a friend or just trying to sort of feed off
of Len's celebrity. Was there every concern in your part
(14:47):
that you know, maybe he was widening the circle too much?
Speaker 1 (14:51):
Uh?
Speaker 4 (14:51):
Well, you know, typically, you know, in our sport, and
we used to go to America and play, and then
he would occasionally come down and play, that's for sure.
And uh, you know that was some times again because
you get a chance to work out and pete against
each other and pick up ball, which is a total
different type of game than you would during the course
of a season. So that was a lot of fun
times working on our skills and trying to get better.
But ye absolutely, you know, usually you know, you know,
(15:15):
you know, usually you know, the basketball players kind of
you know, hang with the basketball players, and so you
just kind of just kind of saw that during our
time that's kind of been expanded. Now you watch the
players as they've kind of come up through the nineties
and into the two thousands, you see bigger I won't
say lack of a better world entouragists, but you see
bigger groups of people together, ranging from all kind of
(15:36):
you know, different things that they're into, whether it's business,
whether it's basketball, whether it's you know, whatever the you know,
they choose to do.
Speaker 1 (15:44):
But yeah, so Lenny would have a different type.
Speaker 4 (15:47):
Of you know, a combination of players as well as
people that maybe weren't you know, players.
Speaker 3 (15:53):
Yeah, was there ever a concern about who he was
hanging out with?
Speaker 1 (15:56):
Us?
Speaker 3 (15:57):
Were they they were just guys that you met, mh uh.
Speaker 1 (16:01):
Guys that he knew, Guys that he was friends with.
I mean, we didn't know him as well, so I
might have, you know, one way or another.
Speaker 4 (16:07):
Uh to kind of you know, for me, just guys
that he knew we didn't really know as well, so
U but they were they were his friends and so
I know they wouldn't have been with him if he
didn't you know, he wasn't comfortable around him.
Speaker 3 (16:21):
Right, Okay, all right, Dave you have some questions.
Speaker 5 (16:25):
Yes I do. Thanks again Johnny for taking the time.
Speaker 6 (16:30):
Can you go back a little when you were playing
basketball in high school and uh what you were hearing
or thinking seeing or were or were thinking about lenn
at that time? Was he was he a level above target?
I mean there was a lot of good players. What
(16:50):
what separated him, if anything, from other players?
Speaker 1 (16:53):
Uh?
Speaker 4 (16:54):
You know one the thing the thing that I admired,
like like I'm sure you know, Coach TAP's gotta say
this about We were in the gym all the time,
we were working and trying to get better all the time,
and the thing I knew about him, even though I
didn't see him every day, was that's how he was.
Speaker 1 (17:08):
And I just always.
Speaker 4 (17:09):
Respected guys who really worked on their craft. I mean,
you know when you love the game, and you're passionate
about it. You know you're gonna put whatever time it
takes to become great at it. And and I could
tell he was doing that because there wasn't a time
I didn't see him getting better and better. You can't
improve in this game without the reps about putting in
the time. And so that's the thing I knew about
Lenny was that he had to.
Speaker 1 (17:28):
Have a heck of a work ethic.
Speaker 4 (17:29):
And you look at him physically, I mean, you know,
looking at him physically, you know, you could tell that
he was now the spending time work on his ball skills,
but also you know, in the weight room and so forth.
You could just tell that he had committed to wanting
to be a great player. And I have a great
deal of respect for guys who whatever profession they choose,
when they you know, attack it that way because they
attacking it with a passion. Because he was cool, quick,
(17:54):
and he was sold or.
Speaker 6 (17:55):
Fro Don made a reference a little earlier to some
of the people he may have been hanging out with
more basketball players. Do you remember meeting Brian Tribble And
if so, did you have any thoughts about Brian or
what was there any concern that he was hanging out
with this guy.
Speaker 1 (18:11):
Well, of course, I'm sure that, madam.
Speaker 4 (18:13):
Before you know, probably between tick up ball Down America
University or Barnstorming somewhere, I'm sure we'd probably run across
each other.
Speaker 1 (18:23):
I would venture to say we had.
Speaker 6 (18:25):
Did you remember having anybody having any concerns about him?
Speaker 1 (18:30):
I don't remember anybody really discussing that. You know, that
didn't come out.
Speaker 4 (18:33):
No one came to me and said they had a
concern about him at that time.
Speaker 6 (18:36):
Okay, there was a and we talked a bit about barnstorming.
I write this in the book. I talked with Chris Washburn.
You remember who Chris was, obviously, absolutely yeah, And Chris
tells me the story and I write in the book.
And he recounted that story for the podcast series An
interviewed last week how Lynn introduced him to cocaine on
the barn Storming tour in eighty six. He was with
(18:59):
a guy named Charles Logan and they knocked on his
door to bet one in the morning, and Chris said
he was in bed and he had never used cocaine.
Speaker 5 (19:07):
Before, but it was len Bias.
Speaker 6 (19:09):
He looked up to lend like an idol, and he said,
I'm not going to turned lend down. This went on
for four hours. He said he missed his class the
next morning and he never either. You're probably aware of
what happened to Chris with cocaine. Do you remember Charles Logan?
Do you remember hearing anything about him? Because he's passed away,
he can't confirm it.
Speaker 3 (19:27):
Uh.
Speaker 6 (19:27):
And that's was there any indication at that time that
you saw Lens sorta even on the trip, if you
saw him enough that there was something, you know, where's
he going or what's he doing kind of stuff?
Speaker 1 (19:38):
No, not at all, you know, unlike you know Chris.
Speaker 4 (19:40):
We never stayed in the places we bonsed him, so
we would always drive in, play the game, and then
drive right out. So I never like stayed around hung
out at the hotel we played. I'm headed right back
all the games in Carolina.
Speaker 5 (19:53):
Oh, that's good. Point.
Speaker 4 (19:54):
Longest drive is going to be the probably the longest
drive would be as vial. It was going to be
three and a half hours right after games. Oh, I
just head back and go sleep them on bed.
Speaker 5 (20:01):
Yeah. That the the the gentleman who who ran the
the tournament. We interad him last week.
Speaker 6 (20:08):
He telling great stories about how interactive Line was with
people down there, and how he how.
Speaker 5 (20:13):
He was so engaging with the people, how he.
Speaker 6 (20:16):
Would stay longer than anybody else to sign autographs, and
and and did you see some of that? And if
you did, what what do you recall from those after
those games, if he was doing anything that sort of
set him apart from anyone else.
Speaker 1 (20:28):
No, So he was, That's who he is. I mean,
you know he you know he was.
Speaker 4 (20:31):
I mean he was, like I said, he had gotten
to a point in his career where he developed and
worked really hard to become a great, great player. And
the thing that you admire about him is that that
he always stayed the same from the standpoint of you know,
with people.
Speaker 1 (20:44):
You know, he was always it doesn't surprise, but he
was good with people that that.
Speaker 4 (20:48):
He signed autographs as long as they wanted, or he
would talk to people, you know, if they came by
him and they wanted to, you know, ask a question
something I don't.
Speaker 1 (20:55):
I would never see him.
Speaker 4 (20:56):
I could never see him saying no to an autographs
and I could never see him not giving one some
time that that may have come by and wanted to
speak to him.
Speaker 1 (21:02):
This is not who he was.
Speaker 4 (21:03):
And uh and and yet I don't I didn't see
him change that as as he was continuing to move
forward with success.
Speaker 6 (21:10):
How did you see his death affect a couple perspectives
young basketball players in the DC area?
Speaker 5 (21:18):
Is where you grew up? You grew up in d C. Correct, Yeah?
Speaker 6 (21:22):
Yeah, young players in the area after he died. Also,
you went under play pro ball after he died. Did
you see any impact on players within the NBA? Well,
this happened to Lend. We have to be careful, it
could happen to us. And was there sort of was
there more of an emotional impact, a personal kind of
(21:42):
sadness that you saw within the DC community from it?
Speaker 5 (21:45):
Then?
Speaker 4 (21:46):
Absolute? Definitely a sadness in the d MD. There was
definitely a sadness in that community. Uh, you know, probably
still is to be quite frank, I mean just you know,
just think about who he would have become. I think
everyone carries that, you know with them and just said
that that it ends in such a tragedy.
Speaker 1 (22:04):
So his life.
Speaker 4 (22:05):
But yeah, same thing with being the NBA. I think
it was something that people thought about. I can't recall
any particular stories.
Speaker 1 (22:13):
But for sure.
Speaker 4 (22:14):
I mean, you know, every year of the anniversary of
what happened comes up, whenever year it's the draft, you know,
that story comes up and relive it. So definitely everyone
you know, as I think had an effect on everyone.
And I will say, you know, I think it goes
you know, unknown, or it maybe that it doesn't. But
(22:34):
I mean, how many lives do we think he saved
by what happened? I mean, I think sometimes we overlook
the fact that, you know, a generation of players that
have come behind him. I mean, who knows that that
would have happened to one or more of those players
if it hadn't been for the story of len Bias. So,
you know, talking about leaving the legacy, I mean is
like you said, it's a broad legacy. And that's part
(22:54):
of this legacy too. I think he saved a lot
more lives that will never know because of history and
the fact that we kept his story alive, the way
that Desbon kept alive.
Speaker 6 (23:04):
We in that thought patem we present the title of
the book is born ready a mixed legacy of lend
biased because it is there are people whose lives were saved,
There are peoples whose lives were greatly altered, and that's you're.
Speaker 5 (23:15):
Putting that, you're really capturing that very well.
Speaker 6 (23:17):
Uh left to Grissel told me a story about how
when he came out of when I talked to him
for the book a year or so before the book
came out, he was coming out of a church in
Virginia Beach and a man walked up to him who
he didn't know, and said, you coached Grisel And he
said yes, Diam. He said, did you coach Len Bias?
He said yes, I did. And he said, well, Len
Bias saved my life. He said, what do you mean?
(23:37):
He said, when Len died, I was addicted to cocaine.
I lost my job, I lost my family, all that.
And he said, I stopped using when Len died.
Speaker 1 (23:49):
Did you?
Speaker 2 (23:50):
Uh?
Speaker 6 (23:51):
We did it have any maybe not that dramatic, any
personal impact on you to stay away from drugs or
any of your friends.
Speaker 5 (23:58):
Say, whoa, hey, Len died. That's the big red light
to stop science. I got to be more aware of this.
Speaker 1 (24:04):
Uh no, not in my personal life. You know, that's
not something that I was really interested in, but it
did propel me to when I give like speeches.
Speaker 4 (24:13):
You know, you speak to a lot of basketball camps,
and I always, you know, have a part about drugs
in there because of that.
Speaker 1 (24:19):
I think that's there strictly because of Lenny.
Speaker 4 (24:21):
I wouldn't have used that story and different things of
that nature if it hadn't been for what happened to him.
Speaker 1 (24:28):
So pretty much every time I'll give.
Speaker 4 (24:30):
My you know, so with COVID, we may not be
able to have a camp again this year, but if
I had it, you know, I speak to my kids again,
and every time I give my lecture, I always have
a portion of it about about staying away from drugs,
and I think it's a direct result of what happened
to Lenny.
Speaker 5 (24:45):
Do you actually tell part of Len's story or make
a reference to lend or it's more of a general kind.
Speaker 4 (24:49):
Of more of a general I don't really use I
don't reference Lenny in the stories, you know, I just
kind of, you know, tell tell my story. But it's
I know it's because of memory of my memory of
Lenny is why I do that, Because I probably you know,
doing a basketball camp typically it's you know, about a
lot of things you can help young people growing. But
I made a point to always talk about drugs, and
(25:10):
I think that's directly related to Lenny.
Speaker 6 (25:12):
Dave Dickerson, who was on the team when Lenn died.
You may remember Dave from being a Maryland player. Yes,
he later coached at Tulane, and he tells he was
a Tulane during Hurricane Katrina. And he tells me a
story that I write about in the book that if
you recalled Chulane had to go to I think it
was Texas, A and m They had to pretty much
uproot their lives.
Speaker 5 (25:32):
Everything was very distorted and very unsettled.
Speaker 6 (25:36):
And he told the story of Land and his connection
to being part of that story as a way to
inspire his players. Look, this is a challenge. This is
going to be hard. I work through this. If I
work through this, you can work through this. You your
(25:57):
college coaching career, have you told his story in that perspective?
Have you used him at all talking to some of
your players?
Speaker 1 (26:03):
I definitely have, definitely with my teams.
Speaker 4 (26:05):
You know, I can't say every team, but I definitely
have used this story about the important of staying away
from drugs, understanding that the harm it can cause, and
how this is what happened to one man in his life,
and so you know, most of them because of like
I said, it comes around every year right after the
draft that most of them have heard of them. So
when I start telling him that somebody I played against,
(26:25):
we played at the same time, you know, pick up ball,
and and so when I was telling those stories, it
kind of, I think, brings everything, you know, you know,
it kind of brings it kind of crystallizes it for
all of those guys because they realize, like that, hey,
you actually knew that guy that we kind of only
heard stories about. So you know, you know, it gives
me a little bit of credibility when it comes to
like trying to explain to those guys important that they
(26:47):
need to make sure that they don't you know, you know,
you know, going down the path that could put them
in a position where you know, you never know that
you don't you know, you can end up dying off
of something from something like that.
Speaker 6 (27:00):
When you were playing against him in college, did you
ever step back and say, whoa man, how did he
do that? Was there any moments of marvel? Because you
were a player of the year, I mean, and you
were as established, if not more established as a basketball
player as level, but were there any.
Speaker 5 (27:16):
Moments when either I wish I could do that or
or or look what he just did. I don't know
if I could.
Speaker 3 (27:21):
Ever do that.
Speaker 1 (27:21):
No, absolutely, I just think about times, you know.
Speaker 4 (27:24):
I remember we were playing pickup ball, like a University
of Maryland one time when I was home, and uh,
you know, and they threw him a really really bad pass,
and like one of these passes that you really shouldn't
be able to catch him do anything with. He still
caught it and managed to take the ball all the
way to the room and dunket while he was still
in the air. And I'm just looking around, and I
(27:44):
think I was telling them what I was talking to
one of the players.
Speaker 1 (27:47):
I forget it. It was man ben Keith Gavin to
one of the guys, and I recall it correctly.
Speaker 4 (27:51):
It was like, well, we like to throw him back,
you know, bad passes, because those make them you know,
the best you know, dumps form, because he's able to
still catch him and do stuff that no one else
could do with the basketball and and that and that's right.
I mean, he he was so like I said, he
was such a such a gifted athlete to go along
with his skill set that I just made it was.
It was fun to watch plays like that that you
(28:12):
knew that no one else could do.
Speaker 6 (28:15):
When you think of your history with the Aerie of basketball,
as the college player of the Year, as a professional player,
college coach, and you think of all the impactful stories
that have happened in basketball or in sports during.
Speaker 5 (28:29):
Your lifetime and at the level that you competed in coach,
does any story have compared is it comparable an impact?
Speaker 1 (28:38):
Uh?
Speaker 5 (28:39):
How he died? What did the society the grong? You said,
you think it still had earlier, It's still had some
kind of an impact in the in the area today.
Speaker 1 (28:49):
It really does.
Speaker 5 (28:50):
I don't imagine.
Speaker 4 (28:52):
I'm sorry, I don't think there's any story that has
as much impact as that story.
Speaker 3 (28:56):
Uh.
Speaker 1 (28:58):
It was a tragedy.
Speaker 4 (28:59):
I mean, what happened, no matter what some of the
other stories may possess, you know, the fact that this
man died from what happened in that story, Uh, you know,
just it's very rarely does that happen, and uh, you
know in my lifetime anyway, And so absolutely that's that's
the number one story.
Speaker 1 (29:18):
And uh, there's some great lessons within that story.
Speaker 4 (29:21):
I think that, uh that we can take from, and
that a lot of people have taken from, as you
mentioned before, MH.
Speaker 5 (29:27):
And we can wrap it up with this un the
sun has something else you you make.
Speaker 6 (29:30):
You mentioned a big part of his legacy is it
changed a lot of lives in the positive way, kept
them wasting drugs or whatever.
Speaker 5 (29:38):
Is that his most important legacy? Do you think?
Speaker 6 (29:41):
Uh?
Speaker 1 (29:43):
I think it's right up there.
Speaker 4 (29:44):
I think, you know, when I when I think about him,
and I think about what could have happened during that time,
and and you know afterwards, you know, I just I
just had that that gut feeling, especially having played you know,
beyond college, that that he's that he saved a lot
of lives by what happened. I think the fact that
you could see this strong, talented, you know, just personable man,
(30:09):
you know, succumb to drugs the way he did and
die from him, I think everyone came to realization that
none of us are you know, what's a good word
for we?
Speaker 1 (30:18):
You know, we all aren't.
Speaker 4 (30:21):
None of us are basically invincible. You know, we all
are in a position where we you know, we're not invincible.
And I tell my players that to this day, I say,
you know, you guys, walk around you like your Superman,
but you know we really aren't.
Speaker 1 (30:37):
We all are vulnerable and we all can succumb to something.
Speaker 4 (30:40):
And again, you know, you think about linear situation because
it's no more powerful explosive person and player than he
was during his time, and he was still in his
early twenties, and so if that can happen to him,
it can.
Speaker 1 (30:52):
Happen to anybody.
Speaker 5 (30:53):
I apologize.
Speaker 6 (30:54):
I just think of one more as you're talking. When
you were playing in the NBA was right after Lynn died,
and there's a lot of speculation, and I think some
of it's valid because we'll never know that he could
have been the rivalry to Jordan, that magic was the bird,
that that uh wilt was to go Russell. Did you
(31:16):
hear any talk in the NBA that man, what would
have been like if len Bias would have been playing now?
Speaker 5 (31:22):
Did was there any kind of dreamy dreamy what could
have been kind.
Speaker 1 (31:27):
Of discussion kind of like what you're saying now.
Speaker 4 (31:29):
I mean everyone was, you know, wondering what type of
NBA player, what type of impact he would have had?
Uh And the same thing you said about the rivalry
with Jordan is you know, you know, everyone thought, but
that that could have been a great rivalry, that that
never came to pass. Absolutely, that that kind of was
floating around out there. I can't say who and what,
but that kind of thing was floating around people and and.
Speaker 1 (31:52):
Uh and and it's it makes sense to to think
like that.
Speaker 4 (31:55):
And uh, you know, because he was, you know, he
was on track to become a great, great player, and
it was just a function of you know, how far
would he get? But but you knew he was on
the right path. And uh and Jordan of course had
already started to ha made that turn. And of course
we see where he is now is the greatest player
to ever play our game. And uh, so you know,
you know how good was that playing in college basketball
(32:16):
in the ACC back in the mid eighties and.
Speaker 1 (32:19):
You got Jordan, you got Lenny and the cast of
other players. So it was, uh, it was a phenomenal time.
Speaker 4 (32:25):
And unfortunately, you know, we didn't get to see a
carry on to the NBA for for who you know,
which which had been some amazing you know decade or
a decade or so of those two guys, you know,
being able to play at an amazing level.
Speaker 5 (32:38):
Johnny, thank you, don do you have any follow up.
Speaker 3 (32:40):
Good Thanks Johnny Good, len.
Speaker 7 (32:45):
Bias A Mixed Legacy. The interviews was produced by Daveon
Grady and Don Marcus. Len bias A Mixed Legacy is
distributed by the Eighth Side Network.
Speaker 6 (33:00):
It
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