October 3, 2022 • 47 mins
Gaslighting: the term everyone is talking about. But what does it really mean? Tracy and Cara welcome Carrie Wynn to the virtual red table to hear her story of love turned abuse. Carrie reveals how her ex went from sweeping her off her feet to gaslighting her, and how her childhood in an evangelical cult primed her for his abuse. Learn how to spot and stop gaslighting in this episode of Let’s Red Table That.
Head more from Carrie on her website: carriewynn.com
Hosts Information:
Cara Pressley
@thecareercheerleader Cara’s Instagram
@TheCareerCheerleader Cara’s Facebook
@the1cheering4U Cara’s Twitter
@FeelinSuccessful Cara’s TikTok
Cara’s Website
Tracy T. Rowe
@tracytrowe Tracy’s Instagram
@troweandco Tracy’s Facebook
@tracytrowe Tracy’s Twitter
@tracytrowe Tracy’s TikTok
Tracy’s Website
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hey y'all, Hey, what's up, and welcome to let's Red
Table that. I'm Tracy t. Brow and I'm Calra Pressley
and we are talking about Red Table Talks gas lighting
episode today. I mean, what an eye opener it was.
We're diving deeper and deeper every week. I'm definitely deeper
into gas lighting today. And after watching Red Table Talk
(00:22):
and listening to this episode, you should definitely be able
to successfully spot and stop gas lighting in your life.
That's the key, because who this episode was a lot
gas lighting. First of all, let's just understand what it is, Okay.
Gas Lighting is psychologically manipulating someone into questioning what is
(00:44):
actually true. And today's episode, oh m g Rebecca was
gas lighted to the nth Degree's she not m she was?
She was Oh, I was just watching in are. It
was just a lot and shock and anger. I had
all those emotions. I had all those and of course
(01:07):
empathy just hurts my feelings to know that someone is
intentionally been treating another person. You don't have to do that. Yeah,
I think when it comes to certain relationships where one
person is definitely giving less, that person is definitely the
gas lighter. I feel like they're doing any and everything
they can to just avoid that accountability for themselves, right,
(01:28):
So they are pushing all on you and telling you
how crazy you are. But once it is validated in
your head, you do feel a sense of relief. I
completely related to go back on that. I can't wait
to get into that in the episode because you start
to rethink everything that happened in the relationship. You know,
there's been such a phenomenal light that has been shown
(01:49):
on abuse and all the different ways that people are abused.
Now gas lighting is emotional abuse, right absolutely. I mean
it just reminds you that women are always the one
who are expected to like hold onto the relationship and
sustain the relationship and make it right. Um and I
think so I feel like we're always, you know, quick
to apologize. I feel like a lot of women put
(02:11):
it on a pedestal, you know, they think it's they
end up making a relationship bigger than them, and when
that's where your power is, you want to maintain it
or if that's where you once got some power from.
It's interesting that you say that, Carr, because the one
thing that I think that was interesting in this episode
is that the gas flighting, with the exception of one.
(02:31):
I think they did one scenario where the person that
was the perpetrator was the female. But it is a
universal idea that the people that are experiencing gas lighting
are women and that the men are the ones doing it. Right,
people probably would like to know the numbers. Shout out
to Sonya Holt. She is a person who is local
enrichment and she often talks about domestic violence in the city.
(02:55):
But this piece of like gaslighting. One thing I love
is she always brings examples from both sides, Like it's
not just all men are all women, so she'll bring
in various examples a different event. I love that because,
like you said, men are probably experiencing this. Men are
experiencing this to physical abuse, financial abuse, verbal abuse, emotional abuse.
(03:16):
It happens on both sides. And so I'm grateful to
the person that is enrichment and all over that are
sharing and shining light and spreading awareness, because that's what
we really need. Now it's time to share with our
online Red Table Talk community has to say about this episode,
and they have a lot to say, So how they
do right, guys go to kick it off? Carlin McEwan says,
(03:40):
I'm continually being medically gaslighted by uneducated medical professionals regarding
my endometriosis. I mean, my goodness, she said, it's exhausting
trying to be heard. I can only imagine. Yeah, for sure, Carla, goodnight,
we failed for you. Wow. And Carrie gomen And said
(04:00):
this was a powerful episode that was explained so perfectly.
I have never related so much in my life, not
even while in therapy. Thank you for bringing light to
this subject that so many of us don't speak about.
Oh Carrie, thank you. That's so nice. Chavante Scott says,
thirteen years of this behavior and I'm still trying to
(04:23):
get out of this relationship. This opened my eyes so much.
Thank you for having this talk. And I think that's
one of the things we even said as we were
thinking about this episode is I'm hoping that it really
connects with someone who may not even realize it's happening.
So I'm glad you have that eye opening moment, says CC. Castro.
(04:43):
Acosta said I got all of this and more from
my ex sister. That quote unquote raised me. Sadly. It's
also family members to uh now that is really something.
Gas Lighting does not have any limits. There there's no parameters,
no discrimination, no barriers that part anybody, right. You know,
(05:05):
we talk about cultural a lot, just in society and life,
and the reality is if your culture is very like
toxic and leading, that means everyone probably speaks that same way,
not just the adults or you know, the cousins or
maybe everyone in your family. So protect yourself and just
continue to learn what's going on. Nicky Hardy says, I
(05:26):
wish I'd heard this term ten to fifteen years ago.
I wouldn't have stayed so long. He made me question
every single decision I made, completely wrote me down. But
after two years divorced, I'm slowly getting back to my
better self. Good job, if you were happy for you,
Oh that's good, that's really good. Well we also got
our very first voice message. So this is what Tammy
(05:49):
Mobley has to say about her experience with gas lighting. Hi,
this is Tammy Mowble from Chester, Virginia to mess a
found survivor and advocate. Thank you for the table talker
bringing awareness. In this segment on gas lighting, one or
three women are in an unhealthy relationship. Abuse is about
control and manipulation and as it's a mess of violence survivor.
(06:11):
I was abused for fourteen years mentally and emotionally. There
was time that I didn't think that my feelings were
valid because I was told to stop my crocodile tears.
If I showed any top of your emotion, I was
told that all I had was a pretty face. So
I started believing that if I caught my ex husband
and a lie or he was cheating, he would turn
(06:32):
the tables around to make me think that I was
crazy or that what I saw or heard really didn't happen.
It's so important that many women and men know the
signs and an unhealthy relationship when it pertains to gas fighting.
So thank you once again for bringing this to life.
Thank you for sharing your platform once again. Temmy Moldly,
(06:55):
Oh my goodness, thank you first for sharing and hearing
your voice makes so much impact for me. I mean,
oh yeah, it makes an impact. We need to make
these connections. I think people need to hear that other
people are going through it, and not just for a
little while, she said. Fourteen years fourteen years. Shout out
(07:16):
to Tammy for sharing and being transparent. What you're giving
continues to be a gift to encourage and implore women
to know that they too have the power to heal
beyond the gas lighting and to move forward. Continue your
great work, Tammy, Wow, I'm so proud. Facts. We love
hearing from you, and we want to hear from you.
(07:39):
If you want to be featured on an episode, leave
us a voice message at speak pipe dot com slash
Let's Red Table that we're going to take a quick break,
but when we get back, we'll be joined by one
amazing guest. It's time to welcome our guest to Let's
(08:06):
Red Table. That carry Win has been her formidable years
and what she now identifies as an evangelical cult, and
this is where she first experienced gas lighting. A couple
of years after she graduated college, she found herself in
a new gas lighting relationship, this time with the man
twelve years older than she. The first few months felt
great thanks to her boyfriend's love bombing, but he quickly
(08:29):
turned into an abusive person and after almost a year,
Carrie finally got out thankfully. Carrie has been sharing about
her gas lighting experience as a writer and relationship coach
on her website for years now. To try to help
others out of codependent relationships. Welcome to let's red table
(08:50):
that carry. Thank you, Car and Tracy is great to
be here. Yes, thank you so much. Let's just jump
into it. We're gonna talk about the episode and we're
gonna kick it off with the part of the show
(09:11):
with the moments that made us pause, rewind, and listen again. Wait,
what is going on? So let's talk about lots of
in this episode. Oh my goodness and al When Rebecca
explained that she grew up so accustomed to being gaslighted
by her boyfriend that she actually thought her view of
(09:33):
reality was warped. That was my birthday when those pictures
were taken. But I'm there, and I'm going I know
that I sort of have a weird perception of what
reality is. But I feel like it's not okay for
him to be out with another woman. Okay. Have you
ever been in a situation where you question your own
judgment severely? I can't pick just one, but I would
(09:56):
say that it started from a very early aide. Just
my childhood set me up to be in a situation
where down the road, when anyone gave me pause, I
didn't know what my truth was so with that led
me to a lot of unhealthy relationships. I can relate
to that. I mean just just the wanting to trust someone.
(10:17):
So anytime you've been manipulated in some way, no one
wants to revisit it. And if it happens again, you
definitely do start to think, is there something wrong with me?
What am I doing to to cause this? And I
think the biggest thing that we all learned after talking
about this episode is that it's not you right like
these people and things out I feel like I feel
(10:38):
like they seek out the good qualities and the good traits,
which kind of goes into another another weight what moment.
When Dr Romney explained bread crumbing, she described it as
that's a process called bread crumbing where you get by
un less and less. You used to get a whole
slice of bread. Now you're just getting a few crumbs
and you're calling it a meal. I mean, not even
the crust. It made me mad. Wait, not even the crouss.
(11:00):
Car not even you get a crumb of the crust
and you call that a meal and you feel satisfied
from it. That's the part that's so difficult with bread crumbing.
Car have you had an experience where you've experienced bread crumbing.
I have experienced bread crumbing and like a past relationship,
(11:21):
and at this point it wasn't a relationship, it was
a situation ship, right. I think the person recognized that
I wanted more and because they were aware I wasn't
quite getting it from anywhere else. I don't know why
women sometimes we date like we're married, or date what
one person, you know, hoping that it right all the way,
just all the foot and the feet and then no commitment,
(11:43):
just giving them are all they know. It's because they're
probably dealing with multiple people. They're giving out less and
less and a little bit here or one grand gesture
for the next month or trow. Yeah, I've experienced it,
and it's hurtful because you do start to think you're
wanting too much or something. I can't even really put
(12:03):
it fully into words. I just knew that wasn't or
that you don't deserve anything. Right. Once I started to
really see myself as whole and more and started affirming myself,
as you would say, in other ways, than that relationship
wasn't enough of d loger. So good for you. I'm
glad you got out of the to and recognize that
(12:23):
there's a scene from one of my favorite shows, Crazy
Ex Girlfriend. This is a plug for the show. If
you haven't watched it, watch it. But she has a
song called love Colonels and in the song, she's singing
about how she just wants his love colonels and he'll
give her one there, maybe maybe there. He'll be like, hey,
will you pick up my laundry? And she's, oh, I
got one, And it just shows that blinded and have
(12:45):
those rose colored glasses on. It's just so easy. We'll
take basically anything, and you try to tell us ourselves
that his love anything. Yeah, and in that case, go
pick up my dry cleaning. Was really running errand for me.
But she just when I really realized, oh god, this
is terrible what this is? Before I knew it was
(13:05):
a breadcrumbing term, I used to say, just holding onto
a little bit of something out of fear of having
nothing at all. I can think of one where for
years and this wasn't an abusive situation. It just was
with a man that was very emotionally unavailable. And for
years we were friends. We weren't friends then I thought
we were more than friends. I remember on a birthday,
he sent me flowers and just did little things here
(13:27):
and there that I thought we were going in a
certain direction, and we weren't. In that time, I was
definitely still dating other people, but I think I was
pulling out hope for this one person. Yeah, holding out hope,
the burnt candle burning for the one though that was
the one, and any little thing, yeah, the person we
(13:49):
thought right right, Well, I think that also speaks to
maybe what's going on with ourselves, because I don't think I,
looking back, I don't think I was available either, So
I was seeking that out without realizing. Now that is
really good. That's a really powerful retrospective that you were
not available emotionally either. Therapy two years to figure that
(14:12):
one out. But the answer therapy, one word therapy. Therapy
really does. Absolutely we encourage therapy here, and I'm glad
that Stigma's coming off of therapy now to Carrie, so
that people can say that unashamedly. You know, we need
to be able to rely on professionals to help support
(14:32):
us through certain things in our life. The phrases Rebecca's
ex use and Dr Romney share that are commonly used
by gaslighters Dr Romney, what are more examples of gaslighting?
Stop being so sensitive? I just told you your emotion
is invalid. Let's just do a lightning round here. I'll
read these off and we can say if someone has
(14:53):
used these gaslighting phrases on us, are not okay you
already okay, I'm ready, all right, stop being so sensitive. Check.
I've heard that in the workplace. I've heard that in
the workplace as well. Workplace, both of you. Work place. Okay,
I need an example, give me an example. I just
felt like I was being critiqued anyway, and I was
(15:15):
the only black person in the workplace, so it was
hard for me to have my voice heard or just
be understood, I felt, and they definitely told me I
was overly sensitive in an official write up when we
did our disk assessment. I couldn't believe it was on
the paper. And bless their hearts, I think they thought
that they were helping me. I'm sure they did. I'm
sure they thought that they were giving you productive feedback
(15:37):
that part. I had several very toxic bosses, and there
was a situation where I was advocating for one of
my customers. I just remember him telling me that I
was being sensitive, I was emotional because I was a woman.
Just blamed it on me being a woman, for me
doing what was my job. Okay, okay, so here we go.
(15:57):
Here's another one. You're crazy. Yeah, not that direct. I've
got to know your acting crazy. I feel like we'd
be hard pressed to find a woman that hasn't heard
some iteration of your crazy, of your crazy. Yeah, yeah,
that we do get that. Okay, you must be paranoid.
I have heard this one myself. What about y'all? Check? Yeah,
(16:21):
I love it. Check. So my paranoia you must be paranoid,
was interestingly enough, also workplace, and we were in the
break room and I said something to correct or at
least acknowledge that someone that was in the break room
had made a comment that was racially insensitive. And they
were like, oh, no, Tracy, you're just being paranoid. You know,
(16:43):
stop being so paranoid. No one's out to get you, like,
this isn't about you. And I was like, what the heck,
I'm not paranoid at all. I heard what you said,
and I am going to correct you, or at least
offer the opportunity for you to be corrected. What about you? Mine?
Was not workplay. It was in the relationship with the
older man that I dated that I'm sure we'll get
(17:04):
more into later, but he was actually there were nights
where he would just disappear randomly for nights or even
I remember one time, there's probably two or three days,
and I'm not talking like he went in to the
wilderness to have some spiritual experience. He just wouldn't answer me.
And this was after we were in a very committed relationship.
When he returned to Earth or however you want to
(17:25):
put it out in front of him, and he constantly said,
I was being paranoid. He wasn't doing anything while lo
and behold found out after the relationship he had five
six other girls he was messing around with. Stop not
that for six Okay, this man had to be exhausted,
but we are going to get into that. So are
you on your period? Mm hm oh, listen, I can
(17:49):
relate to this one. I can relate to this one,
and I can't wait to tell you this story. We're ready.
My son said it. Wait what your son said it?
And listen and look at your guys faces, because I'm
going to tell you how he humbled me very quickly.
So I had just brought groceries in the house and
I'm doing my mom thing and I go in my room.
(18:09):
My son was like, are you in your period? And
I'm like, why would you say that? What made you
say that? And I immediately just got I was triggered
and upset. And he was like, because I didn't know
if you wanted me to bring you these in your
room or you want me to take it to the
bathroom where you normally. He literally is putting the groceries away.
So it was such a plot twist. Wow, my heart.
(18:31):
But I was triggered, just like you guys. Wait man,
wait man, white man, are you telling me he was
just bringing you some feminine hygiene products. It sounds like
you have him trained, well trained, very well. Wow, great
he said it. When he said it, I immediately was like,
oh my lord, what sound in my raising. But I
(18:51):
was triggered, and I almost completely took it out on
him until I decided to say, please, please share with
me your perspective as to why you asked me that.
Stop it. Oh my gosh, that is the plot twist
of the century. Okay, thank you, Carrie. All right, let's
see let's go to the next one. Can you take
a joke? Yeah? Or or the I was just joking,
(19:13):
trying to take the onus off the time. It was
just a joke. Can't you take a joke? Yeah. I
was in the car with my ex and we were
driving back and he randomly went on a rant about
how I needed to shave my face and that I
was like super hairy, and I mean, you can see
(19:36):
my face and I just was baffled, and he went
on and on, and it created an insecurity that to
this day. It's still there, even though I went to
my friends and I was like, why would he say this?
And he was like, oh, I'm just joking. I don't
know why you're being so sensitive about it, but it
it came out of nowhere, and it just I remember
(19:56):
going home buying some and I never whack, so I
bought my own at home wax and like burn off
my own skin, like pilling it off. I know. And
it was such a random, out of the blue thing,
but he created an insecurity and then from there I
just started questioning everything about myself. What did you think
(20:20):
of this episode? Was it what you expected or were
you feeling something else? I feel like, I have an
unfair advantage since this is something I've written about and
been versed in for the last few years. So because
I was going to say, even the doctor they brought on,
I actually used to listen to her when I first
started studying narcissism, so I loved how they navigated it.
(20:42):
I thought the actress from The Crown, Rebecca, that story
was heartbreaking and it was just so powerful seeing that
someone even in that position, she's even being duped and
being told that she's not worth it, right, I mean
when she said that she was going on auditions, and
that's the point where you're super vulnerable, You're unsure, right,
and you want the person that's in your corner to
(21:04):
really sure leave you, to be like yeah, good luck,
but you probably won't get it, and support you and
be your fan. What is I mean? That is a
sucker punch right in the gut. If you're in that situation,
you you almost start to try to convince them no,
like in the examples that was I enjoyed that part
of the episode so people could maybe see from the
outside looking in, this is how it looks, right, because
(21:25):
when you love the person, you're looking in their eyes.
I'm sure you can help us get into that carry
like you're looking in their eyes when it's happening, and
you're remembering the person who gave you the pillow talk
and all the great vibes. And the thing is, it
always starts so subtly, right, It's like that classic parable
about the burning frog in the water. You don't know
what's happening. Like imagine you meet someone, you're on a date,
(21:46):
and he's like, baginet to happen. You're crazy. You're like, Okay,
well I'm gonna go. I'm gonna leave my by. Now
we haven't built a relationship yet. But when you're six
months a year, say you're married with kids, and someone
starts with this behavior, you're not gonna be equipped to
deal with it. Okay, I can't wait to get into this.
I have held my peace, So Carrie, let's go. We
(22:06):
want to know more about how you were gaslighted in
the evangelical cult. You grew up in The Evangelical church
as a whole is being critiqued a little more closely
these days, especially by the newest generation. But clearly some
evangelical communities take control of their conslications and step further
(22:27):
than others. How were you gaslighted in your church? So
I would say that it primarily came with how the
women were treated versus the men. And from an early age,
I remember being eleven or twelve, and they would segment us,
so girls one room, boys in another, and basically they
would sit us down and say how we were Jezebels,
(22:51):
we were going to tempt the men, how we couldn't
wear certain clothes, how we couldn't say certain things, and
we were legitimately segmented to where I remember being fifteen
or sixteen and a boy liked me, and it became
the biggest outrage. We didn't even kiss, we didn't even
hold hands. I think I tripped over his foot one
so like the park, but our parents all got called
(23:12):
in a room with the leader of this church or pastor.
It wasn't a conventional church. It was more of this
own small community built this church. So we get brought
in the room. It was me and another friend because
she liked his brother or something on those lines, and
the parents just screaming at us, telling my parents how
I was sending him messages late at night, and we
(23:33):
just got treated as if we had committed the biggest crime.
So from a very early age, I was being told,
you're the reason that boys do this, you are the problem.
He didn't message you you're crazy, even though they pursued us.
Obviously that didn't matter once it came down to it.
How old were you carry? How old was this fifteen
when this part happened. But let me tell you the
(23:55):
best part. The best part was that I wasn't allowed
to talk to These boys were my years and some
of my best friends right like, I couldn't date them.
But these older men that were in the church like banned,
were able to hang out with us on chaperoned and
one of them, one of them, my friend was twelve
and he was twenty two. He pursued her, No one
(24:16):
believed her, her family tried to get him kicked out
of the church. It didn't happen. And then when I
was sixteen, he did the physical things with me and
I ended up going with my dad to the pastor,
and basically I was told that it didn't happen. I
put myself in the situation, and to this day, he
might still be at this church. I'm honestly not sure.
(24:38):
I'm so that I know and I actually told my
story and I know that I actually had a friend
that probably five years ago, said that he went after
his I think friend's little sister who was fifteen, so
he would be what in his thirties at forties at
this point, a predator. Yes, it happened so much more
often than we think. It's like that the church wants.
(25:00):
I don't want to say the church, because that's these
religious groups at times, if not monitor these people abusing
their they're abusing power, they're abusing power amongst themselves. Yeah, hush, hush.
And so I in that situation, I remember he took
me to a cave, which is the creepiest thing ever.
(25:20):
And I came back home and I was like covered
in dirt, and I remember no one asked me what happened,
and I just was like, I did something wrong. I
put myself in this situation. I thought, you's my friend.
They shamed right on, oh my gosh, into guiltying yourself,
no accountability on anyone else's part. Complete power, and that
(25:42):
you know, that was one of many yea. And the
fact that it's happening potentially happening still in the church,
and now we site church how are we distinguishing the
difference between church and cult in your mind? I would
say that it's difficult. But this was more of a
(26:04):
small segment of people who left the quote unquote think
of the normal and Christian Church, Baptist Church, whatever. They
left this to create their own church because their beliefs
were superior and the other churches didn't have it right.
We have the only true way to get to Heaven.
Everyone else is wrong, and then it's that control everyone
(26:26):
from there. Yeah, that's how cults are made, culte one
on one and this literally that behavior early on, being
basically shamed and then punished and not being seen or
affirmed in the experiences that you had led you to
evolve as you matured and having these horrific relationships in
(26:49):
your future. Can you tell us about your relationship with
your ex who gaslighted you and how the relationships started
and then turned abusive. I can, and I would say
before that there was definitely a pattern, and not every
single one. I had perfectly good relationships, but I definitely
didn't know how to set any kind of boundaries with
(27:11):
the men in my life, and I had situations that
looking back, we're not necessarily consensual, but I would always
blame myself, push it aside, think it was normal. I
would say, legally, I was of age, right, but there's
a reason why he was in his late thirties going
after someone in their early twenties. So we actually worked together.
(27:32):
And I had started this job, on my first big
city job outside of college, and I remember it was
the first day of orientation and he walked through the
door and I can still he was wearing a yellow
shirt like these weird blue pants and aman bun and
I remember seeing him and instantly this voice in my
(27:54):
head said he's dangerous. Stay away in a way that
was basically like this instant year electricity attraction. And I
remember him looking at me and it was like he
felt it too, And within a few days we were dating.
I remember he like swept me off my feet. He
met some friends. They thought he was amazing. We had
this magical night and he looked at me and he said,
(28:17):
You're everything I've ever wanted, and it was like this
just washing over me. It was like the love I'd
always dreamed of out of fairy tales. So for about
two three months, everything was perfect. I met his friend group,
everyone welcomed me with open arms. We went on these
special weekend trips and getaways, and then there was a
(28:40):
night when we went to a party and I remember
we were driving and he he just seemed off. He
seemed angry, and I was like, what's going on and
he was like nothing, and I was like, Okay. We
get to the party, he's being strange, and then we
went to leave and he had maybe a couple of beers,
so I was like, hey, I'll drive. I haven't had
anything to drink. And we get in the car and
he started screaming at me that I'm a slut, that
(29:03):
I'm flirting with everyone, that I threw myself as a
guy at the party, and he ends up smashing my
head against the window. And we drive home, and the
next day we wake up and he's acting like everything
is normal. I remember he kissed my head and was
being super sweet, and I pulled away and I just said,
do you realize what happened last night? And he looked
(29:26):
horrified and confused, and he said no, and I told him,
and he acted so ashamed. He said that he had
no recollection of it. And by the end of it,
I had separated the two incidents in my mind where
it almost didn't happen. I was like, I can't even comprehend.
I just disassociated and was like, there's no way that
(29:46):
he would do this to me. The normal sweet person's back,
everything's gonna go back to normal. Well, you also just
want to get back to the good stuff like that
we could work. I know he's been stressed right before
you got home. What were you thinking in the car?
That was the first time I've been emotionally abused prior,
(30:09):
but that was the first time someone was that aggressive
towards me, So I honestly think I wasn't shore. I
remember driving and just feeling this coldness like in me,
and I'm just I think denial. It was instant. Just
get home, then we'll deal with this tomorrow. And I honestly,
at that point in my life, I've gotten so good
(30:31):
at compartmentalizing things that I just put it aside and
was like, I can't I can't accept this because if
I accept this, that means that everything else was a lie.
And I thought when I wasn't ready to do that.
(30:53):
We talked a little bit already about how Rebecca thought
she didn't have a grasp of reality because of being
gas light it for years. Her ex was just so
brazen in his last by the end. So, Carrie, were
there times that your ex guests letted you even about
things that should have been so obviously incorrect. Yes, absolutely,
there were several that I had definitive proof of. I
(31:17):
think it was Christmas for New Year's and we got
in an argument and he pushed me on the ground
and I was in shock, and my friends saw it.
And after that I ended up spending the night at
of friends and then seeing him the next day and
he just flat outside that didn't happen. He slipped like
I didn't touch you. Oh my gosh, I know. And
(31:39):
then there was a second time where he actually was
very financially abusive as well, and I ended up spending
thousands of dollars. And keep in mind we had the
same job. It wasn't as if I was out earning
him by a lot of money, but basically we would
go on trips and I would spend money on everything.
And it was strange because I honestly didn't notice it
at first. It was very small here and there, and
(32:00):
then I ended up pulling my bank statement because I
was like something. I know he's not really contributing. I
started to realize it, and I wrote down line by line.
I remember, with my pen, line by line, wrote everything out.
I'm like nine one whatever. You went to the store
and I paid for all the groceries, presented him with this,
and he just sat there and said, this isn't this
(32:22):
isn't right. You made this up. You're being so dramatic. No,
I just wouldn't even accept the hard truth in his hand.
It's the lack of accountability and audacity. For me, I
just cannot believe. I can't believe it. Actually, I guess
I can't. I can't believe. I just want to acknowledge
how much I applaud you for not being on an
(32:44):
episode of Snapped. Okay, that's part I really did, because
just hearing this, it's just I'm boiling because I'm just
so angry knowing that someone is doing this another person intentionally.
I was angry for a very long time. There's a
(33:04):
reason that I started doing what I do and writing
about this and working with the other victims. I hadn't
found anything else in my life I was as passionate
about until I went through it and realized this is
happening a lot more than we think there really is.
I'm so glad that you were able to unpack it
and see the patterns and want to change. That is key,
(33:24):
because otherwise people just continue to look for that same
bread crumbing up overadalming and just pieces of and then
the wishful thinking of just hoping things will change, and
you look up it it's been years and finding a
purpose that could be a positive outcome from all of
this is also a true gift, and that you're helping
(33:45):
other people. Thank you, Thank you. That's the one silver
lining of the Honestly, it's the silver lining of the experience.
I ask you before Tracy goes onto her next piece,
how is your faith after having, you know, the cult,
experience with the church and then having the relationship, do
you have a faith based that you feel is more
successful that you've been able to establish for yourself since
(34:07):
you left them. That's a great question. I would like
to say I'm spiritually homeless or agnostic, but I am
not against religion in any way. I'm against some of
the things that come out of it and some of
the abuse that we've seen in some of the bigger
organized religions, but I would say I'm still very open
to different spiritual paths, but as of now, I haven't
(34:31):
found one that's specifically that I would put it into it.
If that makes sense. No, and I respect that, and
I'm glad to hear it because I know this. Sometimes
people are just turned off altogether absolutely even want to
So I'm glad that you are open, and I hope
that you just find that space, whatever that is. Thank you.
Dr Romney made a very important distinction at the Red
(34:53):
Table between liars and gas lighters. She said, you can
bring a liar around when you bring evidence. A gas
lighter will double down on their deceit when you catch them,
and they'll turn it into your crazy. Can you tell
us about a time when you went on vacation and
he tried to deny his financial abuse this joker. I'm
(35:14):
telling you absolutely there is a happy ending to this story,
so don't worry. This wasn't the end of my dating life. Goodness.
We had several situations where we would go on trips.
I don't even know if I want to call it
a vacation, because you know I was I was the
one paying for everything, So we can really do really
(35:34):
lavish trips. It was vacation. He was on vacation when
I was supplying his life habits, so that was great.
But the thing is, if he were to admit that
I was paying for everything and that he wasn't contributing
to the relationship, the gig would be up right, Like
then I realized, oh, I'm right, which is a validation
(35:55):
he doesn't want me, and like realization he doesn't want
me to have, so there will There were several ffs
where he would forget his credit card and then he
would tell me, oh, I'll get just pay it'll be
it'll be fine, whatever, and then later I would bring
it up and he would just say no, like we
went half on that, like I'm not financially abusing you,
(36:16):
I'm contributing. He would constantly say he contributed, and I
even at one point called him out because I said,
you don't even contribute with your friends, and he tried
to tell me that he did contribute because he brought
the bongo drums and contributed to the musical creative aspect
of the gatherings. Okay, okay, I mean yeah, the bonges. Okay.
(36:39):
I was like, what like that sounded like a professional
bongo player, like he should have been told him with
it's a percussionist. Absolutely not, absolutely not. I contributed. I
brought the bongos. No your bongos, sir. But that was
the thing. No accountability. He's somehow sputted to where he
genuinely projected that conviction that he was contributing. And I
(37:03):
was like, how do you argue with the bongos? I
don't know. What can you say with the bongos? Dude?
What is your deal? He thought he was the probably
did he did? He thought he was bringing that talent
everyone gather around. Did you meet his parents? Scary? I
met his mother, who was quite narcissistic as well, which
(37:26):
I'm sure is where some of this came from. He
didn't have a relationship with his father. That is because
I was like, it's either one of two things. He's
either like a sociopath and his parents are done with
him and they don't even know he is exerting his
control because he had none of That's what happened was
a chip off the block. Fix it lord, Okay, Carrie,
(37:51):
When you were able to finally see your expert who
he was and what he was what was that like
for you? I feel like it was a bunch of
little things. But I remember I had a trip planned
with my best friend and I got away for a weekend.
And I know that sounds so small, but we went
(38:12):
to Nashville. I went to this concert of a small
musician I love, and I ended up front and center
stage and he like threw me a guitar pick, and
I just remember standing there and I was having this
beautiful life moment and I thought to myself, this is
not going to exist if I don't leave my ex.
I I just snapped in a place and I felt
(38:35):
this piece and I felt like myself again. I knew
not to end things on right then and there, so
I waited till we got back. I made sure that
his roommates were home, and I went and I ended things.
And I have never had someone react so strangely in
my entire life. And I remember sitting on the bed
and I had constructed a very I'm still to my core,
(38:57):
I am kind even breaking up with someone like this,
I do it. I'm not. I could have said so
many things, but ultimately I just said, I'm not myself
with you. I don't feel free I don't feel supported,
and I'm going to go be with someone who makes
me feel that way. And he kind of fought for it,
and then it was like a switch and he just
stands up and he starts cleaning his room and throwing
(39:20):
stuff in a bag. And I sat there and I
slowly got a few things I still had in the room.
I went to leave and I got in my car,
and he walked by to go to the trash and
he looked back at me. And I have never, at
any other point in my life had someone look at
me like they wanted to kill me. Like in his eyes.
(39:40):
I've never seen such hatred. Just it was absolutely chilling.
Like to this day, I can still remember how it was.
I bet because now he's thinking, I have to go
start with someone else. That is so scary. Had you
had any therapy at that point. No, I had not
had any therapy at that point. So this is how
(40:01):
I figured out what was happening is I had started
googling his behaviors and at the time, honestly, there wasn't
a lot about narraticism. And I found information and I
started reading people's stories and I went down this rabbit hole.
I was validated. I was like, other people are experiencing this,
This is not normal. I'd had relationships. I knew that
something was off, and the number one thing I read
(40:23):
was to make sure that I planned how I was
going to leave and make sure that I wasn't alone.
And the good thing is we weren't out of stage
where we lived together. We didn't have kids, which made
it a lot easier for me than a lot of
other victims who don't have it that easy. Yeah. Yeah,
where they're literally financially intertwined, or they have children, or
they occupy a space that they share, that's that's important. Gosh, wow,
(40:50):
you were so brave. I thank you. Right, there was
no option. I think it was just there was no
I knew if I didn't leave, I would die. You
would have and if you would have died physically, there
is an internal death that can happen when you're minimized constantly.
And what I heard with the concert experience was like
you finally got outside in the sun. You were like, so,
(41:13):
this is what it's like to be free and have
fresh air, and to have some light in my life
and some joy in my heart. I could breathe again
for the first time in a long time, and after
a while you don't think it's possible. I feel like
you start to think, like us, this is just they're
right right. The opening theme music, too Snapped is just
(41:36):
running in loops in my head. I'm telling you, Tracy,
I feel like you're gonna snap for me. I feel
like there's a decade later. Don't don't let me go there.
It's crazy. It's good. I wasn't in your friend group
(41:56):
at the time. Okay, I mean, I'm all about peace,
but there's something as this man has earned okay and greed.
Dr Romney had some very clear advice for people getting
out of relationships with narcissists and gas lighters. She said,
when people are in their post gas lighting, post narcissistic phase,
I prescribe a twelve month detox. Absolutely no relationships, no sex,
(42:19):
get a vibrator, call it a day, but you are
not touching anyone. You need to find you. You need
to figure out what kind of pizza you're like. You
need to figure out what music you really do like.
You need to figure out what temperature you want. That
thermisy susceptible is the toy for me. I love it.
That's why I love about Dr Romney. She pulls no punches.
(42:40):
What advice do you have cared for people experiencing gas lighting?
M I was gonna say, I don't think I heard
that from Dr Romney when I ended things, so I
can't say I followed the same advice, but I will
say it was a year before I was in a
committed relationship again, so at least half of the way there.
(43:01):
But I would say it's hard to give advice if
someone doesn't know that they're in this situation. So I
would just say, if something fells off, listen to your gut. Luckily,
we live in a day and age when there's a
lot of information available on the internet, even now on
apps like Instagram, TikTok, anything, there's a lot of people
(43:21):
bringing awareness to this, whether it's gaslighting, narcissism, psychological abuse.
So I would just say, if you feel like something's off,
start researching what's happening, and you might find that someone
else has that advice, or you can get validated that
they're going through the same thing, and then from there
you can start planning what you're gonna do next. Because
I think half the battle or almost the full battle
(43:43):
is even recognizing what's happening, right, that's good advice. Of course,
we're going to wind down soon, but we have to
ask you before we hit out, Carrie, what is life
like with this happy ending? You share that it's it's
successful so far. Yes, so well, I have been very well.
I actually just got married and thank you, thank you.
(44:08):
It was amazing. We've been together almost five years, so
he was absolutely amazing. We met and I was just
starting therapy. I was having PTSD and he was so
supportive of everything. And I don't want to credit someone
else for my healing, but I will say that having
a partner who understood it took the time to really
(44:31):
understand my trauma. He hadn't dated anyone who had gone
through that, and he took the time to figure out
why I was maybe projecting things from the past on him,
and how to really aid in my healing and be supportive.
And it was absolutely amazing. So now we have an
amazing life together. We love to travel. We have a
Golden Retriever that's just the fluffiest at all. But yes,
(44:54):
but I would just say that I think so many
people can get in a situation where they think this
is it. And I would just say I did get
to a place where I was happy and content to
be alone and that it sounds so cliche, but I
kid you not. That's when I met my husband around
the same time, because you had found your your whole.
(45:16):
I've made yourself whole, so you weren't looking for someone
else to fill you up and make you whole. That
we're on your own, a whole person, so you can
bring your whole self to a relationship and be healthy
and happy. That for you, Yes, I love that. Thank
you so much. Tracy and Carol, Oh my gosh, it's
feels like therapy for me or you, Oh my god.
I mean, and I could talk to you so we
(45:39):
could keep talking. Yea happy And we don't want we
don't want to wear you out. But we've loved, love
having you here. You have been just such a phenomenal
guest with us. Thank you so much. I will enjoy it.
And if my story can help anyone out there, then
once again it's worth it. Where can people find you though, Yeah,
because you're doing a good work. Yes, thank you. I
(46:02):
have a blog, but I primarily write on medium. You
can just search for me. Carry when c A R R, I, E, W,
Y and N and then otherwise I'm on Instagram Carrie
Underscore when Musings. Thank you for coming to the Virtual
Red Table. It was great to be here. We want
to know how you're feeling about this new season of
(46:25):
Red Table Talk. We are open to talk about anything
with you all, so please send in your questions at
Let's Red Table that a red Table talk dot com.
And speaking of listeners, we want to thank you. Thank
you so much for listening. Make sure you subscribe on
I Heart Radio app, and please rate this podcast on
Apple podcast Rate us up five. We'll be back next
(46:48):
week for another episode of Let's Red Table That. A
big thank you to our executive producers Jada Pinkett Smith,
Ellen Rackitton and Fallon Jethrow. And thank you to our
producer Kyla Canru and our associate producer Yolanda Chow. And finally,
thank you to our sound engineers Calvin Baylis and Devin Donneghy.
(47:11):
We love you. Let's Red Table, Let's Red Table, Let's
Red Table, Let's Red Table That Okay? Is that the
church version? Okay
Hey y'all, Hey, what's up, and welcome to let's Red
Table that. I'm Tracy t. Brow and I'm Calra Pressley
and we are talking about Red Table Talks gas lighting
episode today. I mean, what an eye opener it was.
We're diving deeper and deeper every week. I'm definitely deeper
into gas lighting today. And after watching Red Table Talk
(00:22):
and listening to this episode, you should definitely be able
to successfully spot and stop gas lighting in your life.
That's the key, because who this episode was a lot
gas lighting. First of all, let's just understand what it is, Okay.
Gas Lighting is psychologically manipulating someone into questioning what is
(00:44):
actually true. And today's episode, oh m g Rebecca was
gas lighted to the nth Degree's she not m she was?
She was Oh, I was just watching in are. It
was just a lot and shock and anger. I had
all those emotions. I had all those and of course
(01:07):
empathy just hurts my feelings to know that someone is
intentionally been treating another person. You don't have to do that. Yeah,
I think when it comes to certain relationships where one
person is definitely giving less, that person is definitely the
gas lighter. I feel like they're doing any and everything
they can to just avoid that accountability for themselves, right,
(01:28):
So they are pushing all on you and telling you
how crazy you are. But once it is validated in
your head, you do feel a sense of relief. I
completely related to go back on that. I can't wait
to get into that in the episode because you start
to rethink everything that happened in the relationship. You know,
there's been such a phenomenal light that has been shown
(01:49):
on abuse and all the different ways that people are abused.
Now gas lighting is emotional abuse, right absolutely. I mean
it just reminds you that women are always the one
who are expected to like hold onto the relationship and
sustain the relationship and make it right. Um and I
think so I feel like we're always, you know, quick
to apologize. I feel like a lot of women put
(02:11):
it on a pedestal, you know, they think it's they
end up making a relationship bigger than them, and when
that's where your power is, you want to maintain it
or if that's where you once got some power from.
It's interesting that you say that, Carr, because the one
thing that I think that was interesting in this episode
is that the gas flighting, with the exception of one.
(02:31):
I think they did one scenario where the person that
was the perpetrator was the female. But it is a
universal idea that the people that are experiencing gas lighting
are women and that the men are the ones doing it. Right,
people probably would like to know the numbers. Shout out
to Sonya Holt. She is a person who is local
enrichment and she often talks about domestic violence in the city.
(02:55):
But this piece of like gaslighting. One thing I love
is she always brings examples from both sides, Like it's
not just all men are all women, so she'll bring
in various examples a different event. I love that because,
like you said, men are probably experiencing this. Men are
experiencing this to physical abuse, financial abuse, verbal abuse, emotional abuse.
(03:16):
It happens on both sides. And so I'm grateful to
the person that is enrichment and all over that are
sharing and shining light and spreading awareness, because that's what
we really need. Now it's time to share with our
online Red Table Talk community has to say about this episode,
and they have a lot to say, So how they
do right, guys go to kick it off? Carlin McEwan says,
(03:40):
I'm continually being medically gaslighted by uneducated medical professionals regarding
my endometriosis. I mean, my goodness, she said, it's exhausting
trying to be heard. I can only imagine. Yeah, for sure, Carla, goodnight,
we failed for you. Wow. And Carrie gomen And said
(04:00):
this was a powerful episode that was explained so perfectly.
I have never related so much in my life, not
even while in therapy. Thank you for bringing light to
this subject that so many of us don't speak about.
Oh Carrie, thank you. That's so nice. Chavante Scott says,
thirteen years of this behavior and I'm still trying to
(04:23):
get out of this relationship. This opened my eyes so much.
Thank you for having this talk. And I think that's
one of the things we even said as we were
thinking about this episode is I'm hoping that it really
connects with someone who may not even realize it's happening.
So I'm glad you have that eye opening moment, says CC. Castro.
(04:43):
Acosta said I got all of this and more from
my ex sister. That quote unquote raised me. Sadly. It's
also family members to uh now that is really something.
Gas Lighting does not have any limits. There there's no parameters,
no discrimination, no barriers that part anybody, right. You know,
(05:05):
we talk about cultural a lot, just in society and life,
and the reality is if your culture is very like
toxic and leading, that means everyone probably speaks that same way,
not just the adults or you know, the cousins or
maybe everyone in your family. So protect yourself and just
continue to learn what's going on. Nicky Hardy says, I
(05:26):
wish I'd heard this term ten to fifteen years ago.
I wouldn't have stayed so long. He made me question
every single decision I made, completely wrote me down. But
after two years divorced, I'm slowly getting back to my
better self. Good job, if you were happy for you,
Oh that's good, that's really good. Well we also got
our very first voice message. So this is what Tammy
(05:49):
Mobley has to say about her experience with gas lighting. Hi,
this is Tammy Mowble from Chester, Virginia to mess a
found survivor and advocate. Thank you for the table talker
bringing awareness. In this segment on gas lighting, one or
three women are in an unhealthy relationship. Abuse is about
control and manipulation and as it's a mess of violence survivor.
(06:11):
I was abused for fourteen years mentally and emotionally. There
was time that I didn't think that my feelings were
valid because I was told to stop my crocodile tears.
If I showed any top of your emotion, I was
told that all I had was a pretty face. So
I started believing that if I caught my ex husband
and a lie or he was cheating, he would turn
(06:32):
the tables around to make me think that I was
crazy or that what I saw or heard really didn't happen.
It's so important that many women and men know the
signs and an unhealthy relationship when it pertains to gas fighting.
So thank you once again for bringing this to life.
Thank you for sharing your platform once again. Temmy Moldly,
(06:55):
Oh my goodness, thank you first for sharing and hearing
your voice makes so much impact for me. I mean,
oh yeah, it makes an impact. We need to make
these connections. I think people need to hear that other
people are going through it, and not just for a
little while, she said. Fourteen years fourteen years. Shout out
(07:16):
to Tammy for sharing and being transparent. What you're giving
continues to be a gift to encourage and implore women
to know that they too have the power to heal
beyond the gas lighting and to move forward. Continue your
great work, Tammy, Wow, I'm so proud. Facts. We love
hearing from you, and we want to hear from you.
(07:39):
If you want to be featured on an episode, leave
us a voice message at speak pipe dot com slash
Let's Red Table that we're going to take a quick break,
but when we get back, we'll be joined by one
amazing guest. It's time to welcome our guest to Let's
(08:06):
Red Table. That carry Win has been her formidable years
and what she now identifies as an evangelical cult, and
this is where she first experienced gas lighting. A couple
of years after she graduated college, she found herself in
a new gas lighting relationship, this time with the man
twelve years older than she. The first few months felt
great thanks to her boyfriend's love bombing, but he quickly
(08:29):
turned into an abusive person and after almost a year,
Carrie finally got out thankfully. Carrie has been sharing about
her gas lighting experience as a writer and relationship coach
on her website for years now. To try to help
others out of codependent relationships. Welcome to let's red table
(08:50):
that carry. Thank you, Car and Tracy is great to
be here. Yes, thank you so much. Let's just jump
into it. We're gonna talk about the episode and we're
gonna kick it off with the part of the show
(09:11):
with the moments that made us pause, rewind, and listen again. Wait,
what is going on? So let's talk about lots of
in this episode. Oh my goodness and al When Rebecca
explained that she grew up so accustomed to being gaslighted
by her boyfriend that she actually thought her view of
(09:33):
reality was warped. That was my birthday when those pictures
were taken. But I'm there, and I'm going I know
that I sort of have a weird perception of what
reality is. But I feel like it's not okay for
him to be out with another woman. Okay. Have you
ever been in a situation where you question your own
judgment severely? I can't pick just one, but I would
(09:56):
say that it started from a very early aide. Just
my childhood set me up to be in a situation
where down the road, when anyone gave me pause, I
didn't know what my truth was so with that led
me to a lot of unhealthy relationships. I can relate
to that. I mean just just the wanting to trust someone.
(10:17):
So anytime you've been manipulated in some way, no one
wants to revisit it. And if it happens again, you
definitely do start to think, is there something wrong with me?
What am I doing to to cause this? And I
think the biggest thing that we all learned after talking
about this episode is that it's not you right like
these people and things out I feel like I feel
(10:38):
like they seek out the good qualities and the good traits,
which kind of goes into another another weight what moment.
When Dr Romney explained bread crumbing, she described it as
that's a process called bread crumbing where you get by
un less and less. You used to get a whole
slice of bread. Now you're just getting a few crumbs
and you're calling it a meal. I mean, not even
the crust. It made me mad. Wait, not even the crouss.
(11:00):
Car not even you get a crumb of the crust
and you call that a meal and you feel satisfied
from it. That's the part that's so difficult with bread crumbing.
Car have you had an experience where you've experienced bread crumbing.
I have experienced bread crumbing and like a past relationship,
(11:21):
and at this point it wasn't a relationship, it was
a situation ship, right. I think the person recognized that
I wanted more and because they were aware I wasn't
quite getting it from anywhere else. I don't know why
women sometimes we date like we're married, or date what
one person, you know, hoping that it right all the way,
just all the foot and the feet and then no commitment,
(11:43):
just giving them are all they know. It's because they're
probably dealing with multiple people. They're giving out less and
less and a little bit here or one grand gesture
for the next month or trow. Yeah, I've experienced it,
and it's hurtful because you do start to think you're
wanting too much or something. I can't even really put
(12:03):
it fully into words. I just knew that wasn't or
that you don't deserve anything. Right. Once I started to
really see myself as whole and more and started affirming myself,
as you would say, in other ways, than that relationship
wasn't enough of d loger. So good for you. I'm
glad you got out of the to and recognize that
(12:23):
there's a scene from one of my favorite shows, Crazy
Ex Girlfriend. This is a plug for the show. If
you haven't watched it, watch it. But she has a
song called love Colonels and in the song, she's singing
about how she just wants his love colonels and he'll
give her one there, maybe maybe there. He'll be like, hey,
will you pick up my laundry? And she's, oh, I
got one, And it just shows that blinded and have
(12:45):
those rose colored glasses on. It's just so easy. We'll
take basically anything, and you try to tell us ourselves
that his love anything. Yeah, and in that case, go
pick up my dry cleaning. Was really running errand for me.
But she just when I really realized, oh god, this
is terrible what this is? Before I knew it was
(13:05):
a breadcrumbing term, I used to say, just holding onto
a little bit of something out of fear of having
nothing at all. I can think of one where for
years and this wasn't an abusive situation. It just was
with a man that was very emotionally unavailable. And for
years we were friends. We weren't friends then I thought
we were more than friends. I remember on a birthday,
he sent me flowers and just did little things here
(13:27):
and there that I thought we were going in a
certain direction, and we weren't. In that time, I was
definitely still dating other people, but I think I was
pulling out hope for this one person. Yeah, holding out hope,
the burnt candle burning for the one though that was
the one, and any little thing, yeah, the person we
(13:49):
thought right right, Well, I think that also speaks to
maybe what's going on with ourselves, because I don't think I,
looking back, I don't think I was available either, So
I was seeking that out without realizing. Now that is
really good. That's a really powerful retrospective that you were
not available emotionally either. Therapy two years to figure that
(14:12):
one out. But the answer therapy, one word therapy. Therapy
really does. Absolutely we encourage therapy here, and I'm glad
that Stigma's coming off of therapy now to Carrie, so
that people can say that unashamedly. You know, we need
to be able to rely on professionals to help support
(14:32):
us through certain things in our life. The phrases Rebecca's
ex use and Dr Romney share that are commonly used
by gaslighters Dr Romney, what are more examples of gaslighting?
Stop being so sensitive? I just told you your emotion
is invalid. Let's just do a lightning round here. I'll
read these off and we can say if someone has
(14:53):
used these gaslighting phrases on us, are not okay you
already okay, I'm ready, all right, stop being so sensitive. Check.
I've heard that in the workplace. I've heard that in
the workplace as well. Workplace, both of you. Work place. Okay,
I need an example, give me an example. I just
felt like I was being critiqued anyway, and I was
(15:15):
the only black person in the workplace, so it was
hard for me to have my voice heard or just
be understood, I felt, and they definitely told me I
was overly sensitive in an official write up when we
did our disk assessment. I couldn't believe it was on
the paper. And bless their hearts, I think they thought
that they were helping me. I'm sure they did. I'm
sure they thought that they were giving you productive feedback
(15:37):
that part. I had several very toxic bosses, and there
was a situation where I was advocating for one of
my customers. I just remember him telling me that I
was being sensitive, I was emotional because I was a woman.
Just blamed it on me being a woman, for me
doing what was my job. Okay, okay, so here we go.
(15:57):
Here's another one. You're crazy. Yeah, not that direct. I've
got to know your acting crazy. I feel like we'd
be hard pressed to find a woman that hasn't heard
some iteration of your crazy, of your crazy. Yeah, yeah,
that we do get that. Okay, you must be paranoid.
I have heard this one myself. What about y'all? Check? Yeah,
(16:21):
I love it. Check. So my paranoia you must be paranoid,
was interestingly enough, also workplace, and we were in the
break room and I said something to correct or at
least acknowledge that someone that was in the break room
had made a comment that was racially insensitive. And they
were like, oh, no, Tracy, you're just being paranoid. You know,
(16:43):
stop being so paranoid. No one's out to get you, like,
this isn't about you. And I was like, what the heck,
I'm not paranoid at all. I heard what you said,
and I am going to correct you, or at least
offer the opportunity for you to be corrected. What about you? Mine?
Was not workplay. It was in the relationship with the
older man that I dated that I'm sure we'll get
(17:04):
more into later, but he was actually there were nights
where he would just disappear randomly for nights or even
I remember one time, there's probably two or three days,
and I'm not talking like he went in to the
wilderness to have some spiritual experience. He just wouldn't answer me.
And this was after we were in a very committed relationship.
When he returned to Earth or however you want to
(17:25):
put it out in front of him, and he constantly said,
I was being paranoid. He wasn't doing anything while lo
and behold found out after the relationship he had five
six other girls he was messing around with. Stop not
that for six Okay, this man had to be exhausted,
but we are going to get into that. So are
you on your period? Mm hm oh, listen, I can
(17:49):
relate to this one. I can relate to this one,
and I can't wait to tell you this story. We're ready.
My son said it. Wait what your son said it?
And listen and look at your guys faces, because I'm
going to tell you how he humbled me very quickly.
So I had just brought groceries in the house and
I'm doing my mom thing and I go in my room.
(18:09):
My son was like, are you in your period? And
I'm like, why would you say that? What made you
say that? And I immediately just got I was triggered
and upset. And he was like, because I didn't know
if you wanted me to bring you these in your
room or you want me to take it to the
bathroom where you normally. He literally is putting the groceries away.
So it was such a plot twist. Wow, my heart.
(18:31):
But I was triggered, just like you guys. Wait man,
wait man, white man, are you telling me he was
just bringing you some feminine hygiene products. It sounds like
you have him trained, well trained, very well. Wow, great
he said it. When he said it, I immediately was like,
oh my lord, what sound in my raising. But I
(18:51):
was triggered, and I almost completely took it out on
him until I decided to say, please, please share with
me your perspective as to why you asked me that.
Stop it. Oh my gosh, that is the plot twist
of the century. Okay, thank you, Carrie. All right, let's
see let's go to the next one. Can you take
a joke? Yeah? Or or the I was just joking,
(19:13):
trying to take the onus off the time. It was
just a joke. Can't you take a joke? Yeah. I
was in the car with my ex and we were
driving back and he randomly went on a rant about
how I needed to shave my face and that I
was like super hairy, and I mean, you can see
(19:36):
my face and I just was baffled, and he went
on and on, and it created an insecurity that to
this day. It's still there, even though I went to
my friends and I was like, why would he say this?
And he was like, oh, I'm just joking. I don't
know why you're being so sensitive about it, but it
it came out of nowhere, and it just I remember
(19:56):
going home buying some and I never whack, so I
bought my own at home wax and like burn off
my own skin, like pilling it off. I know. And
it was such a random, out of the blue thing,
but he created an insecurity and then from there I
just started questioning everything about myself. What did you think
(20:20):
of this episode? Was it what you expected or were
you feeling something else? I feel like, I have an
unfair advantage since this is something I've written about and
been versed in for the last few years. So because
I was going to say, even the doctor they brought on,
I actually used to listen to her when I first
started studying narcissism, so I loved how they navigated it.
(20:42):
I thought the actress from The Crown, Rebecca, that story
was heartbreaking and it was just so powerful seeing that
someone even in that position, she's even being duped and
being told that she's not worth it, right, I mean
when she said that she was going on auditions, and
that's the point where you're super vulnerable, You're unsure, right,
and you want the person that's in your corner to
(21:04):
really sure leave you, to be like yeah, good luck,
but you probably won't get it, and support you and
be your fan. What is I mean? That is a
sucker punch right in the gut. If you're in that situation,
you you almost start to try to convince them no,
like in the examples that was I enjoyed that part
of the episode so people could maybe see from the
outside looking in, this is how it looks, right, because
(21:25):
when you love the person, you're looking in their eyes.
I'm sure you can help us get into that carry
like you're looking in their eyes when it's happening, and
you're remembering the person who gave you the pillow talk
and all the great vibes. And the thing is, it
always starts so subtly, right, It's like that classic parable
about the burning frog in the water. You don't know
what's happening. Like imagine you meet someone, you're on a date,
(21:46):
and he's like, baginet to happen. You're crazy. You're like, Okay,
well I'm gonna go. I'm gonna leave my by. Now
we haven't built a relationship yet. But when you're six
months a year, say you're married with kids, and someone
starts with this behavior, you're not gonna be equipped to
deal with it. Okay, I can't wait to get into this.
I have held my peace, So Carrie, let's go. We
(22:06):
want to know more about how you were gaslighted in
the evangelical cult. You grew up in The Evangelical church
as a whole is being critiqued a little more closely
these days, especially by the newest generation. But clearly some
evangelical communities take control of their conslications and step further
(22:27):
than others. How were you gaslighted in your church? So
I would say that it primarily came with how the
women were treated versus the men. And from an early age,
I remember being eleven or twelve, and they would segment us,
so girls one room, boys in another, and basically they
would sit us down and say how we were Jezebels,
(22:51):
we were going to tempt the men, how we couldn't
wear certain clothes, how we couldn't say certain things, and
we were legitimately segmented to where I remember being fifteen
or sixteen and a boy liked me, and it became
the biggest outrage. We didn't even kiss, we didn't even
hold hands. I think I tripped over his foot one
so like the park, but our parents all got called
(23:12):
in a room with the leader of this church or pastor.
It wasn't a conventional church. It was more of this
own small community built this church. So we get brought
in the room. It was me and another friend because
she liked his brother or something on those lines, and
the parents just screaming at us, telling my parents how
I was sending him messages late at night, and we
(23:33):
just got treated as if we had committed the biggest crime.
So from a very early age, I was being told,
you're the reason that boys do this, you are the problem.
He didn't message you you're crazy, even though they pursued us.
Obviously that didn't matter once it came down to it.
How old were you carry? How old was this fifteen
when this part happened. But let me tell you the
(23:55):
best part. The best part was that I wasn't allowed
to talk to These boys were my years and some
of my best friends right like, I couldn't date them.
But these older men that were in the church like banned,
were able to hang out with us on chaperoned and
one of them, one of them, my friend was twelve
and he was twenty two. He pursued her, No one
(24:16):
believed her, her family tried to get him kicked out
of the church. It didn't happen. And then when I
was sixteen, he did the physical things with me and
I ended up going with my dad to the pastor,
and basically I was told that it didn't happen. I
put myself in the situation, and to this day, he
might still be at this church. I'm honestly not sure.
(24:38):
I'm so that I know and I actually told my
story and I know that I actually had a friend
that probably five years ago, said that he went after
his I think friend's little sister who was fifteen, so
he would be what in his thirties at forties at
this point, a predator. Yes, it happened so much more
often than we think. It's like that the church wants.
(25:00):
I don't want to say the church, because that's these
religious groups at times, if not monitor these people abusing
their they're abusing power, they're abusing power amongst themselves. Yeah, hush, hush.
And so I in that situation, I remember he took
me to a cave, which is the creepiest thing ever.
(25:20):
And I came back home and I was like covered
in dirt, and I remember no one asked me what happened,
and I just was like, I did something wrong. I
put myself in this situation. I thought, you's my friend.
They shamed right on, oh my gosh, into guiltying yourself,
no accountability on anyone else's part. Complete power, and that
(25:42):
you know, that was one of many yea. And the
fact that it's happening potentially happening still in the church,
and now we site church how are we distinguishing the
difference between church and cult in your mind? I would
say that it's difficult. But this was more of a
(26:04):
small segment of people who left the quote unquote think
of the normal and Christian Church, Baptist Church, whatever. They
left this to create their own church because their beliefs
were superior and the other churches didn't have it right.
We have the only true way to get to Heaven.
Everyone else is wrong, and then it's that control everyone
(26:26):
from there. Yeah, that's how cults are made, culte one
on one and this literally that behavior early on, being
basically shamed and then punished and not being seen or
affirmed in the experiences that you had led you to
evolve as you matured and having these horrific relationships in
(26:49):
your future. Can you tell us about your relationship with
your ex who gaslighted you and how the relationships started
and then turned abusive. I can, and I would say
before that there was definitely a pattern, and not every
single one. I had perfectly good relationships, but I definitely
didn't know how to set any kind of boundaries with
(27:11):
the men in my life, and I had situations that
looking back, we're not necessarily consensual, but I would always
blame myself, push it aside, think it was normal. I
would say, legally, I was of age, right, but there's
a reason why he was in his late thirties going
after someone in their early twenties. So we actually worked together.
(27:32):
And I had started this job, on my first big
city job outside of college, and I remember it was
the first day of orientation and he walked through the
door and I can still he was wearing a yellow
shirt like these weird blue pants and aman bun and
I remember seeing him and instantly this voice in my
(27:54):
head said he's dangerous. Stay away in a way that
was basically like this instant year electricity attraction. And I
remember him looking at me and it was like he
felt it too, And within a few days we were dating.
I remember he like swept me off my feet. He
met some friends. They thought he was amazing. We had
this magical night and he looked at me and he said,
(28:17):
You're everything I've ever wanted, and it was like this
just washing over me. It was like the love I'd
always dreamed of out of fairy tales. So for about
two three months, everything was perfect. I met his friend group,
everyone welcomed me with open arms. We went on these
special weekend trips and getaways, and then there was a
(28:40):
night when we went to a party and I remember
we were driving and he he just seemed off. He
seemed angry, and I was like, what's going on and
he was like nothing, and I was like, Okay. We
get to the party, he's being strange, and then we
went to leave and he had maybe a couple of beers,
so I was like, hey, I'll drive. I haven't had
anything to drink. And we get in the car and
he started screaming at me that I'm a slut, that
(29:03):
I'm flirting with everyone, that I threw myself as a
guy at the party, and he ends up smashing my
head against the window. And we drive home, and the
next day we wake up and he's acting like everything
is normal. I remember he kissed my head and was
being super sweet, and I pulled away and I just said,
do you realize what happened last night? And he looked
(29:26):
horrified and confused, and he said no, and I told him,
and he acted so ashamed. He said that he had
no recollection of it. And by the end of it,
I had separated the two incidents in my mind where
it almost didn't happen. I was like, I can't even comprehend.
I just disassociated and was like, there's no way that
(29:46):
he would do this to me. The normal sweet person's back,
everything's gonna go back to normal. Well, you also just
want to get back to the good stuff like that
we could work. I know he's been stressed right before
you got home. What were you thinking in the car?
That was the first time I've been emotionally abused prior,
(30:09):
but that was the first time someone was that aggressive
towards me, So I honestly think I wasn't shore. I
remember driving and just feeling this coldness like in me,
and I'm just I think denial. It was instant. Just
get home, then we'll deal with this tomorrow. And I honestly,
at that point in my life, I've gotten so good
(30:31):
at compartmentalizing things that I just put it aside and
was like, I can't I can't accept this because if
I accept this, that means that everything else was a lie.
And I thought when I wasn't ready to do that.
(30:53):
We talked a little bit already about how Rebecca thought
she didn't have a grasp of reality because of being
gas light it for years. Her ex was just so
brazen in his last by the end. So, Carrie, were
there times that your ex guests letted you even about
things that should have been so obviously incorrect. Yes, absolutely,
there were several that I had definitive proof of. I
(31:17):
think it was Christmas for New Year's and we got
in an argument and he pushed me on the ground
and I was in shock, and my friends saw it.
And after that I ended up spending the night at
of friends and then seeing him the next day and
he just flat outside that didn't happen. He slipped like
I didn't touch you. Oh my gosh, I know. And
(31:39):
then there was a second time where he actually was
very financially abusive as well, and I ended up spending
thousands of dollars. And keep in mind we had the
same job. It wasn't as if I was out earning
him by a lot of money, but basically we would
go on trips and I would spend money on everything.
And it was strange because I honestly didn't notice it
at first. It was very small here and there, and
(32:00):
then I ended up pulling my bank statement because I
was like something. I know he's not really contributing. I
started to realize it, and I wrote down line by line.
I remember, with my pen, line by line, wrote everything out.
I'm like nine one whatever. You went to the store
and I paid for all the groceries, presented him with this,
and he just sat there and said, this isn't this
(32:22):
isn't right. You made this up. You're being so dramatic. No,
I just wouldn't even accept the hard truth in his hand.
It's the lack of accountability and audacity. For me, I
just cannot believe. I can't believe it. Actually, I guess
I can't. I can't believe. I just want to acknowledge
how much I applaud you for not being on an
(32:44):
episode of Snapped. Okay, that's part I really did, because
just hearing this, it's just I'm boiling because I'm just
so angry knowing that someone is doing this another person intentionally.
I was angry for a very long time. There's a
(33:04):
reason that I started doing what I do and writing
about this and working with the other victims. I hadn't
found anything else in my life I was as passionate
about until I went through it and realized this is
happening a lot more than we think there really is.
I'm so glad that you were able to unpack it
and see the patterns and want to change. That is key,
(33:24):
because otherwise people just continue to look for that same
bread crumbing up overadalming and just pieces of and then
the wishful thinking of just hoping things will change, and
you look up it it's been years and finding a
purpose that could be a positive outcome from all of
this is also a true gift, and that you're helping
(33:45):
other people. Thank you, Thank you. That's the one silver
lining of the Honestly, it's the silver lining of the experience.
I ask you before Tracy goes onto her next piece,
how is your faith after having, you know, the cult,
experience with the church and then having the relationship, do
you have a faith based that you feel is more
successful that you've been able to establish for yourself since
(34:07):
you left them. That's a great question. I would like
to say I'm spiritually homeless or agnostic, but I am
not against religion in any way. I'm against some of
the things that come out of it and some of
the abuse that we've seen in some of the bigger
organized religions, but I would say I'm still very open
to different spiritual paths, but as of now, I haven't
(34:31):
found one that's specifically that I would put it into it.
If that makes sense. No, and I respect that, and
I'm glad to hear it because I know this. Sometimes
people are just turned off altogether absolutely even want to
So I'm glad that you are open, and I hope
that you just find that space, whatever that is. Thank you.
Dr Romney made a very important distinction at the Red
(34:53):
Table between liars and gas lighters. She said, you can
bring a liar around when you bring evidence. A gas
lighter will double down on their deceit when you catch them,
and they'll turn it into your crazy. Can you tell
us about a time when you went on vacation and
he tried to deny his financial abuse this joker. I'm
(35:14):
telling you absolutely there is a happy ending to this story,
so don't worry. This wasn't the end of my dating life. Goodness.
We had several situations where we would go on trips.
I don't even know if I want to call it
a vacation, because you know I was I was the
one paying for everything, So we can really do really
(35:34):
lavish trips. It was vacation. He was on vacation when
I was supplying his life habits, so that was great.
But the thing is, if he were to admit that
I was paying for everything and that he wasn't contributing
to the relationship, the gig would be up right, Like
then I realized, oh, I'm right, which is a validation
(35:55):
he doesn't want me, and like realization he doesn't want
me to have, so there will There were several ffs
where he would forget his credit card and then he
would tell me, oh, I'll get just pay it'll be
it'll be fine, whatever, and then later I would bring
it up and he would just say no, like we
went half on that, like I'm not financially abusing you,
(36:16):
I'm contributing. He would constantly say he contributed, and I
even at one point called him out because I said,
you don't even contribute with your friends, and he tried
to tell me that he did contribute because he brought
the bongo drums and contributed to the musical creative aspect
of the gatherings. Okay, okay, I mean yeah, the bonges. Okay.
(36:39):
I was like, what like that sounded like a professional
bongo player, like he should have been told him with
it's a percussionist. Absolutely not, absolutely not. I contributed. I
brought the bongos. No your bongos, sir. But that was
the thing. No accountability. He's somehow sputted to where he
genuinely projected that conviction that he was contributing. And I
(37:03):
was like, how do you argue with the bongos? I
don't know. What can you say with the bongos? Dude?
What is your deal? He thought he was the probably
did he did? He thought he was bringing that talent
everyone gather around. Did you meet his parents? Scary? I
met his mother, who was quite narcissistic as well, which
(37:26):
I'm sure is where some of this came from. He
didn't have a relationship with his father. That is because
I was like, it's either one of two things. He's
either like a sociopath and his parents are done with
him and they don't even know he is exerting his
control because he had none of That's what happened was
a chip off the block. Fix it lord, Okay, Carrie,
(37:51):
When you were able to finally see your expert who
he was and what he was what was that like
for you? I feel like it was a bunch of
little things. But I remember I had a trip planned
with my best friend and I got away for a weekend.
And I know that sounds so small, but we went
(38:12):
to Nashville. I went to this concert of a small
musician I love, and I ended up front and center
stage and he like threw me a guitar pick, and
I just remember standing there and I was having this
beautiful life moment and I thought to myself, this is
not going to exist if I don't leave my ex.
I I just snapped in a place and I felt
(38:35):
this piece and I felt like myself again. I knew
not to end things on right then and there, so
I waited till we got back. I made sure that
his roommates were home, and I went and I ended things.
And I have never had someone react so strangely in
my entire life. And I remember sitting on the bed
and I had constructed a very I'm still to my core,
(38:57):
I am kind even breaking up with someone like this,
I do it. I'm not. I could have said so
many things, but ultimately I just said, I'm not myself
with you. I don't feel free I don't feel supported,
and I'm going to go be with someone who makes
me feel that way. And he kind of fought for it,
and then it was like a switch and he just
stands up and he starts cleaning his room and throwing
(39:20):
stuff in a bag. And I sat there and I
slowly got a few things I still had in the room.
I went to leave and I got in my car,
and he walked by to go to the trash and
he looked back at me. And I have never, at
any other point in my life had someone look at
me like they wanted to kill me. Like in his eyes.
(39:40):
I've never seen such hatred. Just it was absolutely chilling.
Like to this day, I can still remember how it was.
I bet because now he's thinking, I have to go
start with someone else. That is so scary. Had you
had any therapy at that point. No, I had not
had any therapy at that point. So this is how
(40:01):
I figured out what was happening is I had started
googling his behaviors and at the time, honestly, there wasn't
a lot about narraticism. And I found information and I
started reading people's stories and I went down this rabbit hole.
I was validated. I was like, other people are experiencing this,
This is not normal. I'd had relationships. I knew that
something was off, and the number one thing I read
(40:23):
was to make sure that I planned how I was
going to leave and make sure that I wasn't alone.
And the good thing is we weren't out of stage
where we lived together. We didn't have kids, which made
it a lot easier for me than a lot of
other victims who don't have it that easy. Yeah. Yeah,
where they're literally financially intertwined, or they have children, or
they occupy a space that they share, that's that's important. Gosh, wow,
(40:50):
you were so brave. I thank you. Right, there was
no option. I think it was just there was no
I knew if I didn't leave, I would die. You
would have and if you would have died physically, there
is an internal death that can happen when you're minimized constantly.
And what I heard with the concert experience was like
you finally got outside in the sun. You were like, so,
(41:13):
this is what it's like to be free and have
fresh air, and to have some light in my life
and some joy in my heart. I could breathe again
for the first time in a long time, and after
a while you don't think it's possible. I feel like
you start to think, like us, this is just they're
right right. The opening theme music, too Snapped is just
(41:36):
running in loops in my head. I'm telling you, Tracy,
I feel like you're gonna snap for me. I feel
like there's a decade later. Don't don't let me go there.
It's crazy. It's good. I wasn't in your friend group
(41:56):
at the time. Okay, I mean, I'm all about peace,
but there's something as this man has earned okay and greed.
Dr Romney had some very clear advice for people getting
out of relationships with narcissists and gas lighters. She said,
when people are in their post gas lighting, post narcissistic phase,
I prescribe a twelve month detox. Absolutely no relationships, no sex,
(42:19):
get a vibrator, call it a day, but you are
not touching anyone. You need to find you. You need
to figure out what kind of pizza you're like. You
need to figure out what music you really do like.
You need to figure out what temperature you want. That
thermisy susceptible is the toy for me. I love it.
That's why I love about Dr Romney. She pulls no punches.
(42:40):
What advice do you have cared for people experiencing gas lighting?
M I was gonna say, I don't think I heard
that from Dr Romney when I ended things, so I
can't say I followed the same advice, but I will
say it was a year before I was in a
committed relationship again, so at least half of the way there.
(43:01):
But I would say it's hard to give advice if
someone doesn't know that they're in this situation. So I
would just say, if something fells off, listen to your gut. Luckily,
we live in a day and age when there's a
lot of information available on the internet, even now on
apps like Instagram, TikTok, anything, there's a lot of people
(43:21):
bringing awareness to this, whether it's gaslighting, narcissism, psychological abuse.
So I would just say, if you feel like something's off,
start researching what's happening, and you might find that someone
else has that advice, or you can get validated that
they're going through the same thing, and then from there
you can start planning what you're gonna do next. Because
I think half the battle or almost the full battle
(43:43):
is even recognizing what's happening, right, that's good advice. Of course,
we're going to wind down soon, but we have to
ask you before we hit out, Carrie, what is life
like with this happy ending? You share that it's it's
successful so far. Yes, so well, I have been very well.
I actually just got married and thank you, thank you.
(44:08):
It was amazing. We've been together almost five years, so
he was absolutely amazing. We met and I was just
starting therapy. I was having PTSD and he was so
supportive of everything. And I don't want to credit someone
else for my healing, but I will say that having
a partner who understood it took the time to really
(44:31):
understand my trauma. He hadn't dated anyone who had gone
through that, and he took the time to figure out
why I was maybe projecting things from the past on him,
and how to really aid in my healing and be supportive.
And it was absolutely amazing. So now we have an
amazing life together. We love to travel. We have a
Golden Retriever that's just the fluffiest at all. But yes,
(44:54):
but I would just say that I think so many
people can get in a situation where they think this
is it. And I would just say I did get
to a place where I was happy and content to
be alone and that it sounds so cliche, but I
kid you not. That's when I met my husband around
the same time, because you had found your your whole.
(45:16):
I've made yourself whole, so you weren't looking for someone
else to fill you up and make you whole. That
we're on your own, a whole person, so you can
bring your whole self to a relationship and be healthy
and happy. That for you, Yes, I love that. Thank
you so much. Tracy and Carol, Oh my gosh, it's
feels like therapy for me or you, Oh my god.
I mean, and I could talk to you so we
(45:39):
could keep talking. Yea happy And we don't want we
don't want to wear you out. But we've loved, love
having you here. You have been just such a phenomenal
guest with us. Thank you so much. I will enjoy it.
And if my story can help anyone out there, then
once again it's worth it. Where can people find you though, Yeah,
because you're doing a good work. Yes, thank you. I
(46:02):
have a blog, but I primarily write on medium. You
can just search for me. Carry when c A R R, I, E, W,
Y and N and then otherwise I'm on Instagram Carrie
Underscore when Musings. Thank you for coming to the Virtual
Red Table. It was great to be here. We want
to know how you're feeling about this new season of
(46:25):
Red Table Talk. We are open to talk about anything
with you all, so please send in your questions at
Let's Red Table that a red Table talk dot com.
And speaking of listeners, we want to thank you. Thank
you so much for listening. Make sure you subscribe on
I Heart Radio app, and please rate this podcast on
Apple podcast Rate us up five. We'll be back next
(46:48):
week for another episode of Let's Red Table That. A
big thank you to our executive producers Jada Pinkett Smith,
Ellen Rackitton and Fallon Jethrow. And thank you to our
producer Kyla Canru and our associate producer Yolanda Chow. And finally,
thank you to our sound engineers Calvin Baylis and Devin Donneghy.
(47:11):
We love you. Let's Red Table, Let's Red Table, Let's
Red Table, Let's Red Table That Okay? Is that the
church version? Okay
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