October 17, 2022 • 46 mins
Constance Wu revealed her life-threatening mental health struggles at the red table, so Tracy and Cara invited Asian-American activist Alice Tsui and Asian-American author and licensed psychologist Dr. Jenny Wang to share their perspectives on the state of mental health in the Asian-American community. Alice’s mental health journey began just a couple years ago and has resulted in her unlearning emotional suppression, while Dr. Jenny has been guiding her community members in understanding how their culture informs their identity her entire career. Don’t miss this raw conversation, only on Let’s Red Table That.
Learn more about Alice Tsui: alicetsui.com
Learn more about Dr. Jenny: jennywangphd.com
Hosts Information:
Cara Pressley
@thecareercheerleader Cara’s Instagram
@TheCareerCheerleader Cara’s Facebook
@the1cheering4U Cara’s Twitter
@FeelinSuccessful Cara’s TikTok
Tracy T. Rowe
@tracytrowe Tracy’s Instagram
@troweandco Tracy’s Facebook
@tracytrowe Tracy’s Twitter
@tracytrowe Tracy’s TikTok
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hey, y'all, Hey, what's up, and welcome to let's Red
Table bat. I'm Tracy t from and I'm Carl Pressley
over here feeling successful. How are you feeling today about
today's episode, Tracy love you know what, let me say
something to you. Today's episode. Okay, today's episode kind I
dare say it was beyond every day amazing. Today's episode
(00:24):
was phenomenal because we were able to learn so much.
First of all, Constance Woo is a g she is
super strong. She is is I mean, she's a trailblazer.
She has taken the weight of the world and her
(00:45):
culture on her shoulders. Hello. And I just watching that episode,
I was a full spectrum of emotion. I was sad,
I was angry, I was exhausted. I mean, you think
about it, it was all of that. It really was,
because here's this woman who is just wanting to be
(01:05):
an actor, she just wants to share her skill with
the world, and she has the burden of her whole
culture and community and they have no dang on idea
what she was enduring silently, privately, painfully, and I just
hearing it and seeing her, I mean virtually in tears. Yeah,
(01:28):
before she could get. I mean, it was like immediate.
I just felt for her. This is why people don't
explain what they're going through though, because they feel like
they have to to be understood or heard or listen to.
And I mean, at the end of the day, I
appreciate her for sharing her story. I appreciate this episode.
Like we definitely in society focus on like falling in
(01:49):
love and having everything go your way and I be
ideal and baby. This season the Red Table Talk, we
are talking about falling off, falling to the side. We
are using new languages of alienation, estrangement, isolation. People are
going through things, and we've got to share these stories
because and that's the real talk of it, right, No
(02:09):
one's real talk. Real talk. People need to see this,
you know, the whole idea of suffering and silence needs
to be over because if you can be a keyboard
cowboy and you know wrangeling people and you haven't even
seen them, you don't know them from Adam, you should
be able to watch a show like Red Tape Talk
and understand these are people. You're dealing with humans and
(02:31):
emotions and you don't know what that person is. Stop
stop it. If you can't say something positive, then you know,
maybe you don't need to say because you don't know.
You truly do not know what people are going through
out here. We are at the very beginning of fall,
headed into winter, and I don't know if you've heard
about it. People go through seasonal depression all the time,
and things like this are because why because they feel
(02:52):
like they can't speak their truth. So I'm happy that
she's speaking her truth and we are speaking ours, and
we are gonna table all of this in this episode
you on. One of the things I also love about
this episode is that not only are we connected because
it's red table talking and let's red table there, but
you have a connection with Constance. Who do you listen?
She is from Richmond, Virginia, I mean right here, in
(03:15):
the same city and state. We didn't go to the
same high school, but we were in the same district.
I mean, you guys literally were literally the same time.
She was born in eighty two, so was I. I
read and saw that her father taught at VCU, a
local college. That's why she was here. But she went
to Freeman. I went to Verona High School. Did you
guys ever compete? I do know for sure our football
(03:38):
team definitely beat hers. That's what I do know. You know,
constant trying to talk about it. Let me know, but
okay constantly. I don't think you need to let her
have that. We need some listen. I know, I know
Varona High School definitely beat your tip. I'm gonna have
to look up the school. I'm gonna finding Constant. You
come out here and get cars. Listen, we have love
for you. That was a yons ago, many many men
(04:00):
years ago. Now it's time to share what our online
Red Table Talk community has to say about this episode. Carl,
we had so many fantastic comments. You want to read
the person I will. Michelle Miranda st. Clair said, I
come from the Asian community, and the community's response does
not surprise me. So much is wrong with how we
(04:20):
blame the victim. Constance, Good for you for speaking about this. Yes,
I appreciate that as well. I'm glad Constance decided to say,
let me just tell my story. Super important. That is
so important. And you know, we got another fantastic response
from Rocio Salazar and Roto. You said, I did not
(04:41):
know she went through so much pain and hurt. I
loved crazy rich Asians and fresh off the boat. I
hope she continues to grow and I wish nothing but
the best for her. Thank you so much for those
wonderfully loving comments. We need that, we need to send
her light and love. Yes, we definitely agree. Another comment, Wow,
she's a warrior. Thank you for sharing constance. It must
(05:04):
have been terrifying facing so much hate and dealing with
so much internal suffering. Protect your peace against all odds.
And the praying hands emoji and this is from Nikki
Elizabeth Hobbs. Yes, Nick elizabeths Hodds, I am with you
with the praying hands. We also know that those hands
were supposed five. Yeah, we've just taken over. I thought
(05:26):
about that for we just made them praying hands, praying hands,
and high five all in that same comment. So fantastic.
We appreciate that comment too. And Melissa dar Pino says
she kept apologizing for crying when there was no need to.
I'm over here balling for her all. Sometimes tears are necessary.
I understand that the cathartic there's they're so you get
(05:48):
released from that purge of crying. So I get it.
I was crying with her, Melissa, you and me both
We're going to take a quick break, but when we
get back, we will be joined by two incredible guests
from our Red Table Talk community, and today we're bringing
(06:10):
to fellow URTT community members to the virtual Red Table Listen.
Alice Soy is a music teacher and social activists in
New York City who's in passion speech at a New
York City Stop Asian hate rally went viral last year.
Alice started seeing her mental health as a priority only recently,
in part because of the pandemic. I think like a
(06:31):
lot of us, And she's here today to share about
her mental health journey and the difference therapy has made
in her life. Thank you Alice for joining us today
or less Red Table that's yes, Thank you, Alice, Thank you.
Dr Jenny Wang is an author and licensed psychologists specialized
in helping her clients understand the impact of racial trauma
(06:54):
and racial identity on their mental health. Her new book,
Permission to Come Home is a guide for Asian Americans
as well as other marginalized people for prioritizing their mental
health while understanding and honoring the richness of their heritage
and embodying a new, complete and whole identity. Welcome to
the virtual Red Table. Dr Jenny. I love that the
(07:17):
whole identity. We need to make sure we have whole identities.
Thank you for being here with us today, and thank
you both for having this time and sharing the space
with us. Yeah, We're gonna get into some conversations. I'm
excited about it. So let's get into it. It is
(07:39):
time for the part of the show where we reveal
which moments made us pause. I mean really rewind, stop
and listen again and say, wait, what now? What was
that exactly? So let's talk about it. So Constance revealing
that she kept her on set harassment of secret because
she didn't want to sully the reputation of Fresh off
(08:00):
the Boat or Asian Americans attached to the show. And
the thing that was most painful was he was so
derogatory and harassing towards me. But because this show was
sort of a beacon of representation for Asian Americans and
I sort of became a symbol of representation, I didn't
(08:20):
want to sully the one show with sexual harassment claims
against the one Asian American Nair who was doing all
this better work for the community. Have you ever been
in a situation like this where you felt like you
couldn't speak up because you valued the reputation of another
person or a company over your pain. You know, I
think as women we are protectors. We are people who
(08:46):
want to shield others from pain, from harm, from a
sully reputation. And I think that as Asian Americans, we
have watched our parents do that for us, right, They've
protected at us, They've kept their mouth shut because it
could cost them a lot, could cost their livelihoods. And
(09:07):
so I think that in many ways I was modeled
that as a child, in being a child of immigrants,
being Asian American, and being a daughter, I was taught
that you actually shouldn't speak up, you should actually swallow
the suffering because that actually was seen as a strength
(09:30):
in our culture sometimes and being the strong person was
at times more important than being the honest person. Oh
that's powerful, Dr Jenny, Thank you for that too, because
I'm as I'm like rethinking about it. It's like we
protect others, and then who protects us? Right? So, like
(09:50):
where is the handoff? And then how can we both
be protected in this and honor our culture and honor
how hard it was to get to this point Alice,
have you experienced anything like that at all? Yeah? I
actually was gonna see something very similar to Dr Jenny,
because that idea of in Chinese culture swallowing bitterness should cool.
(10:12):
It means literally that you just take the pain and
you silence yourself. So even if I did want to
speak up for or to help my parents in moments
where I felt that they were discriminated against, I didn't
know that I could just in my own parents eyes.
And so with that being so pervasive in Asian American culture,
(10:36):
even though I am the oldest sibling, there's so much
that we are burdened with in a way that I
think can make that difficult. And having internalized that for
so long, how can we then speak up? Right? Who
are we speaking up for? If that is against everything
that we've learned? Right? The oxymoronic position of being in
(10:58):
a land where you're taught to stand up for your
rights and fight, and then culturally being taught not to
do that is unbelievably complicated. Yeah. Willow pointed out that
the reaction to Constance's tweets wouldn't have been so visceral
if there were more sources of Asian American representation in
(11:21):
mainstream media. I feel like the reaction wouldn't have been
as visceral if there were more representation beforehand. I think
you hit it on the nose. I think it's because
it's because of the laugh there of people are like, oh,
this is all had. I personally would agree that it
(11:48):
is really hard to be in such a position. I
can only imagine that Constance was in where there were
so many harsh reactions and actual named also within the
Asian American community. I feel that in my own experience
when I have spoken out personally, I received the most
backlash from Asian American people and also to be specific,
(12:11):
Asian American men who really really had a tough time
just with an Asian American woman speaking out. It's very
much against what we in society have internalized about Asian
womain being obedient or soft spoken. These tropes and unfortunate norms,
I suppose that have continued over time. So I also
(12:34):
wonder than what additional burdens that she had to carry
that even though she was able to have this discourse
with everyone, that we still are unaware of, and what
does she continue to carry and what is swallowed? What
else is swallowed. What was the word that you used
for swallow bitterness in Chinese? It's cool cool m h.
(12:56):
You just silence yourself and you take it. Dr Jenny,
we need to get a professional medical How does this
impact your medical health and well being? Absolutely when we
think about the importance of voice in psychology, the importance
of being able to self advocate, to even just speak
(13:19):
honestly about our experiences, and in many shapes and forms,
that being prohibited because that might bring shame upon your culture,
your community, your family. And so that idea of too
cool it comes from generational trauma because Asians in their
(13:39):
homelands were subjected to colonialism, were subjected to occupation. Coming
from Taiwan, my parents lived under martial law where if
you said anything, you could be taken away and you
would disappear in the middle of the night. So think
about what that means in terms of the psychology of
people who live under a Russian for decades, and often
(14:03):
as immigrants. We then come to a new country and
it's still terrifying. You know, when my mother came here,
she couldn't speak English. So the thought of answering the
phone and having to say hello and then not knowing
what that person was saying, not knowing if potentially our
visa was up, not knowing if your electricity was going
(14:25):
to be cut off. Those were things where you're under
a state of constant fear. And so I think that
fear also grips us as a community, a fear of invisibility.
This was our chance, right and they said that in
the in the interview, this was our one chance to
really have some sort of representation and to not be grateful,
(14:50):
to not be willing to suck it up for our community.
And that's the heartbreaking part of this is nobody knew
what she was going through. That part it's hard to
put together the fact that this isn't just like people
minimizing what she's going through and ignoring her, like in
(15:12):
her circle of entertainment, or as people say, like being
black bobbed, like the entire culture altogether just we're done
with it. Bless her heart. Yeah, I wanted to know.
How do you think people would have reacted if they
had known what she was going through? I think the
optimistic side of me would have hoped that people could
offer her compassion and empathy and rallied behind her and said,
(15:36):
my goodness, what you've had to subject yourself to in
order to carry our community forward. But to be honest,
I think some people would have still criticized her, would
have still found ways to pull her down, And that
I think is the most heartbreaking part of all this. Right, Alice,
you shared about how when you spoke up, people from
(15:58):
our own community spoke out again to you. Right, and
I just I agree with you, and I think that
when we whenever we are a first in anything, first
to be a representative, even if we don't necessarily see
ourselves in that light, they will inevitably be pressure that
(16:20):
is placed on us, pressure that we didn't call for ourselves.
I even think back to moments of the rally when
I was the first Asian American woman to speak at
that event, when you looked at my face and shot
away from my games. People were terrified of my nesk
and two eyes used to regard me by my Asian persuasion.
(16:41):
I reminded us that we're all part of one nation.
We're sprunting animositys and the black eyed peace. Can I
have some peace with my black eyes? Please? I think
about forty plus minutes had passed by with no female speaker,
to a point where the people at the front started
(17:02):
to get very I would describe anxious, starting to ask,
when will we hear a female voice? When we really
hear a female Asian American voice. It almost gave me
additional pressure that, oh, I must honor this moment in
a way that is beyond me, and that's really hard
for anyone to shoulder. How did you manage it? I
(17:24):
I knew that my voice is important, and even though
it wasn't something that I always was taught or internalized
as a kid, through my work as an educator, through
my work and being with students with youth and hearing
how students can share not only that their voice is important,
(17:45):
that their voice can bring them joy, can bring them hope,
can bring them justice. That has really personally inspired me
to share my voice. More so, I credit that really
to thinking about my students and why it is important
for us to continue to share our stories, our joy,
our resilience, our arts, our music, and so much more
of our humanity. Mm hmmm mm hmmmm. I love that
(18:09):
for you, Alice, because how many people just haven't found
their voice yet, you know, or still are holding onto
that just that I hate to say, burden. You do
want to honor your culture, but what will they think
of me still considering other people's opinions and emotions and
considerations outside of what you truly need as well to
(18:30):
honor your own self and your own culture, Like what
can I do to add my piece to it? And
you did it and you're doing it so I love
that for both of you. As much as it is
terrible and horrible for us as women of color to
know what it's like to be silenced and unseen, it
is also that much more riveting to be here with
you too today to see that, in spite of all
(18:52):
the things that could have stacked against you and kept
you silent, you prevailed. Well. I was in tears watching
the constants because to be able to sit at that
table and share her absolute truth and whoever wants to
talk about a suicide attempt that is probably one of
the most private, painful personal things anyone can ever consider,
(19:14):
and for her to share that, knowing all that you
have shared about how important it is to honor the culture,
I cannot imagine the pressure that she must have felt
and still feels now to have been in a position
where she openly shared that I felt like nothing I
could ever do would be enough. I felt like the
(19:37):
only thing that would prove to her that I felt
as bad as she thought I deserved to feel, would
would be if I died. What do you think does
that add to the shame for her, that she shared
that she attempted suicide. How does it not add to
the shame? Right? And I think in a culture where
(19:58):
mental health is seen as a disability, in a culture
where mental health is seen as you no longer are
able to care for your loved ones, it's seen as
something that takes away from one's life, right, and is
so stigmatized. The shame of even saying I feel sad
(20:18):
sometimes is already really intense. And so I think for
her to come out and actually say I was no
longer safe, I was not in a place where I
could keep myself safe, that takes such a huge step
of courage for many communities of color, because the stigma
(20:39):
is great. And so I think that when we get
to a point of that type of despair, we realize
that shame in silence and isolation breeds. And when she
was able to have her friend help her go to
(20:59):
the yaw are go to the hospital when she was
able to speak her pain, the pain no longer wrapped
the shame in a way that kept her trapped. And
I think that's really powerful. That is powerful. That is
really powerful. If you have not included something like that
in your book yet, Dr Jenny, just go back and
(21:22):
and incorporate that for the follow up, okay, because that
that is so impactful, it really is. I'm just my
mind is blowd I'm telling y'all, I literally have all
these questions and things I want to keep asking because
we rarely get to see behind the velvet rope of
the Asian American community. Let me preface that by saying,
I know neither of you are in a position where
(21:42):
you can be the voice for the entire culture right
that you can speak from your own lens and your
own perspective, just like I can't say for all black
women in the world. It's this. I just want to
hear from you from your own perspective for what's happened
since to date? How are you doing? I have so
many thoughts and feelings in response to that, But Tracy,
(22:03):
I just wanted to say, first, thank you for naming
that that we are not the voice for the Asian
American community, because that is exactly what Constance found herself
in in that position. And so I hope that as
we continue to share our voices and listen to different perspectives,
that we hold space for a nuance in each other's
(22:26):
lives within our culture. And one thing in terms of
thinking about stigmas to break and to just address is
when she said that she felt selfish for thinking of
herself first. And I feel like that's something that is
so cultural as well, that we're taught not to think
of ourselves first, whether it is thinking about for our
(22:49):
family or at all. Right, absolutely that if I am
thinking about myself, then I'm really not showing deference or
filial piety or reverence really at that point to those
who are older, the elders in my family, my lineage,
my community, whoever they may be. And so how am
(23:09):
I doing? I guess I'm trying to really disrupt all
of that personally, yes, because it's it's a mix of, Yes,
we still want to honor our ancestors, the things that
have been passed down, things values, etcetera. But we can
still also be our whole selves. And so where do
(23:32):
we strike that balance? And I think that so often
we're looking for a very cookie cutter way or a
specific framework. But the truth is that it's different for
all of us, and it shouldn't be the same. We
really shouldn't be looking for a specific framework. And the
more that we talk about ourselves and more that we
have conversations and across communities, for you as black women
(23:53):
and then ourselves as Asian women, that is in itself
so important for us to just disrust up whatever status
quo it currently is. I love that, Dr Jenny, how
are you? Oh it has been a couple of years,
It is my response. I think being a mental health
(24:15):
kind of practitioner, we almost got like an intimate lens
into how people were coping not just pandemic, but you know,
seeing many Asian American clients, it was pandemic plus anti
Asian hate plus really that was all alongside Black Lives Matter.
It was alongside so many social issues. And here in Texas,
(24:39):
right school shootings, there were so many things that we're
activating our nervous systems, having ways to cope with that
that were helpful, that were small enough that I didn't
have to feel exhausted to take care of myself. Right,
(25:00):
It wasn't that I had two or three hours in
a day to take care of myself. I had to
find moments to do it. Maybe it was two minutes
to do it because we were I mean, we were
compressed from all sides. I'm hopeful because Tracy, you were
saying earlier, it's a very rare experience to almost pull
(25:21):
back the curtain in our community. And I feel like,
maybe for the first time in my life, people are
even interested in wanting to see behind the curtain. Okay,
because for so much of my life, I felt as
though people didn't even see me as having a race.
(25:43):
I was invisible. Were the other, the other, the other category,
the box that you check where you might fill in
something but that may or may not matter. And I
think in the last few years, with stop Asian hate
and all of these concurrent things, our community kind of said,
(26:04):
you know what, We're sick of being other. We're sick
of having other people tell our stories. And I think,
like Alice said, when we started to verbalize this idea
that we actually had a place here that allowed us
psychologically to take up space in a way that our
(26:27):
community has never done before, and for the first time
in decades, people are actually seeking out therapy and they're saying,
I want to work on my racial identity. That was
never a reason people sought therapy, especially Asian American clients
five ten years ago. You know, I think that that
(26:48):
needs to be a standard. Yes, that should be woven
into depression treatment, that should be woven into anxiety, that
should be woven into the full experience, because my guesses
how you see the world and how the world sees
you impacts all of those mental health components. Right, So
(27:13):
I am tired some days, but I am so excited
many days. Oh. I love that. I love that because
you guys are doing the work like acknowledging your own
voice in the middle of what others may assume to
be a cultural voice, assumed to be You're saying, that's
not exactly how I feel. And I love that for
(27:35):
all of us. I feel like that's exactly why this
podcast exists in the spirit of individuality. Is we continue
to move forward. Now that we're talking about Constance wools
journey and everything that's happened, What was your true reaction
(27:59):
when the sweets happened, whether internal or external. When she
first tweeted them, I would say for me, I honestly
did not know how to feel. But I felt a
strange pressure to have to feel something because everyone in
the community was either having to feel something as well
(28:20):
or really truly felt something. So there was this collective
like what are you thinking? What are you feeling? That's happening?
That was hard for me to grasp and honestly just
left me more confused than anything, because at the end
of the day, at a tweet, you don't have the
full story. For me, as an educator, when I teach children,
(28:42):
I remember that or I keep in mind that I
only see students for X amount of time during a day.
So when children as young as pre k through fifth grade,
those are the the grades that I teach for music,
I see them being their musical selves. I see them
share of who they are. But I can never know
the full story without years of relationship building and knowing
(29:06):
their families and understand the community. So how can we
make of judgment on one person's one moment and yet
that still happened and continues to happen right well, because
we create our own stories, we are excellent storytellers. You
can just see one thing and it will ignite that
flame that you make a story up. I think we
(29:29):
all have I don't know, these preconceived notions, and we
don't give people to benefit of the doubt, or we
want to feel like we belong with the masses. In
some cases, just go along to get along, you know.
I think this is why I'm not on Twitter, because
I think it feeds a frenzy within seconds, right, And
(29:54):
it doesn't promote question asking. It promotes the labeling, the judgment,
the let me analyze this five words sentence, and it
does not invite people into conversation. And so when it
came out, I didn't see it on Twitter because I'm
not on there, but I saw it come up in
(30:15):
social media. Right. It was like Constance will blah blah blah.
And I think my initial thought was, like anything, this
comes from just being a psychologist, and I always tell
my kids I'm a professional question asker, that's my job,
and so it just prompted questions like WHOA, this is
maybe not what I expected, but I don't know. I'm
(30:37):
not sure what would prompt her to say something like that.
And I think that curiosity is often what's missing? And
I think Constance said that in the episode right that
had people even just took the moment to pause and say,
hold on, what's going on? How is she? We would
have perhaps seen more and so in for Constance, I
(31:02):
wish we had taken a moment to just ask, just
ask a simple question. This is why aimless scrolling is
like dangerous right in my opinion, because I just feel like,
if you're scrolling and you're not in the best place,
one of those in between moments where you're trying to
find a break but you're really mad about something at work,
you see a tweet like that and you're like, oh,
(31:22):
I can't believe she's in the best position of her
how could she even start to feel Whereas like me
just personally because I'm normally minding my business. When I
read it, I was like, oh, she probably just didn't
want to end vacation, Like clearly she's off work, and
that's so Perspective is so important, Diversity of thoughts is
so important. The National Latino and Asian American Study reported
(31:43):
that while eighteen percent of general US population sought mental
health services and resources in recent years, only eight point
six percent of Asian Americans did, so, Dr Jenny, can
you explain some reasons why this could be absolutely? I
think we can start with what we've talked about before,
which is the stigma and shame associated with mental illness,
(32:06):
and when culturally there is a framing that any kind
of even touch mentioned inference to mental health is then
seen as severe mental illness. I grew up hearing people say, oh,
well that person is just crazy. Right. You go from
like I'm struggling to this person can't be a functioning
(32:28):
member of society, and that escalation creates such a strong
framing that I don't ever want to be there. That's scary, right,
And so to admit mental health struggle is the first part. Right.
If you can't admit that you're struggling, there's no way
you can move forward and seek help. So I think
(32:49):
unwrapping from the stigma and the shame is the first piece.
But I think being Asian American and operating under model
minority myth also created an another level of pressure because
model minority myth is this idea where Asian Americans are
this caricature monolith where we're all super high, achieving, hard
(33:10):
working to just have it all together in this world. Well,
if that is the narrative for your community, then how
would you ever want to step outside of that and say, no,
actually I don't have my stuff together. I'm struggling and
I need help. So I think that is an added
layer that comes from outside our community, because people outside
(33:34):
of us are viewing us under that stereotype. And then
I think there's kind of to two additional pieces. One
is that being a person of color, where you may
not speak the language, you may not understand the medical system,
you have lots of mistrust for a system that is
kind of scary at times, what is going to bring
(33:58):
you to the doors of a often white psychologist, often
white psychiatrist. And there's also fears a lot from people
who have come from war torn regions, like the idea
of sitting down for an intake and this person asking
you all these questions that in itself can remind you
of times where you were interrogated under political regimes. So
(34:22):
there are lots of kind of connections to that power
differential that I think Western psychology does not do a
very good job of dismantling. And then let me tell you, right,
cultural competency was one course in my entire doctorate training program,
you serious, and that one course during one semester, did
(34:46):
not ever talk about Asian Americans. They did not talk
about Latin X, they didn't talk about a whole bunch
of communities, and they did not talk to us about
how to interface with communities that were different from ourselves.
And then is it safe to safe? What they said
could also have been completely incorrect, exactly right, because the
(35:11):
models of training were informed by white Western models. So
I think there's that mismatch of providers then, who truly
can care for our communities in ways that are effective?
And one example is power differential in Asian society is
a big one hierarchy. So yes, doctor, whatever you say, doctor,
(35:34):
if you tell me to do it, I will do it.
But that doesn't work in a therapeutic relationship when you're
trying to empower your clients make their own decisions. And
so that model of setting it up where the therapist
is the expert cannot be effective with many communities of color.
(35:55):
And really quick shout out to text therapy because I
enjoyed text therapy and Jenny, by you saying the interrogation
vibe sometimes of the therapist session. That is very much
a thing, and sometime people just need help. I know
that constant shared at the table that she swallowed her
abuse and just endured it right, just displaying an emotional
stoicism that was super not healthy. I probably do it
(36:17):
myself now that I'm the more I read this and
listen to this, I'm like, Okay, that sounds like me.
So Alice, I know you recently shared a blog post
about a similar idea, which was unlearning this emotional suppression.
Can you share more about what that journey has looked
like for you, because I'm personally all ears. Yeah. Actually,
like quote Dr Jenny in this blog post and the
(36:38):
quote that I shared of hers was that emotional stoicism
and Asian culture is not a deficit or shortcoming. It
was a protective mechanism against the brutality of poverty, colonization, trauma,
and dire life circumstances that our parents and ancestors only
hoped to survive. I mean, iift away from blame for
(37:01):
their lack of emotional engagement towards a posture of compassion
and wonder why they had to shut down their emotional
life in the first place. And this particular quote really
resonated with me because for me, as an Asian American
and I'm also a child of immigrants, I learned at
a really young age to suppress my emotions, so whatever
(37:21):
I felt didn't really matter in the larger context of
what my family was doing in order to survive. So
I learned from a very young age that crying was weak,
that showing any emotion was weak, that anything that could
be read as positive wasn't necessarily to be shown from
an exterior position, and that could be of celebrations as well.
(37:47):
So I literally learned to silence all emotions from a
very young age and to just do as told obey.
Essentially and in certain ways already subscribed to norms that
Asian American women have in our society. But for me
it was really important, upon again teaching being a big
(38:09):
part of my life and just my personhood, to learn
what it is to feel in my initial therapy sessions,
and I also had a long search for an Asian
American therapist who would serve me because I just did
not feel comfortable with going to someone who had a
(38:30):
different racial identity where I would have to explain things too.
But some of our initial conversations was just what is
it that I was feeling? And I couldn't necessarily even
articulate what it was that I felt, because when someone
asked you, how are you feeling, right, it's just the
answer that we are used to a society is I'm good,
(38:51):
how about you? Right? And there's nothing further. But if
I really dug deep, what is it that I was feeling?
And it was almost like learning how to communicate again
and and understanding, oh, when I use feelings words like
when I teach, it's beyond sad and happy, Perhaps this disappointed,
Perhaps it is frustrated, right, and where is the root
(39:11):
of all of that? So it took a lot of
continuous and continues to take peeling of different layers, and
for me, I always rooted it back to things that
can make me feel joy, just to be able to
be part of that healing process, and as a music
teacher that is in music and also thinking about how
(39:32):
can I empower future Asian American children too be able
to have this conversation already. That made me create a
book that talks about what it means to feel and
send her time within the book to just literally have
a child feel something and let that be visual and
let that be seen and heard and talks about. So
(39:55):
that's really important. And I wrote that in my book
We are Golden Um and it's the powerfulness For me.
I'm just loving it. Dr Jenny. I feel proud to
know and that you're here together. We had no idea
about the connection that you have and for what you're doing.
And you said I actually used a quote from Dr Jenny.
(40:17):
I was like, oh my gosh, that is this perfect Alice.
As a leader in the Stop Asian Hate movement, how
do you manage the feeling that people have certain expectations
of you? For me, I feel that no matter what
I do, whether it is as a leader in the
Stop Asian Hate movement, which by the way, really should
be activate Asian Power, Activate Asian Joy movement, not just
(40:42):
stopping something, I will always have expectations placed on me.
And for me, I just route myself back in why
I spoke in the first place and what is my why?
I think that's something that is so important to continue
thinking about. What is our why? When we do anything?
Is our why? Self fulfilling? Is it for the community?
(41:03):
Can it be both? And I think I really seek
something that is more complete and whole, where I can
share this aspect of my experience, I can share the
stage and invite different people within the Asian American diaspora
identify as East Asian and specifically Chinese, specifically American born Chinese.
(41:26):
That's a lot of very specific things, but within American culture,
American born Chinese folks have a lot of platform in
comparison to so much of our diaspora. So what does
it mean to not just have my voice there but
also invite different voices within our community to share the stage,
(41:51):
and not just share the stage, but share the conversation
that goes beyond our diaspora. And it's really intersectional. As
an Asian American women teaching black and Latin X youth,
that is something that when people here that have a
lot of issue with it have definitely damned me, commented
(42:11):
on and continue to yes. Yes, It's almost like, well,
why can't I care both for Asian community members and
for Black children and for Latin X children. And I'm
only naming racial differences so we can have compassion for
(42:33):
all of our communities. Because if we really look beyond
the history books that white folks have written over time,
we can find the intersections where even the term Asian
American is inspired by the Civil rights movement, So how
can there not have been any connection in that? Right?
Who knows the history of Malcolm X and your e Coachiyama?
(42:56):
And so much of what I continue to advocate for
is full or representation, but in the form of Asian
American history being time schools and not just as an
isolated chapter or as an isolated book. But how is
this connected to all of our histories and not just
a monthly celebration. Right, definitely not, because as I tell
(43:16):
my students, we can celebrate our heritage within a month,
but our heritages are meant to be celebrated all year round,
every year our whole lives, and so people will always
have expectations. But I just seek to continue dismantling the
status quote because the status quote just simply is not
enough to serve us at this moment. And again, I
(43:37):
also seek to amplify youth. I often now call myself
an amplifier before I even think about myself as an educator,
because if we really put them make up to children,
children will tell you, and we as adults must listen.
We must listen to what it is that they want
for their future. And it is my job as an
(43:58):
educator then to make sure that I use my power
to amplify their voices in different spaces. Oh I love that.
That is so powerful. Come on, amplifier. Imagine what it
would be like if it was instead of stop Asian hate,
that it was amplify or activate Asian love. That's so
(44:21):
good that put it on a T shirt. I love
it and we are more than just a T shirt quote.
I just I didn't want to minimize the moment. I
just love it. Guys, cal we love you. I'm gonna
tell you something. We could talk. I literally, I mean
for hours and hours and hours. I have grown. I
(44:43):
have really given myself. This is some challenging work, but
you have to make the investment. And so I'm so
grateful to both of you. Dr Jenny and Alice, thank
you both so much for being here with us at
the virtual Red Table. Thank you, thank you. We want
to know how you are feeling about this new season
(45:04):
or Red Table Talk. We are open to talk about
any and everything with you, so please send in your
questions because we read them every single one. The email
address is Let's Red Table that at red table talk
dot com. And we also have this fantastic new tool
you can leave a voice message for us one hike, Yes,
(45:27):
speak pipe dot com slash Let's red Table Fact. We
are so so thankful for you for listening with us today.
We want you to make sure you subscribe on I
Heart Radio app and please rate this podcast on Apple Podcast.
We want to five Let's Meanly. We'll be back next
week for another episode of Let's Red Table back I Thig.
(45:54):
Thank you to our executive producers Jada Pinkett Smith, Ellen
Rocketson and Palin Jethrow. And thank you to our producer
Kyla Knereu and our associate producer Yolanda Chow. And finally,
thank you to our sound engineer, Stephanie Aguilar
Hey, y'all, Hey, what's up, and welcome to let's Red
Table bat. I'm Tracy t from and I'm Carl Pressley
over here feeling successful. How are you feeling today about
today's episode, Tracy love you know what, let me say
something to you. Today's episode. Okay, today's episode kind I
dare say it was beyond every day amazing. Today's episode
(00:24):
was phenomenal because we were able to learn so much.
First of all, Constance Woo is a g she is
super strong. She is is I mean, she's a trailblazer.
She has taken the weight of the world and her
(00:45):
culture on her shoulders. Hello. And I just watching that episode,
I was a full spectrum of emotion. I was sad,
I was angry, I was exhausted. I mean, you think
about it, it was all of that. It really was,
because here's this woman who is just wanting to be
(01:05):
an actor, she just wants to share her skill with
the world, and she has the burden of her whole
culture and community and they have no dang on idea
what she was enduring silently, privately, painfully, and I just
hearing it and seeing her, I mean virtually in tears. Yeah,
(01:28):
before she could get. I mean, it was like immediate.
I just felt for her. This is why people don't
explain what they're going through though, because they feel like
they have to to be understood or heard or listen to.
And I mean, at the end of the day, I
appreciate her for sharing her story. I appreciate this episode.
Like we definitely in society focus on like falling in
(01:49):
love and having everything go your way and I be
ideal and baby. This season the Red Table Talk, we
are talking about falling off, falling to the side. We
are using new languages of alienation, estrangement, isolation. People are
going through things, and we've got to share these stories
because and that's the real talk of it, right, No
(02:09):
one's real talk. Real talk. People need to see this,
you know, the whole idea of suffering and silence needs
to be over because if you can be a keyboard
cowboy and you know wrangeling people and you haven't even
seen them, you don't know them from Adam, you should
be able to watch a show like Red Tape Talk
and understand these are people. You're dealing with humans and
(02:31):
emotions and you don't know what that person is. Stop
stop it. If you can't say something positive, then you know,
maybe you don't need to say because you don't know.
You truly do not know what people are going through
out here. We are at the very beginning of fall,
headed into winter, and I don't know if you've heard
about it. People go through seasonal depression all the time,
and things like this are because why because they feel
(02:52):
like they can't speak their truth. So I'm happy that
she's speaking her truth and we are speaking ours, and
we are gonna table all of this in this episode
you on. One of the things I also love about
this episode is that not only are we connected because
it's red table talking and let's red table there, but
you have a connection with Constance. Who do you listen?
She is from Richmond, Virginia, I mean right here, in
(03:15):
the same city and state. We didn't go to the
same high school, but we were in the same district.
I mean, you guys literally were literally the same time.
She was born in eighty two, so was I. I
read and saw that her father taught at VCU, a
local college. That's why she was here. But she went
to Freeman. I went to Verona High School. Did you
guys ever compete? I do know for sure our football
(03:38):
team definitely beat hers. That's what I do know. You know,
constant trying to talk about it. Let me know, but
okay constantly. I don't think you need to let her
have that. We need some listen. I know, I know
Varona High School definitely beat your tip. I'm gonna have
to look up the school. I'm gonna finding Constant. You
come out here and get cars. Listen, we have love
for you. That was a yons ago, many many men
(04:00):
years ago. Now it's time to share what our online
Red Table Talk community has to say about this episode. Carl,
we had so many fantastic comments. You want to read
the person I will. Michelle Miranda st. Clair said, I
come from the Asian community, and the community's response does
not surprise me. So much is wrong with how we
(04:20):
blame the victim. Constance, Good for you for speaking about this. Yes,
I appreciate that as well. I'm glad Constance decided to say,
let me just tell my story. Super important. That is
so important. And you know, we got another fantastic response
from Rocio Salazar and Roto. You said, I did not
(04:41):
know she went through so much pain and hurt. I
loved crazy rich Asians and fresh off the boat. I
hope she continues to grow and I wish nothing but
the best for her. Thank you so much for those
wonderfully loving comments. We need that, we need to send
her light and love. Yes, we definitely agree. Another comment, Wow,
she's a warrior. Thank you for sharing constance. It must
(05:04):
have been terrifying facing so much hate and dealing with
so much internal suffering. Protect your peace against all odds.
And the praying hands emoji and this is from Nikki
Elizabeth Hobbs. Yes, Nick elizabeths Hodds, I am with you
with the praying hands. We also know that those hands
were supposed five. Yeah, we've just taken over. I thought
(05:26):
about that for we just made them praying hands, praying hands,
and high five all in that same comment. So fantastic.
We appreciate that comment too. And Melissa dar Pino says
she kept apologizing for crying when there was no need to.
I'm over here balling for her all. Sometimes tears are necessary.
I understand that the cathartic there's they're so you get
(05:48):
released from that purge of crying. So I get it.
I was crying with her, Melissa, you and me both
We're going to take a quick break, but when we
get back, we will be joined by two incredible guests
from our Red Table Talk community, and today we're bringing
(06:10):
to fellow URTT community members to the virtual Red Table Listen.
Alice Soy is a music teacher and social activists in
New York City who's in passion speech at a New
York City Stop Asian hate rally went viral last year.
Alice started seeing her mental health as a priority only recently,
in part because of the pandemic. I think like a
(06:31):
lot of us, And she's here today to share about
her mental health journey and the difference therapy has made
in her life. Thank you Alice for joining us today
or less Red Table that's yes, Thank you, Alice, Thank you.
Dr Jenny Wang is an author and licensed psychologists specialized
in helping her clients understand the impact of racial trauma
(06:54):
and racial identity on their mental health. Her new book,
Permission to Come Home is a guide for Asian Americans
as well as other marginalized people for prioritizing their mental
health while understanding and honoring the richness of their heritage
and embodying a new, complete and whole identity. Welcome to
the virtual Red Table. Dr Jenny. I love that the
(07:17):
whole identity. We need to make sure we have whole identities.
Thank you for being here with us today, and thank
you both for having this time and sharing the space
with us. Yeah, We're gonna get into some conversations. I'm
excited about it. So let's get into it. It is
(07:39):
time for the part of the show where we reveal
which moments made us pause. I mean really rewind, stop
and listen again and say, wait, what now? What was
that exactly? So let's talk about it. So Constance revealing
that she kept her on set harassment of secret because
she didn't want to sully the reputation of Fresh off
(08:00):
the Boat or Asian Americans attached to the show. And
the thing that was most painful was he was so
derogatory and harassing towards me. But because this show was
sort of a beacon of representation for Asian Americans and
I sort of became a symbol of representation, I didn't
(08:20):
want to sully the one show with sexual harassment claims
against the one Asian American Nair who was doing all
this better work for the community. Have you ever been
in a situation like this where you felt like you
couldn't speak up because you valued the reputation of another
person or a company over your pain. You know, I
think as women we are protectors. We are people who
(08:46):
want to shield others from pain, from harm, from a
sully reputation. And I think that as Asian Americans, we
have watched our parents do that for us, right, They've
protected at us, They've kept their mouth shut because it
could cost them a lot, could cost their livelihoods. And
(09:07):
so I think that in many ways I was modeled
that as a child, in being a child of immigrants,
being Asian American, and being a daughter, I was taught
that you actually shouldn't speak up, you should actually swallow
the suffering because that actually was seen as a strength
(09:30):
in our culture sometimes and being the strong person was
at times more important than being the honest person. Oh
that's powerful, Dr Jenny, Thank you for that too, because
I'm as I'm like rethinking about it. It's like we
protect others, and then who protects us? Right? So, like
(09:50):
where is the handoff? And then how can we both
be protected in this and honor our culture and honor
how hard it was to get to this point Alice,
have you experienced anything like that at all? Yeah? I
actually was gonna see something very similar to Dr Jenny,
because that idea of in Chinese culture swallowing bitterness should cool.
(10:12):
It means literally that you just take the pain and
you silence yourself. So even if I did want to
speak up for or to help my parents in moments
where I felt that they were discriminated against, I didn't
know that I could just in my own parents eyes.
And so with that being so pervasive in Asian American culture,
(10:36):
even though I am the oldest sibling, there's so much
that we are burdened with in a way that I
think can make that difficult. And having internalized that for
so long, how can we then speak up? Right? Who
are we speaking up for? If that is against everything
that we've learned? Right? The oxymoronic position of being in
(10:58):
a land where you're taught to stand up for your
rights and fight, and then culturally being taught not to
do that is unbelievably complicated. Yeah. Willow pointed out that
the reaction to Constance's tweets wouldn't have been so visceral
if there were more sources of Asian American representation in
(11:21):
mainstream media. I feel like the reaction wouldn't have been
as visceral if there were more representation beforehand. I think
you hit it on the nose. I think it's because
it's because of the laugh there of people are like, oh,
this is all had. I personally would agree that it
(11:48):
is really hard to be in such a position. I
can only imagine that Constance was in where there were
so many harsh reactions and actual named also within the
Asian American community. I feel that in my own experience
when I have spoken out personally, I received the most
backlash from Asian American people and also to be specific,
(12:11):
Asian American men who really really had a tough time
just with an Asian American woman speaking out. It's very
much against what we in society have internalized about Asian
womain being obedient or soft spoken. These tropes and unfortunate norms,
I suppose that have continued over time. So I also
(12:34):
wonder than what additional burdens that she had to carry
that even though she was able to have this discourse
with everyone, that we still are unaware of, and what
does she continue to carry and what is swallowed? What
else is swallowed. What was the word that you used
for swallow bitterness in Chinese? It's cool cool m h.
(12:56):
You just silence yourself and you take it. Dr Jenny,
we need to get a professional medical How does this
impact your medical health and well being? Absolutely when we
think about the importance of voice in psychology, the importance
of being able to self advocate, to even just speak
(13:19):
honestly about our experiences, and in many shapes and forms,
that being prohibited because that might bring shame upon your culture,
your community, your family. And so that idea of too
cool it comes from generational trauma because Asians in their
(13:39):
homelands were subjected to colonialism, were subjected to occupation. Coming
from Taiwan, my parents lived under martial law where if
you said anything, you could be taken away and you
would disappear in the middle of the night. So think
about what that means in terms of the psychology of
people who live under a Russian for decades, and often
(14:03):
as immigrants. We then come to a new country and
it's still terrifying. You know, when my mother came here,
she couldn't speak English. So the thought of answering the
phone and having to say hello and then not knowing
what that person was saying, not knowing if potentially our
visa was up, not knowing if your electricity was going
(14:25):
to be cut off. Those were things where you're under
a state of constant fear. And so I think that
fear also grips us as a community, a fear of invisibility.
This was our chance, right and they said that in
the in the interview, this was our one chance to
really have some sort of representation and to not be grateful,
(14:50):
to not be willing to suck it up for our community.
And that's the heartbreaking part of this is nobody knew
what she was going through. That part it's hard to
put together the fact that this isn't just like people
minimizing what she's going through and ignoring her, like in
(15:12):
her circle of entertainment, or as people say, like being
black bobbed, like the entire culture altogether just we're done
with it. Bless her heart. Yeah, I wanted to know.
How do you think people would have reacted if they
had known what she was going through? I think the
optimistic side of me would have hoped that people could
offer her compassion and empathy and rallied behind her and said,
(15:36):
my goodness, what you've had to subject yourself to in
order to carry our community forward. But to be honest,
I think some people would have still criticized her, would
have still found ways to pull her down, And that
I think is the most heartbreaking part of all this. Right, Alice,
you shared about how when you spoke up, people from
(15:58):
our own community spoke out again to you. Right, and
I just I agree with you, and I think that
when we whenever we are a first in anything, first
to be a representative, even if we don't necessarily see
ourselves in that light, they will inevitably be pressure that
(16:20):
is placed on us, pressure that we didn't call for ourselves.
I even think back to moments of the rally when
I was the first Asian American woman to speak at
that event, when you looked at my face and shot
away from my games. People were terrified of my nesk
and two eyes used to regard me by my Asian persuasion.
(16:41):
I reminded us that we're all part of one nation.
We're sprunting animositys and the black eyed peace. Can I
have some peace with my black eyes? Please? I think
about forty plus minutes had passed by with no female speaker,
to a point where the people at the front started
(17:02):
to get very I would describe anxious, starting to ask,
when will we hear a female voice? When we really
hear a female Asian American voice. It almost gave me
additional pressure that, oh, I must honor this moment in
a way that is beyond me, and that's really hard
for anyone to shoulder. How did you manage it? I
(17:24):
I knew that my voice is important, and even though
it wasn't something that I always was taught or internalized
as a kid, through my work as an educator, through
my work and being with students with youth and hearing
how students can share not only that their voice is important,
(17:45):
that their voice can bring them joy, can bring them hope,
can bring them justice. That has really personally inspired me
to share my voice. More so, I credit that really
to thinking about my students and why it is important
for us to continue to share our stories, our joy,
our resilience, our arts, our music, and so much more
of our humanity. Mm hmmm mm hmmmm. I love that
(18:09):
for you, Alice, because how many people just haven't found
their voice yet, you know, or still are holding onto
that just that I hate to say, burden. You do
want to honor your culture, but what will they think
of me still considering other people's opinions and emotions and
considerations outside of what you truly need as well to
(18:30):
honor your own self and your own culture, Like what
can I do to add my piece to it? And
you did it and you're doing it so I love
that for both of you. As much as it is
terrible and horrible for us as women of color to
know what it's like to be silenced and unseen, it
is also that much more riveting to be here with
you too today to see that, in spite of all
(18:52):
the things that could have stacked against you and kept
you silent, you prevailed. Well. I was in tears watching
the constants because to be able to sit at that
table and share her absolute truth and whoever wants to
talk about a suicide attempt that is probably one of
the most private, painful personal things anyone can ever consider,
(19:14):
and for her to share that, knowing all that you
have shared about how important it is to honor the culture,
I cannot imagine the pressure that she must have felt
and still feels now to have been in a position
where she openly shared that I felt like nothing I
could ever do would be enough. I felt like the
(19:37):
only thing that would prove to her that I felt
as bad as she thought I deserved to feel, would
would be if I died. What do you think does
that add to the shame for her, that she shared
that she attempted suicide. How does it not add to
the shame? Right? And I think in a culture where
(19:58):
mental health is seen as a disability, in a culture
where mental health is seen as you no longer are
able to care for your loved ones, it's seen as
something that takes away from one's life, right, and is
so stigmatized. The shame of even saying I feel sad
(20:18):
sometimes is already really intense. And so I think for
her to come out and actually say I was no
longer safe, I was not in a place where I
could keep myself safe, that takes such a huge step
of courage for many communities of color, because the stigma
(20:39):
is great. And so I think that when we get
to a point of that type of despair, we realize
that shame in silence and isolation breeds. And when she
was able to have her friend help her go to
(20:59):
the yaw are go to the hospital when she was
able to speak her pain, the pain no longer wrapped
the shame in a way that kept her trapped. And
I think that's really powerful. That is powerful. That is
really powerful. If you have not included something like that
in your book yet, Dr Jenny, just go back and
(21:22):
and incorporate that for the follow up, okay, because that
that is so impactful, it really is. I'm just my
mind is blowd I'm telling y'all, I literally have all
these questions and things I want to keep asking because
we rarely get to see behind the velvet rope of
the Asian American community. Let me preface that by saying,
I know neither of you are in a position where
(21:42):
you can be the voice for the entire culture right
that you can speak from your own lens and your
own perspective, just like I can't say for all black
women in the world. It's this. I just want to
hear from you from your own perspective for what's happened
since to date? How are you doing? I have so
many thoughts and feelings in response to that, But Tracy,
(22:03):
I just wanted to say, first, thank you for naming
that that we are not the voice for the Asian
American community, because that is exactly what Constance found herself
in in that position. And so I hope that as
we continue to share our voices and listen to different perspectives,
that we hold space for a nuance in each other's
(22:26):
lives within our culture. And one thing in terms of
thinking about stigmas to break and to just address is
when she said that she felt selfish for thinking of
herself first. And I feel like that's something that is
so cultural as well, that we're taught not to think
of ourselves first, whether it is thinking about for our
(22:49):
family or at all. Right, absolutely that if I am
thinking about myself, then I'm really not showing deference or
filial piety or reverence really at that point to those
who are older, the elders in my family, my lineage,
my community, whoever they may be. And so how am
(23:09):
I doing? I guess I'm trying to really disrupt all
of that personally, yes, because it's it's a mix of, Yes,
we still want to honor our ancestors, the things that
have been passed down, things values, etcetera. But we can
still also be our whole selves. And so where do
(23:32):
we strike that balance? And I think that so often
we're looking for a very cookie cutter way or a
specific framework. But the truth is that it's different for
all of us, and it shouldn't be the same. We
really shouldn't be looking for a specific framework. And the
more that we talk about ourselves and more that we
have conversations and across communities, for you as black women
(23:53):
and then ourselves as Asian women, that is in itself
so important for us to just disrust up whatever status
quo it currently is. I love that, Dr Jenny, how
are you? Oh it has been a couple of years,
It is my response. I think being a mental health
(24:15):
kind of practitioner, we almost got like an intimate lens
into how people were coping not just pandemic, but you know,
seeing many Asian American clients, it was pandemic plus anti
Asian hate plus really that was all alongside Black Lives Matter.
It was alongside so many social issues. And here in Texas,
(24:39):
right school shootings, there were so many things that we're
activating our nervous systems, having ways to cope with that
that were helpful, that were small enough that I didn't
have to feel exhausted to take care of myself. Right,
(25:00):
It wasn't that I had two or three hours in
a day to take care of myself. I had to
find moments to do it. Maybe it was two minutes
to do it because we were I mean, we were
compressed from all sides. I'm hopeful because Tracy, you were
saying earlier, it's a very rare experience to almost pull
(25:21):
back the curtain in our community. And I feel like,
maybe for the first time in my life, people are
even interested in wanting to see behind the curtain. Okay,
because for so much of my life, I felt as
though people didn't even see me as having a race.
(25:43):
I was invisible. Were the other, the other, the other category,
the box that you check where you might fill in
something but that may or may not matter. And I
think in the last few years, with stop Asian hate
and all of these concurrent things, our community kind of said,
(26:04):
you know what, We're sick of being other. We're sick
of having other people tell our stories. And I think,
like Alice said, when we started to verbalize this idea
that we actually had a place here that allowed us
psychologically to take up space in a way that our
(26:27):
community has never done before, and for the first time
in decades, people are actually seeking out therapy and they're saying,
I want to work on my racial identity. That was
never a reason people sought therapy, especially Asian American clients
five ten years ago. You know, I think that that
(26:48):
needs to be a standard. Yes, that should be woven
into depression treatment, that should be woven into anxiety, that
should be woven into the full experience, because my guesses
how you see the world and how the world sees
you impacts all of those mental health components. Right, So
(27:13):
I am tired some days, but I am so excited
many days. Oh. I love that. I love that because
you guys are doing the work like acknowledging your own
voice in the middle of what others may assume to
be a cultural voice, assumed to be You're saying, that's
not exactly how I feel. And I love that for
(27:35):
all of us. I feel like that's exactly why this
podcast exists in the spirit of individuality. Is we continue
to move forward. Now that we're talking about Constance wools
journey and everything that's happened, What was your true reaction
(27:59):
when the sweets happened, whether internal or external. When she
first tweeted them, I would say for me, I honestly
did not know how to feel. But I felt a
strange pressure to have to feel something because everyone in
the community was either having to feel something as well
(28:20):
or really truly felt something. So there was this collective
like what are you thinking? What are you feeling? That's happening?
That was hard for me to grasp and honestly just
left me more confused than anything, because at the end
of the day, at a tweet, you don't have the
full story. For me, as an educator, when I teach children,
(28:42):
I remember that or I keep in mind that I
only see students for X amount of time during a day.
So when children as young as pre k through fifth grade,
those are the the grades that I teach for music,
I see them being their musical selves. I see them
share of who they are. But I can never know
the full story without years of relationship building and knowing
(29:06):
their families and understand the community. So how can we
make of judgment on one person's one moment and yet
that still happened and continues to happen right well, because
we create our own stories, we are excellent storytellers. You
can just see one thing and it will ignite that
flame that you make a story up. I think we
(29:29):
all have I don't know, these preconceived notions, and we
don't give people to benefit of the doubt, or we
want to feel like we belong with the masses. In
some cases, just go along to get along, you know.
I think this is why I'm not on Twitter, because
I think it feeds a frenzy within seconds, right, And
(29:54):
it doesn't promote question asking. It promotes the labeling, the judgment,
the let me analyze this five words sentence, and it
does not invite people into conversation. And so when it
came out, I didn't see it on Twitter because I'm
not on there, but I saw it come up in
(30:15):
social media. Right. It was like Constance will blah blah blah.
And I think my initial thought was, like anything, this
comes from just being a psychologist, and I always tell
my kids I'm a professional question asker, that's my job,
and so it just prompted questions like WHOA, this is
maybe not what I expected, but I don't know. I'm
(30:37):
not sure what would prompt her to say something like that.
And I think that curiosity is often what's missing? And
I think Constance said that in the episode right that
had people even just took the moment to pause and say,
hold on, what's going on? How is she? We would
have perhaps seen more and so in for Constance, I
(31:02):
wish we had taken a moment to just ask, just
ask a simple question. This is why aimless scrolling is
like dangerous right in my opinion, because I just feel like,
if you're scrolling and you're not in the best place,
one of those in between moments where you're trying to
find a break but you're really mad about something at work,
you see a tweet like that and you're like, oh,
(31:22):
I can't believe she's in the best position of her
how could she even start to feel Whereas like me
just personally because I'm normally minding my business. When I
read it, I was like, oh, she probably just didn't
want to end vacation, Like clearly she's off work, and
that's so Perspective is so important, Diversity of thoughts is
so important. The National Latino and Asian American Study reported
(31:43):
that while eighteen percent of general US population sought mental
health services and resources in recent years, only eight point
six percent of Asian Americans did, so, Dr Jenny, can
you explain some reasons why this could be absolutely? I
think we can start with what we've talked about before,
which is the stigma and shame associated with mental illness,
(32:06):
and when culturally there is a framing that any kind
of even touch mentioned inference to mental health is then
seen as severe mental illness. I grew up hearing people say, oh,
well that person is just crazy. Right. You go from
like I'm struggling to this person can't be a functioning
(32:28):
member of society, and that escalation creates such a strong
framing that I don't ever want to be there. That's scary, right,
And so to admit mental health struggle is the first part. Right.
If you can't admit that you're struggling, there's no way
you can move forward and seek help. So I think
(32:49):
unwrapping from the stigma and the shame is the first piece.
But I think being Asian American and operating under model
minority myth also created an another level of pressure because
model minority myth is this idea where Asian Americans are
this caricature monolith where we're all super high, achieving, hard
(33:10):
working to just have it all together in this world. Well,
if that is the narrative for your community, then how
would you ever want to step outside of that and say, no,
actually I don't have my stuff together. I'm struggling and
I need help. So I think that is an added
layer that comes from outside our community, because people outside
(33:34):
of us are viewing us under that stereotype. And then
I think there's kind of to two additional pieces. One
is that being a person of color, where you may
not speak the language, you may not understand the medical system,
you have lots of mistrust for a system that is
kind of scary at times, what is going to bring
(33:58):
you to the doors of a often white psychologist, often
white psychiatrist. And there's also fears a lot from people
who have come from war torn regions, like the idea
of sitting down for an intake and this person asking
you all these questions that in itself can remind you
of times where you were interrogated under political regimes. So
(34:22):
there are lots of kind of connections to that power
differential that I think Western psychology does not do a
very good job of dismantling. And then let me tell you, right,
cultural competency was one course in my entire doctorate training program,
you serious, and that one course during one semester, did
(34:46):
not ever talk about Asian Americans. They did not talk
about Latin X, they didn't talk about a whole bunch
of communities, and they did not talk to us about
how to interface with communities that were different from ourselves.
And then is it safe to safe? What they said
could also have been completely incorrect, exactly right, because the
(35:11):
models of training were informed by white Western models. So
I think there's that mismatch of providers then, who truly
can care for our communities in ways that are effective?
And one example is power differential in Asian society is
a big one hierarchy. So yes, doctor, whatever you say, doctor,
(35:34):
if you tell me to do it, I will do it.
But that doesn't work in a therapeutic relationship when you're
trying to empower your clients make their own decisions. And
so that model of setting it up where the therapist
is the expert cannot be effective with many communities of color.
(35:55):
And really quick shout out to text therapy because I
enjoyed text therapy and Jenny, by you saying the interrogation
vibe sometimes of the therapist session. That is very much
a thing, and sometime people just need help. I know
that constant shared at the table that she swallowed her
abuse and just endured it right, just displaying an emotional
stoicism that was super not healthy. I probably do it
(36:17):
myself now that I'm the more I read this and
listen to this, I'm like, Okay, that sounds like me.
So Alice, I know you recently shared a blog post
about a similar idea, which was unlearning this emotional suppression.
Can you share more about what that journey has looked
like for you, because I'm personally all ears. Yeah. Actually,
like quote Dr Jenny in this blog post and the
(36:38):
quote that I shared of hers was that emotional stoicism
and Asian culture is not a deficit or shortcoming. It
was a protective mechanism against the brutality of poverty, colonization, trauma,
and dire life circumstances that our parents and ancestors only
hoped to survive. I mean, iift away from blame for
(37:01):
their lack of emotional engagement towards a posture of compassion
and wonder why they had to shut down their emotional
life in the first place. And this particular quote really
resonated with me because for me, as an Asian American
and I'm also a child of immigrants, I learned at
a really young age to suppress my emotions, so whatever
(37:21):
I felt didn't really matter in the larger context of
what my family was doing in order to survive. So
I learned from a very young age that crying was weak,
that showing any emotion was weak, that anything that could
be read as positive wasn't necessarily to be shown from
an exterior position, and that could be of celebrations as well.
(37:47):
So I literally learned to silence all emotions from a
very young age and to just do as told obey.
Essentially and in certain ways already subscribed to norms that
Asian American women have in our society. But for me
it was really important, upon again teaching being a big
(38:09):
part of my life and just my personhood, to learn
what it is to feel in my initial therapy sessions,
and I also had a long search for an Asian
American therapist who would serve me because I just did
not feel comfortable with going to someone who had a
(38:30):
different racial identity where I would have to explain things too.
But some of our initial conversations was just what is
it that I was feeling? And I couldn't necessarily even
articulate what it was that I felt, because when someone
asked you, how are you feeling, right, it's just the
answer that we are used to a society is I'm good,
(38:51):
how about you? Right? And there's nothing further. But if
I really dug deep, what is it that I was feeling?
And it was almost like learning how to communicate again
and and understanding, oh, when I use feelings words like
when I teach, it's beyond sad and happy, Perhaps this disappointed,
Perhaps it is frustrated, right, and where is the root
(39:11):
of all of that? So it took a lot of
continuous and continues to take peeling of different layers, and
for me, I always rooted it back to things that
can make me feel joy, just to be able to
be part of that healing process, and as a music
teacher that is in music and also thinking about how
(39:32):
can I empower future Asian American children too be able
to have this conversation already. That made me create a
book that talks about what it means to feel and
send her time within the book to just literally have
a child feel something and let that be visual and
let that be seen and heard and talks about. So
(39:55):
that's really important. And I wrote that in my book
We are Golden Um and it's the powerfulness For me.
I'm just loving it. Dr Jenny. I feel proud to
know and that you're here together. We had no idea
about the connection that you have and for what you're doing.
And you said I actually used a quote from Dr Jenny.
(40:17):
I was like, oh my gosh, that is this perfect Alice.
As a leader in the Stop Asian Hate movement, how
do you manage the feeling that people have certain expectations
of you? For me, I feel that no matter what
I do, whether it is as a leader in the
Stop Asian Hate movement, which by the way, really should
be activate Asian Power, Activate Asian Joy movement, not just
(40:42):
stopping something, I will always have expectations placed on me.
And for me, I just route myself back in why
I spoke in the first place and what is my why?
I think that's something that is so important to continue
thinking about. What is our why? When we do anything?
Is our why? Self fulfilling? Is it for the community?
(41:03):
Can it be both? And I think I really seek
something that is more complete and whole, where I can
share this aspect of my experience, I can share the
stage and invite different people within the Asian American diaspora
identify as East Asian and specifically Chinese, specifically American born Chinese.
(41:26):
That's a lot of very specific things, but within American culture,
American born Chinese folks have a lot of platform in
comparison to so much of our diaspora. So what does
it mean to not just have my voice there but
also invite different voices within our community to share the stage,
(41:51):
and not just share the stage, but share the conversation
that goes beyond our diaspora. And it's really intersectional. As
an Asian American women teaching black and Latin X youth,
that is something that when people here that have a
lot of issue with it have definitely damned me, commented
(42:11):
on and continue to yes. Yes, It's almost like, well,
why can't I care both for Asian community members and
for Black children and for Latin X children. And I'm
only naming racial differences so we can have compassion for
(42:33):
all of our communities. Because if we really look beyond
the history books that white folks have written over time,
we can find the intersections where even the term Asian
American is inspired by the Civil rights movement, So how
can there not have been any connection in that? Right?
Who knows the history of Malcolm X and your e Coachiyama?
(42:56):
And so much of what I continue to advocate for
is full or representation, but in the form of Asian
American history being time schools and not just as an
isolated chapter or as an isolated book. But how is
this connected to all of our histories and not just
a monthly celebration. Right, definitely not, because as I tell
(43:16):
my students, we can celebrate our heritage within a month,
but our heritages are meant to be celebrated all year round,
every year our whole lives, and so people will always
have expectations. But I just seek to continue dismantling the
status quote because the status quote just simply is not
enough to serve us at this moment. And again, I
(43:37):
also seek to amplify youth. I often now call myself
an amplifier before I even think about myself as an educator,
because if we really put them make up to children,
children will tell you, and we as adults must listen.
We must listen to what it is that they want
for their future. And it is my job as an
(43:58):
educator then to make sure that I use my power
to amplify their voices in different spaces. Oh I love that.
That is so powerful. Come on, amplifier. Imagine what it
would be like if it was instead of stop Asian hate,
that it was amplify or activate Asian love. That's so
(44:21):
good that put it on a T shirt. I love
it and we are more than just a T shirt quote.
I just I didn't want to minimize the moment. I
just love it. Guys, cal we love you. I'm gonna
tell you something. We could talk. I literally, I mean
for hours and hours and hours. I have grown. I
(44:43):
have really given myself. This is some challenging work, but
you have to make the investment. And so I'm so
grateful to both of you. Dr Jenny and Alice, thank
you both so much for being here with us at
the virtual Red Table. Thank you, thank you. We want
to know how you are feeling about this new season
(45:04):
or Red Table Talk. We are open to talk about
any and everything with you, so please send in your
questions because we read them every single one. The email
address is Let's Red Table that at red table talk
dot com. And we also have this fantastic new tool
you can leave a voice message for us one hike, Yes,
(45:27):
speak pipe dot com slash Let's red Table Fact. We
are so so thankful for you for listening with us today.
We want you to make sure you subscribe on I
Heart Radio app and please rate this podcast on Apple Podcast.
We want to five Let's Meanly. We'll be back next
week for another episode of Let's Red Table back I Thig.
(45:54):
Thank you to our executive producers Jada Pinkett Smith, Ellen
Rocketson and Palin Jethrow. And thank you to our producer
Kyla Knereu and our associate producer Yolanda Chow. And finally,
thank you to our sound engineer, Stephanie Aguilar
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