Parental Alienation (Teddy Riley recap)

Parental alienation is the silent epidemic tearing families apart in America. Tracy and Cara welcome mother and daughter Carolyn MacCloud and Caitlyn O’Neil who reunited after six years of separation. Carolyn gets real about how her alcohol addiction played a role in her husband gaining full custody of their children–despite his domestic violence and child endangerment charges. Caitlyn details how she got out from under her father’s influence and is fighting to unlearn her father’s lies. Plus, both guests share the hope they have in being reunited with the rest of their family.

The stories you’re about to hear are solely the experiences and opinions of our guests.

Parental Alienation Resources

• Parental Alienation Science and Law
• Understanding Parental Alienation
• Coaching and Consulting Services
• Victim to Hero

Hosts Information:

Cara Pressley
@thecareercheerleader Cara’s Instagram
@TheCareerCheerleader Cara’s Facebook
@the1cheering4U Cara’s Twitter
@FeelinSuccessful Cara’s TikTok
Cara’s Website

Tracy T. Rowe
@tracytrowe Tracy’s Instagram
@troweandco Tracy’s Facebook
@tracytrowe Tracy’s Twitter
@tracytrowe Tracy’s TikTok
Tracy’s Website

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hey, y'all, hey, what's up, and welcome the let's Red
table that I'm tracy t row and I'm Kral Pressley
and we are listen. We're diving in the family dynamics
once again in this episode, but in a totally new way, uh,
and you know, successful ways, as red table talk likes
to do. Today's episode is focused and centered on parenttal alienation,

(00:24):
which is one parent viciously turning their child against the
other parents. That is horrible and I just can't even
imagine that. You know, my parents were divorced when I
was super young, Carl, so I didn't grow up in
the household with like my mom and dad, like my
older siblings. But to hear poor Ashland and her story

(00:45):
and what happened with her and and dizzy and what
Jennifer did, I just want to say that, yeah, there
were times when my mom may have said some things
that were not necessarily the most positive things to say
about my dad. However, Comma, she didn't go in like Jennifer. Jennifer,
what are your thoughts on Jennifer? Bless your heart. You know,

(01:07):
Jennifer starting out with bless her heart. I generally say
that when I don't know what to say. My bless
your heart really means that I pray the Lord comes
and surrounds it. Yeah, that's the southern bless your heart
means blesh your heart too. No, yeah, it was hard
to watch her overall, just because I think this season
the red table talks, so many things with parenting are
being discussed, the different facets of being a parent, and

(01:30):
I just I never ever tapped into the parents who
are truly abusing their power, like really using their words
to gain their best interests, like just completely tear someone
else down. I think it's ridiculous. It was hard to watch.
A long time ago, actually, probably about twenty years now,

(01:52):
I saw Teddy Rowley at King's dominion. So it was
hard to watch him be hurt because in my mind
we are good friends. Okay, so, wait minute, what is
King's dominion? Kings Dominion is an event park in Richmond, Virginia. So, like,
you know, six flags, right, it's Virginia's version. And so
because you saw him, it may kinship to your friends. Okay,

(02:14):
this in my head. Okay, okay, so one time it
didn't even speak. One time in Afar, hey, taddy, listen
and I saw Jaya singing no digity on the on
the on the episode. But you know, it was hard
to watch. I will say that what I take from
what you said is that when you have an alignment
or fill an affinity for someone, it is hard to

(02:36):
watch them be mistreated. Jennifer, she didn't have her answer,
her response, she did not have any remorse. She didn't.
I mean, dinny owned his ish. Okay, dinny owned his
dangna Ish. Jennifer not so much. She came up with
that lame when we were young. Yeah, you know, lack
of accountabilities and all time high. It's people. People don't care.

(02:59):
I think she cared about herself. I think she cared
about trying to stick it to dizzy and that's what
she did. That's what she did fully. Um. Yeah, it's
difficult to why even again back to tell you, rally
like he a Samma King's dominion, that is a family part,
that's a family place. Like this is an accident. So
it is hard to just see again people abusing their

(03:20):
power and I think, you know, this episode was a
clear example. I think people immediately want to say that
women are the root of all this and women do
it and they're gonna hold your back. But that's why
I'm excited about today's episode, because our guests actually had
an issue with the dad. So you know we're not

(03:40):
gonna we're not just placing this on women. It is
not women having an attitude or being rude or whatever
people may want to say. But yeah, it happens on
both sides. Well, one thing we know for sure is
that our episode today includes a phenomenal story of reunited
and so I can't wait because it's going to be fantastic.

(04:01):
Our community is our backbone and we love to hear
from you. We've asked our community what they thought of
this episode and so many of you related. Here are
some of your answers. Okay, well, listen. Stephanie Hacox said,
I haven't spoken or seen my daughter since two thousand
and eight because of the lies and brainwashing of my

(04:22):
ex husband. It's horrible. I lost touch with both my
kids due to my ex's attempt to keep me out
of their lives. That's it's so heartbreaking. Some of these
oh my gosh, I just I mean, you don't want
to know that there are people that relate to the
show as much as you know there are people that
relate to the show. So we're grateful to you, Stephanie,

(04:42):
that you shared and we're hoping that you have reconciliation,
because that's just hard. Dana. George Orensby said, I know
about this topic all too well. It's been the reason
I pledged that, if my relationship ended, I would never
speak negatively about or keep my children's father from them.
I remember how hurtful it was as a child. Dana,

(05:05):
good for you. We are giving you two thumbs up
on that. Rachel Smith said, I so feel this. My
ex and his parents have kept my daughter away. Oh
that's unfortunate with the parents involved. Right last time I
saw her she was seven. She's now sixteen. Pivotal years,
pivotal you. She's a completely different child from seven to sixteen. Rachel,

(05:27):
we send our loving, positive energy to you and Rob
Woodburn said. I have been alienated from my seventeen year
old daughter since she was eleven. Love your children more
than you hate your ex. Gives me hope. I look
forward to the day I see her again. Rob, we
hope for you that that comes sooner rather than later
for both you and your seventeen year old daughter. Thank you,

(05:49):
community for sharing and being transparent. Absolutely, and keep those
great comments coming. We love your engagement with us. We're
going to take a quick break, but when we get
back will be joined by two incredible guests from our
Red Table Talk Community and we're bringing to ourtc community

(06:11):
members to our virtual red table today who actually are
mother and daughter. That's the first. That's a let's red table.
That first. I love it. I have the honor of
introducing Caroline, who is the mother. Caroline McLeod is a
mother of three, but she's been alienated from two of
her children for the past ten years. After enduring years

(06:34):
of domestic violence from the father of her children, she
filed for divorce. Her ex husband used her struggles with
alcohol addiction against her in court, gaining full custody of
their children and slowly turning them against her. Caroline is
here to share her story and shine a light on
this epidemic. Thank you for joining us on let's Red

(06:54):
table that, Caroline. Thank you for having me. Caitlin O'Neill
thought her alm was choosing to not be a part
of her life, but after six years of being alienated
from her mom, she learned the truth. Her Dad had
been lying to her and her two siblings for years.
So caitlin built up the courage to reach out to
her mom and they have been reconnected ever since. But

(07:15):
now CAITLIN has no relationship with her two siblings, who
are still under her dad's influence. So we are grateful
that you both could join us so we can share
both you and your mom's perspectives on this experience. So
thank you, welcome and thanks for being a part of
this with us. Thank you for having me. Thank you
so much to both of you. We really appreciate it.

(07:43):
WE'RE gonna kick it off by going ahead and talking
about the actual full episode. This is the part of
the show where we reveal which moments made us pause, rewind,
listen again and just say what. Wait, what? When gammy
revealed they are being alienated from a family member and
they didn't know why, Gammy said, we've had to deal

(08:05):
with it. This person didn't want her child to be
a part of our family, and it was. It was
devastating and we don't even know why. We don't even
know what happened. It's the niece, it's the cousin and
they're out of the family. That's hard parental alienation is
one of those things, like domestic violence, we all know
somebody who's been affected by it in one way or another.

(08:25):
Many times we may not know what the word is
that they're experiencing, but yeah, it's my experience that a
lot of people have experienced this same thing and there's
such a revelation to when I talked to so many
different parents across the country about they finally feel like
they've got a name to what they've been experiencing for
two years, three years, five years, ten years, and so

(08:46):
it helps that to give them some validation as well.
And having the name makes all the differences, like hey,
I know what this is and be I know now
that it has a name or term, I'm not alone, right,
and you can start to kind of dissect it, right,
what are the pieces? Am I playing a part? Is
it me or and then you can also cannot, as
Tracy would say, affirm yourself and say no, this actually

(09:09):
is not me, it's not only me, it's not all
my fault, my responsibility. With dizzy was one of those
parents who, in my opinion, was a victim of a
lot of what was going on and you know, he
straight up took responsibility for his actions and I think
his parents. We do hold on to a lot of
that guilt and it's really hard to let go of

(09:30):
the guilt. But once you realize that you're not crazy,
your reality is not being distorted by all of this,
then you can start to see through a lot of
the abuse that is currently going on and start to realize,
oh my gosh, I really was a victim and a
lot of this, and I do think he was a victim,
and just as much as his daughter was. But he
wanted to carry that guilt, which is sad in itself

(09:51):
as well. M Hm. That was sad because for Ashland,
she literally internalized what her mother said. Right, she would
a bad things about him. My first feeling was, oh
my God, she's saying bad things about me because it's
part of me, right. So I would internalize all these things,
Jennifer's negativity toward dizzy. She's like, well, wait a minute,

(10:14):
he's a part of me, so if what you're saying
is negative about him, what you're saying is negative about
me too. And she literally made those be about her.
It really affected her self esteem, her identity. She had
a lot of different issues that was just based on
what her mother said about her dad. And then, interestingly enough,
Jada thought, wait a second, mom, should you have alienated

(10:37):
Me From My Dad? And I thought that this was
such an important part. This was a fantastic, distinguishable moment
for me that Gammy made sure that she told not
only Jada but the world that Jada's Dad may have
had questionable decisions, but he wasn't a bad father and

(10:58):
even though when their parents, ants or x is involved,
they may not have the best parenting skills, but that
doesn't make them be bad people and that you should
be alienated from them just because they may let you
stay up later eat cake for breakfast. Right, that's a
totally different animal. Right, all right. Well, then there's alienation
and there's like protection. Right, there may be some instances

(11:21):
where you need to keep a child away from a
parent for a protection instance situation for themselves or yourself,
but the alienation, I think, is the single sided control
that this episode helps me kind of point out and
really identifying and understand. Let's tap into the story of

(11:42):
Ashlan's mom letting Ashlyn meet dizzy just so he would
sign away his parental rights. My Kid's Stepdad telling me,
don't worry, I'll make sure she never takes your children
away from you again. And the minute the papers were
signed and the car doors were shut and everybody drove off,
that was the last time I saw I thought that

(12:03):
was so manipulative. Caitlin and Caroline, let's hear from you
on this. As an alienated child, my dad, I know,
pushed for my step mom to adopt me. That breaks
my heart. My mom is my mom. She carried me
for nine months. I'm part of her and I would
never want that. I felt for Ashlyn. She's losing a

(12:23):
piece of her and even with like when she was
talking about how she internalized what her mom said, I
did too. My Dad always was constantly putting me down
and comparing me to my mom. Oh, you're a liar,
just like her, oh you look just like or Oh,
why do you act like her, and stuff like that,
but I didn't know any better. That's how I was raised,
that's how I was taught. I was with her until
I was ten before I got taken away. So I

(12:45):
was like for ten years. This is who I became,
and now you're telling me I'm not an okay person. Okaitlyn,
how did that make you fail? Oh my gosh, I
felt like I became worthless, like I didn't have a voice. And, truthfully,
through all of what I've been through, I learned I
don't have voice. The voice that I had was gone.
You got taken away, and I don't think a lot

(13:07):
of people realize that. Is that when even just a
normal divorce, they're trying to do what's right for the kids,
but they don't ever take what the kids say or
they tell the kids that this is what they're gonna
do and they're gonna use big words and we don't
understand that. I think really truthfully, everything needs to be
about the kids and what they need and what they want,

(13:29):
and I just I'm firm on that. They should have
a voice. They should decide who they want to live with,
who they want to see. Even though my siblings and
I we don't see each other and we don't talk.
I know there are times where I don't see Ey
die with them and I don't have a say for them,
but people act like I do. That's so interesting because
as an alienated child, you definitely feel strongly about it.

(13:50):
I can tell you, as a child of divorce, I too,
I identify with some part of what you said about
not being able to have any say so. And absolutely
the parents may have thought they did what was best
for us, but in reality they did what was best
for them and we were just kind of stuck in
the middle. But there's a problem with that also, guys,

(14:13):
is that, you know, we see a lot of kids
who are fourteen, fifteen, sixteen, even seventeen years old who
are making life decisions for themselves to cut out a
loving relationship with a parent, and we have a court
system currently that's allowing that to happen as well, and
these kids don't have the wherewithal to understand how some

(14:33):
of those life decisions can really have long term ramifications
for them going down the road. I felt for Dizzey
when they came and basically terminated as parental rights, and
my excess tried doing that to me as well, saying
that the girls want their step mom to adopt them,
and I always said, Oh hell no, there's no reason
for that. They don't understand. And if you have a

(14:53):
parent who he was doing this in order to save
some child support. Our child support system is so broken
as it is. Also, parents lose their driver's license. If
they don't pay child support, they can have their wayes Garnish,
you can go to jail. I know parents who have
lost everything with huge amounts of back child support owed
and the courts don't seem to offer any kind of leeway.

(15:15):
And so for some parents that may be the only
way out too, which is really sad. And then to
hold on to that guilt as well well. And then
the way that Jennifer did it, y'all, I mean it
half a daughter's present and have him sign and then
basically used that to say, see, here's the concrete proof

(15:36):
your dad doesn't want you. He just gave you a way.
It's like use the kids as Pollos that day. How
is that healthy for your kids? It's not. But to
your point earlier, these children are making decisions. Jennifer said
she was a child, she was young, they were young,
and then the reality is it's right, she's right. They
did their best with what they had. WHO DID THEIR BEST?

(15:57):
But it doesn't make it right that. What I'm saying is,
at their age that was their best decision making skill
that they thought. The problem was she was manipulative with
her the intentionality was felt. I really appreciate the fact
that you are so glass half fool, because, Jennifer, it's
not glass half fool. That is she is. She was

(16:18):
an immature person who was terrible. That was her best decision.
I just said she was manipulative. I'm agreeing with you.
We're the same page. Actually, no, but I was gonna
add some other adjectives. I don't think she was doing
her best. I don't think that was her doing her
best when she knew that she was literally taking her
children away from their biological father intentionally to keep them

(16:41):
from them for years. I don't think that was her
doing her best. I think that was her being hurtful
and hateful. She was doing what she felt was best
for her to maintain control with her manipulative mind. You
hit it on the head. She was trying to gain
control and if you listen to a lot of the
experts like dot the Baker, Dr Harmon and others who

(17:02):
have done a lot of research in this area, they
actually classify this as a form of family violence as
well as child abuse. Right, because that's a form of
power and control. Right, absolutely, and when I say it's
her best as well, I think it's just it's necessary
to identify that. People just don't mentally mature right. They

(17:22):
just don't. She was in her mind. She didn't care
to consider anyone additional and poor dizzy, he just signed
away and literally just cut off. It sounds like from
that moment forward my heart broke for dizzy. It did,
because he actually was a father who wanted to be
there and cared about the children in a way that

(17:45):
would have heavily benefited their life throughout their life. And
the point that he made that was a powerful truth.
At the table, right at Red Table, he said, God,
to love your children more than you hate your act.
I agree you with willow, though. We need to make
those into shirts right. I played middleman during my parents

(18:06):
divorce because they couldn't be in the same room. If
they put that hatred aside and just said, okay, we've
got three beautiful kids who are struggling and can't do this,
I think life would have been easier for all of
us and I don't think I would have lost my
mom in a sense. And I hate fuels so much
more than love and it's so sad and it breaks

(18:29):
my heart. Truthfully, I wish not to quote a Beatles Song,
but love makes the world go round. I mean it does. Yeah, not,
I completely relate. Yes, all we need is love. It
took me a while to to care a little bit
more about my son's father, right, because we don't have
the best relationship, but once I recognized that he was

(18:51):
needed to create this human that I love, do you
just understand and you just appreciate them for what they
could contribute to your life? That took a lot of growth.
Took a lot of growth. Okay, okay, how long did
it take you to get to that? I want to
say about year ten and you start to I think
I started analyze how much work is required to hate someone. Right,
it's part of just growth overall. It takes a lot

(19:14):
to hold onto. It's a lot of energy to hate.
You thought you didn't like. Yeah, it's just a lot.
It's a lot of energy to maintain. Hey, the one
thing that you, Caitlin, actually car I don't think you
know this either, that I was an adoptive parent. I
adopted my nephew. He was actually abandoned by his mother
and at the time my brother was not in a

(19:34):
position to take him and so, in order to keep
him out of the system, I adopted him, and so
that's why, when you said Jennifer was doing the best
she could, I was like, yeah, I don't think so,
because the last thing I wanted in my forties was
to adopt a five year old, but in order to
keep him safe, protected and make sure he was able
to go to school and keep him in the family

(19:55):
and out of the system, I made that sacrifice for him.
Now it was interesting because of around year ten eleven,
he started wanting to really be with his dad and
it took us several years, but I was able to
go and get the adoption revoked and my brother and
his wife were able to adopt my nephew, and so
that was some part of an alienation for him, he felt.

(20:17):
And now, interestingly enough, my nephew doesn't talk to me
because they made him believe that I was the wicked witch, crazy. Wow, wow, wow.
It was just a matter of them hiding their truth.
It was like they'd rather hide their truth about what
they didn't do instead of focusing on the truth and
trying to really do what was best for the child.

(20:39):
And so there we go. What moments of the episode
mirrored your own experiences? Carolyn and Caitlin, as you watched,
I saw a lot of similarities until what I went
through and what I talked to other parents about, specially

(21:00):
with some of the false allegations that Alissa had experienced
with teddy trying to do things outside of the court
and having a contract and then having the courts not
recognized the contract. So there are a lot of similarities.
What do you think, Caitlin? I really resided with Teddy's kids.
I'm an alienated sister and I feel for them. I

(21:20):
was close with my siblings. We went through a traumatic
event together and my dad's I helped take care of them,
but I'm their big sister. They look up to me.
I really I felt for them. I know the pain
that they're feeling. I can feel it, I know what
it is. But even with Ashlyn, like when she was
talking about how she internalized the hate that our mom
had for her dad, and it's like, I know how
you feel and I know what you're going through, and

(21:43):
I just I did. I wanted to crawl through the
screen and give her a big old hug and tell
her it's okay. There's more people like you out there
and we just it's almost like all the alienated kids
all need to get together and just have one big
group hub, because I feel like that's what we need right.
Are there any chanizations or groups, or even like social
media groups or anything that you participate in or belong to? CAITLIN,

(22:07):
there's a few people that I'm friends with, like on Facebook,
that are alienated kids and I know I talked to them.
I'm not really a part of any group because a
lot of alienated kids we don't like to talk about
what happened to us. There's trauma to it and it's
hard to talk about it. It puts us back in
that fight mode and I know personally I'll put myself
back into that mode sometimes. But but, like you said,

(22:27):
you may not want to talk about it and then
I tracy, I've shared this with you too, like I had, instance,
I was somewhat alienated aunt. But to Caitlin's point, I
was a kid during the process. So my brother had
a daughter and then their family things just grow apart
and by the time I got grown it was like
double Dutch. How do I jump in here and become

(22:48):
family again right when we used to be close? But
I was a kid and so it's it's different, even
not just brother, sister, mother child, but like aunt or right.
How do you RECON act after all that time? Right?
How do you reconnect? Caroline? What led up to your
alienation and how did you attempt to process or cope

(23:10):
with what was happening? Sure, so, I was in an
abusive relationship for almost ten years with at the father
of my children. I have three kids. There was a
lot of verbal abuse, there was some documented domestic violence
as well. This was the third time that I had
actually filed for divorce because I found out that when
I was in the hospital with our newborn son, that
my ex husband was actually cheating on me. And during

(23:34):
our marriage I was a recovering alcoholic for eight years
and I relapsed going through the divorce, the stress being
kind of pretty much a single mom during most of
the divorce with a newborn, a two year old and
Caitlin was eight at the time. And then, as alcoholics,
we make some bad decisions. I found myself in another
abusive relationship, but I certainly was willing to get the

(23:55):
help that I needed. As parents, we absolutely make mistakes.
I'm not a perfect parent. I have my demons. I
have dealt with my demons and I have tried to
work through my demons, but my ex husband used that
against me. He was able to get social services involved.
We had a dependency in act case opened up against
me for my alcoholism. Primarily I lost my home during

(24:17):
that time, I lost my business, I lost my children
and one by one, my kids went off like a
light switch. Nobody wanted to listen to me about the
documented abuse. At one point, while we were going through
our divorce proceeding, he actually came after me with a
baseball bat in front of my children and he was
charged with child endangerment from the county that we lived in.
They overlooked that. They overlooked the fact that he had

(24:38):
violated approbation with another D U I. But because I
was the alcoholic who openly admitted and I was a
mom right, I was the bad guy and so immediately
they gave custody of my children to them. My daughter,
my younger daughter, not Caitlin, but her younger sister, Brianna.
She came into a supervisor visit with me and stood

(25:01):
in front of her dad and told me, in front
of the person who was a supervising our visit. She
told me that I was dead to her and I
was no longer her mommy and I tried everything I
could to hold back those tears. There was a time
when we were trying to do some therapy together and
she's walking away with her step mom and she turns
around and kind of waves at me, and that was

(25:22):
really the last time that I saw and that was
ten years now. My son I was able to have
a little bit longer after the case closed, but even
during the case Caitlin went off like a light switch
at as well. She was angry at me. I don't
know what they were being told, but Brian won't seem
to be the only one who was willing to keep
coming to see me and, like I said, he stuck

(25:45):
around for about a year afterwards. But I've remarried. I
got sober during that time. I'll have ten years of
sobriety actually on the seventeenth of this month. Thank you. Yeah,
thank you. I don't know how I quite did that
one going through all of everything I went through, but
absolute grace and sheer grit. I can tell you she
is a superhero. She is my hero and I will

(26:07):
tell this to her to the day I die. If
I could become half the woman that she becomes, I
will be great in life. I'm not kidding. My mom
is my hero and my superhero and I love her
to die. I'M gonna put that out there. Caroline. How
does that make you feel hearing that? To go from
the light switch being turned off to hear that now? Yeah,

(26:31):
I'm so proud of my daughter. I'm proud of her
as well as the other children who are willing to
come forward and start telling their stories. I'm just a mom,
I'm just a mom. That's all I am, Um, but
it really touches my heart and it truly humbles me
because I talked to so many parents around the world
and the one thing that we always hold on to

(26:51):
is that hope that one day, one day, they'll reach
out to us, you know, and I got my miracle
with Caitlin and Disney got his miracle his daughter, but
there's so many other parents who aren't getting their miracles,
so many kids who are just holding onto that anger
and those lies and yeah, it just it breaks my heart.
It really breaks my heart. I hope that more kids

(27:13):
can come forward like Caitlyn and Ashlyn and reunite with
their parents, and it will happen I'm confident you sharing
your stories, that this will help encourage and empower, more over,
people to share their stories and find their strength and yours.
And let me just say that you were living in

(27:34):
your authenticity, even at the time when you were at
your lowest, and that was used against you because mothers.
You said, I'm just a mom. Mothers are held to
a different standard than Dad's when it comes to parenting,
and it's a dog on shame. But that is a
fact and I don't have any statistics to back that up,
but tell the listeners fight me, because I'm telling you

(27:56):
it's the fact mothers are held to a different standard,
the fact that your ex husban men had all those
documented things and was still able to use literally a
disease that you were working through against you. It's just
a dog on shame. That part, that part. These stories
are key. You guys are saving lives. CAITLIN. What was

(28:20):
life like at Your Dad's house while you were alienated
from your mom? I mean literally. I believe that there's
probably some people out there who don't even know that
this is really what they're going through. So what was
going through your head as a child in this unimaginable situation.
Truthfully angry. I was so mad. I was told that

(28:40):
my mom was going to rehab and that we would
get to see her and that everything would go back
to normal. I'd have a say again and I'd have
a voice, and so I was like, okay, cool, mom's
gonna go fix yourself, she's gonna become a good mom,
we're gonna have a great time from a great life.
Everything's gonna be perfect. I finally have this picture perfect
family that I vote just wanted. And a month turned

(29:02):
into two months, two months turned into three, three turned
into six, and then six turned into a year and
I was done. I was done. I was like, nope, okay, fine,
you obviously don't care enough to come back, then you
don't deserve to be in my life. And so that
light switch just went off, and it really did. I
told my friends I didn't have a mom, but she died.

(29:24):
It was easier to tell them that she was dead,
because at least then I can mourn the mom that
I had and not miss out on the mom I'm
not having. But not only did I missed out on
not having a mom, but I missed out on not
having my best friend. We're close, we're really close, and
that's my best friend and I can finally say that

(29:48):
anything out. If you asked me that a couple of
years ago, I probably wouldn't have said that. But but
my mom missed out on my first heart break and
my first love and going home, coming dress shopping and prom.
And you know, the biggest one for me is I
graduated with high honors in high school and stuff like
that and I was really proud of myself and my
mom missed out on my graduation and that's big for parents,

(30:10):
having their kids graduate high school. In your mind, you
were thinking that Caroline was choosing not to come to
you and not that she was being kept from you.
So your anger was directed towards her. Is that right? Yeah,
so my anger was more directed towards my mom and
I more felt like she doesn't care, why should I care?
Type of feeling. What's Your Dad telling you? Things? He

(30:33):
was kind of saying he was. He's like that little
pair key in your shoulder. Oh she's not doing this
because she's off having the time of her life. There
was one point I needed my social security for school
and we couldn't find it, and so I asked my dad.
I was like well, Hey, can you ask my mom
if she has it, and I got told that my

(30:54):
mom said that she doesn't have it, that I am
an adult and to tough fuck it out and go
figure it out myself. Did you ever have a conversation
with Caroline about that? I did, and we figured everything out.
How the air has been cleared over everything my dad
has said, and she didn't have it and she straight
up was like I don't have it. And granted now
I have a new one and stuff like that, but

(31:16):
it was still the fact of you told me I'm
an adult and to go figure it out. Okay, out,
that hurts. Okay, well then, you know what, if you're
going to tell me to be an adult about it,
then I'm gonna go be petty on facebook and make
things public and write this whole nasty note to you
and to basically telling you to go l off. Yeah,
and some of those notes I didn't even write myself.

(31:38):
My stepmom had access to into my facebook and would
post these things when they would get into fight. Not
The stepmom helping fuel the fire, stirring the book. Yes,
you know, let's stop there for a second. I have
to stop there because I'm giving real side eye to
the step mom, like what the heck, because at what

(31:59):
point the Caitlin, you're just a kid, you are in
the house, you are living what you believe is your
the best life, King Your Mom's gone, you don't know
what that is. Your Dad's feeding your small season doubt
and you're like, well, I'm gonna believe because it's my dad.
But at what point did you realize he's lying? Or
and she's and his girlfriend's involved, like how did that

(32:21):
come to be? And don't get me wrong, I did
not live my best life with my dad. I lived
your Cinderella Little Story. Me and my siblings did. Her
kids didn't do much. They got away with murder. So
we always were cleaning and always in trouble and I
didn't have a social life. I had to be there
to make sure if someone was there to watch my
siblings and stuff like that. And so I never had

(32:43):
a childhood. I got it taken away and it literally went,
you're right, right out of my hands. But to answer
your guys question, I really saw it when I asked
to have my mom at my graduation. I said, I
think it's fair that I at least can have that.
And I got told that it's not fair to my sister,
that my mom has no right to be there, and
not only that, but she has no right to be

(33:04):
there because she didn't help put me through high school.
And I'm like, okay, that still doesn't matter, that shouldn't matter,
and so I started to kind of see through those lies,
that this was about what he wanted. Not even can
you even call her? Asked her? Like he didn't even
give you. Okay, yeah, there's one piece to all of

(33:24):
this that's missing. So in the final orders of the
dependency and neglect case they put in there that mother
will not contact the girls until the girls could reach
out to contact mom first. So he used that as
a full fledged restraining order against me and the girls.
So he kep. He was the total gatekeeper and would

(33:45):
not allow those girls to reach out to me. They
were trapped, they couldn't call, they didn't even know how
to get in touch with me, and even if they
had asked, I'm not so sure he would have followed
through with their wishes. Yeah, I'm pretty sure he probably
never asked about the social security card or anything like that.
I wouldn't be shocked if he didn't. But I totally

(34:06):
forgot that was in the divorce case that we were
supposed to contact you first. I totally forgot that was
in there. But yeah, so I finally saw through the
FRI kid, probably at eighteen, and he actually kicked me
out of the home, and so that's when we kind
of reunited. What. Yeah, wait, wait, wait, wait, so you
and Ashland almost have like mirror images experiences. Yeah, kicked

(34:34):
you out over what, though, because was it a story
of he couldn't control you any longer? It wasn't even that.
It was because of my boyfriend at the time, who's
my husband now. He didn't like my husband, he didn't
like my boyfriend, and so he told me because I
wasn't there one day, probably because he was kind, but
that's true, though. He couldn't control you any long and
you know, and you are totally right, he couldn't control

(34:55):
me and I was finally I found love in a
different spot and it wasn't coming for him and I
think he felt inferior with my boyfriend, who's my husband.
So you two have thankfully reunited, which I think is
still really inspiring for other people who may be listening
and dealing with the alienation and their own families. Caitlin,
can you tell us how you and your mom finally reconnected?

(35:19):
I was supposed to go to Utah for school, and
so I was like, if I can make it till
then to go to school and Utah, I'm booking it.
I'm never coming back. This is it. By CIA Adios.
And then I got kicked out and I was like, okay, well,
now I'm lost and I have nowhere to go. Thankfully,
my boyfriend took me in. I owe him my life

(35:40):
for that till this day, and gave me a place
to stay. And then I wasn't getting stuff from my
dad and so I was like, okay, I don't know
what to do, and then I called my mom and
I figured, what's the worst that's going to happen? How
did you have the information you needed to contact your mom? Thankfully,
I grew up in the age where cell phones really
were aren't. Smartphones really weren't thing just yet. So they

(36:04):
like drilled their phone numbers into my head and I
am so thankful that my mom hadn't changed her phone
number and like some of the fifteen somebody years, because
I was able to get in contact with her. Yeah,
and sent her a text message saying hey, mom, it's Katie,
I need you, and she's like can I call you?
I was like yes, call me and we talked on
the phone for I don't know two hours, and I

(36:27):
just baaled. I was like, okay, this is my life
and I finally have my mom back, and then we
went and saw each other the next day and it
was like nothing ever skipped a beat. Caroline. What was
it like getting that text from Caitlin? It was late

(36:47):
at night, around ten fifteen or so. Wasn't quite asleep yet,
but wasn't really awake, and I hear my phone go
off and between the darkness and the blurried sleep eyes,
I read and I read rember what it said. It
said Hi, Mommy, this is Caitlin. I really need you,
and I started hitting my husband. I'm like, Randy, it's Caitlin.

(37:08):
Oh my God, Oh my God, it's Caitlin. What do
I do? And he will ask her if you can
text her. I like, Oh my God, yes, I'll text her,
I'll text her right now, and so I texted her
and I said can I call you and she said
of course, and of course. Like Caitlin said, we talked
on the phone for, I don't know, a good couple
to three hours and an ugly crying, like I am

(37:29):
now almost I'm dizzy, said, with Ashland there was a
lot of ugly crying involved as well, and I said
when can I see you? And she said how about tomorrow?
And I said absolutely, and so I went and I
picked her up and she ran to me as fast
as she possibly could and she got in the car
and I said, I only have two requests. I said one,

(37:51):
I don't want to be down here because I don't
want to run into anybody that we might know. I
said I might rather go back up north where we live,
and I said number two, I won't ask any questions
unless you want me to answer anything. And we left
it at that and I put boundaries in place. I
told everybody, let's just see how things go. I asked her,

(38:11):
I said she want to see grandma? She goes yes,
so she got to see your grandma for the first
time in six years. I said you want to see
where I live? She goes yes, I want to see
where you live, and so she got to come over
and see where I live and I said, do you
want to have dinner with us, and she said yes, please,
can I have dinner with you? I took her clothes
shopping because she didn't have any clothes, she didn't have anything,

(38:33):
and so dropped her off at her now husband's place,
where he lived with his parents, and gave him a
big hug and thanked him for helping to reunite us
as well, and that was the first twenty four hours
of US reuniting. I'm sorry, I'm right. No, it's wonderful.
It's such a wonderfully heartwarming story and I have to

(38:57):
applaud you because, Caroline, I don't know if I had
been in your position, if I would have been able
to maintain the constraint that you had, because I would
have just said, okay, I don't care where you are,
I'm coming right now, I need to see you, I
need to hug your neck. And so the fact that
you guys talked on the phone for hours and then
you said, okay, I'm gonna come tomorrow. Were you able
to get any sleep? No, I don't think so, Caitlyn,

(39:20):
what about you? Honestly, I couldn't either. I couldn't sleep either.
I was so I was so excited. I was ready
for tomorrow to be here. It was a very heartful reunion.
And then, Caitlin, how was it being back with your
mom and unlearning the things that your dad had told
you about her while you're in her presence, like realizing, wow,

(39:41):
she wasn't out here creating a whole life and not
trying to think about me, like she's been waiting on
me all this time? Curiously. It was hard. I had
to unlearn something that was programmed into me for so
many years, and so it was like, okay, I actually
it's not like this. And so I remember when night

(40:03):
we sat down and we talked and we kind of
had this conversation and I just laid everything out and
I was like, okay, this is what I was told.
Please tell me this is wrong. And of course she
was like, Oh, this is all wrong, none of this
is true, and it was definitely different. I'm still struggling
with it today. I have from it and anxiety and

(40:24):
I have separation issues and I can't go fifteen minutes
being alone or I freak out. I'm definitely a codependent
person because of this, and so it was heartfelt and
hard at the same time because one I have my
mom back, but too now I have to readjust and
relearn things and I have to relearn a whole new person. Yeah, absolutely.

(40:47):
Part of that, too, is so amazing to me, especially
for you, caroline, because how safe is it to say
that you going through your treatment and being a recovering
alcoholic and learning boundary ease and learning the steps reinforce
what you do when you connected and reconnected with tit lands,
because you sound so self actualized and so clear about

(41:10):
what kind of boundaries you wanted to establish and how
that worked for you when you guys got together. Yeah,
so I made a vow that I was just going
to be the healthiest person I could be. I had
lots of therapists who would tell me they'll come around,
they're gonna want to know who their mom is, they'll
come around, they'll come around, and I figured all right, well,
if this is true, then I want to be firmly
planted where I'm at. I want them to know that

(41:33):
I never gave up. I got very involved with several
different organizations. Are Statewide Coalition, our domestic violence coalition here
in Colorado, and I do a lot of work with
parents worldwide and I just wanted them to know that,
even though I couldn't fight in your traditional court of law,
I thought a different way and I made a vow
and I think Ashley and even said don't make the

(41:55):
same mistakes that we made. I don't want this to
ever happen to another parent and child relation to up
as long as I can possibly prevent it. It is
so heartbreaking, not only as a parent having to go
through this, but now watching my adult daughter struggle dizzy

(42:15):
and Ashland explained that while they were in each other's lives,
now they've had to work through their relationship and get
through a lot of boundary setting and understanding their own
personal needs and the needs of each other. And so
how did you to work to rebuild that once you reconnected?
It wasn't hard for Caitlin and I to rebuild that.
We already had such a strong foundation. She was actually

(42:37):
twelve when a lot of this happened, and so we
had a really strong bond and she was my mini me,
and so we were able to have that really strong
bond and keep that really strong bond together when we reconnected.
It was one of those moments of like, how you
haven't spoken to your best friend in twenty years and
the moment that you pick up the phone and you

(42:57):
hear each other's voice, you didn't skip a beat. It
was the same for me and Caitlin. Yeah, we had
a lot of things that we had to work through.
We're still working through a lot of things. Fortunately, I've
had the opportunity to spend the last ten years developing
myself and growing and learning and trying to understand everything
that has happened and help others through this process. And, Caitlyn,

(43:18):
for you, how has it been? It's been hard. Truthfully,
it's been hard. I finally am I'm learning what's going on.
My biggest question why did it happen? Why did it
happen to me? Why am I going through this? And
I ponder that every day. But not only that, but
I sit there and I worry about my brother and
my sister and stuff like that. So it's hard rebuilding this.

(43:41):
But our relationship is strong and I know that, and
so it makes it easy because, like my mom said,
she's planted her feet and she's there for me. So
I can lean on her a little bit and be like, okay,
I have no idea what I'm doing. I have no
idea and, granted, thankfully enough, I'm in therapy and I
talked with therapists and I'm working on trying to unreadwire

(44:06):
these habits, and so it's not easy, but it gets better.
I know that and I want kids out there to
know who listened to this. It does get better and
we go through this hatred not only up for our
parents but ourselves. It took me probably about a year
ago to finally realize I have hatred for myself and

(44:26):
I had to learn to tell myself I'm okay and
I'm sorry and I love you in order for me
to keep healing, because I hit this point of I
couldn't keep going and so I was like, okay, I
need to figure out what else is going on, and
I really is. Telling Myself I'm sorry helped and forgiving
yourself for yeah, I mean, you would have never thought

(44:47):
of something like that. I was the victim, but telling
myself I'm sorry for putting myself through that was like, okay,
I have somewhat of control now, okay, I can do this,
I can having control and having a voice helped you,
because you felt like you didn't have a voice for
so long, and even in the midst of that, though,

(45:08):
you were able to find a relationship, which I think
is really pretty Dang on amazing, Caitlin, and so you
mentioned that you're codependent. You acknowledge that. How has your
current relationship been altered by what you went through as
a child? It's hard. We have our ups and we
have our downs. He WORSHIPSTA GRAUND I walk on and

(45:31):
I love him for that and he is my human
he is my person. He is he's my person, he's
my best friend. But we have this and it's different
and I don't know how to put it in words
because it's a weird relationship. We really do yours. It
is ours, but we're weird people. So that's just weird people.

(45:54):
Weird People Unite. Yes, he caters to my needs and
I never had that before. I was like, Whoa, someone's
actually willing to take care of me when I'm sick,
or he waits for me outside every day when I
get out of work in school and brings my bag
in for me. And so I've had this free sixty
in my life where the one man that I trusted

(46:18):
the most was like, I'm not going to do that
and then now I have this person who is willing
to wait on me hand and foot, and it's like,
don't get me wrong, I wait on him on hand
on foot too, but it's thank you, thank you for
taking care of me. And he's given me the room
to grow and be a person and, honestly, truthfully, to
give me back a childhood too. He lets me be

(46:40):
the kid that I am. When it rains, we cuddle
up and we watched Disney movies till my little heart
can content, and that is my favorite thing to do.
It's okay to enjoy childish right. Want to be childish
for a second. Yeah, it's Nice to forget that I'm
an adult for twenty one. Well, and then, too, what

(47:02):
you tapped into. I think there's so much power in that,
that you were able to find in a mate what
your father didn't model as a parent, as a father,
that you didn't see and know what it was like
to be nurtured, to be protected, to be provided for,
but you were able to find it in a mate.
So that's such a gift. Caroline, you mentioned that you

(47:23):
have two other children and you are not able to
see them right now, and, Caitlin, those are your siblings
that you can't see either. So do you all text
or even follow each other on social media? Yeah, so
I don't follow them. I'm blocked. Oh, not blocked. Yeah,
I'm blocked. I thought that's what you're gonna say. Dang it. Yeah,

(47:43):
it breaks my heart because, going back a little bit,
back to the show, teddy talks about how his son
was wearing glasses and he never knew. Honestly, truthfully, I
feel that because I see pictures of my siblings, because
I'm friends with people who will send me stuff, and
I see them and I'm like, I walk right past
you and not even now. I have no idea and
it breaks my heart. Caitlyn, could you tell us about

(48:06):
the last time you talked or interacted? Yeah, the last
time I saw them. I saw them last October last year.
I needed my high school diploma for my job and
I asked my mom. I was like, Hey, I really
don't have it in me to text my dad. Can
you ask him for me? I hate to put you
in this, but can you ask for me? And she's

(48:28):
like okay, and so she sent him an email and
I was like thank you, and then the day later
I get a text message from my dad. How he
got my phone number, I still don't know to this day,
and basically saying hey, if you need your stuff, you
can come get it from the house, and I said, well,
I really don't want to come get it from the house,
I'd much rather meet you in public, and he really

(48:49):
was like, I don't have time to meet you in public.
So I got suckered into go into the house. How
was that? Because you didn't want to go back to
the house because because my stepmom was there and I
didn't want to see her because I felt like there
was something my dad needed to say just to me,
and I just I needed that and I think I
needed more closure with my dad. I know my siblings.

(49:12):
They'll be eighteens, not far along. Hopefully they kind of
get the same wake up called that I did. I
just wanted to closure with my dad and so I
went to the house. They opened the door and let
me in and I get stopped in the hallway right
before the kitchen and that's as far as I can
go and my brother and my sister come up and

(49:32):
they say hello and I was like, well, can I
have a hug? Like now I'm like, okay, cool, but
how old are they now? Are they teens? Yeah, so
there's one's going to be seventeen. Yeah, fifteen and seventeen.
So they're old enough. They're there. And so I was like, okay,
this is how this is gonna go. You're not gonna

(49:53):
invite me in completely to sit and stand here in
the doorway of a kitchen and we're just gonna play
back Caitlin for the next twenty minutes. And I got
told how they mourned me like I was dead. All
the pictures that they have taken with me were gone.
I was told that not only did I hurt my dad,
but I hurt my step mom and how her feelings

(50:15):
got hurt and all this. And I got told that
if I ever want a relationship with them that I
needed to earn their trust first. That's the manipulation for me.
I'm just gonna stop. Yeah, I just yeah, it was.
It's the other party who came in. As we're older,
we date and we have our own love lives. Number one,
you think to yourself, love did all this, Caroline, I

(50:36):
know this is your ex and it's like love did
all this, and then for someone to come in that's
an outsider and add to the manipulation. I know that
has to be like baffling. Yeah, so I kind of
was like, I don't know, I want my siblings back
in my life. So I came home, I sat there

(50:59):
and I just I involved for probably about a good
hour straight. I looked at my mom and said, how
the Hell did you marry this man? Yes, my dad's
a bad guy, but he had good qualities and he
was a good person at some point. But at that
point I was just like how the hell did you
marry this person and you had kids with him? I

(51:19):
was like, Dear Lord, okay, that talks a lot about
the growth in your relationship too, that you were able
to go back to caroline. Like what the Hell? How
the hell to your Mama say that? Just being fully transparent, Carolin,
like is that? Is that why you were drinking? We
all have our issues and we all accept our roles,
but seriously, is that why the drinking? Like I'm drinking

(51:41):
because of you? Like like well, I was sober for
eight years of the marriage. Yeah, he had good qualities,
he does and just like dizzy said, he was a
lousy husband. Well, my ex husband was pretty lousy to
me I hope he's a much better husband to his
current wife. Somehow I don't think that's the case, but
in my opinion she is just as manipulative as he is.

(52:04):
There were times when she would go to the family
therapist and talk to them about how she was a
much better mom to my children than their own biological mother.
So that's manipulation. When the girls were younger and we
were supposed to do some family therapy, she actually held
both of their hands and walked them into the therapist,
sat them down and said you tell the therapist you're

(52:24):
not doing therapy with your mom. See, that is so
much ego. That's way too much ego. It's a lot
of EGO. It is it's way too much ego, because
who are you? I don't know who you like. We're
the ad she needs to go talk to Dr Romany.
That's the narcissistem on on steroids. Crazy right today, all

(52:46):
navigating narcissism. We Love Your Dr Romney. And for your siblings.
They stopped you and said we have mourned you, Caitlin,
like you were dead. Yeah, did it take you back
to a place of not having your mom? Because now,
like I have to choose, like now what? Yeah, and

(53:07):
it truthfully, it did. And I thought, okay, maybe I'll
play his game a little bit. Maybe if I can
get in there further enough, I can let them know, hey,
this is not what you think it is. Try to
save them, pull them out kind of with me. And
I was like okay, maybe I can do it. But
I thought he's not going to let me have a

(53:27):
relationship with my mom too. I'm not going to be
able to have both. I can't. In his eyes, I
can only love one or the other, and that hurts
because my dad's my dad. I Love My dad, even
though he's put me through hell. I love my dad.
That part. I appreciate you for saying that. It's just
that's just the in my mind, that's the utmost respect,

(53:52):
just acknowledging he's still a piece of you, and he is.
I don't like what you're doing and I'm an adult now.
I have the right to choose who becomes my family
and who stays into my side. My family right now.
I don't want that, I don't need that, and so

(54:12):
it was hard and I was like, okay, bye, I'm
not going to do this again. So you didn't get
the closer. You're looking forward with your dad. No, and
probably about a couple of months after that, my dad
texted me. So we're not talking again. You're mad at me,
when I sent him a text message back saying I'm
not mad at you, not mad, I just have nothing
left to say. I have nothing left to say. What

(54:35):
response would do you think he would have wanted you
to actually say? I think he probably wanted me to
say I'm so sorry, I love you. Let's be best
friends again, let me move back in, let me rearrange
my whole life again for you. Maybe that's what he
wanted to hear. Let me show you I need you. Yeah,
there's so much full spectrum emotion that goes on in this.

(54:57):
I've felt it like. I've been like super upset. I've
been one angry the evil stepmother is going to forever
get side I from me. She gets put up on
the side wall. I am happy that you guys reunited.
I'm super sad that you have not reconnected with your children, Carolyn,
and with your siblings, Caitlin. How are you managing this?

(55:20):
How is this working for you, for both of you,
that you celebrated being reunited while you're also mourning the
loss of these relationships that you have that are still broken.
What do you do? How do you manage that as
a parent? You just keep holding onto hope that someday
they'll come around. Keep doing what I'm doing, standing in
my own truth, knowing that I'm not this evil monster.

(55:41):
I did not abandon my children and I will keep
trying to educate others on parental alienation so that my
kids can see that I never gave up on them.
I just didn't fight it the traditional way in courts,
because I don't trust the court system. Of Court systems
broken right now and it keeps proving to us that
it's broken. As far as celebrate wheting us, she's still
my mini me. We are still very close. I still

(56:04):
see her dad in her quite a bit and it
can be triggering and we can trigger each other, but
we're learning how to cope and we're learning how to
keep putting one foot in front of the other. And Yeah,
I pray. I pray every day and I hold on
to that hope and that faith that Ryan and Brianna
will be reunited with us, hopefully one day, very, very soon.
In case they hear this, what Caroline, would you like

(56:26):
to say to your two other children? I'll say this
to every single alienated child out there. Don't be afraid
to call your parents, don't be afraid to reach out,
don't be afraid of the consequences that the other parents
maybe have instilled fearing you. Just reach out, I promise you.
I promise you they have not abandoned you and they
want to talk to you. I promise you. They want

(56:49):
to talk to you. And then, Caitlin, what would you
say to your siblings or any other alienated child? Well,
to my siblings, I love you. I love you so
much and I'm here and I'm standing and I will
be here when you need me with open arms. And

(57:09):
to everyone out there that's going through what I went through,
there is hope and for Real, pick up the phone,
send that text message if you need an out. I
don't care where you are, even if you're another state,
I will come help you get out of that because
I know where you've been through and it gets better
and it will get better and it's hard right now, yes,

(57:33):
but it's gonna be okay because at the end of
a rainstorm comes a rainbow, and your rainbow is coming
really soon. That's beautiful. That's beautiful, Carl. I don't think
there's anything else we could possibly ask for. I don't
think so, except maybe we'll invite you all back later on,
because I enjoyed talking. Please invite us back. We'd love

(57:54):
to come back and looking for an update when you
come back and be able to have even more people
on with us, because your siblings and your children will
be reunited with you as well. That's what we hope.
So thank you so much for joining us at this
virtual red table. Thank you, ladies, thank you so much. Yes,
thank you for letting US tell our story for all.

(58:18):
We want to know what you are feeling about this
new season a red table talk. We are open to
talk about anything with you all, so please send in
your questions at let's Red Table, that at Red Table
Talk Dot Com. Yes, because those emails are read and
responded to every week. Thank you so much for listening.

(58:41):
Make sure you subscribe on I heart radio APP and
please rate this podcast on apple podcast. Rate US up five.
We'll be back next week for another episode of Let's
Red Table. That I bet. Thank you to our executive producers,
Jada Pinkett Smith Ellen Racketon and Alan Jethrow, and thank

(59:01):
you to our producer Kyla Kanu and our associate producer
Yolanda Chow. And finally, thank you to our sound engineers,
Calvin bailiff and Devin Donahee. Yeah, let's Red table that.
Let's Red Table that