You Are Not Alone: Postpartum Pain (Hayden Panettiere recap)

Postpartum struggles are too often kept secret, and mothers are left to suffer in silence. Hayden Panettiere revealed the truth behind her motherhood journey at the red table, and so is the RTT community. Jade Kearney, CEO and co-founder of She Matters, a digital health platform for Black mothers, joins the virtual red table to share her struggles with postpartum OCD. She shares for the first time some of the frightening intrusive thoughts that plagued her until she finally got the help she needed.

Learn more about She Matters: www.shematters.health 

Hosts Information:

Cara Pressley

@thecareercheerleader Cara’s Instagram

@TheCareerCheerleader Cara’s Facebook

@the1cheering4U Cara’s Twitter

@FeelinSuccessful Cara’s TikTok

Cara’s Website

Tracy T. Rowe

@tracytrowe Tracy’s Instagram

@troweandco Tracy’s Facebook

@tracytrowe Tracy’s Twitter

@tracytrowe Tracy’s TikTok

Tracy’s Website

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hey, y'all, Hey, what's up? And welcome the Let's Red
Table that I'm Tracy t Row and I'm called Pressley.
How are you feeling the day, Tracy? Every day amazing
and oh my goodness for this episode, that's what I'm feeling, like,
how are you feeling? I'm feeling pretty successful. As you
can see, my voice is kind of gone, but that's

(00:20):
all right. We are. You can be successful in a
little raspy at the same time, it's all right with me.
And you know what, you can be a fantastic mother
and have postpartum depression at the same time. To hello
this episode, listen. This episode was heavy, heavy, but necessary.
Today's episode, we're gonna talk about postpartum co morbidity, meaning

(00:43):
that after giving birth, mothers can suffer from different types
of mental illness at the same time. So more than
one co morbidity means more than one. So having postpartum
depression and anxiety simultaneously would be an example of having
a co morbidity. So I just want to say that
because we use the word, we try to educate ourselves

(01:04):
here at Let's Red Table that and we want to
help the listeners also be educated. Right now. Yeah, absolutely,
we want to help people change the language as well
as their perspective, or just be reintroduced to a perspective
you hadn't truly considered. One of the things like listening
to Hayden. In this episode, she shared that having gone

(01:25):
through so many emotions in that way led her to
just do something easy, right, kind of relying on that
substance of alcohol when she got home because she just
didn't have the energy to do anything else. And I
think there's so many people who relate to that, especially women.
We get home and we have a glass of wine
and we just say we're relaxing. But I need some

(01:47):
people to know that that one glass can turn into
some other things for some other people. Well, if you're
already suffering with some other comorbidities, come on, let's use this.
You have some co morbidities. You know that self diagnosing,
self medicating oftentimes go hand in hand. I thought Hayden
was brave. I just want you to know that Carl

(02:09):
Bravery is so underrated because people don't understand you're not
just gonna show up at somebody's house first of all,
sit at their table and then be recorded sharing your
most intimate, like most, painful, vulnerable, I don't know what
other word to you, lowest of the low, lowest point.

(02:30):
She even said that she was like in the fetal
position when she finally even herself acknowledged it. Not everyone
wants to relive that. We've all had our lowest point,
but not many people come back to relive it again.
So again, thank you for sharing, Gammy, thank you for
being so willing to talk about this. And then can

(02:50):
we talk about Kelly Osborne and her baby love, her
best wishes to you. I was so excited to see
her Willow. We know you're on tour rock it out
well right, but we love to see the guests come
to the table again. It just shows how universal the
show is. This transcends across just the Smith family, so
I love that that we can continue to share. Now

(03:12):
it's time to share what our online Red Tabletop community
has to say about this episode. I really, Brooks says,
I feel so sad for her. That little girl needs
her mom in her life. I appreciate that Jada and
gam gave her a safe, open and compassionate space to
tell her story. Yes, I agree, mm hmm. That's so important.

(03:34):
Tracy Turner great first name there. Tracy said, what if
instead of assuming the worst, we gave each other the
grace and assume we're all doing our best every day.
That's important. It's important. Another comment says, so glad that
she spoke out about this. So many people go through this,

(03:56):
and it's so good to know that you are not alone.
So thank you for your avery. Hayden. Thank you so much,
Dana Norman for that comment. Yes, and rosallyn Nixon said,
I got some therapy just watching this episode. Wow, Okay.
Prayers for Hayden's complete healing and a heart emoji, Roslynn,

(04:17):
thank you for that. That's absolutely one of the reasons
why we do what we do because we know it's
healing every day. We are healing every day and last
but not least, Kristin Bellow says, I love the feeling.
Will It's hanging in my office out work in mental health, right,
we all need a feeling. Will It really changes how
you communicate and understand your emotions. Yes, everybody get a feeling?

(04:40):
Will or say some affirmations? Yes? Speak, come on now
you speak in my language? Car, Yes? Do you know
why I'm so grateful? Cal we have already received communications
from listeners in our let's community. They are emailing us
at our email address. What is our email address? Car

(05:04):
Let's Red Table that at red table talk dot com. Yes,
and Shannon Cox and Katie Yates, we are so grateful
to you and want to acknowledge that we have received
your email messages in response to our parental alienation episode.
We are grateful to you for taking time to communicate
with us, and we are sending you lots of light
and love and hope that you will be reunited with

(05:27):
your own children soon. Yes, thank you so much. We
have to heal together, so sharing your stories and allowing
us to communicate with you just helps us all to
share and learn and heal together. We're going to take
a quick break, but when we get back, we'll be
joined by one incredible guest. Today we're bringing a fellow

(05:49):
URTC community member to our virtual red table. We're excited
about having Jade here, so let me just get right
into this. Ja Kearney is joining Let's Red Table that
from New York City, where she runs she Matters, a
digital health platform designed to support black mothers who experienced
postpartum co morbidity such as postpartum depression. Jade co founded

(06:14):
She Matters after enduring months of postpartum o c D,
also known as obsessive compulsive disorder, after the birth of
her first daughter. Jade is here to shed some light
on postpartum experiences many mothers navigate, often without the proper
resources or knowledge, and hopefully we can help bring some
education and eliminate some stigmas today. Yes, indeed, Jade, thank

(06:40):
you for coming to the Virtual Red Table. We are
so happy you're here. We need to get rid of
some of these stigmas. A sad right, No, I totally agree.
Thank you so much for having me and for caring
about what's going on out here for everyone, and especially
for black mothers, because what we experience in the postpartum
world is different from what others experienced. So I'm appreciative

(07:02):
of being here. Well, let's get into it. This is
the part of the show where we reveal which moments
made us pause, rewind, and listen again. I mean made
us all just say, wait, what happened right there? Wait,

(07:23):
let's kick it off. When Hayden revealed that she was
acting out her real life traumas on the TV show
Nashville when I was on Nashville, they really wrote my
life into it. So on the show, one of the
storylines was that I was playing an alcoholic. Another storyline
was that I was pregnant on the show, and then
I got postpartum depression, and then you know, they had

(07:45):
to relive everything I had to. Yeah, I had to
go to work every day and be acting out what
I was truly going through. Can you imagine reenacting that
just the trauma is not even like a good part
of your life, right, but the traumas of your life
on TV as entertainment for thousands of people. Can you
guys imagine that. I can't imagine it would be different

(08:06):
if she was reenacting winning the lottery over and over again.
I couldn't imagine that because I don't want to live
the nightmare of postpartum o c D again in the
same way that I did the first time. So that
has to be terrible, terrible to endure. Yeah, and something
as so enduring his birth in the labor and then

(08:27):
like literally the entire things she was going through, and
then already from mothers right, like when you're going through
postpartum or just just being a mom in general. Every
day is kind of like ground all day. So Jade,
I'm sure if you had O c D, every time
somebody moved something or whatever your thing was that you
were doing, you probably saw it over and over and
it probably bothered you just as much over and over.

(08:50):
So at least you didn't have to relive it at work.
It definitely did like that groundholl day, that phrase like that,
That's what it was like. Every single day. I was
being tormented by my own thoughts. And that's crazy because
we're our worst enemy, in our biggest healer, right, So
to know that the answer is within yourself, but you

(09:13):
can't pull it out because you're experiencing this groundhog thing,
it really shows you the diversity of your mind, right,
Like you can really give yourself medicine, or you can
give yourself poison. And in that O c D space,
I was giving myself poison. Every day. I was worried
when I went to sleep about what the next day
was going to be like. So I can imagine having

(09:36):
to go to work and thinking about there's no escape
for me, there's no escape in my personal or professional life.
That's really really difficult because I had a bit of
an escape At the time, I was a teacher, so
I could go and kind of get out of this space.
But as soon as I was done, I was worried
about that same thing too. I know that like my

(09:57):
steps were like divinely favored, but at the time I
was in hell. So I just have empathy for her
and going somewhere and not want to be there, and
going home and not want to be there either. But
it's literally sometimes it's moment to moment, day to day,
just trying to get through you the next living hall
to some degree living haill j you for you saying

(10:18):
living hill and made me think back to the one
of the other way. What moments in the episode that
was a living hell for Hayden her sharing that she
didn't know that her ex was planning to keep her
daughter in Ukraine. Hermit, Lee, how old was your daughter
when you made that decision for her to go and
live with her her dad? Her dad? She was almost

(10:39):
three and it wasn't fully my decision. In fact, I
didn't even know what was happening until she was already
over there. She was thinking that this was just temporary
for her to get herself together, get in a at

(11:00):
her place, emotionally and physically and be you know, away
from the substance abuse and her husband or her ex
husband pulled the okey doke. Yeah, that was the wait
what for me? For real? I don't know about y'all,
but when this drama showed up in the tabloids a
while back, I didn't know what to make of it.
So I'm glad that Hayden was able to clear some things.

(11:20):
So y'all remember this when this happened, because we're talking
not like about the show. Okay, Jay, tell me from
your experience, what were you thinking when this happened? To me?
That just shows you how the laws are set up
in the States, Like he wouldn't have been ever do
that here. So I feel like it was premeditated. And
the thing about co parenting life is if you don't
have a good relationship, you have a terrible one. I
feel like sometimes there's no there's no middle lane, and

(11:43):
so I just have empathy for her in terms of,
like you're sharing all of your fears, the rawness, the
realness of what postpartum is like, and what you're experiencing
with somebody, and then they take your baby. See. I
think that's Okay, being a mother is so important. When
you become a mother, it's like you're always trying to

(12:03):
figure out how to make sure this human it's going
to be a better human than you are, right, Like,
how can I give your life something that I didn't have?
Or improve your life just a little bit? And so
I could see even in her progressing and getting healthy
and finding her wellness equation whatever that was for her
rehab whatever, Right to have somebody take out the thing

(12:25):
that's really encouraging you to get better? Right, what that
must have felt like stripped? My mom had her own
issues with substance abuse, and I know that like really
getting to the point where I'm doing this for my
kids and then somebody taking your kids like you're not
a good mom? Right? What effect does that have on
a person? Right? Right? You know? And like you said,
like you're already trying to be a great mom, and

(12:47):
then you don't have any control on top of it
when that person plays that chest move on top of
everything you're already dealing with mentally, it's it's difficult. This
kind of transitions directly into our last what moment? And
I love that you said earlier your wellness equation, right,
because what does that look like? Sometimes we don't even
know we need help, right, And you would hope that

(13:07):
you can go to your doctor. So learning that none
of Hayden's doctors brought up the possibility of what she
was experiencing was possibly postpartum depression seems like such a
huge disconnect. Did your physician talk to you about what
postpartum depression was? Not at all? Not at all? And
I wish like they had given me whatever, any even

(13:31):
just one, or told me what the signs were. I
know that, Jade, you specifically help black women, but we're
talking about a white woman. You know, we're talking about
someone who also should have some additional something at her hand, right,
But it just shows how disparaged women in general are.
Did you experience that as well, Jade? So I don't

(13:51):
I don't say this a lot of times that maybe
in print somewhere. I went to the emergency room twenty
one times and my daughter's first year of life, and
they kept saying assuming something was wrong with her, because
I know something was wrong with me. I knew something.
I was going to the emergency room and I'm like,

(14:12):
I know something the hell is wrong with me, y'all know,
can't send me back home? And no answers again because
something was wrong. And I remember one nurse actually said
to me, do you think you're having postpartment anxiety? That
if I am, I would know it. Nobody's helping me,
nobody's doing anything. And it was to the point where
I was watching my toes twitch. I've never said this anywhere,

(14:35):
I promise you. I kept saying, my toes are twitching
because in my mind I was becoming sick, like my
toes were twitching, because I thought, oh my God, like
I'm having some type of nervous system problem. I really
had a depletion and electrolytes, but in my mind I
was dying right, and nobody nobody said anything. I think

(14:59):
they were like your mine, it's it's been a few hours.
Here's some volume, so let's talk about that. Here's some volume.
I'm breastfeeding. Don't breastfeed your baby for two days. Here's
some volume. You will be okay. Nobody said, here's a
referral to a therapist. Here's a referral to a psychologist
or a psychiatrist. Jane, I need to ask you twenty

(15:19):
one times in the first year of your daughter's life.
And you mentioned that there was one nurse who said,
do you think it's possible that you could have postpartum anxiety?
Where in the visit cycle did that statement occur? This
was probably like visit like seventeen to a different emergency room.
I'll never forget it because I'm like, my toes are twitching.

(15:41):
And she looked at me like girl, what And I
was like, no, something's going on. And I was crying
and I was like, I don't know because I don't
know what that looks like. I don't know any of this.
I'm just trying to get back to this baby, and
I'm thinking I'm a die. That's all of us thinking,
just thinking of the that she mentioned it and you said,
I don't know. That would have been a perfect opportunity

(16:04):
for that same person that was a healthcare professional to
have said, Okay, let's put this in your triage right
so that we can explore this more. And that would
have been much more helpful for you than them trying
to tell you that there was nothing wrong with you frustrating.
That would have been so much more helpful. That's why
we she matters like we really pressed being culturally competent.

(16:25):
I'm calling on everybody in the moment, like she couldn't
see my struggle because she couldn't see me. She wasn't black,
she wasn't understanding what I was going through. She just
saw me as a woman struggling, which was helpful, but
there was no follow up. How do you help the
strong ones? You know, black woman, there's a stigma and
you hate to say there's a negative stigma. That sounds positive, right,

(16:47):
She's so strong. I'm so tired of that. I agree
with you wholeheartedly because in our society now, from my perspective,
being a strong black woman is a mantel piece. We
were just told we have to be strong because we're
black women. Conversely, our counterparts, they are not taught that.

(17:11):
They literally are raised in many cases, I won't use
all this language to be submissive, to be passive, to
be the damsel in distress. And it's okay. That's why
we have so many people now that are the quote
unquote careens. Don't get me on a whole another episode,
that can do crazy off the wall stuff and then
cry because they're taken care of and there's a sense

(17:33):
of protection even when they can and do cry experience
there they're covered. Meanwhile, here Jade is at the hospital
literally going through prices and isn't being helped. But that's
because people are comfortable with black women suffering. People are

(17:57):
comfortable with our pain, people are comfortable with our devaluation.
People are comfortable with it all. So why helped me?
You look like what I think a black woman should
be experiencing, right, and that that's what I experienced. Why
should you feel at ease? Isn't this what you guys
go through? And I didn't realize that. I never said

(18:17):
that until after I had my daughter. This is what
it's like for me. I don't want it to be
like that for her. But when I was suffering with
my black child as a black woman, no one's alarms
went off. But in the worst part about it is
our alarms don't even go off because we're comfortable with
our own suffering. That's the worst piece. Or we just

(18:39):
don't know if we deserve healing, you know, conditioned. Yeah,
thank you for platforms like this and really bring me awareness.
And I think it's so powerful. Like even with red
table talk, it has to start with a small conversation
that grows into a bigger one you realize. And a
lot of the episodes Willow, Jada and gam and generally

(19:03):
the guest hosts whoever they have one, they're all going
through the same thing. And it's until it's discussed, we
don't even know postpartum is normal and should be normalized
as a series of things that the woman needs help with.
And I think previously when I thought about postpartum until
I had my own son and went through my own drama,

(19:23):
I only thought about it as or I only saw
it in in life as the woman being like jealous
of the baby or not having attention. Does that make sense.
That's the only time it was kind of referenced, and
it's all she wants some attention now everybody coming to
see the baby. And the reality is that is that
is the thing that that definitely adds to it as

(19:46):
far as the concern being only with the baby's health,
only with what the baby needs next, and the mother
as well being overwhelmed. We're not educated about stuff like this,
so it makes sense. And I thought postpartum depression just
meant you've had the being you're tired and you don't
want to have anything to do with anybody that part, Okay, Yeah,
just like nothing. Yeah, I'm glad that we are defining

(20:09):
this together and acknowledging what we all thought it was
until we realize what it truly is. So I feel
like there are other women going through this same thing. Yeah, absolutely,
And always say in every struggle, there's a healing story
for somebody else, So we have to have the conversation
so that other people say, Hey, I don't have to
be shamed for this. Somebody else experienced this. Okay, this

(20:32):
is similar to what I'm going through. Maybe I should
reach out to my health care provider because this is
not normal. Suffering is not normal. Suffering is not normal,
not at all. Oh, that is the perfect statement, Jade.

(20:55):
You are regularly hearing stories from women about the challenges
they faced through their journey to motherhood or in motherhood.
Was Hayden's story similar to what you've come across in
your work. There's so much you can pull from her
story that a lot of people have experienced. So yeah,
especially about the parents or alienation and reaching for substance

(21:16):
to heal what you're going through, and especially the late diagnosis.
I've heard all of those things, So yes, if you've
never experienced it before, you don't know what you're experiencing
when you're experiencing it. That's what we've learned from your
women in our community. My Honor is fifty five years
old and set in on one of our events. She
started crying and she said, I always thought it was

(21:36):
like the devil trying to talk to me talking about
o c D and those thoughts around o c D.
She has five kids, and no one ever spoke to
her about that. Was that the first time she had
ever verbalized that. Yes, yes, I never knew what to
call it. And so many women will say, what if
I harm my baby? This is part of o c D.
It's terrible thoughts. Some people see themselves harming their baby,

(21:59):
and it's like the shame you go through. So imagine
you have to get up and go to work as
a single mother every day you're having these thoughts about
one of your kids. But you gotta get up and
you gotta go to work. So where's the healing. There's
no healing in that. There is no healing. Like the
only thing I can even akin this to right is
I remember when I got my period, right, Like when
I was twelve or whatever age it was. I had

(22:20):
this one thought of like, every woman in the world
goes through this, and that's something more physical, right, Like
you have your psycho and then you have the tools
you need for you. Everyone has to do this thing
once a month or whatever. But that's the only time
I kind of stopped and just was like, Wow, this
happens to every woman and you kind of look around.

(22:40):
She could be going through this at any time, like
no one, but no one talks about it. Does that
make sense? No, it makes you know what's happening. We
see the commercials, the commercials, but you don't see yourself definitely,
and everyone's it is different monthly, Like it's the same
kind of scenario where we're still not talking about it.
But until someone said is it out loud? That's when

(23:01):
you start to see the different products and things on
this show. Do you understand what I'm saying? So, just
as much as the hope, services like yours, Jade are
normalized more and stories are told more because we just
don't know what we don't know. We don't know what
we don't know. That's the best way to look at it.
And there were things that I saw as I was
going through my own postpartum experience. I didn't see us.

(23:23):
So they're white. Women would share their stories amongst each
other on the internet, like in chat rooms or whatever,
and I would not share because I don't know, y'all,
you know how we do hold up. I'm about to
see here and give my personal thoughts that somebody could
come in d CEUs or whoever they are and take
my baby. I'm gonna read that's how I found out
it was O c D. But I never shared my

(23:47):
story because I didn't see anybody that looked like me.
And that's what made me say, oh, I have to
do something about this. What's interesting to me about that, too,
is that that's still true. That's so prevalent for marketing
and advertising now right, and we can even talk about
some of the things that we see. The little girls
of color now have the opportunity to look at even
with the Little Mermaidaid, they representation matters so much that

(24:11):
they can look at themselves and see, she looks like me,
and it is absolutely necessary. I cannot wait to learn
more about she matters and how you've been able to
help support black mothers through your organization. But I think

(24:34):
to really understand that work, we need to understand what
your experience was like becoming a mom. So Jay, tell
us about the months after you had your daughter and
what postpartum O c D looked like for you. It's
interesting because I had my daughter and I was so planned,

(24:55):
like I knew all the statistics around black maternal morbidity.
And I changed doctors at these seven weeks because I
didn't like the first doctor that I was working with.
She made me feel like a statistic and she was
black and said, just because you're black, that don't mean
new coach competent. I said, that's not gonna work. So
I went to Dr Garfinkle and I said, hey, I

(25:16):
don't want to die when I have my kid. And
I know that the chances of me having proclumps here
are high, but I don't want to be treated like that.
And he said, I got you, and he really did.
He really did have me such a great doctor. So
I only worried about the during delivery. I was so
scared I was gonna die because we hear all of
these things and like the anxiety and depression for black

(25:36):
women happens the moment you learned that you're going to
have a baby because you're like, oh my god, I
don't want to die on the table. I heard all
these statistics, but when nobody talks about is the postpartum period.
I had no idea what was going to happen postpartum.
I made it through the delivery and I thought, who
this is over? No, My postpartum started three months into
being a mom. And I think what really shook me was,

(25:58):
as I mentioned earlier, my mom her own journey with
substance abuse, and so there were parts of me before
mommy hood that felt like an abandoned child. So I
had these thoughts of like what if I abandoned my child?
What if I leave her? What if I forget about her?
And that manifested into its own O C D. Right.
It was like I knew something was wrong when I

(26:19):
wouldn't walk past the kitchen. I was scared to walk
past the kitchen because I thought I would stab my daughter.
And I had to walk past my kitchen to get
in my house. So leaving the house or coming home,
I was like, oh my god, what if I see
a knife? What if I stab her? And I never
wanted to. That's the thing. It was like something tormenting me.

(26:40):
And now I realized I have a great therapist. And
now I realized that that was my brain playing with
me because she was the thing I wanted to protect
the most. So what if you couldn't protect her. I
didn't even give her her first bath. I was so
afraid that what if I let her go and she drowns?
Like there was this like I can't protect her happening

(27:00):
with me, and I didn't have the words I needed
to communicate what I was experiencing. My first call was
to my mom. And I'm the oldest of eight and
my mom is a MoMA during a different it is
a different type of mama. And so I said, Mom,
I'm going through something. I think it's postpartum depression. Like
I said, I didn't have the language. And she said, look,

(27:21):
when your brother was born, he was number four. I
think I had something like that. I couldn't even look
at him. I didn't even really look at him till
he was six months. But I had to do what
I have to do. I had to do, and you
have to do what you have to do. You need
to go back to work because you need your health assurance.
And at that moment, I was like, I'm a failure.
I'm failing cultural norms of suffering in silence. I should
shut up about this. I shouldn't be complaining. And then

(27:43):
I reached out to the doctor's office and I think
my doctor said something like, plenty of women go through this.
I'm just gonna send you zolof. You can pick it up.
I'll check in with you in six weeks. And I'm like,
hold on, I'm black. We don't we don't uh antidepressants.
I need to be talked into that you can't just
give it to me. And I remember I got it
in my aunt threw it away controlling your mind. Yo,

(28:10):
you'll be just went through it, and it was like
you were going to suffer. This is your life. Here.
I am trying to figure out do I go to
a psychiatrist, do I go to a therapist? What do
I do? And I just had to try so much
to get a little bit of relief from someone who
said you're not a terrible person. It was like I
needed to know that I wasn't a monster. And you

(28:33):
had no internal resources. Yeah, your mom and your aunt
were from a generation where they suffered in silence. We
go back to the shame, and so you didn't have
that support as your internal familial support, and then externally
they were just popping pills at you, and so you
just said, what do I do with this? And then

(28:54):
you got them and still couldn't take them because you
had intervention with that. Wow, unpacked a lot. I don't
know whatever everybody's from, but I was born in eighty
four and so like my mom was from the era
of the crack era, and it was like, well, I
don't want anythink control in my mind. I don't want
to think controlling me. I don't want it to be

(29:15):
like I'm on drugs and that's not what antidepressants are.
In the black culture, we stigmatize any medicine for mental health.
Do you know the person that made that s s
R I, which is an antidepressant major blood pressure medication.
So why are you shaming me? Yeah? If you want
to share, what were the specific intrusive thoughts you had

(29:37):
and how did they manifest day today? It usually would
start around sleep time, like when I was going to bed,
I would have the thought of and I think a
lot of moms have this, what did she stop breathing
at night? So I wasn't sleeping. Not sleeping doesn't help anxiety.
I would have thoughts like what if I let go
of the stroller when I'm walking her down the street.

(29:57):
I know my exp and saying he must have thought
I was insane because I was like, I can't be
too close to the sidewalk, I can't stand next to
the window. I thought, what if I throw her out
the window. I don't even know if I've ever shared
this publicly. One thought that I had what if I
smothered my baby with the pillow? And it was really
because I was afraid of the pillows smothering her. I

(30:19):
never wanted to do that, but that was the thought,
what if you do that? So they were just so
much shame around. You have this blessing and your thoughts.
You're a monster. You should be a shame. And every
day when I'm telling you, I would cry at work.
I would cry in the bathroom like why am I
going through this? What did I do? It really felt
like a punishment, like into any any woman experience in this.

(30:43):
I please know that you are not a monster. Please
know that it happen with hormones. Has to do with hormones,
It has to do with a lot of things going
on in easide your body, and a lot of women
have these thoughts. One teacher told me she had this thought.
Her daughter was screaming, and she said, what if I
just threw her across the And I remember looking at her, like,
how are you just telling me that? But she had

(31:03):
already made peace with when she experienced she was out
of the postpartum period, and she said, I had that
thought over and over again. But I had to just
get over it. And that's that whole thing I'm suffering.
I'm not gonna say anything. I had to just get
over it. Yeah, you don't need to get over it.
You need to work through it, and sometimes in a

(31:24):
in an assisted way. Yeah, I had my own anxiety
prior to being a mom. So if you have anxiety
or depression prior to being pregnant, you have a higher
chance of having postpartum anxiety and depression. So there were
things that hadn't worked out before that all manifested. Because
birth is beautiful as it is, it's also traumatic. And
even what you're saying, birth as beautiful as it is,

(31:45):
is it because mine was not? Like that's only because
I'm a whole, hopeless romantic, and I thought me and
my son's father would be together forever and this would
be this love story, and it was not. I had
a whole. I had to fall in love with my son.
And I probably have not said this publicly. There's people
who know. But I had to fall in love with
my son and went through postpartum and didn't have time

(32:08):
to acknowledge that's what I was going through because I
had to raise this sun and not be a statistic.
Now you look up and it might be social media,
and I just still pray for these moms. But you
see all the gender reveals and the pregnancy photo, maternity photos.
I didn't do all that. I didn't have time to
do all that. I was in the middle of shame.

(32:29):
And I can't believe she didn't got pregnant at twenty
and so I had my own piece of it too.
When you say you had to fall in love with
your son, what do you mean fall in love with him?
And you know, some people are just madly in love
with their child while they are pregnant, and I just
I was not. I was in a relationship that was
just not going the way I wanted it to. And

(32:51):
again I was cloaked in shame of we can't believe
our daughters pregnant young. I just had to work. It
was more of a task, and then chilly of I
gotta raise my son now. Instead of enjoying what motherhood
was for me and doing it with help, when you
do it alone, that's also a part of it. It
wasn't the traditional for me, But once I got into it,

(33:14):
then you start to love the process and you enjoy
what's happening. But it was not out like that initially
out the gate. So many of our moms come to
us single parenthood. I am a single mother right now.
We have a good coparentto relationship, but my kids live
with me. But so many of our mothers in our
community go through postpartum alone. I didn't have to write

(33:36):
my kid's father was there, but I know so many
that experience it alone. And that's a whole part of
our community. Whenever we have any events around single motherhood
and postpartum, we sell out because that's a different type
of loneliness. Right You're seeing the baby that looks like
somebody that you love, and y'all are not together, and
that's that's difficult. So I just wanted to say kudos

(33:58):
to you for sharing that, because there's somebody right now
who's who's in that space. My intrusive thoughts weren't like
yours as far as I'm gonna hurt the baby specifically.
It was more so anxiety of dying for you dying
or the baby dying. Car. Yeah, I was afraid I
was gonna die and just leave my son with no
one help, no one take care of him. What did
I call that? I know there's a word. I called

(34:20):
it the Fred Sanford syn John. I'm like the Fred said,
you know, coming to join you. Like, I just assumed
something tragic, whether it was a heart attack or car accident,
it's gonna happen. That he wouldn't have anyone because his
father's incarcerated. So that was the other part. It's one
thing if you have a child's father that's here and
can get to him and or help whether y'all get
along or not. But when they're just not available at

(34:40):
all and it's kind of all on your shoulders, it's
a different type of pressure. It is a lot of pressures.
I hope someone's listening is getting freed by all of
these conversations right now, because you are not alone. Truly,
you're not alone. Before you knew what postpartum o c
D was, Jade, how did you try to heal yourself
the way I tried to heal myself. I did everything
I did are evading solutions, girl, I was at I

(35:02):
was in the r evaded practitioner's office, like I'm dying
and I did yoga. I did, I was ing. I did.
Let me tell you, I tried everything anything that was
on the market postpartum T. I tried Mommy and Me yoga.
I tried a Chinese herbal acupuncture. I mean when I'm

(35:25):
taking I was trying to heal myself, and I knew
I needed to take an antidepressant right. I knew I
needed to take an antidepression. I had an amazing psychiatrist
who was like, if you don't feel better by the
time your daughter is one, I don't want to hear it.
We're gonna try it, and I'm right here to go
through this with you each step of the way. She
was black, and she understood the culture. My therapist is

(35:49):
a Jewish Man, so I had a Jewish man having
my back and my black psychiatrist, and they helped me
get to the point where I took the antidepressants so
I could really start to heal because I was doing
all these other things. But the truth is I was
hormonally imbalanced the process of things correctly, so nothing else
was working for me. And I got on something called
move box, which is helpful for O c D. And

(36:11):
I think my family around me until this day because
I have two daughters. With my second daughter, I was like,
I'm gonna stay on the antidepressant and everyone was like,
why would you do that? Why would you You're gonna
harm your baby in the statistics that I said, Now,
I made this decision with my partner and my doctor. Y'all, chill,
y'all have not experienced what I experienced. Yeah, you just
needed some empathy. You just wanted some empathy. One of

(36:33):
the things I think it's interesting and I want to
make sure we talk about this. You mentioned that you
had a Jewish doctor and a black female doctor. Was
the Jewish doctor your first doctor or did you find him? Finally,
how did that tell me about the experience with that?
Because we know we talked about your journey. Let me
tell you how to find doctor SNAr I went through

(36:54):
several other therapists who were terrible. One was a white
woman who asked if she could record me for her
Excuse me, lady, do you know what it took for
me to get in here? And you want to record
my black thoughts? Ultimately not, that's what listen. She asked
us she can record me for her class. It's really

(37:15):
interesting how shamed you are. And I just want you
to know you're okay. I'm crying, she crying. We can't
both be here crying. What is siping right now? Let
me tell you everything happens for a reason. I saw
an episode of Doctor Oz and Dr Sarner was like,
he's like an expert in O c D. Do you
know I found this man in New York and he
is still my therapist. He's an amazing therapist. Yes, And

(37:38):
I was like, he has been one of my biggest
supporters because he was like, you can get through this.
But he made me feel the fields. He didn't just
let me the way I was crying with her and
she was crying. He was like, no, you're gonna get
through this, You'll be okay. But Dr I told him
that story. He wasn't black, but he's culturally competent. If
he didn't know something, he asked me before he says something.

(37:59):
He said, let me let me just say, this is
what I think is happening. We had conversations, and that's
why I say, your doctor doesn't have to be black,
but they need to be culturally competent. There aren't enough
black doctors in this country to serve all of us,
so we need culturally competent healthcare professionals. How did your
experience seeking help alter your view of the post natal
healthcare system overall? I realized that the system needs to

(38:23):
be revamped. I realized that women struggling is not something
that's top of mind for help, but a man being impotent.
They got all the pills for that postpartum anything. It's
really difficult to get the help you need, black, white,
or other. But if you are a black woman, this
health care system does not serve you. Right here in
New York, I'm twelve times more likely to die during childbirth.

(38:46):
You would think it would be somewhere down south and rest,
say in the rural area. Right here in Brooklyn, I'm
twelve times more likely to die. It just reminded me
of how devalued we are in this country and how
forgotten we are. And here we are. We have our babies,
and our babies come out healthy, and then we just
there's the ability to fall apart because no one is

(39:09):
taking care of us, whether it's family and friends because
mental health and postpartum cormabilities is stigmatized in general, or
whether it's the health care system who's like, I don't
have any time for you. So it just really showed
me that something had to be done, even just the conversation.
A lot of matters we started with conversation. You know
how many women cry at our events, and like I

(39:32):
felt this way. We have people who have kids that
are fourteen who come on and talk about what they experience,
and I feel like a big piece of what we've
done is give black mothers the ability to be vulnerable
and say I need help. We're not allowed to do
that in medicine. There's documentation that black women don't experience
pain the same as other people. It's insane, and there's

(39:59):
studies done. There have been anybody can look this up
and I say this all the time, look it up,
Look it up. There have been studies done where a
black woman is in pain, she'll get tail and all,
but a white woman will get a percoset or something,
and it's like, why is our pain different? That was
so powerful. I sitting here rethinking, you know, you gotta
go back through your life and you're like, wow, we

(40:20):
sure are treated different. I mean you started to just
have like revelations of all the things that have happened.
That's a whole another episode that it really is, because
we could be here all day with it. What actually
helped your postpartum O c D overall? And what was
it like to finally mother your daughter without the burden
of these other intrusive thoughts, and how is your relationship

(40:43):
with her now? When I got through my postpartum, I
just felt like such a better human. I felt like,
oh my god, I like really deep breath. But it
wasn't just the postpartum part. I was like, man like,
there was so much that I was dealing with that
were like walls to me being the mother that I

(41:03):
wanted to be. I feel like some of the worst
things that happened to us end up being the biggest
blessings because I was able to get the help that
I needed as a black woman who kept herself busy
instead of dealing with her anxiety. And when you have
a baby, you can't just keep yourself busy. You can't
just go to Puerto Rico for the weekend. You can't

(41:24):
just pick up and go. You have to deal with it.
And so yeah, and so I feel like my daughter
is the reason why I started. She matters and she's everything.
Both of my daughters are everything to me. She was
playing the other day with her friends and she had
posteds and somebody was like, oh, do you want to
play getting married? And she said, no, I want to play.

(41:44):
These are my companies. And I was like, yes, yes,
these are my companies. And I was like, she sees me.
And I feel so blessed that she came here to
teach me this lesson that is hopefully helping so many
other black women. Like the daughter mother relationship is so
healing in itself. I needed her to be this person

(42:05):
to help other women. That's crazy to me. Wow, it's
amazing how things will come back full circle. Right. I'm
so happy that you're able to help others. That's profound. Yeah,
what's your message to mothers experiencing postpartum code morbidities. Your
feelings are valid, your experiences are valid. You have the
right to explore what works for you. And if you

(42:28):
don't feel right, you don't feel right, don't let anybody
else tell you different. Go to somebody you trust. It
doesn't have to be somebody in family. You'll talk to
somebody at work, someone you don't know how well. Someone
someone who can give their opinion and you don't really
care what they say back. The person that you're not
close to may have an answer for you. And a
lot of times is the person that's closest to us
that can hurt us the most. Family is hard. We're

(42:50):
hard on each other. That's so true. What about the
partners we talked about this. What about the partners of
these mothers? How can they best provide support? What would
you say to them? Look for the signs. Look for
I don't want to take a shower. Your partner is
not sleeping, your partner is more irritable than normal, and
it's been past six weeks, which can be the baby blues.
Look for your partner sobbing, like crying all the time.

(43:13):
That's not normal either, right, And if you feel like
something's wrong. Ask them what are you experiencing? Not are
you okay? Because we've been conditioned to say I'm fine,
But what are you experiencing? That part can change an
answer right right, don't make it close end, Give an
open ending question, open ended question. I love that, I

(43:35):
love that. I love that. How is she Matters overall
making an impact in the lives of Black mothers? Tell
us about your organization before we get out of here.
I would like to think that we are a safe
space for black mothers who don't see themselves anywhere else,
that they can come here and know that they can

(43:55):
have a conversation with other black mothers. That you can
get culturally competent healthcare providers, information, you can get culturally
relevant resources. We have a symptom tracker for proclemsia, clemsia
and help syndrome. You can come here and you are safe.
You can take your makeup off. Right. I sound so

(44:17):
jersey when I said that you take your makeup off,
let your hair down, because I see you, I am you,
and I created this platform for black women. Right like this,
black women aren't confused about who She Matters is for,
and that was done purposely. We're opening up to different
to different cultures, different ethnicities later. But for me, I

(44:39):
had to take care of home first because we have
the worst statistics in the country, right, we have the
worst statistics. And I wanted to make sure that as
a black woman, I would saying, listen, something is going
to be done about this. We're not just here for
black women, black mothers, but we make sure that we
have a training a certification program for health care providers

(45:01):
because it's a conversation. The problem is miscommunication, right, So
we have a culturally competent certification for health care providers
to train them on how to better meet the needs
of black mothers. And so I'm not just talking to
you black mom and how to communicate with the health
care system, but health care system, this is how you
communicate with me, and you should be meeting me here too.
And that's that's the difference. That part. So there's duality

(45:24):
and in ownership and awareness. That's because we cannot do
it all alone. We are into America together. So let's
let's get together. This is an American and have the
health care system take some ownership for the people that
they provide service and take hyppocratic oaths to help people,
So you need to be in tune with the people

(45:44):
that you help, right. I want to make sure I
say this, this is an American problem. Black women are Americans,
so this is not a Black problem. This is an
American problem. That part. That part um so grateful with
the time to be a lot that we are here
now because I don't know if you guys saw it

(46:04):
online not long ago, they actually just put like a
pregnant woman like in all the doctor's images, but she
was black. It's the first time I've ever seen it
that that shows you right there, like we are so
far behind, even even in the small superficial thing. So
as we start to be seen in that way from
the outside, I pray they start to see us on

(46:25):
the inside as well, because we're all truly going through
the same thing. So yes, I'm glad She Matters exists,
and I'm glad that you are helping us all, and
I'm glad that you joined us today at the Virtual
Red Table. Thank you so much for sharing Jake, continue
your phenomenal work with She Matters, and thank you so

(46:45):
much for coming to the Virtual Red Table. I appreciate
youall for having me. For everyone listening If you want
more information, please visit she Matters dot health. We're gonna
take a short break right now, and when we returned
Will and By a mental health expert to the Virtual
Red Table, our episode continues to be all about Mama's

(47:11):
with a very special mental health moment, we get to
welcome another amazing guest who is transforming the birthing process
for mama's all around the world. Latham Thomas is a
maternity lifestyle maybe and founder of Mama Glow, a global
dola training program and maternity lifestyle brand that supports women

(47:31):
throughout their motherhood journeys. Thank you so much. Oh my goodness,
Late Thumb, I'm so excited, so thank you for being
here at our virtual Red table. Oh my god, Tracy,
I'm so excited to be here with you today. Thank
you so much for having me. Okay, we have so
much that we can cover. So now here's my first question.
The Lathan tell me what is Mama Glow. So, Mama

(47:54):
Glow is a global maternal health platform that offers education
for folks who on the path to become birth workers
and dulas. We have a cohort of overlas globally apartment
community that we've trained and we matched doulas with families,
and we do that across the country and even really
across the globe too. What I'm most proud of about

(48:17):
the work that we do is that we're really educating
the next generation of birth workers who will transform our
medical model absally farm these spaces, and so we have
a lot of people who are in medical school that
are doing the training. We have a lot of people
who come to the program and have established doula clubs

(48:37):
on their college campuses, and so we're so proud of
the work that we do there, and also on the
Movelo Foundation, which is really also committed to advancing reproductive
justice and birth equity primarily through education advocacy, and the
arts and education and advocacy are really big areas of
the work. How did Mama Glow come to be? I
love that question because the or gens of Mama Glow

(49:01):
really start with my pregnancy with my son, who's nineteen
years old, and in the time that I was navigating
pregnancy and living in New York City trying to find
the best resources and product, services and practitioners. If you
could think back to like twenty years ago, Okay, when
I was pregnant, the internet is not what it is today,
and I had to find a practitioner in a telephone book,

(49:21):
which is a relic, okay. And I was like the
first one in my friend group to have a baby,
and like, think about how challenging that is and not
having peer references and people to kind of coach me through.
What I came to learn from myself was that I
knew that I wanted to deliver with a midwife. I
knew that I wanted to liver in a birth center,

(49:43):
and I found one. I was living seven blocks away
from this birth center, so I go to this place.
They took our insurance. It was incredible. I worked with
midwife throughout the pregnancy. It was super empowering. There was
a sense of this respect of your body, bodily autonomy,
sovereign tea over your experience, and really a trust that

(50:03):
you could do this right. There was a belief in
our bodies. And so the Midway free model of care
I think was sort of the impetus for my falling
in love really with maternal health. And I would say,
if I had to reach back even further, I was
privileged to be four years old my mother was pregnant,

(50:23):
and my aunt and my great aunt were pregnant the
same time. So imagine being four years old and you're
seeing these bellies everywhere. You know. My mom's really deep
in body literacy, so she has me using coloring books
that teach anatomy. And so we're at the grocery store
and I'm like four and a half and someone comes
up to her and he says, oh, this is so sweet.

(50:47):
Your mother has a baby in her tummy. I said, no,
my mother has a baby in her uterus and it's
gonna her vagina. Okay, that person feign it, a little
grocery store person feign it, right, but then says, this
is what I was sort of immersed in culturely fast
forward to my pregnancy, and I just felt really empowered, right,
and so coming on the other side of that experience

(51:09):
delivering with midwives walking out of there six hours later
after the deliving my son, I felt so empowered, and
I knew that I wanted to help other people to
have empowered birth experiences as well. We're going to have
a side by conversation about your great being pregnant at
the same time as your mom and your unts that's
amazing all on its own. I love that though doulas

(51:31):
have been supporting mothers for decades, but many people don't
understand they're very real and measurable impact. How do doulas
improve outcomes for mama's and babies? This is such a
powerful question. Doulas matter, Doulas are important. Doula's help to
shift culture, doula's help to protect families. What I'm concerned

(51:53):
about as we think about the maternal health landscape is
how to shore up or support for people in our communities.
As we look at the maternal health crisis that exists
in this country, where we have black women being four
to five times more likely than white women to die
during childbirth or due to the childbirth related causes. When

(52:15):
we think about the fact that one in four women
head back to work ten to fourteen days after having
a baby in the United States, unreal. Unreal. When we
think about the lack of social services and safety nets
for families in this country, duellists really kind of fit
these policy gaps right where we do not have structural

(52:37):
supports and help people navigate the most challenging, the most vulnerable,
and the most powerful time in their lives. The impact
it is tangible and measurable, and we think about the
presence of a doulah inside of a birth space. We're
talking about a reduction in cincerian sections and increase of
vaginal deliveries. We're talking about a reduction in pharmaceuticals like

(52:58):
potos and augment ation. We're talking about an increase in
maternal satisfaction, a decrease in postpartum depression and anxiety, and
a better assimilation into new parenthood if it does occur.
We're talking about helping a family really coalesce and smoothly
transition into new parenthood. It is so important to have

(53:21):
people who witness you in your vulnerability, who support you
and provide the basic supports that we all need, which
are to be seen, to be heard, to feel uSens
of belonging, because they're also helpful if someone experiences miscarriage
or loss right with someone's navigating abortion like we are
here for the entirety of the reproductive continuum to support people.

(53:43):
You mentioned postpartum depression and other issues that may come
up postpartum. How do do list support moms with postpartum
depression O c D or other postpartumental illnesses. When I
think about what's necessary on the postpartum continuum, when we
find people who are dealing with depressive sentomology, This doesn't

(54:05):
just show up at the time of birth. I would
love to dispel one thing, which is that it's not
just in the postpartum period that depression shows up, right,
it's in fact, along the pregnancy continuum we see depressive
sentomology surface. And so when we talk about perinatal mood disorders,
we're talking about the entire continuum. And doula is working

(54:27):
with clients during pregnancy can start to see, right, see
aspects of where, oh, this person has anxiety, this person
is really suffering, like we sometimes see it where somebody
who came to pregnancy through challenge, right, like maybe through
many miscarriages, losses, and they get to a place who
are now the anxieties around if it's even possible, right,

(54:48):
can I even do this fear that, like you know,
the baby is not going to stay? I don't know,
Like every day I'm like, you know, on edge about
testing and results and all these things. We have to
work on getting into a place where are using mindfulness
techniques and emotional self regulation techniques to navigate that challenge.
We have people who are in situations domestically that are challenging.

(55:09):
But the biggest thing when we think about depression and
in the postpartum period and and just this continue in general,
is that the only way that we can address it
is by meeting the needs of the individual, understanding what
their unique needs are, and mostly it is creating supports. Right.
So where some people they may come to a decision

(55:33):
where pharmaceuticals are the pathway for them, but most of
the time, when we get a handle on it early,
we can actually mitigate symptoms with support and so that Yes,
So what that means is when you think about what
you do for an infant, right, you make sure that

(55:53):
an infintish change. They're fed, they've picked up constantly, They're like,
you would never leave them alone own, right. These are
the same things we need to do with a postpartum person.
We're feeding them, we're hugging them, we're attending to them.
We're not leaving them alone. Right. They have a separate
but equal swaddling. They have to be swaddled. Yes, the

(56:15):
nurturing right that we really focus on giving for infants,
we need to really think about this person who is
born into motherhood or parenthood as somebody who is really
also deeply vulnerable. So you find out you're pregnant, at
what point does expectant mother connect with and bring a
doula in. Yeah, that's a great question. So I would

(56:36):
say that it really depends on the person and their needs.
The great thing about doula work is that, depending on
what someone needs, you can design care for them that
really supports where they are in their life journey. So
if you're someone like I mentioned before, who has navigated
difficult terrain in finding your pathway to pregnancy, you might

(56:56):
want to work with a doula earlier, right early, right right.
If you're someone who moved to a new place, doesn't
have friends and community, you might want to get someone
earlier on so you can tap into their resources and
some of the supports that they have for you. Generally, though,
people will come around sixteen weeks at the earliest, I

(57:17):
would say, but weeks is around when folks start to
book their duelists, and then you have those people working
with you through the early postpartum period as well. How
can the mama's inner circle best support her after she
gives birth. From your perspective as a duo Tracy, I
love this question because it's an area where we need

(57:37):
people to be more educated, where folks need to start
having conversations with their sister circle. Because we celebrate the pregnancy. Yes,
we'll shower you with gifts and give you what we
think you needed supplies. But then after you have the baby,
you better preach Hello, that's exactly right. And after the
baby comes, it's like where my friends go, like the

(57:58):
phone isn't ringing and nobody coming by. Right after the
first week, it's like you're isolated. Hello, I need you
to come and help me. That's exactly right. And here's
the thing. Most people haven't practiced asking for help. If
you think about culturally, right, most of us have been
in positions of servitude inside of our families, right, We've
been service leaders in our families, and so it's not

(58:22):
even within our purview to be able to ask, right,
because everybody's asking us. And so now we're in a
position where we're vulnerable and we don't have the tools.
We haven't exercised that muscle. So what I love about
the pregnancy opportunity is that there are many junctures along
your pregnancy where there is something that you cannot do right,

(58:45):
that you cannot do alone. And so the invitation is
to learn how to practice asking in those smaller moments.
Oh my gosh, can you help me tie my shoe? Right? Oh?
I don't feel well? Can you make me some tea?
Can you grab me that sandwich? I'm craving? Feel like
we need a checklist, We need an inner circle checklist, yes,
and doing a postpartum care checklist ahead a postpartum right,

(59:08):
So think about just like can you do a birth plan,
you do postpartum plan? Right? So this is like the
people that I want in my inner circle, who I
want around? These should be people who I know can
contribute to my support system right tangibly contribute. So this
is somebody who can cook, This is somebody who can
help clean and keep them organized. Somebody can run and
get the diapers. Somebody who can watch a baby while

(59:30):
take a shower. Who we're gonna be These people who
I know we're gonna be, um, really in overtentive about cleanliness,
and we'll be checking everybody and dressing it down until
I feel comfortable for them to come through that threshold
into my okay, because we're not bringing no germs into
the baby. No, you know have a barrier. You have
to that's a barrier. Thank you. Right, but right we

(59:57):
can talk. I'm telling you you and I can talk
about this until the cows come home because there's so
much to cover. There's just a wealth of information that
you shared already. I can't tell you how much I
appreciate you joining us and being here at the virtual
Red Table. And you know your expertise is just invaluable.
It really is, it really is. And I want to

(01:00:19):
let everyone know that you can learn more about Mama
Glow by visiting Mama Glow dot com. Sathan, thank you.
We want to know how you're feeling about this new
season of Red Table Talk and we are open to
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at Let's red Table that at red table talk dot com,

(01:00:42):
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(01:01:28):
you to our sound engineers Calvin Bailiff and Devin Donaghey.
Let's let's table that