June 13, 2023 • 41 mins
Not only does Plato's Symposium hype up love between men as quite literally godlike, but it also provides us with the absolutely wild idea of Aristophanean soulmates... Help keep LTAMB going by subscribing to Liv's Patreon for bonus content!
CW/TW: far too many Greek myths involve assault. Given it's fiction, and typically involves gods and/or monsters, I'm not as deferential as I would be were I referencing the real thing.
Sources: Plato's Symposium, Penguin edition translated by Christopher Gill; public domain translation for long passages, translated by B. Jowett; "Erastes-Eromenos Relationships in Two Ancient Epics" by Morgan van Kesteren.
Attributions and licensing information for music used in the podcast can be found here: mythsbaby.com/sources-attributions.
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:32):
Oh, hi, hello there, this is let's talk about MIT's baby,
And I am that host of yours live and well, God,
sometimes I bite off more than I can chew. Hey,
it's happening more and more the deeper I get into
the sources and the more I exhaust the more typical,
straightforward stories for myth and myth adjacent stories. And I mean,
(00:52):
I'm glad I'm going this deep, Glad I'm covering texts
like this one. But sometimes they're difficult, you know, like
the Symposium. So I set out to cover this text
because it's really important in the grand scheme of ancient Greece.
I don't normally care about the philosophers, and that's not changing,
but it has all these important historical and mythological implications,
(01:16):
and it's been referenced a few times in conversation episodes
that I've recorded lately, and so I really wanted to
dive deeper. Because God's I just did the most surface
level reading of it, of just that soulmate's bit that
one time. It's like ten minutes long, wild, so it
felt right to go into more detail this time. But
of course I forgot how tricky that could be. So
(01:39):
today I'm going to try to synthesize it a bit
more clearly, hopefully stay out of the weeds a bit
more than the part one episode, and just stick to
the bits of the stories that I think are most
relevant to my purpose. I want to talk about love
in ancient Greece. I mean really only revolves around men
in this but still I want to talk about the
the silly but interesting idea of soulmates that's presented other halves,
(02:05):
with an emphasis on again how they saw love between men,
because it's really interesting topic that truly has so much
to look at. It's fascinating. We'll get into it. I
talked a lot about though the erastes of romanos relationships
last week. I won't do it again. We're going to
turn not to dwell on the age disparities, because, like
(02:25):
I said then, while we all see it as seriously
troubling now, it was unaccepted practice back then, and there's
good evidence that the men and young men in most
of these relationships really did benefit love each other. Just generally.
It was a good thing because life was different, morality
was different, literally everything was different. It is also, particularly
(02:46):
when we're not talking about mythology it's one of the
few means through which we can look at romantic and
sexual relationships between men in ancient grace. I know there's
still a lot of debate about the topic, particularly within
the study of it, which I won't I won't weigh
in on in favor of just emphasizing that the discussions
in this dialogue at their core are in favor of
(03:07):
two men being romantically and sexually in love, and as
will come up in a future conversation. It can be
understood in some myths and sources that the reason so
many romantic relationships of myth actually end in tragedy could
be that they were not relationships that aligned with the
erastes of Romanos tradition, and therefore we're seen as kind
(03:28):
of outside of the norm. That is all to say,
those relationships will come up again in this episode, because
they were just an enormous part of the lives of
the men who are being fictionalized in this dialogue and
in Plato's world itself. Where we last left this absolutely
Banana's dinner and drinking party, a few of the men
(03:48):
gathered had already spoken about love, how they viewed the concept,
and the god and the priorities. Therein the height was
of course the discussion of Achilles and Patrickluss, where everyone
the party was in agreement that the two mythological characters
were very much in love with each other romantically. The
only question to be debated was who was the Erastes
(04:09):
and who is the Aromanos? The penetrator and the penetrated
bat though, was up for furious debate, and apparently Eschylus
was very wrong in his depiction, that is in a
very tragically lost play called the Mermidons. And then well,
then the fictional version of Aristophanes, the comedic playwright took
(04:34):
up the mantle and made it all seriously fucking weird.
I also read something right after I'd finished recording that
last episode, so I'll note it here. But apparently there
are theories that the reason Aristophanes's speech is so very ridiculous,
and we haven't even gotten into the most absurd of it,
is actually because Plato saw Aristophanes's version of Socrates in
(04:57):
his play The Clouds as having worked against the philosopher
in the court case against him, and so he chose
to make Aristophanes sound like monstrously ridiculous in this dialogue,
and I mean, given how weird this is about, you
get like I can see it. This is episode two fifteen,
(05:27):
Socrates and Alchibiides the Lovers you never knew you needed.
Plato's Symposium, Part two. Aristophanes began last week by explaining
(05:51):
that in the early days of humanity, humans looked very
different from now. They were doubled basically but also seemingly honestly,
I can't help but picture like ball shaped humans. In
any case, they had two of everything, and there were
three types, three genders, male, female, and a combination of
(06:12):
the two. But these oddly shaped humans weren't docile, and
instead they threatened the gods, threatening Olympus cartwheeling around. Even
Zeus knew he had to do something about it, but
he didn't want to wipe humans off the map. The
gods needed them to worship and to sacrifice and poor
libations to the gods, all the things humans do for
(06:34):
the deities. Instead, he determined to weaken them and their
threat by splitting them in half. And as a bonus,
it will also mean double the humans and thus double
the worship of the gods. And so Zeus cut all
the humans of Earth in two cut them as one
(06:56):
would slice an apple or a hard boiled egg. With
the help of Apollo, the newly split humans were fused
together to form what we now understand to be humanity,
with all their extra flesh and skin pulled together and
tied up. Yet the belly button very normal stuff, definitely
(07:17):
not weird and wacky as all hell. He also smoothed
wrinkles shaped chests, but left that navel so that humans
would always have a memory of what they once were.
But Aristovanus continues quote, since their original nature had been
cut into, each one longed for its own other half
(07:39):
and stayed with it. They threw their arms round each other,
weaving themselves together, wanting to form a single living thing.
He explains that they often died from hunger and lack
of movement because once they found their other halves, they
wanted to do nothing else but hold on to them.
(08:01):
Unless you think we're getting to the cute bit where
we just talk about soulmates, we now learned that up
until this point, everyone was kind of dying off because
they were so preoccupied with their other halves or and
because their genitals hadn't been rearranged along with the rest
of them. They'd been on their backs, and they hadn't
(08:22):
been able to reproduce with each other, but with the
earth itself, they were fucking the earth, just like Aristophanes,
says Cicadas. Realizing this was what his new humanity was missing,
Zeus finally rearranged them so that their genders were on
(08:45):
the front. Lucky then now, Aristophanes tells the others, when
a man met a woman, they were able to reproduce.
And he adds very specifically, quote if two males came together,
they would at least have the satisfaction of sexual intercourse
and then relax, turn to their work and think about
the other things in their life. This, we are told,
(09:07):
is how humanity came to desire one another. Romantic and
sexual desire pulls together two people in the hopes that
they are the other halves of the original humans, makes
them return to their true nature, their true selves. It
tries to form one human from two to seal the
wounds that were left when the gods split them in two.
(09:32):
Because of this, every human is always searching for this
other half of themselves, this soul mate. He explains that
men who were split from the all male gender search
for their other halves in men. Women are the same
when split from the female, and those who were split
from the human with the combined gender search for their
(09:53):
other half in the opposite gender. But well, again, this
dialogue is very gay, and thus we get the added
detail that those men who were attracted to women and
those women who were attracted to men, they're the ones
most likely to be adulterers. That's right, when the men
searching for their other half and another man are young,
(10:14):
Aristophanes says they are the best of humanity because those
who sleep with other men are the bravest. He explains
that some people say these men are shameless, but that's
not true. Quote it's not out of shamelessness that they
do this, but because they are bold, brave, and masculine
and welcome the same qualities in others. He goes so
(10:35):
far as to explain that these great men who are
only attracted to other men, would happily live that way forever,
spending their lives together in real satisfaction, and it's only
that necessity often dictates that they marry women due to
their general societal convention and the need to procreate. Aristophanes
(10:57):
details that those people who find their trueth who other haves,
which is of course a very rare thing. Most spend
their time with others of the gender of their true half,
but not necessarily that exact person unless they're just that lucky.
But when they are that lucky, they spend their entire
lives together and wish, though they don't even entirely understand
(11:19):
why themselves, that they could be one person with their
other half fused together for eternity, living and dying together.
And that's why, he says, quote love is the name
for the desire and pursuit of wholeness. This and the
threat that if humans aren't good enough to the gods
(11:42):
they could be further split from themselves is why humans
worship the gods as they do, and why love the
god and the concept is the leader of everyone. Quote.
If we are friends of the God and have him
on our side, we shall do what few people now
do do find and become close to the loved ones
(12:03):
that are really our own. Aristophanes clarifies to that that
he doesn't want the men listening to think he's only
trying for comedy, or that he's speaking only to Pausanias
and Agathon, who where to understand have been committed in
relasting relationships, either with each other or just other men,
(12:24):
I'm unclear. He emphasizes that they are cut from the
all male original form finding love and attraction in other men.
But regardless of this, he wants to make sure it's
clear he's referring to everyone, regardless of their gender or
the gender they're attracted to, and that quote, our human
race can only achieve happiness if love reaches its conclusion
(12:46):
and each of us finds his loved one and restores
his original nature. With his speech over, Aristophanes once again
(13:12):
reminds Eric Simmachus as the doctor in the room, that
he isn't trying for comedy, even if it sounds like
he is. He's quite serious what that means for Aristophanes
as a real person and Plato and Plato's thoughts on
Aristophanes is a bit less certain regardless the dialogue, and
we are moving on to the last two official speeches.
(13:34):
Agathon is up first and then Socrates himself. Agathon gets
a little nervous. Socrates implies that he's going to have
an amazing speech and that the philosopher isn't thrilled about
having to follow it up. They speak of Agathon as
a tragedian, as this dialogue takes place shortly after he's
won the Dinysia, and Socrates emphasizes the confidence that he
(13:58):
had on the stage and and thus he shouldn't feel
any differently now. Finally, Agathon is convinced to begin. He
wants to speak of love as the god, as the
concept itself, noting that the others have focused their speeches
on the things humans get from love rather than on
love himself. That's where Agathon comes in. He also says that,
(14:23):
contrary to what's already been said in favor of the god,
he doesn't believe that Aro's Love is the oldest of
the gods, instead that he's the youngest, that he is
the youngest, and that he runs from old age, flees
from it, avoids aging at all, and is the most
youthful and beautiful of all the gods. That is Agathon's argument.
(14:47):
He knows this because he says, all of the things
the gods did in those earliest days of the world,
as people like Heasy had recorded, they wouldn't have been possible,
They wouldn't have happened if had been there quote, the
gods would not have castrated or imprisoned each other or
done those many acts of violence. If love had been
(15:10):
among them, there would have been friendship and peace between them,
as there is now and has been since Love began
to rule among the gods. Agathon says that Love lives
amongst the most sensitive of humans because he is himself
a sensitive god. That he finds the softest minds and
(15:31):
characters and avoids those who are hard and tough. He
speaks of the shape of arrows, that he himself is
soft and pliable. That's how he manages to get so
deep into the minds and characters of humans. That he
is soft and beautiful and spends his time amongst the flowers.
That avoids things and people who aren't the same, who've
(15:53):
lost their bloom. Is that implying that old or less
than beautiful people won't find love? Assume not. With discussion
of Aros's appearance and beauty out of the way, he's
moving on to discuss the god's virtue and God's Is
he virtuous? Agathon says that Love never does anything that
(16:15):
could be seen as an injustice, and that no injustices
are committed on him. He says that love is never forced,
and thus nothing is forced on him. Quote. When love
does anything, he doesn't use force. Since everyone consents to
all Love's orders and whatever is agreed by mutual consent,
that is what laws the sovereignty of the city define
(16:38):
as just. Love is courageous too, Agathon explains, not even
Aries could stand up to love, even he bowed to
Aphrodite and what she represents. And since Aris is the
bravest of all others, love must be the bravest of everyone.
Of course, love is also wise. And yes, now it's
(17:00):
sounds a bit like that bit of the Bible that
they read it weddings. I'm assuming it's the Bible. Love
is patient, you know, whatever you get it anyway, Agathon
says that love is wise, and he's going to explain
why love is such a great poet that when someone
is touched by love, even if he's never once been
inspired by the muses in the past, he will himself
(17:20):
become one of the greatest poets of all time. He
links love Arros to many of the most important of gods,
connecting the rules of Apollo, Hephistus, Athena, and even Zeus
to Aros because everything they are in charge of ultimately
is inspired by love and his wisdom. Love led Apollo
(17:42):
to discover archery and music and so much more. The
inspired Hephaistus to discover metalwork. The list goes on, and
it always comes back to love. Agathon continues to espouse
the wonders that he sees as love, listing everything he
can imagine, and finishing with quote for the whole company
(18:04):
of gods and humans, most beautiful and best of leaders.
Every man should follow him, singing beautiful hymns of praise,
sharing the song he sings to charm the mind of
every god and human. Agathon's speech is met with applause
and cheers. He's impressed the group, though no one is surprised.
(18:27):
He's the tragedian among them, after all, the poet, and
they're celebrating his win at the Dionysia in the first place.
He was always going to have a great speech. Socrates
then turns to Eric Simachus and asks whether his earlier
nerves at having to follow Agathon were unfounded after all.
But Noah, But still He's told that while Agathon certainly
(18:51):
spoke just as well as Socrates imagined he would, he
certainly he Socrates certainly won't be lost for words. He's Socrates,
after all, and so it's time for the philosopher to
speak in true Socrates fashion. And yes, most of my
knowledge of Socrates is utter bullshit and comes entirely from
(19:12):
Assassin's creed Odyssey. I am, after all, an expert in mythology,
not philosophy, regardless, and what I will trust is true
Socrates fashion. He starts his speech by explaining that he
thought he understood the parameters of what they were doing
and speaking of love, but in fact, it turns out
he was wrong. After all, he sees, now having listened
(19:33):
to everyone else present their thoughts, that it isn't about
telling the truth of the topic, finding the best features
and presenting them in a way that makes love look
the best and truthful. But instead he's learned he should
quote claim that your subject has the great and finest qualities,
whether it really does or not. And if what you
say isn't true, it doesn't matter very much. Shots fired Socrates.
(20:00):
He goes further, suggesting that they all basically just said
what they thought they should, keeping love happy, but he's
not about to follow their lead. Instead, he says he's
going to tell the truth. He asks, though, whether Fidris,
who's the one who started the whole call for speeches,
even wants to hear what he has to say now
that he's announced that his only intention is to tell
(20:21):
the truth in whatever words come to him. But yes,
they want to hear it, and so he starts by
asking whether it's okay if he begins asking Agathon questions
it is. Socrates launches into a debate with Agathon, pushing
him on what he's included in his own speech, asking
him questions and follow ups based on Agathon's responses. This
(20:44):
bit of the symposium is the most Socrates like bit,
and thus the most reminiscent of most of Plato's dialogues,
because Socrates so often features to nudge other speakers to
question them and push back, letting Plato's own philosophy guide
the conversations through who Socrates is questioning. Essentially, he questions
the nature of love as Agathon described it, requiring beauty
(21:07):
and desire, and eventually getting Agathon to agree that in
order to desire something, one mustn't have it to begin with. Then, thus,
if someone is desiring beauty, they must be ugly. And
then because if this is true. The same applies to goodness,
and so ultimately this means that love, both the God
and the concept is neither beautiful nor good. There's so
(21:33):
much more to it, but frankly, trying to turn this
very Socratic debate into a narrative that I and thus
you all can understand is not my strong suit. I'm
doing my best, and I know sometimes that's frustrating. I've
had people question lately why I do episodes on things
like this when it is not my specialty, and because
I don't understand the philosophers particularly well or Plato's writing,
And honestly, I mean like I do it because I
(21:54):
think much of the symposium is something I can speak
to and share with you all, and it's important and
sometimes my show is your access point to everything. And
even if that means that there are bits like these
where I just tell you what I can and suggest
you read it on your own if you're interested, I
don't really see any less value in these episodes, but
I will just say reading this that yes, it seems
(22:15):
like Seven's Great Odyssey does an amazing job of presenting
at least the Platonic idea of Socrates. Because few he's
a bit insufferable back to him. Having proven Agathon wrong
in his own speech, Socrates explains that now he's going
to tell them all about a conversation he once had
with a woman named Diotima, who was herself so impressive
(22:39):
that she once kept Athens from plague for ten years,
having told them how to sacrifice in order to achieve this,
so you know, she's a fancy lady. He also explains
that this conversation he had with her resulted much the
same as the one he just had with Agathon, except
that it was Diotima who played the role of Socrates,
questioning his his own ideal of the god of love
(23:02):
and beauty and goodness, until she proved much the same
thing that Socrates just proved to Agathon. She takes it further, though,
proving through similar arguments that in fact, love isn't a
god at all, but a damon, a kind of spirit,
something in between a human and a god, whose function
is to quote, interpret, and carry messages from humans to
(23:25):
gods and from gods to humans. They convey prayers and
sacrifice from humans, and commands and gifts in return for
sacrifices from gods. These spirits, and love as one of them,
she told Socrates, is the intermediary. They fill the gaps
between the humans and gods and allow the universe to
(23:46):
then function as a whole. Dootim presents a whole new
(24:18):
idea of love. Obviously, through this idea of a spirit
rather than a god, she also presents a new birth story,
one that takes place at a celebration of Aphrodite's birth,
but where Aros is not her child nor a primordial
being at all. Instead, he's the child of resource and
poverty and became an attendant of Aphrodite purely because he
(24:40):
was conceived and born at a party for her. But
this version of love is poor and ugly and has
nowhere to live. That is the true nature of this
form of love. And in mind, he is somewhere between
wisdom and ignorance, but constantly seeking more. Basically, he's a
philosopher seeking further knowledge understanding. Through this recounted conversation between
(25:04):
Diotima and Socrates, we learn the idea of this very
different form of love, and the idea that beauty isn't
the end goal as it seemed from the earlier speeches,
but instead it's a means of reaching the end goal.
She shifts the idea of beauty into that of good being,
that humans see good things rather than beautiful things, with
(25:27):
the result of such ownership being a general happiness contentedness
in humans. She then connects all of this to the
idea of reproduction, but as I understand it, which frankly,
it is very difficult to understand, because my brain just
does not work well with this kind of philosophy. Reproduction
here is referring to kind of everything, or rather everything
(25:49):
that can be created produced from the basic idea of
human reproduction, children, to art and wisdom and knowledge, generally virtue,
thing that can be created by mind or body. She
goes on to return to the characters that we've heard
of before, people like Alchists who died for Admetus and Achilles,
(26:10):
who died because Patrickliss had died, and Diotima asks Socrates
if if these two would still have given their lives
for their significant others, if they'd known that they wouldn't
get anything out of it, that they wouldn't be remembered
for it, or seen as brave and virtuous, whatever it
might have been that they got for their actions, If
(26:31):
those things had been off the table, would either have
still sacrificed themselves. No, she says, it's immortality that they
were actually seeking. This then gets connected more specifically to
those that are called pregnant in mind, their relationships with
others being unrelated to sex and instead inspiration their children
(26:55):
being their work. She even notes poets like Hesiod and
Homer who people are so because of the types of
children they produced, their children being their art, their poems,
which are immortal. Her argument is about beauty and love,
but also an attempt to separate those things from romance
and sex, seeking both in the mind rather than the body.
(27:19):
She speaks of sexual love of men and their boyfriends,
of everything that's already been discussed in the rest of
the symposium, but instead emphasizes the importance of beauty and
love in the mind and what that can produce, rather
than the physical and God's I'm hoping I've correctly explained
what is happening in this section, because it turns out,
again my brain does not meld well with the way
(27:42):
Plato forms his arguments, and I'm instead I'm used to
reading his storytelling bits rather than things like this. I
have done my best Socrates finishes his story of Geotima
and his speech by explaining that the men assembled there
listening could take it as a speech in favor of
love the rest of them, or they could take it
as a speech of whatever else. He doesn't much care,
(28:05):
just that he was able to make his points. And
then Aristophanes tries to speak about something. He wants to
argue a point maybe or defend himself since his speech
came up amongst Socrates is but they're all interrupted by
a very drunk Alchebides. There's a loud, almost frantic, but
(28:47):
certainly excessive knocking at the door that interrupts the men
as they attempted to continue to speak of love of
their own speeches. Agathon calls to one of his enslaved
people to go to the door and see who it is,
and moments later it is this very drunk and rowdy
Alchebyides who's brought in to the group. He hadn't been
(29:09):
there before, but is crashing the party. Now he's not alone,
but he's like a little group of partiers with him,
and on his arm, he's got a flute girl, or
rather she's kind of holding him up as he demands
to see Agathon. He appears, and he's wearing a garland
of ivy and violets. He's got ribbons all over his head.
He's truly decked out, and he says, quote, good evening, gentlemen.
(29:33):
Will you let someone who's drunk, very drunk, join your symposium?
Or should we just put a garland on Agathon? Which
is why we've come and go away. He's arrived intending
to celebrate Agathon, bringing him garlands and ribbons in honor
of his win at the Dionysia, and he announces that
this means the Dagathon is officially the wisest and most beautiful.
(29:57):
They all welcome Alcybyides, happy have the oh so drunk
and ridiculous man join their party. It isn't as though
they haven't been drinking the entire time too. Alcibiades comes in,
making himself comfortable, but the ribbons he's had on his
head they've covered his vision a bit, and so when
he sits down and gets all comfy without not actually
(30:19):
noticing that though Agathon is on one side of him,
it's actually Socrates who's there on the other side. And
when he finally sees a Socrates He's startled, suggesting that
the philosopher has been there lying in wait. He adds, quote,
why did you choose this couch? I see you didn't
pick Aristophanes or anyone else who's prepared to make a
(30:40):
fool of himself, but you made sure you'd be lying
beside the most attractive man in the room. He's jealous,
it seems, Socrates is sitting next to the haughtie that
is Agathon, to which Socrates replies asking for Agathon's help,
saying that Alchiviiides is such a nuisance, and that specific
it's actually his own love for Alchabyides that's caused it,
(31:04):
that causes him such grief that it has ever since
he started loving Alcabiides, He says, quote, I haven't been
able to look or talk to a single attractive man
without his getting so jealous and resentful that he goes
crazy and shouts at me and almost beats me up. God,
this is getting fun, isn't it. These two? Huh. Now,
(31:28):
we don't know for sure, but Plato certainly seems to
suggest that these two are lovers or were at some
point both were married. But it's a great example of
how these things were, and by lovers we do mean
Erastes orramanos whatever that means everything that's been talked about
in this emposium itself. You know, Socrates was alchabiides teacher,
(31:49):
he sees elder, so they had a relationship. And once
these two men get past their little little drama, Alcabiides
announces that it's quite obvious that the rest of them
are not merely drunk enough, and he elects himself to
be their master of ceremonies, or rather just the one
to push them all to drink a lot more. He
calls for more wine to be brought in, and he
(32:10):
nudges them all to drink up, though he notes that
it won't work for Socrates. He can drink so much
without ever seeming drunk. Seems very Socrates like, if you
ask me, Eric Simmachus eventually points out, like Alkipiides, are
you not gonna contribute at all other than your drunkenness?
So explains what they've been doing that night, and he
(32:30):
asks Alcibiides for his own take on love. But Alkibides
doesn't really think this is fair having someone as drunk
as he is compete with the others, and anyway, He says,
everything Socrates just said about me was bullshit, and it's
the other way around. It's it's Alkibiides, who can't speak
to other men without Socrates getting jealous. Gods, I love
(32:51):
these two together. They are ridiculous. They begin arguing about it,
with Alchebiides saying things like, quote Bipusoseidon, don't contradict me
on this point. And so at this Eric Simachus has
the idea that Alcopianites shouldn't give a speech on love
like the rest of them, but instead a speech on Socrates,
(33:15):
and he will, oh, he will. He begins by comparing
Socrates to statues of Silenus, which were ugly and hollow
and had little statues of other gods inside. But then
he compares him to satyrs, which were known for their
sexual appetite and often shown with enormous erections. So you know,
take what you want from that. He speaks about Socrates
(33:36):
and how he affects him, how listening to him speak
has a kind of frenzied effect on him, how it
consumes him and keeps him from thinking of anything else
beyond questioning whether his life is even worth anything at all.
He explains that it's only in Socrates's presence that he's
ever capable of feeling shame that he he can't argue
(33:57):
anything with him, that'll always just do what ever Socrates
asks of him. He talks about how he sometimes wishes
Socrates was gone from the world, but then in the
same moment, he knows he wouldn't be able to deal
with the loss of him. He talks about Socrates being
drawn to young, beautiful men and being unable to tear
(34:18):
himself away from them. He talks of Socrates messing with people,
playing with them, once again connecting him to the God's side.
Lenus the statues full of little gold statues, How he
once saw those those little gold things within Socrates and
thought he'd never seen anything so beautiful. He then goes
on to explain it in great detail, how often he
(34:40):
thought that his relationship with Socrates would would turn sexual,
how much he wanted it, how often he wanted it
to happen. He he thought it would that they would,
they would certainly get sexy. He wanted it so bad,
and every time nothing. Finally, he says he had to
take things, would do his own hands, though it should
(35:02):
have been the other way around. He had to decide
to play the role of the erastes as if it
were Socrates who was the arominous, the younger one. So
he invited Socrates to dinner, and after dinner, Socrates settled
in to stay the night. But when they got to talking,
Alchabiides came to the conclusion that Socrates just made him
(35:24):
feel like he just wanted to be a better person,
and that he was the Socrates was the best person
to help him get there. Socrates, though among other things,
doesn't agree with that point, and he doesn't see how
he could help Alcibiides. But Alcibiides essentially says that regardless,
he's gonna continue as he said he's he's gonna let
(35:45):
Socrates determine what's best for him, let him guide him
to be a better man. And then that night they
just cuddled up and they went to sleep next to
each other, but there was still no sexy Times quote.
Then I threw my arms around this really godlike an
amazing man, and lay there with him all night long,
(36:06):
and again I say I love them Alcibiides, though, he
says that when he woke up, he was embarrassed and
he felt that his really astounding his famous even good looks.
They had failed him. They hadn't moved Socrates to make
their relationship sexual. He moves on, though, as best he can,
(36:29):
as he talks about their their long lasting relationship, and
he goes on to describe when they served in the
same battle in a war and how amazing and valorous
Socrates was. Then he sings Socrates his praises before returning
to the lover of it all and noting that this
is something Socrates has done before to others, essentially taking
(36:51):
on an a romanos relationship but never letting it turn
to sex. Alcibiides is particularly frustrated by this, but it
seems just the nature of Socrates, and this is the
case for these erastes ramenos. They weren't always sexual, and
certainly theirs is a good example of the erominos very
(37:12):
much wishing the erastes would turn it sexual. This, it seems,
is intentionally. It's pulling back to Socrates's speech earlier when
he also spoke about love and relationships, but friendships without
sexual aspects. Now. I won't try to explain the full
details here, but essentially this moment in the symposium is
(37:35):
getting to the idea of platonic love as we think
of it, much to Alchebiid's dismay, and with Alchabyides finished
in his speech, they they all start to sort of
bug him, nudge him about it. Agathon even decides he's
gonna taunt him by lying down on the other side
(37:56):
of Socrates, since Alchabides had so specific lane between them
to keep the man away from Socrates. And once again,
poor Alchabyeides has to say, quote, oh Zeus, what I
suffer from this person? But he does in the end,
he lets Agathon lie between them instead, the best of
(38:17):
both worlds. They all spent the night there in Agathon's
home after their drunken night of revelry and wild speeches,
and in the morning, you know, some of them had
left and others got stuck debating with Socrates all over again. Uh, Herds,
(38:53):
thank you so much for listening. That was so much
wild that I expected. Honestly, I didn't really know what
I was getting myself into when covering this dialogue after
last week's episode. I also got a bit worried that
I was gonna fuck it up. But I'm pretty happy
with this because God's is Zakabidi's fun and all other
discussions are fascinating for so many different reasons, the biggest
of all being like, what is Plato actually saying? A
(39:15):
question I will not remotely try to answer? But you
all can have a think about it and read the
symposium for yourselves if you so desire. In the meantime,
this was very fun and God's is it all about
how awesome it is to be a man in love
with another man? That's really what it seems to come
down to the whole thing. I don't have a five
(39:35):
star review to read today. I've had to pull too
many because of how many episodes I've had to prepare
and advance of my trip to Greece. And while I've
only gotten a couple of meh not five star reviews
in the past day or two. So here we are,
we're going without. This episode is long enough anyway, and
it's so long, and my brain is so much that
(39:56):
I typed love instead of long because of how many
times I typed the word loved. But thank you all
for listening, and hey, maybe leave me a five star
review if you'd like. Thank you. Let's talk of MIT's Baby,
as written produced by me live. Albert MICHAELA. Smith is
the Hermes and my Olympians. She is the best. She
pulled a bunch of articles for this, a lot of
which I didn't have time to read fully, but I
love her for it anyway. Stephanie Foley works to transcribe
(40:17):
the podcast for YouTube captions and accessibility. The podcast is
hosted and montae by iHeartMedia. Helped me continue bringing the
world of Greek mythology and the Ancient Mediterranean. By becoming
a patron, we get access to bonus episodes and more.
Visit patreon dot com slash Mitt's Baby, or click the
link in this episode's description. I am lib and God's
I love this shit, even if I am very happy
(40:39):
to mostly avoid Plato entirely.
Oh, hi, hello there, this is let's talk about MIT's baby,
And I am that host of yours live and well, God,
sometimes I bite off more than I can chew. Hey,
it's happening more and more the deeper I get into
the sources and the more I exhaust the more typical,
straightforward stories for myth and myth adjacent stories. And I mean,
(00:52):
I'm glad I'm going this deep, Glad I'm covering texts
like this one. But sometimes they're difficult, you know, like
the Symposium. So I set out to cover this text
because it's really important in the grand scheme of ancient Greece.
I don't normally care about the philosophers, and that's not changing,
but it has all these important historical and mythological implications,
(01:16):
and it's been referenced a few times in conversation episodes
that I've recorded lately, and so I really wanted to
dive deeper. Because God's I just did the most surface
level reading of it, of just that soulmate's bit that
one time. It's like ten minutes long, wild, so it
felt right to go into more detail this time. But
of course I forgot how tricky that could be. So
(01:39):
today I'm going to try to synthesize it a bit
more clearly, hopefully stay out of the weeds a bit
more than the part one episode, and just stick to
the bits of the stories that I think are most
relevant to my purpose. I want to talk about love
in ancient Greece. I mean really only revolves around men
in this but still I want to talk about the
the silly but interesting idea of soulmates that's presented other halves,
(02:05):
with an emphasis on again how they saw love between men,
because it's really interesting topic that truly has so much
to look at. It's fascinating. We'll get into it. I
talked a lot about though the erastes of romanos relationships
last week. I won't do it again. We're going to
turn not to dwell on the age disparities, because, like
(02:25):
I said then, while we all see it as seriously
troubling now, it was unaccepted practice back then, and there's
good evidence that the men and young men in most
of these relationships really did benefit love each other. Just generally.
It was a good thing because life was different, morality
was different, literally everything was different. It is also, particularly
(02:46):
when we're not talking about mythology it's one of the
few means through which we can look at romantic and
sexual relationships between men in ancient grace. I know there's
still a lot of debate about the topic, particularly within
the study of it, which I won't I won't weigh
in on in favor of just emphasizing that the discussions
in this dialogue at their core are in favor of
(03:07):
two men being romantically and sexually in love, and as
will come up in a future conversation. It can be
understood in some myths and sources that the reason so
many romantic relationships of myth actually end in tragedy could
be that they were not relationships that aligned with the
erastes of Romanos tradition, and therefore we're seen as kind
(03:28):
of outside of the norm. That is all to say,
those relationships will come up again in this episode, because
they were just an enormous part of the lives of
the men who are being fictionalized in this dialogue and
in Plato's world itself. Where we last left this absolutely
Banana's dinner and drinking party, a few of the men
(03:48):
gathered had already spoken about love, how they viewed the concept,
and the god and the priorities. Therein the height was
of course the discussion of Achilles and Patrickluss, where everyone
the party was in agreement that the two mythological characters
were very much in love with each other romantically. The
only question to be debated was who was the Erastes
(04:09):
and who is the Aromanos? The penetrator and the penetrated
bat though, was up for furious debate, and apparently Eschylus
was very wrong in his depiction, that is in a
very tragically lost play called the Mermidons. And then well,
then the fictional version of Aristophanes, the comedic playwright took
(04:34):
up the mantle and made it all seriously fucking weird.
I also read something right after I'd finished recording that
last episode, so I'll note it here. But apparently there
are theories that the reason Aristophanes's speech is so very ridiculous,
and we haven't even gotten into the most absurd of it,
is actually because Plato saw Aristophanes's version of Socrates in
(04:57):
his play The Clouds as having worked against the philosopher
in the court case against him, and so he chose
to make Aristophanes sound like monstrously ridiculous in this dialogue,
and I mean, given how weird this is about, you
get like I can see it. This is episode two fifteen,
(05:27):
Socrates and Alchibiides the Lovers you never knew you needed.
Plato's Symposium, Part two. Aristophanes began last week by explaining
(05:51):
that in the early days of humanity, humans looked very
different from now. They were doubled basically but also seemingly honestly,
I can't help but picture like ball shaped humans. In
any case, they had two of everything, and there were
three types, three genders, male, female, and a combination of
(06:12):
the two. But these oddly shaped humans weren't docile, and
instead they threatened the gods, threatening Olympus cartwheeling around. Even
Zeus knew he had to do something about it, but
he didn't want to wipe humans off the map. The
gods needed them to worship and to sacrifice and poor
libations to the gods, all the things humans do for
(06:34):
the deities. Instead, he determined to weaken them and their
threat by splitting them in half. And as a bonus,
it will also mean double the humans and thus double
the worship of the gods. And so Zeus cut all
the humans of Earth in two cut them as one
(06:56):
would slice an apple or a hard boiled egg. With
the help of Apollo, the newly split humans were fused
together to form what we now understand to be humanity,
with all their extra flesh and skin pulled together and
tied up. Yet the belly button very normal stuff, definitely
(07:17):
not weird and wacky as all hell. He also smoothed
wrinkles shaped chests, but left that navel so that humans
would always have a memory of what they once were.
But Aristovanus continues quote, since their original nature had been
cut into, each one longed for its own other half
(07:39):
and stayed with it. They threw their arms round each other,
weaving themselves together, wanting to form a single living thing.
He explains that they often died from hunger and lack
of movement because once they found their other halves, they
wanted to do nothing else but hold on to them.
(08:01):
Unless you think we're getting to the cute bit where
we just talk about soulmates, we now learned that up
until this point, everyone was kind of dying off because
they were so preoccupied with their other halves or and
because their genitals hadn't been rearranged along with the rest
of them. They'd been on their backs, and they hadn't
(08:22):
been able to reproduce with each other, but with the
earth itself, they were fucking the earth, just like Aristophanes,
says Cicadas. Realizing this was what his new humanity was missing,
Zeus finally rearranged them so that their genders were on
(08:45):
the front. Lucky then now, Aristophanes tells the others, when
a man met a woman, they were able to reproduce.
And he adds very specifically, quote if two males came together,
they would at least have the satisfaction of sexual intercourse
and then relax, turn to their work and think about
the other things in their life. This, we are told,
(09:07):
is how humanity came to desire one another. Romantic and
sexual desire pulls together two people in the hopes that
they are the other halves of the original humans, makes
them return to their true nature, their true selves. It
tries to form one human from two to seal the
wounds that were left when the gods split them in two.
(09:32):
Because of this, every human is always searching for this
other half of themselves, this soul mate. He explains that
men who were split from the all male gender search
for their other halves in men. Women are the same
when split from the female, and those who were split
from the human with the combined gender search for their
(09:53):
other half in the opposite gender. But well, again, this
dialogue is very gay, and thus we get the added
detail that those men who were attracted to women and
those women who were attracted to men, they're the ones
most likely to be adulterers. That's right, when the men
searching for their other half and another man are young,
(10:14):
Aristophanes says they are the best of humanity because those
who sleep with other men are the bravest. He explains
that some people say these men are shameless, but that's
not true. Quote it's not out of shamelessness that they
do this, but because they are bold, brave, and masculine
and welcome the same qualities in others. He goes so
(10:35):
far as to explain that these great men who are
only attracted to other men, would happily live that way forever,
spending their lives together in real satisfaction, and it's only
that necessity often dictates that they marry women due to
their general societal convention and the need to procreate. Aristophanes
(10:57):
details that those people who find their trueth who other haves,
which is of course a very rare thing. Most spend
their time with others of the gender of their true half,
but not necessarily that exact person unless they're just that lucky.
But when they are that lucky, they spend their entire
lives together and wish, though they don't even entirely understand
(11:19):
why themselves, that they could be one person with their
other half fused together for eternity, living and dying together.
And that's why, he says, quote love is the name
for the desire and pursuit of wholeness. This and the
threat that if humans aren't good enough to the gods
(11:42):
they could be further split from themselves is why humans
worship the gods as they do, and why love the
god and the concept is the leader of everyone. Quote.
If we are friends of the God and have him
on our side, we shall do what few people now
do do find and become close to the loved ones
(12:03):
that are really our own. Aristophanes clarifies to that that
he doesn't want the men listening to think he's only
trying for comedy, or that he's speaking only to Pausanias
and Agathon, who where to understand have been committed in
relasting relationships, either with each other or just other men,
(12:24):
I'm unclear. He emphasizes that they are cut from the
all male original form finding love and attraction in other men.
But regardless of this, he wants to make sure it's
clear he's referring to everyone, regardless of their gender or
the gender they're attracted to, and that quote, our human
race can only achieve happiness if love reaches its conclusion
(12:46):
and each of us finds his loved one and restores
his original nature. With his speech over, Aristophanes once again
(13:12):
reminds Eric Simmachus as the doctor in the room, that
he isn't trying for comedy, even if it sounds like
he is. He's quite serious what that means for Aristophanes
as a real person and Plato and Plato's thoughts on
Aristophanes is a bit less certain regardless the dialogue, and
we are moving on to the last two official speeches.
(13:34):
Agathon is up first and then Socrates himself. Agathon gets
a little nervous. Socrates implies that he's going to have
an amazing speech and that the philosopher isn't thrilled about
having to follow it up. They speak of Agathon as
a tragedian, as this dialogue takes place shortly after he's
won the Dinysia, and Socrates emphasizes the confidence that he
(13:58):
had on the stage and and thus he shouldn't feel
any differently now. Finally, Agathon is convinced to begin. He
wants to speak of love as the god, as the
concept itself, noting that the others have focused their speeches
on the things humans get from love rather than on
love himself. That's where Agathon comes in. He also says that,
(14:23):
contrary to what's already been said in favor of the god,
he doesn't believe that Aro's Love is the oldest of
the gods, instead that he's the youngest, that he is
the youngest, and that he runs from old age, flees
from it, avoids aging at all, and is the most
youthful and beautiful of all the gods. That is Agathon's argument.
(14:47):
He knows this because he says, all of the things
the gods did in those earliest days of the world,
as people like Heasy had recorded, they wouldn't have been possible,
They wouldn't have happened if had been there quote, the
gods would not have castrated or imprisoned each other or
done those many acts of violence. If love had been
(15:10):
among them, there would have been friendship and peace between them,
as there is now and has been since Love began
to rule among the gods. Agathon says that Love lives
amongst the most sensitive of humans because he is himself
a sensitive god. That he finds the softest minds and
(15:31):
characters and avoids those who are hard and tough. He
speaks of the shape of arrows, that he himself is
soft and pliable. That's how he manages to get so
deep into the minds and characters of humans. That he
is soft and beautiful and spends his time amongst the flowers.
That avoids things and people who aren't the same, who've
(15:53):
lost their bloom. Is that implying that old or less
than beautiful people won't find love? Assume not. With discussion
of Aros's appearance and beauty out of the way, he's
moving on to discuss the god's virtue and God's Is
he virtuous? Agathon says that Love never does anything that
(16:15):
could be seen as an injustice, and that no injustices
are committed on him. He says that love is never forced,
and thus nothing is forced on him. Quote. When love
does anything, he doesn't use force. Since everyone consents to
all Love's orders and whatever is agreed by mutual consent,
that is what laws the sovereignty of the city define
(16:38):
as just. Love is courageous too, Agathon explains, not even
Aries could stand up to love, even he bowed to
Aphrodite and what she represents. And since Aris is the
bravest of all others, love must be the bravest of everyone.
Of course, love is also wise. And yes, now it's
(17:00):
sounds a bit like that bit of the Bible that
they read it weddings. I'm assuming it's the Bible. Love
is patient, you know, whatever you get it anyway, Agathon
says that love is wise, and he's going to explain
why love is such a great poet that when someone
is touched by love, even if he's never once been
inspired by the muses in the past, he will himself
(17:20):
become one of the greatest poets of all time. He
links love Arros to many of the most important of gods,
connecting the rules of Apollo, Hephistus, Athena, and even Zeus
to Aros because everything they are in charge of ultimately
is inspired by love and his wisdom. Love led Apollo
(17:42):
to discover archery and music and so much more. The
inspired Hephaistus to discover metalwork. The list goes on, and
it always comes back to love. Agathon continues to espouse
the wonders that he sees as love, listing everything he
can imagine, and finishing with quote for the whole company
(18:04):
of gods and humans, most beautiful and best of leaders.
Every man should follow him, singing beautiful hymns of praise,
sharing the song he sings to charm the mind of
every god and human. Agathon's speech is met with applause
and cheers. He's impressed the group, though no one is surprised.
(18:27):
He's the tragedian among them, after all, the poet, and
they're celebrating his win at the Dionysia in the first place.
He was always going to have a great speech. Socrates
then turns to Eric Simachus and asks whether his earlier
nerves at having to follow Agathon were unfounded after all.
But Noah, But still He's told that while Agathon certainly
(18:51):
spoke just as well as Socrates imagined he would, he
certainly he Socrates certainly won't be lost for words. He's Socrates,
after all, and so it's time for the philosopher to
speak in true Socrates fashion. And yes, most of my
knowledge of Socrates is utter bullshit and comes entirely from
(19:12):
Assassin's creed Odyssey. I am, after all, an expert in mythology,
not philosophy, regardless, and what I will trust is true
Socrates fashion. He starts his speech by explaining that he
thought he understood the parameters of what they were doing
and speaking of love, but in fact, it turns out
he was wrong. After all, he sees, now having listened
(19:33):
to everyone else present their thoughts, that it isn't about
telling the truth of the topic, finding the best features
and presenting them in a way that makes love look
the best and truthful. But instead he's learned he should
quote claim that your subject has the great and finest qualities,
whether it really does or not. And if what you
say isn't true, it doesn't matter very much. Shots fired Socrates.
(20:00):
He goes further, suggesting that they all basically just said
what they thought they should, keeping love happy, but he's
not about to follow their lead. Instead, he says he's
going to tell the truth. He asks, though, whether Fidris,
who's the one who started the whole call for speeches,
even wants to hear what he has to say now
that he's announced that his only intention is to tell
(20:21):
the truth in whatever words come to him. But yes,
they want to hear it, and so he starts by
asking whether it's okay if he begins asking Agathon questions
it is. Socrates launches into a debate with Agathon, pushing
him on what he's included in his own speech, asking
him questions and follow ups based on Agathon's responses. This
(20:44):
bit of the symposium is the most Socrates like bit,
and thus the most reminiscent of most of Plato's dialogues,
because Socrates so often features to nudge other speakers to
question them and push back, letting Plato's own philosophy guide
the conversations through who Socrates is questioning. Essentially, he questions
the nature of love as Agathon described it, requiring beauty
(21:07):
and desire, and eventually getting Agathon to agree that in
order to desire something, one mustn't have it to begin with. Then, thus,
if someone is desiring beauty, they must be ugly. And
then because if this is true. The same applies to goodness,
and so ultimately this means that love, both the God
and the concept is neither beautiful nor good. There's so
(21:33):
much more to it, but frankly, trying to turn this
very Socratic debate into a narrative that I and thus
you all can understand is not my strong suit. I'm
doing my best, and I know sometimes that's frustrating. I've
had people question lately why I do episodes on things
like this when it is not my specialty, and because
I don't understand the philosophers particularly well or Plato's writing,
And honestly, I mean like I do it because I
(21:54):
think much of the symposium is something I can speak
to and share with you all, and it's important and
sometimes my show is your access point to everything. And
even if that means that there are bits like these
where I just tell you what I can and suggest
you read it on your own if you're interested, I
don't really see any less value in these episodes, but
I will just say reading this that yes, it seems
(22:15):
like Seven's Great Odyssey does an amazing job of presenting
at least the Platonic idea of Socrates. Because few he's
a bit insufferable back to him. Having proven Agathon wrong
in his own speech, Socrates explains that now he's going
to tell them all about a conversation he once had
with a woman named Diotima, who was herself so impressive
(22:39):
that she once kept Athens from plague for ten years,
having told them how to sacrifice in order to achieve this,
so you know, she's a fancy lady. He also explains
that this conversation he had with her resulted much the
same as the one he just had with Agathon, except
that it was Diotima who played the role of Socrates,
questioning his his own ideal of the god of love
(23:02):
and beauty and goodness, until she proved much the same
thing that Socrates just proved to Agathon. She takes it further, though,
proving through similar arguments that in fact, love isn't a
god at all, but a damon, a kind of spirit,
something in between a human and a god, whose function
is to quote, interpret, and carry messages from humans to
(23:25):
gods and from gods to humans. They convey prayers and
sacrifice from humans, and commands and gifts in return for
sacrifices from gods. These spirits, and love as one of them,
she told Socrates, is the intermediary. They fill the gaps
between the humans and gods and allow the universe to
(23:46):
then function as a whole. Dootim presents a whole new
(24:18):
idea of love. Obviously, through this idea of a spirit
rather than a god, she also presents a new birth story,
one that takes place at a celebration of Aphrodite's birth,
but where Aros is not her child nor a primordial
being at all. Instead, he's the child of resource and
poverty and became an attendant of Aphrodite purely because he
(24:40):
was conceived and born at a party for her. But
this version of love is poor and ugly and has
nowhere to live. That is the true nature of this
form of love. And in mind, he is somewhere between
wisdom and ignorance, but constantly seeking more. Basically, he's a
philosopher seeking further knowledge understanding. Through this recounted conversation between
(25:04):
Diotima and Socrates, we learn the idea of this very
different form of love, and the idea that beauty isn't
the end goal as it seemed from the earlier speeches,
but instead it's a means of reaching the end goal.
She shifts the idea of beauty into that of good being,
that humans see good things rather than beautiful things, with
(25:27):
the result of such ownership being a general happiness contentedness
in humans. She then connects all of this to the
idea of reproduction, but as I understand it, which frankly,
it is very difficult to understand, because my brain just
does not work well with this kind of philosophy. Reproduction
here is referring to kind of everything, or rather everything
(25:49):
that can be created produced from the basic idea of
human reproduction, children, to art and wisdom and knowledge, generally virtue,
thing that can be created by mind or body. She
goes on to return to the characters that we've heard
of before, people like Alchists who died for Admetus and Achilles,
(26:10):
who died because Patrickliss had died, and Diotima asks Socrates
if if these two would still have given their lives
for their significant others, if they'd known that they wouldn't
get anything out of it, that they wouldn't be remembered
for it, or seen as brave and virtuous, whatever it
might have been that they got for their actions, If
(26:31):
those things had been off the table, would either have
still sacrificed themselves. No, she says, it's immortality that they
were actually seeking. This then gets connected more specifically to
those that are called pregnant in mind, their relationships with
others being unrelated to sex and instead inspiration their children
(26:55):
being their work. She even notes poets like Hesiod and
Homer who people are so because of the types of
children they produced, their children being their art, their poems,
which are immortal. Her argument is about beauty and love,
but also an attempt to separate those things from romance
and sex, seeking both in the mind rather than the body.
(27:19):
She speaks of sexual love of men and their boyfriends,
of everything that's already been discussed in the rest of
the symposium, but instead emphasizes the importance of beauty and
love in the mind and what that can produce, rather
than the physical and God's I'm hoping I've correctly explained
what is happening in this section, because it turns out,
again my brain does not meld well with the way
(27:42):
Plato forms his arguments, and I'm instead I'm used to
reading his storytelling bits rather than things like this. I
have done my best Socrates finishes his story of Geotima
and his speech by explaining that the men assembled there
listening could take it as a speech in favor of
love the rest of them, or they could take it
as a speech of whatever else. He doesn't much care,
(28:05):
just that he was able to make his points. And
then Aristophanes tries to speak about something. He wants to
argue a point maybe or defend himself since his speech
came up amongst Socrates is but they're all interrupted by
a very drunk Alchebides. There's a loud, almost frantic, but
(28:47):
certainly excessive knocking at the door that interrupts the men
as they attempted to continue to speak of love of
their own speeches. Agathon calls to one of his enslaved
people to go to the door and see who it is,
and moments later it is this very drunk and rowdy
Alchebyides who's brought in to the group. He hadn't been
(29:09):
there before, but is crashing the party. Now he's not alone,
but he's like a little group of partiers with him,
and on his arm, he's got a flute girl, or
rather she's kind of holding him up as he demands
to see Agathon. He appears, and he's wearing a garland
of ivy and violets. He's got ribbons all over his head.
He's truly decked out, and he says, quote, good evening, gentlemen.
(29:33):
Will you let someone who's drunk, very drunk, join your symposium?
Or should we just put a garland on Agathon? Which
is why we've come and go away. He's arrived intending
to celebrate Agathon, bringing him garlands and ribbons in honor
of his win at the Dionysia, and he announces that
this means the Dagathon is officially the wisest and most beautiful.
(29:57):
They all welcome Alcybyides, happy have the oh so drunk
and ridiculous man join their party. It isn't as though
they haven't been drinking the entire time too. Alcibiades comes in,
making himself comfortable, but the ribbons he's had on his
head they've covered his vision a bit, and so when
he sits down and gets all comfy without not actually
(30:19):
noticing that though Agathon is on one side of him,
it's actually Socrates who's there on the other side. And
when he finally sees a Socrates He's startled, suggesting that
the philosopher has been there lying in wait. He adds, quote,
why did you choose this couch? I see you didn't
pick Aristophanes or anyone else who's prepared to make a
(30:40):
fool of himself, but you made sure you'd be lying
beside the most attractive man in the room. He's jealous,
it seems, Socrates is sitting next to the haughtie that
is Agathon, to which Socrates replies asking for Agathon's help,
saying that Alchiviiides is such a nuisance, and that specific
it's actually his own love for Alchabyides that's caused it,
(31:04):
that causes him such grief that it has ever since
he started loving Alcabiides, He says, quote, I haven't been
able to look or talk to a single attractive man
without his getting so jealous and resentful that he goes
crazy and shouts at me and almost beats me up. God,
this is getting fun, isn't it. These two? Huh. Now,
(31:28):
we don't know for sure, but Plato certainly seems to
suggest that these two are lovers or were at some
point both were married. But it's a great example of
how these things were, and by lovers we do mean
Erastes orramanos whatever that means everything that's been talked about
in this emposium itself. You know, Socrates was alchabiides teacher,
(31:49):
he sees elder, so they had a relationship. And once
these two men get past their little little drama, Alcabiides
announces that it's quite obvious that the rest of them
are not merely drunk enough, and he elects himself to
be their master of ceremonies, or rather just the one
to push them all to drink a lot more. He
calls for more wine to be brought in, and he
(32:10):
nudges them all to drink up, though he notes that
it won't work for Socrates. He can drink so much
without ever seeming drunk. Seems very Socrates like, if you
ask me, Eric Simmachus eventually points out, like Alkipiides, are
you not gonna contribute at all other than your drunkenness?
So explains what they've been doing that night, and he
(32:30):
asks Alcibiides for his own take on love. But Alkibides
doesn't really think this is fair having someone as drunk
as he is compete with the others, and anyway, He says,
everything Socrates just said about me was bullshit, and it's
the other way around. It's it's Alkibiides, who can't speak
to other men without Socrates getting jealous. Gods, I love
(32:51):
these two together. They are ridiculous. They begin arguing about it,
with Alchebiides saying things like, quote Bipusoseidon, don't contradict me
on this point. And so at this Eric Simachus has
the idea that Alcopianites shouldn't give a speech on love
like the rest of them, but instead a speech on Socrates,
(33:15):
and he will, oh, he will. He begins by comparing
Socrates to statues of Silenus, which were ugly and hollow
and had little statues of other gods inside. But then
he compares him to satyrs, which were known for their
sexual appetite and often shown with enormous erections. So you know,
take what you want from that. He speaks about Socrates
(33:36):
and how he affects him, how listening to him speak
has a kind of frenzied effect on him, how it
consumes him and keeps him from thinking of anything else
beyond questioning whether his life is even worth anything at all.
He explains that it's only in Socrates's presence that he's
ever capable of feeling shame that he he can't argue
(33:57):
anything with him, that'll always just do what ever Socrates
asks of him. He talks about how he sometimes wishes
Socrates was gone from the world, but then in the
same moment, he knows he wouldn't be able to deal
with the loss of him. He talks about Socrates being
drawn to young, beautiful men and being unable to tear
(34:18):
himself away from them. He talks of Socrates messing with people,
playing with them, once again connecting him to the God's side.
Lenus the statues full of little gold statues, How he
once saw those those little gold things within Socrates and
thought he'd never seen anything so beautiful. He then goes
on to explain it in great detail, how often he
(34:40):
thought that his relationship with Socrates would would turn sexual,
how much he wanted it, how often he wanted it
to happen. He he thought it would that they would,
they would certainly get sexy. He wanted it so bad,
and every time nothing. Finally, he says he had to
take things, would do his own hands, though it should
(35:02):
have been the other way around. He had to decide
to play the role of the erastes as if it
were Socrates who was the arominous, the younger one. So
he invited Socrates to dinner, and after dinner, Socrates settled
in to stay the night. But when they got to talking,
Alchabiides came to the conclusion that Socrates just made him
(35:24):
feel like he just wanted to be a better person,
and that he was the Socrates was the best person
to help him get there. Socrates, though among other things,
doesn't agree with that point, and he doesn't see how
he could help Alcibiides. But Alcibiides essentially says that regardless,
he's gonna continue as he said he's he's gonna let
(35:45):
Socrates determine what's best for him, let him guide him
to be a better man. And then that night they
just cuddled up and they went to sleep next to
each other, but there was still no sexy Times quote.
Then I threw my arms around this really godlike an
amazing man, and lay there with him all night long,
(36:06):
and again I say I love them Alcibiides, though, he
says that when he woke up, he was embarrassed and
he felt that his really astounding his famous even good looks.
They had failed him. They hadn't moved Socrates to make
their relationship sexual. He moves on, though, as best he can,
(36:29):
as he talks about their their long lasting relationship, and
he goes on to describe when they served in the
same battle in a war and how amazing and valorous
Socrates was. Then he sings Socrates his praises before returning
to the lover of it all and noting that this
is something Socrates has done before to others, essentially taking
(36:51):
on an a romanos relationship but never letting it turn
to sex. Alcibiides is particularly frustrated by this, but it
seems just the nature of Socrates, and this is the
case for these erastes ramenos. They weren't always sexual, and
certainly theirs is a good example of the erominos very
(37:12):
much wishing the erastes would turn it sexual. This, it seems,
is intentionally. It's pulling back to Socrates's speech earlier when
he also spoke about love and relationships, but friendships without
sexual aspects. Now. I won't try to explain the full
details here, but essentially this moment in the symposium is
(37:35):
getting to the idea of platonic love as we think
of it, much to Alchebiid's dismay, and with Alchabyides finished
in his speech, they they all start to sort of
bug him, nudge him about it. Agathon even decides he's
gonna taunt him by lying down on the other side
(37:56):
of Socrates, since Alchabides had so specific lane between them
to keep the man away from Socrates. And once again,
poor Alchabyeides has to say, quote, oh Zeus, what I
suffer from this person? But he does in the end,
he lets Agathon lie between them instead, the best of
(38:17):
both worlds. They all spent the night there in Agathon's
home after their drunken night of revelry and wild speeches,
and in the morning, you know, some of them had
left and others got stuck debating with Socrates all over again. Uh, Herds,
(38:53):
thank you so much for listening. That was so much
wild that I expected. Honestly, I didn't really know what
I was getting myself into when covering this dialogue after
last week's episode. I also got a bit worried that
I was gonna fuck it up. But I'm pretty happy
with this because God's is Zakabidi's fun and all other
discussions are fascinating for so many different reasons, the biggest
of all being like, what is Plato actually saying? A
(39:15):
question I will not remotely try to answer? But you
all can have a think about it and read the
symposium for yourselves if you so desire. In the meantime,
this was very fun and God's is it all about
how awesome it is to be a man in love
with another man? That's really what it seems to come
down to the whole thing. I don't have a five
(39:35):
star review to read today. I've had to pull too
many because of how many episodes I've had to prepare
and advance of my trip to Greece. And while I've
only gotten a couple of meh not five star reviews
in the past day or two. So here we are,
we're going without. This episode is long enough anyway, and
it's so long, and my brain is so much that
(39:56):
I typed love instead of long because of how many
times I typed the word loved. But thank you all
for listening, and hey, maybe leave me a five star
review if you'd like. Thank you. Let's talk of MIT's Baby,
as written produced by me live. Albert MICHAELA. Smith is
the Hermes and my Olympians. She is the best. She
pulled a bunch of articles for this, a lot of
which I didn't have time to read fully, but I
love her for it anyway. Stephanie Foley works to transcribe
(40:17):
the podcast for YouTube captions and accessibility. The podcast is
hosted and montae by iHeartMedia. Helped me continue bringing the
world of Greek mythology and the Ancient Mediterranean. By becoming
a patron, we get access to bonus episodes and more.
Visit patreon dot com slash Mitt's Baby, or click the
link in this episode's description. I am lib and God's
I love this shit, even if I am very happy
(40:39):
to mostly avoid Plato entirely.
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