December 10, 2024 • 42 mins
When you’re early in your career, you might not be able to recognize the signs of a toxic workplace. Like yes, yelling and bullying are obviously not okay, but what about subtler signals? And if you are working in a toxic environment, who can you turn to for help? In this episode, Gianna and Jamé chat with employee relations expert Kayla Moncayo about how to navigate these situations.
Do you have any burning questions about work? We want to hear them! You can email us your questions at letstalkoffline@linkedin.com.
And thank you to Kayla Moncayo for joining us this week! Follow Kayla on LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/kaylamoncayo/).
For more, follow Gianna (http://linkedin.com/in/giannaprudente) and Jamé (http://linkedin.com/in/jamejackson) on LinkedIn and subscribe to Gianna’s weekly newsletter: https://linkedin.com/letstalkoffline.
Credits
Gianna Prudente - Co-host, Early Career Development Editor, LinkedIn
Jamé Jackson - Co-host, Community Manager, LinkedIn
Sabrina Fang - Producer, Western Sound
Maya Pope-Chappell - Director of Content & Audience Development, LinkedIn
Jessi Hempel - Chief Content Officer, LinkedIn
Savannah Wright - Senior Producer, Western Sound
Sarah Dealy - Associate Producer, Western Sound
Alex MacInnis - Engineer, Western Sound
Courtney Coupe - Head of Original Programming, LinkedIn
Dan Roth - Editor in Chief, LinkedIn
Ben Adair - Executive Producer, Western Sound
Katrina Norvell - Executive Producer, iHeartMedia
Nikke Ettore - Executive Producer, iHeartMedia
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
LinkedIn News.
Speaker 2 (00:05):
There have been times I've gone home and I've told
my mom about some of the things that I'm going through,
and it's not like she's just like, you know, put
your big girl panties on and keep going. But she's
just like, honey, if you had seen what they used
to put us through in the seventies and eighties, you
would think that this is a joy walk. And I'm like,
we don't reward trauma with less trauma. We reward trauma
with healing. Mommy. That was beautiful.
Speaker 3 (00:28):
From LinkedIn News and I heard podcasts. This is Let's
Talk Offline, a show about what it takes to thrive
in the early years of your career without sacrificing your values,
sanity or sleep.
Speaker 2 (00:40):
I'm Gianni Predente and I'm Jamaie Jackson Gadson. Now, look, y'all,
everyone deserves to work in an environment where they feel safe,
supported and heard. But unfortunately, I mean, that's just not
always the case. There might be moments in your career
where you find yourself in what we call a toxic workplace,
and I mean it could manifest itself in the most
(01:00):
obvious ways, like bullying or even favoritism or in.
Speaker 3 (01:05):
More subtle ways that might even feel kind of normal,
like office gossip or feeling burnt out all the time.
And when you're early in your career, possibly working your
first job, you might not even know what a toxic
work environment looks like until you're.
Speaker 2 (01:21):
Out of it.
Speaker 3 (01:21):
So we're going to break down how to recognize the
signs of an unhealthy workplace and how to navigate it. So,
if you guys have been listening to the show for
some time now, you know one of Jamie's favorite analogies
when it comes to jobs is dating delicious. So to
use that analogy, you know, you could be in a
(01:43):
toxic relationship and not even know it until you get
into a more loving relationship. I know some of you
guys are like, yeah, I've been there, and at that
point you realize like, oh, this is how it's supposed
to be. The same thing comes to jobs, right when
you're early in your career and you don't have a
lot of experience, you're in that first role and you
(02:04):
kind of just take this as like the norm, right,
you have nothing to compare that first job too, so
you don't know what a toxic environment really looks like
until you're outside of it, or somebody externally is like, hmm,
something fishy is going.
Speaker 2 (02:19):
On, something fish around here.
Speaker 3 (02:22):
You like quite literally don't know any better until you
move on. So later in the show, we're going to
bring on an employee relation specialist, Kayla Moncayo, to talk
about how to identify a toxic work situation and how
to navigate it. But first, Yeah, Jimmy.
Speaker 2 (02:38):
I think we need to kind of like set the
standard of what a toxic work environment. Let's get some
definitions out here. Yeah, so, what exactly is a toxic
work environment? Point blank period. It is a negative environment
where employees might feel unsafe or uncomfortable, and I mean
it's going to obviously lead to the things that we've
talked about before, like stress, anxiety, even depression. I mean, honestly,
(02:58):
super toxic work environments can get really really sticky, very quickly.
And sometimes it can be caused by one person. It
can be caused by a team, It can be caused
by a department, It can be caused by the whole
darn thing, all right. It really can come a number
of different ways from a number of different places. But
what I think it's really important to call out is
that it can feel really hard to know whether you're
(03:21):
in that toxic workplace or not, to your point, because
you might just assume that everything that's happening to you
is super normal. Girl, I can talk about that all
day long, but I think what's going to be helpful
is thinking of some obvious examples. So some obvious examples
of a toxic work environment would be you experiencing things
such as bullying or harassment at work, but things that
(03:43):
may not be as obvious but are still I think
in the category of toxic work environments are things such as,
you know, you having a team who doesn't respect your boundaries,
you feeling like your voice isn't being heard, you being
overworked to the point that it's intruding on your work
life balance, and so many other different things. And so obviously,
again some of these can just be the team or
(04:07):
the work culture, but that does not negate the fact
that it can still be toxic and toxic for you.
Speaker 3 (04:12):
Yeah. Yeah, I appreciate you bringing up kind of the
less obvious signs because I feel like in TV shows
we see like these toxic workplaces and it's like crazy,
and maybe that is the experience you're having so hopefully
you know, this episode helps you. But I feel like
a lot of times it's smaller scale and you're kind
of just like sitting around being like hmmm, like something's off.
(04:36):
When you're early, You're like, who do I go to?
Like do I bring this up? Is this worth mentioning?
Do I just kind of suck it up and like
deal with it?
Speaker 2 (04:43):
And what I really appreciate is that gen Z is
asking the questions, because I will say, as Millennials, it's
not that we didn't ask. I think we just had
to sort of accept our lot.
Speaker 3 (04:52):
It was like put your head down and word, yes,
do it.
Speaker 2 (04:55):
And the thing is is because we had parents who
were going through even worse things, you know. I mean
like there have been times I've gone home and I've
told my mom about some of the things that I'm
going through, and it's not like she's just like, you know,
put your big girl panties on and keep going. But
she's just like, honey, if you had seen what they
used to put us through in the seventies and eighties,
you would think that this is a joy walk. And
I'm like, we don't reward trauma with less trauma. We
(05:16):
reward trauma with healing. Mommy, that was beautiful, But it's true,
you know, and I think it is a generational thing.
But what I'm hoping people take from this conversation is
that wherever you are, you have the power to ask
yourself is this toxic for me? And if it is,
how do I equip myself to move on? But gee,
let me ask you, have you ever been in a
(05:38):
toxic work environment? I mean, the first thing I'm thinking
of is the ice cream shot, but ice cream job.
Speaker 3 (05:43):
Yeah, you guys already know if you listened to like
our first episode, I was you know, what would I say?
I was like, Yeah, they just took advantage of me there,
that was a crazy Yeah, they exploited me when.
Speaker 2 (05:54):
I was looking for it.
Speaker 3 (05:56):
Well, you guys know, this is my first job, and
this isn't going to be a tell all on LinkedIn
and the toxicity. Now, I honestly haven't really experienced a
toxic work environment, and I'm very fortunate for that. I
think I have definitely seen other people endure a toxic
work environment. And the way I kind of know that
is my friends or family will tell me about the
(06:20):
way their bosses or the colleagues are and how work
is you know, unevenly distributed or favoritism stuff like that,
And I'm like, hmmm, like they say it normal and
I'm like, wait, that would like so not fly on
my team, right, So it makes me think like, oh,
you know, you guys might be in that type of situation.
And some people, a lot of people I know actually
(06:41):
who have been in jobs that they were just completely
overworked and it was toxic have left and now they are,
you know, finding their greener pastures.
Speaker 2 (06:52):
Their cortisol levels are probably so much a little puffy
face for them.
Speaker 3 (06:55):
Oh my god. Even though I haven't been in a
toxic work environment, my cortisol levels are the roof.
Speaker 2 (07:00):
But we're working on it different systems.
Speaker 3 (07:04):
But what about you, Like, have you experienced a toxic
workplace before.
Speaker 2 (07:09):
My confessional, Yeah, I've I've actually been in multiple toxic
work environments. But I think what will help, as I
sort of lay the groundwork here, is to first acknowledge that,
particularly for people of color, marginalized communities, and specifically black women,
when we raise our hand and we tell people that
things are happening, people don't want to believe us. This
(07:31):
is a larger conversation, we can talk about society and
culture and the expectation of people just carrying things being
that quote unquote strong black woman trop right. What I
think will be helpful is me also bringing in the
stats here to show like, this is not just a
jam experience, this is it. So what I'm gonna do
is I'm gonna share some stats from some credible sources,
and I'm also gonna then share some experiences that I've had.
(07:54):
Let's get let's get locked and loaded. Okay, let's let's
tighten up the bra So lean In, which if you
guys are not familiar of lean and Leanin as a
women's advocacy nonprofit, they did a survey a couple of
years ago looking at the experiences of black women in
the workforce. And here's a couple of things that they found.
Black women are facing disproportionately high barriers in the workplace.
(08:17):
They're heavily impacted by bias and hiring and promotions. Another
thing that Leanin found was that black women are promoted
as significantly lower rate than white women at the first
step up to manager. So it's not even that we're
not being promoted, we're also not being promoted into leadership
opportunities that you might obviously come with more money. I've
(08:38):
certainly been in situations like this before where there's always
been this idea of readiness. But then it's interesting because
then one thing that people fail to think about is, Okay, well,
what happens then when you are promoted as a manager,
as a black woman, how are you protected? Like I
have been thrown to the wolves before of trying to
figure out how to navigate certain conversations, how to do things.
(08:59):
And this is out of just standard first time management.
I mean, and I've actually had people report to me
and before who did not want to report to a
black woman whoa yes like and have said like they
don't feel comfortable reporting to people who they can't relate to,
And I was like, oh, okay, so well what do
you mean by that? Yeah, it's interesting because Lena also
(09:21):
says that black women are less likely than white women
to say that their managers give them chances to manage
people in projects, provide opportunities to showcase their work, or
help them navigate organizational politics. It's a lot because you're
trying to navigate these politics, first of all, as a
woman in corporate America. But then also when you have
additional layers in that you're trying to figure out, Okay,
(09:42):
well how do I create allies? And unfortunately a lot
of people will just be like, oh, well, you just
have to figure it out. This one is one that
really really touched me. And this is like sort of
like the biggest one I think when I've been thinking
about my career in like the toxic work environments I've
been in. They've also shared that, you know, black women
experience more microaggressions than other groups of women, and we're
(10:02):
also three to four times as likely as white women
to be subjected to disrespectful and quote unquote othering comments
and behavior. I have dealt with this in my career
many times. I mean I've had people ask me is
my hair real? I have you know, at some point
I've worn certain clothes in the office and they're like, well,
how can you afford that? You know, I've had people
(10:23):
before say things like oh, you're you're so educated, or
you sound so smart for a black girl. Like people
have said some wild af things. And it's interesting because
when I was younger, I used to obviously just get
very offended and angry about this, like what is it
about being an educated black woman that people can't conceptualize?
(10:44):
And I soon learned that, you know, there's so many
things to blame for that society, media, cultural, you know, literacy,
like just people being exposed to things. But I soon
learned that it was their own incompetence and ignorance that
really kind of of then they would put back on
me to sort of like say, like, oh, I didn't
know that a black girl could have a master's degree
(11:07):
or that she could carry herself in these worlds. It's
frustrating that you have to be two, three, four times
as good to even just get a fraction of the respect.
When I was younger, I couldn't leave toxic work environments.
I had to figure out how to pay rent. Yeah,
and the only times that I felt empowered to do
that usually is when I had another job lined up.
There have been jobs I've left because it was taking
(11:28):
such a toll on my mental health. I was going
to the hospital because I was having such terrible panic attacks,
and even like I won't say how recently, but I've
even had to over the last couple of years figure out,
like this job is not going to kill me. And
that is the sad reality of what you have to
ask yourself when you get in toxic work about how
much are you willing to take? And nobody can really
(11:51):
tell you that. But I do want you to know,
anyone who is listening to this episode that if you
are hearing anything that I'm saying and you're like, wow,
this kind of feels like what I'm feeling or I
feel seen in this, I want you to know that
you have two work besties, Gihn and I who are
going to stand with you and we're going to help
(12:13):
make sure that you have all the resource. I'm getting emotional,
it's it's such a sucky thing, but I really hope
that you know, at the end of the day, you
choose you, because that's really all you have to do.
Speaker 3 (12:29):
Look, these are really tough conversations. Luckily we're bringing in
employee relations expert Kayla Manco to talk about what you
can do if you're facing a toxic work situation. That's
after the break.
Speaker 2 (12:48):
So a toxic workforce, sometimes I think, is not as
black and white as we wanted to see. So this
week G and I are bringing in another heavy hitter,
someone who's going to talk to us all about toxic
workforces and hopefully how we can avoid them or navigate them. Giana,
who do we have this week? Today?
Speaker 3 (13:08):
We're chatting with Kayla macaio. She's the founder of Let
there BEHR, a human resources consulting firm dedicated to supporting
employees and HR professionals. Kayla is an employee relations expert
with over thirteen years of experience working in human resources. So,
you guys, she has seen it all. She's helped guide
employees through toxic work environments, and we're so excited to
(13:29):
have her on today to share all those insights. Kayla,
Welcome to the show.
Speaker 1 (13:33):
Hey Kyle, Hi, thank you so much for having me.
Speaker 2 (13:36):
Kayla, we are so excited to have you. So I'm
going to start this conversation off by talking about what
a toxic work environment is versus a hostile one. Can
you help us explain the difference.
Speaker 4 (13:50):
Yeah, So they're different in a couple ways, but sometimes
one leads to the other. So a hostile work environment
is actually a legal term, right. It's a space where
you can sue your employer because of the environment. And
typically speaking, a hostile work environment says you are unable
to perform your job duties because you're being harassed or
(14:12):
discriminated against. And a lot of the times hostile work
environment has to center around what we call a protected class.
Are you being harassed or discriminated against because of your gender,
your sexual orientation, race, etc. A toxic work environment, though,
is a little bit different in that number one can't
sue your employer for a toxic work environment doesn't mean
(14:33):
it's not as awful as a hostile It just means
that our laws haven't caught up, right. But a toxic
work environment typically centers around bullying dysfunction, just like really
bad vibes that absolutely impact your mental health. And so
we're looking toxic wise at that dysfunction and certainly at
the bullying and just kind of mean girl things that
(14:56):
tend to happen.
Speaker 3 (14:57):
You mentioned a few signs of a toxic workplace, like
one being bullying, which I think if you're in that environment,
you're like, Okay, that's pretty obvious. But I'm sure there
are a lot of less obvious signs that you kind
of think are normal until you leave or somebody external
says that should not be happening. So what are some
less obvious signs of a toxic workplace.
Speaker 4 (15:20):
Yeah, what I want to let anybody entering the workforce
know is the way you feel is important. So if
you are feeling like I'm nervous to get to work
every day, not because the work is challenging, but because
i don't know how I'm going to be treated, just
lean into that, I think.
Speaker 1 (15:40):
Just trust that.
Speaker 4 (15:41):
But some of those subtle signs that tend to come
as a feeling are going to be Are you being
spoken to in a condescending way on a regular basis,
that's a big one. Another sign of a toxic work
environment is a cliche, but their clicks.
Speaker 1 (15:58):
Now, let me be clear.
Speaker 4 (15:59):
I think that's really important to have certain social groups
at work, But when they start to create an identity
around bullying or bullying type behavior, that's another subtle sign.
The last one I'll say that I think is really
really important is the types of relationships within the hierarchy.
The way in which the layers in your hierarchy, if
(16:23):
you have them are communicating, whether they're short in their
emails or you know, their slack messages or team messages
feel harsh, that is another really subtle way of not
just the environment, but what you're going to continue to experience.
You might have a great boss, but your boss's boss
might be a total jerk, and that's still a toxic
(16:43):
work environment.
Speaker 3 (16:44):
Yeah, you know, you mentioned like maybe you're going to
work and you're feeling nervous and you get there and
maybe it's like a little clique and maybe you even
see outright bullying when you're early in your career. I
can imagine I would kind of be observed and being like, Okay,
it's anybody else seeing this? Like who should you be
turning to if you're starting to pick up on these signs?
Speaker 4 (17:07):
I think that depends on ashing things. The first thing
I'll say is someone who's been in HR for as
long as I have is HR is not always your friend.
So I'm always really hesitant to say turn to HR
if you're noticing these things, because I think, unfortunately that's
a company by company basis. The hope is that you
can go to your manager, to your boss. If you
can't go to your manager or your boss though, and
(17:28):
HR isn't an option, or you don't trust HR, I
think it's really really important that you have some sort
of communication with somebody that's outside of the organization. So
whether it's a friend or a loved one, a partner,
it's important that you talk to somebody that isn't face
to face and say, hey, here's what I'm experiencing.
Speaker 1 (17:48):
Is this normal?
Speaker 4 (17:50):
When you get that outside perspective, much like when you're
in a romantic relationship and you're starting to ask your
friends like, hey, is this normal, it's really important for
you to start getting peaceeople that are outside of the
scope of the behavior or outside of the workforce if
your manager or your HR partner is not available.
Speaker 2 (18:08):
I really appreciate you mentioning this, Kayla, because over my
career I have not always seen HR as a partner
because naturally, as a black woman coming in talking about
toxic workforce is it's almost like okay, you know, and
it's sunny outside, and it's like, okay, well, how do
you navigate? So I appreciate your honesty because I think
(18:30):
what's so important is that no matter where you are
in your career, you have to also like look at
for yourself right, and you need to make sure that
you have a network of people who you can lean on.
But let's say you feel like you're in a toxic
working situation, you know what documentation should you be gathering.
Speaker 3 (18:47):
Like.
Speaker 2 (18:47):
For example, let's say Gianna is in her first big
girl job and she's like, someone doesn't seem right. What
should she start documenting to protect herself, especially if the
working situation potentially from toxic to hostile.
Speaker 1 (19:02):
That's a great question.
Speaker 4 (19:03):
I first want to say and validate your own experiences
as a black woman with HR.
Speaker 1 (19:10):
I just want to hold space for that.
Speaker 4 (19:11):
I'm a Mexican woman in HR, and I've been treated
really poorly by HR, so I think just anybody listening,
and especially you as a co host, I want to
hold space for that and apologize like I wouldn't do it,
but my kind my people did, and I'm sorry for that.
Speaker 2 (19:28):
Thank you, Kayle.
Speaker 1 (19:29):
Of course.
Speaker 4 (19:30):
Yeah, when you're starting to experience these signs of toxic
work environment, documentation is key, so thank you for bringing
that up. There's a couple things I want to drill into.
Speaker 1 (19:43):
People who are just starting in the workforce.
Speaker 4 (19:45):
The first is when you are having to document anything
like this, you need to be documenting it on your
own server. I want you to create a Google doc
in your own personal Gmail, and I want you to
start doc documenting things in that space. The second is
it's important for you when you're documenting to get as
(20:07):
many facts as possible. Your employer, the law, anybody. They
are looking for the facts that have led to spaces.
So I tell people date time, like who, when, where
were people around. Once you have those facts sort of
written out in this Google doc, that's when you can
pull on how you felt. I felt unmotivated, I felt scared,
(20:29):
I felt intimidated. Adding the emotions in after listing the
facts is really really key and crucial. But I find
that if we don't separate the two, our documentation just
tends to be a letter about how hurt we are
instead of a guide or a chronological account of what
(20:49):
has been happening. And then the last thing I'll say
is when you are documenting something, it is key to
document it as quickly as possible after the incidents have happened.
Everybody can see a car accident or an argument in
the break room, and everybody's opinion about it or perception
of it is different, right, And so if you're able
to get it out of your brain and onto paper
(21:13):
the soonest as possible, you're going to have the most
factual account, and you can also really show, hey, this
event happened at noon and by twelve twenty eight, like
I'm time stamping it. So here's the date, here's the
time I'm writing it, here's when it happened, here are
the facts, and here's how it impacted me.
Speaker 3 (21:31):
So let's say, in this hypothetical situation, like I have
all the documentation I need and I feel like the
next step is going to my manager because I have
a good relationship with that person. How do you approach
that conversation with your manager when you do consider them
to be an ally.
Speaker 4 (21:48):
I recommend always starting out as informal as possible and
not say hey, I've been documenting this, but say hey,
there's some stuff I want to talk to you about,
and it is impacting how I work, it's impacting my experience.
Here are you open to talking about that? What I'm
(22:09):
trying to do is collaborate with you. It's me and
my manager against the problem. And if they want specific examples,
and you can say, well, i've been writing this down,
are you okay? If I pull that up, can kind
of talk through it together, but just go into it
with this informal you know, tone, go into it with
you could even say this is probably really designer manager. Hey,
I'm having some issues and I know it's you and
(22:31):
me against work issues, and so I'm hoping that you can,
you know, collaborate with me on how to make this better.
Speaker 3 (22:37):
I love that language, and I love the idea of
bringing in your manager as a partner to help resolve
whatever issues you're experience experiencing. But of course, like people
will be in situations where their manager isn't their biggest cheerleader,
and maybe their manager isn't going to help them resolve
the problem. And that brings us to our listener question
for this week. So this is our segment Dear work Bestie,
(22:59):
where we answer questions from people who listen to the show,
And given the sensitive nature of today's listener question, we're
going to keep our work best anonymous and read their question.
I'm a recent grad who's been dealing with workplace harassment
issues at my new job. Some coworkers have belittled me
and even made some explicit comments within my own department.
(23:19):
A specific coworker has made me feel excluded. I feel
like I've been put in an unwelcoming situation and When
I've brought up the issue to my team leader, they
put the blame on me for others not doing their
rules properly. They even told me to quote unquote man up.
Would the next best step be reaching out to HR?
(23:40):
If so, how can I prepare for that conversation and
should I expect consequences?
Speaker 4 (23:46):
Well, if you are ready to go to HR, I
recommend a few things. If you haven't documented, I would
spend some time writing out the instances with quotes like
you just did when you wrote in so that you
can give as many facts as possible to HR when
you are writing that documentation. It would also be helpful
(24:07):
for you to write the days and or how many
times you've approached your manager about this. HR needs to
know that you went, you tried to resolve this, it
hasn't been resolved, and now you're escalating the situation. The
last thing I'll say before I jump into potential consequences
is this should feel really tough, and so when you're
(24:32):
preparing your documentation when you ask to meet with HR,
I just want you to know it's okay to feel
the way that you're feeling. You should still attempt it.
You're not doing anything wrong. When we talk consequences, the
legal term for that is retaliation. So legally you should
be and are protected from being treated differently when you
(24:52):
bring a complaint. That doesn't mean that you're not going
to be retaliated against. So what I would ask your
a R team member is can I have a copy
of the retaliation policy? And what is the process for
me to come to you if I feel I am
being retaliated against. Once you start using that word, HR
(25:16):
perks up. HR has to start looking out for you.
HR has to start coaching your boss. And once you're
done with that conversation, this is key if you remember
nothing else, I want you to email your HR partner
a recap of your conversation. If you don't, it is
(25:36):
so easy for them to manipulate or why or say
that you know it didn't come off as serious to
me as the HR partner, I didn't think it was
that serious. Send that recap email. When you send that
recap email, blind copy or personal email, I.
Speaker 3 (25:52):
Really appreciate you sharing all of this because you know,
when you think HR is there to one thousand percent
be your supports as them, knowing that still things can
kind of fall through the cracks, it feels like should
I even go? Is it even worth it? But the
idea of following up and recapping is so smart because
(26:13):
it's just another document, It's another receipt that you have,
because these can be really sticky situation. So I appreciate
you sharing all of that.
Speaker 2 (26:20):
So, Okaylen, I want to round out this interview by
talking about what our work besties can do to vet
a possible employer when they're on the job hunt, Like
what should you be looking out for? What questions should
they be asking in the job interview to gauge if
a company or a team's work culture could potentially be toxic.
Speaker 4 (26:40):
So I think what's important when we're talking about this
is to recognize that I am coming from a place
of privilege when I talk about this, because I get
the privilege of being selected in what job I want.
And so if you are in a space where you
just need to accept a job, I just want to honor,
(27:02):
like it's okay, the economy is tough.
Speaker 1 (27:05):
I've never spent more money on coffee in my life.
Speaker 4 (27:07):
And if you've got to accept a job, accept the
job right and then come to me and I'll help
you make sure that like, I don't know, we sue
your job if they're awful.
Speaker 5 (27:14):
But in general, the first thing that you want to
look for is how diverse is their leadership team.
Speaker 4 (27:25):
And I'm not just talking diversity by race. I'm talking
diversity by gender. I am talking any other you know,
things that you can see on the surface. The next
is do they create space for you to interview them
as much as they are interviewing you. I know companies
that say we have an hour, I'm only talking for
thirty minutes, and then I want you to ask as
(27:46):
many questions as you want in thirty minutes. So if
they are leaving five minutes or ten minutes for you
to ask questions, there's some toxicity that they're probably trying
to hide, mostly because that means that they do not
value the fact that you are interviewing them. To another
space that's going to give you something is when you
were talking about the job description.
Speaker 1 (28:07):
Anything that says family, work hard, play hard, run what
I'm out.
Speaker 4 (28:14):
Anything that says like we're a fast paced team. Like
fast paced team is also just like this startup word
that I'm like, whoa whoa whoa whoa, Like why do
we got to be so fast, you know, so that
is a really big sign. Just chill, you know, like
we're not most of the time, we're not saving lives.
(28:35):
We're corporate girlies. Like I'm saving no one's life. I
don't need to be fast paced by any of that.
Speaker 1 (28:40):
The final thing I'll.
Speaker 4 (28:41):
Say when you're interviewing and really trying to find like
if it's toxic, is one question that I ask any
person in an interview that is either going to be
my manager or an equal, and that question is when
was the last time that you apologize to body at work?
Speaker 1 (29:01):
And how did that go?
Speaker 2 (29:02):
That's a good one, Spicy.
Speaker 4 (29:04):
When I ask people this as a candidate, if I'm
interviewing for a job and I ask that, I say,
I don't need to know what was the reason behind
why you had to apologize because we don't know each
other that well. I don't want you to feel like
you have to get vulnerable when you ask that question,
you need to think of two things. Number one, how
long did it take them to respond? If they don't
have something off the top of their head, they're not
(29:26):
going to be a team that is going to be
a healthy team. A healthy team recognizes that We step
on people's toes weekly, and you got to apologize for that,
and you got to be able to apologize quick and
forget quick in authentic ways. The next thing is how
do they respond, Oh, yeah, I sent an email, I
sent a slack I no, no, no.
Speaker 1 (29:46):
I need to see effort.
Speaker 4 (29:48):
I need to see a physical effort towards an apology
to know that this is not a toxic work environment.
Speaker 1 (29:55):
So we've got a few things about like.
Speaker 4 (29:57):
Look online when you're researching, We've got some word and
the job description or posting. And then I think that
question is really key to understanding what kind of culture
you're joining.
Speaker 2 (30:07):
That's so great. I love that there's so many different
things people can do preemptively as you're going into these
interviews that will help you identify the signs as to
if this is even a culture or a company that
you want to work for. Kayla, thank you so much.
I feel like you've dropped so many gems today and
we are so thankful for that. Obviously, we want to
keep this party going. You can hang out with me
(30:28):
and Gianna anytime, and our work besties. Speaking of which,
where can our work besties find you?
Speaker 1 (30:34):
I love to meet more of the work besties.
Speaker 4 (30:37):
They can find me and my HR firm at letthirvhr
dot com and that will have the links to all
of our socials, our TikTok, our Instagram, everything, but letthirvhr
dot com is where you can connect with us.
Speaker 2 (30:49):
Awesome you guys. All of the information will be down
on the show description, so make sure you definitely check
that out.
Speaker 3 (30:54):
Thank you, Kayla, Thank you so much.
Speaker 1 (30:56):
It was a pleasure.
Speaker 2 (31:01):
Kayla dropped a lot of great advice. And if this
conversations made you realize that you might be working in
an unhealthy environment, we hope you use Kayla's advice to
help you navigate whatever toxic working situation you might find
yourself in after the break. So when you're working your
way up the ladder, the natural next step might be
for you to become a manager. But is the manager track? Cringe?
(31:25):
Now that's next?
Speaker 3 (31:37):
Okay, Kayla was so amazing.
Speaker 2 (31:41):
I don't keep it a set. Yeah, I love anybody
who do that.
Speaker 3 (31:43):
She was so real. Something I'm taking away from our
conversation with Kayla is the idea of following up after
a conversation with HR, so you have to send that
recap where you kind of talk about what you covered
in the call, so with's in writing and also this
idea of like viewing your manager as a resource and
if you have that you know, safe relationship with them,
(32:05):
that trusted relationship, leading with your experience and then bringing
the documentation for backup. But I also just want to
acknowledge too, because we chatted before about your own experience,
and I just want to say that I'm very appreciative
of how vulnerable you are with all of our work besties,
because nobody should have to relive their trauma. It's it's
not fun to bring up and to unpack. But I
(32:27):
know that you, you know, coming here and sharing all of
that is just going to make some people feel seen
and recognized and valued and have them feel encouraged to
take the first step into healing themselves and getting out
of this toxic work environment.
Speaker 2 (32:39):
So I appreciate you. Thank you. Gee Yeah, no, I
mean it's to your point, it is hard to relive
things sometimes, But to your point too, I think so
many points. I think that you know, people hopefully can
see themselves reflected in this. And I think one of
the biggest things I always say is like I don't
want to go through anything in life and it have
been for nothing. Like if my life and the experiences
(33:02):
that I've gone through can help inform others of what
they do and they don't want in a job and
a manager in an industry, hopefully, then that services people.
A couple of things that I'm taking away from this
convo is just again reinforcing the importance of that receipt stock.
I mean, I think that that is just something that
no matter where you are in your career, always have
(33:23):
a document where you have your receipts and so like
we discussed, you know, documenting what was said, how it
made you feel the impact of those words. Then also
something that she said that I think is so actionable
for everyone is doing the research beforehand. Right, So, like, okay,
company A is whining and dining you like they're making
you feel great. You have the agency and the power
(33:45):
to go on their website. You can actually start to see,
like does executive leadership look like and reflect the world
I want to live in? And does it reflect me?
Because if you are a person coming from a marginalized
community and you look and all you see at the
top are really old white men maybe that isn't where
you would possibly grow.
Speaker 3 (34:05):
Yeah, and I will just say sometimes you can do
your due diligence, and still it's a bait and switch. Yeah,
And so don't like feel that's a reflection of you
and you're not being prepared because I mean everyone's been
in a situation where you're like, oop, I really thought
I thought different.
Speaker 2 (34:22):
Hello, toxic relationship. Toxic relationship, right, you'd be like I
thought we was feeling each other and crowdsource I asked
around right on, like you're crazy. Yeah. Yeah, always never
be afraid to walk away. Never be afraid. So, speaking
of walking away, let's walk into some receipts. So many receipts,
(34:43):
so many receipts grow. This is a receipt booklet. But
show the receipts is where we get to look at
the latest workplace headlines and trends. We get to talk
about some workplace myths and see if there's any truth
to them. Gianna, what's on the deck for today?
Speaker 3 (34:56):
Okay, we're talking about gen zers not wanting to be managed.
Speaker 2 (35:02):
Okay, I'm gonna let you cook. Go ahead.
Speaker 3 (35:05):
So Fortune magazine reported that over half of gen zers
don't want to be middle managers.
Speaker 2 (35:10):
That's according to a.
Speaker 3 (35:11):
Survey conducted by recruitment firm Robert Walters. The survey also
found that seventy three percent of gen zers would rather
grow in an individual contributor role or ICY role than
become a manager. So this is the trend that has
been labeled conscious embossing because you know, young people feel
(35:31):
like being a manager is too high stress and there's
little reward. It doesn't mean necessarily that they don't want
to embrace leadership roles, but they want to be their
own boss more so, and they're interested in starting, you know,
their own businesses and having more agency over their careers
in that way.
Speaker 2 (35:49):
Interesting, what do you think as someone who has been
an ICY and a manager. I much prefer being an
individual contributor and like could we could do like I mean,
that could be a whole another episode. But if not,
you guys can also listen to our episode All Around
Managers Toxic Managers. But the reason why I like being
an IC is because I just feel like I have
(36:10):
more agency over my time and day like a manager.
Think of being a manager as a parent, like in
many ways, like your success is predicated on the success
of your children, i e. Your direct reports, like you
are helping foster their growth, you're helping develop them. Yeah. No,
being a manager requires different skill sets than being an
(36:31):
individual contributor. And even though you might get a role
where you could be both, right, which also is kind
of like double work, I have found that being an
individual contributor, I get to own my ideas, my agency,
my time a little bit more, and I really really
appreciate that. So I can understand where gen Z is
coming from and the idea of being a manager being
(36:51):
really high stressed with little reward. I know we've asked
you this before, but like, would you want to be
a manager?
Speaker 3 (36:59):
I gotta imagine, I, you know, yeah, really fun. I
feel like my type a structuredness, would really thrive in
a management position. And I do really want to be
a manager one day. I am very self aware to
say that I don't think right now that is the
the move for me. I'm very much in my individual
(37:21):
contributor era love it, so yeah, one day, for sure,
I would love to be a manager, because I feel
like for me, the managers I've been very fortunate to
have have almost been more of like mentors, and I
love that aspect of it. I'm a middle child, if
I haven't said that already, So I've always like benefited
from like the mentorship of my sister and then giving
that to my younger brother.
Speaker 2 (37:41):
And I just like love that role like a passageway.
Speaker 3 (37:43):
Yeah, you know, just like flowing right there. So I
really would love to manage at one at one point.
And I think I said this in our management episode
on what makes It Good and Bad? Boss, like you
were just saying that right now, I would probably be
like a bit of a micromanager because I'm working on
my control.
Speaker 2 (38:00):
You gotta go more dead fish.
Speaker 3 (38:01):
Yeah, I gotta get into dead fish mode. You guys
already know. So Yeah, I think one day, for sure,
I would like love to be a manager. I would
love to be in a leadership role. But right now
I'm just loving my ic moment because it's very content
creation heavy and I'm not ready to give that up
in you know, the next year or so. And also
I feel like I have a lot to learn. I'm
(38:22):
very much learning from the managers around me about what
makes a great manager, and that is going to inform,
you know, my management style when the day comes.
Speaker 2 (38:33):
Yeah, I think it's really important for people to ask themselves,
like what do I want out of my career? What
are the necessary steps to get there? But being a
manager doesn't necessarily make sense for everybody, and that's totally okay,
So I kind of like conscious unbossing.
Speaker 3 (38:48):
Yeah, I also really appreciate you being like as a manager.
That wasn't it for me, And I feel like other
people I work with at LinkedIn have acknowledged that as
well and just refreshting, like you think, oh, yeah, being
a manager is like that end all be all, and
then like I could imagine some people stay in that
role even if it's not fulfilling. So for people who
are open about it, you know, not being the right
fits really amazing because it's like, Okay, I don't need
(39:10):
to like become that person and love it and get
it one hundred percent right. Clearly, it's like just like
any other role, you know, there's so much pressure when
it comes to a manager. Obviously it's a big responsibility.
Speaker 2 (39:20):
But yeah, one thing about me, if it don't fit,
I'm gonna take it off.
Speaker 3 (39:23):
Shoe this is cinderellas Jesus a shoe the top.
Speaker 2 (39:28):
If I'm getting tracked up in there cut it out,
don't fit. So I guess like we are showing our
receipts and our receipts are both saying that we say
yes to conscious on bossing.
Speaker 3 (39:39):
Yeah, I support people who don't want to be it.
Speaker 2 (39:43):
I support whatever y'all support. Just be cute and ethical.
That's our neutral.
Speaker 3 (39:48):
But let us know what you guys think. If you're
gen Z, are you conscious on bossing? And if you're
like more millennial gen X, have you guys been managers?
If so, what was your experience like and what have
you learned from it? Would you be a manager again?
Speaker 2 (40:02):
Are you consciously on bossing as we speak? Let us
know either way. Thank you guys so much for listening
to this episode. I know it was a really neaty
and heavy episode, so thank you for sticking with us
through this delicious sandwich.
Speaker 3 (40:16):
And we're going to pack even more in the newsletter
this week. Make sure you guys are subscribed. It's called
Let's Talk Offline. You can find the link in the
show description. It's also in my LinkedIn bio and Jamay
and I would love to know what you guys are
taking away from this conversation, whether it be from shore
the receipts or conversation with Kayla. Let us know by
tagging us in a post on LinkedIn. We'll be sure
(40:37):
to meet you guys in the comments.
Speaker 2 (40:38):
Yes, please tag us. We would love to see also
definitely want to give a huge shout out to this
week's listener for their question. I hope that you guys
also see that if you want to send in a
question anonymously, we will honor that. Okay, we keep things
offline all right, so definitely send us your questions. Information
on how to do that is in the show description.
Speaker 3 (40:59):
On one last thing before you guys go, please rate
and review the show, give us a follow. We want
to hear from you. We want you coming back each week.
Do all the things, all the things, all the things
all right before you go, remember we've always got your back,
so if something comes up, Let's Talk Offline. I'm Gianna Prudenti.
Speaker 2 (41:19):
And I'm Jamaie Jackson Gadsden, Stay Thriving.
Speaker 3 (41:24):
Let's Talk Offline is a production of LinkedIn News and
iHeart Podcasts. The show is produced by Western Sound. Our
producer is Sabrina Fang. The show is edited by Savannah Wright,
our associate producer is Sarah Dilley, Alex mckinnis is our engineer,
and Ben Adair is the executive producer.
Speaker 2 (41:41):
Executive producers at iHeart Podcasts are Katrina Norvel and Nikki Etour.
We got support from LinkedIn's Jesse Humple, Sarah Storr and
Ayana Angel. Maya Pope Chappelle is director of Content, Dave
Pond is Head of News Production, Courtney Coop is Head
of Original Programming, and Dan and Wrong is the editor
in chief of LinkedIn
Speaker 4 (42:07):
M HM
LinkedIn News.
Speaker 2 (00:05):
There have been times I've gone home and I've told
my mom about some of the things that I'm going through,
and it's not like she's just like, you know, put
your big girl panties on and keep going. But she's
just like, honey, if you had seen what they used
to put us through in the seventies and eighties, you
would think that this is a joy walk. And I'm like,
we don't reward trauma with less trauma. We reward trauma
with healing. Mommy. That was beautiful.
Speaker 3 (00:28):
From LinkedIn News and I heard podcasts. This is Let's
Talk Offline, a show about what it takes to thrive
in the early years of your career without sacrificing your values,
sanity or sleep.
Speaker 2 (00:40):
I'm Gianni Predente and I'm Jamaie Jackson Gadson. Now, look, y'all,
everyone deserves to work in an environment where they feel safe,
supported and heard. But unfortunately, I mean, that's just not
always the case. There might be moments in your career
where you find yourself in what we call a toxic workplace,
and I mean it could manifest itself in the most
(01:00):
obvious ways, like bullying or even favoritism or in.
Speaker 3 (01:05):
More subtle ways that might even feel kind of normal,
like office gossip or feeling burnt out all the time.
And when you're early in your career, possibly working your
first job, you might not even know what a toxic
work environment looks like until you're.
Speaker 2 (01:21):
Out of it.
Speaker 3 (01:21):
So we're going to break down how to recognize the
signs of an unhealthy workplace and how to navigate it. So,
if you guys have been listening to the show for
some time now, you know one of Jamie's favorite analogies
when it comes to jobs is dating delicious. So to
use that analogy, you know, you could be in a
(01:43):
toxic relationship and not even know it until you get
into a more loving relationship. I know some of you
guys are like, yeah, I've been there, and at that
point you realize like, oh, this is how it's supposed
to be. The same thing comes to jobs, right when
you're early in your career and you don't have a
lot of experience, you're in that first role and you
(02:04):
kind of just take this as like the norm, right,
you have nothing to compare that first job too, so
you don't know what a toxic environment really looks like
until you're outside of it, or somebody externally is like, hmm,
something fishy is going.
Speaker 2 (02:19):
On, something fish around here.
Speaker 3 (02:22):
You like quite literally don't know any better until you
move on. So later in the show, we're going to
bring on an employee relation specialist, Kayla Moncayo, to talk
about how to identify a toxic work situation and how
to navigate it. But first, Yeah, Jimmy.
Speaker 2 (02:38):
I think we need to kind of like set the
standard of what a toxic work environment. Let's get some
definitions out here. Yeah, so, what exactly is a toxic
work environment? Point blank period. It is a negative environment
where employees might feel unsafe or uncomfortable, and I mean
it's going to obviously lead to the things that we've
talked about before, like stress, anxiety, even depression. I mean, honestly,
(02:58):
super toxic work environments can get really really sticky, very quickly.
And sometimes it can be caused by one person. It
can be caused by a team, It can be caused
by a department, It can be caused by the whole
darn thing, all right. It really can come a number
of different ways from a number of different places. But
what I think it's really important to call out is
that it can feel really hard to know whether you're
(03:21):
in that toxic workplace or not, to your point, because
you might just assume that everything that's happening to you
is super normal. Girl, I can talk about that all
day long, but I think what's going to be helpful
is thinking of some obvious examples. So some obvious examples
of a toxic work environment would be you experiencing things
such as bullying or harassment at work, but things that
(03:43):
may not be as obvious but are still I think
in the category of toxic work environments are things such as,
you know, you having a team who doesn't respect your boundaries,
you feeling like your voice isn't being heard, you being
overworked to the point that it's intruding on your work
life balance, and so many other different things. And so obviously,
again some of these can just be the team or
(04:07):
the work culture, but that does not negate the fact
that it can still be toxic and toxic for you.
Speaker 3 (04:12):
Yeah. Yeah, I appreciate you bringing up kind of the
less obvious signs because I feel like in TV shows
we see like these toxic workplaces and it's like crazy,
and maybe that is the experience you're having so hopefully
you know, this episode helps you. But I feel like
a lot of times it's smaller scale and you're kind
of just like sitting around being like hmmm, like something's off.
(04:36):
When you're early, You're like, who do I go to?
Like do I bring this up? Is this worth mentioning?
Do I just kind of suck it up and like
deal with it?
Speaker 2 (04:43):
And what I really appreciate is that gen Z is
asking the questions, because I will say, as Millennials, it's
not that we didn't ask. I think we just had
to sort of accept our lot.
Speaker 3 (04:52):
It was like put your head down and word, yes,
do it.
Speaker 2 (04:55):
And the thing is is because we had parents who
were going through even worse things, you know. I mean
like there have been times I've gone home and I've
told my mom about some of the things that I'm
going through, and it's not like she's just like, you know,
put your big girl panties on and keep going. But
she's just like, honey, if you had seen what they
used to put us through in the seventies and eighties,
you would think that this is a joy walk. And
I'm like, we don't reward trauma with less trauma. We
(05:16):
reward trauma with healing. Mommy, that was beautiful, But it's true,
you know, and I think it is a generational thing.
But what I'm hoping people take from this conversation is
that wherever you are, you have the power to ask
yourself is this toxic for me? And if it is,
how do I equip myself to move on? But gee,
let me ask you, have you ever been in a
(05:38):
toxic work environment? I mean, the first thing I'm thinking
of is the ice cream shot, but ice cream job.
Speaker 3 (05:43):
Yeah, you guys already know if you listened to like
our first episode, I was you know, what would I say?
I was like, Yeah, they just took advantage of me there,
that was a crazy Yeah, they exploited me when.
Speaker 2 (05:54):
I was looking for it.
Speaker 3 (05:56):
Well, you guys know, this is my first job, and
this isn't going to be a tell all on LinkedIn
and the toxicity. Now, I honestly haven't really experienced a
toxic work environment, and I'm very fortunate for that. I
think I have definitely seen other people endure a toxic
work environment. And the way I kind of know that
is my friends or family will tell me about the
(06:20):
way their bosses or the colleagues are and how work
is you know, unevenly distributed or favoritism stuff like that,
And I'm like, hmmm, like they say it normal and
I'm like, wait, that would like so not fly on
my team, right, So it makes me think like, oh,
you know, you guys might be in that type of situation.
And some people, a lot of people I know actually
(06:41):
who have been in jobs that they were just completely
overworked and it was toxic have left and now they are,
you know, finding their greener pastures.
Speaker 2 (06:52):
Their cortisol levels are probably so much a little puffy
face for them.
Speaker 3 (06:55):
Oh my god. Even though I haven't been in a
toxic work environment, my cortisol levels are the roof.
Speaker 2 (07:00):
But we're working on it different systems.
Speaker 3 (07:04):
But what about you, Like, have you experienced a toxic
workplace before.
Speaker 2 (07:09):
My confessional, Yeah, I've I've actually been in multiple toxic
work environments. But I think what will help, as I
sort of lay the groundwork here, is to first acknowledge that,
particularly for people of color, marginalized communities, and specifically black women,
when we raise our hand and we tell people that
things are happening, people don't want to believe us. This
(07:31):
is a larger conversation, we can talk about society and
culture and the expectation of people just carrying things being
that quote unquote strong black woman trop right. What I
think will be helpful is me also bringing in the
stats here to show like, this is not just a
jam experience, this is it. So what I'm gonna do
is I'm gonna share some stats from some credible sources,
and I'm also gonna then share some experiences that I've had.
(07:54):
Let's get let's get locked and loaded. Okay, let's let's
tighten up the bra So lean In, which if you
guys are not familiar of lean and Leanin as a
women's advocacy nonprofit, they did a survey a couple of
years ago looking at the experiences of black women in
the workforce. And here's a couple of things that they found.
Black women are facing disproportionately high barriers in the workplace.
(08:17):
They're heavily impacted by bias and hiring and promotions. Another
thing that Leanin found was that black women are promoted
as significantly lower rate than white women at the first
step up to manager. So it's not even that we're
not being promoted, we're also not being promoted into leadership
opportunities that you might obviously come with more money. I've
(08:38):
certainly been in situations like this before where there's always
been this idea of readiness. But then it's interesting because
then one thing that people fail to think about is, Okay, well,
what happens then when you are promoted as a manager,
as a black woman, how are you protected? Like I
have been thrown to the wolves before of trying to
figure out how to navigate certain conversations, how to do things.
(08:59):
And this is out of just standard first time management.
I mean, and I've actually had people report to me
and before who did not want to report to a
black woman whoa yes like and have said like they
don't feel comfortable reporting to people who they can't relate to,
And I was like, oh, okay, so well what do
you mean by that? Yeah, it's interesting because Lena also
(09:21):
says that black women are less likely than white women
to say that their managers give them chances to manage
people in projects, provide opportunities to showcase their work, or
help them navigate organizational politics. It's a lot because you're
trying to navigate these politics, first of all, as a
woman in corporate America. But then also when you have
additional layers in that you're trying to figure out, Okay,
(09:42):
well how do I create allies? And unfortunately a lot
of people will just be like, oh, well, you just
have to figure it out. This one is one that
really really touched me. And this is like sort of
like the biggest one I think when I've been thinking
about my career in like the toxic work environments I've
been in. They've also shared that, you know, black women
experience more microaggressions than other groups of women, and we're
(10:02):
also three to four times as likely as white women
to be subjected to disrespectful and quote unquote othering comments
and behavior. I have dealt with this in my career
many times. I mean I've had people ask me is
my hair real? I have you know, at some point
I've worn certain clothes in the office and they're like, well,
how can you afford that? You know, I've had people
(10:23):
before say things like oh, you're you're so educated, or
you sound so smart for a black girl. Like people
have said some wild af things. And it's interesting because
when I was younger, I used to obviously just get
very offended and angry about this, like what is it
about being an educated black woman that people can't conceptualize?
(10:44):
And I soon learned that, you know, there's so many
things to blame for that society, media, cultural, you know, literacy,
like just people being exposed to things. But I soon
learned that it was their own incompetence and ignorance that
really kind of of then they would put back on
me to sort of like say, like, oh, I didn't
know that a black girl could have a master's degree
(11:07):
or that she could carry herself in these worlds. It's
frustrating that you have to be two, three, four times
as good to even just get a fraction of the respect.
When I was younger, I couldn't leave toxic work environments.
I had to figure out how to pay rent. Yeah,
and the only times that I felt empowered to do
that usually is when I had another job lined up.
There have been jobs I've left because it was taking
(11:28):
such a toll on my mental health. I was going
to the hospital because I was having such terrible panic attacks,
and even like I won't say how recently, but I've
even had to over the last couple of years figure out,
like this job is not going to kill me. And
that is the sad reality of what you have to
ask yourself when you get in toxic work about how
much are you willing to take? And nobody can really
(11:51):
tell you that. But I do want you to know,
anyone who is listening to this episode that if you
are hearing anything that I'm saying and you're like, wow,
this kind of feels like what I'm feeling or I
feel seen in this, I want you to know that
you have two work besties, Gihn and I who are
going to stand with you and we're going to help
(12:13):
make sure that you have all the resource. I'm getting emotional,
it's it's such a sucky thing, but I really hope
that you know, at the end of the day, you
choose you, because that's really all you have to do.
Speaker 3 (12:29):
Look, these are really tough conversations. Luckily we're bringing in
employee relations expert Kayla Manco to talk about what you
can do if you're facing a toxic work situation. That's
after the break.
Speaker 2 (12:48):
So a toxic workforce, sometimes I think, is not as
black and white as we wanted to see. So this
week G and I are bringing in another heavy hitter,
someone who's going to talk to us all about toxic
workforces and hopefully how we can avoid them or navigate them. Giana,
who do we have this week? Today?
Speaker 3 (13:08):
We're chatting with Kayla macaio. She's the founder of Let
there BEHR, a human resources consulting firm dedicated to supporting
employees and HR professionals. Kayla is an employee relations expert
with over thirteen years of experience working in human resources. So,
you guys, she has seen it all. She's helped guide
employees through toxic work environments, and we're so excited to
(13:29):
have her on today to share all those insights. Kayla,
Welcome to the show.
Speaker 1 (13:33):
Hey Kyle, Hi, thank you so much for having me.
Speaker 2 (13:36):
Kayla, we are so excited to have you. So I'm
going to start this conversation off by talking about what
a toxic work environment is versus a hostile one. Can
you help us explain the difference.
Speaker 4 (13:50):
Yeah, So they're different in a couple ways, but sometimes
one leads to the other. So a hostile work environment
is actually a legal term, right. It's a space where
you can sue your employer because of the environment. And
typically speaking, a hostile work environment says you are unable
to perform your job duties because you're being harassed or
(14:12):
discriminated against. And a lot of the times hostile work
environment has to center around what we call a protected class.
Are you being harassed or discriminated against because of your gender,
your sexual orientation, race, etc. A toxic work environment, though,
is a little bit different in that number one can't
sue your employer for a toxic work environment doesn't mean
(14:33):
it's not as awful as a hostile It just means
that our laws haven't caught up, right. But a toxic
work environment typically centers around bullying dysfunction, just like really
bad vibes that absolutely impact your mental health. And so
we're looking toxic wise at that dysfunction and certainly at
the bullying and just kind of mean girl things that
(14:56):
tend to happen.
Speaker 3 (14:57):
You mentioned a few signs of a toxic workplace, like
one being bullying, which I think if you're in that environment,
you're like, Okay, that's pretty obvious. But I'm sure there
are a lot of less obvious signs that you kind
of think are normal until you leave or somebody external
says that should not be happening. So what are some
less obvious signs of a toxic workplace.
Speaker 4 (15:20):
Yeah, what I want to let anybody entering the workforce
know is the way you feel is important. So if
you are feeling like I'm nervous to get to work
every day, not because the work is challenging, but because
i don't know how I'm going to be treated, just
lean into that, I think.
Speaker 1 (15:40):
Just trust that.
Speaker 4 (15:41):
But some of those subtle signs that tend to come
as a feeling are going to be Are you being
spoken to in a condescending way on a regular basis,
that's a big one. Another sign of a toxic work
environment is a cliche, but their clicks.
Speaker 1 (15:58):
Now, let me be clear.
Speaker 4 (15:59):
I think that's really important to have certain social groups
at work, But when they start to create an identity
around bullying or bullying type behavior, that's another subtle sign.
The last one I'll say that I think is really
really important is the types of relationships within the hierarchy.
The way in which the layers in your hierarchy, if
(16:23):
you have them are communicating, whether they're short in their
emails or you know, their slack messages or team messages
feel harsh, that is another really subtle way of not
just the environment, but what you're going to continue to experience.
You might have a great boss, but your boss's boss
might be a total jerk, and that's still a toxic
(16:43):
work environment.
Speaker 3 (16:44):
Yeah, you know, you mentioned like maybe you're going to
work and you're feeling nervous and you get there and
maybe it's like a little clique and maybe you even
see outright bullying when you're early in your career. I
can imagine I would kind of be observed and being like, Okay,
it's anybody else seeing this? Like who should you be
turning to if you're starting to pick up on these signs?
Speaker 4 (17:07):
I think that depends on ashing things. The first thing
I'll say is someone who's been in HR for as
long as I have is HR is not always your friend.
So I'm always really hesitant to say turn to HR
if you're noticing these things, because I think, unfortunately that's
a company by company basis. The hope is that you
can go to your manager, to your boss. If you
can't go to your manager or your boss though, and
(17:28):
HR isn't an option, or you don't trust HR, I
think it's really really important that you have some sort
of communication with somebody that's outside of the organization. So
whether it's a friend or a loved one, a partner,
it's important that you talk to somebody that isn't face
to face and say, hey, here's what I'm experiencing.
Speaker 1 (17:48):
Is this normal?
Speaker 4 (17:50):
When you get that outside perspective, much like when you're
in a romantic relationship and you're starting to ask your
friends like, hey, is this normal, it's really important for
you to start getting peaceeople that are outside of the
scope of the behavior or outside of the workforce if
your manager or your HR partner is not available.
Speaker 2 (18:08):
I really appreciate you mentioning this, Kayla, because over my
career I have not always seen HR as a partner
because naturally, as a black woman coming in talking about
toxic workforce is it's almost like okay, you know, and
it's sunny outside, and it's like, okay, well, how do
you navigate? So I appreciate your honesty because I think
(18:30):
what's so important is that no matter where you are
in your career, you have to also like look at
for yourself right, and you need to make sure that
you have a network of people who you can lean on.
But let's say you feel like you're in a toxic
working situation, you know what documentation should you be gathering.
Speaker 3 (18:47):
Like.
Speaker 2 (18:47):
For example, let's say Gianna is in her first big
girl job and she's like, someone doesn't seem right. What
should she start documenting to protect herself, especially if the
working situation potentially from toxic to hostile.
Speaker 1 (19:02):
That's a great question.
Speaker 4 (19:03):
I first want to say and validate your own experiences
as a black woman with HR.
Speaker 1 (19:10):
I just want to hold space for that.
Speaker 4 (19:11):
I'm a Mexican woman in HR, and I've been treated
really poorly by HR, so I think just anybody listening,
and especially you as a co host, I want to
hold space for that and apologize like I wouldn't do it,
but my kind my people did, and I'm sorry for that.
Speaker 2 (19:28):
Thank you, Kayle.
Speaker 1 (19:29):
Of course.
Speaker 4 (19:30):
Yeah, when you're starting to experience these signs of toxic
work environment, documentation is key, so thank you for bringing
that up. There's a couple things I want to drill into.
Speaker 1 (19:43):
People who are just starting in the workforce.
Speaker 4 (19:45):
The first is when you are having to document anything
like this, you need to be documenting it on your
own server. I want you to create a Google doc
in your own personal Gmail, and I want you to
start doc documenting things in that space. The second is
it's important for you when you're documenting to get as
(20:07):
many facts as possible. Your employer, the law, anybody. They
are looking for the facts that have led to spaces.
So I tell people date time, like who, when, where
were people around. Once you have those facts sort of
written out in this Google doc, that's when you can
pull on how you felt. I felt unmotivated, I felt scared,
(20:29):
I felt intimidated. Adding the emotions in after listing the
facts is really really key and crucial. But I find
that if we don't separate the two, our documentation just
tends to be a letter about how hurt we are
instead of a guide or a chronological account of what
(20:49):
has been happening. And then the last thing I'll say
is when you are documenting something, it is key to
document it as quickly as possible after the incidents have happened.
Everybody can see a car accident or an argument in
the break room, and everybody's opinion about it or perception
of it is different, right, And so if you're able
to get it out of your brain and onto paper
(21:13):
the soonest as possible, you're going to have the most
factual account, and you can also really show, hey, this
event happened at noon and by twelve twenty eight, like
I'm time stamping it. So here's the date, here's the
time I'm writing it, here's when it happened, here are
the facts, and here's how it impacted me.
Speaker 3 (21:31):
So let's say, in this hypothetical situation, like I have
all the documentation I need and I feel like the
next step is going to my manager because I have
a good relationship with that person. How do you approach
that conversation with your manager when you do consider them
to be an ally.
Speaker 4 (21:48):
I recommend always starting out as informal as possible and
not say hey, I've been documenting this, but say hey,
there's some stuff I want to talk to you about,
and it is impacting how I work, it's impacting my experience.
Here are you open to talking about that? What I'm
(22:09):
trying to do is collaborate with you. It's me and
my manager against the problem. And if they want specific examples,
and you can say, well, i've been writing this down,
are you okay? If I pull that up, can kind
of talk through it together, but just go into it
with this informal you know, tone, go into it with
you could even say this is probably really designer manager. Hey,
I'm having some issues and I know it's you and
(22:31):
me against work issues, and so I'm hoping that you can,
you know, collaborate with me on how to make this better.
Speaker 3 (22:37):
I love that language, and I love the idea of
bringing in your manager as a partner to help resolve
whatever issues you're experience experiencing. But of course, like people
will be in situations where their manager isn't their biggest cheerleader,
and maybe their manager isn't going to help them resolve
the problem. And that brings us to our listener question
for this week. So this is our segment Dear work Bestie,
(22:59):
where we answer questions from people who listen to the show,
And given the sensitive nature of today's listener question, we're
going to keep our work best anonymous and read their question.
I'm a recent grad who's been dealing with workplace harassment
issues at my new job. Some coworkers have belittled me
and even made some explicit comments within my own department.
(23:19):
A specific coworker has made me feel excluded. I feel
like I've been put in an unwelcoming situation and When
I've brought up the issue to my team leader, they
put the blame on me for others not doing their
rules properly. They even told me to quote unquote man up.
Would the next best step be reaching out to HR?
(23:40):
If so, how can I prepare for that conversation and
should I expect consequences?
Speaker 4 (23:46):
Well, if you are ready to go to HR, I
recommend a few things. If you haven't documented, I would
spend some time writing out the instances with quotes like
you just did when you wrote in so that you
can give as many facts as possible to HR when
you are writing that documentation. It would also be helpful
(24:07):
for you to write the days and or how many
times you've approached your manager about this. HR needs to
know that you went, you tried to resolve this, it
hasn't been resolved, and now you're escalating the situation. The
last thing I'll say before I jump into potential consequences
is this should feel really tough, and so when you're
(24:32):
preparing your documentation when you ask to meet with HR,
I just want you to know it's okay to feel
the way that you're feeling. You should still attempt it.
You're not doing anything wrong. When we talk consequences, the
legal term for that is retaliation. So legally you should
be and are protected from being treated differently when you
(24:52):
bring a complaint. That doesn't mean that you're not going
to be retaliated against. So what I would ask your
a R team member is can I have a copy
of the retaliation policy? And what is the process for
me to come to you if I feel I am
being retaliated against. Once you start using that word, HR
(25:16):
perks up. HR has to start looking out for you.
HR has to start coaching your boss. And once you're
done with that conversation, this is key if you remember
nothing else, I want you to email your HR partner
a recap of your conversation. If you don't, it is
(25:36):
so easy for them to manipulate or why or say
that you know it didn't come off as serious to
me as the HR partner, I didn't think it was
that serious. Send that recap email. When you send that
recap email, blind copy or personal email, I.
Speaker 3 (25:52):
Really appreciate you sharing all of this because you know,
when you think HR is there to one thousand percent
be your supports as them, knowing that still things can
kind of fall through the cracks, it feels like should
I even go? Is it even worth it? But the
idea of following up and recapping is so smart because
(26:13):
it's just another document, It's another receipt that you have,
because these can be really sticky situation. So I appreciate
you sharing all of that.
Speaker 2 (26:20):
So, Okaylen, I want to round out this interview by
talking about what our work besties can do to vet
a possible employer when they're on the job hunt, Like
what should you be looking out for? What questions should
they be asking in the job interview to gauge if
a company or a team's work culture could potentially be toxic.
Speaker 4 (26:40):
So I think what's important when we're talking about this
is to recognize that I am coming from a place
of privilege when I talk about this, because I get
the privilege of being selected in what job I want.
And so if you are in a space where you
just need to accept a job, I just want to honor,
(27:02):
like it's okay, the economy is tough.
Speaker 1 (27:05):
I've never spent more money on coffee in my life.
Speaker 4 (27:07):
And if you've got to accept a job, accept the
job right and then come to me and I'll help
you make sure that like, I don't know, we sue
your job if they're awful.
Speaker 5 (27:14):
But in general, the first thing that you want to
look for is how diverse is their leadership team.
Speaker 4 (27:25):
And I'm not just talking diversity by race. I'm talking
diversity by gender. I am talking any other you know,
things that you can see on the surface. The next
is do they create space for you to interview them
as much as they are interviewing you. I know companies
that say we have an hour, I'm only talking for
thirty minutes, and then I want you to ask as
(27:46):
many questions as you want in thirty minutes. So if
they are leaving five minutes or ten minutes for you
to ask questions, there's some toxicity that they're probably trying
to hide, mostly because that means that they do not
value the fact that you are interviewing them. To another
space that's going to give you something is when you
were talking about the job description.
Speaker 1 (28:07):
Anything that says family, work hard, play hard, run what
I'm out.
Speaker 4 (28:14):
Anything that says like we're a fast paced team. Like
fast paced team is also just like this startup word
that I'm like, whoa whoa whoa whoa, Like why do
we got to be so fast, you know, so that
is a really big sign. Just chill, you know, like
we're not most of the time, we're not saving lives.
(28:35):
We're corporate girlies. Like I'm saving no one's life. I
don't need to be fast paced by any of that.
Speaker 1 (28:40):
The final thing I'll.
Speaker 4 (28:41):
Say when you're interviewing and really trying to find like
if it's toxic, is one question that I ask any
person in an interview that is either going to be
my manager or an equal, and that question is when
was the last time that you apologize to body at work?
Speaker 1 (29:01):
And how did that go?
Speaker 2 (29:02):
That's a good one, Spicy.
Speaker 4 (29:04):
When I ask people this as a candidate, if I'm
interviewing for a job and I ask that, I say,
I don't need to know what was the reason behind
why you had to apologize because we don't know each
other that well. I don't want you to feel like
you have to get vulnerable when you ask that question,
you need to think of two things. Number one, how
long did it take them to respond? If they don't
have something off the top of their head, they're not
(29:26):
going to be a team that is going to be
a healthy team. A healthy team recognizes that We step
on people's toes weekly, and you got to apologize for that,
and you got to be able to apologize quick and
forget quick in authentic ways. The next thing is how
do they respond, Oh, yeah, I sent an email, I
sent a slack I no, no, no.
Speaker 1 (29:46):
I need to see effort.
Speaker 4 (29:48):
I need to see a physical effort towards an apology
to know that this is not a toxic work environment.
Speaker 1 (29:55):
So we've got a few things about like.
Speaker 4 (29:57):
Look online when you're researching, We've got some word and
the job description or posting. And then I think that
question is really key to understanding what kind of culture
you're joining.
Speaker 2 (30:07):
That's so great. I love that there's so many different
things people can do preemptively as you're going into these
interviews that will help you identify the signs as to
if this is even a culture or a company that
you want to work for. Kayla, thank you so much.
I feel like you've dropped so many gems today and
we are so thankful for that. Obviously, we want to
keep this party going. You can hang out with me
(30:28):
and Gianna anytime, and our work besties. Speaking of which,
where can our work besties find you?
Speaker 1 (30:34):
I love to meet more of the work besties.
Speaker 4 (30:37):
They can find me and my HR firm at letthirvhr
dot com and that will have the links to all
of our socials, our TikTok, our Instagram, everything, but letthirvhr
dot com is where you can connect with us.
Speaker 2 (30:49):
Awesome you guys. All of the information will be down
on the show description, so make sure you definitely check
that out.
Speaker 3 (30:54):
Thank you, Kayla, Thank you so much.
Speaker 1 (30:56):
It was a pleasure.
Speaker 2 (31:01):
Kayla dropped a lot of great advice. And if this
conversations made you realize that you might be working in
an unhealthy environment, we hope you use Kayla's advice to
help you navigate whatever toxic working situation you might find
yourself in after the break. So when you're working your
way up the ladder, the natural next step might be
for you to become a manager. But is the manager track? Cringe?
(31:25):
Now that's next?
Speaker 3 (31:37):
Okay, Kayla was so amazing.
Speaker 2 (31:41):
I don't keep it a set. Yeah, I love anybody
who do that.
Speaker 3 (31:43):
She was so real. Something I'm taking away from our
conversation with Kayla is the idea of following up after
a conversation with HR, so you have to send that
recap where you kind of talk about what you covered
in the call, so with's in writing and also this
idea of like viewing your manager as a resource and
if you have that you know, safe relationship with them,
(32:05):
that trusted relationship, leading with your experience and then bringing
the documentation for backup. But I also just want to
acknowledge too, because we chatted before about your own experience,
and I just want to say that I'm very appreciative
of how vulnerable you are with all of our work besties,
because nobody should have to relive their trauma. It's it's
not fun to bring up and to unpack. But I
(32:27):
know that you, you know, coming here and sharing all of
that is just going to make some people feel seen
and recognized and valued and have them feel encouraged to
take the first step into healing themselves and getting out
of this toxic work environment.
Speaker 2 (32:39):
So I appreciate you. Thank you. Gee Yeah, no, I
mean it's to your point, it is hard to relive
things sometimes, But to your point too, I think so
many points. I think that you know, people hopefully can
see themselves reflected in this. And I think one of
the biggest things I always say is like I don't
want to go through anything in life and it have
been for nothing. Like if my life and the experiences
(33:02):
that I've gone through can help inform others of what
they do and they don't want in a job and
a manager in an industry, hopefully, then that services people.
A couple of things that I'm taking away from this
convo is just again reinforcing the importance of that receipt stock.
I mean, I think that that is just something that
no matter where you are in your career, always have
(33:23):
a document where you have your receipts and so like
we discussed, you know, documenting what was said, how it
made you feel the impact of those words. Then also
something that she said that I think is so actionable
for everyone is doing the research beforehand. Right, So, like, okay,
company A is whining and dining you like they're making
you feel great. You have the agency and the power
(33:45):
to go on their website. You can actually start to see,
like does executive leadership look like and reflect the world
I want to live in? And does it reflect me?
Because if you are a person coming from a marginalized
community and you look and all you see at the
top are really old white men maybe that isn't where
you would possibly grow.
Speaker 3 (34:05):
Yeah, and I will just say sometimes you can do
your due diligence, and still it's a bait and switch. Yeah,
And so don't like feel that's a reflection of you
and you're not being prepared because I mean everyone's been
in a situation where you're like, oop, I really thought
I thought different.
Speaker 2 (34:22):
Hello, toxic relationship. Toxic relationship, right, you'd be like I
thought we was feeling each other and crowdsource I asked
around right on, like you're crazy. Yeah. Yeah, always never
be afraid to walk away. Never be afraid. So, speaking
of walking away, let's walk into some receipts. So many receipts,
(34:43):
so many receipts grow. This is a receipt booklet. But
show the receipts is where we get to look at
the latest workplace headlines and trends. We get to talk
about some workplace myths and see if there's any truth
to them. Gianna, what's on the deck for today?
Speaker 3 (34:56):
Okay, we're talking about gen zers not wanting to be managed.
Speaker 2 (35:02):
Okay, I'm gonna let you cook. Go ahead.
Speaker 3 (35:05):
So Fortune magazine reported that over half of gen zers
don't want to be middle managers.
Speaker 2 (35:10):
That's according to a.
Speaker 3 (35:11):
Survey conducted by recruitment firm Robert Walters. The survey also
found that seventy three percent of gen zers would rather
grow in an individual contributor role or ICY role than
become a manager. So this is the trend that has
been labeled conscious embossing because you know, young people feel
(35:31):
like being a manager is too high stress and there's
little reward. It doesn't mean necessarily that they don't want
to embrace leadership roles, but they want to be their
own boss more so, and they're interested in starting, you know,
their own businesses and having more agency over their careers
in that way.
Speaker 2 (35:49):
Interesting, what do you think as someone who has been
an ICY and a manager. I much prefer being an
individual contributor and like could we could do like I mean,
that could be a whole another episode. But if not,
you guys can also listen to our episode All Around
Managers Toxic Managers. But the reason why I like being
an IC is because I just feel like I have
(36:10):
more agency over my time and day like a manager.
Think of being a manager as a parent, like in
many ways, like your success is predicated on the success
of your children, i e. Your direct reports, like you
are helping foster their growth, you're helping develop them. Yeah. No,
being a manager requires different skill sets than being an
(36:31):
individual contributor. And even though you might get a role
where you could be both, right, which also is kind
of like double work, I have found that being an
individual contributor, I get to own my ideas, my agency,
my time a little bit more, and I really really
appreciate that. So I can understand where gen Z is
coming from and the idea of being a manager being
(36:51):
really high stressed with little reward. I know we've asked
you this before, but like, would you want to be
a manager?
Speaker 3 (36:59):
I gotta imagine, I, you know, yeah, really fun. I
feel like my type a structuredness, would really thrive in
a management position. And I do really want to be
a manager one day. I am very self aware to
say that I don't think right now that is the
the move for me. I'm very much in my individual
(37:21):
contributor era love it, so yeah, one day, for sure,
I would love to be a manager, because I feel
like for me, the managers I've been very fortunate to
have have almost been more of like mentors, and I
love that aspect of it. I'm a middle child, if
I haven't said that already, So I've always like benefited
from like the mentorship of my sister and then giving
that to my younger brother.
Speaker 2 (37:41):
And I just like love that role like a passageway.
Speaker 3 (37:43):
Yeah, you know, just like flowing right there. So I
really would love to manage at one at one point.
And I think I said this in our management episode
on what makes It Good and Bad? Boss, like you
were just saying that right now, I would probably be
like a bit of a micromanager because I'm working on
my control.
Speaker 2 (38:00):
You gotta go more dead fish.
Speaker 3 (38:01):
Yeah, I gotta get into dead fish mode. You guys
already know. So Yeah, I think one day, for sure,
I would like love to be a manager. I would
love to be in a leadership role. But right now
I'm just loving my ic moment because it's very content
creation heavy and I'm not ready to give that up
in you know, the next year or so. And also
I feel like I have a lot to learn. I'm
(38:22):
very much learning from the managers around me about what
makes a great manager, and that is going to inform,
you know, my management style when the day comes.
Speaker 2 (38:33):
Yeah, I think it's really important for people to ask themselves,
like what do I want out of my career? What
are the necessary steps to get there? But being a
manager doesn't necessarily make sense for everybody, and that's totally okay,
So I kind of like conscious unbossing.
Speaker 3 (38:48):
Yeah, I also really appreciate you being like as a manager.
That wasn't it for me, And I feel like other
people I work with at LinkedIn have acknowledged that as
well and just refreshting, like you think, oh, yeah, being
a manager is like that end all be all, and
then like I could imagine some people stay in that
role even if it's not fulfilling. So for people who
are open about it, you know, not being the right
fits really amazing because it's like, Okay, I don't need
(39:10):
to like become that person and love it and get
it one hundred percent right. Clearly, it's like just like
any other role, you know, there's so much pressure when
it comes to a manager. Obviously it's a big responsibility.
Speaker 2 (39:20):
But yeah, one thing about me, if it don't fit,
I'm gonna take it off.
Speaker 3 (39:23):
Shoe this is cinderellas Jesus a shoe the top.
Speaker 2 (39:28):
If I'm getting tracked up in there cut it out,
don't fit. So I guess like we are showing our
receipts and our receipts are both saying that we say
yes to conscious on bossing.
Speaker 3 (39:39):
Yeah, I support people who don't want to be it.
Speaker 2 (39:43):
I support whatever y'all support. Just be cute and ethical.
That's our neutral.
Speaker 3 (39:48):
But let us know what you guys think. If you're
gen Z, are you conscious on bossing? And if you're
like more millennial gen X, have you guys been managers?
If so, what was your experience like and what have
you learned from it? Would you be a manager again?
Speaker 2 (40:02):
Are you consciously on bossing as we speak? Let us
know either way. Thank you guys so much for listening
to this episode. I know it was a really neaty
and heavy episode, so thank you for sticking with us
through this delicious sandwich.
Speaker 3 (40:16):
And we're going to pack even more in the newsletter
this week. Make sure you guys are subscribed. It's called
Let's Talk Offline. You can find the link in the
show description. It's also in my LinkedIn bio and Jamay
and I would love to know what you guys are
taking away from this conversation, whether it be from shore
the receipts or conversation with Kayla. Let us know by
tagging us in a post on LinkedIn. We'll be sure
(40:37):
to meet you guys in the comments.
Speaker 2 (40:38):
Yes, please tag us. We would love to see also
definitely want to give a huge shout out to this
week's listener for their question. I hope that you guys
also see that if you want to send in a
question anonymously, we will honor that. Okay, we keep things
offline all right, so definitely send us your questions. Information
on how to do that is in the show description.
Speaker 3 (40:59):
On one last thing before you guys go, please rate
and review the show, give us a follow. We want
to hear from you. We want you coming back each week.
Do all the things, all the things, all the things
all right before you go, remember we've always got your back,
so if something comes up, Let's Talk Offline. I'm Gianna Prudenti.
Speaker 2 (41:19):
And I'm Jamaie Jackson Gadsden, Stay Thriving.
Speaker 3 (41:24):
Let's Talk Offline is a production of LinkedIn News and
iHeart Podcasts. The show is produced by Western Sound. Our
producer is Sabrina Fang. The show is edited by Savannah Wright,
our associate producer is Sarah Dilley, Alex mckinnis is our engineer,
and Ben Adair is the executive producer.
Speaker 2 (41:41):
Executive producers at iHeart Podcasts are Katrina Norvel and Nikki Etour.
We got support from LinkedIn's Jesse Humple, Sarah Storr and
Ayana Angel. Maya Pope Chappelle is director of Content, Dave
Pond is Head of News Production, Courtney Coop is Head
of Original Programming, and Dan and Wrong is the editor
in chief of LinkedIn
Speaker 4 (42:07):
M HM
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