January 7, 2025 • 41 mins
Depending on your industry, you may be weighing the pros and cons of going to grad school. Sure, it can give you more skills and increase your salary… but the time and tuition can also be a dealbreaker. In this episode, Gianna and Jamé chat with University of British Columbia educator Rob Kim about how to know if grad school is right for you.
Do you have any burning questions about work? We want to hear them! You can email us your questions at letstalkoffline@linkedin.com.
And thank you to Rob Kim for joining us this week! Follow Rob on LinkedIn (linkedin.com/in/robsungryongkim).
For more, follow Gianna (http://linkedin.com/in/giannaprudente) and Jamé (http://linkedin.com/in/jamejackson) on LinkedIn and subscribe to Gianna’s weekly newsletter: https://linkedin.com/letstalkoffline.
Credits
Gianna Prudente - Co-host, Early Career Development Editor, LinkedIn
Jamé Jackson - Co-host, Community Manager, LinkedIn
Sabrina Fang - Producer, Western Sound
Maya Pope-Chappell - Director of Content & Audience Development, LinkedIn
Jessi Hempel - Chief Content Officer, LinkedIn
Savannah Wright - Senior Producer, Western Sound
Sarah Dealy - Associate Producer, Western Sound
Alex MacInnis - Engineer, Western Sound
Courtney Coupe - Head of Original Programming, LinkedIn
Dan Roth - Editor in Chief, LinkedIn
Ben Adair - Executive Producer, Western Sound
Katrina Norvell - Executive Producer, iHeartMedia
Nikke Ettore - Executive Producer, iHeartMedia
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
LinkedIn News. I think that if we're going to address
the topic of this is an expensive degree, you need
to make it work for you. Okay, you don't need
to be out here going to school with one hundred
and fifteen thousand dollars student debt taking on a thirty
thousand dollars job. I'm so sorry, booboo, go get some
(00:22):
oysters you need. Yes, but seriously, like, you got to
make it work for you. Would I do it again?
I don't know, Little Spicy, I don't know.
Speaker 2 (00:33):
Should we leave it there? Should we get into it?
I think we get into it.
Speaker 1 (00:37):
I think we get into it.
Speaker 2 (00:40):
From LinkedIn News and I heard podcasts. This is Let's
Talk Offline, a show about what it takes to thrive
in the early years of your career without sacrificing your values, sanity,
or sleep. I'm Gianna Prudente.
Speaker 1 (00:54):
And I'm Jamaie Jackson Gadsden. So grad school should you go?
Should you skip it? You're all of us, at some
point in our careers have considered if going to grad
school is actually worth it. I mean, it's a really
big decision. But yeah, there are plenty of benefits to
pursuing grad school.
Speaker 2 (01:11):
But in today's market, there can be a lot of
cons too. You're probably thinking about the cost. You're asking yourself,
what would I gain if I went back to school,
or wondering if you even need another degree. Well, we're
going to break it all down and help you figure
out whether grad school is the right move for you.
(01:34):
So when I think about the decision to go to
grad school, there's a lot to figure out.
Speaker 1 (01:38):
To actually make the decision yes or no should I go.
Speaker 2 (01:41):
So later on in the show, we're going to bring
on career educator Rob Kim, who's going to talk to
us about what we need to figure out before making
that big decision. But before we talk to Rob, Jamay,
let's start the convo by talking about the pros and
cons of grad school as somebody who's gone to grad school.
Speaker 1 (01:57):
Right, Yes, yeah, I have a lot of opinions. But
let's just take like an aerial view of grad school.
Zoom right, let's a little zoom out. So there's a
number of pros I mean to start. You know, having
a higher education degree does make you more competitive in
your field. You also can gain specialized knowledge and skills,
which is always great no matter what industry you're in
(02:17):
there's always more to learn. Another pro that I will
add is if you are a student of the world, right,
if you just love to learn, Like, there's nothing like
being in a classroom setting, whether it's virtual or in person,
that I think you can just benefit from a number
of other things, like, for instance, you know, there's this
idea that as you continue to upskill, you also are
(02:39):
putting yourself in a position to make more money. Yeah,
and so you know, there's this idea that going to
grad school or getting you know, post secondary educations will
allow you to make more money. And then the last
thing I will just say as a pro is that
you do get to build community and networking. You know,
when I was in grad school, we actually transition into
a fully remote setting because the pandemic was happening.
Speaker 2 (02:59):
So I don't know, as you went to grad school recently, Yeah,
I went to grad.
Speaker 1 (03:02):
School in twenty twenty career nineteen eighteen. I love that
something I'm going backwards something like that, right, No, literally,
no concept. But it was really nice because then you
had people who you can lean on, you can talk
to that kind of kept you in routine, right, and
so like those are some of the pros. On the
flip side, there are equally as many cons. I think
(03:25):
that you should think about. First of all, we have
to talk about the costs. It is expensive. Yeah, I
say that as I literally just bought like an eight
hundred dollars bag. I saw it, I saw with her
own eye. But I'm serious. You know, grad school can
be really, really, really expensive, and you also risk incurring
long term debt. I mean nowadays, you know, with student
(03:45):
loans picking back up, like, it's a lot for people,
and sometimes you have to think if the reward outweighs
the risk. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (03:53):
I think that's what's really hard too, because I'm like,
is it gonna pay off or not?
Speaker 1 (03:57):
You know, like I want a distinct answer. I make
this big investment. Yeah, I'm gonna tell you my rule
of thumb in a second about that. But I definitely
agree that that is sort of the biggest hindrance I
think for people. Another one is time. Right on the
one hand, you know, you think, oh, hey, do I
need to go to grad school right after I've graduated,
because that's when you really have the time. But then
(04:18):
you also are like, but should I actually get out
into the workforce make some money? First and then go back.
But then how do I juggle having a full nine
to five?
Speaker 2 (04:26):
Who? Girl?
Speaker 1 (04:26):
There were people in my program who had kids who
are married, like I wasn't married at the time. I
was like, how are you doing all these things and
caring for yourself? Like this is a lot. And then
another thing is you might not even need an advanced degree.
I think it's really interesting now the conversation's happening around
how people are just getting real world experience and they're
applying that. I mean, even I think about my job
(04:49):
at LinkedIn. There are a number of my coworkers who
don't have a graduate degree and exactly right, and so
it's like it's almost this idea of like you will
always end up where you're supposed to be anyway. So
those are a couple of things that I think we
have to look out from the pros and the cons.
But gee, you're talking to gen Z all the time,
what are sort of the ideas and trends that they're
coming up with as far as like going to grad school?
(05:11):
Is it a thing? Is it a thing?
Speaker 2 (05:13):
Is it not?
Speaker 1 (05:13):
Is it canceled enough?
Speaker 3 (05:15):
You know?
Speaker 2 (05:16):
I actually was curious, like what the let's talk offline
community was thinking about grad school. So I put up
a pull in my profile asking gen zers to weigh
in on, like, what's the one thing that's holding you
back from going to grad school if you're considering it,
And unsurprisingly, the number one factor is the financial cost,
which you mentioned, and then that was followed by this
(05:38):
idea of like I don't know if it's going to
pay off, I'm not sure I need it, and then
the last one was the timing. So I think people
are definitely considering it, but that affordability aspect is always
going to be a barrier to entry, and as like
you were mentioning, like, as the cost of living just
continues to rise and rise, young people feel like they're
(05:59):
facing more financial barriers and.
Speaker 1 (06:02):
As a result, you're likely to forego higher education.
Speaker 2 (06:05):
And you know, I see a lot online now about
gen z going to trade school and kind of embracing
other ways to upscale than traditional education.
Speaker 1 (06:13):
Yeah. I love that a lot, because the same way
as we can talk about like nonlinear career paths, I
think that a lot of people are taking nonlinear education paths,
and I think at the end of the day, you
have to figure out what works for you, and I
think like the data is starting to back that up
as well. But we cannot, you know, underestimate the fact
that people want this. It's just expensive. So I'm not
(06:34):
going to ask Gianna you, my gen Zier, have you
ever considered going to grad school?
Speaker 2 (06:39):
Okay, So I have my experience with grad school is
you know, I've seen some of my friends go. So
a few friends have gone to grad school right after
undergrad because what they studied, you know, they decided, ooh,
I'm not pursuing this. I'm going to go to grad school,
get a different degree, and then go into my career.
And I think at the time I entered the workforce,
(07:01):
a lot of people in my age were going to
grad school immediately, kind of to shelter in place while
the economy worked its way out. But me, personally, I've
decided against it for now because I'm honestly not sure
what I would study. So right now I'm not too sure.
But I would love one day to be an adjunct professor.
So I'm assuming I'll need to get another degree to
(07:22):
be able to do that.
Speaker 1 (07:24):
I don't know.
Speaker 2 (07:25):
Yeah, but I'm all over the place. I'm like, should
I go to law school. Should I get my MBA.
Speaker 1 (07:29):
And you deserve to do those should you be a baker?
But I want to do everything.
Speaker 2 (07:34):
Yeah, the real one is like I really want to
go to culinary school or like patry school. So and
you can do all the above, yeah, but nonetheless it's
all expensive. So if somebody's trying to finance my second degree,
let me know, reach out to me on LinkedIn.
Speaker 1 (07:47):
I was gonna say, is someone gonna match Gianna's financial
free get the money?
Speaker 2 (07:52):
So okay, but now I want to know your experience
with grad school. So you went not too long ago,
right before the pandemic, and you studied the business of fashion, right, yes.
Speaker 1 (08:03):
So let's take a step back. So I went to
grad school about four years after I graduated undergrad. So
you know, I took the time, I got the world
world experience, and I started saying, okay, well, what programs
are out there that match where I'm at right now.
At that time, I was still doing a lot of
reporting in the fashion and beauty space, and so I
was like, it would be great to figure out some
(08:23):
skills that can apply to this industry. But I did
not want to go so niche that I siloed myself
from other opportunities because I've always known I'm going to
do other things. So I ended up studying at lam
College here in New York. I got an MPs, which
is a little bit different than in the Masters of Arts,
(08:43):
and MPs is a Master of Professional Studies. Essentially, what
it does is it combines the focused study of your
traditional grad degrees like an M or an MS, but
then you also started getting specialized industry specific skills. So
when I tell people that I have my MPs in
Business of Fashion, everyone focuses on the fashion part, right,
but really you can nix that fashion part off. It's
(09:04):
really like almost an NBA program. And that's exactly what
I wanted to do, right, because I have this really
unique opportunity where I get to sit sort of at
the fork between what corporate life looks like, but then
also what entrepreneurship life looks like. I knew that I
was going to be able to not only help whatever
company I worked for, but also me the biggest company
of all, you know what I mean. So I also
(09:27):
wanted to go to grad school to up my bag. Okay,
I wanted to be able to say, yeah, it's Jamay
Jackson MPs. Okay, put them a little letters behind my name.
You want that embroidered on that bag. You to pay
me for my goods and services, because you know, there
was this idea that going to grad school would allow
you to command more money now here. It was my
(09:49):
rule of thumb. I told myself, however much this master's
degree is about to cost me, that is the number.
Take that number and put it on my current salary.
And then and that's what my next salary needed to be.
I needed to pay for the degree. Yeah, and so
when I graduated and I started looking for new jobs,
I wasn't looking for anything less than that number. And girl,
(10:13):
you got it. I got it. I got it. But
like I mean, I mean, remember we think about, like
you know, manifestation, putting it out there and thinking on it.
But I think that if we're going to address the
topic of this is an expensive degree, you need to
make it work for you. Okay, you don't need to
be out here going to school with one hundred and
(10:34):
fifteen thousand dollars student debt taking on a thirty thousand
dollars job. I'm so sorry, booboo, go get some oysters.
You need, yes, but seriously, like you got to make
it work for you? Would I do it again? I
don't know, Little Spicy.
Speaker 3 (10:49):
I don't know it.
Speaker 1 (10:52):
I think we get into it. I think we get
into it. I'm thankful, But again when I think about
did I I need to do this to get where
I needed to get to? I don't know if that's
the truth. Also, I don't work in the fashion industry anymore.
Speaker 2 (11:08):
So are you saying that like you wantn't do it
again because of like, experience wise, it didn't you know,
help you get however, many steps ahead? But money wise
it did?
Speaker 1 (11:18):
I think money wise yes, the upskilling, But also could
I have done that through some online degrees? Could I
have done that going to community college and taking like
a couple of business courses? I mean, honestly, I think
those are the two things that I ask myself often.
It's like, girl, aside from the money, did you need
this to be able to do what you're doing? And
(11:39):
then also, you know, I'm equally as squirrely as you like,
I'm like, I want to do this today and then
tomorrow I want to be a superhero, and then I
want to do this next year. Figuring out well, what
am I going to study and put all this money behind?
Can be the challenge. And don't get me wrong, my
MPs helps me every single day out in business. I
know how to negotiate contracts, I know how to work
(11:59):
with brands. I know how to do all the things
that helped me Jammy Jackson, the actor, the creative. But
do did I need that to end up at LinkedIn?
Speaker 4 (12:08):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (12:09):
Don't necessarily think I needed to do that. In fact,
I know I didn't because there are people like you
who are equally as talented who did not get that training.
So it's a little bit of a double edged store. Plus,
like I didn't have any debt coming out of undergrad,
I have debt now, And I was like, oh gosh,
this is what y'all be talking about. I don't like that.
Welcome to the clubs to New net Just kidding. I'm
(12:29):
gonna pay my student loans.
Speaker 2 (12:30):
I appreciate your honesty.
Speaker 1 (12:35):
So is grad school in your future? If you're still
on the fence, don't worry, because we're about to talk
with career educator Rob Kim about how to decide whether
grad schools for you. After the break. All right, guys,
(12:57):
so we are back and we are talking all about
out grad school and if that is your ministry, if
you are called for it. Gianna and I could talk
about this all day long, but of course we had
to bring in a superstar who would help us answer
this question this week? Gianna, who do we have this
week for the people?
Speaker 2 (13:15):
I am so excited to bring on Rob Kim. He
is the Associate Director of Lifelong Learning at Alumni UBC
working at the University of British Columbia. He's an educator
and facilitator who believes in applying learning and development approaches
to support everyone's career and professional growth.
Speaker 1 (13:32):
Rob. Thanks so much for joining us.
Speaker 3 (13:34):
Thanks Rob, thanks for having me. First of all, I
just want to say I've enjoyed listening to the podcast
so far. I love how you're reaching out to gen Z.
You two have a great, hilarious dynamic, so I really
happy to be here.
Speaker 1 (13:46):
Thank you so much.
Speaker 2 (13:48):
We did not pay Rob to say that anyway.
Speaker 1 (13:51):
Thank you so much for coming on.
Speaker 2 (13:53):
Rob. We're so excited to chat to you about this
topic today. And I want to start because you went
to grad school, so I want to hear from your
experience and when you went to earn your master's in
educational and technology.
Speaker 1 (14:03):
What was going through your head? What encourage you to
pursue that degree.
Speaker 3 (14:07):
Yeah, that's a great question. I mean to be honest,
it was probably about the money, like money first, and
then like opportunity second. So I want to explain a
little bit though the money aspect. You know, I was
teaching at the time, and if you had a master's
you would actually go to a different pay scale, So
I figured, like, why wouldn't I get paid more to
do the same job, right? And then opportunity. I realized
(14:30):
I wanted to be a bit proactive with my career,
and I was figuring that I might go into administration
down the line, so like a vice principal for instance,
and you know, in order to do that you needed
your masters as a minimum. So those are the two
big things, and one other thing. I was going to
be married in a couple of years from them, and
I figured it'd be easier time for me to go
(14:50):
to school at that point.
Speaker 1 (14:52):
So what questions should other people be asking themselves if
they're thinking about going to grad school? But then also,
what are the signs that maybe grad school is not
the right option for you?
Speaker 3 (15:04):
You know, I think the questions obviously that you should
be asking are going to be based on your situation.
So when I worked with students around this, this is
actually the part where you do a lot of written reflection,
taking an inventory of your values, interests, and skills. And
this step is really important for you to then figure
out the type of questions you want to ask. You know,
(15:26):
if you don't know where you're at, like how can
you know where you want to go? And then I
think with that, I do this like three R framework
to generate questions from that, and that would be research, reality,
and ROI. So like the first is like research, you know,
what do I know about these programs? Who can I
talk to? So I mean like Gianna, for you, like
(15:47):
with a journalistic background, like what kind of question would
you ask when you're at that research phase if you're
deciding go to grad school, Like what would that sound
like for you?
Speaker 2 (15:55):
You know, I talked about this earlier because I said
to Jamay, like, I don't know what I would study
if I went to grad school. So I would be
curious from somebody who has a journalism background, who's surrounded
by people who maybe went to journalism school for their masters,
Like what would be the benefit to someone like me
earning an advanced degree and what kind of areas of
(16:17):
expertise could I explore in grad school that would complement
my undergrad degree?
Speaker 3 (16:21):
And see, I think that's a perfect question, right, because
I think sometimes when people are asking this, they think
there's that Okay, this question is going to tell me everything.
It's just more like curiosity figuring out where you are
and where you can get to a little bit. So
you know, that goes to that second, that reality. I
remember talking to a student once they're thinking about grad school,
and I just kind of asked, like, why do you
(16:42):
want to go into this program? And they had a
real tough time articulating the answer, right, and the reality
for this person, they were feeling lost, and therefore they thought,
you know, let's continue to do something safe, which is school,
Like I know this system, it's familiar to me in
many way allow them to avoid reality, right, that reality
(17:03):
of going out finding a job. So I think asking
those sort of questions what's actually real going on for
you is really important. And then the third one I
think about is the ROI right, that return on investment,
So to me, that's time and money, right, Like, how
much time can you dedicate for me? I was really
like clinical with my decision. I was like, I want
(17:24):
to work full time. I can't not have money coming in,
so what program is going to allow me to do that?
Like part time? So, like, time and money are really important,
and I think that's probably the biggest factor for most people.
Grad school is not cheap, right, you know, and it's
not working while going to school. It's a double whammy.
(17:44):
So I really get that conundrum lots of people are feeling.
Speaker 1 (17:48):
I really appreciate that you kind of gave us a
framework of questions that one should ask themselves, because you're
actually now making me think if you can't answer those things,
or if you can't kind of articulate the clear value
you would get, those might be the signs that you
maybe should reconsider grad school. So I really appreciate you
for saying that, because y'ah, check the signs, read the signs.
Speaker 3 (18:10):
That's right.
Speaker 2 (18:11):
Yeah, And I love that it's not a one size
fits all approach, which I think people want. Like selfishly,
I'm like, Okay, what are the questions I got asked myself?
But I am wondering, are there certain professions where going
to grad school will benefit you more than in a
different industry, Like will it give you a competitive edge
if you work in XYZ industry?
Speaker 3 (18:29):
Yeah, you know, I think obviously there's going to be
some schools that are going to give you competitive edge, right,
especially if we're talking professional programs where it's like a
clear outcome to a position. But you know, it's hard
to predict the job market, right. I remember a friend
of mine many years ago, like they were doing their
masters in electrical engineering. Tech was really big at the time,
(18:50):
and when you graduate, the tech sector had bottomed out.
So I think the value of the like any graduate program,
is a little bit more of like what are the
skills you're building? What's the network? Is there experiential learning involved?
Is there a project or internship component? Is there portfolio
being produced?
Speaker 1 (19:08):
Like?
Speaker 3 (19:08):
These are things that are all potential evidence for future employers. Now.
I think maybe ten twenty years ago we could have said, yes,
it gives you competitive edge, but we are seeing now
that some companies are moving to a skill based hiring approach.
Right before it used to be like must have undergrad
masters required, you're seeing them remove these sort of things.
(19:30):
So I think that competitive edge is maybe being a
little bit diluted certainly. But I think again it goes
back to that ROI you really want to consider do
I want to dedicate this time and money knowing that
there's no certainty? So am I still going to get
value of expanding my mind, my horizons, those things that
learning can give us. Yeah? Great, but it's tough to say, right.
Speaker 1 (19:53):
Yeah. So like let's say someone you know, they're listening
still and they're like, Okay, no, I know I want
to go to grad at school, but like I don't
even know where to start as far like how to
look for the graduate program? What steps would you give
on how they can determine what program is right for them?
Speaker 3 (20:10):
Well, you know, it's kind of funny when I am
doing some of these queer conversations with people, it actually
is some big picture questions, you know, and so it's
figuring out kind of what the deal breakers are for you. So,
you know, cost is a big one. I think that's
a really it's okay to start there. Sometimes I think
(20:30):
geographic location you be surprised sometimes of like some people
aren't really thinking about, like, you know, if family is
really important to your community some people want that adventure,
and other people are like, oh, even though they targeted
the school, they haven't really realized like you're on the
other side now, the coast, Like it's a big thing, right,
(20:51):
And then I think what's really important I think for
gen Z is like that values alignment. Does this program
represent the impact I'm seeking to make? Can I see
that people graduating from this program are actually doing the
work that I hope to do? These sort of things,
and I think these are some of the things I'd
be thinking about, you know, then we can get into
(21:11):
of course, like the type of school, the names, these
sort of things that I always like to start with
some of these broader questions because you'd be surprised at
how quickly, you know, people kind of stop or start
from those.
Speaker 1 (21:21):
Yeah, are there any other questions that you think, like,
you know, particularly if you're meeting with like either program directors,
maybe you have friends or you know, former colleagues who
are now in some of the programs that you're evaluating,
that other questions that people should be asking so that
they can kind of make a strong call on whether
this is the right choice for them or not.
Speaker 3 (21:39):
Yeah, I mean, I think that's kind of like informational interviews.
You're trying to get maybe the insight that's not showing
up on the profile of the school page showing up
in the media. So maybe that's with students. I think
is again, what are sort of the resources available? Did
you feel support as a student? I would be keen
to see if there's experiential learning embedded, you know. To me, again,
(22:03):
those are some great advantages. How is their graduate alumni support? Right?
Do they have program that connects you with these alumni?
Do they have mentorship programs? Like I would be looking
at all the other systems around that to get real
value from my degree. And you know, classroom, the professors, yes,
that all matters, but it's the infrastructure, right that is
(22:25):
going to take that degree up a level. We all
know that, right, So you're just trying to get a
clearer picture to help you make a better decision.
Speaker 1 (22:35):
Yeah, I love that all right, Rob.
Speaker 2 (22:37):
Since you've been listening to the show, you know, we
have our dear Work Bestie segment where we bring up
a listener question, so got to throw it at you.
This week's comes from Kelly in California.
Speaker 4 (22:47):
I just graduated from college and have always thought about
getting a master's degree. I'm still on the fence about
whether to go to grad school, but I'm worried that
if I wait too long to make a decision, it
might be harder to get into a good school. Is
there ever a right or best time to go back
to school?
Speaker 1 (23:03):
What do you think? Rob Ooh love this question.
Speaker 3 (23:05):
Oh that's a good question, Kelly, I'm hearing a little
bit like this is a legit concern, right, Is it
ever right time to go back to school? But I
would maybe see if we need to address a little
bit of the sitting on a fence issue first, right,
because you know, once you can figure out what your
commitment is, then you can take that action. And one
way I kind of do that as a favorite coaching
(23:26):
exercise of mine is kind of you unearth kind of
where you're sitting with the head, heart and gut method.
I don't know if you've ever done this before, Jamay,
I know you have some really good acting skills. So
let's do like a little bit of a role play here.
And you can do this with a friend or you
can do it with yourself. But Jama, let's say you're
(23:46):
not sure about doing a master's and so I want
you to just respond with a yes, maybe or no,
don't overthink it, okay. So the first one is I
want you to touch your head and what does your
head say about grad school? No? Okay? Now I want
you to touch your heart and what does your heart
say about grad school?
Speaker 1 (24:06):
Maybe?
Speaker 3 (24:06):
Okay? And then I want you to touch your gut
and what did your gut say about grad school?
Speaker 1 (24:12):
No?
Speaker 3 (24:13):
Okay? So I like that because now you get to
sit down and really figure out, Okay, what am I hearing? No? Maybe?
Speaker 2 (24:20):
No?
Speaker 1 (24:20):
Right?
Speaker 3 (24:21):
In this case, it almost might be even clear, like
maybe this is not for me, maybe my heart saying
I want to learn. I want to, but it's not
for me right now. So I really like this. I
use this all the time for like exercise on any
big decisions. And so I would maybe say to Kelly,
try this first to see where you are, because if
(24:42):
you're sitting on the fence, then there's never a right time.
Speaker 1 (24:45):
Rob. Can I ask a question though, because I mean,
first of all, that was such a wonderful exercise. If
you are a chronic overthinker, as Gianna and I have
both admitted many times on this podcast that we are,
sometimes I think you can start figuring out. Okay, so
what should I be listening to? Should I be listening
to my head? Should I be listening to my heart?
Is my gut? Do I have indigestion? What is happening today?
Speaker 2 (25:08):
Like?
Speaker 1 (25:08):
What is the marker here? Like if you're getting a
signal from one thing and it's and it kind of
is different than another, what's the indicator here?
Speaker 2 (25:15):
Yeah?
Speaker 3 (25:15):
I think what you're asking almost like tell me. So
I think what I like about this exercise is open
to interpretation because you can, after you have a discussion,
you say, you know, what I really value my rational side.
It's been something that I've really leveraged and worked on,
you know, and has helped me. So you might really
(25:36):
lend more weight to what your head says. So it's
really up to your interpretation. I mean, it's super easy
when it's all no, you know in the ayah. I've
had a situations where it's maybe maybe maybe, So it
feels like again it's a mess, But it's an interesting
jumping point because then you can ask questions like, well,
what would it take for your heart to say yes
(25:57):
right or no? Right? So I love this exercise and
again you can do it yourself. I've done it many
times where I'm stuck and I'll literally say okay, Rob
and just do that just to help me feel a
little bit better.
Speaker 1 (26:11):
I love that.
Speaker 2 (26:12):
I want to ask a quick follow up, Rob, before
we move on from Kelly's question, because you know, she
mentions that she waits too long it might be harder
to get.
Speaker 1 (26:21):
Into a good school.
Speaker 2 (26:22):
What do you think about that as their truth to that.
Speaker 3 (26:25):
I mean, I'll be honest, I don't think so I
get it, and I mean I'm old. It's just my
brain doesn't work as fastener. So I think I think
there's that value. But I mean, we see people getting
to school doing school at different time. I still think
there's a little bit. When I hear these sort of questions,
it's more of like, I'm stuck and it's scary. It
(26:46):
is scary, right. Our brains crave certainty, which is really
ironic because you're never certain, and so I appreciate what
she's asking, but it's not that you're going to miss
this window or something like that.
Speaker 1 (26:59):
Yeah, So, Rob, We've talked a little bit about some
of the indicators of grad school, one of them being
like people want to go because they hope that it'll
lead them to a bigger bag. But we have to
also admit that what stops a lot of people from
going to grad school is exactly that money. From your perspective,
are there any like financial resources or options that people
(27:19):
can sort of look into if they have decided grad
school is my yes, I just got to figure out
how I'm a finance it.
Speaker 3 (27:26):
I mean, one option is you can get a Canadian
citizenship because tuition is really cheap for domestic students. Okay
with that, it is much cheaper if you look at
Educate Higher ed up.
Speaker 1 (27:37):
Here and my cousins in Canada, and they say that
all the time.
Speaker 3 (27:40):
It really is, you know, this is where actually I
think you have to be a little bit proactive. I
always think about my sister. She's like a go getter
compared to me, And I remember in her grade twelve
years she was like she was applying to all these
little scholarships, these bursts, like all these things and just
a mass, like, you know, collectively a good amount. And
I always thought about that, how it's really figuring out
(28:03):
what's out there? Right, So, like, are there programs that
support you if you fall into like an equity like
serving group. Right, have you looked into different associations and
scholarship programs. I think about one like, I have a disability.
I've worked with this organization Line Connect. They offer like
a ton of scholarship opportunities for people with disability. Right,
(28:24):
So it's knowing what's out there. I think of often
with these programs, I'll have bursaries attached them, not scholarship,
just like small ad bursaries to help, you know, bring
costs down. Schools will have financial structures in place to
help you out as well. If you're doing research graduate programs,
then you you know you're going to get a little
bit of stipend these sort of things that will cover
(28:46):
some of the costs, but you know there there are
ways to at least lower that that damage, right, Yeah,
hopefully hopefully.
Speaker 1 (28:53):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (28:54):
You mentioned earlier that we're in a strange top job
market right now. It's continuing to change, and one part
of going to grad school is that, yes, employers are
now increasingly hiring by skills. But the other side of
that is, you know, when you come out with the
advanced degree, it might mean they got to pay you more.
(29:15):
And that's part of the reason why you and Jimmy
you know, went to grad school.
Speaker 1 (29:19):
But some might.
Speaker 2 (29:20):
Argue that companies are overlooking people with advanced degrees because
of that, right, because they have to pay them more.
So what are your thoughts on that and how might
someone overcome this barrier to show that they're a candidate
worth hiring, They're worth you know, the extra however much.
Speaker 3 (29:36):
I would really say to people, kind of focus on
what you can control, Like, look, will there be a
scenario that you're going to be overlooked due to cost, Yes,
that sucks, but at the same time, like that's sometimes
out of your control. So I would be you know
you mentioned in a previous podcast, like your personal brand,
Like I would be working on my personal brand, being
(29:56):
clear of how my degree provides me value, how I
would be worth that cost, that additional cost. Right, maybe
I have the ability to do more complex research that
they weren't anticipating. Maybe I need to demonstrate how I'm
going to apply my learning in novel ways. So those
are things I can control my personal brand and how
(30:17):
I show up, because all I'm trying to do is
I'm trying to convince the hiring people that I'm worth
that value. That additional cost, right.
Speaker 1 (30:26):
Yeah, you have to be able to articulate your value
and the value that you bring. And I appreciate that because,
I mean, there is a quantifiable value of how much
you've spent on your graduate program, you know. I think
one of the things that I often get scared of
are people who are going and paying all this money
for a graduate program to enter into markets that do
not pay well. Like you just spend one hundred and
(30:48):
twenty thousand dollars on a graduate on a master's degree,
and then you're going to go take a thirty five
thousand dollar job. The silence is so loud.
Speaker 3 (30:56):
Well, I mean it's that I think Chris Rock had
like a joke of like, you know that a job's
a good job is someone's going to pay you for it, right,
So sometimes it is doing that job market research, which
is why again I think it's like focusing on those skills,
understanding how you can transfer them, and like understanding of
your brand. Like if you can't speak to your brand,
I don't care how many degrees you have, You're not
(31:16):
going to convince someone to hire you. So it's that storytelling,
that practice, the reflection that we talked about at the
very beginning. Those are all part and parcel. Like, if
you can't articulate your values, your skills, your interests, I
mean you're going to have a hard time convincing someone
to hire you, right in any.
Speaker 1 (31:34):
Regard, definitely, Well, that is such a great note to
end on all.
Speaker 2 (31:38):
You know, we love talking about personal branding, so we
could keep talking about this forever. But you gave me
a lot to think about, Rob. I know, as I
you know, think about the idea of grad school, but
my gut was saying, no, so I gotta go back
and do this exercise again.
Speaker 1 (31:50):
No, I was going to say, You've given me a
lot to think about because I'm the crazy lady who
wants to go back to school again because that's just
I love learning. Well, Rob, where can we find you?
Where can people connect with you?
Speaker 3 (32:00):
Yeah, you can find me at alumni, dot UBC, dot CA,
backslash Careers. I'm the Associate director of Lifelong Learning, so
we do a lot of programming for people on a
range of career topics from job search to you know,
understanding what recruiters are looking for. So you can go
there and actually anyone, you don't have to be UBC alumni.
(32:21):
You don't have to go to UBC and I'm personally
I'm on LinkedIn all the time, so you can find
me there and connect with me there.
Speaker 1 (32:28):
Sweet guys, all of his information will be down in
the show description, so make sure you check it out.
Thank you, Rob, We appreciate job.
Speaker 3 (32:34):
No problem.
Speaker 2 (32:37):
So Rob drops some great advice. Going back to school
isn't an easy decision, but we hope this combo helps
point you in the right direction after the break. It's
great to have workplace friends, but how about enemies. Ooh,
that's next thing I'm really taking away from our conversation,
(33:03):
which doesn't seem so groundbreaking, but it's this idea that,
like going to grad school, that decision is not so
black and white. There's no one size fits all approach,
and it really comes down to the individual. I think
you guys know me by now, like I do not
play well in the gray.
Speaker 1 (33:18):
I love a.
Speaker 2 (33:18):
Black and white situation, but this really is something that
takes thoughtful consideration and asking yourself questions, and like you
and Rob were kind of saying, if you can't answer,
like why I want to go, it's probably just not
the right.
Speaker 1 (33:32):
Decision for you. Yeah, I think, like that's such a
great framework for anything in life. Right, Like I loved
the head heart Gut exercise. It was so nice and
it was grounding also, but to do it, yeah, I
was like breathing. I was like, wow, look at me
breathing because be so groundbreaking. But like, I definitely think
like head, heart gut is a way that you can
(33:53):
kind of just do checks with yourself about anything. Yeah,
but definitely for a decision that is this big. And
then also I think what's really important here is just
to remember, like your career for most people is going
to be nonlinear, and so you really want to take
into consideration. Is the decision that I'm making today for
grad school gonna set me up for who I may
(34:14):
be down the road. Remember we talked all about the
personal branding episode, Like you are allowed to evolve, and
your brand is going to evolve. You want to make
sure that your education is in alignment with that gradual
progression as well. Yeah, you know, I love.
Speaker 2 (34:25):
That you said there's other ways to upscale and like
boost your education, because yes, being like a lifelong learner
like Rob is so important and that's especially important in
today's workforce. But there's other ways to do it than earning,
you know, your master's degree.
Speaker 1 (34:41):
Yeah, I agree. Well, look, you know grad school is expensive,
and you got to keep those receipts. Speaking of them,
let's talk about show the receipts. This is our segment
where we get to look at the latest workplace trends
and headlines, maybe even some workplace myths and see if
there's any truth to them. Now, geez, what are we
talking about today? Okay?
Speaker 2 (35:02):
Today the topic is the benefits of a work Please
enemy Jessy, oh, Jamy looks dead inside.
Speaker 1 (35:09):
Okay, we are enemies.
Speaker 4 (35:11):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (35:12):
So Slate published an article titled having an enemy at
work might help you get ahead immediately grab my attention,
and it presents the idea of the anti mentor.
Speaker 1 (35:23):
So an anti mentor what does that? Yeah, thank you?
Speaker 2 (35:26):
P asking is somebody who shows you what not to
do at work. So, for example, maybe they're a coworker
who's like really bad at communicating, or a manager who
just like does not fulfill their promises.
Speaker 1 (35:38):
So they're also those.
Speaker 2 (35:40):
People who are just like annoying to work with. I
don't know that you say you like hate these people,
because my mom always said he is a strong word,
but you definitely like you know you you just like
some people. But they're important. These anti mentors are important
because they help shape your values about work and the
kind of leader or colleague you want to be. Okay,
so lots to think about here. What do you think
(36:00):
is there any truth to this idea that a workplace
enemy can actually be a good thing?
Speaker 1 (36:04):
And do you have enemies? Am I one of them?
Let's leave Gianna at home, let's see Okay. So to
bring it back to one of my favorite topics on
the podcast, I guess you gotta kiss a couple of
bad frogs. I guess to get to your pa say
(36:25):
that they say that they don't be kissing no frogs.
That's nasty. But I do think that sometimes seeing people
or experiencing people that you know, you're like, yeah, not
my ministry, not my vibe, no, helps inform you of
like what you are looking for. It's the same thing
as like when we were talking about, like in our
manager episode, having bad managers is actually a great way
(36:49):
for you to see like what you would not want
to do should you ever become a manager or if
you're getting a new manager. Some of the boundaries that
you want to set right. So I do think that
there's some truth to this. I think that there is
some validity in this idea of seeing people as either
people who are directly impacting you or people who indirectly
educate you on things that you don't want. And yeah,
(37:11):
I've had a couple of people, you know, throughout my
career and stuff that I'm just like, ooh, yeah, what
do you think. I feel like Gianna doesn't have enemies
that you know of I want you to tap into.
They don't right, they don't know. No, just never let
them see you come and gee, yeah, so I agree
with you. I'm signing off on all your receipts.
Speaker 2 (37:29):
But I think the term anti mentor just seems a
bit dramatic to me because it's like a little bit scary.
Speaker 1 (37:36):
I'm like, oh, it's definitely given like dark shadowy figure
in like a dark alley thing. You know, you love
your horror, so that's all for you.
Speaker 2 (37:43):
But yeah, I just think I do agree that if
there's somebody who you work with who is kind of
showing you ways not to do things because you notice
they're bad at communicating, and other people kind of have
picked up on that. Then I think it's informative and
I think that's helpful. But where I think you got
to drop the line is like when that person becomes
toxic or if they're like your manager who is blocking
(38:06):
your career growth, then that is just not a good situation.
There's no benefit to having that person, right.
Speaker 1 (38:13):
Yeah, exactly, And I think like that's sort of like
the cautionary tale here, right, like know when to tell
the difference, no, when to use something as inspiration versus
when it is actually impeding on your career growth. Yeah, okay,
so I guess the receipts are out, Like we both
think that like an anti mentor, I mean, even though
we could probably relabel that let's talk offline about that.
(38:35):
But like, I think an anti mentor is beneficial in
the sense of it showing you what you don't want
to do or be, but be cautionary about it. Don't
allow this to affect you in your workplace. Know how
to pivot should that arise. Yeah, I agree. Well, I
would love to know from you all if you all
have anti mentors in your life. Thank you guys so much.
(38:58):
I know still all the tea let us know. But
also thank you guys so much for listening for this episode.
Speaker 2 (39:03):
Yes, thank you guys, and make sure if you're not
already following our newsletter. It's called Let's Talk Upline. You
can find the link in the show description. It's also
in my LinkedIn bio. We want to hear what you
guys thought of the episode this week, so let us
know by sharing a post on LinkedIn, you get tag
Jamy and I will meet you there in the comments.
Speaker 1 (39:20):
Let's discuss. Let's to discuss with our work besties.
Speaker 2 (39:23):
To be sure to join us in the comments. We
want to hear from all you work besties.
Speaker 1 (39:27):
Some of you all may be anti mentors. How about that?
God ah, that's the gag anyway, Kelly, thank you so
much for sending in your question this week. I'm so
thankful for you. Also, you all can be just like Kellen.
You can send us your questions. Information on how to
do that is also in the show description.
Speaker 2 (39:44):
That show description tease has been so much softer.
Speaker 1 (39:47):
Because I feel like they're getting it. But if you're
not getting in the show description, sorry guys, Sorry I
asked for it.
Speaker 2 (39:56):
Also, make sure you guys are rating and following the show.
Speaker 1 (39:59):
Leave us a review.
Speaker 2 (40:00):
We'd love to hear from you and make sure you're
following if you're not already, so that you get notified
when an episode drops each week before you go. Remember
we've always got your back, so if something comes up.
Speaker 1 (40:12):
Let's Talk Offline.
Speaker 2 (40:14):
I'm Jonni Perdenti.
Speaker 1 (40:15):
And I'm Jamay Jackson Gadston Stay Thriving.
Speaker 2 (40:20):
Let's Talk Offline is a production of LinkedIn News and
iHeart Podcasts. The show is produced by Western Sound. Our
producer is Sabrina Fang. The show is edited by Savannah Wright.
Our associate producer is Sarah Dilley. Alex mckinnis is our engineer,
and Ben Adair is the executive producer.
Speaker 1 (40:36):
Executive producers at iHeart Podcasts are Katrina Norvel and Nikki Etoor.
We got support from LinkedIn's Jesse Humple, Sarah Storm, and
Ayana Angel. Maya Pope. Chappelle is director of Content, Dave
Pond is Head of News Production, Courtney Coop is head
of Original Programming, and Dan Roth is the editor in
(40:56):
chief of LinkedIn
Speaker 3 (41:00):
Firefox
LinkedIn News. I think that if we're going to address
the topic of this is an expensive degree, you need
to make it work for you. Okay, you don't need
to be out here going to school with one hundred
and fifteen thousand dollars student debt taking on a thirty
thousand dollars job. I'm so sorry, booboo, go get some
(00:22):
oysters you need. Yes, but seriously, like, you got to
make it work for you. Would I do it again?
I don't know, Little Spicy, I don't know.
Speaker 2 (00:33):
Should we leave it there? Should we get into it?
I think we get into it.
Speaker 1 (00:37):
I think we get into it.
Speaker 2 (00:40):
From LinkedIn News and I heard podcasts. This is Let's
Talk Offline, a show about what it takes to thrive
in the early years of your career without sacrificing your values, sanity,
or sleep. I'm Gianna Prudente.
Speaker 1 (00:54):
And I'm Jamaie Jackson Gadsden. So grad school should you go?
Should you skip it? You're all of us, at some
point in our careers have considered if going to grad
school is actually worth it. I mean, it's a really
big decision. But yeah, there are plenty of benefits to
pursuing grad school.
Speaker 2 (01:11):
But in today's market, there can be a lot of
cons too. You're probably thinking about the cost. You're asking yourself,
what would I gain if I went back to school,
or wondering if you even need another degree. Well, we're
going to break it all down and help you figure
out whether grad school is the right move for you.
(01:34):
So when I think about the decision to go to
grad school, there's a lot to figure out.
Speaker 1 (01:38):
To actually make the decision yes or no should I go.
Speaker 2 (01:41):
So later on in the show, we're going to bring
on career educator Rob Kim, who's going to talk to
us about what we need to figure out before making
that big decision. But before we talk to Rob, Jamay,
let's start the convo by talking about the pros and
cons of grad school as somebody who's gone to grad school.
Speaker 1 (01:57):
Right, Yes, yeah, I have a lot of opinions. But
let's just take like an aerial view of grad school.
Zoom right, let's a little zoom out. So there's a
number of pros I mean to start. You know, having
a higher education degree does make you more competitive in
your field. You also can gain specialized knowledge and skills,
which is always great no matter what industry you're in
(02:17):
there's always more to learn. Another pro that I will
add is if you are a student of the world, right,
if you just love to learn, Like, there's nothing like
being in a classroom setting, whether it's virtual or in person,
that I think you can just benefit from a number
of other things, like, for instance, you know, there's this
idea that as you continue to upskill, you also are
(02:39):
putting yourself in a position to make more money. Yeah,
and so you know, there's this idea that going to
grad school or getting you know, post secondary educations will
allow you to make more money. And then the last
thing I will just say as a pro is that
you do get to build community and networking. You know,
when I was in grad school, we actually transition into
a fully remote setting because the pandemic was happening.
Speaker 2 (02:59):
So I don't know, as you went to grad school recently, Yeah,
I went to grad.
Speaker 1 (03:02):
School in twenty twenty career nineteen eighteen. I love that
something I'm going backwards something like that, right, No, literally,
no concept. But it was really nice because then you
had people who you can lean on, you can talk
to that kind of kept you in routine, right, and
so like those are some of the pros. On the
flip side, there are equally as many cons. I think
(03:25):
that you should think about. First of all, we have
to talk about the costs. It is expensive. Yeah, I
say that as I literally just bought like an eight
hundred dollars bag. I saw it, I saw with her
own eye. But I'm serious. You know, grad school can
be really, really, really expensive, and you also risk incurring
long term debt. I mean nowadays, you know, with student
(03:45):
loans picking back up, like, it's a lot for people,
and sometimes you have to think if the reward outweighs
the risk. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (03:53):
I think that's what's really hard too, because I'm like,
is it gonna pay off or not?
Speaker 1 (03:57):
You know, like I want a distinct answer. I make
this big investment. Yeah, I'm gonna tell you my rule
of thumb in a second about that. But I definitely
agree that that is sort of the biggest hindrance I
think for people. Another one is time. Right on the
one hand, you know, you think, oh, hey, do I
need to go to grad school right after I've graduated,
because that's when you really have the time. But then
(04:18):
you also are like, but should I actually get out
into the workforce make some money? First and then go back.
But then how do I juggle having a full nine
to five?
Speaker 2 (04:26):
Who? Girl?
Speaker 1 (04:26):
There were people in my program who had kids who
are married, like I wasn't married at the time. I
was like, how are you doing all these things and
caring for yourself? Like this is a lot. And then
another thing is you might not even need an advanced degree.
I think it's really interesting now the conversation's happening around
how people are just getting real world experience and they're
applying that. I mean, even I think about my job
(04:49):
at LinkedIn. There are a number of my coworkers who
don't have a graduate degree and exactly right, and so
it's like it's almost this idea of like you will
always end up where you're supposed to be anyway. So
those are a couple of things that I think we
have to look out from the pros and the cons.
But gee, you're talking to gen Z all the time,
what are sort of the ideas and trends that they're
coming up with as far as like going to grad school?
(05:11):
Is it a thing? Is it a thing?
Speaker 2 (05:13):
Is it not?
Speaker 1 (05:13):
Is it canceled enough?
Speaker 3 (05:15):
You know?
Speaker 2 (05:16):
I actually was curious, like what the let's talk offline
community was thinking about grad school. So I put up
a pull in my profile asking gen zers to weigh
in on, like, what's the one thing that's holding you
back from going to grad school if you're considering it,
And unsurprisingly, the number one factor is the financial cost,
which you mentioned, and then that was followed by this
(05:38):
idea of like I don't know if it's going to
pay off, I'm not sure I need it, and then
the last one was the timing. So I think people
are definitely considering it, but that affordability aspect is always
going to be a barrier to entry, and as like
you were mentioning, like, as the cost of living just
continues to rise and rise, young people feel like they're
(05:59):
facing more financial barriers and.
Speaker 1 (06:02):
As a result, you're likely to forego higher education.
Speaker 2 (06:05):
And you know, I see a lot online now about
gen z going to trade school and kind of embracing
other ways to upscale than traditional education.
Speaker 1 (06:13):
Yeah. I love that a lot, because the same way
as we can talk about like nonlinear career paths, I
think that a lot of people are taking nonlinear education paths,
and I think at the end of the day, you
have to figure out what works for you, and I
think like the data is starting to back that up
as well. But we cannot, you know, underestimate the fact
that people want this. It's just expensive. So I'm not
(06:34):
going to ask Gianna you, my gen Zier, have you
ever considered going to grad school?
Speaker 2 (06:39):
Okay, So I have my experience with grad school is
you know, I've seen some of my friends go. So
a few friends have gone to grad school right after
undergrad because what they studied, you know, they decided, ooh,
I'm not pursuing this. I'm going to go to grad school,
get a different degree, and then go into my career.
And I think at the time I entered the workforce,
(07:01):
a lot of people in my age were going to
grad school immediately, kind of to shelter in place while
the economy worked its way out. But me, personally, I've
decided against it for now because I'm honestly not sure
what I would study. So right now I'm not too sure.
But I would love one day to be an adjunct professor.
So I'm assuming I'll need to get another degree to
(07:22):
be able to do that.
Speaker 1 (07:24):
I don't know.
Speaker 2 (07:25):
Yeah, but I'm all over the place. I'm like, should
I go to law school. Should I get my MBA.
Speaker 1 (07:29):
And you deserve to do those should you be a baker?
But I want to do everything.
Speaker 2 (07:34):
Yeah, the real one is like I really want to
go to culinary school or like patry school. So and
you can do all the above, yeah, but nonetheless it's
all expensive. So if somebody's trying to finance my second degree,
let me know, reach out to me on LinkedIn.
Speaker 1 (07:47):
I was gonna say, is someone gonna match Gianna's financial
free get the money?
Speaker 2 (07:52):
So okay, but now I want to know your experience
with grad school. So you went not too long ago,
right before the pandemic, and you studied the business of fashion, right, yes.
Speaker 1 (08:03):
So let's take a step back. So I went to
grad school about four years after I graduated undergrad. So
you know, I took the time, I got the world
world experience, and I started saying, okay, well, what programs
are out there that match where I'm at right now.
At that time, I was still doing a lot of
reporting in the fashion and beauty space, and so I
was like, it would be great to figure out some
(08:23):
skills that can apply to this industry. But I did
not want to go so niche that I siloed myself
from other opportunities because I've always known I'm going to
do other things. So I ended up studying at lam
College here in New York. I got an MPs, which
is a little bit different than in the Masters of Arts,
(08:43):
and MPs is a Master of Professional Studies. Essentially, what
it does is it combines the focused study of your
traditional grad degrees like an M or an MS, but
then you also started getting specialized industry specific skills. So
when I tell people that I have my MPs in
Business of Fashion, everyone focuses on the fashion part, right,
but really you can nix that fashion part off. It's
(09:04):
really like almost an NBA program. And that's exactly what
I wanted to do, right, because I have this really
unique opportunity where I get to sit sort of at
the fork between what corporate life looks like, but then
also what entrepreneurship life looks like. I knew that I
was going to be able to not only help whatever
company I worked for, but also me the biggest company
of all, you know what I mean. So I also
(09:27):
wanted to go to grad school to up my bag. Okay,
I wanted to be able to say, yeah, it's Jamay
Jackson MPs. Okay, put them a little letters behind my name.
You want that embroidered on that bag. You to pay
me for my goods and services, because you know, there
was this idea that going to grad school would allow
you to command more money now here. It was my
(09:49):
rule of thumb. I told myself, however much this master's
degree is about to cost me, that is the number.
Take that number and put it on my current salary.
And then and that's what my next salary needed to be.
I needed to pay for the degree. Yeah, and so
when I graduated and I started looking for new jobs,
I wasn't looking for anything less than that number. And girl,
(10:13):
you got it. I got it. I got it. But
like I mean, I mean, remember we think about, like
you know, manifestation, putting it out there and thinking on it.
But I think that if we're going to address the
topic of this is an expensive degree, you need to
make it work for you. Okay, you don't need to
be out here going to school with one hundred and
(10:34):
fifteen thousand dollars student debt taking on a thirty thousand
dollars job. I'm so sorry, booboo, go get some oysters.
You need, yes, but seriously, like you got to make
it work for you? Would I do it again? I
don't know, Little Spicy.
Speaker 3 (10:49):
I don't know it.
Speaker 1 (10:52):
I think we get into it. I think we get
into it. I'm thankful, But again when I think about
did I I need to do this to get where
I needed to get to? I don't know if that's
the truth. Also, I don't work in the fashion industry anymore.
Speaker 2 (11:08):
So are you saying that like you wantn't do it
again because of like, experience wise, it didn't you know,
help you get however, many steps ahead? But money wise
it did?
Speaker 1 (11:18):
I think money wise yes, the upskilling, But also could
I have done that through some online degrees? Could I
have done that going to community college and taking like
a couple of business courses? I mean, honestly, I think
those are the two things that I ask myself often.
It's like, girl, aside from the money, did you need
this to be able to do what you're doing? And
(11:39):
then also, you know, I'm equally as squirrely as you like,
I'm like, I want to do this today and then
tomorrow I want to be a superhero, and then I
want to do this next year. Figuring out well, what
am I going to study and put all this money behind?
Can be the challenge. And don't get me wrong, my
MPs helps me every single day out in business. I
know how to negotiate contracts, I know how to work
(11:59):
with brands. I know how to do all the things
that helped me Jammy Jackson, the actor, the creative. But
do did I need that to end up at LinkedIn?
Speaker 4 (12:08):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (12:09):
Don't necessarily think I needed to do that. In fact,
I know I didn't because there are people like you
who are equally as talented who did not get that training.
So it's a little bit of a double edged store. Plus,
like I didn't have any debt coming out of undergrad,
I have debt now, And I was like, oh gosh,
this is what y'all be talking about. I don't like that.
Welcome to the clubs to New net Just kidding. I'm
(12:29):
gonna pay my student loans.
Speaker 2 (12:30):
I appreciate your honesty.
Speaker 1 (12:35):
So is grad school in your future? If you're still
on the fence, don't worry, because we're about to talk
with career educator Rob Kim about how to decide whether
grad schools for you. After the break. All right, guys,
(12:57):
so we are back and we are talking all about
out grad school and if that is your ministry, if
you are called for it. Gianna and I could talk
about this all day long, but of course we had
to bring in a superstar who would help us answer
this question this week? Gianna, who do we have this
week for the people?
Speaker 2 (13:15):
I am so excited to bring on Rob Kim. He
is the Associate Director of Lifelong Learning at Alumni UBC
working at the University of British Columbia. He's an educator
and facilitator who believes in applying learning and development approaches
to support everyone's career and professional growth.
Speaker 1 (13:32):
Rob. Thanks so much for joining us.
Speaker 3 (13:34):
Thanks Rob, thanks for having me. First of all, I
just want to say I've enjoyed listening to the podcast
so far. I love how you're reaching out to gen Z.
You two have a great, hilarious dynamic, so I really
happy to be here.
Speaker 1 (13:46):
Thank you so much.
Speaker 2 (13:48):
We did not pay Rob to say that anyway.
Speaker 1 (13:51):
Thank you so much for coming on.
Speaker 2 (13:53):
Rob. We're so excited to chat to you about this
topic today. And I want to start because you went
to grad school, so I want to hear from your
experience and when you went to earn your master's in
educational and technology.
Speaker 1 (14:03):
What was going through your head? What encourage you to
pursue that degree.
Speaker 3 (14:07):
Yeah, that's a great question. I mean to be honest,
it was probably about the money, like money first, and
then like opportunity second. So I want to explain a
little bit though the money aspect. You know, I was
teaching at the time, and if you had a master's
you would actually go to a different pay scale, So
I figured, like, why wouldn't I get paid more to
do the same job, right? And then opportunity. I realized
(14:30):
I wanted to be a bit proactive with my career,
and I was figuring that I might go into administration
down the line, so like a vice principal for instance,
and you know, in order to do that you needed
your masters as a minimum. So those are the two
big things, and one other thing. I was going to
be married in a couple of years from them, and
I figured it'd be easier time for me to go
(14:50):
to school at that point.
Speaker 1 (14:52):
So what questions should other people be asking themselves if
they're thinking about going to grad school? But then also,
what are the signs that maybe grad school is not
the right option for you?
Speaker 3 (15:04):
You know, I think the questions obviously that you should
be asking are going to be based on your situation.
So when I worked with students around this, this is
actually the part where you do a lot of written reflection,
taking an inventory of your values, interests, and skills. And
this step is really important for you to then figure
out the type of questions you want to ask. You know,
(15:26):
if you don't know where you're at, like how can
you know where you want to go? And then I
think with that, I do this like three R framework
to generate questions from that, and that would be research, reality,
and ROI. So like the first is like research, you know,
what do I know about these programs? Who can I
talk to? So I mean like Gianna, for you, like
(15:47):
with a journalistic background, like what kind of question would
you ask when you're at that research phase if you're
deciding go to grad school, Like what would that sound
like for you?
Speaker 2 (15:55):
You know, I talked about this earlier because I said
to Jamay, like, I don't know what I would study
if I went to grad school. So I would be
curious from somebody who has a journalism background, who's surrounded
by people who maybe went to journalism school for their masters,
Like what would be the benefit to someone like me
earning an advanced degree and what kind of areas of
(16:17):
expertise could I explore in grad school that would complement
my undergrad degree?
Speaker 3 (16:21):
And see, I think that's a perfect question, right, because
I think sometimes when people are asking this, they think
there's that Okay, this question is going to tell me everything.
It's just more like curiosity figuring out where you are
and where you can get to a little bit. So
you know, that goes to that second, that reality. I
remember talking to a student once they're thinking about grad school,
and I just kind of asked, like, why do you
(16:42):
want to go into this program? And they had a
real tough time articulating the answer, right, and the reality
for this person, they were feeling lost, and therefore they thought,
you know, let's continue to do something safe, which is school,
Like I know this system, it's familiar to me in
many way allow them to avoid reality, right, that reality
(17:03):
of going out finding a job. So I think asking
those sort of questions what's actually real going on for
you is really important. And then the third one I
think about is the ROI right, that return on investment,
So to me, that's time and money, right, Like, how
much time can you dedicate for me? I was really
like clinical with my decision. I was like, I want
(17:24):
to work full time. I can't not have money coming in,
so what program is going to allow me to do that?
Like part time? So, like, time and money are really important,
and I think that's probably the biggest factor for most people.
Grad school is not cheap, right, you know, and it's
not working while going to school. It's a double whammy.
(17:44):
So I really get that conundrum lots of people are feeling.
Speaker 1 (17:48):
I really appreciate that you kind of gave us a
framework of questions that one should ask themselves, because you're
actually now making me think if you can't answer those things,
or if you can't kind of articulate the clear value
you would get, those might be the signs that you
maybe should reconsider grad school. So I really appreciate you
for saying that, because y'ah, check the signs, read the signs.
Speaker 3 (18:10):
That's right.
Speaker 2 (18:11):
Yeah, And I love that it's not a one size
fits all approach, which I think people want. Like selfishly,
I'm like, Okay, what are the questions I got asked myself?
But I am wondering, are there certain professions where going
to grad school will benefit you more than in a
different industry, Like will it give you a competitive edge
if you work in XYZ industry?
Speaker 3 (18:29):
Yeah, you know, I think obviously there's going to be
some schools that are going to give you competitive edge, right,
especially if we're talking professional programs where it's like a
clear outcome to a position. But you know, it's hard
to predict the job market, right. I remember a friend
of mine many years ago, like they were doing their
masters in electrical engineering. Tech was really big at the time,
(18:50):
and when you graduate, the tech sector had bottomed out.
So I think the value of the like any graduate program,
is a little bit more of like what are the
skills you're building? What's the network? Is there experiential learning involved?
Is there a project or internship component? Is there portfolio
being produced?
Speaker 1 (19:08):
Like?
Speaker 3 (19:08):
These are things that are all potential evidence for future employers. Now.
I think maybe ten twenty years ago we could have said, yes,
it gives you competitive edge, but we are seeing now
that some companies are moving to a skill based hiring approach.
Right before it used to be like must have undergrad
masters required, you're seeing them remove these sort of things.
(19:30):
So I think that competitive edge is maybe being a
little bit diluted certainly. But I think again it goes
back to that ROI you really want to consider do
I want to dedicate this time and money knowing that
there's no certainty? So am I still going to get
value of expanding my mind, my horizons, those things that
learning can give us. Yeah? Great, but it's tough to say, right.
Speaker 1 (19:53):
Yeah. So like let's say someone you know, they're listening
still and they're like, Okay, no, I know I want
to go to grad at school, but like I don't
even know where to start as far like how to
look for the graduate program? What steps would you give
on how they can determine what program is right for them?
Speaker 3 (20:10):
Well, you know, it's kind of funny when I am
doing some of these queer conversations with people, it actually
is some big picture questions, you know, and so it's
figuring out kind of what the deal breakers are for you. So,
you know, cost is a big one. I think that's
a really it's okay to start there. Sometimes I think
(20:30):
geographic location you be surprised sometimes of like some people
aren't really thinking about, like, you know, if family is
really important to your community some people want that adventure,
and other people are like, oh, even though they targeted
the school, they haven't really realized like you're on the
other side now, the coast, Like it's a big thing, right,
(20:51):
And then I think what's really important I think for
gen Z is like that values alignment. Does this program
represent the impact I'm seeking to make? Can I see
that people graduating from this program are actually doing the
work that I hope to do? These sort of things,
and I think these are some of the things I'd
be thinking about, you know, then we can get into
(21:11):
of course, like the type of school, the names, these
sort of things that I always like to start with
some of these broader questions because you'd be surprised at
how quickly, you know, people kind of stop or start
from those.
Speaker 1 (21:21):
Yeah, are there any other questions that you think, like,
you know, particularly if you're meeting with like either program directors,
maybe you have friends or you know, former colleagues who
are now in some of the programs that you're evaluating,
that other questions that people should be asking so that
they can kind of make a strong call on whether
this is the right choice for them or not.
Speaker 3 (21:39):
Yeah, I mean, I think that's kind of like informational interviews.
You're trying to get maybe the insight that's not showing
up on the profile of the school page showing up
in the media. So maybe that's with students. I think
is again, what are sort of the resources available? Did
you feel support as a student? I would be keen
to see if there's experiential learning embedded, you know. To me, again,
(22:03):
those are some great advantages. How is their graduate alumni support? Right?
Do they have program that connects you with these alumni?
Do they have mentorship programs? Like I would be looking
at all the other systems around that to get real
value from my degree. And you know, classroom, the professors, yes,
that all matters, but it's the infrastructure, right that is
(22:25):
going to take that degree up a level. We all
know that, right, So you're just trying to get a
clearer picture to help you make a better decision.
Speaker 1 (22:35):
Yeah, I love that all right, Rob.
Speaker 2 (22:37):
Since you've been listening to the show, you know, we
have our dear Work Bestie segment where we bring up
a listener question, so got to throw it at you.
This week's comes from Kelly in California.
Speaker 4 (22:47):
I just graduated from college and have always thought about
getting a master's degree. I'm still on the fence about
whether to go to grad school, but I'm worried that
if I wait too long to make a decision, it
might be harder to get into a good school. Is
there ever a right or best time to go back
to school?
Speaker 1 (23:03):
What do you think? Rob Ooh love this question.
Speaker 3 (23:05):
Oh that's a good question, Kelly, I'm hearing a little
bit like this is a legit concern, right, Is it
ever right time to go back to school? But I
would maybe see if we need to address a little
bit of the sitting on a fence issue first, right,
because you know, once you can figure out what your
commitment is, then you can take that action. And one
way I kind of do that as a favorite coaching
(23:26):
exercise of mine is kind of you unearth kind of
where you're sitting with the head, heart and gut method.
I don't know if you've ever done this before, Jamay,
I know you have some really good acting skills. So
let's do like a little bit of a role play here.
And you can do this with a friend or you
can do it with yourself. But Jama, let's say you're
(23:46):
not sure about doing a master's and so I want
you to just respond with a yes, maybe or no,
don't overthink it, okay. So the first one is I
want you to touch your head and what does your
head say about grad school? No? Okay? Now I want
you to touch your heart and what does your heart
say about grad school?
Speaker 1 (24:06):
Maybe?
Speaker 3 (24:06):
Okay? And then I want you to touch your gut
and what did your gut say about grad school?
Speaker 1 (24:12):
No?
Speaker 3 (24:13):
Okay? So I like that because now you get to
sit down and really figure out, Okay, what am I hearing? No? Maybe?
Speaker 2 (24:20):
No?
Speaker 1 (24:20):
Right?
Speaker 3 (24:21):
In this case, it almost might be even clear, like
maybe this is not for me, maybe my heart saying
I want to learn. I want to, but it's not
for me right now. So I really like this. I
use this all the time for like exercise on any
big decisions. And so I would maybe say to Kelly,
try this first to see where you are, because if
(24:42):
you're sitting on the fence, then there's never a right time.
Speaker 1 (24:45):
Rob. Can I ask a question though, because I mean,
first of all, that was such a wonderful exercise. If
you are a chronic overthinker, as Gianna and I have
both admitted many times on this podcast that we are,
sometimes I think you can start figuring out. Okay, so
what should I be listening to? Should I be listening
to my head? Should I be listening to my heart?
Is my gut? Do I have indigestion? What is happening today?
Speaker 2 (25:08):
Like?
Speaker 1 (25:08):
What is the marker here? Like if you're getting a
signal from one thing and it's and it kind of
is different than another, what's the indicator here?
Speaker 2 (25:15):
Yeah?
Speaker 3 (25:15):
I think what you're asking almost like tell me. So
I think what I like about this exercise is open
to interpretation because you can, after you have a discussion,
you say, you know, what I really value my rational side.
It's been something that I've really leveraged and worked on,
you know, and has helped me. So you might really
(25:36):
lend more weight to what your head says. So it's
really up to your interpretation. I mean, it's super easy
when it's all no, you know in the ayah. I've
had a situations where it's maybe maybe maybe, So it
feels like again it's a mess, But it's an interesting
jumping point because then you can ask questions like, well,
what would it take for your heart to say yes
(25:57):
right or no? Right? So I love this exercise and
again you can do it yourself. I've done it many
times where I'm stuck and I'll literally say okay, Rob
and just do that just to help me feel a
little bit better.
Speaker 1 (26:11):
I love that.
Speaker 2 (26:12):
I want to ask a quick follow up, Rob, before
we move on from Kelly's question, because you know, she
mentions that she waits too long it might be harder
to get.
Speaker 1 (26:21):
Into a good school.
Speaker 2 (26:22):
What do you think about that as their truth to that.
Speaker 3 (26:25):
I mean, I'll be honest, I don't think so I
get it, and I mean I'm old. It's just my
brain doesn't work as fastener. So I think I think
there's that value. But I mean, we see people getting
to school doing school at different time. I still think
there's a little bit. When I hear these sort of questions,
it's more of like, I'm stuck and it's scary. It
(26:46):
is scary, right. Our brains crave certainty, which is really
ironic because you're never certain, and so I appreciate what
she's asking, but it's not that you're going to miss
this window or something like that.
Speaker 1 (26:59):
Yeah, So, Rob, We've talked a little bit about some
of the indicators of grad school, one of them being
like people want to go because they hope that it'll
lead them to a bigger bag. But we have to
also admit that what stops a lot of people from
going to grad school is exactly that money. From your perspective,
are there any like financial resources or options that people
(27:19):
can sort of look into if they have decided grad
school is my yes, I just got to figure out
how I'm a finance it.
Speaker 3 (27:26):
I mean, one option is you can get a Canadian
citizenship because tuition is really cheap for domestic students. Okay
with that, it is much cheaper if you look at
Educate Higher ed up.
Speaker 1 (27:37):
Here and my cousins in Canada, and they say that
all the time.
Speaker 3 (27:40):
It really is, you know, this is where actually I
think you have to be a little bit proactive. I
always think about my sister. She's like a go getter
compared to me, And I remember in her grade twelve
years she was like she was applying to all these
little scholarships, these bursts, like all these things and just
a mass, like, you know, collectively a good amount. And
I always thought about that, how it's really figuring out
(28:03):
what's out there? Right, So, like, are there programs that
support you if you fall into like an equity like
serving group. Right, have you looked into different associations and
scholarship programs. I think about one like, I have a disability.
I've worked with this organization Line Connect. They offer like
a ton of scholarship opportunities for people with disability. Right,
(28:24):
So it's knowing what's out there. I think of often
with these programs, I'll have bursaries attached them, not scholarship,
just like small ad bursaries to help, you know, bring
costs down. Schools will have financial structures in place to
help you out as well. If you're doing research graduate programs,
then you you know you're going to get a little
bit of stipend these sort of things that will cover
(28:46):
some of the costs, but you know there there are
ways to at least lower that that damage, right, Yeah,
hopefully hopefully.
Speaker 1 (28:53):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (28:54):
You mentioned earlier that we're in a strange top job
market right now. It's continuing to change, and one part
of going to grad school is that, yes, employers are
now increasingly hiring by skills. But the other side of
that is, you know, when you come out with the
advanced degree, it might mean they got to pay you more.
(29:15):
And that's part of the reason why you and Jimmy
you know, went to grad school.
Speaker 1 (29:19):
But some might.
Speaker 2 (29:20):
Argue that companies are overlooking people with advanced degrees because
of that, right, because they have to pay them more.
So what are your thoughts on that and how might
someone overcome this barrier to show that they're a candidate
worth hiring, They're worth you know, the extra however much.
Speaker 3 (29:36):
I would really say to people, kind of focus on
what you can control, Like, look, will there be a
scenario that you're going to be overlooked due to cost, Yes,
that sucks, but at the same time, like that's sometimes
out of your control. So I would be you know
you mentioned in a previous podcast, like your personal brand,
Like I would be working on my personal brand, being
(29:56):
clear of how my degree provides me value, how I
would be worth that cost, that additional cost. Right, maybe
I have the ability to do more complex research that
they weren't anticipating. Maybe I need to demonstrate how I'm
going to apply my learning in novel ways. So those
are things I can control my personal brand and how
(30:17):
I show up, because all I'm trying to do is
I'm trying to convince the hiring people that I'm worth
that value. That additional cost, right.
Speaker 1 (30:26):
Yeah, you have to be able to articulate your value
and the value that you bring. And I appreciate that because,
I mean, there is a quantifiable value of how much
you've spent on your graduate program, you know. I think
one of the things that I often get scared of
are people who are going and paying all this money
for a graduate program to enter into markets that do
not pay well. Like you just spend one hundred and
(30:48):
twenty thousand dollars on a graduate on a master's degree,
and then you're going to go take a thirty five
thousand dollar job. The silence is so loud.
Speaker 3 (30:56):
Well, I mean it's that I think Chris Rock had
like a joke of like, you know that a job's
a good job is someone's going to pay you for it, right,
So sometimes it is doing that job market research, which
is why again I think it's like focusing on those skills,
understanding how you can transfer them, and like understanding of
your brand. Like if you can't speak to your brand,
I don't care how many degrees you have, You're not
(31:16):
going to convince someone to hire you. So it's that storytelling,
that practice, the reflection that we talked about at the
very beginning. Those are all part and parcel. Like, if
you can't articulate your values, your skills, your interests, I
mean you're going to have a hard time convincing someone
to hire you, right in any.
Speaker 1 (31:34):
Regard, definitely, Well, that is such a great note to
end on all.
Speaker 2 (31:38):
You know, we love talking about personal branding, so we
could keep talking about this forever. But you gave me
a lot to think about, Rob. I know, as I
you know, think about the idea of grad school, but
my gut was saying, no, so I gotta go back
and do this exercise again.
Speaker 1 (31:50):
No, I was going to say, You've given me a
lot to think about because I'm the crazy lady who
wants to go back to school again because that's just
I love learning. Well, Rob, where can we find you?
Where can people connect with you?
Speaker 3 (32:00):
Yeah, you can find me at alumni, dot UBC, dot CA,
backslash Careers. I'm the Associate director of Lifelong Learning, so
we do a lot of programming for people on a
range of career topics from job search to you know,
understanding what recruiters are looking for. So you can go
there and actually anyone, you don't have to be UBC alumni.
(32:21):
You don't have to go to UBC and I'm personally
I'm on LinkedIn all the time, so you can find
me there and connect with me there.
Speaker 1 (32:28):
Sweet guys, all of his information will be down in
the show description, so make sure you check it out.
Thank you, Rob, We appreciate job.
Speaker 3 (32:34):
No problem.
Speaker 2 (32:37):
So Rob drops some great advice. Going back to school
isn't an easy decision, but we hope this combo helps
point you in the right direction after the break. It's
great to have workplace friends, but how about enemies. Ooh,
that's next thing I'm really taking away from our conversation,
(33:03):
which doesn't seem so groundbreaking, but it's this idea that,
like going to grad school, that decision is not so
black and white. There's no one size fits all approach,
and it really comes down to the individual. I think
you guys know me by now, like I do not
play well in the gray.
Speaker 1 (33:18):
I love a.
Speaker 2 (33:18):
Black and white situation, but this really is something that
takes thoughtful consideration and asking yourself questions, and like you
and Rob were kind of saying, if you can't answer,
like why I want to go, it's probably just not
the right.
Speaker 1 (33:32):
Decision for you. Yeah, I think, like that's such a
great framework for anything in life. Right, Like I loved
the head heart Gut exercise. It was so nice and
it was grounding also, but to do it, yeah, I
was like breathing. I was like, wow, look at me
breathing because be so groundbreaking. But like, I definitely think
like head, heart gut is a way that you can
(33:53):
kind of just do checks with yourself about anything. Yeah,
but definitely for a decision that is this big. And
then also I think what's really important here is just
to remember, like your career for most people is going
to be nonlinear, and so you really want to take
into consideration. Is the decision that I'm making today for
grad school gonna set me up for who I may
(34:14):
be down the road. Remember we talked all about the
personal branding episode, Like you are allowed to evolve, and
your brand is going to evolve. You want to make
sure that your education is in alignment with that gradual
progression as well. Yeah, you know, I love.
Speaker 2 (34:25):
That you said there's other ways to upscale and like
boost your education, because yes, being like a lifelong learner
like Rob is so important and that's especially important in
today's workforce. But there's other ways to do it than earning,
you know, your master's degree.
Speaker 1 (34:41):
Yeah, I agree. Well, look, you know grad school is expensive,
and you got to keep those receipts. Speaking of them,
let's talk about show the receipts. This is our segment
where we get to look at the latest workplace trends
and headlines, maybe even some workplace myths and see if
there's any truth to them. Now, geez, what are we
talking about today? Okay?
Speaker 2 (35:02):
Today the topic is the benefits of a work Please
enemy Jessy, oh, Jamy looks dead inside.
Speaker 1 (35:09):
Okay, we are enemies.
Speaker 4 (35:11):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (35:12):
So Slate published an article titled having an enemy at
work might help you get ahead immediately grab my attention,
and it presents the idea of the anti mentor.
Speaker 1 (35:23):
So an anti mentor what does that? Yeah, thank you?
Speaker 2 (35:26):
P asking is somebody who shows you what not to
do at work. So, for example, maybe they're a coworker
who's like really bad at communicating, or a manager who
just like does not fulfill their promises.
Speaker 1 (35:38):
So they're also those.
Speaker 2 (35:40):
People who are just like annoying to work with. I
don't know that you say you like hate these people,
because my mom always said he is a strong word,
but you definitely like you know you you just like
some people. But they're important. These anti mentors are important
because they help shape your values about work and the
kind of leader or colleague you want to be. Okay,
so lots to think about here. What do you think
(36:00):
is there any truth to this idea that a workplace
enemy can actually be a good thing?
Speaker 1 (36:04):
And do you have enemies? Am I one of them?
Let's leave Gianna at home, let's see Okay. So to
bring it back to one of my favorite topics on
the podcast, I guess you gotta kiss a couple of
bad frogs. I guess to get to your pa say
(36:25):
that they say that they don't be kissing no frogs.
That's nasty. But I do think that sometimes seeing people
or experiencing people that you know, you're like, yeah, not
my ministry, not my vibe, no, helps inform you of
like what you are looking for. It's the same thing
as like when we were talking about, like in our
manager episode, having bad managers is actually a great way
(36:49):
for you to see like what you would not want
to do should you ever become a manager or if
you're getting a new manager. Some of the boundaries that
you want to set right. So I do think that
there's some truth to this. I think that there is
some validity in this idea of seeing people as either
people who are directly impacting you or people who indirectly
educate you on things that you don't want. And yeah,
(37:11):
I've had a couple of people, you know, throughout my
career and stuff that I'm just like, ooh, yeah, what
do you think. I feel like Gianna doesn't have enemies
that you know of I want you to tap into.
They don't right, they don't know. No, just never let
them see you come and gee, yeah, so I agree
with you. I'm signing off on all your receipts.
Speaker 2 (37:29):
But I think the term anti mentor just seems a
bit dramatic to me because it's like a little bit scary.
Speaker 1 (37:36):
I'm like, oh, it's definitely given like dark shadowy figure
in like a dark alley thing. You know, you love
your horror, so that's all for you.
Speaker 2 (37:43):
But yeah, I just think I do agree that if
there's somebody who you work with who is kind of
showing you ways not to do things because you notice
they're bad at communicating, and other people kind of have
picked up on that. Then I think it's informative and
I think that's helpful. But where I think you got
to drop the line is like when that person becomes
toxic or if they're like your manager who is blocking
(38:06):
your career growth, then that is just not a good situation.
There's no benefit to having that person, right.
Speaker 1 (38:13):
Yeah, exactly, And I think like that's sort of like
the cautionary tale here, right, like know when to tell
the difference, no, when to use something as inspiration versus
when it is actually impeding on your career growth. Yeah, okay,
so I guess the receipts are out, Like we both
think that like an anti mentor, I mean, even though
we could probably relabel that let's talk offline about that.
(38:35):
But like, I think an anti mentor is beneficial in
the sense of it showing you what you don't want
to do or be, but be cautionary about it. Don't
allow this to affect you in your workplace. Know how
to pivot should that arise. Yeah, I agree. Well, I
would love to know from you all if you all
have anti mentors in your life. Thank you guys so much.
(38:58):
I know still all the tea let us know. But
also thank you guys so much for listening for this episode.
Speaker 2 (39:03):
Yes, thank you guys, and make sure if you're not
already following our newsletter. It's called Let's Talk Upline. You
can find the link in the show description. It's also
in my LinkedIn bio. We want to hear what you
guys thought of the episode this week, so let us
know by sharing a post on LinkedIn, you get tag
Jamy and I will meet you there in the comments.
Speaker 1 (39:20):
Let's discuss. Let's to discuss with our work besties.
Speaker 2 (39:23):
To be sure to join us in the comments. We
want to hear from all you work besties.
Speaker 1 (39:27):
Some of you all may be anti mentors. How about that?
God ah, that's the gag anyway, Kelly, thank you so
much for sending in your question this week. I'm so
thankful for you. Also, you all can be just like Kellen.
You can send us your questions. Information on how to
do that is also in the show description.
Speaker 2 (39:44):
That show description tease has been so much softer.
Speaker 1 (39:47):
Because I feel like they're getting it. But if you're
not getting in the show description, sorry guys, Sorry I
asked for it.
Speaker 2 (39:56):
Also, make sure you guys are rating and following the show.
Speaker 1 (39:59):
Leave us a review.
Speaker 2 (40:00):
We'd love to hear from you and make sure you're
following if you're not already, so that you get notified
when an episode drops each week before you go. Remember
we've always got your back, so if something comes up.
Speaker 1 (40:12):
Let's Talk Offline.
Speaker 2 (40:14):
I'm Jonni Perdenti.
Speaker 1 (40:15):
And I'm Jamay Jackson Gadston Stay Thriving.
Speaker 2 (40:20):
Let's Talk Offline is a production of LinkedIn News and
iHeart Podcasts. The show is produced by Western Sound. Our
producer is Sabrina Fang. The show is edited by Savannah Wright.
Our associate producer is Sarah Dilley. Alex mckinnis is our engineer,
and Ben Adair is the executive producer.
Speaker 1 (40:36):
Executive producers at iHeart Podcasts are Katrina Norvel and Nikki Etoor.
We got support from LinkedIn's Jesse Humple, Sarah Storm, and
Ayana Angel. Maya Pope. Chappelle is director of Content, Dave
Pond is Head of News Production, Courtney Coop is head
of Original Programming, and Dan Roth is the editor in
(40:56):
chief of LinkedIn
Speaker 3 (41:00):
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