High Level Conversations: Dr. Kensa Gunter, Director of NBA Mind Health

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Levels to This is an iHeart women's sports production in
partnership with Deep Blue Sports and Entertainment. You can find
us on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you
get your podcasts.

Speaker 2 (00:15):
What's going on, everybody, it's your girl, Serrica Foston Brassy.

Speaker 3 (00:19):
So she says, what's up, y'all? His sugar girl Cheryl swoops.

Speaker 2 (00:25):
And this is the levels to this podcast, the show
when we talk about the real shit that women go through.
And I'm gonna tell you, Cheryl is laughing at me
right now.

Speaker 3 (00:37):
Because you are definitely on a different level today.

Speaker 2 (00:40):
Because we're recording this on a Monday, and we're actually
recording this pretty late on a Monday Eastern Time. In
about forty five minutes to this recording, WWE Monday Night
Raw is coming on, and I'm prepared because I got
on my jay Uso yeat glasses.

Speaker 3 (01:00):
What do you want to say?

Speaker 4 (01:01):
So?

Speaker 2 (01:02):
So, j Uso is a wrestler and he has a
catchphrase and his little catch line or catchword is yeat like,
And so every time he talks and he says something,
the crowd goes, ye.

Speaker 3 (01:14):
Hey does he wear does he wear? These yeat guesses?
He wears these glasses. Can you see?

Speaker 2 (01:20):
I can see I can see perfectly fine through these classes.

Speaker 4 (01:23):
Yeah, no, I'm good.

Speaker 3 (01:24):
They look good on you though, I mean they look great.

Speaker 1 (01:27):
They look amazing with the red hair and the white
yeep glasses.

Speaker 3 (01:32):
Ye see what I'm saying.

Speaker 1 (01:33):
So, okay, that's what I'm doing.

Speaker 3 (01:37):
I'm gonna have to get me so I'm gonna have
to give me. So I like, is that does he do?
Do they do that too? So they like kind of
bout ye yes.

Speaker 2 (01:45):
And in his intro there's a specific part of the
song where everywhere the whole crowd is doing this.

Speaker 3 (01:51):
And they're ye see what I'm saying. He imagine people
doing that? What does yeat?

Speaker 5 (01:58):
Mean?

Speaker 3 (01:59):
It ease yet?

Speaker 2 (02:01):
Just yet It's just like it's his thing. It's like
it's like, yes, good, I'm telling you. It's the it's
the bottom. Like by the end of this year, I
Am going to bring chryl Over to the w w
E world.

Speaker 1 (02:16):
It is kind of catchy though, we matter of fact,
you see what I'm saying.

Speaker 3 (02:25):
Oh my gosh, how was your week? What's going what's
going on? How was your week? My week was great?

Speaker 4 (02:31):
Actually busy.

Speaker 1 (02:33):
I'm like I had some time off and you know,
back to busy just doing the things. Yeah, grandson, I
can say son, I don't have to say. Maybe grandson
will be coming in July, which is.

Speaker 3 (02:49):
Literally right around the corner of tea. That is so exciting. Yeah,
it's like a month from now, a little bit over
a month.

Speaker 1 (02:56):
I keep saying I'm not ready, Like I don't have
the thing. He's ready in the house, do you know
what I mean?

Speaker 3 (03:02):
You haven't baby prooved the house.

Speaker 1 (03:04):
Shit, I feel like I haven't like shocked enough and
all the things.

Speaker 3 (03:11):
But uh, it was great.

Speaker 4 (03:14):
It was great.

Speaker 3 (03:14):
It was great. How's your week?

Speaker 2 (03:16):
My week's been great. Like WNBA kicked off this week.
So first game was Sunday against Washington, and I thought
it was a great game, but.

Speaker 3 (03:27):
I thought it was a great broadcast.

Speaker 2 (03:29):
Like I honestly thought that our game was the best
game of the weekend. And of course I should feel
that way because it's my game. So yeah, you know,
obviously you know I'm gonna be biased to my broadcast
and my squad, but yeah, I mean, other than that,
I've had a I've had a really good week. I'm
excited at the end of this week. I'm going to
see Beyonce where and met Life at MetLife Okay, Cowboy

(03:52):
Car in New York.

Speaker 1 (03:53):
And you know, I love Beyonce, but I haven't. I'm
not a big concert goer. Like I love Beyonce. There's
something about concerts that gives me anxiety.

Speaker 3 (04:04):
Oh is it the people?

Speaker 1 (04:05):
It's like the people, it's too big, too much, too
I got it too uptight.

Speaker 3 (04:12):
And you're not the first person I've heard say that.

Speaker 1 (04:15):
I can't, but I have something to tell you that
I think it ain't like that.

Speaker 3 (04:21):
But so our good, says Cindy brun Say yes. She
was like, oh my god, Tarika is so good the
other day. You're in the game. Really, uh huh.

Speaker 1 (04:37):
She she just said, you like you sound like it
looked like you're a lot more comfortable, but like you're
you're in your space, You're in your place where you're
supposed to be.

Speaker 3 (04:49):
Yeah. I just wanted to share that with that. Thank
you so much. That is so good to hear, Cindy.

Speaker 2 (04:55):
Let me tell you about Cindy for two seconds, Cindy.

Speaker 1 (05:00):
Shout out Cindy Brunson, we love you, but we'll.

Speaker 2 (05:02):
Shout out to Cindy Brunson holding it down in a
desert in az And let me tell you, Cindy was
one of the first people a few years ago when
I first started doing not sideline but like color analyst
and play by play, I was like, Cindy, I don't
know what the hell I'm doing.

Speaker 3 (05:20):
Cindy was like, girl, I got you.

Speaker 2 (05:22):
I got just talking basketball and literally like she would
text me throughout the game and say, this was great.

Speaker 3 (05:29):
Try saying this, Try doing this.

Speaker 2 (05:31):
And so I'm looking at my phone and my first
assignment I was color analyst with Angel Gray. So I'm like, y'all,
I got like this professional play by play here, and
She's like, girl, don't be intimidated. Just let your play
by play guide you. And I'm just like, Cindy, you
have no idea how just your guidance and your encouragement

(05:52):
just really helped me feel better about belonging here.

Speaker 3 (05:56):
So Cindy, if you're listening, my girl love you.

Speaker 1 (06:01):
Yeah, because Cindy is an OG in this game, right,
I get it, Tea.

Speaker 3 (06:06):
Because when I really.

Speaker 1 (06:08):
Got comfortable being a color commentator was working with Cindy
at AU and I loved it because I was the
same way, right, Like, uh, just nervous because that's not
what I've done a lot of and she made me
feel so comfortable, so like, like good at doing it,

(06:30):
because that's it. You're you're talking basketball, but you're also
you're also having fun while you're talking about it, and
you're doing it with somebody that's the damn og so
you know she gonna hold it down.

Speaker 3 (06:42):
So I totally get it. Seebee, we love you.

Speaker 1 (06:45):
You got to come on the show.

Speaker 2 (06:47):
You have got to come on the show. Like it's
so funny how often I'm I'm talking to people or
I'm on social and I'm just like, y'all think it's
so easy to get on anybody's microphone, specifically on a
game and talk about that. Sure, we're talking about basketball,
but there are so many technical things and little things
that you've got to know and be on Q four.

(07:10):
It's just not for you know, for those who think
it's easy, it's just not easy.

Speaker 3 (07:14):
But I'm gonna tell you what is easy. What is
easy is.

Speaker 2 (07:19):
Having the opportunity to have somebody in your corner, on
your back, somebody that you can count on and depend
on to be like, girl, you got this, or to
be that person to be like girl, you can do it.

Speaker 3 (07:34):
I believe in you. You got faith. And you know
what that does.

Speaker 2 (07:37):
What that does for someone in our position is not
only does it give us confidence, but it gives us peace.
You have to be in a good mental space to
be a broadcaster. You have to be like you can't
go on TV, Yes, you can't go to work a
game and not in the right headspace, like it will
come across on air. And I think it's fear to

(07:59):
say that with any profession that you've got to be
in the right headspace. And I bring this up because
it is Mental Health Awareness Month and this episode we
are going to be speaking with someone who is really
going to get us right as it relates to understanding
being an athlete or just being in any profession, and

(08:22):
how important mental care and mental health is to be
in the best of you, which in turn makes you
the best at what you do.

Speaker 1 (08:29):
So I'm excited, you know, we've talked about just wanting
to have this conversation and get into mental health and
what that looks like, what it means. I'm excited, not
just for like the nuggets she's gonna give us and
for other people to be very honest with you says, Yeah,
I need this. I need this conversation today for me.

(08:52):
So I am super excited about our guests and uh can't.

Speaker 3 (08:56):
Wait, can't wait to hear what she has to say.

Speaker 2 (08:58):
Absolutely well with the no further adode, let's just go
ahead and take this thing to the next level. So,
like we told you guys to start the show, May
is Mental health Awareness Month.

Speaker 3 (09:18):
And we certainly do our best.

Speaker 2 (09:21):
Charla and I definitely do our best to kind of
talk about various different health issues or not even issues,
but just health topics throughout every month on our show,
but this month, we definitely wanted to make sure that
we dedicated some time to talk about mental health specifically,
and to help us do that, we have the amazing
doctor Kinza Gunter joining the show today.

Speaker 4 (09:44):
I'm so excited. We always have to be extra love it.

Speaker 2 (09:55):
Doctor Gunter and I met a few years ago because
my girl the China and I had a podcast around
the rim and we also wanted to give some love
to mental health and just everything that doctor g as
we're gonna call her on this show does. We wanted
to get a better understanding of how mental health plays

(10:16):
into professional athletes high performance athletes, their well being, their culture,
and doctor Gunster has done that. She has provided various
different counseling and consultations to different individuals, different teams, different organizations.
She's been the director of the NBA and WNBA Mind Health.

Speaker 3 (10:33):
So we're gonna talk about all of that.

Speaker 2 (10:36):
So first, you know, not only welcome to the show,
but just give our fans and our listeners a little
background about who is Kenza Gunter.

Speaker 5 (10:46):
Well, again, let me just say thank you so much
for being here. I appreciate any opportunity to talk about
mental health in a very real way to kind of
help dispel some of the myths and misconceptions. And so
I know we'll get into all that. But to your question, So,
Kenza is is just a hometown girl from Athens, Georgia.
I happen to be a clinical and sports psychologist. I'm
currently based in Atlanta. I have a private practice. I

(11:08):
have been practicing in this field for eighteen years at
this point, which is just bizarre for me to say
out loud, but I've had an opportunity to work in
collegiate spaces, in college counseling centers, in college athletic departments. Again,
I have a private practice, and as you mentioned, I
currently serve as the director of mind Health, which is
the NBA's mental health, wellness and performance program that spans

(11:29):
across all of our leagues including the w the G League,
our Basketball Africa League.

Speaker 4 (11:33):
We have touch points there.

Speaker 5 (11:35):
So I just feel very fortunate to be in this
position and in this moment of having.

Speaker 4 (11:44):
This real conversation.

Speaker 5 (11:45):
So I'm I'm just a grateful, a grateful person who's
just trying to help impact the world in any way
I can in.

Speaker 4 (11:53):
This area of mental health.

Speaker 3 (11:54):
Listen, you are doing just that.

Speaker 1 (11:58):
Just to listen to to everything you just said, it
takes me back to my playing days, which was a
long time ago. And I love the space we're in
today because back then we mental health existed. It always has,
but we didn't have like, we didn't talk about it.

(12:20):
We didn't have a doctor g around these types of programs,
so we just kind of dealt with it on our own.
But my question to you is how did you get
involved with the program you just talked about.

Speaker 5 (12:34):
Yeah, it's a really good question, and I appreciate the
point that you made.

Speaker 4 (12:38):
Mental health has always existed, and.

Speaker 5 (12:40):
In truth, these conversations have always been had they just
weren't had publicly, and we might not have had words
to actually describe what was going on with our experience.
But spoiler alert for everybody listening, we all have mental
health and we all.

Speaker 4 (12:54):
Even think about the ways in which we take care
of it.

Speaker 5 (12:56):
And so for me and how I got into this field,
I kind of fell in love with psychology during my
undergraduate studies and so that really piqued my interest in
trying to understand people and what makes people tick and
why do they do the things that they do, And.

Speaker 4 (13:09):
I took a role.

Speaker 5 (13:10):
At first, I was going to go into the world
of forensic psychology. If anybody had seen Silence of the Lambs,
I wanted to be Clarice.

Speaker 3 (13:16):
And the.

Speaker 4 (13:19):
Exactly right.

Speaker 5 (13:20):
But I understood working at that intersection of psychology and
the criminal justice system might be a bit much for
me long term. And so I had always loved sports,
and as I was going into my doctorate program, that's
when I entered into this field of sports psychology. And
to your point, I was practicing in collegiate spaces in
private practice for six years before I even stepped into

(13:40):
the professional sports space. But I think when I did
and that was back in two thousand and thirteen was
my first foray into professional sports within the NFL. I
think there was a growing awareness of if we're not
attending to what's happening from the neck up, we're missing
out on a huge part of what contributes folks wellness

(14:01):
their performance, just their capacity to function on and outside
of whatever proferbial feel they play in. And so that's
really how I got into it. I think there was
a growing awareness, and I think we've seen that awareness
can continue to grow over the last few years.

Speaker 4 (14:15):
And even decades.

Speaker 2 (14:17):
Yeah, you know, it's funny that you mentioned that too,
because I think a phrase that we hear a lot
of is this level of mental toughness that someone has
to have, or you know, the cliche phrase of mind
over matter. I think we often use it so much
that it feels like it's just something that people say.

Speaker 3 (14:34):
But I think in your line of work and.

Speaker 2 (14:35):
What you continue to do improve is that there is
so much truth behind that saying. Can you give us
a bit more detail in how your mental health and
wellness really correlates to like healing and recovery, especially for
athletes that are like trying to make their way back
from injuries.

Speaker 5 (14:51):
Well, let's think about the mind and body are connected, right,
And so when you think about the ways in which
you try to focus on promoting health, we often only
think of physical ways.

Speaker 3 (14:59):
Right.

Speaker 4 (15:00):
If you don't exercise, drink.

Speaker 5 (15:01):
Water, get enough rest, move like you don't do those
things because you're necessarily feeling physically ill. You do those
things to promote health. It's the same thing when we
think about the mental health aspect.

Speaker 2 (15:12):
Right.

Speaker 5 (15:12):
If I think about an athlete, they are focusing on
their strength, endurance, their capacity to be flexible from a
physical standpoint. You need strength, endurance and the capacity to
be flexible from a mental and emotional standpoint too. And
so when we think about the ways in which your
thoughts influence what you do, and what you do and
how you're capable of moving influences your thoughts. So there's

(15:34):
a bi directional relationship. Your mind influences your body, your
body influences your mind. So as you talk about healing,
you need to have healing from a top depth, from
the top of your head to the bottom of your
feet approach and thinking about how your perspective, thinking about
what you say to yourself in terms of self talk,
thinking about the ways in which you think about healing,

(15:57):
the way you think about success, the way you think
about performance, thinking about how you think about all those
things will impact what you do. And so it really
is a very clear connection between our mind and our body.

Speaker 4 (16:10):
And I'll just say one more thing.

Speaker 5 (16:12):
When we talk about or when we say physical health,
we do not automatically think illness. When we say mental health,
people tend to automatically think illness. And so what I
would think my definition is mental health, by definition from
the World Health Organization, is a state of well being.
So one of the things if your listeners take away

(16:32):
nothing else, I would have them take away this. Whenever
you think about mental health, it's not the absence of illness,
and it's not about how ill you might feel. Mental
health is a state of well being. How well do
you feel, how equipped do you feel, how ready do
you feel to be able to function in your life right?
And if you're not where you want to be, there
are absolutely things you can.

Speaker 3 (16:52):
Do to enhance that. Can I follow up with that, Yeah,
because that was good. Yeah, because I'm really happy that
you said.

Speaker 2 (17:00):
You said about mental health does not necessarily equal or
equate to.

Speaker 3 (17:03):
An illness because if we keeping it a bug.

Speaker 2 (17:06):
Mental health has really been a taboo subject in a
black community for a long time. And I can see
that the culture is changing, which is a good thing.
But when I think about sports and athleticism, majority of
our leagues are predominantly black athletes. And when you try
to combine that taboo of mental health and being able

(17:28):
to discuss and being able to acknowledge that mental health
does exist along with the black athlete, it feels like
there's a consistent push there. Can you maybe share like
how you know in so many ways not only are
you like fighting that stigma, but just how that can
sometimes clash because it feels like it does. Yeah, you

(17:49):
said a phrase a moment ago when you asked about
the concept of mental toughness, right, And so if in
the world of sport we constantly received this message that
we're supposed to be mentally tough, what's the opposite of
that weakness?

Speaker 4 (18:02):
Right? So if I'm not tough, then does that mean
I'm weak?

Speaker 5 (18:04):
And we know in the world of sport there are
all kind of phrases and sayings that promote this idea
of tough grit, grinding it out without any room for recovery,
rest or pause. So suck it up, right, like you
gotta you can. I've heard the phrase of you can
rest when you're no longer here, right, But if you're

(18:25):
not working, somebody's outworking you.

Speaker 3 (18:27):
Like.

Speaker 5 (18:27):
It's this idea of constantly grinding, constantly pushing, constantly hustling,
constantly moving, constantly doing more and more and more and
more and more in order to be perceived as tough
without this recognition that toughness is not about how how
much you can do per se. Toughness is about sustainability.

(18:49):
How often can you do what you need to do
when you need to do it in a sustainable way?

Speaker 4 (18:54):
Right, And so we have to expand our idea tough.

Speaker 5 (18:57):
But that clash, I think is because we've always position success,
performance and toughness as existing outside of challenge, struggle, adversity, right.
And so you had to be tough, not weak. You
had to be the boss, not a good teammate or
a good follower, like, you had to be this person

(19:19):
who was able to function independent of challenge. And that's
just not the truth, right, Any great athlete that you know,
any great person that you know, got to their greatness
not because they never experienced adversity, because they.

Speaker 4 (19:34):
Learned how to mapage.

Speaker 3 (19:34):
Yeah yeah, yeah, Oh that's good. You dropping some gyms today?

Speaker 1 (19:40):
Like this is a conversation though, that one I think
should be had in every home, right, It's something that
we should absolutely talk about.

Speaker 3 (19:51):
I have so many questions for you.

Speaker 1 (19:52):
My first question, though, is how does someone know if
they're dealing with mental health issues versus.

Speaker 3 (20:04):
Just dealing with life or do you know what I mean?

Speaker 4 (20:08):
Yes, I do.

Speaker 5 (20:10):
So the idea of mental health that set us a
state of well being, right, but that exists on a continuum. Right,
So when we think about mental health, you can think
about it as arranged from times when you feel exceptionally
great and well to times where you might actually feel ill. Again,
no different than physical health, right, And so I use
physical health because we have an understanding of physical health

(20:32):
in a different way. But to your question, like life
is going to happen, we are going to experience stressors.
There may be times where we wake up and we
don't feel one hundred percent right. Maybe my mood feels down.
Maybe I don't feel as connected to my community or
as connected to my friends and family.

Speaker 4 (20:48):
Maybe I'm just having.

Speaker 5 (20:49):
An off day and I don't have the energy to
engage and to do the things that I normally do. Right,
all of us will experience those moments. That doesn't mean
I'm unwell. That could just be a day that's just
an off day.

Speaker 4 (21:02):
We all have those.

Speaker 5 (21:03):
But when you think about when does it move into
that range where it might be more than an off day, right,
it might be more that I need to think about
and consider. And the way that we tend to think
about that is a couple of ways. So if that
off day becomes an off week, or off two weeks
or a off month, like, that's the time. So if

(21:23):
there's a if it starts to extend for an extended
period of time, like if you start to not quite
feel like yourself for an extended period of time two
weeks so longer, that can be an indication that something
else may be going on. If you start to notice
that you are truly unable to function and do the
basics in multiple areas of your life. So you're not
able to attend to what you need to do at home,

(21:45):
you're not really functioning well at work, You're not really
engaging with your social support network in the way that
you normally would. So you notice that disruption in multiple areas,
that's another sign something might might be going on more than.

Speaker 4 (21:58):
An off day.

Speaker 5 (21:58):
And then the last one is the intensity of symptoms,
Like if something comes fast and furious and feels like
it is overwhelming you and you cannot get out from
under whatever that is, that's another sign. So the length
of time or the duration, the intensity of the symptoms,
and the amount of disruption and dysfunction that it causes
in your life are three of the things we really

(22:19):
look for to determine is this normal stress or even
maybe a little bit more than normal stress, or is
this a situation where you might need to go and
see somebody? And I'll offer let me give an analogy. So,
for example, you wake up one morning, maybe you feel
like you've developing a cold. So maybe you know you
take a day off, just a rest. I need some rest, right,
I'm gonna get some fluids in me. I'm gonna get
some rest.

Speaker 4 (22:39):
Maybe you keep.

Speaker 5 (22:39):
Feeling bad, so you go to the drug store and
you might get some over the account of medication, right,
because I feel like I need a little more than
what I have within me to handle this.

Speaker 4 (22:49):
Well, if the symptoms.

Speaker 5 (22:50):
Persist, you might go to urgent care, go see your
doctor because what I've tried and the remedies that I've
used aren't working.

Speaker 4 (22:56):
So let me go get some additional support.

Speaker 5 (22:57):
And then you might get a diagnose that allows you
maybe you need some antibiotics, maybe you need something else.
But again it's not no pun intended, but it's levels
to this in terms of how you think about your
health and your well being. And there's some things where
you can use your own coping strategies, there's some things
where you may need additional support. And again, intensity of symptoms,
length of time of symptoms, and the level of dysfunction

(23:20):
that causes can be good good indicators to help you distinguish.

Speaker 3 (23:23):
That's like an incredible analogy, Tea. I want to follow
up with one thing.

Speaker 1 (23:27):
So you said something to me that's very important when
you said mental health is not an illness. Right, So
I go back to when I played when I had
my son ninety seven. Coming back playing, I went through
a lot of things that I never talked about that

(23:49):
people really didn't know from a mental standpoint, right, because
physically I was like, of course, I carried a child
for nine months and I just gave birth to a
whole human being and all the things. So I knew
physically my body was going through things, but from a
mental standpoint, I had so many moments and times when
I was like what, like, like, what is going on?

(24:12):
So that analogy you gave, right, I was like, okay,
that's a great point.

Speaker 3 (24:17):
My question is do you do you think.

Speaker 1 (24:19):
Because here was my thing, I was like, I'm not
gonna go find somebody to talk to because I don't
want anybody to think like I'm crazy or I'm sick. Right.
Do you think that people don't get help or seek
help or talk to anyone for the fear of being
labeled crazy or sick?

Speaker 4 (24:42):
Right? Absolutely?

Speaker 3 (24:44):
So, how do you how.

Speaker 1 (24:45):
Do you convince somebody to say, you know what, there's
nothing wrong with you, It's okay, you should go talk
to somebody to feel, to.

Speaker 4 (24:54):
Have emotions, to have hard moments in life. It's to
be here.

Speaker 5 (25:01):
You're human, and so you're going to have those experiences.
And to your point of having a child is for
many it is a huge blessing and a huge positive,
but it is extremely traumatic on the body of the
person who gave birth, and it is a major life
transition that shifts everything in your life from what you

(25:25):
knew to what it now is.

Speaker 4 (25:26):
In your role as.

Speaker 5 (25:27):
A parent, it's a major adjustment, and it's not that
you're crazy. There is no roadmap to some of these
major life transitions.

Speaker 4 (25:36):
That we go through.

Speaker 5 (25:38):
Becoming a parent is one, getting married is another. Losing
a loved one to death is another. Lose having getten
a medical diagnosis is another major transition that we go through.

Speaker 4 (25:50):
And these things are are.

Speaker 5 (25:53):
Unexpected and they can rattle us. And so to be
rattled by something that is major and signal that happens
in life is to be human. And if there's the
second thing that your listeners would take, I would say,
I would encourage us all to give ourselves permission to
be human and to understand that being human doesn't mean

(26:13):
I never experienced anything. Being human doesn't mean I can
handle everything that comes my way at all times. Being
human means I feel, it means I think, it means
I may need help, And I'll go back to my
physical health analogy. If you are at home with a
broken leg, my guess is that you're not going to
sit on the couch and just say, well, I'm I'm
gonna wait and see what happens. My guess is that
you're going to go and get some help to mend

(26:35):
that leg in a way that you know you can't do.

Speaker 4 (26:37):
On your own.

Speaker 5 (26:38):
If you find yourself in a situation where an experience
is so overwhelming that it is beyond your capacity to
manage in your own, that's what we're here for. That's
why this profession in this field exists so that you
can come and talk to us. And let me also
be very clear, we're not analyzing, we're not judging. The

(26:59):
way I do describe the work that I do, it's
a conversation. It's one person talking to another person, where
my job is to focus exclusively on you, to try
to help you process things you need to process, but
to ultimately help you move in your life in the
direction and the way that you would like to. That's
what I'm here to do, and what that looks like
is different for everybody that walks in my office. But

(27:21):
we were not meant to live this human journey alone.

Speaker 2 (27:28):
Right right now, that says so much, And I see
you be an emotional shirl, but it's see it makes
sense because I kind of tear it up a little
bit and trying to keep it together myself only because
you brought up something interesting so personal story about two
years ago, my husband and I went to marriage counseling

(27:51):
and something that I feel like most couples at some
point either need to do or do and don't do,
but either way it goes.

Speaker 3 (27:58):
We did it, and.

Speaker 2 (28:01):
Afterwards, you know, I suggested that he and I both
continue to see our counselor, but separately, and because there
were things that were coming out that was just like yo,
like I didn't realize it was like this, or I
didn't realize this was coming like this, and it felt
like not only was this person someone that you know,

(28:24):
we could talk to and felt comfortable talking to, but
also like I personally was like I feel like the
reason that and not that I necessarily need you to
quote unquote help, but just because you know, I talk
to my friends about things, and it feels good to
say things to my friends.

Speaker 3 (28:43):
But my friends are.

Speaker 2 (28:43):
My friends, right, and so yeah, there may be moments
where they're gonna be like, Terrika, you wrong, but there
will also mostly be moments where they're like, they're my friends,
so they're gonna have my fat and I needed that
outside person to be like, what's your feel is okay?
But I also needed that outside person to be like

(29:04):
Sishue tripping, And that was so necessary, right, But I
think what made it so difficult was because when you
have this.

Speaker 3 (29:14):
You're the strong person, You're the strong friend.

Speaker 2 (29:18):
You can do everything like it doesn't necessarily feel like
it's comfortable to share, but something that I thought of
or thought about and this might be crazy. And this
is where I would love your input. Is that I
understand that it's your job, but I also feel like, wow,
I don't know what this person is going through, Like

(29:40):
how difficult can it be for her to hear my problems?

Speaker 3 (29:43):
She might be having her own stuff going on.

Speaker 2 (29:45):
She might be thinking about you know what I mean,
and so I probably shouldn't be thinking about that.

Speaker 3 (29:49):
But the impath in me.

Speaker 2 (29:50):
Is also like, I don't want to burden somebody else
with listening to me vent when I don't know what
they got going on, like.

Speaker 3 (29:57):
Kicking her in the butt. I don't want to tell
everybody that know what I mean, so I do.

Speaker 4 (30:01):
Can you can.

Speaker 2 (30:02):
You maybe give us some insight on how you find
your own way to balance what you what you deal
with with your clients, but also how you handle your
own personal mental health as a mental health professional.

Speaker 4 (30:18):
Yeah, it's so much in it that I want to
respond to, So I'm gonna try to get to all
of it. Sure, just just bring me back. But I wanna,
I wanna.

Speaker 5 (30:26):
I would be remiss if I didn't acknowledge the emotion
that even comes up with this conversation.

Speaker 4 (30:31):
Yeah.

Speaker 5 (30:31):
Right, And regardless of whether you might be feeling emotion
because you resonate or connect with one of the stories
that you shared, you might be feeling emotion because it
is such a powerful thing to hear that it is
okay to feel, right, whatever you feel, it's a powerful
thing to hear you. You don't have to keep that
cape on, like you can send it to the dry
cleaners and hang it in the closet, like you don't

(30:53):
have to be that super person.

Speaker 4 (30:55):
Right And because and I know you've heard it.

Speaker 5 (30:58):
One of the most powerful things you can do sometimes though,
is to ask for help and support.

Speaker 4 (31:05):
Right.

Speaker 5 (31:06):
And so to your point, you say, but I'm the
strong one, right, So I'm not gonna go burden anybody.

Speaker 4 (31:11):
I'm the strong one. I'm the one people who come.

Speaker 5 (31:13):
To But sometimes I say, don't do your friends that disservice.
Let your friends be your friends, right. It's so fascinating
to me, and I know a lot of people. I
do it myself sometimes where I'm the strong one. I
can handle it. I don't need them, but that I'm
denying my friends the privilege of being my friends. So
I think I'm the only one who can be a
friend who can hold others stright, right. That doesn't do
them a service, and that doesn't allow them to pour

(31:36):
into me in the ways that they may want to,
because I'm creating that block.

Speaker 4 (31:40):
Right. So we talk a lot about boundaries and saying no.

Speaker 5 (31:45):
Boundaries is also about what you say yes to, and
sometimes it's important to say yes to yourself and to
say yes to allowing your friends and your support system
to be there to say yes. It's uncomfortable, and I'm
gonna call this person who's a therapist and walk in
the office. But in my journey to say yes to me,
I'm gonna walk with that discomfort into that office and

(32:10):
try to do something for myself, right, And so I
think that becomes important, Like it's sometimes the boundary is
choosing you right, and so you ask how do I
listen to things and how do I take care of
my own health and well being?

Speaker 4 (32:26):
And I'm I'm gonna be honest.

Speaker 5 (32:28):
Yes, sometimes I am working with people and I'm like, oh, right,
like this is this is a lot, because it's a lot.
It is a lot, but that's the human experience, right.
But there is such a power in doing that with
someone as opposed to doing it without. So I see myself. So,

(32:48):
like I said, I'm going all over the place. But
we talked earlier about some of the reasons why it
might be hard to walk in. I'm a person of faith,
so I was raised as a Christian. I'm a Christian,
identify as a person of faith. And one of the
things that I know sometimes is instead of going to
talk to somebody, you should.

Speaker 3 (33:00):
Pray, pray about it, pray away.

Speaker 5 (33:03):
If you got something going on, it's just deep, go
deeper in the word, right, Like, just go deeper in
the word. And I say this, you can have God
and a therapist. I feel like God with me in
this position to be able to offer support, right, And
so you can have both. There's no singular way to
seek out support. And so for me, when somebody comes

(33:25):
into my office. I see, I am here to try
to help them. My first job is to listen, period.
I need to listen to understand what's going on, and
then together will work to try to determine what they
need in this moment to help them, whether that's me,
whether that's somebody else, whether that's me and somebody else, like,
we'll work together to figure out what that looks like.
So it's in part training, but I also think some

(33:48):
of it is just the capacity to sit with people
and hold what they are bringing to you. That is
a really powerful thing. And yes, I care about my
client's a great deal. Like I'm human, you know what
I'm saying. I care about what they're going through. I
care about what they experience, and there are sometimes when
what they're experiencing is emotional to me. But I recognize

(34:11):
just because I can sit with the minute, it doesn't
belong to me, right, So that's one of the ways
that I make the distinction. I can listen and try
to offer support. I can offer what my training has
allowed me to be able to offer, but it doesn't
belong to me, so it's not mine. That's definitely not
even burden, not even burden I don't say burden. It's

(34:32):
not my responsibility. There you go to hold on to
it and to determine how they move next. My job
is to walk with them and to try to help
them as best I can. But it doesn't belong to me.
I don't have ownership over anybody's.

Speaker 4 (34:48):
Life but my own right.

Speaker 5 (34:49):
So that's one of the ways that I kind of
keep some distance, even though I may feel intently in
terms of how I take care of myself.

Speaker 1 (34:55):
I have.

Speaker 5 (34:55):
My family is strong, my faith is strong. I have
a really good network of friends, some of them who
also happen to be in this profession, so they get
it and I can have conversations with them. But I
also need my alone time. I need my time to
chill out and to not have to talk to anybody
or be connected to anybody. Whether I'm sitting on my
couch watching Netflix, so whether I'm hiking in Sweetwater Park

(35:17):
in Atlanta, or you know what I mean, whether I
am just taking time to have my phone on do
not disturb. Yes, I have a combination of things that
I've used to help me try to stay charged in
order to try to.

Speaker 4 (35:33):
Do this work.

Speaker 2 (35:34):
Yeah. Yeah, I'm an extrovert, and I'll be doing that
same thing. I love being around people. I get my
energy from people. But I need my two days for
y'all to just leave me alone, just let me get
it back, and then we're back in the street.

Speaker 4 (35:47):
Can everybody be charges differently? Right?

Speaker 5 (35:49):
And it's you have to a part of this health
and wellness. It's about Yes, it's about your well being.
It's about how you take care of yourself, but it's
also about how you recharge and how you restore your energy. Right.
It's you know, it's how you feel your own cup, right,
so that you can show up for you, not just
so you can show up for other people. That's a bonus, right,
But it's how you feel your cup so that you

(36:10):
can show up for you.

Speaker 3 (36:12):
Love that.

Speaker 2 (36:13):
We're gonna take a quick break and then when we
come back, because I see Cheryl got something cooking over there?

Speaker 3 (36:18):
Girl, are you cooking? I see it?

Speaker 2 (36:20):
But when we come back, we're going to continue this conversation.
And it's been a great conversation thus far. Hold on
and stay with us, Cheryl, you was cooking with something
over there.

Speaker 3 (36:38):
I'm not going to let you cook.

Speaker 1 (36:39):
Go ahead, you know, I told you my mind is
in so many places, and having this conversation like, yeah,
I'm getting so emotional because like you're just hitting on
so many things that I know I went through as
an athlete when I played and even now continue to, you.

Speaker 3 (36:57):
Know, just feel certain things.

Speaker 1 (37:00):
But I think as an athlete, like we're held to
such a high standard by just the fans and the
media and the public and even our family and friends,
that that shit gets so heavy sometimes that you know.

Speaker 3 (37:16):
We're just like we just deal with it. We just
figured out we deal with it.

Speaker 6 (37:21):
And no one has a clue what we're actually dealing
with and feeling. So my question to you is, because
it seems like more and more athletes are opening up
about it, right I can look at so many athletes,
male athletes on the NBA side, WNBA.

Speaker 3 (37:37):
Side, and other sports as well.

Speaker 1 (37:39):
My question to you is, why do you think so
many athletes per se haven't before now, like, hadn't really
reached out to talk to someone to help with their
mental health.

Speaker 5 (37:58):
I think it goes back to this stigma that we
talked about before, right, Like, certainly in the same way
that we mentioned the fact that mental health always has
always existed, I think there were likely some who did
seek support, we just didn't talk about it. They didn't
publicize it, right they if they sought support, it was
in the quiet of night, right like, they did not
discuss it publicly. And so I really think to your

(38:21):
question of kind of why why didn't they talk about
it then? And maybe even why are they talking about
it now? I think we reached a tipping point where
athletes reached a point where they were demanding people to
see their humanity right, And so I think about the
current climate that we're in in which we will talk
about mental health and we people know that May has

(38:43):
Mental Health Awareness Month. I in trippered a lot of
that too, athletes. And then in twenty eighteen is for
the NBA in particular when DeMar dearro's In tweeted this
depression gets the best of me. And then later that year,
Kevin Love released his Players Tribune article. And I'll go
back further because Shamikwa Hole's Law had been an advocate
prior to both of those moments. And so I think

(39:04):
it is seeing people who are excellent at what they do,
outstanding at their craft, and seeing them talk about challenges
and difficulties and mental health concerns and how they manage those.

Speaker 4 (39:22):
I think that gave more people permission, because.

Speaker 5 (39:25):
What I think happened is to your point, we do
in our society put athletes on a pedestal that is
so far elevated. It is a there's a weight that
comes with it, There's an unrealistic expectation that comes along
with it, There's a pressure that comes with it. And
I think the other thing that tends to happen is
because we emphasize and focus on your excellence and your

(39:47):
greatness so much, that can have.

Speaker 4 (39:49):
A dehumanizing effect.

Speaker 5 (39:51):
We see your greatness, we see the performance, and we
applaud and elevate the athlete, and we become blind to
the person to and that can be very dehumanizing to
feel like your value, your worth.

Speaker 4 (40:06):
Is wrapped up, wrapped up in what you do.

Speaker 5 (40:09):
And so what I think this current era is about
is athletes saying I'm a person first, and the fact
that I am excellent at my craft does not erase
the fact that I'm a human, and it also does
not elevate me beyond the ills of society. There is

(40:29):
whatever happens in society happens in sports. Sport is not
this neutral space. It's a microcosum. So the stress that
you experience as a person outside of sport happens in sport.
Racism it's president. Sports sexism, it's president. General sexism is president.
And sports athletes deal with stress. Their stress around growing
your family, their stress around meeting your family's expectations. They're

(40:52):
stress around being the first in your family to reach
a certain economic laws and all of the expectations that
come along with it. If it exists in the world,
it exists in sports. If humans experience it, so do athlete.
And so I think this era has been What I
want you to do is not allow my greatness and

(41:15):
whatever my field to play, is to make you forget
that I'm a human and I'm a person. And just
because I'm great and I might have signed up to
be in this professional sports space, doesn't mean I signed
up to be dehumanized, right, And so when we hear
athletes sharing their story, when we hear athletes talking about
the very real lives that they are trying to live
just like all of us, I think it gives us permission.

(41:37):
It gives us permission differently to think about what is
getting help look like, what is getting support look like?
What is using my resources look like?

Speaker 1 (41:45):
Right?

Speaker 5 (41:45):
And I'm actually grateful to athletes because I think, truly
they are the catalyst for why we're having this mental
health conversation in the way we're having it today.

Speaker 3 (41:56):
Yeah, I absolutely love that.

Speaker 2 (41:57):
It's funny because I remember who was it Charles Barkley
said years.

Speaker 3 (42:01):
Ago about not being a role model.

Speaker 2 (42:03):
It was And I always thought that was funny because realistically,
I think that whether they know it or not, all
athletes are.

Speaker 1 (42:10):
Role models, whether you choose to be, or whether you
choose to be or not.

Speaker 3 (42:14):
And it's not in the way that.

Speaker 2 (42:17):
People assume the definition of role model to be. I
think that athletes, to me, are incredible role models of
what it means to be a real human being.

Speaker 3 (42:28):
There are some who get it right and there are
some who get it wrong.

Speaker 2 (42:33):
I will give a personal example of what I mean
by that. So, my mom, love my mom. Let me
disclaim her love my mom right. My mom is fifty
six years old. She has eight children, and she had
me when she was fifteen. She had my brother when
she was sixteen. She had my sister at nineteen, So
before you were twenty you had three kids, and for

(42:55):
me this might sound wild, but I looked at my
mom not negatively to say you crazy for having three
kids by nineteen, but I looked at her as a
role model to say, I see what my mom is doing,
I see how my mom has struggled. This is how
I am going to do things differently so that I
am not put in the same position. It was not

(43:16):
to say, hey, I ain't trying to be like you.
It was more to say I appreciate you doing what
you had to do, but I'm looking at you as
a role model of what I want.

Speaker 3 (43:26):
To do differently.

Speaker 2 (43:28):
And I think as athletes, sometimes we look at them
and we say, oh, this person's a terrible individual.

Speaker 3 (43:35):
Maybe, but realistically they are put in a.

Speaker 2 (43:38):
Position where they have to do things a certain way,
and you can either look at that and say, hey,
I think that you are doing the best you can do.
Maybe I want to look at what you're doing and
do things a little bit differently. There are other athletes
that you're like, hey, I want to be just like
that guy. Maybe you do, you don't know, But at
the end of the day, I think everybody gives us

(43:59):
an example of what it means to truly live in
their own truth.

Speaker 3 (44:03):
And that's just kind of is where it is.

Speaker 4 (44:05):
Yeah, and I'll add to that. I think the thing
for us to also remember is we see.

Speaker 5 (44:10):
A sliver of these individuals lives, right, and we also,
in many instances, we see what they choose to show us.

Speaker 3 (44:18):
Because social media ain't giving you the real science.

Speaker 5 (44:21):
That's exactly what I'm saying, right, Like, you're seeing what
people choose to show. But even if you look at
their social media, which is what they choose to put
out there, if you look at interviews, and you look
at games, and you look at other appearances because they're
in the public eye so you can see them publicly,
you still are only seeing a sliver of this of
who this person is, right, And I think we really

(44:43):
have to remember that, right, And and the way I.

Speaker 4 (44:46):
Will spind it is think about your own life.

Speaker 5 (44:49):
Right, if people if you were broadcast on TV, if
you were interviewed, what would people say about you?

Speaker 4 (44:56):
Right? And again it would only be a sliver.

Speaker 5 (44:59):
And so I think we I have to sometimes try
to have more empathy and more more compassion.

Speaker 4 (45:04):
Right for just the human experience.

Speaker 5 (45:06):
Because I'll be perfectly honest, I would not want to
have my life lived out loud in that way.

Speaker 4 (45:11):
I wouldn't want my life documented in that.

Speaker 5 (45:13):
Way, like I just wouldn't because I know to be
humanists to be flawed. I realized that, right, And I
would not want to be trying to figure out this
life thing under the scrutiny of the public's eye, because
the public can be very judgmental and very unforgiving in
some ways.

Speaker 4 (45:33):
But again, I just think it's that that idea.

Speaker 5 (45:35):
Of just have a little more grace, a little more compassion,
a little more empathy for what I'm seeing is a sliver, right,
and that sliver does not tell the whole story. But
I also wanted to go back to something else you
said in terms of what you saw around you influenced you,
not in terms of but it still influenced you in

(45:55):
what you wanted to do, just how you wanted to
do things differently, right.

Speaker 4 (45:59):
And I think.

Speaker 5 (46:00):
About one thing I haven't said about mental health, like
we've talked about it as a continuum from it includes wellness,
it includes illness, like it's a continuum. We've talked about
mental health as a state of well being. Well, I
also talk about mental health from the standpoint of our
mental health is impacted by the things that happen in us,
to us and around us. Right, So, our mental health
is impacted by the things that are in us, our biology.

(46:21):
There are absolutely some genetic elements that can contribute to
the presence of mental health conditions. If you have a
first degree relative who has depression, you're more likely to
experience depressive symptoms yourself, things like bipolar disorder, schizophrenia. Those
things tend to run in families because there is a
genetic and a biological component. Right, So, our mental health
is impacted by what happens in us. It's impacted by

(46:42):
what happens to us. So the social environment that we're around,
the things that we are exposed to growing up, the
things that we see, the things that we witness in
our household, in our school, and our community. Those things
can have an impact on us and can shape us.
So our social world and our social environment, which also
can include cultural beliefs and cultural norms, all of that

(47:06):
can influence our mental health as well. So what happens
in us, what happens to us, what happens around us
society at large, and those tend to be things that
we don't necessarily have any control over, but those are
things that can impact our experience and impact our world.
The environmental one of the societal factors that I'll give

(47:26):
that we all can resonate with.

Speaker 4 (47:27):
This COVID. COVID happened around us. None of us asked
what we didn't sign up for. We didn't know what
was going on, We didn't know what was coming.

Speaker 5 (47:33):
But I don't care where you were, you were impacted
by that experience, right, So, when we think about mental health,
I think one of the things that we've historically done.
And Cheryl, this goes back to a question you asked earlier,
like why don't we why haven't we talked about as athletes?
Why don't we talk about it as people? Why don't
we go and seek health? And And I think it's
because we've historically thought about mental health as just exclusively

(47:55):
being an individual thing.

Speaker 4 (47:57):
Either you are well or you are not. And if
then it's something.

Speaker 5 (48:01):
That you're doing that's contributing to you not being well,
Like we've made and talked about mental health as if
it was exclusively a reflection of the individual. But the
truth is, our mental health lives at the intersection between
us as individuals and the environments that we're in. You

(48:23):
cannot separate the environmental element from how that interacts with
us to impact our mental health. And I would go further.
Our mental health lives at that intersection. Our ability to
be successful lives there performance physical health. Like everything happens
in context, and so, yes, there are some things we
can do as individuals, but when we think about it,

(48:43):
like it all lives at the intersection of who we
are as individuals and the environments that we're in that
really impacts our health and world being and even our
capacity to be healthy and well being. And I'll leave
I'll give an analogy here. It's like a garden. If
I plan a seed in a rock bed and the
seed doesn't grow, like, is that the seeds fault or
then I not put it in the proper environment to

(49:05):
allow it to thrive correct, right. Whereas if I put
it in some rich nutrient rich soil and I water
it and it's got sunlight and I talk to it,
I've created a different environment for that seed to grow.
And so I think, yes, there are things that we
can individually do to take care of ourselves, but we
also have to be cognizant of the environments because the

(49:27):
environments can impact our capacity to be healthy and well.

Speaker 1 (49:31):
Also, jeez, sure, I just wanted to ask you. It's
not a quest, well, it is a question. But like
for our listeners who who may be struggling right like
I'm struggling with whatever it is, I don't quite know
what to do. What advice would you give our listeners

(49:54):
if they're in that space of I don't know what
to do right now.

Speaker 5 (50:02):
One, if you're in that space, I certainly empathize with
feeling like there is something going on and you're just
not sure what step to take. And so I would say,
if you have a trusted friend, a trusted family member,
so anybody that you trust in your life, I would say,
first try to reach out to that person to just

(50:22):
name it for yourself, to give yourself space and permission
to name. I'm going through something and I'm not quite
sure what to do. Certainly, what I can do is
share some information that you can include in your show
notes around resources that people can reach out to. There
are resources where you can reach to look for a therapist.
I think about psychology today, I think about therapy for

(50:43):
black girls.

Speaker 4 (50:44):
I think about a couple of other.

Speaker 5 (50:45):
Resources that I could share where people could look for
a therapist. But I also realize not everybody needs a therapist,
So what I'll also do is share information. Mental Health
America again, this is Mental Health Awareness Month. They have
a series of screens on their website where if you
are not sure what's happening, but you're feeling certain things,

(51:06):
so you can take a quick screener that will share
with you and offer recommendation at the end of that
screener if you might need to see additional support like that,
if it doesn't seem that you're experiencing this concern, maybe
it's a stressor. But I can share some of those
things because sometimes it's not always about I need to
talk to somebody. Sometimes it's like I need to understand
what these symptoms are. The American Psychiatric Association has a

(51:30):
series of explainer videos. They're like one to two minutes
in length, but what they do is they share information
about signs and symptoms of different conditions, right because I
think that's the other thing, is just being more aware
and having more language to describe the things that we're feeling,
having a better understanding. I call it what we often

(51:50):
refer to it as increasing your mental health literacy. So
what are signs and symptoms of certain conditions? What is stress?
What can I do to cope and take care of myself?
I'll share some of that information so that your listeners
will at least have a place that they can go
to potentially obtain some information to maybe help them start
to sort through what this is and what.

Speaker 4 (52:11):
I might need.

Speaker 3 (52:12):
I love that. I like that. I like that for me.

Speaker 5 (52:16):
Yeah, and I think and to that point, let me
also say, and we should all check in with ourselves
from time to time.

Speaker 3 (52:21):
Just pause and ask.

Speaker 5 (52:22):
Yourself, how am I feeling, what am I thinking? How
am I showing up? How are my relationships?

Speaker 4 (52:30):
Right?

Speaker 5 (52:30):
Like, just ask yourself. Just do a check in, Right,
It's kind of like an oil check, just because you
check the oil. I mean, you need your oil, but
you need to check it these check it what the
level is, right, So just kind of do a maintenance
check for yourself, because that awareness is the first step
towards any of this, right, towards pursuing health and well

(52:50):
being in any capacity. It's important to be aware of
what you need, of what you want, of where you are,
and it can be hard, but you are worth it.
You are worth taking that time to ask yourself that question,
how am I doing?

Speaker 2 (53:08):
I love that I got two final questions for you
before we get out of here. I can't have you
on the show without you telling the people who may
not be aware of what exactly mind health is, what
exactly is that program and how it benefits players across
the basketball spectrum.

Speaker 5 (53:25):
Like I said, it's a mental health, wellness and performance program,
and so basically I serve as the director, which basically
means I do a lot of strategic planning and trying
to provide consultation and guidance.

Speaker 4 (53:35):
And so it includes a couple of different levels.

Speaker 5 (53:37):
So one we try to provide guidance to all the
teams around what type of mental health support and mental
performance related support you need to have in market available
at your team.

Speaker 4 (53:47):
So that's one thing guidance.

Speaker 5 (53:48):
The other thing, we provide education about mental health, wellness
and performance. But we also provide clinical services. And so
every team NBA WNBA G League team, every team has
a licensed mental health provider and a psychiatrist that is
connected to their teams in market, and many of them
also have mental performance consultants, right, and so that trio

(54:10):
of professionals are within our network in the team markets
to provide support. So that's how the education and the
clinical service comes into place through our team based professionals.

Speaker 4 (54:19):
And then the other thing that we're really.

Speaker 5 (54:20):
Trying to do through the mind Health program is promote
culture change, to change this conversation around mental health and
mental performance, to humanize it, and also to stress the
importance of Again it's really about, yes, we're here to
help you recover and restore functioning when needed, but we're
also here to help you maintain your functioning and enhance

(54:41):
your functioning. And our guiding principles for the program are
to humanize mental health, to elevate performance, and to honor
lived experience. And so we're trying to do that through
having dedicated resources at the teams who can support players, coaches,
and staff as needed. Again, so when we talk about

(55:02):
success and performance and what it is to be to
be excellent, were talking about it from the top of
your head to the bottom of your feet.

Speaker 2 (55:10):
I adore that because it is so necessary as we
continue to see, you know, conversations, I think about Hailey
van Lift, who's entering into the WNBA and has talked
about publicly how mental health has impacted her. I love
that there are resources available at the team level for
these athletes. And my last question is what can we do,

(55:34):
like Cheryl myself, who want to help continue to spread
the word about the importance and impact of mental health
and mental health awareness. It may is Mental Health Awareness Month,
but it doesn't have to only be during the month
of May in which we have these conversations. So what
can someone who is not a medical professional in the

(55:55):
mental health space do to continue the conversation and continue
to impact the level of awareness around mental health. I mean,
this is outstanding and excellent, right, like just having the
conversation being being willing to have a conversation, and again
a conversation that is not just focus on illness or
the absence of illness, but a conversation that really is

(56:17):
focused on trying to understand what mental health is, where
it shows up, how it shows up, and what we
can proactively do to promote our own well being as individuals,
as a community, right as a collective, Like I.

Speaker 4 (56:31):
Think those are some of the things that become really important.

Speaker 3 (56:33):
And then continue to.

Speaker 5 (56:34):
Educate yourselves, right because we all need to be educated
about wellness practices and things that you can do to
promote health and identify what are the things that really
helped me to feel well, right, but also what are
the things that indicate that I'm a bit more stressed
than normal and I might need to step back and

(56:54):
do some of my wellness practices. Like I think, we
need to have a broad conversation about health as it
relates to our mental wellbeing, our cognitive wellbeing, our social
well being. So having conversations, continuing to learn and learn
about this space. And then there are some trainings that
are available specifically for folks who are not mental health

(57:16):
professionals but are interested. And again I can share some
of that information with you as well, because it could
be helpful to take one of those trainings, because it's
a concentrated way just to learn more so that you
can be an advocate for yourself, so that you can
be an advocate for others, so that we can collectively
work to create the healthy environments and spaces where we

(57:37):
all can thrive, right, because that takes all of us
to be a part of that journey and to be
a part of that process.

Speaker 3 (57:44):
Yeah, so good, so good.

Speaker 2 (57:48):
Thank you, thank you much, thank you. This was such
a great conversation. I already know we're going to have
you back on the show at some point, So don't
lose no emails or contact.

Speaker 4 (58:00):
Okay, I would love it.

Speaker 5 (58:01):
I would love it, And you know, just keep the
conversation going, right, And I think the last thing that
you said that you asked, like, what can we do?
I think just recognize the humanity and yourself and the
humanity and others, right, and just try to move with
a bit more compassion and a bit more grace towards yourself.
Just try to try to make make more room for

(58:23):
being human, because we all are trying to make it
in this this thing called life.

Speaker 4 (58:28):
There is no oad map, but we are all on
the journey.

Speaker 5 (58:32):
And so I think that too, just thinking about how
you can be that compassion in the space and be
that reflection of humanity and just offer to others what
you want them to give to you.

Speaker 3 (58:45):
Absolutely, I love that.

Speaker 2 (58:47):
That's why I live my life so transparently, because I'd
be like, girl, I ain't got this shit together, right, No, right,
it's not right none, right, And then I mean it
won't get together, and right now it won't be all right,
but like you have, you just have got to for
being a human.

Speaker 5 (59:06):
I can't stress that enough, like you just it's it's
it's it's a human thing.

Speaker 3 (59:11):
I love that.

Speaker 5 (59:12):
I love it.

Speaker 3 (59:13):
Thank you so much, Thank y'all, Cheryl.

Speaker 2 (59:21):
This was a heavy conversation, but at the same time,
it was so necessary, so needed, and we definitely got
to bring her back in July for Black women Mental
Health Awareness Month because like, there are so many things
that we didn't even get a chance to touch on
in this interview that are still so pertinent to what

(59:43):
we need.

Speaker 3 (59:44):
If that makes any.

Speaker 1 (59:45):
Sense, Yes, one hundred percent. I got tears in my
eyes still. But you know, tea for me just just
listening to everything that she said, and especially in our community,
the black community, mental health has always been looked at
as an illness, right, like, yeah, this is we just

(01:00:07):
don't go see anybody, we don't talk about it. And
you know, I she just brought up so many emotions
in the things that I thought I had gotten over
or dealt with properly.

Speaker 3 (01:00:19):
It's still in there somewhere.

Speaker 1 (01:00:21):
So to your point, I would absolutely love to bring
her back on the show.

Speaker 3 (01:00:25):
But I just I so appreciate.

Speaker 1 (01:00:29):
Doctor gen coming on spending some time with us, and
I hope that there's something she said that resonates with
someone and they know that they can find help somewhere.

Speaker 2 (01:00:41):
Absolutely, there's one thing that she says that I just
want to repeat because it just makes so much sense
when you just really think about it.

Speaker 3 (01:00:50):
And that thing is, you don't have.

Speaker 2 (01:00:53):
To be physically ill to understand the importance of physical health.
You don't have to be sick to know how important
it is to take the steps to not be sick.
And so if we can understand that concept with physical health,
we have to understand that concept with mental health. We
don't have to have something wrong for us to be

(01:01:14):
taking the steps to ensure that we are in a
mental well state. And I love that and I am
for sure going to carry that moving forward. So before
we get out of here, Chuyl, how are you going
to level us up today?

Speaker 1 (01:01:30):
What something short and sweet along the lines of our
conversation today with doctor g and it says, strength isn't
about never breaking, it's about always rebuilding.

Speaker 3 (01:01:47):
I need that, Yeah, I need that today.

Speaker 1 (01:01:51):
Strength isn't about never breaking, It's about always rebuilding.

Speaker 2 (01:01:55):
Absolutely, Absolutely, Mike has been dropped, and so with that,
we just want to say thank you guys.

Speaker 3 (01:02:03):
For continuing to listen to Levels to This.

Speaker 2 (01:02:06):
We are going to be back next week with more
next level conversations just about the real shit that we
go through as women. But I want you guys to remember,
I tell you guys all the time that this isn't
just our show, it's our show. So we want to
hear from you. Leave us a review at Apple Podcasts.
You can email us at Levels to This Podcast at
gmail dot com tell us what you thought about the

(01:02:27):
show or what you might want to hear from us
coming up next. You can follow us on Instagram at lttpod.
Thank you for everybody who's followed us already. We love
the interaction. But and so then keep your mentals ground
level and we will be back next week.

Speaker 3 (01:02:41):
Peace guys, and listen to Levels.

Speaker 1 (01:02:46):
To This on America's number one podcast network, iHeart. Open
your free iHeart app and search Levels to This with
Cheryl Swoops and Tarika Foster Brasby and start listening.

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Terrika Foster-Brasby

Sheryl Swoopes

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}High Level Conversations: Dr. Kensa Gunter, Director of NBA Mind Health