On this episode of Levels to This, hosts Sheryl Swoopes and Terrika Foster-Brasby are joined by Managing Director of Secretariat and Leader of Global Sports Tamika Tremaglio. In their conversation with the former NBPA executive director, they get into what equitable compensation looks like for WNBA players, negotiating the CBA, and the growth of the W.
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Levels to This is an iHeart women's sports production in
partnership with Deep Blue Sports and Entertainment. You can find
us on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you
get your podcasts.
Speaker 2 (00:16):
Hey, everybody, what's up. It's your girl Trica Pasta Brasby.
Speaker 3 (00:19):
You know, I gotta give.
Speaker 4 (00:20):
It to you what it do? This is your girl
Cheryl Swoops.
Speaker 3 (00:25):
What's up, y'all? Hey, what's going on? Y'all?
Speaker 2 (00:31):
And welcome to another episode of Levels to This. This
is the podcast where we always keep it real and
we talk about the shit that women go through. And
we're gonna be talking about a lot of shit that
women are going through on this podcast today, specifically the
women in the WNBA and how they need to get
they coins. But before we go there, we gotta catch
(00:54):
up Suro like what's going what's going on with you?
Says like, how was you went to Alaska this past week?
Speaker 5 (01:00):
Did?
Speaker 1 (01:01):
Oh my gosh, I did? First time ever? You know,
it's so crazy, don't y'all.
Speaker 4 (01:08):
Don't judge me. Don't laugh at me. You can laugh
at me. I don't care, but don't judge me. I was,
I know, I never I've never been to Alaska.
Speaker 1 (01:16):
And even though I know that Alaska is a part
of the United States, I asked my husband.
Speaker 4 (01:24):
I said, baby, do I need a passport to go
to Alaska?
Speaker 3 (01:28):
Ma'am?
Speaker 4 (01:28):
He was way, wait, wait, he was like. He didn't
say ma'am.
Speaker 1 (01:32):
He just ignored me, and I was like hello, And
then he looked at me he said, did you really
ask me that? Like I think I knew the answer.
But here's here's why I asked that. One I've never been,
but two, like it was at almost an all day
travel Will you get there?
Speaker 4 (01:54):
You know what I mean?
Speaker 1 (01:55):
So I was like, yeah, am I going to another
country or anyway?
Speaker 4 (02:00):
Y'all can laugh in judgment.
Speaker 2 (02:01):
I was just gonna say, you do have to go
over another country to get to Alaska?
Speaker 4 (02:06):
Facts? Facts?
Speaker 1 (02:08):
But I was in Wrangel, Alaska, population of two thousand people.
But te, I gotta tell you, like it was a
work trip, but it was also a mini vaca for me.
I got to do a camp with Jordan, but I
just I had some me time. My view was like
right on the water, it was so beautiful, the people
(02:30):
were amazing. It was a great time. I will say this,
I will absolutely go back. I loved my time there
in Alaska was the weather was beautiful.
Speaker 4 (02:44):
It was a great trip.
Speaker 2 (02:46):
That's awesome. I'm excited about that for you.
Speaker 1 (02:50):
I mean I didn't go on a cruise though. I mean, listen, okay,
my cruise was everything.
Speaker 3 (02:58):
I needed.
Speaker 4 (02:59):
That crew I need, we crews. We know.
Speaker 3 (03:02):
I came back.
Speaker 2 (03:04):
I came back so refreshed. But I've been trying to
go to Alaska for years. I used to watch the
show called Ain't No used to I still watch the
show called Life Below Zero.
Speaker 3 (03:15):
I started watching it during the pandemic.
Speaker 2 (03:17):
Yes, and all these people live a subsistence lifestyle and
they hunt and gather their own food, and they make
their own things, and they basically live in a wilderness.
Speaker 3 (03:26):
And I'm like, I won't be able to.
Speaker 2 (03:28):
Do it, like I can't survive, but I would love
to see how y'all do it? Like I want to
go to Alaska now and so and Liah's cat. Yes, yeah, yes,
that was like my husband's favorite show dead lis Ca.
Speaker 3 (03:43):
See what I'm saying.
Speaker 2 (03:44):
Yeah, Life below zero is my is my joint, Like
I love, I am so obsessed with Alaska. So we
gotta have another episode where we can get like more
into death into sure doing and all that good stuff,
no doubt, but this week for me, I actually he
went to Monday Night Raw. I went to a wrestling
live event, and I was very sad when I left,
(04:08):
even though it was a great time. I was sad
because my favorite wrestler did not appear. There was no
Jay Uso, and I was like that, yet I got on. Yes,
I did not get to YEAT. I did not get to.
Speaker 6 (04:23):
Yeats, and I am in my feelings about not getting
to Yeat. I was supposed to be thousands of other fans. Okay,
I have my jusot on, I have my glasses.
Speaker 2 (04:38):
I was ready, do you hear me? I was practicing.
I was ready, and he never He never showed up.
Speaker 4 (04:48):
No, I know was he supposed to be there?
Speaker 2 (04:52):
Well, Monday Night Raw is like typically his show because
superstars are either going to be on Raw or they're
going to be on SmackDown on Friday.
Speaker 3 (05:00):
So I know Raw is his show.
Speaker 2 (05:02):
And he had just performed at SummerSlam in New York
this past weekend, So I was like, okay, you in
well not you know, New York, New Jersey, met life,
you met life.
Speaker 3 (05:11):
The Barclay's like that ain't shit, so he should be there.
Speaker 2 (05:15):
And then other wrestlers came out whom he usually associates with,
So I was like, Bay, it's coming. I'm gonna wait
for this music to drop. And it never dropped. And
then the next day I saw on the Titan trom
was the big ass screen. I was like, thank you
for coming to Monday Night, Raw, We hope you had
a great time.
Speaker 3 (05:33):
And I was like, wait, so.
Speaker 1 (05:36):
Even though he didn't show up, did you have a
good time or no, I had a fantastic time.
Speaker 2 (05:43):
I will be going back on September fifteenth. On September fifteenth,
they will be in Springfield, Massachusetts at the mass Mutual Center,
which is thirty minutes away from my house. So I
don't have to drive two and a half hours how
to get to the show. It's thirty minutes. So I'm
I'm already in there. I'm already in there. Yeah, take
my money, take my money.
Speaker 4 (06:04):
Wwe I hate that for you.
Speaker 3 (06:08):
I did it really It really upset me.
Speaker 2 (06:10):
But you know what, though, you know what else upsets
me when Petail don't get paid. And that's what we're
talking about today, people who are not getting paid and
by people we mean the women of the WNBA. And
so we have an incredible guest who is going to
be joining us today to help us talk more about
what needs to happen to ensure that these women can
(06:31):
get what they rightfully deserve. And with that, yes, so
let's just go ahead and take this thing to the
next level. So we always say that we're super excited
(06:56):
to have a guest on the show, and I'm never
lying when I say this, Like I truly mean that
we are excited to have our guests.
Speaker 3 (07:04):
On the show.
Speaker 2 (07:04):
And so today we are incredibly excited because we are
joined by the one and only Tamika Tremalio. Okay, she
is the former executive director of the MVPA.
Speaker 3 (07:15):
She literally led the charge on.
Speaker 2 (07:16):
One of the most impactful CBA in NBA history, twenty
twenty three NBA Collective Barneying Agreement, where she's secured more
than two hundred and fifty million dollars in annual salary
and benefits increase for the players. She is about her coins, Okay,
Because she's about her coins.
Speaker 3 (07:33):
I love that.
Speaker 2 (07:34):
But some people may not realize that she also played
a role in the twenty twenty WNBA negotiations and now
she's leading the global sports consulting at the Secretariat, and
so I am excited to welcome Tamika to the show.
So Tamika, welcome and thank you for being with us.
Speaker 7 (07:49):
Oh, thank you so much. It's a pleasure to be here.
Speaker 1 (07:52):
No, no, no, no, youka know each other well, Tamika
ain't just about the coins.
Speaker 4 (07:57):
Tamika is about buddy back.
Speaker 3 (08:00):
She's about the bag.
Speaker 4 (08:02):
Yeah, for.
Speaker 1 (08:05):
Herself, for the players, like all the things. And I
am just so excited to be having this conversation having
her on the show because Tamika, it's so many things
out there, so many I'll say it, ignorant people out
(08:26):
there that are like, oh, they don't need any more money.
Speaker 4 (08:31):
Just anyway.
Speaker 1 (08:32):
I just I'm so glad you're here because you can
shed a lot of knowledge on past negotiations and you know,
lots of questions.
Speaker 8 (08:41):
That we have that the people out there have.
Speaker 1 (08:44):
So again, looking gorgeous as beautiful as ever.
Speaker 4 (08:48):
Just thank you for joining us all.
Speaker 2 (08:52):
Yeah, So first and foremost, before we get into the
nitty gritty of the conversation, I know that you and
Cheryl have seen each other in a long time, so
y'all clearly know each other, have a past relationship. Can
you be the person to finally give me some.
Speaker 3 (09:10):
Dirt own show?
Speaker 5 (09:12):
I wish I could thank you telling you that. Every
time I see sha'all, I want to bow down. You know,
everybody wants some bowls down. I mean, get a Olympic
gold medalist. I mean, you could name Hall of Famer.
I mean, it's amazing to just be on the same
screen with her.
Speaker 7 (09:29):
So to me, that's all I can say.
Speaker 3 (09:31):
I can't find a single person.
Speaker 4 (09:34):
You're a hater.
Speaker 7 (09:35):
You're a hater.
Speaker 2 (09:39):
I have been trying to get some dirt own shehryl
for over a year now, and nobody will spill it.
Speaker 4 (09:45):
So to me, I keep telling her she's she's talking to.
Speaker 1 (09:49):
The wrong people. You talking to the wrong people. And
I ain't giving you that list. I'm not giving you
that other list.
Speaker 3 (09:57):
You just wait, you just wait.
Speaker 2 (09:59):
I'm gonna come across it is who got that dirt
But anyway, Tamika, you've been in this business and in
this industry for what over thirty years now? Were you
surprised that the WNBA players opted out of their CBA
when they did and why they did it?
Speaker 5 (10:16):
I was not surprised. In fact, I think it was
quite expected, particularly in light of how well the WNBA
is doing.
Speaker 7 (10:25):
I absolutely expected that they would do.
Speaker 1 (10:27):
So I'm going to start with the most recent conversation
that you know, is all over social media, and that
is from the All Star Game with the players wearing
the T shirt pay us what you owe us? When
you saw that, what was the first thing that kind
of popped in your mind?
Speaker 5 (10:45):
To Maka, Well, I will say that too, was not
surprising because the women have always been local around equity,
and when they talk about equity, they don't mean.
Speaker 7 (10:58):
You know, simply what you pay us, right, but you
know to the point that you.
Speaker 5 (11:02):
Started with today, but the whole bag, right, yeah, because
that's really what it's all about.
Speaker 7 (11:07):
So I was not an all surprise.
Speaker 5 (11:09):
There have been lots of conversations about you know, the
two point two billion dollar media deal, the you know,
two hundred and fifty million dollar team that was just purchased,
the fact that viewership has gone up one hundred and
forty percent, So it is no surprise that our women
would stand out there.
Speaker 7 (11:26):
And say pay us what you owe us. That was
not at all surprise.
Speaker 5 (11:29):
They did it in the bubble doing it on their behalf,
which was also good to see that it was standing
up for themselves as well.
Speaker 3 (11:35):
I'm so glad you mentioned that doing it in the bubble.
Speaker 2 (11:38):
Because I feel like people had forgotten like what this
league truly is and who this league truly is, Like
we see things like Pride Night, for example, Nobody was
doing that before the WNBA started doing it. You know,
they had limited television time and they took their time
and said, we don't care, We're still not going to
play this game.
Speaker 3 (11:57):
Because of what happened.
Speaker 2 (11:59):
And with Wisconsin in Milwaukee, they said, you know, we
got someone in ownership who doesn't represent us. Let's go
ahead and flip this Senate and get this person out
of here. So for me, it's like, how could you
expect anything less from a league and from a group
of people who have consistently shown you that they are
about their business and they will go as far as
(12:21):
it means to go to get whatever business it is done.
Speaker 3 (12:24):
They don't play that and I love that.
Speaker 2 (12:27):
But one thing, as Cheryl mentions All Star Game that
stood out to me was the conversations that came so
during All Star for those listening who may not know
or have heard. There was an opportunity for players to
sit down with the commissioner and have a conversation with
the league to kind of kick off the negotiation from
(12:47):
a face to face perspective. And coming from that conversation,
a lot of the players were saying that the first
proposal from the league was like a slap in the
face and just you know, they didn't seem like they
were on the same page. And so, given your expertise
with this, is this what you would say common or
natural that the first proposal would be very undesirable or
(13:10):
do you think that maybe there is some additional level
or layer of disrespect that the players are warranted and saying,
you know, I'm bs off that y'all would come at
us like this.
Speaker 5 (13:19):
Yeah, so really excellent points to rica. I think a
couple of things. One is, negotiation is precisely that, right.
It is a lot of give and take. The first
offer is typically never the best offer to you know,
equate it with being disrespectful to some extent as personal. Right,
and you are dealing with very sophisticated business women and
(13:42):
this is not personal, but they want to be paid
what they're owned, right, And you're also dealing with a
level of an athlete and professional woman who has been
paid for nil. Now, so very different than what we
experienced in twenty twenty, right when they weren't necessarily all
than being paid for a brand before they entered the league.
(14:02):
Now they know their worth and so as they're coming
to the table, they know their worth and they're expecting
to receive it. So I don't think it was a
matter of disrespect. I think it was more a matter
of maybe underestimating the power of the women within the w.
Speaker 4 (14:19):
Well tee, I'm going to add on to that.
Speaker 1 (14:21):
I totally agree with that, But as a former player,
I will tell you there is a part of a
player that's like, oh, like, how.
Speaker 4 (14:30):
You gonna come at us and disrespect us like that?
Speaker 7 (14:33):
Right?
Speaker 1 (14:33):
And Asia Wilson sat and did an interview the other
day and she.
Speaker 4 (14:39):
Said something about, you know, like.
Speaker 8 (14:43):
Get give us, give us what we deserve.
Speaker 1 (14:46):
And then she was like, no, it's not even that,
like give us what we've earned, right, Like, we've earned this.
We're not asking you to just give us something that
we don't deserve, something that we don't earn.
Speaker 4 (14:58):
Give us what we've earned, and.
Speaker 1 (15:00):
Tamika, I want to get your thoughts on a couple
of things. So, way back in the day when the
league first started, we kind of sort of went through
a CBA negotiation, nothing like it is today, right, But
to me, one of the biggest differences is back then
(15:21):
you only had a handful of players that were making
enough money right to make a living, even though we
deserve more. But what I love about what's happening now
is you have the collective. You have all of these women,
regardless of where they are on the pay scale.
Speaker 8 (15:40):
They're all like, no, we are all in this together.
Speaker 1 (15:43):
So either we're going to get what we're oled, what
we deserve, or we won't play. How serious do you
think the ladies are about sitting out?
Speaker 5 (15:59):
You know, I think they are very serious. I do
not think anyone's bluffing here. However, what I will say
is that it is clear that it is part of
the negotiation that we're kind of getting here to less
than four months and having to come up with a conclusion.
People tend to sort of do things when they're pressed
up against the wall to get things done, which I
(16:21):
do not think that this is at all a game, right,
It would not behoove anyone, quite honestly, for there to
be a lockout.
Speaker 7 (16:29):
They have such.
Speaker 5 (16:29):
Incredible momentum right now that no one wants to see
them stop playing, right But at the same time, I
think that they are very serious about wanting to make
sure that they are compensated in a way that's at
least commiserate to the success that the league is actually
now created and is actually obtaining.
Speaker 1 (16:49):
In saying that, right that, you think they're very serious
if there is a lockout, if they say we're not playing,
how much do you think that could potentially hurt where
we are right now with the W and the momentum
and you know, the attendance and the viewership and all
(17:10):
the things.
Speaker 5 (17:13):
Yeah, so you know, the truth is, I don't know
exactly what that would do, but I will tell you
that it would not be positive. I think for a
number of reasons. One, because there's so much momentum around it,
right and so everybody's watching. People are very into you know,
the W they're into the players, et cetera. So I
think that will be challenging. I also think the fact
(17:34):
that we've added new teams that are expected to start
in the next season, like how does that impact the
teams that are supposed to be coming on in the
next season. We have a brand new media deal. How
is that media deal going to be impacted? So, you know,
sort of there are many dominoes that will fall as
a result of you know, sort of not ending by
October thirty first, But the dominoes will fall on both sides.
Speaker 7 (17:57):
And at this point, who has more to lose? Right?
Speaker 5 (18:01):
You know, if you were playing a minimum player at
sixty six thousand dollars, you know, that may not seem.
Speaker 7 (18:07):
Like that much to hold out for. You know, why
should you just settle on our Chober thirty first.
Speaker 5 (18:12):
So they're being very intentional about the decisions that they're making,
but it is it is not to anyone's benefit to
actually lock out.
Speaker 2 (18:22):
Yeah, I would agree with that mindframe, But I've said
multiple times as well that I don't think they want
to do it, but I think they're willing to do
it if that is what it means to get what
they feel that they earned and that they deserve. But
I also don't see that being a conversation that would
be had until well into next year because that's usually
like a last resort.
Speaker 3 (18:43):
But with that, I am curious to know.
Speaker 2 (18:46):
You know, you've had to do this on the NBA
side too, right, And I started this by talking about
how you were someone that was offering or advising for
the twenty twenty deal, which at the time everyone talked
about what a groundbreaking CBA it was in twenty two Now,
we didn't know that a pandemic was getting ready to
happen immediately, but there were so many things that we
(19:09):
talked about at that time about the CBA, you know,
the healthcare and the parental arrangements that were made, and
the mental health aspect that was added on, and you know, like,
given where the world has evolved in twenty twenty five
versus twenty twenty, if it were you sitting at the
negotiating table, if it were you that were leading the
(19:30):
charge for this, what do you think would be maybe
some of your priorities given the way that the league
and the world itself has evolved since twenty twenty.
Speaker 5 (19:42):
Yeah, so I think what First of all, I think
the twenty twenty CBA was groundbreaking for a number of reasons.
And yeah, you know, there are even other leagues and
other countries that have followed the direction of the w
so we see it for women's soccer, et cetera. So
it is every people are pausing right now to see
what will happen in these negotiations. What was really groundbreaking
(20:04):
about that is that this is the very first time
that they were able to share in the revenue, and
so you know, everyone was happy about the women sort
of being able to benefit from where the w would go. Right,
everybody sort of had some skin in the gain, if
you will. What I would focus on right now is
making sure that the whole package is commiserate with the
(20:28):
league's growth.
Speaker 7 (20:29):
Right.
Speaker 5 (20:30):
What's happened previously is that the revenue share was ideally
supposed to be a way in which they could share
in that growth. What has occurred, however, is that there
are so many things that make up how revenue share
is done right. So, for example, they have to get
to a certain target before they'll even consider sharing in revenue,
(20:53):
so let's start there. The second thing is that there
are a significant fixed costs, So there's about thirty percent
that has.
Speaker 7 (21:00):
To be taken off the top that's paid out.
Speaker 5 (21:03):
To the NBA and others before again revenue can be shared,
and then they can share in fifty percent of the revenue,
but only twenty five percent of that actually goes to
the individual player. The other twenty five percent actually goes
into the marketing deal that goes to select players that
are then compensated for that. So it is not revenue
(21:24):
share the way in which you know. You would certainly
look at it as like you make a dollar, we're
splitting it. You get fifty cents, I get fifty cents.
That's not how it's done. However, it was absolutely a
step in the right direction, and quite honestly, I don't
even think we would be here having this discussion now
if it hadn't been in twenty twenty. But what I
(21:45):
will say is, if you are a player and you're
looking at the tremendous growth that we've already talked about
on media, on you know, the fact that teams are
being valued at so much more, you're wondering, well, then
why aren't.
Speaker 7 (21:58):
Our salaries in singing significantly? Right?
Speaker 5 (22:02):
So I will just say I think there has to
be some creativity in determining how to do the CBA. So,
for example, if we know that the average compensation for
a woman playing in the WNBA is let's say one
hundred and thirty thousand dollars, and we know that the
average compensation for an NBA player is.
Speaker 7 (22:21):
About eleven million dollars.
Speaker 5 (22:23):
Now, the women are not saying, pay me the same
as what you're paying them. But if you were to
look at the value of a team, and we've all
heard Steph Curry recently talk about the value of the team,
and you know how he's being compensated, et cetera. Even
if you just took the value of an NBA team
versus the value of a w team at the two
hundred and fifty million versus the billions, their salary would
(22:46):
still be closer to two hundred and fifty thousand to
five hundred thousand dollars, not sixty six to forty four.
Speaker 7 (22:53):
They'reabout right.
Speaker 5 (22:54):
So not things not working again, I don't know all
of the specifics, but yeah, just a reasonable person, Yeah,
and our players are reasonable people could.
Speaker 7 (23:05):
Sit here and say that just doesn't feel right to.
Speaker 4 (23:08):
The math a math in you can't.
Speaker 3 (23:11):
Yeah, the mathe math the mathe methin.
Speaker 2 (23:13):
And what's crazy about that is that when you look
at valuations of w NBA teams now, they have significantly
increased over the last couple of years. You look at
Mark Davis, he bought that team for what was it,
a couple of million dollars? Now the Aces are worth
like five hundred million dollars. You look at Joe and
Clara Woosi the Liberty, I'm worth like two hundred plus
million dollars. Like it is crazy when it comes to valuation.
(23:37):
But my follow up, though, is do you see parallels
as it relates to negotiation from NBA to WNBA? And
by that I don't necessarily mean like the actual monetary value,
I mean the approach in negotiation, because.
Speaker 3 (23:53):
Here's why I ask.
Speaker 2 (23:54):
It feels like women have to negotiate more originally, more
creatively than it is when you're negotiating with for and
buy men. And so I'm curious to know if that
plays a role and if you see any parallels between
coming to the negotiation table as the NBA versus coming
(24:16):
to the negotiation table with the WNBA.
Speaker 5 (24:19):
Yeah, so it's a great question, and I do think
there are, you know, very much similarities.
Speaker 7 (24:26):
Right, it's women negotiating with women, so we.
Speaker 5 (24:29):
Aren't It isn't necessarily like they're being treated differently just
simply because they're women. Right, The reality is is that
they are to some extent. In the past, it hadn't
been as lucrative right as the w is now, and
so that was always something to sort of fall back on, like, oh,
not enough people are watching, you know, the viewership isn't
(24:51):
as high, the media deals aren't as high, and so
everybody could kind of get around that. And I would
always say to people, well, you need to buy tickets, right,
you need to have butts in sea, right. So now
people are doing that, and so now it is leveling
the playing field and so they can start to have
some substantive discussions and negotiations. I don't think that they're
(25:11):
treating them any differently because they're women versus men. I
think what you're seeing is the distinction between the league
and a player, and there is you know, that has
been tested time and time again, and I think we
are still seeing that. And the fact that we hear
our players saying, you know, the valuation of teams of
skyrocket and and you know, their compensation isn't growing at
(25:33):
the same amount.
Speaker 7 (25:33):
And I think that's where he said, Wow.
Speaker 5 (25:36):
You know, people are like, well, you're making a lot
of money whatever that means, right, and making again versus
having because that's a whole other discussion we could have
for a different podcast. It is, but the reality is
is that they want to be paid what they're worth.
And when you have people out there willing to pay
a lot in a media deal, and you have people
out there willing to pay a lot to buy a team,
(25:59):
that's saying you're worth a little more than the sixty
six thousand. There's only a hundred four players, right, and
so why is it that this is such a small percentage?
And when you look at you know, things like Unrivaled
who Yeah, you know, as I understand, has been profitable
and the players are making a couple hundred thousand dollars,
you have to stop and ask yourself, why is it
(26:20):
that they could be successful? You know, as people are
talking about investing in women's teams, they're thinking I can
be better off going out and starting my.
Speaker 7 (26:28):
Own league one hundred percent buying into the NBA because
I can't pay them enough.
Speaker 5 (26:35):
You know, there's like all of these things that you
know as a person playing in the league that you
have to pause and stop and ask that question.
Speaker 1 (26:43):
Well, listen, you brought up unrival You're talking about players
making six figures in ten weeks, you know what I
mean versus some players.
Speaker 4 (26:55):
Making forty five fifty fifty five thousand dollars in three
four months.
Speaker 1 (27:01):
But Tamika, if you are advising the players, and I'm
going to use this moment as a former player to say,
there are things that we have been wanting and asking
for in CBA negotiations since I retire, and that is
former players healthcare and a pension that we don't have.
Speaker 4 (27:23):
What would you.
Speaker 1 (27:26):
Say to them are some of the non negotiables if
you are advising the players today.
Speaker 5 (27:34):
Yes, so, I think generational wealth is a non negotiable,
and having a pension in place is creating generational wealth,
and that should be a non negotiable.
Speaker 7 (27:47):
You should want to make.
Speaker 5 (27:48):
Sure that you're taken care of after the ball is
stop bouncing, right, and that should be a non negotiable.
I think being paid. You know, none of us, to
some extempt, are exactly paid.
Speaker 7 (28:01):
You know what we believe we are worth it. Let's
let's start there.
Speaker 5 (28:06):
However, you know, when I look at for example, you know,
one of the things that blows my mind is that
I think about, you know, marketing, for example, for a
player they actually have to have ten marketing appearances for free,
like based.
Speaker 7 (28:22):
On their salary, and then for every three promotional.
Speaker 5 (28:27):
Appearances after that, you'll paid another seven hundred and fifty dollars.
Speaker 7 (28:30):
So, for example, if you have.
Speaker 1 (28:32):
An eleven, we've been a seven fifty plate.
Speaker 5 (28:38):
You know, let me check that number, but it is
pretty low on the eleven, and then you're paid that
again on the you know, fourteenth, So then you go
three more times and you aren't paid. So I would
not do things that you're not paid for. If you
show up, you should be paid.
Speaker 7 (28:55):
That to me is a non negotiable.
Speaker 5 (28:57):
Like if I'm showing up and I'm doing things on
my time, you know that are above and beyond because
everybody isn't necessarily having to show up for ten times, right, yeah,
that you should be compensated.
Speaker 7 (29:10):
So to me, that should be a non negotiable.
Speaker 5 (29:12):
Travel, we have got to increase travel, you know, the experience,
the travel experience. This isn't about giving someone a benefit.
This is about well being. We want you to perform
at your absolute best, and we know that you can
perform at your absolute best if you are traveling appropriately,
that you have plenty of leg room.
Speaker 7 (29:34):
That you know, all of the things that you.
Speaker 5 (29:36):
Would just expect from a professional, right, So those would
be non negotiable, and obviously a salary that is commiserate
with someone who has had four years of education and
is now out playing in a league, that's that those
are non negotiables. There are probably others too, but you
know the ones that sort of strike me.
Speaker 2 (29:56):
Yeah, yeah, and I know that a conversation that we've
probably won't be able to get into, but it's something
that I'm sure the players are going to be talking about.
Will be scheduling, because as we're adding more teams, we
are absolutely meaning that we need to add more games.
Adding more games means a possibility of a longer season
because this condensed season has you playing on more back
(30:18):
to backs, as you playing with less time in between games.
There's a lot to fit forty four games. So to
your point about travel, there's that. So there's got to
be talking about scheduling and also the prioritization as it
relates to players who do play overseas, because again, another
conversation that we can have for another day is why
does it feel like women's basketball is valued so highly
(30:41):
in other countries and not here in the United States,
where we say that we have the best players in
the world, where we claim that we have the best
league in the world. If we truly have the best
in the world, which I believe we do, we do
them gold.
Speaker 3 (30:55):
Medals is showing that we do right.
Speaker 2 (30:59):
If we have that which we do have, then the
money should match what the world is willing to spend
for our players. But neither here nor there, with all
that being said, because we know that we don't have
a lot of time left. But with all that being said,
do you think that there are any lessons to be
(31:19):
learned maybe from past negotiations or from past experiences that
maybe you could, you know, see directly transferable into what
the w n b A is doing right now as
it comes to you know, forcing them to understand, you know,
our the players of strength, the players is leveraged. Like,
are there some lessons that you think can be learned
(31:41):
from maybe past experiences that can help the players moving forward.
Speaker 5 (31:45):
Yeah, So I think the biggest lesson here is sinking
outside of the box. I think if we are looking
at this as simply a raise, you know, increase in
comp we're you know, going to fall short every single time.
Speaker 7 (31:59):
I think that we have to reimagine what can be done.
Speaker 5 (32:02):
It is absolutely very difficult to be able to correlate
directly with what someone pays for a team with someone's salary,
like a direct correlation.
Speaker 7 (32:10):
However, what are other things that we could look at.
Speaker 5 (32:13):
We could look at ticket sales, we could look at merchandise,
and rather than splitting those fifty percent, they will split
that seventy five percent because they're being incentivized to get
more people there, to sell more merchandise, you know, things
like that.
Speaker 7 (32:25):
It just means that they've got to think outside of
the box. But that also means that you.
Speaker 5 (32:29):
Have to have willing parties that are entering into a partnership,
not where you're thinking about how can one win and
you know, sort of take off and run versus you know,
how can we both win? How can all boats rise?
I think that's really where the win is and right now,
as they continue to think transactional and not transformational, it
(32:52):
will not be a success. And they have incredible leaders
certainly on both sides. I mean, Neka is doing an
amazing job. This is her third time, if not more,
of coming up against the CBA, so she's really prepared
the p and Terry Jackson, they're prepared for this and
they're not going to stand down and they are not
going to settle. And I think that's partly you know,
(33:14):
that has to be the point.
Speaker 7 (33:15):
You don't settle. Yeah, I think that they will turn out.
It will be fine. I do.
Speaker 5 (33:20):
I pray and hope that it will be fine. But
it's just reasonable parties and a reasonable partnership.
Speaker 3 (33:26):
Agreed.
Speaker 1 (33:27):
Yeah, I mean, this is a conversation that we could
have forever because there's just so First of all, you're
a wealth of knowledge. You've been miss forever. There's like
I would really love to pick your brain. But I
don't really have anything else to add right now, but
I do want to just say thank you for your time,
(33:48):
thank you for your insight, and thank you for sharing.
Speaker 3 (33:54):
Yes, thank you for being you.
Speaker 7 (33:57):
Oh, thank you so much.
Speaker 2 (33:58):
Agree, And I'm gonna say just before we head out,
black women are awesome.
Speaker 3 (34:04):
Black women are awesome.
Speaker 4 (34:05):
We just we are.
Speaker 2 (34:07):
We just exist in awesomeness and I love that. So
thank you for your time and for joining us. And
you're a friend of the show now to me, because
so that means you got to come back.
Speaker 4 (34:18):
Oh, whenever anytime.
Speaker 7 (34:20):
For highlighting this. Thank you, Thank you for your voice
out here. We need it, so keep doing what you're doing.
Thank you so much, You're welcome.
Speaker 8 (34:28):
Thank you for.
Speaker 2 (34:44):
You know. One thing that I loved about Tamika and
what she was conveying was the fact that of everything
that has been said and of everything that had been
talked about, the players ultimately still are the ones that
have the leverage, right, And I feel like coming up
on whatever it is that we're coming up on, the
(35:07):
fact that they have that leverage and are willing to
utilize that leverage is going to be everything that maybe
players and you, being a player of the past, can
let me know if it is just that thing that
really separates this time from other times, because it feels
like there's like this time is the time where the
leverage is at an all time high for the players,
(35:27):
and I love that for them.
Speaker 1 (35:29):
Yeah, my thing is And as a former player, I
can't think of a better time than where we are
now for the players to put their foot down and say, here,
here's what we're asking for, here are our non negotiables,
(35:51):
and they got to be willing to stand behind that, right.
Speaker 8 (35:55):
I can't remember when we talked about this with Tamika.
Speaker 1 (35:57):
I can remember way back in the day when you know,
we were going through some CBA negotiations as well, nowhere
near what they're going through today.
Speaker 8 (36:07):
But the difference then was all of us weren't together
on the same page, right. There were some of us
who were like, no, we're going to do this for
the group and we're fighting for the group, and others
were like, listen, I gotta get mine and granted, even
though there are probably some players who feel that way,
(36:28):
for the most part, you can see and feel how
they're all together.
Speaker 1 (36:33):
They're all on the same page, and you know, kudos
to them for standing up and saying, just pay us
what we deserve, what we've.
Speaker 3 (36:40):
Earned, yeap one.
Speaker 2 (36:42):
So we will definitely keep our eyes peeled on what that.
Speaker 3 (36:48):
Is going to look like.
Speaker 2 (36:50):
You know, we kind of talked about how we don't
really expect much movement to happen until we get closer
to next season, so it is going to be a
long process. So everybody out there listening under staying that
it is going to be a long process. I mean,
there's not gonna happen overnight, so don't expect it to
you know, anything to change in the next week or two. Like,
(37:13):
it's gonna be a process, but we will keep our
eyes peeled on that for sure. And so with that, Cheryl,
what you got for us today.
Speaker 4 (37:22):
So I don't even know how.
Speaker 8 (37:24):
This popped up on my phone, but it popped up
on my phone.
Speaker 4 (37:27):
As the quote of the day.
Speaker 1 (37:30):
And I've read it and was like, oh, I like
this short, sweet and simple and it comes from the
great Sydney Poitier.
Speaker 8 (37:42):
How about that me too? And he says, yes, rest
in peace.
Speaker 1 (37:47):
It says you don't have to become something you're not
to be better than you were.
Speaker 3 (37:55):
Mmm.
Speaker 1 (37:58):
I've really yes, I really like that. Yes, let me
just repeat it for those who may not have gotten it.
You don't have to become something you're not to be
better than you were.
Speaker 7 (38:17):
I got that.
Speaker 3 (38:18):
I love that one hundred percent. Love that. It's so accurate,
it's so true. Growth.
Speaker 2 (38:24):
Growth is a beautiful thing, like we are all growing
every single day. It's a beautiful thing. I know I'll
be growing every day day. My Twitter fingers be like
this question.
Speaker 4 (38:35):
You've been so good this year, by the way, you
see what I'm saying.
Speaker 3 (38:38):
I'm telling you.
Speaker 2 (38:39):
I told y'all in the beginning of the year, I
won't go let none stress me out. This is the
year of celebration, y'all. We are about to get up
on out air man. We so appreciate you guys for
joining us and listening to Levels to This. We will
be back next week with more next level conversations just
about everything and all the shit that we go through
and talk about. But remember, this is our show, so
(38:59):
we want to hear from you.
Speaker 3 (39:01):
Leave us a review in Apple.
Speaker 2 (39:02):
Podcasts, email us at Levels too this podcast at gmail
dot com, tell us what you thought about this week's show,
what you might want to talk about next.
Speaker 3 (39:09):
Remember we put out a call that if.
Speaker 2 (39:11):
You want to hear a specific topic, definitely hit us
up and let us know.
Speaker 3 (39:15):
Follow us on Instagram at.
Speaker 2 (39:17):
Lttpod But until then, keep your mentals ground level and
we will be back next week.
Speaker 1 (39:22):
Than listen to Levels to This on America's number one
podcast network, iHeart. Open your free iHeart app and search
Levels to This with Cheryl Swoops and Tarika Foster Brasbee
and start listening
Levels to This is an iHeart women's sports production in
partnership with Deep Blue Sports and Entertainment. You can find
us on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you
get your podcasts.
Speaker 2 (00:16):
Hey, everybody, what's up. It's your girl Trica Pasta Brasby.
Speaker 3 (00:19):
You know, I gotta give.
Speaker 4 (00:20):
It to you what it do? This is your girl
Cheryl Swoops.
Speaker 3 (00:25):
What's up, y'all? Hey, what's going on? Y'all?
Speaker 2 (00:31):
And welcome to another episode of Levels to This. This
is the podcast where we always keep it real and
we talk about the shit that women go through. And
we're gonna be talking about a lot of shit that
women are going through on this podcast today, specifically the
women in the WNBA and how they need to get
they coins. But before we go there, we gotta catch
(00:54):
up Suro like what's going what's going on with you?
Says like, how was you went to Alaska this past week?
Speaker 5 (01:00):
Did?
Speaker 1 (01:01):
Oh my gosh, I did? First time ever? You know,
it's so crazy, don't y'all.
Speaker 4 (01:08):
Don't judge me. Don't laugh at me. You can laugh
at me. I don't care, but don't judge me. I was,
I know, I never I've never been to Alaska.
Speaker 1 (01:16):
And even though I know that Alaska is a part
of the United States, I asked my husband.
Speaker 4 (01:24):
I said, baby, do I need a passport to go
to Alaska?
Speaker 3 (01:28):
Ma'am?
Speaker 4 (01:28):
He was way, wait, wait, he was like. He didn't
say ma'am.
Speaker 1 (01:32):
He just ignored me, and I was like hello, And
then he looked at me he said, did you really
ask me that? Like I think I knew the answer.
But here's here's why I asked that. One I've never been,
but two, like it was at almost an all day
travel Will you get there?
Speaker 4 (01:54):
You know what I mean?
Speaker 1 (01:55):
So I was like, yeah, am I going to another
country or anyway?
Speaker 4 (02:00):
Y'all can laugh in judgment.
Speaker 2 (02:01):
I was just gonna say, you do have to go
over another country to get to Alaska?
Speaker 4 (02:06):
Facts? Facts?
Speaker 1 (02:08):
But I was in Wrangel, Alaska, population of two thousand people.
But te, I gotta tell you, like it was a
work trip, but it was also a mini vaca for me.
I got to do a camp with Jordan, but I
just I had some me time. My view was like
right on the water, it was so beautiful, the people
(02:30):
were amazing. It was a great time. I will say this,
I will absolutely go back. I loved my time there
in Alaska was the weather was beautiful.
Speaker 4 (02:44):
It was a great trip.
Speaker 2 (02:46):
That's awesome. I'm excited about that for you.
Speaker 1 (02:50):
I mean I didn't go on a cruise though. I mean, listen, okay,
my cruise was everything.
Speaker 3 (02:58):
I needed.
Speaker 4 (02:59):
That crew I need, we crews. We know.
Speaker 3 (03:02):
I came back.
Speaker 2 (03:04):
I came back so refreshed. But I've been trying to
go to Alaska for years. I used to watch the
show called Ain't No used to I still watch the
show called Life Below Zero.
Speaker 3 (03:15):
I started watching it during the pandemic.
Speaker 2 (03:17):
Yes, and all these people live a subsistence lifestyle and
they hunt and gather their own food, and they make
their own things, and they basically live in a wilderness.
Speaker 3 (03:26):
And I'm like, I won't be able to.
Speaker 2 (03:28):
Do it, like I can't survive, but I would love
to see how y'all do it? Like I want to
go to Alaska now and so and Liah's cat. Yes, yeah, yes,
that was like my husband's favorite show dead lis Ca.
Speaker 3 (03:43):
See what I'm saying.
Speaker 2 (03:44):
Yeah, Life below zero is my is my joint, Like
I love, I am so obsessed with Alaska. So we
gotta have another episode where we can get like more
into death into sure doing and all that good stuff,
no doubt, but this week for me, I actually he
went to Monday Night Raw. I went to a wrestling
live event, and I was very sad when I left,
(04:08):
even though it was a great time. I was sad
because my favorite wrestler did not appear. There was no
Jay Uso, and I was like that, yet I got on. Yes,
I did not get to YEAT. I did not get to.
Speaker 6 (04:23):
Yeats, and I am in my feelings about not getting
to Yeat. I was supposed to be thousands of other fans. Okay,
I have my jusot on, I have my glasses.
Speaker 2 (04:38):
I was ready, do you hear me? I was practicing.
I was ready, and he never He never showed up.
Speaker 4 (04:48):
No, I know was he supposed to be there?
Speaker 2 (04:52):
Well, Monday Night Raw is like typically his show because
superstars are either going to be on Raw or they're
going to be on SmackDown on Friday.
Speaker 3 (05:00):
So I know Raw is his show.
Speaker 2 (05:02):
And he had just performed at SummerSlam in New York
this past weekend, So I was like, okay, you in
well not you know, New York, New Jersey, met life,
you met life.
Speaker 3 (05:11):
The Barclay's like that ain't shit, so he should be there.
Speaker 2 (05:15):
And then other wrestlers came out whom he usually associates with,
So I was like, Bay, it's coming. I'm gonna wait
for this music to drop. And it never dropped. And
then the next day I saw on the Titan trom
was the big ass screen. I was like, thank you
for coming to Monday Night, Raw, We hope you had
a great time.
Speaker 3 (05:33):
And I was like, wait, so.
Speaker 1 (05:36):
Even though he didn't show up, did you have a
good time or no, I had a fantastic time.
Speaker 2 (05:43):
I will be going back on September fifteenth. On September fifteenth,
they will be in Springfield, Massachusetts at the mass Mutual Center,
which is thirty minutes away from my house. So I
don't have to drive two and a half hours how
to get to the show. It's thirty minutes. So I'm
I'm already in there. I'm already in there. Yeah, take
my money, take my money.
Speaker 4 (06:04):
Wwe I hate that for you.
Speaker 3 (06:08):
I did it really It really upset me.
Speaker 2 (06:10):
But you know what, though, you know what else upsets
me when Petail don't get paid. And that's what we're
talking about today, people who are not getting paid and
by people we mean the women of the WNBA. And
so we have an incredible guest who is going to
be joining us today to help us talk more about
what needs to happen to ensure that these women can
(06:31):
get what they rightfully deserve. And with that, yes, so
let's just go ahead and take this thing to the
next level. So we always say that we're super excited
(06:56):
to have a guest on the show, and I'm never
lying when I say this, Like I truly mean that
we are excited to have our guests.
Speaker 3 (07:04):
On the show.
Speaker 2 (07:04):
And so today we are incredibly excited because we are
joined by the one and only Tamika Tremalio. Okay, she
is the former executive director of the MVPA.
Speaker 3 (07:15):
She literally led the charge on.
Speaker 2 (07:16):
One of the most impactful CBA in NBA history, twenty
twenty three NBA Collective Barneying Agreement, where she's secured more
than two hundred and fifty million dollars in annual salary
and benefits increase for the players. She is about her coins, Okay,
Because she's about her coins.
Speaker 3 (07:33):
I love that.
Speaker 2 (07:34):
But some people may not realize that she also played
a role in the twenty twenty WNBA negotiations and now
she's leading the global sports consulting at the Secretariat, and
so I am excited to welcome Tamika to the show.
So Tamika, welcome and thank you for being with us.
Speaker 7 (07:49):
Oh, thank you so much. It's a pleasure to be here.
Speaker 1 (07:52):
No, no, no, no, youka know each other well, Tamika
ain't just about the coins.
Speaker 4 (07:57):
Tamika is about buddy back.
Speaker 3 (08:00):
She's about the bag.
Speaker 4 (08:02):
Yeah, for.
Speaker 1 (08:05):
Herself, for the players, like all the things. And I
am just so excited to be having this conversation having
her on the show because Tamika, it's so many things
out there, so many I'll say it, ignorant people out
(08:26):
there that are like, oh, they don't need any more money.
Speaker 4 (08:31):
Just anyway.
Speaker 1 (08:32):
I just I'm so glad you're here because you can
shed a lot of knowledge on past negotiations and you know,
lots of questions.
Speaker 8 (08:41):
That we have that the people out there have.
Speaker 1 (08:44):
So again, looking gorgeous as beautiful as ever.
Speaker 4 (08:48):
Just thank you for joining us all.
Speaker 2 (08:52):
Yeah, So first and foremost, before we get into the
nitty gritty of the conversation, I know that you and
Cheryl have seen each other in a long time, so
y'all clearly know each other, have a past relationship. Can
you be the person to finally give me some.
Speaker 3 (09:10):
Dirt own show?
Speaker 5 (09:12):
I wish I could thank you telling you that. Every
time I see sha'all, I want to bow down. You know,
everybody wants some bowls down. I mean, get a Olympic
gold medalist. I mean, you could name Hall of Famer.
I mean, it's amazing to just be on the same
screen with her.
Speaker 7 (09:29):
So to me, that's all I can say.
Speaker 3 (09:31):
I can't find a single person.
Speaker 4 (09:34):
You're a hater.
Speaker 7 (09:35):
You're a hater.
Speaker 2 (09:39):
I have been trying to get some dirt own shehryl
for over a year now, and nobody will spill it.
Speaker 4 (09:45):
So to me, I keep telling her she's she's talking to.
Speaker 1 (09:49):
The wrong people. You talking to the wrong people. And
I ain't giving you that list. I'm not giving you
that other list.
Speaker 3 (09:57):
You just wait, you just wait.
Speaker 2 (09:59):
I'm gonna come across it is who got that dirt
But anyway, Tamika, you've been in this business and in
this industry for what over thirty years now? Were you
surprised that the WNBA players opted out of their CBA
when they did and why they did it?
Speaker 5 (10:16):
I was not surprised. In fact, I think it was
quite expected, particularly in light of how well the WNBA
is doing.
Speaker 7 (10:25):
I absolutely expected that they would do.
Speaker 1 (10:27):
So I'm going to start with the most recent conversation
that you know, is all over social media, and that
is from the All Star Game with the players wearing
the T shirt pay us what you owe us? When
you saw that, what was the first thing that kind
of popped in your mind?
Speaker 5 (10:45):
To Maka, Well, I will say that too, was not
surprising because the women have always been local around equity,
and when they talk about equity, they don't mean.
Speaker 7 (10:58):
You know, simply what you pay us, right, but you
know to the point that you.
Speaker 5 (11:02):
Started with today, but the whole bag, right, yeah, because
that's really what it's all about.
Speaker 7 (11:07):
So I was not an all surprise.
Speaker 5 (11:09):
There have been lots of conversations about you know, the
two point two billion dollar media deal, the you know,
two hundred and fifty million dollar team that was just purchased,
the fact that viewership has gone up one hundred and
forty percent, So it is no surprise that our women
would stand out there.
Speaker 7 (11:26):
And say pay us what you owe us. That was
not at all surprise.
Speaker 5 (11:29):
They did it in the bubble doing it on their behalf,
which was also good to see that it was standing
up for themselves as well.
Speaker 3 (11:35):
I'm so glad you mentioned that doing it in the bubble.
Speaker 2 (11:38):
Because I feel like people had forgotten like what this
league truly is and who this league truly is, Like
we see things like Pride Night, for example, Nobody was
doing that before the WNBA started doing it. You know,
they had limited television time and they took their time
and said, we don't care, We're still not going to
play this game.
Speaker 3 (11:57):
Because of what happened.
Speaker 2 (11:59):
And with Wisconsin in Milwaukee, they said, you know, we
got someone in ownership who doesn't represent us. Let's go
ahead and flip this Senate and get this person out
of here. So for me, it's like, how could you
expect anything less from a league and from a group
of people who have consistently shown you that they are
about their business and they will go as far as
(12:21):
it means to go to get whatever business it is done.
Speaker 3 (12:24):
They don't play that and I love that.
Speaker 2 (12:27):
But one thing, as Cheryl mentions All Star Game that
stood out to me was the conversations that came so
during All Star for those listening who may not know
or have heard. There was an opportunity for players to
sit down with the commissioner and have a conversation with
the league to kind of kick off the negotiation from
(12:47):
a face to face perspective. And coming from that conversation,
a lot of the players were saying that the first
proposal from the league was like a slap in the
face and just you know, they didn't seem like they
were on the same page. And so, given your expertise
with this, is this what you would say common or
natural that the first proposal would be very undesirable or
(13:10):
do you think that maybe there is some additional level
or layer of disrespect that the players are warranted and saying,
you know, I'm bs off that y'all would come at
us like this.
Speaker 5 (13:19):
Yeah, so really excellent points to rica. I think a
couple of things. One is, negotiation is precisely that, right.
It is a lot of give and take. The first
offer is typically never the best offer to you know,
equate it with being disrespectful to some extent as personal. Right,
and you are dealing with very sophisticated business women and
(13:42):
this is not personal, but they want to be paid
what they're owned, right, And you're also dealing with a
level of an athlete and professional woman who has been
paid for nil. Now, so very different than what we
experienced in twenty twenty, right when they weren't necessarily all
than being paid for a brand before they entered the league.
(14:02):
Now they know their worth and so as they're coming
to the table, they know their worth and they're expecting
to receive it. So I don't think it was a
matter of disrespect. I think it was more a matter
of maybe underestimating the power of the women within the w.
Speaker 4 (14:19):
Well tee, I'm going to add on to that.
Speaker 1 (14:21):
I totally agree with that, But as a former player,
I will tell you there is a part of a
player that's like, oh, like, how.
Speaker 4 (14:30):
You gonna come at us and disrespect us like that?
Speaker 7 (14:33):
Right?
Speaker 1 (14:33):
And Asia Wilson sat and did an interview the other
day and she.
Speaker 4 (14:39):
Said something about, you know, like.
Speaker 8 (14:43):
Get give us, give us what we deserve.
Speaker 1 (14:46):
And then she was like, no, it's not even that,
like give us what we've earned, right, Like, we've earned this.
We're not asking you to just give us something that
we don't deserve, something that we don't earn.
Speaker 4 (14:58):
Give us what we've earned, and.
Speaker 1 (15:00):
Tamika, I want to get your thoughts on a couple
of things. So, way back in the day when the
league first started, we kind of sort of went through
a CBA negotiation, nothing like it is today, right, But
to me, one of the biggest differences is back then
(15:21):
you only had a handful of players that were making
enough money right to make a living, even though we
deserve more. But what I love about what's happening now
is you have the collective. You have all of these women,
regardless of where they are on the pay scale.
Speaker 8 (15:40):
They're all like, no, we are all in this together.
Speaker 1 (15:43):
So either we're going to get what we're oled, what
we deserve, or we won't play. How serious do you
think the ladies are about sitting out?
Speaker 5 (15:59):
You know, I think they are very serious. I do
not think anyone's bluffing here. However, what I will say
is that it is clear that it is part of
the negotiation that we're kind of getting here to less
than four months and having to come up with a conclusion.
People tend to sort of do things when they're pressed
up against the wall to get things done, which I
(16:21):
do not think that this is at all a game, right,
It would not behoove anyone, quite honestly, for there to
be a lockout.
Speaker 7 (16:29):
They have such.
Speaker 5 (16:29):
Incredible momentum right now that no one wants to see
them stop playing, right But at the same time, I
think that they are very serious about wanting to make
sure that they are compensated in a way that's at
least commiserate to the success that the league is actually
now created and is actually obtaining.
Speaker 1 (16:49):
In saying that, right that, you think they're very serious
if there is a lockout, if they say we're not playing,
how much do you think that could potentially hurt where
we are right now with the W and the momentum
and you know, the attendance and the viewership and all
(17:10):
the things.
Speaker 5 (17:13):
Yeah, so you know, the truth is, I don't know
exactly what that would do, but I will tell you
that it would not be positive. I think for a
number of reasons. One, because there's so much momentum around it,
right and so everybody's watching. People are very into you know,
the W they're into the players, et cetera. So I
think that will be challenging. I also think the fact
(17:34):
that we've added new teams that are expected to start
in the next season, like how does that impact the
teams that are supposed to be coming on in the
next season. We have a brand new media deal. How
is that media deal going to be impacted? So, you know,
sort of there are many dominoes that will fall as
a result of you know, sort of not ending by
October thirty first, But the dominoes will fall on both sides.
Speaker 7 (17:57):
And at this point, who has more to lose? Right?
Speaker 5 (18:01):
You know, if you were playing a minimum player at
sixty six thousand dollars, you know, that may not seem.
Speaker 7 (18:07):
Like that much to hold out for. You know, why
should you just settle on our Chober thirty first.
Speaker 5 (18:12):
So they're being very intentional about the decisions that they're making,
but it is it is not to anyone's benefit to
actually lock out.
Speaker 2 (18:22):
Yeah, I would agree with that mindframe, But I've said
multiple times as well that I don't think they want
to do it, but I think they're willing to do
it if that is what it means to get what
they feel that they earned and that they deserve. But
I also don't see that being a conversation that would
be had until well into next year because that's usually
like a last resort.
Speaker 3 (18:43):
But with that, I am curious to know.
Speaker 2 (18:46):
You know, you've had to do this on the NBA
side too, right, And I started this by talking about
how you were someone that was offering or advising for
the twenty twenty deal, which at the time everyone talked
about what a groundbreaking CBA it was in twenty two Now,
we didn't know that a pandemic was getting ready to
happen immediately, but there were so many things that we
(19:09):
talked about at that time about the CBA, you know,
the healthcare and the parental arrangements that were made, and
the mental health aspect that was added on, and you know, like,
given where the world has evolved in twenty twenty five
versus twenty twenty, if it were you sitting at the
negotiating table, if it were you that were leading the
(19:30):
charge for this, what do you think would be maybe
some of your priorities given the way that the league
and the world itself has evolved since twenty twenty.
Speaker 5 (19:42):
Yeah, so I think what First of all, I think
the twenty twenty CBA was groundbreaking for a number of reasons.
And yeah, you know, there are even other leagues and
other countries that have followed the direction of the w
so we see it for women's soccer, et cetera. So
it is every people are pausing right now to see
what will happen in these negotiations. What was really groundbreaking
(20:04):
about that is that this is the very first time
that they were able to share in the revenue, and
so you know, everyone was happy about the women sort
of being able to benefit from where the w would go. Right,
everybody sort of had some skin in the gain, if
you will. What I would focus on right now is
making sure that the whole package is commiserate with the
(20:28):
league's growth.
Speaker 7 (20:29):
Right.
Speaker 5 (20:30):
What's happened previously is that the revenue share was ideally
supposed to be a way in which they could share
in that growth. What has occurred, however, is that there
are so many things that make up how revenue share
is done right. So, for example, they have to get
to a certain target before they'll even consider sharing in revenue,
(20:53):
so let's start there. The second thing is that there
are a significant fixed costs, So there's about thirty percent
that has.
Speaker 7 (21:00):
To be taken off the top that's paid out.
Speaker 5 (21:03):
To the NBA and others before again revenue can be shared,
and then they can share in fifty percent of the revenue,
but only twenty five percent of that actually goes to
the individual player. The other twenty five percent actually goes
into the marketing deal that goes to select players that
are then compensated for that. So it is not revenue
(21:24):
share the way in which you know. You would certainly
look at it as like you make a dollar, we're
splitting it. You get fifty cents, I get fifty cents.
That's not how it's done. However, it was absolutely a
step in the right direction, and quite honestly, I don't
even think we would be here having this discussion now
if it hadn't been in twenty twenty. But what I
(21:45):
will say is, if you are a player and you're
looking at the tremendous growth that we've already talked about
on media, on you know, the fact that teams are
being valued at so much more, you're wondering, well, then
why aren't.
Speaker 7 (21:58):
Our salaries in singing significantly? Right?
Speaker 5 (22:02):
So I will just say I think there has to
be some creativity in determining how to do the CBA. So,
for example, if we know that the average compensation for
a woman playing in the WNBA is let's say one
hundred and thirty thousand dollars, and we know that the
average compensation for an NBA player is.
Speaker 7 (22:21):
About eleven million dollars.
Speaker 5 (22:23):
Now, the women are not saying, pay me the same
as what you're paying them. But if you were to
look at the value of a team, and we've all
heard Steph Curry recently talk about the value of the team,
and you know how he's being compensated, et cetera. Even
if you just took the value of an NBA team
versus the value of a w team at the two
hundred and fifty million versus the billions, their salary would
(22:46):
still be closer to two hundred and fifty thousand to
five hundred thousand dollars, not sixty six to forty four.
Speaker 7 (22:53):
They'reabout right.
Speaker 5 (22:54):
So not things not working again, I don't know all
of the specifics, but yeah, just a reasonable person, Yeah,
and our players are reasonable people could.
Speaker 7 (23:05):
Sit here and say that just doesn't feel right to.
Speaker 4 (23:08):
The math a math in you can't.
Speaker 3 (23:11):
Yeah, the mathe math the mathe methin.
Speaker 2 (23:13):
And what's crazy about that is that when you look
at valuations of w NBA teams now, they have significantly
increased over the last couple of years. You look at
Mark Davis, he bought that team for what was it,
a couple of million dollars? Now the Aces are worth
like five hundred million dollars. You look at Joe and
Clara Woosi the Liberty, I'm worth like two hundred plus
million dollars. Like it is crazy when it comes to valuation.
(23:37):
But my follow up, though, is do you see parallels
as it relates to negotiation from NBA to WNBA? And
by that I don't necessarily mean like the actual monetary value,
I mean the approach in negotiation, because.
Speaker 3 (23:53):
Here's why I ask.
Speaker 2 (23:54):
It feels like women have to negotiate more originally, more
creatively than it is when you're negotiating with for and
buy men. And so I'm curious to know if that
plays a role and if you see any parallels between
coming to the negotiation table as the NBA versus coming
(24:16):
to the negotiation table with the WNBA.
Speaker 5 (24:19):
Yeah, so it's a great question, and I do think
there are, you know, very much similarities.
Speaker 7 (24:26):
Right, it's women negotiating with women, so we.
Speaker 5 (24:29):
Aren't It isn't necessarily like they're being treated differently just
simply because they're women. Right, The reality is is that
they are to some extent. In the past, it hadn't
been as lucrative right as the w is now, and
so that was always something to sort of fall back on, like, oh,
not enough people are watching, you know, the viewership isn't
(24:51):
as high, the media deals aren't as high, and so
everybody could kind of get around that. And I would
always say to people, well, you need to buy tickets, right,
you need to have butts in sea, right. So now
people are doing that, and so now it is leveling
the playing field and so they can start to have
some substantive discussions and negotiations. I don't think that they're
(25:11):
treating them any differently because they're women versus men. I
think what you're seeing is the distinction between the league
and a player, and there is you know, that has
been tested time and time again, and I think we
are still seeing that. And the fact that we hear
our players saying, you know, the valuation of teams of
skyrocket and and you know, their compensation isn't growing at
(25:33):
the same amount.
Speaker 7 (25:33):
And I think that's where he said, Wow.
Speaker 5 (25:36):
You know, people are like, well, you're making a lot
of money whatever that means, right, and making again versus
having because that's a whole other discussion we could have
for a different podcast. It is, but the reality is
is that they want to be paid what they're worth.
And when you have people out there willing to pay
a lot in a media deal, and you have people
out there willing to pay a lot to buy a team,
(25:59):
that's saying you're worth a little more than the sixty
six thousand. There's only a hundred four players, right, and
so why is it that this is such a small percentage?
And when you look at you know, things like Unrivaled
who Yeah, you know, as I understand, has been profitable
and the players are making a couple hundred thousand dollars,
you have to stop and ask yourself, why is it
(26:20):
that they could be successful? You know, as people are
talking about investing in women's teams, they're thinking I can
be better off going out and starting my.
Speaker 7 (26:28):
Own league one hundred percent buying into the NBA because
I can't pay them enough.
Speaker 5 (26:35):
You know, there's like all of these things that you
know as a person playing in the league that you
have to pause and stop and ask that question.
Speaker 1 (26:43):
Well, listen, you brought up unrival You're talking about players
making six figures in ten weeks, you know what I
mean versus some players.
Speaker 4 (26:55):
Making forty five fifty fifty five thousand dollars in three
four months.
Speaker 1 (27:01):
But Tamika, if you are advising the players, and I'm
going to use this moment as a former player to say,
there are things that we have been wanting and asking
for in CBA negotiations since I retire, and that is
former players healthcare and a pension that we don't have.
Speaker 4 (27:23):
What would you.
Speaker 1 (27:26):
Say to them are some of the non negotiables if
you are advising the players today.
Speaker 5 (27:34):
Yes, so, I think generational wealth is a non negotiable,
and having a pension in place is creating generational wealth,
and that should be a non negotiable.
Speaker 7 (27:47):
You should want to make.
Speaker 5 (27:48):
Sure that you're taken care of after the ball is
stop bouncing, right, and that should be a non negotiable.
I think being paid. You know, none of us, to
some extempt, are exactly paid.
Speaker 7 (28:01):
You know what we believe we are worth it. Let's
let's start there.
Speaker 5 (28:06):
However, you know, when I look at for example, you know,
one of the things that blows my mind is that
I think about, you know, marketing, for example, for a
player they actually have to have ten marketing appearances for free,
like based.
Speaker 7 (28:22):
On their salary, and then for every three promotional.
Speaker 5 (28:27):
Appearances after that, you'll paid another seven hundred and fifty dollars.
Speaker 7 (28:30):
So, for example, if you have.
Speaker 1 (28:32):
An eleven, we've been a seven fifty plate.
Speaker 5 (28:38):
You know, let me check that number, but it is
pretty low on the eleven, and then you're paid that
again on the you know, fourteenth, So then you go
three more times and you aren't paid. So I would
not do things that you're not paid for. If you
show up, you should be paid.
Speaker 7 (28:55):
That to me is a non negotiable.
Speaker 5 (28:57):
Like if I'm showing up and I'm doing things on
my time, you know that are above and beyond because
everybody isn't necessarily having to show up for ten times, right, yeah,
that you should be compensated.
Speaker 7 (29:10):
So to me, that should be a non negotiable.
Speaker 5 (29:12):
Travel, we have got to increase travel, you know, the experience,
the travel experience. This isn't about giving someone a benefit.
This is about well being. We want you to perform
at your absolute best, and we know that you can
perform at your absolute best if you are traveling appropriately,
that you have plenty of leg room.
Speaker 7 (29:34):
That you know, all of the things that you.
Speaker 5 (29:36):
Would just expect from a professional, right, So those would
be non negotiable, and obviously a salary that is commiserate
with someone who has had four years of education and
is now out playing in a league, that's that those
are non negotiables. There are probably others too, but you
know the ones that sort of strike me.
Speaker 2 (29:56):
Yeah, yeah, and I know that a conversation that we've
probably won't be able to get into, but it's something
that I'm sure the players are going to be talking about.
Will be scheduling, because as we're adding more teams, we
are absolutely meaning that we need to add more games.
Adding more games means a possibility of a longer season
because this condensed season has you playing on more back
(30:18):
to backs, as you playing with less time in between games.
There's a lot to fit forty four games. So to
your point about travel, there's that. So there's got to
be talking about scheduling and also the prioritization as it
relates to players who do play overseas, because again, another
conversation that we can have for another day is why
does it feel like women's basketball is valued so highly
(30:41):
in other countries and not here in the United States,
where we say that we have the best players in
the world, where we claim that we have the best
league in the world. If we truly have the best
in the world, which I believe we do, we do
them gold.
Speaker 3 (30:55):
Medals is showing that we do right.
Speaker 2 (30:59):
If we have that which we do have, then the
money should match what the world is willing to spend
for our players. But neither here nor there, with all
that being said, because we know that we don't have
a lot of time left. But with all that being said,
do you think that there are any lessons to be
(31:19):
learned maybe from past negotiations or from past experiences that
maybe you could, you know, see directly transferable into what
the w n b A is doing right now as
it comes to you know, forcing them to understand, you know,
our the players of strength, the players is leveraged. Like,
are there some lessons that you think can be learned
(31:41):
from maybe past experiences that can help the players moving forward.
Speaker 5 (31:45):
Yeah, So I think the biggest lesson here is sinking
outside of the box. I think if we are looking
at this as simply a raise, you know, increase in
comp we're you know, going to fall short every single time.
Speaker 7 (31:59):
I think that we have to reimagine what can be done.
Speaker 5 (32:02):
It is absolutely very difficult to be able to correlate
directly with what someone pays for a team with someone's salary,
like a direct correlation.
Speaker 7 (32:10):
However, what are other things that we could look at.
Speaker 5 (32:13):
We could look at ticket sales, we could look at merchandise,
and rather than splitting those fifty percent, they will split
that seventy five percent because they're being incentivized to get
more people there, to sell more merchandise, you know, things
like that.
Speaker 7 (32:25):
It just means that they've got to think outside of
the box. But that also means that you.
Speaker 5 (32:29):
Have to have willing parties that are entering into a partnership,
not where you're thinking about how can one win and
you know, sort of take off and run versus you know,
how can we both win? How can all boats rise?
I think that's really where the win is and right now,
as they continue to think transactional and not transformational, it
(32:52):
will not be a success. And they have incredible leaders
certainly on both sides. I mean, Neka is doing an
amazing job. This is her third time, if not more,
of coming up against the CBA, so she's really prepared
the p and Terry Jackson, they're prepared for this and
they're not going to stand down and they are not
going to settle. And I think that's partly you know,
(33:14):
that has to be the point.
Speaker 7 (33:15):
You don't settle. Yeah, I think that they will turn out.
It will be fine. I do.
Speaker 5 (33:20):
I pray and hope that it will be fine. But
it's just reasonable parties and a reasonable partnership.
Speaker 3 (33:26):
Agreed.
Speaker 1 (33:27):
Yeah, I mean, this is a conversation that we could
have forever because there's just so First of all, you're
a wealth of knowledge. You've been miss forever. There's like
I would really love to pick your brain. But I
don't really have anything else to add right now, but
I do want to just say thank you for your time,
(33:48):
thank you for your insight, and thank you for sharing.
Speaker 3 (33:54):
Yes, thank you for being you.
Speaker 7 (33:57):
Oh, thank you so much.
Speaker 2 (33:58):
Agree, And I'm gonna say just before we head out,
black women are awesome.
Speaker 3 (34:04):
Black women are awesome.
Speaker 4 (34:05):
We just we are.
Speaker 2 (34:07):
We just exist in awesomeness and I love that. So
thank you for your time and for joining us. And
you're a friend of the show now to me, because
so that means you got to come back.
Speaker 4 (34:18):
Oh, whenever anytime.
Speaker 7 (34:20):
For highlighting this. Thank you, Thank you for your voice
out here. We need it, so keep doing what you're doing.
Thank you so much, You're welcome.
Speaker 8 (34:28):
Thank you for.
Speaker 2 (34:44):
You know. One thing that I loved about Tamika and
what she was conveying was the fact that of everything
that has been said and of everything that had been
talked about, the players ultimately still are the ones that
have the leverage, right, And I feel like coming up
on whatever it is that we're coming up on, the
(35:07):
fact that they have that leverage and are willing to
utilize that leverage is going to be everything that maybe
players and you, being a player of the past, can
let me know if it is just that thing that
really separates this time from other times, because it feels
like there's like this time is the time where the
leverage is at an all time high for the players,
(35:27):
and I love that for them.
Speaker 1 (35:29):
Yeah, my thing is And as a former player, I
can't think of a better time than where we are
now for the players to put their foot down and say, here,
here's what we're asking for, here are our non negotiables,
(35:51):
and they got to be willing to stand behind that, right.
Speaker 8 (35:55):
I can't remember when we talked about this with Tamika.
Speaker 1 (35:57):
I can remember way back in the day when you know,
we were going through some CBA negotiations as well, nowhere
near what they're going through today.
Speaker 8 (36:07):
But the difference then was all of us weren't together
on the same page, right. There were some of us
who were like, no, we're going to do this for
the group and we're fighting for the group, and others
were like, listen, I gotta get mine and granted, even
though there are probably some players who feel that way,
(36:28):
for the most part, you can see and feel how
they're all together.
Speaker 1 (36:33):
They're all on the same page, and you know, kudos
to them for standing up and saying, just pay us
what we deserve, what we've.
Speaker 3 (36:40):
Earned, yeap one.
Speaker 2 (36:42):
So we will definitely keep our eyes peeled on what that.
Speaker 3 (36:48):
Is going to look like.
Speaker 2 (36:50):
You know, we kind of talked about how we don't
really expect much movement to happen until we get closer
to next season, so it is going to be a
long process. So everybody out there listening under staying that
it is going to be a long process. I mean,
there's not gonna happen overnight, so don't expect it to
you know, anything to change in the next week or two. Like,
(37:13):
it's gonna be a process, but we will keep our
eyes peeled on that for sure. And so with that, Cheryl,
what you got for us today.
Speaker 4 (37:22):
So I don't even know how.
Speaker 8 (37:24):
This popped up on my phone, but it popped up
on my phone.
Speaker 4 (37:27):
As the quote of the day.
Speaker 1 (37:30):
And I've read it and was like, oh, I like
this short, sweet and simple and it comes from the
great Sydney Poitier.
Speaker 8 (37:42):
How about that me too? And he says, yes, rest
in peace.
Speaker 1 (37:47):
It says you don't have to become something you're not
to be better than you were.
Speaker 3 (37:55):
Mmm.
Speaker 1 (37:58):
I've really yes, I really like that. Yes, let me
just repeat it for those who may not have gotten it.
You don't have to become something you're not to be
better than you were.
Speaker 7 (38:17):
I got that.
Speaker 3 (38:18):
I love that one hundred percent. Love that. It's so accurate,
it's so true. Growth.
Speaker 2 (38:24):
Growth is a beautiful thing, like we are all growing
every single day. It's a beautiful thing. I know I'll
be growing every day day. My Twitter fingers be like
this question.
Speaker 4 (38:35):
You've been so good this year, by the way, you
see what I'm saying.
Speaker 3 (38:38):
I'm telling you.
Speaker 2 (38:39):
I told y'all in the beginning of the year, I
won't go let none stress me out. This is the
year of celebration, y'all. We are about to get up
on out air man. We so appreciate you guys for
joining us and listening to Levels to This. We will
be back next week with more next level conversations just
about everything and all the shit that we go through
and talk about. But remember, this is our show, so
(38:59):
we want to hear from you.
Speaker 3 (39:01):
Leave us a review in Apple.
Speaker 2 (39:02):
Podcasts, email us at Levels too this podcast at gmail
dot com, tell us what you thought about this week's show,
what you might want to talk about next.
Speaker 3 (39:09):
Remember we put out a call that if.
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You want to hear a specific topic, definitely hit us
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Follow us on Instagram at.
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Lttpod But until then, keep your mentals ground level and
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Than listen to Levels to This on America's number one
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