August 29, 2019 • 50 mins
Chelsea is joined in studio by her friend, Alek Keshishian for a mindful discussion about ketamine Infusions, psychedelics and mental health.
Credits:
Host: Chelsea Handler
Guest: Alek Keshishian
Executive Producer: Conal Byrne
Producers: Sophie Lichterman, Jack O’Brien
Writers: Jamie Loftus, Anna Hossnieh & Sophie Lichterman
Consulting Producers: Nick Stumpf, Miles Gray, & Anna Hossnieh
This episode was Engineered, Mixed & Edited by: Danl Goodman
Music by: Kingsbury
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hi, I'm Chelsea Handler. Welcome to Life Will Be the
Death of Me, a production of I Heart Radio. We
are here today in studio again. I've enjoying my in
studio interviews with a very dear friend of mine, and
he has been recently taking ketamine. What's the proper ketamine infusions?
(00:21):
You've been taking them? You've been doing them? What's the
proper verbiage for that? I've been Um, I've been doing
ketamine infusions. Okay, So because of depression, and I know
a lot of people are interested. I certainly am after
reading Michael Pollan's book about psychedelics, about psilocybin, about all
the different kind of PTSD trauma that it helps either
(00:45):
kind of diminish or deteriorate or I don't know, so
whether it's acid, whether it's m D M A, whether
it's psilocybin or academine. This is kind of the new
wave of pichedelics and this kind of there's a new
acceptance happening of people and neuroscientists and psychiatrists and psychologists
(01:08):
using it to help patients. So I wanted to talk
to you about your experience, Alec, because I've known you
for how many How many years have we been engaged
A long time? Like? Is it ten years? Yeah? Probably
ten years? Okay? And Brandon, how long have I known you?
Three years? Okay? Three years? Okay, good to know. And
I'm forty four. Okay, So talk to me a little
(01:31):
bit about your research and why you decided to to
start kadamine infusions. Okay. Well, I've had depression, probably from
my mid twenties, so I've been on that the word
you hate journey. I'm trying to figure that out for
um a couple of decades now. And I've been on
antidepressants most of my life, I guess, all different kinds,
(01:55):
And while they definitely stabilize one's mood or my mood,
they didn't necessarily return me to a place that I
would characterize as what I remembered when I was not depressed.
And so when I started reading about ketamine and ketamine infusions,
(02:15):
the thing that intrigued me was the ketamine seems to
work on a completely different basis than any antidepressant. Most
antidepressants that are used today are called S S R I,
and so they have a specific mechanism in the brain ketamine, which, weirdly,
scientists don't, and doctors don't fully understand why exactly it's
(02:39):
having such a strong antidepressive effect. Nonetheless, they do know
that it works completely differently than s S. Al Right,
So I was just intrigued to see, could that, you know,
restore more joy into my life. So while I was stabilized,
I wanted to kind of see if I could turned
(03:00):
to a place where I was even happier. Okay, and
so you're still on your antidepressants and you do the
ketamine and fusion. Yes, I'm on antidepressants, and ketamine is
kind of an adjunct therapy for me. Ketamine has great
speed in its action, which is why I like it's
kind of revolutionary for people with suicidal tendencies because the
(03:24):
anti suicidal effect is almost mediate, whereas most antidepressants require
like anywhere from three to six weeks to building your system,
and even then you don't know whether an antidepressant, a
particular one is going to work for you or not,
but especially for patients who are suicidal, obviously that's too
(03:45):
long a period to wait. And so one of the
most groundbreaking things about ketemine was that it has an
immediate effect. So yeah, for me, though, ketamine. I wasn't
suicidal by any means. I was managing on my typepressants,
but I was intrigued and I want to see if
ketamine infusions could make me better. So around a year
(04:09):
and a half ago, I went down to La Hoya
and I did a series of around seven or eight
ketamine infusions. Because initially they kind of suggest that you
do a series of them with a few days apart
between each infusion, and then after that there really isn't
any clear cut guidance or guideline about how often you
(04:33):
need to do it from that point on or if
you need to do it, And I think it's an
individual thing. Like in my case, well, after the first
eight I waited like six months, I didn't feel the need,
and then I started doing like once every four weeks
or so. But there's nothing hard and fast about that.
(04:53):
So but what do those infusions look like? Is somebody
sitting there with you, like what are you taking? Because
remember I put you in touch with a front of
mine from high school who was also experimenting with ketamine infusion,
and she was kind of not taking the right cocktail. Yeah,
you're right, she wasn't taking the right cockati. Here's the
problem with ketamine infusions is that, by and large it's
(05:14):
like a little bit the Wild West in terms of
how doctors are giving it. Because it's a drug that
was created as an anesthetic and used in the Vietnam War,
and then ketamine then became used widely by vets, and
you know, obviously as a party drug sometimes. But once
(05:35):
it's therapeutic unit quality was discovered, the doctor's giving it
tended to be anesthesiologists and not necessarily psychiatrists. One of
the reasons I went to Lahoya was because I found
a psychiatrist who was giving ketamine um. When I returned
to Los Angeles. My first ketamine infusion in Los Angeles
(05:58):
was a horrible experience, as I went to an anesthesiologist
who basically stuck me in a dark room and told
me to lie on the exam table. It was completely
pitch black when he left the door closed, and I
had a horrible experience. So when I spoke to your friend,
she too had gone to one of these clinics that
(06:21):
we're giving ketamine infusions, but they had not only given
her ketamine, but they had mixed it for no good
reason with propofol and not Michael Jackson, trash and Michael Jackson.
It's like another anesthetic which has no help for depressive purposes.
But I imagine they gave it to knock her out
(06:45):
so that she wouldn't require any supervision while she had
the ketamine. So it's a tricky thing. You have to
make sure that you find someplace where there is going
to be either a doctor or nurse practitioner with you
in that room while you have the infusion, and a
lot of places don't do that. And so when you
do sit down with in the right environment, you want
(07:07):
to sit down with somebody like are you setting an
intention for your experience? Are you going there to resolve
in a specific issue or just for your overall better
well being? I think you're going to get an overall benefit.
It's it's a little different than let's say, if you're
creating an intention for a psilocybin or LSD trip. Therapeutically,
(07:27):
that's discussed more. They don't really talk about ketamine intention.
That said, though, I have definitely found that before a
ketamine infusion, I can set not an intention so much
as like a subject I want to explore. In fact,
when I was in Lahoya. You and I were working
on a TV project and there are a couple of
(07:50):
infusions where before I did them, I was like, I
wish I could figure out what we're going to do
with that series. And during the courts of the ketamine trip,
as I call them, I did kind of go into
some you know, thought processes and came out with certain
insights and kind of breakthroughs. I think I called you
(08:10):
a lot of times, right you did, because and sometimes interestingly,
you come out of your ketamine infusion and you're like
very kind of off your It takes a moment to
adjust and like, for instance, this week, you said I'm
going to stay protect myself from the next twenty four
hours because I'm in this state where you kind of
have to digest what you've experienced. That's a really good point.
(08:32):
The thing with ketamine is sometimes you come out of
it and you feel really happy, and that happens i'd
say like seventy percent of the time. But there are
other times where after an infusion where you feel a
little more vulnerable. And one of my psychiatrists who does
(08:54):
ketamine infusion told me, because I hadn't one experience where
I did ketamine, and then I went out to dinner
with a group of people who were very anxious and
fear based and very negative. And the next morning I
woke up and my loote had plunged, And my psychiatrists
explained that you're kind of more open right after academie
(09:16):
confusion because your brain is actually creating new synapses. That's
what the beginning of research is showing that it's actually
kedemine over the course of forty eight hours begins to
create new synapses, and so during that period it's better
for you to be creating synapses on like happier pathways
(09:39):
than on anxious or pathways. So his suggestion, which I'm
trying to put into practice now, is yeah, for like
the first twenty four hours, or certainly for the first evening,
just staying in, you know, being kind of reflective, doing
things that Yeah, there you go. I don't think the
(10:00):
brings you anything that brings you an explosion of joy,
anything that brings you closer to yourself after the kintamine treatment.
Could being alone have an adverse effect on people? Though?
It like, if you are a depressive person or someone
who gets anxious, would it be better for you, or
for someone per se to be in a group of
(10:20):
happy people are doing something active that makes them happy.
I don't think there's a hard and fast rule, but
I would say that no, because right after ketamine, you're
not feeling particularly lonely, like you're in a pretty nice state.
It's more dangerous to subject yourself to anxiety or anything
(10:41):
or new. You want to go to your safe spot
for him, that means he goes home and it hangs
out by like I can call Chelsea. In fact, I do.
She's usually my first call after my ketamine because I'm usually,
like you know, very anxious to tell her what I experienced.
But there are certain incoming calls that I won't take anymore,
you know, right after actamine, and a lot of times
(11:03):
that has to do with work or right. But also,
I mean, I think all these drugs are interesting because
everybody has a different you know, like when you're talking
about micro docing, you know, I did mushrooms at my
house this weekend with a bunch of people recreationally. I
did chocolate mushrooms and they were really really mellow and
really mild and in that kind of environment. Now that
I know what I do about these hallucinogens. I try
(11:26):
to be really mindful instead of just taking drugs to
party and laugh my house off, I try and actually
really and enjoy the moment and really be present in
the moment. Now they're prescribing psilocybin, micro docing me for
research in a research state, prescribing, well, I'm prescribing it.
I have a surplus of it. And I can picture
you going at CPS and going high. I need my
(11:48):
psilocybin dose. Give it to me now. It's called Chelsea Handler. Okay,
we're gonna take a quick break and we'll be right back.
I was skiing. Where was I being, I don't know,
sun Valley, maybe this winter, and somebody said, oh, yeah,
I have a bunch of fun guy, and I went,
is that what we're calling it now? And she said, yeah,
it's micro dosing psilocybin. And so we all took some, obviously,
(12:11):
because anything that's available to me, I'll just eat. And
I noticed the tiniest kick up. I was just awake
a little bit more. I wasn't hallucinating by any means,
but everything was a little bit more sparkly, much the
same as it is if I were to take an
edible while I was skiing, you know, like a micro
dosed edible. But with that, you know a little bit
(12:31):
about that too, because there's like suggested cycles when you're
supposed to take that correct. Yeah, micro dosing is is
another kind of modality that is being heavily researched down
for depression, and that seems to work on a different
level than um ketamine and basically most psychedelics. What research
(12:55):
shows is that they camped down the brain default mode network,
and the brain default mode network, which is kind of
a prefrontal brain thing, is basically what kind of serves
as a traffic warden in your brain, and it kind
of stops certain connections and keeps you, if you want
to call it, kind of feeling sane. But it also
(13:17):
keeps you very much ego based, very much about your
own kind of history, like this is my past, is
my present, this is my future. So that's what the
brain default mode network does, and what they've realized is
psilocybin or LSD or any number of these things seems
to suppress that, and so suddenly you're making connections in
(13:41):
your brain that you don't usually make, and they've noticed
that that can have even more long term effects on
depression that's been shown with megadosis of psilocybin or LST,
where they're seeing like depression going away for if not
(14:01):
even years, by one megados one mechadz, I mean that
is like that is a retreat I could have at
my house for people. I mean, I would totally be illegal,
but okay, well then I'll change my address so you
could move to the Netherlands though where it is, I
don't think. I'm not thinking about moving to Brendon. Can
you please find me a house. I'm working with real
(14:22):
estate agents all over. Don't worry. Yes, ski season is coming,
so we have to get creative. She's trying to find
out drug watts in all different countries. In Spain. By
the way, in Spain, it's legal to do mushrooms, and
I have a house there, so I don't think that's
a coincidence. So micro dosing, though, is basically taking that
same philosophy and kind of saying, Okay, if you take
(14:42):
a micro dose over time, can that have the same effect?
And there isn't proof yet either way, but in both
these situations and one of the things you just said about,
like when you do chocolate mushrooms, the setting and the
scene is incredibly important, so again a little bit like ketamine,
(15:04):
Like it's really important who you do it with, whether
you feel safe, whether you like the space you're in,
all that stuff, and that has effects even in terms
of what your takeaway is from it. So um, I
think that's true for ketamine as well, which is why
I say, like, make sure that the place you're going
(15:24):
feels comfortable, like the room you're doing it in, that
you feel a connection, or you feel safe with the
nurse or the doctor doing you know, giving it to you.
Those things actually seem to affect the result. So micro
dosing is is basically just the mini psilocybin dose. But
I found when I attempted it that it corresponded very
(15:48):
much with what my state of mind was before I
did it. So if I was like a little anxious
that day, it would make me more anxious. If I
wasn't anxious, or I was feeling creative, it would make
me a little bit more creative. And I personally decided
I didn't want to I didn't want to go either
those ways. And that's when I took those mushrooms from
you and decided to use them for thank you for
(16:10):
making me your dealer. So that didn't work for you.
Now a couple of the other things because a lot
you know, like for instance, ayahuasca isn't a drug that
people who are taking an antidepressant are supposed to do.
Remember we looked into that for you when I was
going to do it, and anybody on an SSR one
s R I, well, here's the thing. I was just
(16:31):
having the numbers and letters confused. The thing about ayouasca
and psilocybin and LSD and antidepressants is that they all
work on the Saratonain kind of receptors. And most sites
and most practitioners will say, oh no, no, you shouldn't
do an s s R I and then do ayouasca
(16:54):
or psilocybin or l s D, and that's certainly kind
of the safe kind of sponsor. However, I've spoken to
like James Fadiman, who is kind of like the god
of all this. He's the original researcher. He really knows
his stuff here. And if you dig deeper, what you
find out is that psilocybin deals with a different subset
(17:18):
of your serotonin receptor than your antidepressant does so even
though most people would be like, no, no, you shouldn't
be on antidepressants and take psilocybin in actual fact, and
I'm not a doctor, so don't follow this advice. I'm
a doctor, so but I'm just saying in my research
and my conversations with people who seem to be real,
(17:40):
real experts, not just you know, an article about this,
they say, technically speaking, psilocybin you can take with an antidepressant,
but you'll need more of it to have the same effect.
But with ayuasca, you know, it's again the same thing.
Just to kind of bring down their liability to the
lowest level possible, they say, no, you should have weaned
(18:02):
yourself off depressants, And I don't disagree with that, like,
to be honest with you, like, that's the reason I
haven't taken ayuasca. But there's another reason why, which is
that you don't want to shoot your pants yea and
vomit in front of you. It sounds like a very
valid reason. I don't have to be there, I mean
I can, I will be filming it, obviously, but I
don't have to be in your phone, I mean, Instagram, television,
(18:26):
you know someone I know who's kind of a shaman.
I said, ayuask is like swimming the Atlantic Ocean, and
like people who do that before they've dipped their toe
and anything else. It's kind of major um, kind of
like a little hesitant. Yeah. No, it is a very
intense experience. But I did a lot of acid in
(18:48):
high school, so I was used to that. Did you
have you ever done acid? I think I've done acid
once in college. The last time I did psilocybin was,
you know, in my twenties. But you did try the
micro docing effect. I did micro doocing, yeah and stop.
And I'm not ruling out a psilocybin trip, but it
would need to be in a real therapeutic setting, like
(19:12):
I'd like to do it with like a therapist. And
that becomes a whole other hurdle because you have to
do this song and dance because it's not legal here.
There are places in the Netherlands though, where they will
do a proper therapeutic pilocybin. Yeah, you've only just what
taken in edible Brandon, Is that correct? Yeah, I've never
done anything like edelic and yeah, and I've seen you
(19:33):
on inedible and I would recommend as a doctor that
you don't take it any further. You tell me anytime
you're gonna take mushrooms at Brandon came out to you
on these, I don't what would be? What would you be?
I don't know. She seems to know that. I trust that.
I think he just gets so much out of an
edible there's no reason to go further, likely giggles. You know,
they are doing something new out of Colorado called psychedelic
(19:56):
cannabis trips, which is that they have certain specific hybrid
strains that they use, and they put headphones on a
little bit like what a therapeutic psilocybin or LSD trip
is supposed to do while they have a therapist there
and you have kind of a curated playlist or whatever,
and you do an integration before and after. But it's
(20:18):
called psychedelic cannabis therapy in Colorado. In Colorado, there are
a few practitioners here, so that's legal. We don't know
a lot about the m d M A micro do
sing right, do you know? I know very little about
But I do know that m d M A and
antidepressants definitely do not mix. That is where you can
(20:38):
get into trouble. Oh yeah, because m D m A
depletes your whole to serotonin, rushes serotonin into your brain
because that's like a way for days afterwards, your serotonin
level plunges. But the problem is the danger is during
the rush with your antidepressants, it can create something called
(20:58):
serotonin syndrome, which is basically an overdose of serotonin that's
life threatening. Okay, well that's good to know because for
regular people who aren't on antid de depressants, there's a
that day of the week. I think it's usually Tuesday
where you feel if you've taken an XSC on Saturday,
feeling great Sunday because it's still in your body, and
Monday you're like, WHOA, don't have a hangover, And then
(21:21):
Tuesday you want to kill yourself and I think they
call it to suicide Tuesday. We were just talking about
that the other night. So there is a definite depletion
and what you can do is take B twelve they say,
to just kind of balance that out. Um, but you
have to take it before, during, and after, so that
sometimes helps people. But BE twelve and fol Late can
help people with that because BE twelve and Foel late
(21:43):
are what your brain needs to create neurotransmitters like serotonin.
So taking a big dose to be twelve and folate
is definitely something I would do if I did that,
but I don't. I think a lot of people the
fear of that crash is what keeps them from doing
a things psychedelic because I know my freshman is offering
your college when all of my friends are out doing
(22:04):
ecstasy or anything psychedelic. Just the fear of not knowing
what that come down was going to be, Like, is
there a reason they wouldn't, But just show you know,
you don't get that same come down with psilocybin. You
don't come down. That's that's just because m d m
A works on the serotonin one receptor, which is the
same as your antidepressants, but for some reason, the depletion
(22:26):
of that is very suicide feeling, whereas the others are
dealing with a different serotonin receptor. Where you're you're not overwhelmed.
But also in terms of your depression, and you've done
a lot of things that have helped your mood. You've
lost a lot of weight, you stopped drinking for a
period of time, for a long period of time. So
as a depressive person, I mean, let's talk about that
(22:49):
a little bit, because when you're doing a lot, how
do you know which one is really hot? Because you
take supplements also, you take mood supplements. I mean, as
far as drinking goes, when a person is depressed, king
is like a wet blanket, right, Yeah, Drinking is kind
of a form of self medicating. The problem with with
it is that you self medicate, but then you're also
(23:11):
dealing with the effects of the medication. It's a little
bit like m d m A. So like, initially the
medication of alcohol feels really good, especially if you have
anxiety based depression, which I kind of do. And initially
it squelches your anxiety, so that feels really like relief.
But as you drink, you get rebound anxiety. So it
(23:35):
becomes kind of this vicious cycle where you're actually creating
anxiety and then putting it out and around five, you know,
for your cocktail, and so it's a little like eye drops.
You know, it gets the red out, but then the
red comes back stronger, you know. And also all alcohol
is technically a depressant. Now that's difficult to say because
(23:56):
when someone's feeling anxious. The feeling of alcohol is incredibly powerful.
It's very quick in terms of the way it gets
rid of anxiety. But as an experiment, Yeah, for me,
I found, like wow, when I stopped drinking, you know,
over the course of a week or something, I have
(24:17):
a different energy. I mean, first of all, like I
wake up super early, super clear. You feel your feelings
some more, definitely. So I'm not saying that you stop
drinking and suddenly you're you're happy. That's not it at all.
In fact, in some ways, you you become more sensitive
to your mood. So along with stopping drinking on kind
(24:38):
of a regular basis, I'll still drink on a special
occasion or something. But I looked into supplements and genetic
testing for depression. So I did that, and I found
that I have a variant in my in my DNA
that makes it difficult for me to get full late
and be twelve into my brain, which we were just
(24:59):
talking about, and be twelve and folate or absolutely necessary
to create serotonin, dopamine and all those newer transmitters. So
with the help of this psychiatrist, he put me on
like this Joseph supplements, But you're absolutely right. In fact,
I asked him, I said, how do I know which
of these like fifteen supplements you know, are doing what?
(25:22):
And is that the ketamine is it? That is it?
And he said it's synergistic. It's like each thing works
together and the whole is greater than the sum of
its parts. So you really kind of can answer the
question of what's doing what exactly right. Yeah, I think
that's how a lot of people feel about I guess
(25:42):
it doesn't really matter because if everything is feeling better
and you're thinking more clearly and you're sharp, like you
want to be in present and all of the things
that you care about, then who really cares what it is?
As long as you know. If it's a combination of things,
that's fine too. Okay, well, this sounds like a good
time to take a break. M You know, exercise helps
(26:03):
let's say ten percent. The supplements might help, the kenemine
might help twenty five, antidepressents help forty. You know, you're
kind of building using all those tools. So it's really
about finding your personal cocktail. Each person has to do
the work to find what's going to work for them. Yes,
and you can find good integrative psychiatrists sometimes who kind
(26:27):
of know shit, who know about like supplements and things
like that, like other functional ways to kind of add
to your Yes, It's like I wish I could tell
everybody how to go get these micro docing or how
to be part of a research study. But for instance,
I was in National, Tennessee shooting for my documentary and
(26:49):
one of these white rappers that I interviewed down there
had tons of mushrooms and just kept handing them out
to everybody. So it's like people are growing them, but
there's no real, like legitimate way to get them now,
so that's not helpful. But the kenemy therapy is available
to people, and I don't know how many states I know,
I think it's nationwide. It's legal because ketamine the big
barrier with ketamine as the price, I mean, ketamine itself
(27:12):
costs like nothing, but they charge like six hundred dollars
in infusion. Is totally inflated prices. So now is that
something that someone would go to their general care physician
and be like, hey, I would like to get ketamine infusion.
So they have to seek out a psychiatrist. What is
the protocol? You can basically go online and see where
(27:33):
in your city they offer ketamine infusion. But as I said,
be careful because a lot of them are an acesiologists,
that doesn't mean they can't give it. Like the one
I go to now, the practice is run by an
m casiologist, But I really like the nurse practitioner who
gives the ketamine, and so that's important. But yeah, you
(27:54):
you can just look online and see where it's offered
in your city, but it's not something that a g
P would necessarily give. And ideally, if you can, yeah,
I would always pick a psychiatrist who offers it over
over any other doctor. Have you ever tried ketamine? I
mean that's something that gay boys do in the gay clubs.
Did you know that? Yeah, I've I've snorted ketamine before
(28:16):
when you were gay? Well no, but I was with
a gay guy and he said, do you want to
try this? And I was said, sure, why not? And
I snorted it and I don't, I don't know, I
just didn't. I just felt really relaxed. It wasn't anything
that I wanted to snort. Again. There are things that
I would like to try, like what you're already kind
of coked up? In general, Brandon, You're kind of very
(28:39):
detailed or definitely don't mix adder all with cocaine. Do
not do that ever. Never drug tips one oh one. Yeah,
you're welcome everybody for this episode of Who Do You
Think You Are? So these are different modalities that are
used for treating depression beyond antidepression medicine. And you've got
(29:04):
like ketamine. They're doing like heavy research on psilocybins. Psilocybin
is mushrooms. Psilocybin is mushrooms, magic mushrooms, right, okay, And
then a katamine people used to call as a it
was a horse tranquilizer. It was it was actually an
anesthetic that was used in the Vietnam War because it
had such immediate effects on Vietnamese horses, Vietnamese soldiers at
(29:29):
US soldiers in Vietnam, and then it became used for
and that practices, and like a lot of things that
were therapeutic, they kind of went, oh, there's abuse potential,
so you know, it was just you know, used mainly
by that's at that point in terms of like there's
(29:49):
definitely a movement now where people are talking about drugs
in the sense of helping themselves and helping their psyches
heal from past trauma. But you know, there was obviously
a lot long era of people just using drugs recreationally
too well. Actually, psychedelics were being researched for actual mental
health benefits. And you know that's a whole history. I
(30:14):
don't know that the ins and ouncer, but let's put
it this way, like, it's interesting that the government shut
that down and instead said, hey, let's create opioids that
people can be kind that are synthetic. Yes, because that's
supported by a drug company or the alcohol industry, which
we know alcohol is tremendously toxic WOA. But in other words,
(30:38):
that's toxic, whereas psychedelics do not have a toxic kind
of a top limit, like there's very little evidence of
any kind of great harm compared to alcohol, for example.
But yet alcohol is legal and psychedelics, including magic mushrooms,
(30:59):
are elite. It's kind of like, what you know, I
wouldn't be surprised if in the next like, um, several years,
if that doesn't change, because yeah, I think it's gonna
because it's moving so fast. This movement is kind of
happening with such alacrity that there is no stopping in
and then the government realizes, oh, this is a perfect
example of like grassroots you know what I mean, activism
(31:20):
actually working because people are saying, no, we need this
to help people, and the government is kind of just
having to agree with it. And that's the same with
cannabis legalization, but that's across the country. But that said,
psilocybin is an incredibly powerful drug, so it's not like
cannabis where I think psilocybin you have to be incredibly
careful about because it is so powerful. So you need
(31:44):
to make sure you're in a safe environment, that you're
you don't do that by yourself, and that there are
other people around you who can save you. Because the
problem with psychedelic drugs, really powerful psychedelics is God forbid
you you have a break where you kind of decide
you want to jump off a balcony because you think
(32:05):
you can fly. Do you read about that though, like people,
because I read about people having psychological breaks. I've read
about that with ayahuasca and peyote, but not mushrooms. Pearty
is similar to mushrooms. I think what they say is
if you have schizophrend, you know, kind of an undiagnosed
kind of potential for that, which usually reveals itself right
(32:28):
at later in life. Yeah. But but in other words,
a psychedelic can trigger that, which is why I like
from what I've read, I would never do a psychedelic
completely by myself, ever, I think that there you know,
you need an ideally, you need to be around somebody
who isn't necessarily flying as high as you are. I mean,
(32:52):
it's interesting when you say, though about taking something when
you're somebody's personality is heightened or whatever feeling you're feeling
after your infusion, your catamine infusion, because it's like that
story about me giving Chunk melatonin, but he was in
such a heightened state of anxiety that giving that to
him only kept him there, and which my vet told
(33:12):
me when I came back, Oh, when somebody's in a
heightened state of anxiety, any pill you take like that
is just going to keep your personality there, which made
no sense to me. Well, there's two things. First of all,
I have no idea how melotonein his processed and dogs well,
And second of all, here's the big issue, Like with
my dog. My dog weighs thirteen pounds and my mom
(33:33):
feeds it like it's a human being who weighs a
hundred forty and then like wonders why she's fat. It's
like the weight of the dog requires sectually smaller dose.
So chances are if you gave Chunk like a human
dose of melatonin, that's like an overdose. Yeah, but his
doctor was prescribing him human xanex. So what human zanex is? Okay,
(33:54):
but in a tiny dose? Oh okay, Well it was
working for me. His zanex was work for me. Brandon,
If you could take one psychedelic trip, what would it
be with? Probably mushrooms, right, I would like you to
do mushrooms at my house. I'll leave. I'll have my
belt video camera with our old vhs. What would you leave?
I think you should be there. I just don't want
(34:16):
to deal with the drama, you know what I mean,
Like if he gets all out of whack or something,
that's probably decisions Like I don't want to deal with that.
You know. It's like people who's like first time, Like
I was over my friend's house this weekend and somebody said,
oh my gosh, I've never smoked pot, And I said, well,
then don't. I don't want to be here for that.
I remember we were at a party and someone like,
should I do some pot? But last time I fell
(34:37):
asleep and you were like, yes, I don't do it,
like we don't want to have to carry you think
of other people when you're thinking about doing these things. Yeah,
and you're also somebody that doesn't respond to marijuana, to cannabis. No,
I don't like marijuana because why First of all, I
find like, you know, my brain works on a level
(34:57):
of precision, that's just the way my brain response. And
I don't like the kind of vagueness of never knowing
what the doses, really what the mood is. And then finally,
probably most importantly, I just don't like the way I
feel the next day. So you got a pot hangover? Yeah,
I feel it in my system the next day. And
is it from all cannabis so inedible joint? I mean,
(35:19):
you know, we've had a few laughs, and the only
times where I've had positive experiences with cannabis have been
with Chelsea. But even that isn't consistent of and they're
not just so much fun that I kind of go,
it's worth the hangover and stuff. Yeah, I think you
remember you once saying you felt everything that you said
(35:40):
was so stupid. I remember, Yeah, there was that one
time where I felt like I was speaking and there's
part of me like judging myself speaking. God, that's dumb.
But that does happen. That can happen with cannabis, and
that's a matter of and I think the I think
the real thing to remind everybody about is when you
are having a drug experience, to set your attention and
even if it is recreational, to say I'm going to
(36:02):
be in a good mood, this is going to be
a fun experience. I'm not going to pick out if
that's your issue and it's my issue, so I have
to say that a lot to myself. But it is
about setting an attention, even and if it's in a
casual way. Yeah, but it's also I totally agree with you,
and I think it's also about like respecting your own
brain chemistry. Like I know people who will do cannabis
(36:23):
and it really relaxes them and makes them social and whatever.
My tendency with cannabis and like, I've had quite a
few experiences where it's made me paranoid and it hasn't
relaxed me. It's tensed me up and made me more anxious.
So I kind of just respect my own brain chemistry,
you know, individual. Yeah, I mean the thing is, I
(36:43):
think a lot of people don't know that much about
their own brain chemistry. You know, they know about their moods,
but they're not as educated as you are about your brainstry. Yeah,
but I think again, because a lot of this stuff
is still, you know, new, even for scientists. I mean
only like psychedelics, they've been shut down for the last
(37:04):
what fifty years. It's only now that we're re researching them.
You can be aware of your own state of mind.
For a while, I was keeping, you know, a journal
where I literally would write down what what even I
had eaten, because I knew that even what I ate
could affect my mood suppart of it. You know, once
(37:25):
I decided to stop drinking, I just became very aware
of the tiniest differences of what ingesting different things could do.
And for me, as someone who suffers some depression, that
was empowering. Do you feel like you've had any depression
in the last six months? No, I haven't had I
(37:48):
haven't had clinical depression since I've been on antidepressants, but
I've definitely become happier since I took these additional steps,
because that's what the different to this. I feel like
now having known you for about three years, and when
you use the word manage, that's often the way you
(38:08):
hear people discuss their depression is that it's being managed,
but they're not any happier, and they should be that
they don't feel better, they just feel okay. Well, the thing,
you're absolutely right, But what I was gonna say is
you over the last year, I would say, seem happier,
Like this seems like an increase in your joy. I mean,
(38:28):
I definitely feel that way. But I think you're you're
hitting on something that's really important, which also touches upon
what's the difference between depression and sadness. You know, sadness
is generally triggered by something, you know, an event situation,
where suppression is different depression, it's just a vague or
(38:50):
sense of like not wanting to do anything, a sadness
that kind of permeates everything and isn't necessarily event specific.
So an antidepressant manages to get you out of that hole,
but it doesn't necessarily get you kind of you know,
flying high and happy. It just has lifted you from
(39:13):
the whole, which is depression. I find some of these
other modalities actually lift you higher. For me, Okay, we're
gonna take a quick break and we'll be right back.
You were saying, even just the inclination to want to
go out, to start to wonder what your friends are doing,
or want to be social is a sign that your
(39:34):
depression is lifting. You're absolutely right. One of the things
that I would say characterizes depression is a diminishment in desire,
so your desire. So it's like when you have no
sex drive applied back to the rest of your life exactly,
I don't have a desire to hang out with friends.
I don't have a desire to have sex. I don't
(39:54):
have a desire to go out to a cocktail party
or anything. And the deeper depression, the more squelch and
diminish your desire is for everything. So on one level,
you're getting out of that hole. And one of the ways,
like I have a friend who just started antidepressants like
(40:17):
a week ago, and she was I was like, are
you feeling them yet? She's like, no, I'm not really
feeling them, And then she went on to tell me
like she was feeling like a little bit sad that
she had isolated herself for a while and she missed
kind of her friends. I said, then it's working because
that's your desire coming back. You're actually the first the
(40:38):
first moments are you kind of going, oh my gosh,
I've isolated myself and I don't want to be isolated.
So that's the way people can kind of make sure
that they're dealing with depression. If if you're feeling your
desire to do everything is down, you should see a
medical professional. It's also helpful to have someone in your
(40:59):
life that is going through it because it gives me
a lot more understanding of depression since it's not something
Now you definitely don't suffer from it. I'm kind of
always in awe of your denial. Now you're anti depressed,
like whatever or in your whatever chemicals are in your brain.
I mean, you are definitely functioning at a level of
(41:21):
anti depressive. What about you, Brendan, have you ever felt depressed?
Only one time? And I and when I got my period, Yes,
because you wanted the baby. Every time it was seasonal depression.
I would say it was just my last year in
South Dakota, and I just could not get myself. I
was still on his track scholarship, I wasn't going to practice.
I didn't want to do anything. And so the way
(41:42):
you're describing your lack of desire, one of my favorite
things to do is eat. Like I didn't want to eat,
I didn't want to do engage. I wanted to be alone.
And that was the only time I can remember now
looking back in retrospect, to me like that was depression,
Like that wasn't just a sad or a mood. That
was an inability to be happy. That's absolutely And what
(42:02):
do you think that was triggered by. I think there
were a lot of things, but I think it was
being in that state at that time with just the
doom and gloom, not being out of the closet yet
and knowing that that was that hurdle was about to
be jumped. But also seasonal as you're mentioning, like you know,
but not being out of the closet and knowing that's coming.
I think it was a culmination of things, but just
(42:24):
being in that season and a lot of people say
that though like you talk to people like I love Seattle.
I love the overcast and the gray, but people like
but living in it is different than experiencing it for
a week. It really can have an effect on your
mood and who you are well. Light therapy definitely helps
for people who have seasonal depression, you know, during winter months,
especially like you said, in in parts of the country
(42:47):
or the world where you don't see a lot of
sunlight that can definitely also trigger depression, and light therapy
works with that. You know, there are other things as well,
like there's magnetic therapy where they use super powerful magnets
has also shown some results. I think my philosophy is,
(43:08):
you know, research this stuff. You know that I love
researching stuff, which usually you just call me and I
don't have the patients to google ship, so whenever I
have a question, I just text Alec what's up with
and then I get a page JOSSI a back. Usually
just call and tell you what's actionable and whatever you've
(43:29):
asked me to research. But um, but yeah, there are
definitely things you can do. But I think awareness of
when you're depressed is one of the first. But to
be also compassionate and empathetic towards other people when you
don't suffer from depression because my instinct is it always
to get up and move on. You know, well, that's
one of the worst things people can say to someone
(43:49):
who's depressed is snap out of it, you know that,
or you should just go out more. You need to
put yourself in an environment where you're on happy people.
And it's like, you don't understand that's completely not within
the realm of possibility. So yeah, one of the things
about compassion and empathy is understanding that you know, they
(44:11):
can't snap out of it, and going out to a
group event isn't going to work either. I think what
you're saying works the most is creating new habits that
are helping and aiding your state of mind. So instead
of having bad habits, you know, we rehbituate ourselves, which
is much easier than any of us think, because you
really can, in like three to five days, just start
(44:32):
doing something every day and then it does become part
of your habit and then you're helping your brain and
you're on your own show. Right Like you know, if
you're drinking, try reducing your drinking. There's no harm in
trying to take a B twelve and foe late supplement.
There are supplements like metal Guard that you can get
on Amazon or anywhere, So there's no harm in kind
(44:52):
of trying to increase your B twelve and folate. There's
no harm in adding an A C which is another
supplement that can really help with negative O C D thinking.
In fact, psychiatrists are saying any C as a supplement
is having more powerful effects for O C D thinking
negative thinking than any prescription they have. So there are
(45:14):
these things you can do, and like you said, you know,
taking those little steps can help. Well. I think a
lot of the concerns for people as well are the
side effects. So are there, to your knowledge, side effects
associated with ketamine and antidepressants. Antidepressants definitely have side effects,
and I think that's one of the big reasons some
people want to avoid them, and it's also one of
(45:36):
the reasons why with antidepressants it can be so hit
or miss, like people sometimes need to try several antidepressants
before they find one that doesn't have the side effects
that make them want to stop it. Ketamine doesn't have
any specific lists of side effects. You can't drive right
(45:57):
afterwards because your sense of balance and whatever is really
thrown and during Yes, you cannot roller blade, which is
usually how I get to and from appointments. But I
think that with ketamine, you know, ketamine infusion is just
to be clear, you do go on a trip like
it's psychoactive. Well, you said, okay, the last time you
(46:18):
did it, you said you felt like you were in
a matrix right in some sort of underworld or underground.
I felt like it was giving me glimpses of the universe,
of of like a deeper understanding of the universe. And
while I was in it, I could understand it. And
as I was coming out of it, I knew that
I wouldn't be able to describe it, like words were
(46:42):
not going to do it justice. And sure enough, as
I was returning back, I felt that ability to discuss
it went away. But you're aware of it, like weirdly
in ketamine, I'm aware that I'm on ketamine while I'm
going through this journey me and I choose to use
(47:03):
music while I do it, and that music can oftentimes
dictate where I'm going and what I'm experiencing. It's kind
of cool if you kind of are prepared for it
and you don't freak out by it. Brendan, you were
talking about ketamine as an anti pain thing for fibro mayalga.
That's it's also being used as that, but it's used
(47:24):
in much higher doses and for much longer so a
lot of times for fibro myalgia, you don't necessarily go
on what I call a trip. You're just kind of
out of it because they do sometimes give you tranquilizers
and anti nausea medicine for fibro mayalgia and ketamine, but
during depression treatment, oftentimes it's about the practitioner finding that
(47:45):
perfect dose for you so that you're not overwhelmed, but
you're definitely disassociating from your real life. It's kind of cool. Yeah,
I mean I feel like I should do it. Don't
you think I should do There have been several times
where you've actually during my trip where I've gone, wow,
I wish Chelsea was Yeah, I think I should try it.
(48:07):
You want to try it with me, Brandon, We can
report back when we do our ayahuasca review with Dan
and Jenny or ayahuasca. I think you should definitely do it,
but again, I can't stress enough going to the right place.
I'll go with you to your place. We can go together. Yeah,
then we can stumble out of there together. I would
go up to speak to you after. Yeah. No, that's
(48:27):
funny that you say that because you texted me. You're like, oh,
I love you so much. I can't wait to tell
you all about this. And then you're like, please call
me right away, and I called you You're like, i'll
talk to you tomorrow. It's true that I kind of
like was like, oh my god, I have so much
to say. But yeah, then I was like, I think
I'm just gonna like hold it in. It's also kind
of bizarre what you're saying, because I mean, you know,
(48:48):
you're going like, yeah, I kind of feel like I
got a glimpse of the universe. I know it does
feel bizarre, but you know when you're saying, well, it does,
of course that feel stupid. But okay, so I've added
more stand updates. Everybody, you can come see me perform.
Let me think. At first, I want to say very
(49:09):
very heartfelt thank you too. Not Dr al kashi Chian
thank you. He's not a medical professional, and he's just
one of my very very friends who's pretty much the
smartest person I know. I'm coming to Brisbane. I'm coming
to Sydney. I'm coming to Melbourne, Auckland, New Zealand. I'm
coming to Pittsburgh, Cleveland, Grand Rapids, Vancouver, Indianapolis, Milwaukee, Salt
(49:34):
Lake City, Kansas City, Oklahoma City, which is a place
I've never performed before, and Toronto show. We are adding
another show so you can come see me on My
Life will be the Death of Me Stand up Comedy
Tour Brandon. People want to know how they can get
a hold of you. They can't, but they can go
to your accountable page if they want to look up
any social issues or any organizations. I have a lot
(49:57):
of suggestions of ways you can get involved on my
accountable dot you page. And after that you should check
out Emily's List for any female candidates. Yes, Emily's List
is a great organization that I partnered with that help
elect progressive women for the Democratic Party. And the book
is called Life Will Be the Death of Me and
my name is Tracy Joy Handler. Goodnight, Life will Be
(50:22):
the Death of Me as a production of I Heart Radio.
For more podcasts from I Heart Radio, visit the I
heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to
your favorite shows,
Hi, I'm Chelsea Handler. Welcome to Life Will Be the
Death of Me, a production of I Heart Radio. We
are here today in studio again. I've enjoying my in
studio interviews with a very dear friend of mine, and
he has been recently taking ketamine. What's the proper ketamine infusions?
(00:21):
You've been taking them? You've been doing them? What's the
proper verbiage for that? I've been Um, I've been doing
ketamine infusions. Okay, So because of depression, and I know
a lot of people are interested. I certainly am after
reading Michael Pollan's book about psychedelics, about psilocybin, about all
the different kind of PTSD trauma that it helps either
(00:45):
kind of diminish or deteriorate or I don't know, so
whether it's acid, whether it's m D M A, whether
it's psilocybin or academine. This is kind of the new
wave of pichedelics and this kind of there's a new
acceptance happening of people and neuroscientists and psychiatrists and psychologists
(01:08):
using it to help patients. So I wanted to talk
to you about your experience, Alec, because I've known you
for how many How many years have we been engaged
A long time? Like? Is it ten years? Yeah? Probably
ten years? Okay? And Brandon, how long have I known you?
Three years? Okay? Three years? Okay, good to know. And
I'm forty four. Okay, So talk to me a little
(01:31):
bit about your research and why you decided to to
start kadamine infusions. Okay. Well, I've had depression, probably from
my mid twenties, so I've been on that the word
you hate journey. I'm trying to figure that out for
um a couple of decades now. And I've been on
antidepressants most of my life, I guess, all different kinds,
(01:55):
And while they definitely stabilize one's mood or my mood,
they didn't necessarily return me to a place that I
would characterize as what I remembered when I was not depressed.
And so when I started reading about ketamine and ketamine infusions,
(02:15):
the thing that intrigued me was the ketamine seems to
work on a completely different basis than any antidepressant. Most
antidepressants that are used today are called S S R I,
and so they have a specific mechanism in the brain ketamine, which, weirdly,
scientists don't, and doctors don't fully understand why exactly it's
(02:39):
having such a strong antidepressive effect. Nonetheless, they do know
that it works completely differently than s S. Al Right,
So I was just intrigued to see, could that, you know,
restore more joy into my life. So while I was stabilized,
I wanted to kind of see if I could turned
(03:00):
to a place where I was even happier. Okay, and
so you're still on your antidepressants and you do the
ketamine and fusion. Yes, I'm on antidepressants, and ketamine is
kind of an adjunct therapy for me. Ketamine has great
speed in its action, which is why I like it's
kind of revolutionary for people with suicidal tendencies because the
(03:24):
anti suicidal effect is almost mediate, whereas most antidepressants require
like anywhere from three to six weeks to building your system,
and even then you don't know whether an antidepressant, a
particular one is going to work for you or not,
but especially for patients who are suicidal, obviously that's too
(03:45):
long a period to wait. And so one of the
most groundbreaking things about ketemine was that it has an
immediate effect. So yeah, for me, though, ketamine. I wasn't
suicidal by any means. I was managing on my typepressants,
but I was intrigued and I want to see if
ketamine infusions could make me better. So around a year
(04:09):
and a half ago, I went down to La Hoya
and I did a series of around seven or eight
ketamine infusions. Because initially they kind of suggest that you
do a series of them with a few days apart
between each infusion, and then after that there really isn't
any clear cut guidance or guideline about how often you
(04:33):
need to do it from that point on or if
you need to do it, And I think it's an
individual thing. Like in my case, well, after the first
eight I waited like six months, I didn't feel the need,
and then I started doing like once every four weeks
or so. But there's nothing hard and fast about that.
(04:53):
So but what do those infusions look like? Is somebody
sitting there with you, like what are you taking? Because
remember I put you in touch with a front of
mine from high school who was also experimenting with ketamine infusion,
and she was kind of not taking the right cocktail. Yeah,
you're right, she wasn't taking the right cockati. Here's the
problem with ketamine infusions is that, by and large it's
(05:14):
like a little bit the Wild West in terms of
how doctors are giving it. Because it's a drug that
was created as an anesthetic and used in the Vietnam War,
and then ketamine then became used widely by vets, and
you know, obviously as a party drug sometimes. But once
(05:35):
it's therapeutic unit quality was discovered, the doctor's giving it
tended to be anesthesiologists and not necessarily psychiatrists. One of
the reasons I went to Lahoya was because I found
a psychiatrist who was giving ketamine um. When I returned
to Los Angeles. My first ketamine infusion in Los Angeles
(05:58):
was a horrible experience, as I went to an anesthesiologist
who basically stuck me in a dark room and told
me to lie on the exam table. It was completely
pitch black when he left the door closed, and I
had a horrible experience. So when I spoke to your friend,
she too had gone to one of these clinics that
(06:21):
we're giving ketamine infusions, but they had not only given
her ketamine, but they had mixed it for no good
reason with propofol and not Michael Jackson, trash and Michael Jackson.
It's like another anesthetic which has no help for depressive purposes.
But I imagine they gave it to knock her out
(06:45):
so that she wouldn't require any supervision while she had
the ketamine. So it's a tricky thing. You have to
make sure that you find someplace where there is going
to be either a doctor or nurse practitioner with you
in that room while you have the infusion, and a
lot of places don't do that. And so when you
do sit down with in the right environment, you want
(07:07):
to sit down with somebody like are you setting an
intention for your experience? Are you going there to resolve
in a specific issue or just for your overall better
well being? I think you're going to get an overall benefit.
It's it's a little different than let's say, if you're
creating an intention for a psilocybin or LSD trip. Therapeutically,
(07:27):
that's discussed more. They don't really talk about ketamine intention.
That said, though, I have definitely found that before a
ketamine infusion, I can set not an intention so much
as like a subject I want to explore. In fact,
when I was in Lahoya. You and I were working
on a TV project and there are a couple of
(07:50):
infusions where before I did them, I was like, I
wish I could figure out what we're going to do
with that series. And during the courts of the ketamine trip,
as I call them, I did kind of go into
some you know, thought processes and came out with certain
insights and kind of breakthroughs. I think I called you
(08:10):
a lot of times, right you did, because and sometimes interestingly,
you come out of your ketamine infusion and you're like
very kind of off your It takes a moment to
adjust and like, for instance, this week, you said I'm
going to stay protect myself from the next twenty four
hours because I'm in this state where you kind of
have to digest what you've experienced. That's a really good point.
(08:32):
The thing with ketamine is sometimes you come out of
it and you feel really happy, and that happens i'd
say like seventy percent of the time. But there are
other times where after an infusion where you feel a
little more vulnerable. And one of my psychiatrists who does
(08:54):
ketamine infusion told me, because I hadn't one experience where
I did ketamine, and then I went out to dinner
with a group of people who were very anxious and
fear based and very negative. And the next morning I
woke up and my loote had plunged, And my psychiatrists
explained that you're kind of more open right after academie
(09:16):
confusion because your brain is actually creating new synapses. That's
what the beginning of research is showing that it's actually
kedemine over the course of forty eight hours begins to
create new synapses, and so during that period it's better
for you to be creating synapses on like happier pathways
(09:39):
than on anxious or pathways. So his suggestion, which I'm
trying to put into practice now, is yeah, for like
the first twenty four hours, or certainly for the first evening,
just staying in, you know, being kind of reflective, doing
things that Yeah, there you go. I don't think the
(10:00):
brings you anything that brings you an explosion of joy,
anything that brings you closer to yourself after the kintamine treatment.
Could being alone have an adverse effect on people? Though?
It like, if you are a depressive person or someone
who gets anxious, would it be better for you, or
for someone per se to be in a group of
(10:20):
happy people are doing something active that makes them happy.
I don't think there's a hard and fast rule, but
I would say that no, because right after ketamine, you're
not feeling particularly lonely, like you're in a pretty nice state.
It's more dangerous to subject yourself to anxiety or anything
(10:41):
or new. You want to go to your safe spot
for him, that means he goes home and it hangs
out by like I can call Chelsea. In fact, I do.
She's usually my first call after my ketamine because I'm usually,
like you know, very anxious to tell her what I experienced.
But there are certain incoming calls that I won't take anymore,
you know, right after actamine, and a lot of times
(11:03):
that has to do with work or right. But also,
I mean, I think all these drugs are interesting because
everybody has a different you know, like when you're talking
about micro docing, you know, I did mushrooms at my
house this weekend with a bunch of people recreationally. I
did chocolate mushrooms and they were really really mellow and
really mild and in that kind of environment. Now that
I know what I do about these hallucinogens. I try
(11:26):
to be really mindful instead of just taking drugs to
party and laugh my house off, I try and actually
really and enjoy the moment and really be present in
the moment. Now they're prescribing psilocybin, micro docing me for
research in a research state, prescribing, well, I'm prescribing it.
I have a surplus of it. And I can picture
you going at CPS and going high. I need my
(11:48):
psilocybin dose. Give it to me now. It's called Chelsea Handler. Okay,
we're gonna take a quick break and we'll be right back.
I was skiing. Where was I being, I don't know,
sun Valley, maybe this winter, and somebody said, oh, yeah,
I have a bunch of fun guy, and I went,
is that what we're calling it now? And she said, yeah,
it's micro dosing psilocybin. And so we all took some, obviously,
(12:11):
because anything that's available to me, I'll just eat. And
I noticed the tiniest kick up. I was just awake
a little bit more. I wasn't hallucinating by any means,
but everything was a little bit more sparkly, much the
same as it is if I were to take an
edible while I was skiing, you know, like a micro
dosed edible. But with that, you know a little bit
(12:31):
about that too, because there's like suggested cycles when you're
supposed to take that correct. Yeah, micro dosing is is
another kind of modality that is being heavily researched down
for depression, and that seems to work on a different
level than um ketamine and basically most psychedelics. What research
(12:55):
shows is that they camped down the brain default mode network,
and the brain default mode network, which is kind of
a prefrontal brain thing, is basically what kind of serves
as a traffic warden in your brain, and it kind
of stops certain connections and keeps you, if you want
to call it, kind of feeling sane. But it also
(13:17):
keeps you very much ego based, very much about your
own kind of history, like this is my past, is
my present, this is my future. So that's what the
brain default mode network does, and what they've realized is
psilocybin or LSD or any number of these things seems
to suppress that, and so suddenly you're making connections in
(13:41):
your brain that you don't usually make, and they've noticed
that that can have even more long term effects on
depression that's been shown with megadosis of psilocybin or LST,
where they're seeing like depression going away for if not
(14:01):
even years, by one megados one mechadz, I mean that
is like that is a retreat I could have at
my house for people. I mean, I would totally be illegal,
but okay, well then I'll change my address so you
could move to the Netherlands though where it is, I
don't think. I'm not thinking about moving to Brendon. Can
you please find me a house. I'm working with real
(14:22):
estate agents all over. Don't worry. Yes, ski season is coming,
so we have to get creative. She's trying to find
out drug watts in all different countries. In Spain. By
the way, in Spain, it's legal to do mushrooms, and
I have a house there, so I don't think that's
a coincidence. So micro dosing, though, is basically taking that
same philosophy and kind of saying, Okay, if you take
(14:42):
a micro dose over time, can that have the same effect?
And there isn't proof yet either way, but in both
these situations and one of the things you just said about,
like when you do chocolate mushrooms, the setting and the
scene is incredibly important, so again a little bit like ketamine,
(15:04):
Like it's really important who you do it with, whether
you feel safe, whether you like the space you're in,
all that stuff, and that has effects even in terms
of what your takeaway is from it. So um, I
think that's true for ketamine as well, which is why
I say, like, make sure that the place you're going
(15:24):
feels comfortable, like the room you're doing it in, that
you feel a connection, or you feel safe with the
nurse or the doctor doing you know, giving it to you.
Those things actually seem to affect the result. So micro
dosing is is basically just the mini psilocybin dose. But
I found when I attempted it that it corresponded very
(15:48):
much with what my state of mind was before I
did it. So if I was like a little anxious
that day, it would make me more anxious. If I
wasn't anxious, or I was feeling creative, it would make
me a little bit more creative. And I personally decided
I didn't want to I didn't want to go either
those ways. And that's when I took those mushrooms from
you and decided to use them for thank you for
(16:10):
making me your dealer. So that didn't work for you.
Now a couple of the other things because a lot
you know, like for instance, ayahuasca isn't a drug that
people who are taking an antidepressant are supposed to do.
Remember we looked into that for you when I was
going to do it, and anybody on an SSR one
s R I, well, here's the thing. I was just
(16:31):
having the numbers and letters confused. The thing about ayouasca
and psilocybin and LSD and antidepressants is that they all
work on the Saratonain kind of receptors. And most sites
and most practitioners will say, oh no, no, you shouldn't
do an s s R I and then do ayouasca
(16:54):
or psilocybin or l s D, and that's certainly kind
of the safe kind of sponsor. However, I've spoken to
like James Fadiman, who is kind of like the god
of all this. He's the original researcher. He really knows
his stuff here. And if you dig deeper, what you
find out is that psilocybin deals with a different subset
(17:18):
of your serotonin receptor than your antidepressant does so even
though most people would be like, no, no, you shouldn't
be on antidepressants and take psilocybin in actual fact, and
I'm not a doctor, so don't follow this advice. I'm
a doctor, so but I'm just saying in my research
and my conversations with people who seem to be real,
(17:40):
real experts, not just you know, an article about this,
they say, technically speaking, psilocybin you can take with an antidepressant,
but you'll need more of it to have the same effect.
But with ayuasca, you know, it's again the same thing.
Just to kind of bring down their liability to the
lowest level possible, they say, no, you should have weaned
(18:02):
yourself off depressants, And I don't disagree with that, like,
to be honest with you, like, that's the reason I
haven't taken ayuasca. But there's another reason why, which is
that you don't want to shoot your pants yea and
vomit in front of you. It sounds like a very
valid reason. I don't have to be there, I mean
I can, I will be filming it, obviously, but I
don't have to be in your phone, I mean, Instagram, television,
(18:26):
you know someone I know who's kind of a shaman.
I said, ayuask is like swimming the Atlantic Ocean, and
like people who do that before they've dipped their toe
and anything else. It's kind of major um, kind of
like a little hesitant. Yeah. No, it is a very
intense experience. But I did a lot of acid in
(18:48):
high school, so I was used to that. Did you
have you ever done acid? I think I've done acid
once in college. The last time I did psilocybin was,
you know, in my twenties. But you did try the
micro docing effect. I did micro doocing, yeah and stop.
And I'm not ruling out a psilocybin trip, but it
would need to be in a real therapeutic setting, like
(19:12):
I'd like to do it with like a therapist. And
that becomes a whole other hurdle because you have to
do this song and dance because it's not legal here.
There are places in the Netherlands though, where they will
do a proper therapeutic pilocybin. Yeah, you've only just what
taken in edible Brandon, Is that correct? Yeah, I've never
done anything like edelic and yeah, and I've seen you
(19:33):
on inedible and I would recommend as a doctor that
you don't take it any further. You tell me anytime
you're gonna take mushrooms at Brandon came out to you
on these, I don't what would be? What would you be?
I don't know. She seems to know that. I trust that.
I think he just gets so much out of an
edible there's no reason to go further, likely giggles. You know,
they are doing something new out of Colorado called psychedelic
(19:56):
cannabis trips, which is that they have certain specific hybrid
strains that they use, and they put headphones on a
little bit like what a therapeutic psilocybin or LSD trip
is supposed to do while they have a therapist there
and you have kind of a curated playlist or whatever,
and you do an integration before and after. But it's
(20:18):
called psychedelic cannabis therapy in Colorado. In Colorado, there are
a few practitioners here, so that's legal. We don't know
a lot about the m d M A micro do
sing right, do you know? I know very little about
But I do know that m d M A and
antidepressants definitely do not mix. That is where you can
(20:38):
get into trouble. Oh yeah, because m D m A
depletes your whole to serotonin, rushes serotonin into your brain
because that's like a way for days afterwards, your serotonin
level plunges. But the problem is the danger is during
the rush with your antidepressants, it can create something called
(20:58):
serotonin syndrome, which is basically an overdose of serotonin that's
life threatening. Okay, well that's good to know because for
regular people who aren't on antid de depressants, there's a
that day of the week. I think it's usually Tuesday
where you feel if you've taken an XSC on Saturday,
feeling great Sunday because it's still in your body, and
Monday you're like, WHOA, don't have a hangover, And then
(21:21):
Tuesday you want to kill yourself and I think they
call it to suicide Tuesday. We were just talking about
that the other night. So there is a definite depletion
and what you can do is take B twelve they say,
to just kind of balance that out. Um, but you
have to take it before, during, and after, so that
sometimes helps people. But BE twelve and fol Late can
help people with that because BE twelve and Foel late
(21:43):
are what your brain needs to create neurotransmitters like serotonin.
So taking a big dose to be twelve and folate
is definitely something I would do if I did that,
but I don't. I think a lot of people the
fear of that crash is what keeps them from doing
a things psychedelic because I know my freshman is offering
your college when all of my friends are out doing
(22:04):
ecstasy or anything psychedelic. Just the fear of not knowing
what that come down was going to be, Like, is
there a reason they wouldn't, But just show you know,
you don't get that same come down with psilocybin. You
don't come down. That's that's just because m d m
A works on the serotonin one receptor, which is the
same as your antidepressants, but for some reason, the depletion
(22:26):
of that is very suicide feeling, whereas the others are
dealing with a different serotonin receptor. Where you're you're not overwhelmed.
But also in terms of your depression, and you've done
a lot of things that have helped your mood. You've
lost a lot of weight, you stopped drinking for a
period of time, for a long period of time. So
as a depressive person, I mean, let's talk about that
(22:49):
a little bit, because when you're doing a lot, how
do you know which one is really hot? Because you
take supplements also, you take mood supplements. I mean, as
far as drinking goes, when a person is depressed, king
is like a wet blanket, right, Yeah, Drinking is kind
of a form of self medicating. The problem with with
it is that you self medicate, but then you're also
(23:11):
dealing with the effects of the medication. It's a little
bit like m d m A. So like, initially the
medication of alcohol feels really good, especially if you have
anxiety based depression, which I kind of do. And initially
it squelches your anxiety, so that feels really like relief.
But as you drink, you get rebound anxiety. So it
(23:35):
becomes kind of this vicious cycle where you're actually creating
anxiety and then putting it out and around five, you know,
for your cocktail, and so it's a little like eye drops.
You know, it gets the red out, but then the
red comes back stronger, you know. And also all alcohol
is technically a depressant. Now that's difficult to say because
(23:56):
when someone's feeling anxious. The feeling of alcohol is incredibly powerful.
It's very quick in terms of the way it gets
rid of anxiety. But as an experiment, Yeah, for me,
I found, like wow, when I stopped drinking, you know,
over the course of a week or something, I have
(24:17):
a different energy. I mean, first of all, like I
wake up super early, super clear. You feel your feelings
some more, definitely. So I'm not saying that you stop
drinking and suddenly you're you're happy. That's not it at all.
In fact, in some ways, you you become more sensitive
to your mood. So along with stopping drinking on kind
(24:38):
of a regular basis, I'll still drink on a special
occasion or something. But I looked into supplements and genetic
testing for depression. So I did that, and I found
that I have a variant in my in my DNA
that makes it difficult for me to get full late
and be twelve into my brain, which we were just
(24:59):
talking about, and be twelve and folate or absolutely necessary
to create serotonin, dopamine and all those newer transmitters. So
with the help of this psychiatrist, he put me on
like this Joseph supplements, But you're absolutely right. In fact,
I asked him, I said, how do I know which
of these like fifteen supplements you know, are doing what?
(25:22):
And is that the ketamine is it? That is it?
And he said it's synergistic. It's like each thing works
together and the whole is greater than the sum of
its parts. So you really kind of can answer the
question of what's doing what exactly right. Yeah, I think
that's how a lot of people feel about I guess
(25:42):
it doesn't really matter because if everything is feeling better
and you're thinking more clearly and you're sharp, like you
want to be in present and all of the things
that you care about, then who really cares what it is?
As long as you know. If it's a combination of things,
that's fine too. Okay, well, this sounds like a good
time to take a break. M You know, exercise helps
(26:03):
let's say ten percent. The supplements might help, the kenemine
might help twenty five, antidepressents help forty. You know, you're
kind of building using all those tools. So it's really
about finding your personal cocktail. Each person has to do
the work to find what's going to work for them. Yes,
and you can find good integrative psychiatrists sometimes who kind
(26:27):
of know shit, who know about like supplements and things
like that, like other functional ways to kind of add
to your Yes, It's like I wish I could tell
everybody how to go get these micro docing or how
to be part of a research study. But for instance,
I was in National, Tennessee shooting for my documentary and
(26:49):
one of these white rappers that I interviewed down there
had tons of mushrooms and just kept handing them out
to everybody. So it's like people are growing them, but
there's no real, like legitimate way to get them now,
so that's not helpful. But the kenemy therapy is available
to people, and I don't know how many states I know,
I think it's nationwide. It's legal because ketamine the big
barrier with ketamine as the price, I mean, ketamine itself
(27:12):
costs like nothing, but they charge like six hundred dollars
in infusion. Is totally inflated prices. So now is that
something that someone would go to their general care physician
and be like, hey, I would like to get ketamine infusion.
So they have to seek out a psychiatrist. What is
the protocol? You can basically go online and see where
(27:33):
in your city they offer ketamine infusion. But as I said,
be careful because a lot of them are an acesiologists,
that doesn't mean they can't give it. Like the one
I go to now, the practice is run by an
m casiologist, But I really like the nurse practitioner who
gives the ketamine, and so that's important. But yeah, you
(27:54):
you can just look online and see where it's offered
in your city, but it's not something that a g
P would necessarily give. And ideally, if you can, yeah,
I would always pick a psychiatrist who offers it over
over any other doctor. Have you ever tried ketamine? I
mean that's something that gay boys do in the gay clubs.
Did you know that? Yeah, I've I've snorted ketamine before
(28:16):
when you were gay? Well no, but I was with
a gay guy and he said, do you want to
try this? And I was said, sure, why not? And
I snorted it and I don't, I don't know, I
just didn't. I just felt really relaxed. It wasn't anything
that I wanted to snort. Again. There are things that
I would like to try, like what you're already kind
of coked up? In general, Brandon, You're kind of very
(28:39):
detailed or definitely don't mix adder all with cocaine. Do
not do that ever. Never drug tips one oh one. Yeah,
you're welcome everybody for this episode of Who Do You
Think You Are? So these are different modalities that are
used for treating depression beyond antidepression medicine. And you've got
(29:04):
like ketamine. They're doing like heavy research on psilocybins. Psilocybin
is mushrooms. Psilocybin is mushrooms, magic mushrooms, right, okay, And
then a katamine people used to call as a it
was a horse tranquilizer. It was it was actually an
anesthetic that was used in the Vietnam War because it
had such immediate effects on Vietnamese horses, Vietnamese soldiers at
(29:29):
US soldiers in Vietnam, and then it became used for
and that practices, and like a lot of things that
were therapeutic, they kind of went, oh, there's abuse potential,
so you know, it was just you know, used mainly
by that's at that point in terms of like there's
(29:49):
definitely a movement now where people are talking about drugs
in the sense of helping themselves and helping their psyches
heal from past trauma. But you know, there was obviously
a lot long era of people just using drugs recreationally
too well. Actually, psychedelics were being researched for actual mental
health benefits. And you know that's a whole history. I
(30:14):
don't know that the ins and ouncer, but let's put
it this way, like, it's interesting that the government shut
that down and instead said, hey, let's create opioids that
people can be kind that are synthetic. Yes, because that's
supported by a drug company or the alcohol industry, which
we know alcohol is tremendously toxic WOA. But in other words,
(30:38):
that's toxic, whereas psychedelics do not have a toxic kind
of a top limit, like there's very little evidence of
any kind of great harm compared to alcohol, for example.
But yet alcohol is legal and psychedelics, including magic mushrooms,
(30:59):
are elite. It's kind of like, what you know, I
wouldn't be surprised if in the next like, um, several years,
if that doesn't change, because yeah, I think it's gonna
because it's moving so fast. This movement is kind of
happening with such alacrity that there is no stopping in
and then the government realizes, oh, this is a perfect
example of like grassroots you know what I mean, activism
(31:20):
actually working because people are saying, no, we need this
to help people, and the government is kind of just
having to agree with it. And that's the same with
cannabis legalization, but that's across the country. But that said,
psilocybin is an incredibly powerful drug, so it's not like
cannabis where I think psilocybin you have to be incredibly
careful about because it is so powerful. So you need
(31:44):
to make sure you're in a safe environment, that you're
you don't do that by yourself, and that there are
other people around you who can save you. Because the
problem with psychedelic drugs, really powerful psychedelics is God forbid
you you have a break where you kind of decide
you want to jump off a balcony because you think
(32:05):
you can fly. Do you read about that though, like people,
because I read about people having psychological breaks. I've read
about that with ayahuasca and peyote, but not mushrooms. Pearty
is similar to mushrooms. I think what they say is
if you have schizophrend, you know, kind of an undiagnosed
kind of potential for that, which usually reveals itself right
(32:28):
at later in life. Yeah. But but in other words,
a psychedelic can trigger that, which is why I like
from what I've read, I would never do a psychedelic
completely by myself, ever, I think that there you know,
you need an ideally, you need to be around somebody
who isn't necessarily flying as high as you are. I mean,
(32:52):
it's interesting when you say, though about taking something when
you're somebody's personality is heightened or whatever feeling you're feeling
after your infusion, your catamine infusion, because it's like that
story about me giving Chunk melatonin, but he was in
such a heightened state of anxiety that giving that to
him only kept him there, and which my vet told
(33:12):
me when I came back, Oh, when somebody's in a
heightened state of anxiety, any pill you take like that
is just going to keep your personality there, which made
no sense to me. Well, there's two things. First of all,
I have no idea how melotonein his processed and dogs well,
And second of all, here's the big issue, Like with
my dog. My dog weighs thirteen pounds and my mom
(33:33):
feeds it like it's a human being who weighs a
hundred forty and then like wonders why she's fat. It's
like the weight of the dog requires sectually smaller dose.
So chances are if you gave Chunk like a human
dose of melatonin, that's like an overdose. Yeah, but his
doctor was prescribing him human xanex. So what human zanex is? Okay,
(33:54):
but in a tiny dose? Oh okay, Well it was
working for me. His zanex was work for me. Brandon,
If you could take one psychedelic trip, what would it
be with? Probably mushrooms, right, I would like you to
do mushrooms at my house. I'll leave. I'll have my
belt video camera with our old vhs. What would you leave?
I think you should be there. I just don't want
(34:16):
to deal with the drama, you know what I mean,
Like if he gets all out of whack or something,
that's probably decisions Like I don't want to deal with that.
You know. It's like people who's like first time, Like
I was over my friend's house this weekend and somebody said,
oh my gosh, I've never smoked pot, And I said, well,
then don't. I don't want to be here for that.
I remember we were at a party and someone like,
should I do some pot? But last time I fell
(34:37):
asleep and you were like, yes, I don't do it,
like we don't want to have to carry you think
of other people when you're thinking about doing these things. Yeah,
and you're also somebody that doesn't respond to marijuana, to cannabis. No,
I don't like marijuana because why First of all, I
find like, you know, my brain works on a level
(34:57):
of precision, that's just the way my brain response. And
I don't like the kind of vagueness of never knowing
what the doses, really what the mood is. And then finally,
probably most importantly, I just don't like the way I
feel the next day. So you got a pot hangover? Yeah,
I feel it in my system the next day. And
is it from all cannabis so inedible joint? I mean,
(35:19):
you know, we've had a few laughs, and the only
times where I've had positive experiences with cannabis have been
with Chelsea. But even that isn't consistent of and they're
not just so much fun that I kind of go,
it's worth the hangover and stuff. Yeah, I think you
remember you once saying you felt everything that you said
(35:40):
was so stupid. I remember, Yeah, there was that one
time where I felt like I was speaking and there's
part of me like judging myself speaking. God, that's dumb.
But that does happen. That can happen with cannabis, and
that's a matter of and I think the I think
the real thing to remind everybody about is when you
are having a drug experience, to set your attention and
even if it is recreational, to say I'm going to
(36:02):
be in a good mood, this is going to be
a fun experience. I'm not going to pick out if
that's your issue and it's my issue, so I have
to say that a lot to myself. But it is
about setting an attention, even and if it's in a
casual way. Yeah, but it's also I totally agree with you,
and I think it's also about like respecting your own
brain chemistry. Like I know people who will do cannabis
(36:23):
and it really relaxes them and makes them social and whatever.
My tendency with cannabis and like, I've had quite a
few experiences where it's made me paranoid and it hasn't
relaxed me. It's tensed me up and made me more anxious.
So I kind of just respect my own brain chemistry,
you know, individual. Yeah, I mean the thing is, I
(36:43):
think a lot of people don't know that much about
their own brain chemistry. You know, they know about their moods,
but they're not as educated as you are about your brainstry. Yeah,
but I think again, because a lot of this stuff
is still, you know, new, even for scientists. I mean
only like psychedelics, they've been shut down for the last
(37:04):
what fifty years. It's only now that we're re researching them.
You can be aware of your own state of mind.
For a while, I was keeping, you know, a journal
where I literally would write down what what even I
had eaten, because I knew that even what I ate
could affect my mood suppart of it. You know, once
(37:25):
I decided to stop drinking, I just became very aware
of the tiniest differences of what ingesting different things could do.
And for me, as someone who suffers some depression, that
was empowering. Do you feel like you've had any depression
in the last six months? No, I haven't had I
(37:48):
haven't had clinical depression since I've been on antidepressants, but
I've definitely become happier since I took these additional steps,
because that's what the different to this. I feel like
now having known you for about three years, and when
you use the word manage, that's often the way you
(38:08):
hear people discuss their depression is that it's being managed,
but they're not any happier, and they should be that
they don't feel better, they just feel okay. Well, the thing,
you're absolutely right, But what I was gonna say is
you over the last year, I would say, seem happier,
Like this seems like an increase in your joy. I mean,
(38:28):
I definitely feel that way. But I think you're you're
hitting on something that's really important, which also touches upon
what's the difference between depression and sadness. You know, sadness
is generally triggered by something, you know, an event situation,
where suppression is different depression, it's just a vague or
(38:50):
sense of like not wanting to do anything, a sadness
that kind of permeates everything and isn't necessarily event specific.
So an antidepressant manages to get you out of that hole,
but it doesn't necessarily get you kind of you know,
flying high and happy. It just has lifted you from
(39:13):
the whole, which is depression. I find some of these
other modalities actually lift you higher. For me, Okay, we're
gonna take a quick break and we'll be right back.
You were saying, even just the inclination to want to
go out, to start to wonder what your friends are doing,
or want to be social is a sign that your
(39:34):
depression is lifting. You're absolutely right. One of the things
that I would say characterizes depression is a diminishment in desire,
so your desire. So it's like when you have no
sex drive applied back to the rest of your life exactly,
I don't have a desire to hang out with friends.
I don't have a desire to have sex. I don't
(39:54):
have a desire to go out to a cocktail party
or anything. And the deeper depression, the more squelch and
diminish your desire is for everything. So on one level,
you're getting out of that hole. And one of the ways,
like I have a friend who just started antidepressants like
(40:17):
a week ago, and she was I was like, are
you feeling them yet? She's like, no, I'm not really
feeling them, And then she went on to tell me
like she was feeling like a little bit sad that
she had isolated herself for a while and she missed
kind of her friends. I said, then it's working because
that's your desire coming back. You're actually the first the
(40:38):
first moments are you kind of going, oh my gosh,
I've isolated myself and I don't want to be isolated.
So that's the way people can kind of make sure
that they're dealing with depression. If if you're feeling your
desire to do everything is down, you should see a
medical professional. It's also helpful to have someone in your
(40:59):
life that is going through it because it gives me
a lot more understanding of depression since it's not something
Now you definitely don't suffer from it. I'm kind of
always in awe of your denial. Now you're anti depressed,
like whatever or in your whatever chemicals are in your brain.
I mean, you are definitely functioning at a level of
(41:21):
anti depressive. What about you, Brendan, have you ever felt depressed?
Only one time? And I and when I got my period, Yes,
because you wanted the baby. Every time it was seasonal depression.
I would say it was just my last year in
South Dakota, and I just could not get myself. I
was still on his track scholarship, I wasn't going to practice.
I didn't want to do anything. And so the way
(41:42):
you're describing your lack of desire, one of my favorite
things to do is eat. Like I didn't want to eat,
I didn't want to do engage. I wanted to be alone.
And that was the only time I can remember now
looking back in retrospect, to me like that was depression,
Like that wasn't just a sad or a mood. That
was an inability to be happy. That's absolutely And what
(42:02):
do you think that was triggered by. I think there
were a lot of things, but I think it was
being in that state at that time with just the
doom and gloom, not being out of the closet yet
and knowing that that was that hurdle was about to
be jumped. But also seasonal as you're mentioning, like you know,
but not being out of the closet and knowing that's coming.
I think it was a culmination of things, but just
(42:24):
being in that season and a lot of people say
that though like you talk to people like I love Seattle.
I love the overcast and the gray, but people like
but living in it is different than experiencing it for
a week. It really can have an effect on your
mood and who you are well. Light therapy definitely helps
for people who have seasonal depression, you know, during winter months,
especially like you said, in in parts of the country
(42:47):
or the world where you don't see a lot of
sunlight that can definitely also trigger depression, and light therapy
works with that. You know, there are other things as well,
like there's magnetic therapy where they use super powerful magnets
has also shown some results. I think my philosophy is,
(43:08):
you know, research this stuff. You know that I love
researching stuff, which usually you just call me and I
don't have the patients to google ship, so whenever I
have a question, I just text Alec what's up with
and then I get a page JOSSI a back. Usually
just call and tell you what's actionable and whatever you've
(43:29):
asked me to research. But um, but yeah, there are
definitely things you can do. But I think awareness of
when you're depressed is one of the first. But to
be also compassionate and empathetic towards other people when you
don't suffer from depression because my instinct is it always
to get up and move on. You know, well, that's
one of the worst things people can say to someone
(43:49):
who's depressed is snap out of it, you know that,
or you should just go out more. You need to
put yourself in an environment where you're on happy people.
And it's like, you don't understand that's completely not within
the realm of possibility. So yeah, one of the things
about compassion and empathy is understanding that you know, they
(44:11):
can't snap out of it, and going out to a
group event isn't going to work either. I think what
you're saying works the most is creating new habits that
are helping and aiding your state of mind. So instead
of having bad habits, you know, we rehbituate ourselves, which
is much easier than any of us think, because you
really can, in like three to five days, just start
(44:32):
doing something every day and then it does become part
of your habit and then you're helping your brain and
you're on your own show. Right Like you know, if
you're drinking, try reducing your drinking. There's no harm in
trying to take a B twelve and foe late supplement.
There are supplements like metal Guard that you can get
on Amazon or anywhere, So there's no harm in kind
(44:52):
of trying to increase your B twelve and folate. There's
no harm in adding an A C which is another
supplement that can really help with negative O C D thinking.
In fact, psychiatrists are saying any C as a supplement
is having more powerful effects for O C D thinking
negative thinking than any prescription they have. So there are
(45:14):
these things you can do, and like you said, you know,
taking those little steps can help. Well. I think a
lot of the concerns for people as well are the
side effects. So are there, to your knowledge, side effects
associated with ketamine and antidepressants. Antidepressants definitely have side effects,
and I think that's one of the big reasons some
people want to avoid them, and it's also one of
(45:36):
the reasons why with antidepressants it can be so hit
or miss, like people sometimes need to try several antidepressants
before they find one that doesn't have the side effects
that make them want to stop it. Ketamine doesn't have
any specific lists of side effects. You can't drive right
(45:57):
afterwards because your sense of balance and whatever is really
thrown and during Yes, you cannot roller blade, which is
usually how I get to and from appointments. But I
think that with ketamine, you know, ketamine infusion is just
to be clear, you do go on a trip like
it's psychoactive. Well, you said, okay, the last time you
(46:18):
did it, you said you felt like you were in
a matrix right in some sort of underworld or underground.
I felt like it was giving me glimpses of the universe,
of of like a deeper understanding of the universe. And
while I was in it, I could understand it. And
as I was coming out of it, I knew that
I wouldn't be able to describe it, like words were
(46:42):
not going to do it justice. And sure enough, as
I was returning back, I felt that ability to discuss
it went away. But you're aware of it, like weirdly
in ketamine, I'm aware that I'm on ketamine while I'm
going through this journey me and I choose to use
(47:03):
music while I do it, and that music can oftentimes
dictate where I'm going and what I'm experiencing. It's kind
of cool if you kind of are prepared for it
and you don't freak out by it. Brendan, you were
talking about ketamine as an anti pain thing for fibro mayalga.
That's it's also being used as that, but it's used
(47:24):
in much higher doses and for much longer so a
lot of times for fibro myalgia, you don't necessarily go
on what I call a trip. You're just kind of
out of it because they do sometimes give you tranquilizers
and anti nausea medicine for fibro mayalgia and ketamine, but
during depression treatment, oftentimes it's about the practitioner finding that
(47:45):
perfect dose for you so that you're not overwhelmed, but
you're definitely disassociating from your real life. It's kind of cool. Yeah,
I mean I feel like I should do it. Don't
you think I should do There have been several times
where you've actually during my trip where I've gone, wow,
I wish Chelsea was Yeah, I think I should try it.
(48:07):
You want to try it with me, Brandon, We can
report back when we do our ayahuasca review with Dan
and Jenny or ayahuasca. I think you should definitely do it,
but again, I can't stress enough going to the right place.
I'll go with you to your place. We can go together. Yeah,
then we can stumble out of there together. I would
go up to speak to you after. Yeah. No, that's
(48:27):
funny that you say that because you texted me. You're like, oh,
I love you so much. I can't wait to tell
you all about this. And then you're like, please call
me right away, and I called you You're like, i'll
talk to you tomorrow. It's true that I kind of
like was like, oh my god, I have so much
to say. But yeah, then I was like, I think
I'm just gonna like hold it in. It's also kind
of bizarre what you're saying, because I mean, you know,
(48:48):
you're going like, yeah, I kind of feel like I
got a glimpse of the universe. I know it does
feel bizarre, but you know when you're saying, well, it does,
of course that feel stupid. But okay, so I've added
more stand updates. Everybody, you can come see me perform.
Let me think. At first, I want to say very
(49:09):
very heartfelt thank you too. Not Dr al kashi Chian
thank you. He's not a medical professional, and he's just
one of my very very friends who's pretty much the
smartest person I know. I'm coming to Brisbane. I'm coming
to Sydney. I'm coming to Melbourne, Auckland, New Zealand. I'm
coming to Pittsburgh, Cleveland, Grand Rapids, Vancouver, Indianapolis, Milwaukee, Salt
(49:34):
Lake City, Kansas City, Oklahoma City, which is a place
I've never performed before, and Toronto show. We are adding
another show so you can come see me on My
Life will be the Death of Me Stand up Comedy
Tour Brandon. People want to know how they can get
a hold of you. They can't, but they can go
to your accountable page if they want to look up
any social issues or any organizations. I have a lot
(49:57):
of suggestions of ways you can get involved on my
accountable dot you page. And after that you should check
out Emily's List for any female candidates. Yes, Emily's List
is a great organization that I partnered with that help
elect progressive women for the Democratic Party. And the book
is called Life Will Be the Death of Me and
my name is Tracy Joy Handler. Goodnight, Life will Be
(50:22):
the Death of Me as a production of I Heart Radio.
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