Choose the Bigger Life with Gretchen Rubin

Happiness expert Gretchen Rubin joins Chelsea to talk about the impact of both novelty and repetition on the human brain, what she learned by visiting the Met on a daily basis, and how using your five senses can help improve mindfulness… and your life. Then: An ex-mormon flirts with psychedelics. A teacher considers trading in her life for a new one.  And a small-town girl wonders if her May-December relationship has been a fetish all along. 

 

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Get your copy of A Life in Five Senses here

Neglected Senses Quiz

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Need some advice from Chelsea? Email us at [e-mail]

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Executive Producer Catherine Law

Edited & Engineered by Brad Dickert

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hi Catherine, Hi Chelsea, how are you. Oh well, I'm
in Sunny Whistler.

Speaker 2 (00:05):
It's very sunny, sunny, sunny, sunny up here, a little
too sunny. The snow is melting and it's sticky, sticky snow.
And I'm officially a daycare runner opener starter. There are
children everywhere I go. They are at my house, they
live with me, not just my two buddhas, but more
children have appeared, and the dogs are attracting more and

(00:27):
more people. So my life is just turned into Yesterday,
one of my little friends came by to ask for
money because she was going to get ice cream and
realized she didn't have any, so she said, we know
Chelsea has money.

Speaker 1 (00:38):
That's what she said.

Speaker 2 (00:41):
And I said, okay, how much do you need and
she said a dollar and all I had was a twenty.

Speaker 3 (00:45):
So I mean, hey, what does ice cream cost these days?

Speaker 1 (00:48):
I know?

Speaker 2 (00:48):
And she's like, do you need the change? And I
was like, it's really up to you, I guess. And
Doug is with his new dog walker today. We got
evicted from his last class because he was getting too confident,
and apparently Doug is going through adeless and some puberty
as an eleventh month old chow.

Speaker 1 (01:03):
So he is a fucking nightmare.

Speaker 3 (01:05):
Is there a little marking happening?

Speaker 2 (01:07):
No, not marking, but he just well, I've had my
rugs cleaned steam cleaned here twice, which smells worse than
actual diarrhea. So I don't know what the point of
that is. And then I take he knows his command.
Yesterday I went for a walk to the golf course,
which because it was covered in snow. I can only
see a golf course if it's covered in snow. Otherwise
it just annoys me so much. And we were so

(01:29):
good with our commands. Come Come, Come, dog Come, and
then all of a sudden, he just fucking forgot, and
so I'm just screaming come, and no one's coming. It's
so pathetic. And I have my treats and everything. So anyway,
I have a new dog walker this week. Hopefully she
can whip him into shape. She's got him Tuesday through Friday,
I was like, get his ass on track, because I
have a whole waiting list of people who want Doug.

Speaker 1 (01:50):
I was gone for seven days before last week on.

Speaker 2 (01:53):
The road and do it touring, and then I went
to the Oscar parties and then I don't know what
else I did.

Speaker 1 (01:58):
Oh, I went to Deer Valley to ski with my friends.

Speaker 2 (02:00):
There, and I came back and and my friends they
had passed Doug around like a party treat. And when
he went from one house to another house like a
little dime store.

Speaker 3 (02:08):
Whose that's a flusy.

Speaker 2 (02:10):
He is a fluosy, And so it was a Bernice.
Quite frankly, the kids either want Doug or Bernice. Yeah,
and now I call them Dirk and Dennis. Those are
their cameo names or OnlyFans names.

Speaker 3 (02:21):
I guess, well, you're a true mother, just like calling
them all by the wrong names. That's yeah, that's how Yeah.

Speaker 1 (02:26):
Yeah, yeah. So this has been a stressful winter.

Speaker 2 (02:29):
I'm not gonna lie between my fucking house and the
bullshit that's going on.

Speaker 1 (02:33):
It is a disaster.

Speaker 2 (02:35):
And I just am waiting in Whistler until it calms
down so I can go home because I have been
so violated and I feel like I have been robbed.

Speaker 3 (02:44):
Yeah, it's past the point of like, oh yeah, just
a little longer. I mean, when we're going on three years,
there's something else.

Speaker 2 (02:51):
It's three years. I've owned this house for three years,
and it's still not ready.

Speaker 3 (02:54):
Yep. Well, I'm glad you have somewhere else to be
that is beautiful and fun. And I'm glad you got
to take a break from skiing to go skiing somewhere else.

Speaker 2 (03:02):
Also, I know that was really fun. I love Dear Valley,
I love skiing there, and I just love skiing. I mean,
thank god I have skiing in my life. It is
just such a gift. It is such a gift to
find out what you're passionate about and get it, get
after it because it gives me so much joy.

Speaker 3 (03:16):
I love that it is. That is kind of half
the battle, is finding what you're passionate about, like finding
what you really really dig you know.

Speaker 2 (03:23):
Yeah, Like if I can just smoke weed. Oh I
can't smoke it all the time because in my throat.
But if I could just eat cannabis, mushrooms, whatever drugs
come my way, read books, and ski for like three
months straight, I mean, I honestly would be the happiest
person on the planet.

Speaker 3 (03:40):
Maybe, especially if there were no children involved.

Speaker 1 (03:42):
Well, the children are a nice addition because they're not mine.

Speaker 2 (03:45):
But it's gotten a little good carried away, Like I
found myself at the kiddie table the other night.

Speaker 1 (03:49):
I'm like, what's happening here? I had a thirteen picture?

Speaker 3 (03:53):
You posed it?

Speaker 2 (03:54):
I know, and everywhere I go they come with me,
and I treat them like little adults. So I think
they really like that because I can't explain I'm not
being nice to them.

Speaker 3 (04:03):
Yeah, what do they call you? Auntie? Chelsea?

Speaker 2 (04:05):
No, they call me cheuse auntie. I'm not there, auntie.
Even my nieces, Oh, this is funny. I'm taking my
nieces and nephews to my York. I said only a
kid's trip for this this summer. I said, only a
kid's trip, no adults allowed. And so then my brother
emails me yesterday and was like, uh, you know, Teddy's
fourteen and he needs an adult to travel with him,

(04:27):
which means his wife doesn't trust me alone with the
children and the children's I want to repeat that the children's,
nor should she. And so he's like, so I have
to come. I'm like, oh, so you're coming. So then
my other brother lays like, well, if Glenn's coming, I'm coming,
and I'm like, this.

Speaker 1 (04:42):
Is exactly the dynamic I was hoping for. No spouses,
the kids, my brother.

Speaker 3 (04:47):
There you go, then it's a party.

Speaker 1 (04:50):
Now, it's going to be so much fun. Yeah.

Speaker 3 (04:51):
I mean, if you only have people who are underage,
who's going to take all your drugs this year?

Speaker 1 (04:55):
I don't know.

Speaker 2 (04:56):
I'll have to find some new customers.

Speaker 1 (04:58):
Oh, you know what we need, We need people to
right in.

Speaker 2 (05:00):
We don't want to cover the same kinds of topics
each episode, so I guess we want to get into
different kind of categories of problems or questions that you
might want help with.

Speaker 3 (05:11):
Yeah, like if you haven't heard it on this show, Like,
if you haven't heard your question, this is your sign
to write in.

Speaker 2 (05:19):
All interpersonal affairs are of interest. All interpersonal affairs if
you're having an affair, if you are having a problem
with a loved one, a partner. I still think we
should do a couple's counseling episode. I want couples together
to come in sure for an issue or overall counseling.
That would be fun. We're going to do a nice

(05:39):
counseling session between my three girlfriends who visited us, right
Amina and Marie and Sydney.

Speaker 3 (05:47):
So we'll get our counseling on. Definitely couples right in.

Speaker 2 (05:51):
And I also think if you have like a problem
with a friend and you guys want to come on together,
That's a great, great thing for us to do. If
there's any you know, if you want to come on
with your mom I'm or your sister or your brother
or anything like that and you want to like hash
out an issue, I think this is a good place
to do that.

Speaker 3 (06:07):
Yeah. And the more specific the question, the better I
think too.

Speaker 1 (06:10):
Yes.

Speaker 3 (06:11):
Yeah, right into Dear Chelsea podcast at gmail dot com. Chelsea,
I do have a couple of updates. Brenna wrote in
after listening to our episode last year with Katie Couric,
and she says, Dear Chelsea, I was listening to that
episode the morning it came out, and I was ready
for work. As Katie spoke about her cancer diagnosis and

(06:33):
the importance of checking yourself for lumps, I thought to myself, Hey,
I haven't felt myself for lumps in a pretty long time.
While I reached down, and to my horror, I actually
did feel a lump in my left breast. My heart stopped.
Within a week of listening to that episode, I had
gone to the doctor, received an ultrasound on my breast,
had two mammograms and a biopsy taken. I'm thirty two

(06:54):
years old. I've never had a mammogram in my life,
and of course, like forty is kind of when you
start getting those, so she wouldn't have otherwise gone. I've
never had a mammogram in my life and no history
of breast cancer in my family, and I was terrified. Luckily,
the biopsy came back benine, but it was larger than
they thought it should be, so in June I went
back so it could be easily removed. Once it was

(07:15):
taken out, they were able to test it and confirmed
that the lump and I were both cancer free and
I could go back to not having another mammogram until forty.
I wanted to thank you for raising awareness about this.
I've known my whole life that I'm supposed to check
myself regularly, but that is advice I rarely follow. Without
listening to your episode, who knows when I would have
actually felt the lump. I also want to thank you

(07:36):
for giving me that push to start therapy a few
years ago and for normalizing it. I look forward to
seeing you on tour this year. Brenna.

Speaker 2 (07:44):
Wonderful, wonderful, wonderful breast. I know I need to do
more breast self examinations. Also, now that I'm hearing.

Speaker 3 (07:51):
That figure supposed to do it the week after year period,
I think that's like the key time.

Speaker 2 (07:57):
Yeah, but I got an ablacion, so I don't know
when my period. I thought my boobs were getting smaller,
and I was like liking them.

Speaker 1 (08:03):
I'm like, oh, they're a.

Speaker 2 (08:03):
Little bit like purchas souayant, less perky, like a little
bit like yeah, And I was like, oh, oh, I
guess I'm you know, forty nine. Maybe they're just kind
of dropping a little bit.

Speaker 1 (08:13):
But then I.

Speaker 2 (08:14):
Got I don't know what I'm getting my period because
of that Ablasian And then they blew up. When I
went to the Oscar parties my dress, my boobs were
like it was like gargantuan, and I couldn't believe it.
I was like, oh my god, where did these come from?
So I must be on my period, but they still
haven't completely deflated. Yeah, so you're supposed to check a
week after your period.

Speaker 3 (08:34):
Yes, I believe that's correct.

Speaker 1 (08:36):
So big. I don't even know if I would feel
a lump.

Speaker 3 (08:39):
I think maybe there's less swelling or whatever, so it's
easier to find any lumps or bumps.

Speaker 1 (08:44):
Yeah, when they get little.

Speaker 3 (08:45):
Okay, Yeah, I was going to ask your ablasian. You
went through with that and everything's been fine. Have you
had less period?

Speaker 2 (08:51):
I've never had a period since I got Yeah, my
uterus scorched. My sister got it done and then told
me about it, and I was like, I didn't know
you could get that, and so so I went right
away and was like, scorch it.

Speaker 1 (09:02):
Let's go.

Speaker 2 (09:03):
I don't want any more uterine. I guess it gets
rid of your uterine lining. Yeah. Yeah, so that you
can't bleed anymore.

Speaker 1 (09:08):
And believe me, I mean it was the best thing.

Speaker 2 (09:10):
I don't get a period, and every once in a
while I feel my PMS, but not every month.

Speaker 1 (09:15):
It's like every few months.

Speaker 3 (09:16):
That's incredible.

Speaker 2 (09:17):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (09:18):
And then you can go and like wear address to
an Oscar's party and you only have the symptom of
having big boobs, like no other period symptoms. No.

Speaker 1 (09:25):
I mean, I don't know.

Speaker 2 (09:26):
Maybe I'm bitchier, but I wouldn't be able to tell
the difference.

Speaker 3 (09:29):
How were the Oscar parties?

Speaker 2 (09:31):
Oh? Fun, fun. I went to the Vanity Fair party
and then I went to a Gaio series party, and
yeah it was good. I was hume By two nothing crazy.
And then I went to Deer Valley the next morning.

Speaker 3 (09:41):
Oh fantastic, just like an easy pop by.

Speaker 2 (09:44):
Yeah, saw a lot of friends, saw a lot of people.

Speaker 3 (09:46):
It was fun, good, good.

Speaker 2 (09:48):
Our guest today is Happiness Expert, six time best selling
author and host of the popular Happier with Gretchen Rubin podcast.
Her most recent New York Times bestseller, Life and Five Cents.
This comes out in paperback April thirtieth. Please welcome to
the podcast, Gretchen Rubin.

Speaker 4 (10:06):
Hey, Chelsey, I'm so happy to be talking to you.

Speaker 2 (10:08):
Oh, nice to be talking to you. So this book
was interesting because you discussed the difficulty that you found
in forming a meditation practice, and I think that's very
common for many of our listeners. A lot of people
are struggling with how to meditate.

Speaker 5 (10:24):
The thing that I found about the five senses which
surprised me, is it's for practically anything you want to
do to be happier or healthier, or more productive or
more creative, we can use our five senses. It's like
the Swiss army knife. If you want to calm down,
you can use your five senses. If you want to
pump up, you can use your five senses. If you
want to connect with the moment, if you want to
revisit the past, if you want to connect with other people,

(10:46):
if you want to calm down, if you want to
be creative, you want to just like you, grind it out.
All of these things can be done with the five senses.
So it was just this thing. It was kind of
a perspective I had never tapped into. And then I
found all of these great exercises and approaches that were,
you know, right at the you know, the tip of
my nose, right at hand.

Speaker 4 (11:08):
I did a huge amount of research.

Speaker 5 (11:09):
I'm just like the kind of person who always runs
to the library. The only way I can get out
of my head is sort of throw a book, and
so so part of the fun of it was finding
things to try. For instance, heinz Ketchup, like we've all
had heinz ketch up. And then what I learned is
heinz ketch up. Probably the reason that is so popular
and is like the secret ingredient in so many popular
foods is that it's one of the extremely rare flavors

(11:32):
that's sweet, sour, bitter, salty, and umami. It's all five
and one. That is hard to do, and so it's
just fun to learn something like that and then go
taste it and then you're like, heinz, ketchup is amazing.

Speaker 4 (11:45):
It's so complex, it's so rich, but who knew.

Speaker 5 (11:48):
So yeah, So part of the fun for me was
discovering all these aspects of the world that I had
just I was so stuck up in my head that
I didn't pay attention to them.

Speaker 2 (11:56):
Okay, I just want to go on the record and
say that I fucking hate ketchup. So what does that
say about me? I'm one of the only people I
know that does not I don't like the smell, I
don't like the taste, I don't like the texture. I
don't like any of it.

Speaker 5 (12:06):
Well, then that's that's a good thing to know about yourself.
And that's another thing that really surprised me about the
five senses is how we all live in very different
sensory worlds. Like a lot of people might say, well,
of course ketchup taste good, or of course ketchup enhances flavor,
but you're saying that is not my experience.

Speaker 4 (12:22):
I don't like it. Same thing with the textures.

Speaker 5 (12:26):
You know, just I thought that everybody liked sort of
silky textures. I thought they were sort of almost like
by definition, a good feeling. But turns out a lot
of people detest kind of a silky satiny feeling. It
almost like gives them the creeps. Where do you weigh
in on the silkiness question?

Speaker 4 (12:41):
Kind of mind?

Speaker 2 (12:41):
I like silky, I like that you like, yeah, that's fine.

Speaker 4 (12:44):
I don't feel about the candy corn. That's another candy corn. Okay.

Speaker 2 (12:50):
Yeah, there's a lot of things that I have a
violet reaction to. I wonder do you not like sweet
things I like? I like gummy bears and Twizzlers, those
are my favorite items. And twig spars those are good.

Speaker 4 (13:00):
To Okay, okay, so you do like some sweet.

Speaker 2 (13:02):
Things, but I'm not a normal Yeah, I don't subscribe
to a lot of things that people find like staples.
I'm like, I also have an aversion to water. I
find that to be very boring and unsatisfying. So and
I really am annoyed that people are constantly trying to
force me to drink it.

Speaker 1 (13:18):
Yeah, okay, so.

Speaker 2 (13:19):
Let's talk about how the senses though, how focusing on
those and harnessing your relationship with your senses actually is
an act of mindfulness.

Speaker 4 (13:28):
Right.

Speaker 5 (13:28):
Well, as you said, like I've tried meditating, I've given it, solitarize.

Speaker 4 (13:31):
I even did a silent meditation retreat. Did not work
for me.

Speaker 5 (13:34):
But the great thing about the sense is is like
if what you want is to cultivate mindfulness, like that
is the way we experience the senses, Like you're experiencing
it right here right now. You can't book market, you
can't come back to it later.

Speaker 4 (13:46):
It's always going to be new.

Speaker 5 (13:47):
And for a lot of our senses, you can't even
keep experiencing it over and over. For instance, smell, right,
even if you love a smell, if you keep sniffing
and sniffing, it just fades away because that's the way
you know, smell is a difference detector. So once something
is not changing, we can't smell it anymore. And so
turning into your five senses is a great way to
cultivate mindfulness. And of course there is a kind of

(14:09):
a mindfulness technique called five four three two one.

Speaker 2 (14:12):
Well, let's talk about five four three two one.

Speaker 5 (14:15):
Well, I don't really meditate, so I don't use it
a lot of people find it very helpful, Like, there
are five things that you see, do.

Speaker 4 (14:20):
You do this one? Is this one?

Speaker 6 (14:21):
No?

Speaker 2 (14:22):
I don't know.

Speaker 5 (14:22):
I don't know this either, So it's five things you see,
four things you hear, et cetera.

Speaker 3 (14:27):
So what was it about meditation that was so tricky
for you?

Speaker 5 (14:32):
Yeah, I mean whatever other benefit people were getting, I
was not getting. And one of the things I've really
come to believe is that no tool fits every hand,
and that whenever somebody says this is the best way
or this is the right way to improve your habits
or to make yourself happier, it's like, well, maybe that
works really well for you, and maybe that works really
well for a lot of people. But if it doesn't
work for me, let me try something else. And there's

(14:54):
no need to just sort of persist in something because
everybody tells you it's the right thing to do if
it doesn't work for you. So I keep trying it
because of all these friends who are like, oh, it's
so you know, you have to try it again. And
of course people tell me that the very fact that
I don't benefit from meditation means that I needed all
the more. But I'm like, there's other things that feel
more productive and more entasting to me. So let me

(15:17):
spend my time and energy on those things. But I'll
probably try it again.

Speaker 3 (15:20):
Yeah, I do think it's so interesting because meditation quote
unquote wasn't a good fit for you, and yet you
wound up writing a book about the five senses and
like achieving my mindfulness kind of that way. And then also,
gratitude journal wasn't something that you really connected with, and
yet you have like your happiness journal, the one sentence
a day is sort of happiness journal, and that for
me it feels very similar and feels like your gets

(15:43):
way into those things.

Speaker 4 (15:44):
No exactly, and that's a great point.

Speaker 5 (15:46):
It's that there we can all achieve the same aim,
but we might find different ways to achieve it. So
I was deeply annoyed by a gratitude journal, but a
one sentence journal did the same thing for me, but
in a way that felt right for me. For all
of us, there's no one right way to go about
these things. That's really figuring out what what do I
want and what's the right way for me? Because if

(16:08):
you don't like candy corns, candy corns aren't going to
make you happier, even if somebody else is like the
highlight of my ears when the candy corns come out,
you know, it's like, Okay, well people are different.

Speaker 2 (16:19):
So can you talk a little about what you did
discover works for you with regard to your five senses?

Speaker 4 (16:24):
Oh yeah, so many things.

Speaker 5 (16:26):
One thing that I did was that I started I
was going to do it for a year and I've
done it ever since. Butch As, I go to the
Metropolitan Museum every day. I'm so fortunate I live within
walking distance of the met and I go every every
single day.

Speaker 4 (16:38):
I'm very interested in sort of repetition.

Speaker 5 (16:40):
I think a lot of people wouldn't like to do
the same thing over and over, but I love it.

Speaker 4 (16:44):
So that's a big thing that I did.

Speaker 5 (16:46):
Another thing that I did, and Chelsea, I'll ask you this,
when you really need to focus, what sound environment works
for you? Silence, music with words, music without words, same
song over and over for eight hours. It's cacophony like
a train station or busy coffee shop, like busy home.

Speaker 4 (17:05):
What works for you when you really want to focus?

Speaker 2 (17:07):
I would say I err on the side of complete silence,
but I am also able to focus, and this is
because of the hours of like I've put into meditation,
I've definitely noticed a major uptick in my ability to
focus within chaos. So if I am at a coffee
shop or if I am on a plane, I can
also harness the same kind of focus. My desire is

(17:29):
to have quiet, but if there's music on or if
there's talking, I can also go in and just and
just focus. So that's not something that I was able
to do for a very long time. I was very
easily distracted. Now the distractions are more you know, your phone,
social media. You know, you hear a thing on your phone,
You're like, oh, let me go. So I've just I've

(17:49):
picked up habits where I leave my phone, you know,
in a place where I'm not going to access it.
You yes, and but yes, I have been able. I'm
able to harness my focus in most environments. Yes, but
I would prefer silence, yeah.

Speaker 4 (18:02):
Yeah, and the same way.

Speaker 5 (18:03):
Well, speaking of smartphone, like, one of the things I
looked at is how can I use my five senses
to help me disengage with my phone when I want to.
So one of the things you mentioned, the classic, which
is just put it somewhere out of the way so
you can't get your hands on it.

Speaker 4 (18:15):
That works.

Speaker 5 (18:16):
Another one is to turn off notifications because they're so distracting.
My phone is on silent all the time and so
and I don't understand how people can deal with just
like these random beeps. I find it immensely distracting. And
here's another thing that a lot of people don't know about,
which is you can turn your phone to grayscale, so
that it's only in black, white, and gray. It's like

(18:38):
your grandparents' TV set instead of in full rich color.
And it's much harder to use your phone. It's like,
actually more difficult to use it. And of course it's
much less interesting when like all the photographs are in
black and white and all the beautiful colors are gone,
and then your phone isn't engaging in your senses the
way it's trying to do. It's of course, it's cleverly

(18:59):
engine by the most brilliant people to try to hook
you in every second, so we can use.

Speaker 4 (19:05):
Our senses to foil that as well.

Speaker 2 (19:08):
Okay, so how do you use your five senses to
ground yourself more in the present moment?

Speaker 5 (19:12):
Well, of course, the five senses are just a great
way to be present in the moment because we have
to think about like what am I seeing, what am
I hearing? What am I smelling? And one of the
things I found is that a lot of us have
a neglected sense, like there's there are certain senses that
we really we really appreciate, and so we're wanting to
have adventures with that sense. We turn to it for

(19:34):
comfort and pleasure, We use it to engage with other people,
we want to learn about it, we want to you know,
we're really appreciating it. But then there are the neglected
senses where there are ones where we aren't using it
for mindfulness and we aren't paying attention to it. Maybe
we're only paying attention to it when we're annoyed or
irritated or we want to avoid the downside of it.
And so it's great to know you're a neglected sense

(19:55):
because that's where we have a lot of low hanging
through That's that's something that you can turn into and say, well,
how could I have adventures or how could I connect
with other people, or how could I get more comfort
and pleasure out of it? So I actually created a
quiz where you can you know on my website where
you can find out what is your neglected sense and
then from that figure.

Speaker 4 (20:14):
Out how you could tap into it to be happier.

Speaker 2 (20:17):
And what about people who are struggling to maintain a
level of happiness or constantly thinking about like the next
negative thing that could happen, like they can't sit comfortably
in their happiness.

Speaker 5 (20:30):
Yeah, there's a very persistent belief that if we rehearse
disaster or unhappiness will somehow offset it. So I think
for some people there's only almost like a feeling of
magic that if I think about it a lot, somehow
it won't happen, which, of course that doesn't work like that,
And so I think for people who face that challenge,
it can be very helpful to say, Okay, well let

(20:51):
me just take a breath, let me just look around,
really look at the sky, really hear what I'm hearing,
really smell. I live in New York Cities, so it's
very smelly. And I finally just like walking down the
street and like, what actually am I smelling? Like maybe
I'm walking by a hair salun so I'm smelling that
hair salon smell, or I'm walking by a hardware store.
The hardware store smell is one of my very favorite

(21:13):
smells in the world, and so just taking a moment
to dial into your body like that a lot of
times can help people manage that anxiety about you know,
what's going to unfold in the future.

Speaker 3 (21:24):
Going back to what you said about going to the
mat every day, you talk a little bit about the
difference between something that you're experiencing with a lot of
repetition and sort of noticing the nuance when you see
the same thing all the time. Can you talk a
little bit about what you learned about repetition versus novelty
and how it affects different people.

Speaker 4 (21:44):
This is fascinating.

Speaker 5 (21:45):
What the research shows is that people who do novel
things tend to be happier, even things as kind of
elemental as going to a new restaurant for dinner, going
to a different neighborhood.

Speaker 4 (21:54):
So there's definitely a huge role for novelty and happiness.

Speaker 5 (21:58):
But I also think that you can't overlook the pleasures
of repetition, and I think people are really different. I
think some people really love repetition and familiarity and other
people are There's sort of like, if you could do
anything every day, why would you waste it going to
the same place over and over.

Speaker 4 (22:11):
It seems like a wasted opportunity.

Speaker 5 (22:13):
But I've always been really fascinated by how things change
very gradually over time and doing something over and over.
And I assume that I was very idiosyncratic about that,
But ever since the book came out, I've heard from
a ton of people where they do exactly the same
walk with their dog every day and they enjoy seeing
like how this one tree changes over time, or they'll
go to a river and take a picture at sunset

(22:35):
every night, and like they like doing it over and
over and over again. So I think it is something
where people are different. But what I found is things
change much more.

Speaker 4 (22:43):
Than I thought.

Speaker 5 (22:44):
Like I went into it thinking like, oh, you know,
this is basically going to be the same every day,
but there's so much change, like when you are able
to appreciate the subtleties. And I just think that doing
something over and over and over, and especially something like
a big experience visiting a museum a lot of times.
I don't know about you, but you have this feeling like, well,
I have to make the most of my time, right,

(23:05):
I have to prioritize I have to be efficient. It's like,
if you're doing something every day, it's like you don't
have to be efficient, you get all do You could
just waste time, it doesn't. No day matters. So for
me it was and it was just this chance to
just completely get out of my head and into this
beautiful space.

Speaker 4 (23:23):
And so I just never stopped because I love doing
it so much.

Speaker 3 (23:27):
Yeah, and I also wonder you know, you have talked
about how focusing on your senses has helped you change
your relationship to yourself, but I wonder if it affected
your relationships with your kids, your husband, your friends, your
interpersonal relationships.

Speaker 5 (23:42):
No, one hundred percent. And it's a great way to
connect with other people. Now, of course we know this
from like what is the classic thing. It's like you
go out to dinner with your friends, and that's a
great way to connect through a sensory experience. But you
can do a lot of things like I went to
a sound bath with a friend. I had a flavor
party where I had all my friends come over and
then we did well. One of the things we did
was we tasted ketchup, which would not have been maybe

(24:03):
not everybody would have enjoyed it as much as I did,
and we did taste comparisons, like three different potato chips
and three you.

Speaker 2 (24:10):
Know what it's called when you hate the smell, taste, texture,
like reject ketchup. Yes, okay, it's not like one sense
like I don't like the taste.

Speaker 1 (24:20):
It's all encompassing.

Speaker 4 (24:22):
Do you like the color? I think it's a nice color.

Speaker 2 (24:25):
No, because I know what that color comes with.

Speaker 5 (24:27):
Okay, okay, okay, okay, you know you know what you
don't want? What about ketchup based things like meat loaf,
things that have a lot of ketchup?

Speaker 4 (24:35):
Yeah, I can.

Speaker 2 (24:36):
Have those, but again, not my face, not my.

Speaker 4 (24:39):
Face, not your favorite, yea, not your favorite.

Speaker 5 (24:41):
But I mean even that is fun at the taste
party where you find out like, oh okay, this friend
of mine that I've had for years hates ketchup and
I never knew that. Or we were all reminiscing about
the candy that we ate as kids, and it was like,
but there were all these really regional differences in what
kinds of candies like we wanted as children, And it's
really dining in the dark work with my family.

Speaker 4 (25:01):
So we went where they liked you. Oh I went there.

Speaker 5 (25:03):
Yeah, Yeah, interesting, right, Like it's sort of a memorable
adventure to go on. So it is a great way
to connect with other people and you can think about, Yeah,
we could go for hike outside, we could go to dinner,
but maybe we want to do something that's more different,
that's going to tap into our senses in a different way.

Speaker 4 (25:19):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (25:20):
My friend and I went, and I wrote about this
in one of my books. We went to a restaurant
actually called Dining in the Dark don la Noir. It
was called in London, and you eat in the dark
and you order in the dark, and you're it's supposed
to heighten your experience and the taste and all of
those things.

Speaker 5 (25:36):
Well, okay, when I did it, everybody clearly was very
suspicious that we were going to be fed something that
we wouldn't otherwise eat, and so I think everybody was
very apprehensive. I think I might have enjoyed it more
if i'd kind of known what I was getting into.

Speaker 4 (25:51):
What was your experience? What did you think about that?

Speaker 2 (25:54):
Yeah, I wasn't that impressed with the food. It was
more of like a it was more of a heightened
sense of not being able to see where you are,
what you're eating, who you're with, who's looking at you?

Speaker 5 (26:04):
No, I kept reaching out to touch my other family
members because I didn't feel oriented toward them.

Speaker 2 (26:08):
Right, Yes, it's very disorienting.

Speaker 5 (26:11):
So it's interesting, it's very but again it's like it's
very memorable. It's so different from what we would usually
experience that, like, you know, for both of us, these
experience happened years ago, and we have a clear I
mean I certainly have a clearer memory of that than
a thousand other dinners that I went to.

Speaker 4 (26:24):
With my family.

Speaker 5 (26:25):
So yeah, so doing again it's something novel, so that
makes it more interesting, and it's dialing into our senses.

Speaker 4 (26:31):
In a way that's really fun.

Speaker 5 (26:32):
And also the thing about the census is every you know,
you can do it so that everybody experiences it together.

Speaker 4 (26:38):
They all have their opinion.

Speaker 5 (26:39):
So someone was telling me that at a big family
like you know, Thanksgiving or Christmas or whatever, they would
buy you know, this bizarre ice cream flavors. You're like,
who wants rosemary in time ice cream? Like you're you're intrigued,
but like who wants to like two more things?

Speaker 2 (26:51):
I can't stand roastberry and time.

Speaker 5 (26:54):
So right, so they would get all the bizarre, the
cream corn, all the strains, ice cream flavors, and then
they would pass it around and everybody would have a
spoonful or two, and then they would talk about what
they liked or didn't like it, and it was just like
a three year old can talk about it, a ninety
three year old can talk about it.

Speaker 4 (27:07):
Everybody's sharing this experience. It's kind of fun.

Speaker 5 (27:10):
It's playful, and it's a way to bring people together
through a sensory experience in a way that's unconventional but
really fun.

Speaker 2 (27:17):
Great, Okay, we're going to take a break and we're
going to be right back to take some callers, and
we're back.

Speaker 3 (27:27):
We are back, Sarah, Right, you're Chelsea. My husband and
I have spent the last three years learning about life
outside of Mormonism. It's scary and amazing and freeing. My
husband is preparing to go on a psilocybin journey to
learn more about himself and a spirituality. I'm truly excited
for him, and while I don't personally feel called to

(27:48):
sit with psychedelics, I want to honor him and his journey.
So my question for you is this, how can I
show my support and help him prepare for his journey,
and how can I get past my own concerns and
fully embrace whatever may come for him and for us, Sarah, I.

Speaker 5 (28:04):
Would say, ask him, ask him how he wants to
be supported. It's it sounds like she's not going to
do it herself, So what would he what would he
want to be supported?

Speaker 2 (28:14):
Yeah, and I think, you know, opening a dialogue and
keeping that dialogue open about fears or misgivings or things
that he's looking forward to, or you know, any sort
of I don't know, maybe some negative feelings that he
has attached to it. I would just try to diminish
those as best I could as a partner, as a
loving partner in support of him that this is going

(28:37):
to be a positive experience. I think the most important
thing you can do when you go into these experiences
is to be open and to be ready for whatever,
and also to have the confidence and the feeling that
it's going to be a great experience, like not to
go in scared and not to go in with any
sort of kind of negativity around it. So I think

(28:57):
learning as much as you can about what he's working
on is going to be a helpful tool to balance
him and show him like a support and that's pretty
much all you can do, you know. I don't think
you should be labor it to the point where it's
you know, annoying and like, Okay, I need you to
talk about everything. Like as much as he's comfortable, I
think you make yourself, You make your presence known.

Speaker 4 (29:17):
I'm here.

Speaker 2 (29:18):
I want to be here with you and for you,
and however that takes shape. Let me know what you're
comfortable with and let him guide.

Speaker 5 (29:25):
You and stay curious, as you say, like, be interested
and listen about whatever it is that he's discovering.

Speaker 2 (29:33):
I think the biggest gift we can give anyone going
through anything that is different is to listen. Right, We
can listen and listen and listen, and people will usually
figure everything out. If they're honest with themselves and they're
in a place of learning, they are able to talk
through most things, you know. And so anything that can
spark a conversation or can ignite a conversation that you

(29:57):
may have not had yet, you know, is always good
to go into new territories and to talk about things
that haven't been unearthed yet, because I think when he
comes out of it, there can also be a feeling
of like separateness when somebody goes on a journey and
they come back, because it's kind of ineffable. You can't
even describe what happened to you to the to the
next person. And I would say to always try to

(30:19):
bridge that gap, like it doesn't matter that you didn't
experience it, You're there to enjoy his experience. I would
always just move closer to the person who's going through
something to make sure that your presence is felt, your
presence is known, and they know you're right next to them.

Speaker 5 (30:34):
It sounded from her question like maybe she's feeling a
little bit of apprehension about it.

Speaker 2 (30:37):
Yeah, it did sound like that.

Speaker 5 (30:39):
What you're saying is don't like sort of don't communicate
that to him, because he'll have a better experience if
he's not picking up on your concerns. So maybe it's
like confide that to someone else because.

Speaker 2 (30:51):
It's also not about you, really, it's about him, So
make it about him.

Speaker 3 (30:56):
Right, Yeah, you both and tell say correct me if
I'm wrong. But when you first tried Iohwaska, it was
sort of like you didn't really feel much, Is that right?
I think you both had sort of like not an experience.
Obviously psilocybin's different, but not the experience you expected to
have when you tried it, right.

Speaker 2 (31:14):
Yeah, I mean I think I was pulled out of
mind because in my friend's reactions to their own experiences.
I was with two friends, so that kind of that
kind of pulled me away. But when I was alone, yes,
I was able to feel it. What about you, Gretchen, Yeah, I.

Speaker 5 (31:31):
Didn't really have much of an experience either. I threw
up three times. I was like, well did I just
sort of clear it? But I was also in a
place that was intense. It's interesting that you said that
you were sort of pulled pulled out of it by
a friend because where I was was intensely, intensely cold,
and I almost wonder if my body was like you
know what, you can't you can't disengage.

Speaker 4 (31:50):
You have to stay in your body because it's just
so cold.

Speaker 5 (31:55):
So it is interesting, like this may be some part
of you like stays in the moment and has to
decide like can I actually go this route or do
I need to stay where I am? That's interesting, but
for whatever reason, it sort of didn't take with me.

Speaker 2 (32:08):
Oh interesting, And you didn't repeat the experience.

Speaker 5 (32:12):
Well, see, I'm I am a real square. I mean,
this is so out of my comfort zone. This is
I'm still astonished that I did it and I worked
up so hard to do it. Then I'm like, I
did it, and I can't I sort of can't get
myself back to that place that I had to work
really hard to get to. So I'm really sort of

(32:34):
sad that I didn't kind of have a bigger experience
because I really wanted to have a big experience, But
I don't feel like I have the emotional wherewithal to
do it again, you know, right?

Speaker 2 (32:46):
Copy that?

Speaker 3 (32:47):
Yeah? Well, our next question comes from Kaylan Klin. Says,
Dear Chelsea, Recently, my best friend introduced me to your podcast,
and it's helped me reframe so many things in my life.
The help you give is so meaningful, and not just
to the person you're helping, but all your listeners. My
problem is this, I've been doing the same thing my
entire life. I'm twenty eight, but I feel like I

(33:09):
haven't lived at all. I live in a small town.
I met a man seventeen years my senior, right out
of high school and married him. We've been married five
years now and are happy, but maybe a little bored.
I've also worked at the same place since I was fifteen,
working my way up to a general management position out
a franchise. I don't have a degree, so it feels
like without going back to school, this is my best

(33:30):
bet for income. Within the last year, my husband and
I were close to buying a house and it fell through,
and so we decided not to do that but instead
focus on things that bring us joy. I think maybe
it was a sign that I don't belong in this
small town for the long term. My problem now is now,
what where can I tweak my life to find passion?
Do I focus on trying to find a fire in

(33:51):
my marriage again? Do I reevaluate my career? I feel stuck,
as though life is passing me by and I'm walking
blindly through life. And I don't want to feel this way.
In my thirties, I feel like I meant for so
much more.

Speaker 7 (34:03):
Okay, hik hihikay hi.

Speaker 2 (34:07):
This is our guest, Gretchen Rubin.

Speaker 5 (34:09):
Hi.

Speaker 2 (34:10):
Okay, So, okay, how long are you stuck in this
town for?

Speaker 5 (34:13):
Do we know?

Speaker 6 (34:15):
Well?

Speaker 7 (34:15):
So he has children from a previous marriage, so when
they finished school, he wants to keep.

Speaker 2 (34:20):
Them in the school district, and when will that be?

Speaker 3 (34:23):
Six years?

Speaker 2 (34:24):
Okay, so you're debating or deliberating between infusing some sort
of fun and liveliness into your marriage or into your
personal life.

Speaker 7 (34:33):
So I feel like when I wrote in after we
decided not to buy a house and that was really disappointing.
And I feel like we were kind of butting heads
because we had to buy a house in the school
district and I the options were so limited, and I
feel like over the last couple of months things haven't
necessarily gotten better. And I was on Instagram just scrawling

(34:58):
and obviously there's the big age difference between him and I,
and there was a post of a girl and it
said like, if you're a man twice my age and
think I'm cute, comment and he fucking commented on it.

Speaker 3 (35:13):
Sorry, excuse me language.

Speaker 2 (35:14):
That's okay, that's okay, that's the least of our worries.

Speaker 4 (35:17):
What did he comment?

Speaker 7 (35:19):
Just high and then like a fire emoji. Oh it's
so gross. It's just gross.

Speaker 5 (35:25):
Ugh.

Speaker 2 (35:25):
So are you thinking about leaving your marriage or are you?

Speaker 4 (35:29):
What do you?

Speaker 7 (35:30):
I don't want to, but that whole situation has me
like I was trying to convince myself that six years
is worth it and then we can live this dream.
And now I'm like, I feel so disgusted, almost like
I was a fetish M yeah, I hear you.

Speaker 5 (35:49):
Wow, I had a completely different suggestion, but this takes
hibited a new direction.

Speaker 4 (35:55):
But maybe to pull back.

Speaker 5 (35:56):
Aside from that, I think it's great that you're sort
of admitting to yourself that you're feeling restless generally, like
maybe in your marriage, maybe just generally, maybe in your work,
where you live. And one thing that is helpful to
think about. It's a painful thing to think about, but
can be helpful is whom do you envy when you

(36:16):
look around of the people that you know are like
the fates that you can think of. Is it people
who live in a bigger city. Is it people who
have a more interesting career? Is it people who have
a different kind of marriage? Like, sometimes when we think
about whom we envy, it makes it clear about what
we want, because at least for your initial question, it
sounds like like you weren't sure even what you wanted

(36:37):
or like what area was causing this feeling of restlessness.
And sometimes what happens is people change what's easy to
change or what's obvious, rather than the thing that would
kind of more deeply satisfy them, because it's it's so
hard to know ourselves, and sometimes it's hard to face
things that are scary or intimidating or upsetting. But now

(37:00):
this latest wrinkle seems to have cast the whole thing
in a new light. But is that in fact revealing
or is that new information right?

Speaker 7 (37:10):
I feel like when my best friend Harry, when he
put me onto this podcast, I like binge to listen
to it, and I feel like I wanted to start
making changes just based off of everything that's talked about
just on the podcast alone and Chelsea being like the
kind of woman that she is and like independent and strong,

(37:32):
and I felt like I was wasting my time just
going through the motions, and I think people pleasing and
wanting to just make sure that everything else was good.
And I feel like with work, like I fought for
a raise so that made me feel better at work,
and I wanted to put effort into obviously my relationship

(37:54):
and my marriage. And then literally last night this happened
and I haven't really seen him, so I decided to
stay at my mom's. But yeah, I don't know. I
feel like it's the independence part of it. Having basically
never been single.

Speaker 3 (38:11):
I wonder if there are some ways that you can
inject some independence in a small way into your life.
Like obviously, like you're having this issue with your husband
right now, and I think that's like worth, you know,
go have a couple sessions with a therapist and talk
through that. But you do seem fairly happy in your marriage.
And maybe it's like you start taking weekend trips by yourself,

(38:33):
and it doesn't have to be like, you know, you're
going to Timbuktu. You can just go, like go to
another state, like visit some restaurants. Maybe it's even just
like I'm going to take it a Friday night and
I'm going to go have a date with myself whatever
that means for you, go have dinner by yourself, see
a movie, you know whatever. You kind of really love
to take a drive, even, you know, visit a museum

(38:56):
or a park that you've never been to, take a
hike before you or here we talked a lot about
novelty and experiencing new things, and there may be some
really simple ways that you can inject novelty into your
life that are ways to help you grow as a person,
which I think can only help your marriage grow as well.

Speaker 2 (39:16):
Yeah, and I think something to bring up in therapy
is that something that you can do bring him to
therapy with you.

Speaker 3 (39:21):
I could try.

Speaker 2 (39:23):
Yeah, I think you should, because you're sacrificing a lot
for this marriage and for his situation. So it's a
matter of a respect and boundaries and parameters that you
feel comfortable with that he has to agree to. You've
uprooted yourself to be in this life and to be
in this marriage and to be beholden kind of to
whatever his desires and whims are and his children. So

(39:45):
I think you a deserve more from your marriage, and
I agree with everything else about your personal life and
actually investigating ways that you can make yourself happier within
the marriage that you're in, and then through that work,
taking weekends to your doing some stuff at night that
doesn't involve him, you know, joining whatever it is, a
book club or a wine club or whatever you're interested in,

(40:08):
just to kind of like cultivate new friendships. I think
if you can do that, you're going to find out
more of what you want and what makes you happy,
rather than just kind of signing up to this already
existing situation that you've that you're in, which is totally workable.
You know, it's not like you need to walk out
the door and leave all your shit, but you need

(40:28):
to pay more attention to yourself and probably less attention
to everyone else's needs for a while, and invest a
little bit in yourself to trying to figure out is
this really what makes you happy? Is this dynamic going
to make you happy? You know, you said you feel
like a fetish, that's not a feeling that's just going
to disappear, And his behavior has an impact on that
as well. So I think all of this stuff is important.

Speaker 5 (40:51):
One thing I would add is another way to think
about that is identify the problem instead of just sort
of a vague sense of restlessness and uneasiness, Like what
is the problem? Like maybe, as Catherine said, you don't
feel independent, so what would you do to increase your
sense of dependence? Or as Chelsea was saying, maybe you
feel like you don't have a lot of strong relationships,
so there are things you could do where you could

(41:11):
join or start a group. Then that would give you
more relationships. Maybe you want to invest more in your career.
So it's like, Okay, I want to make, you know,
strides in my career, so I'm going to get some
certain kinds of training. Maybe it's really comes down to
my marriage. So marriage therapy is really the thing that
I need to focus on, because sometimes we have like
a general sense of like, oh, I feel so burned out,

(41:31):
or I feel so unhappy, or I feel like, you know,
I feel stale, or I feel stuck.

Speaker 4 (41:36):
It's like that's it's hard to act on that because
it's vague.

Speaker 5 (41:39):
But when you're really like, well, what exactly is the problem?
When you really really drill down, then it starts to
feel more possible to take action because you see that
there's something very specific. It could be a lot of things,
but sometimes just really trying to get to the bottom
of what is really the source of this might make
it easier to imagine what the next step would be.

Speaker 3 (42:00):
Right. One other thing too, you know, career wise, I
know you've been in the same job for like it's
the only job I've really ever worked. Yes, It's like yeah,
and I think even though you don't have a career
and you live in a small town. Don't sell yourself short,
and you and I can offline about like some of
the specific things to look into, But I think, look

(42:22):
at maybe some office jobs around you, some other things,
and you don't even have to be like I'm quitting
my job and then I'm going to find a new job.
Maybe just get curious about, like what else could I
maybe get Yes, I know so many women who are like,
you know what, I just decided to ask for like
a crazy amount of money at this job I interviewed
for and they said, yes, you know, And so I

(42:43):
think I'm curious about, like where could I maybe get
hired that, Like maybe I don't think I could get
hired there, but like why not send a resume, tell
them that you're your boss is like right hand person,
because I know that you are. But like, don't sell
yourself short. Yeah.

Speaker 7 (42:57):
Yeah, I feel like because I've done the same thing
basically since I got out of high school, I don't
even really know what kind of skills I have. M
I feel like I don't even know what sort of
jobs I would look at that would like best suit me.

Speaker 3 (43:14):
Yeah. The thing to cling to and to know and
to say in interviews So she and I talked yesterday
about like she has been her boss's right hand person.
He knows that he can kind of like leave the
store up to her and everything is going to be
totally fine. He barely has to come in. That skill
is not that you can teach. Oh, that skill is

(43:35):
eminently hirable. That is the skill that will get you
promotion after promotion when you decide to go somewhere else.
And again, like, maybe that's not right now, maybe you
want to go get some more training while you're doing
this job that you like know like the back of
your hand. But that skill is the one I want
you to focus on with your resume and interviews.

Speaker 2 (43:53):
Absolutely, absolutely, that's invaluable and like and anybody hiring you
will be able to recognize that. So don't minimize that,
Like you've only had one job experience. You've had one
job experience that taught you a lot about being independent
and actually picking up the pieces and covering for the
owner or coming for the you know, the head of
the company. Like you do have a skill set, So
don't minimize that. Exploit it, Like, yes, I can do

(44:15):
all of these things on my own. I can keep
the ball in the air, so to speak, with your job, like,
you can do all of those things, and those can
all be applied to different jobs, and it's a matter
of trial and error in terms of what you're going
to find that is interesting to you. And you just
have to be laser focused on getting to find that
thing you know. You keep trying, you can't after two times,

(44:36):
and you're like, well, that didn't interest me, and that
didn't interest me, I guess I'm done. No, you have
to be indefatigable in your interest to better your life,
you know what I mean, and the quality of your life,
because that will yield the best results. It always does.
When you are laser focused on bettering yourself, it will come.
It's like you know, anything else that you pay close
attention to, you will sharpen your skills and get better

(44:56):
at knowing what you like and what you don't like.
And even every experience that you don't like is close
is a step closer to getting to what you do
want to do.

Speaker 5 (45:04):
A trick that can help is give advice to someone else.
Imagine that you're talking to somebody in your exact situation,
because research shows we're really good at giving advice to
other people, and it's much harder take the advice for ourselves.
So just like, write down what would you tell your
best friend if she was an exactly your situation, and
then follow your own advice. Be indefatigable doing what other

(45:26):
person says. The other person is telling you to do,
even though it's you.

Speaker 3 (45:32):
Yeah, okay, so kay, We're gonna have you go sign
up for three therapy sessions to work through this. Even
if you think let's start with one, No, start with three.
That might deal with it. You might find you need more.
But get him to agree to three and get curious
about what else is out there, who's hiring, And even
if you don't think that you can do it, like

(45:53):
throw them a resume, see what happens.

Speaker 8 (45:55):
Okay, I will, Good luck, good, thank you, thank you,
bye b bye.

Speaker 2 (46:07):
Well.

Speaker 3 (46:07):
Our next question comes from Colleen. Colleen says, Dear Chelsea,
I've been a teacher for twenty plus years, most of
them in my current school district, but I'm thinking about
a change. Last year, I got into hot water for
being quote too inclusive. Unfortunately, this seems to be the
direction my district is heading. Another problem is that I've

(46:28):
been asking for a change of assignment for six years,
but instead of reassigning me, they hired brand new teachers
to fill those positions, not to mention how challenging the
students are post COVID. I'm feeling defeated and burnt out.
It may seem obvious that I should leave, but here's
my dilemma. I'm at the top of the salary scale
and the benefits are excellent. If I can make it

(46:48):
through twelve more years, I can retire at fifty seven
with a really good pension and benefits. My dream is
to work for a nonprofit, but the pay is a joke,
and I won't have the safety nets that I have now,
great healthcare, sick bank, bereavement leave, etc. My friends and
families support me moving on because they just want me
to be happy, but my husband would rather I stick
it out, even though he values my happiness, He's worried

(47:11):
about our long term stability. I'm struggling in my current position,
but starting over is terrifying and unpredictable. I dream of
doing something rewarding, but I'm afraid I'll regret giving up
the security. Colleen, Hi, Colleen, Hey, Colleen, Hi, Hi.

Speaker 2 (47:27):
This is our special guest Scratch and Reuben today.

Speaker 4 (47:29):
Hello.

Speaker 2 (47:30):
Hi, Well, I'm of the school that you have to
find your own happiness, and I also think when you
make a decision that's setting yourself in motion in a
different direction. It really doesn't matter which direction you choose.
It matters that you are married to the decision that
you make and that you're committed to it. And I
feel like that's where a lot of happiness comes from,

(47:53):
is knowing that you have the ability to make that
kind of decision. It's a strong one. You're saying, Okay,
I'm done with this stability, I'm done with all of this.
I am going to trust myself and bet on myself
in moving forward. Obviously there are other people to consider here,
but I do feel like your personal happiness is paramount
to anything else that you're providing for your family, as

(48:14):
long as you are not, you know, subjecting them to abuse, neglect,
and all of the other negative things that can come
with pursuing. I don't mean being selfish in your pursuits.
I mean being self fulfilled.

Speaker 3 (48:26):
In your pursuits.

Speaker 2 (48:29):
So how do you look at that, Like, how do
you look at this whole framework of what you put
in that letter and what your husband says and his
need for stability or his want for stability versus how
you're feeling.

Speaker 6 (48:40):
You know, I tend to be kind of anxious, so
I do appreciate the stability that I have and just
knowing that, you know, I could take a personal day
to be on a podcast if I.

Speaker 4 (48:50):
Need to, like, you know, if things come up.

Speaker 6 (48:54):
I have kind of that steady you know, employment and
income and all that. But at the same time, you know,
there's some days where I, you know, cry on my
way to work, cry my way home. You know, I
just feel so frustrated that I'm kind of being held
back from helping kids in the way that I think
they need to be helped. But maybe something's better than nothing.

Speaker 2 (49:17):
Well, I think you're you're probably mourning the loss of
your potential, right, Yeah, absolutely, And so that is one
of the most important ingredients that a human being can
give themselves, is actually like fulfilling your own potential and
becoming what you you know, dreamt you would become when
you were a little girl.

Speaker 5 (49:34):
Well, one thing I would I would offer is that
sometimes it's easy to fall into a false choice where
it's like I either choose stability and stick with a
job I really dislike for the next twelve years, or
I risk everything and follow my dreams. Whereas in fact,
it's like, are those the only two choices you said
that you've tried for six years to get another?

Speaker 4 (49:54):
You know, to switch?

Speaker 5 (49:55):
Like are there other things that you could do that
would the parts that you like, the stability and the
benefits and everything, but would allow you to get away
from the things that you don't want? Like are there
more avenues within what you're doing now that would take
you closer to the things that would make you happier
and away from the things that are bringing you down,

(50:16):
Because because it's not like stay where I am or
leave everything, Like what are the options in between? Maybe
you've exhausted them, but maybe you haven't. Also, you said
your dream is to work for a nonprofit. Sometimes we
have an idea of the way something is, and it
is that way, or sometimes it's not that way. So
maybe one thing you could do is to volunteer or
something and get a sense of what it's really like,

(50:36):
because then it probably will be clear like, Wow, this
is really worth a big risk because it's exactly what
I wanted. Or maybe you're like, wow, it's actually there's
a lot of issues there too, like are there ways
that you can test it out in a halfway point?
Because money can't buy happiness, but if put can buy
a lot of things that buy happiness, and one of

(50:58):
the things is security and not having to worry about money.
So it is a big concern to not leave lightly.
You know, you want to make sure that you're you're
signing up for what you expect if you do decide
to make that transition. I don't know how much you
know about the landscape of where you might go. I
do volunteer with some local organizations oh great that I do.

Speaker 6 (51:21):
Care about, and I know there are you know, some
frustrations in those things as well. There's always something yeah, it's.

Speaker 3 (51:29):
Something yeah, no, And I love that idea of like
seeing what else there is in your current environment. I mean,
maybe it's even like I don't know if kids are
who you want to work with as far as nonprofit goes,
but maybe it is like creating an answerery program within
your school that you help run, or maybe it's even
taking a leave of absence for a year and diving

(51:49):
in and seeing like at the end of the year
you can decide is this what I really want to
continue doing or do I really want to go back
and make it to my pension.

Speaker 5 (51:57):
Another question I think is really helpful when you sort
of feel like you can't pros and cons, you just
kind of can't think you're way through it is to say,
choose the bigger life?

Speaker 4 (52:05):
What is the bigger life?

Speaker 5 (52:06):
Because it might be like, well, really, the bigger life
is like having the freedom and having the security and
knowing what I know, knowing my schedule, and like, actually
that's the bigger life, or the bigger life is like no,
I want to step away from all that and towards
something that I'm really passionate about.

Speaker 4 (52:20):
But sometimes sometimes I found that.

Speaker 5 (52:22):
Like I'd be completely perplexed, and then when I think, well,
what's the bigger life, it becomes much more obvious.

Speaker 4 (52:28):
So that's a question to consider.

Speaker 6 (52:30):
That's great because you know, one of the things my
husband will say sometimes is, you know, look at all
the things you're able to do now, the way you're
able to donate your time and your money.

Speaker 4 (52:40):
Yeah, you know that maybe wouldn't be available.

Speaker 5 (52:43):
It's so easy to take things for granted when we
have them and we only appreciate them when we lose
them or we think we might lose them. So you
might even do the thought exercise of like imagine your
future self two years from now. Had you done that,
maybe go through the calendar year and think like, well,
what would life be like?

Speaker 4 (52:59):
Because it is a very big decision.

Speaker 3 (53:01):
Yeah, I do think something people neglect as well is
both the soft and the hard costs to continuing to
do something that like makes you feel awful every day,
like trying on your way to work. You know, that's
not only an emotional cost, but it's also like maybe
you're doubling up on therapy because you know, because you're
feeling so awful about it, and like how you're spending

(53:23):
your time, you know what your work is doing to
your insides, So like there are hard costs associated with
that as well. There are health costs, often there are
mental health costs, So I think that's something too weigh
as well. Well, Chelsea, anything else we want to say
to Colleen as she makes a decision here.

Speaker 2 (53:41):
I mean, I, yeah, you know, I would really just
sit with yourself and really try to listen to what
is going to be the best outcome for you and
not make any rash decisions, but really like kind of
investigate and really listen to yourself. You know, your relationship
with yourself is so important and sometimes we get confused
about what that means. But I mean, being truly happy

(54:02):
in this life I think is like a great pursuit.
I mean, we only get this chance, so you may
as well make the most of it. You know, you
don't want to have regrets when you're older. You don't
want to have regrets when you're dead or dying or
sick or any of that. You want to think, Wow,
like I'm proud of who I was, and I'm proud
of like the chances that I took. So I would

(54:22):
say take that with you. And obviously you're not going
to do anything crazy or like you know, it's not
like you're going to become like a skydiver. It's not
like you know, your your thoughts and your feelings are
so rational and now it's like time to really examine
them and and and get to a place where you
are confident in making the next step where it's not
a question, it's actually like the only it's the only answer.

(54:45):
So does is that helpful at all to you?

Speaker 3 (54:47):
Yeah, it's a lot to think about.

Speaker 6 (54:49):
And you know, everyone I've talked to is you know,
there's there's, like you said, the pros and the cons
and my happiness is important, but you know, will I
get that I be able to be happy without some
of the other things that come along with that stability piece.

Speaker 4 (55:02):
So kind of hoping you just tell.

Speaker 3 (55:04):
Me to do we just decide for you.

Speaker 5 (55:07):
Well, you know what what you could do sometimes is
you flip a coin and then if it's like if
you're like, no, I want to flip again and you're like, oh, well,
then you know what you want. Because one way you're like, oh,
I'll take heads, but then you're like, no, let's see
two out of three. It's like okay, you know now
you know what you really want.

Speaker 3 (55:23):
Yeah, yeah, I love that. Or also give yourself a timeline,
say like, okay, if in six months I'm still feeling
this way and I just can't stand it, then like,
I'm not going to renew for the next year. You know,
I'm gonna look for something else or just be looking
for the other thing, and you know, when the right
thing comes up, then you'll know.

Speaker 4 (55:41):
Thank you. And is there another position that you could get?

Speaker 5 (55:44):
I mean maybe you're not going to get your top
of the pay scale, but that you would have other
things that are important to you too, Like again the
false choice, It might be maybe you can get some
of the things that are important to you in a
new position as well. So maybe the sacrifice isn't as
great as you might expected to be in terms of
like scheduling freedom, which sounds like it's very important to you.

Speaker 6 (56:05):
Something could come up so I can I can hang
around and see keep my eye open for something new
and see what's you know around in my current job.

Speaker 3 (56:14):
And I think you want to be told to leave
your job, don't you?

Speaker 4 (56:18):
I think so.

Speaker 2 (56:19):
I I think you should also just send an email
out to like your closest friends and people that you trust,
say like, you're looking for a career change, and if
anyone you know and like, cast a net to like
see what pops up, because you never really know, and
people don't they under use that your whole network of
people are there and you never know what somebody has

(56:40):
you know for you, maybe an opportunity or they know someone,
or they just heard about a job that may be
of interest to you. But I think as long as
you put all your feelers out there. It's like when
they people talk about trying to meet a guy and
no one's doing anything about it. It's like you have
to be you have to be forward facing, like you
have to be activated in the direction that you want
to go to get some results. It's not just going

(57:02):
to someone's not going to knock on your door and
be like, do you want this job? It's perfect for you,
Like be productive about it.

Speaker 4 (57:08):
Yeah, and that's great advice.

Speaker 5 (57:09):
Research shows that we're often more benefited by loose ties
because the people who you have strong ties to basically
know the same things you know. But it's like the
friend of your cousin or that guy that you used
to work with ten years ago who you ran into
at the grocery store. These loose ties are often where
you find new opportunities because they're connected to worlds that
you don't already have access to. So this idea of

(57:30):
casting a very wide net and kind of mentioning it
broadly is really really useful. That's that's a very consistent
finding in the research.

Speaker 6 (57:39):
Okay, that's definitely something I hadn't thought about.

Speaker 3 (57:42):
Yeah, that's great.

Speaker 2 (57:43):
Okay, Well keep us posted too, let us know what
happens in the next few months with you, Colleen.

Speaker 4 (57:48):
Okay, Okay, Luck.

Speaker 3 (57:50):
Thank you, thank you so much. I love you all.

Speaker 6 (57:51):
Thank you.

Speaker 2 (57:52):
Okay, Okay, we're going to take a break and we're
going to be right back.

Speaker 4 (58:00):
Okay.

Speaker 2 (58:00):
Well, thank you Gretchen so much for your insight on
happiness and remaining that way and pursuing it. And we
appreciate your time.

Speaker 5 (58:08):
Well, thanks so much. I so enjoyed the chance to
talk to you and to your callers. Okay, take care,
thanks so much.

Speaker 2 (58:15):
Okay, guys, so for stand up. My next two shows
in Vancouver are March twenty ninth. There are still tickets
available for March thirtieth in Vancouver if you're in the
Vancouver area, so get your tickets before they run out.
That's March twenty ninth.

Speaker 4 (58:29):
It sold out.

Speaker 2 (58:30):
March thirtieth tickets available, and then I'm coming to Salt
Lake City on April fourth, and I'm coming to Denver,
Colorado on April fifth. Tickets are still available for those two. Maricopa,
Arizona is April twelfth, and then Brooks, California is April thirteenth.
And we added a second show in Sydney, and we
added a second show in Prior Lake, Minnesota, which is

(58:51):
now going to be May twenty fourth.

Speaker 1 (58:54):
We added the Santa Barbara Bowl, which.

Speaker 2 (58:57):
Is so fun. I performed there last year. That's August seventeenth,
the Santa Barbara Bowl. We ended a second show at
Santa Rosa on August second, and we added two dates
at Hawaii, guys. I'm coming to Hawaii on July nineteenth.

Speaker 1 (59:13):
To Cahulu Kahulu.

Speaker 2 (59:16):
Oh shit, I know I was saying that wrong. And
then I'm coming on July twenty at to Honolulu. And
I just added another date on August first Auburn, Washington.
So and all my Australia and New Zealand dates are up,
and I will be announcing a European tour shortly, so
I will be coming there. And I'm coming to Oklahoma.

(59:36):
I have two dates in Oklahoma May third, which is
my mother's birthday, Norman, Oklahoma, and May fourth, I will
be in.

Speaker 1 (59:43):
Thackerville, Oklahoma.

Speaker 2 (59:45):
So Oklahomians, Oklahoma's Oklahom's come side.

Speaker 3 (59:50):
If you'd like advice from Chelsea, shoot us an email
at Dear Chelsea podcast at gmail dot com and be
sure to include your phone number. Dear Chelsea is edited
and engineered by BREA executive producer Katherine Law and be
sure to check out our merch at Chelseahandler dot com