My Psychiatrist Explains My Personality (And Yours) - The Enneagram Episode

Chelsea is joined again by her psychiatrist, Dr. Dan Siegel for conversational examination of The Enneagram of Personality.

Credits:

Host: Chelsea Handler

Guests: Dr. Dan Siegel & Brandon Marlo

Executive Producer: Conal Byrne

Producers: Sophie Lichterman, Jack O’Brien

Writers: Jamie Loftus, Anna Hossnieh & Sophie Lichterman 

Consulting Producers: Nick Stumpf, Miles Gray, & Anna Hossnieh

This episode was Engineered, Mixed & Edited by: Danl Goodman

Music by: Kingsbury

Order: "Life Will Be the Death of Me"

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hi, I'm Chelsea Handler. Welcome to Life Will Be the
Death of Me a production of I Heart Radio. Hi. There,
we're here today. It's Brandon Chelsea and my psychiatrist, Dan
Segel is here. He's going to break down the angiogram
for us, because that is a part of my book
where I explained that I am a number eight on

(00:20):
the angiogram chart, which is something I had never heard
of before I met Dan. And um, we're gonna go
through all the numbers of the Instagram because a lot
of people have been asking me questions about it and
how to take a test. There's a bunch of online
tests you can take, and there's a bunch of different variations. Okay,
so I want you to just take us through all
the numbers because, like a classic narcissist, I'm just familiar
with my own. Even though I know we decided I'm

(00:41):
not an artissist. It was a grand jury decision. By
the way, I would like to say, I'm unanimous. That's right,
totally unanimous, non narcissistic, that's right. So the thing that
first of all to say about the Instagram that's so
cool is that it's actually an inside job. Unlike other
systems of trying to classify personality. This one isn't so

(01:02):
much about what you would see someone doing in their behavior.
It's where their attention goes. And so that's an inner experience. Now,
so so watching another person, you wouldn't be able to
deduce what number there are no really, you could make
guesses and be right. You can make guesses and be wrong.
But it's an inside job. That's what I love about

(01:23):
it because it's really about where attention goes, which means
the inner systems of the brain, that's our view in
the group I'm working with are actually showing their proclivities,
their tendencies. So as we go through these nine, keep
in mind that the Instagram system is an observation of
where attention goes that has been really interesting and of

(01:45):
value to lots of people. And then with these scientists,
colleagues and I, we are really trying to say, Okay,
that's really interesting observational data. Now what's happening in the brain.
So as we go through this, I'll give you a
little bit of the antagram and a little bit of
our perspective, and they go together, I think, beautifully. But

(02:06):
all of them are about the inside job. Okay. So
the PDP model is your take on the angiogram. Correct,
So our PDP model looks at the brain number one
and then gives a developmental pathway and white people like that.
We're not getting into that here because it gets a
little So basically Danna saying he has a take on
the angiogram model, which is the PDPOT model, which is
patterns of developmental pathways pathways. So that's what that is, okay, right,

(02:30):
Meaning you have to decide or decipher where your attention
goes and what resonates with you when you read these
descriptions right exactly. So like one time I did this
from my whole family. We sat around in a family meeting.
We went around these nine like we're just about to do,
and then my father in law, of less his soul,
he came up with one number and all of his

(02:50):
kids and his wife said, that's not you, And it
really was him. He was being so open and honest
about where he was at on this these nine pipes.
He landed himself right in one and they said, that's
not you, but it was. He had shown an external
way of behaving just to get along with everybody. Um,
but his inside world was quite different. So this is

(03:11):
what I think so great about the Instagram. When we
say it's an inside job, it means you can look
up these descriptions and as we go around the nine
for everyone listening, you can say, what is really my tendency?
Not so much what I've learned to behave as to
get along with other people, but where do I tend
to go? You know? And that's why we're so excited

(03:32):
from a brain point of view to come up with
this model we call PDP. These patterns of developmental pathways
that likely start early in life with your temperament, are
shaped in part by your relationship experiences, for example with
your parents, and then combine temperament and attachment these relationship
experience to form personality. So that's our proposal that it's

(03:55):
a combination of experience and genetics basically that leads to
person reality. And it's an inside job because one of
the most important things the brain does is say to you, hey,
this is important, So I'm going to pay attention. And
what you pay attention to, Chelsea may be different what
I pay attention to, Brandon, what you pay attention to,

(04:15):
And that's because our brains are wired differently because of
genes and because of experience. Well, that's the question. Because
I'm an eight on the Instagram, I'm an eight, which
is like the fixer and you I asked you if
that had if that were was my personality type always,
or if that was triggered by my brother dying, and

(04:36):
then I became an eight, right, And that's exactly the
question to ask. And it's a combination. So that you
know another sibling, even if they were the same age
as you, and even with the same relationship with chet,
if they had a different temperament, they may have had
a different way of dealing with his his death. And you,

(04:57):
because of your temperament and your attachment experiences and deep, deep,
really beautiful relationship with Chad, his death meant something to
you that would have been different than to a sibling.
And so the way then we have the direct experience
his loss and then the adaptation to it that is
based on all these temperament issues, attachment issues, and and

(05:18):
then how we just try to survive. So that's why
we're all different from each other. Okay, Brandon, do you
know what number you are? I'm a number two, number two,
which is the helper. Well, there you go. Okay, that
was very helpful, Brandon, thank you. And as we get
into this, I just want to say, because people are
going to freak out when they find themselves, is that
there isn't a good type and there isn't a bad type.

(05:41):
So you say, so I say, yes, so I say.
And when I asked you what the bad things are
about the eight, you told me that there are no
bad things about any of the numbers. And I had
to remind you that I needed to hear something like
you know what my weakness was, and what it was
was silacked empathy. That's right. So there are weaknesses or
or shortcomings or growth edges, we could call them, beautifully said,

(06:05):
So it isn't that there aren't, you know, weak sides
to each of these. Yes, there are challenging sides to
every one of the nine we're about to go through.
And so what you want to do is say where
am I generally anchoring myself? And then what's my growth edge?
As you point out? And if there are let's say
an eight or we're gonna do one. Now, let's say

(06:28):
there's a one who's not aware of their oneness, right,
they're not aware where their temperament has brought them, where
their personality now is structuring how they live. So then
if you're not unaware any of the numbers, life is
going to be tough for very painful reasons that we're
gonna talk about. So each one of them has challenging,

(06:49):
painful sides to it that if you don't become aware
of it, it will imprison you. And what you want
to do is move as we go through each of
these nine from imprisonment by your type actually being amused
by your type. You may never get rid of your type.
There's no reason to get rid of it. It's just
kind of a home base. But it's just amusing. Oh yeah,
that's right. I'm an eight, So I did that. Okay,

(07:09):
Now my growth edges becoming more empathic for you, and
now I'm more we call the actualized or more aware. Yeah,
the empathy. By the way, it's a huge pain in
my ass. I want to let you know because now
I'm in empathy and full gear, full swing. So anytime
I meet anyone who annoys me, I have to constantly think.
Think about their house, think about what their life might
be like, think about their spouse, they might hate their spouse.

(07:31):
Just think that their life might not be as as
as nice as yours or not even that, just think
that that person might be going through something and it's exhausting. Dan, Yes,
I know what kind of have to think about people's
shoes and their homes and their cars and getting there
shoes for you aren't thinking you Well, no comment from you,
but anyway, Yes, So here's what I want to give

(07:51):
you some feedback on. First of all, I went to
your amazing show last week in l a thank you,
and I brought my family and they were laughing so hard.
One of them said, I haven't left so hard in years.
It was so therapeutic. Oh that's nice, everybody. You can
we added more cities. You can buy your tickets at
live nation dot com for the Life Will Be The
Death of Me too, so so great. And my son

(08:12):
was there, and you know, he's a musician, so he's
in a totally different field. But he heard what you
said about the experience of therapy, so he said, I
never really knew what my dad did. Chelsea. Thank you
so much. Now I've heard because he's never heard a
patient say this is what happened. So thank you so
much for that. And what I want to say to
you is in the green room afterwards, your friends came

(08:33):
up to me and there one by one saying thank you,
thank you, thank you. You don't know how different Chelsea is.
She's so empathic, she's so patient, she listens. It's amazing
what happened, you know. And I said, well, you read
the book, you know, so she said. They were saying,
she's now saying things that she didn't say before. She's
being in a way that and it was so beautiful.
First of all, they were so loving you for the

(08:57):
courage you've had to do these changes. So I know
you're making a focus on empathy, but there's lots of
ways where you have this spaciousness and they feel really
hurt by you in a beautiful way. And it's really
it was a lot of them were in tears just
talking about how great it is to have this deep
connection with you. Now, that's nice, thank you, You're welcome.
So so let's go through the numbers. Um So in

(09:21):
the system, the one the reform of the perfectionists, the
way to think about it. In the instagrams, as they say,
it's the head type. This means there's a lot of thoughts.
That's what the head type kind of means, lots lots
of thinking. Um. And the way to think about the
one is basically for me to get along in the world,
I need to have an internal sense of how things

(09:44):
should be. So I have like a laundry list of
the shoods in life of how things ought to be.
That structures the way I go around in the world,
so that you know, if I'm going to a party,
for example, I would know that you're supposed to have
certain drinks out, you're supposed to have certain snacks out,
that the the pictures on the wall are supposed to
be ordered in a certain way, and not leaning a

(10:07):
little bit kind of it has a drive Type A
for sure. And this is the idea that you know
here what says the rational idealistic type principal, purposeful, self controlled,
and perfectionistic. When this is an actualized person, it's a
person who's just super organized, and you might call them
type A just in the sense that they're motivated, but

(10:27):
they come to life really self possessed. When they're actualized,
and I know kind of sentive ideals on how things
should be, so that's beautiful, it's great. And if you're
starting a company, you want an actualized one there with you,
you know, you know, in your life and certainly for
romantic partners, you want an actualized one. Now watch what
happens if you don't have an actualized one then, and

(10:51):
here's what the anger part for us in the PDP
models so helpful. You get really angry if the world
isn't matching your internal expectation. And the first person you
get really angry at is yourself, and they beat up
on themselves. And you know, if I'm going to do
if I'm a one that's not actualized and I'm doing

(11:13):
let's say a project at work and it doesn't come
out the way I want, I'm going to work at
it and work at it and work at it every
time it's not the way I want, I'm just going
to beat up on myself. And the world around you
gets about one per cent of the fury you have
towards yourself. So an unactualized, unaware what do you mean,
the world around you get one percent of the fury
you have. You know, let's say let's say the person

(11:35):
is in a business and there's their employee who didn't
do it the way the one who's the the employer
thought it should be. They may said that wasn't right.
You shouldn't do it like that. Do it the way
I told you too. Well, the way that yelling is
it's a hundred times stronger when they themselves haven't met
their own expectations, right, So they're projecting. They're projecting their anger,

(11:59):
but I just small percentage of it. And that's helpful
if you know a one, because you realize as as
hard as they are on the people around them, because
you don't know what their laundry list was, and they
get mad at you, they're getting much angrier towards themselves.
So this is where you can see an actualized one
is really very effective in the world and someone that's

(12:20):
wonderful to be around, because now they're saying, I have
a sense of what's going to get things done, and
I get them done. And that's an actualized one, and
they don't get mad at them they said they say, say, oh, well,
I didn't do it the way it should be done.
That's okay. I know where I'm headed towards, but it
didn't get exactly there. I can be kind to myself right,
So you can see where even with the same characteristics

(12:42):
of a one, if you're actualized, it's one way of living.
If you're not, you're in a prison of this huge
amount of anger, lots of thinking, and you feel like
just fretting that things aren't gonna be the right way.
You see, that would work. Okay, So they're rational, they're idealistic, principal, purposeful,

(13:05):
self controlled. So they're not drug addicts. Well, anyone can
become a drug addict. But yes, exactly right and perfectionistic. Right,
and this is the other name that's given it to it, right, perfectionists.
I knew I wasn't a reformer because I'm not a perfectionist. Yeah,
and neither of mine. You know, like when I write

(13:25):
books or whatever, like I'll do my best, I'll put
my heart into it. And then I turned it in
and I said, okay, next book. You know, where's a
one who wouldn't be like that, would be like this
has to be just right. And I really respect that,
but it can drive you mad. But there are degrees
of being just right without being a perfectionist. I think
that's right. That's that's such a good point because every

(13:48):
single one of us have each of the nine characteristics.
It's really more what's your propensity, what's your tendency? Where
do you kind of land? So yeah, hopefully we all
have a little bit of this, like I have an
idea how it should be, but we're not imprisoned by it,
right because there's always something you have very close attachments to.
Like me writing this book, I would rewrite, rewrite chapters,
and my friends Sophy would be like, oh my god,

(14:10):
how many times can you rewrite one chapter? I'm like twenty.
Like I can redo to a chapter several times because
it's so personal it has to be. But I'm still
not a perfectionist. I still kind of half asked other things. Yeah, yeah, exactly.
And there's an interesting comparison of the one and the
three you'll see in a moment that helps you clarify that. Okay,
so that's the one. Okay, so let's go to two.
So the two. Now we move to a different zone,

(14:31):
Brandon and the helper. The angiogram the two is a
part of what's called the heart center um and in
our PDP model, you know, this would be where it's
sadness or separation distress. So the heart, literally in our bodies,
is actually an organ that has a set of neurons
around it that's kind of like a brain. And amazingly,

(14:53):
your sense of relationship with others is processed by this
network around your heart. You also have a brain factor
around your gut, so you have three brains. What do
those brains look like, Dan, they're literally what's called the
intrinsic nervous system of the heart. So if you can
imagine a spider web like kind of mesh that's all
around the heart, that's what it is, and that connects

(15:15):
to your brain or connects to your brain in your
head to send signals to your brain from your heart.
Both directions you have sent from the heart to the
brain and from the brain to the heart. Did you
know that I didn't. The more you know, there you go,
the more you grow. Exactly, the more you know, the
more you grow and branded for you if you're saying
you kind of found yourself in a two zone, you know,

(15:36):
we now go to the heart center. So unlike the
head center with lots of thinking, thinking thinking, now it's
the heart center and it's for us. It's about this relationality.
That's what the heart is really about our relationships with
other people, our relationship to the larger world. And you know,
poets have known this a long time. And here the two,
unlike the one who's kind of focused inwardly, what's my

(15:58):
internal list of how things should be? The two now
moves not only to the heart center, but it moves
to an external focus, which goes like this, how can
I work on my relationships with other people and in
the different settings I've been in and be able to
study a bunch of ones, a bunch of twos, etcetera,
each of these in pure form and hang out with them.

(16:20):
The twos, I think, have a lot of what are
called mirror neurons, meaning they're really sensitive to the internal
state of other people. Brandon does that, Okay, Now other
people don't have that, So just as a two, you
may not realize everyone's not like that. So when I
had all these two's up on a stage and they
were like being interviewed, when one of the people would

(16:43):
cross their legs and fold their arms, every one on
the stage did the exact same thing. And the mirror
neurons system that we have basically allows you to do
two things. That allows you to observe another person to
imitate their behavior automatically, but also to feel their feelings.
So it's like sponge neurons, and I think the twos
just are born with a lot of them, which means

(17:04):
you're very tuned into the internal needs of another person.
And so with that external focus, I'm focusing on other needs.
You know, here it's called the helper, which is the
common term port the caring interpersonal type. You know, demonstrative,
generous people, pleasing and possessive, you know, an actualized too.

(17:25):
It's just a person who's really kind, giving, but knows
enough about their own tendencies that they don't give up
their own needs because they're aware. Wow, I just have
a tendency to take care of everybody, but I got
to remember to take care of me, this internal person,
whereas an unactualized two would get lost in other people's needs,

(17:48):
constantly be trying to help them, get associated with people
who maybe have big problems, so I can be really
of help. Then really needs to be needed, and then
if they're not needed or or there's an acknowledgement that
they're being needed, they get really irritated. Yes, Brandon, that's you.
He's possessive over me. He wants to get everybody else
out of my life so he can shift his thoughts

(18:08):
into my brain and take over. He likes to use
the word controlling. Yes, he's Yeah, Like last night he
disabled everything in my room so that I would have
to call him to turn the television onto my room.
Can you believe it, Dan, if you did it remotely
for me because he's disabled my iPad, my remote control.
He wants me to rely on him for everything. He's
become too self sufficient. Get over it back a little bit.

(18:30):
It's job security, Dan. Okay, this is exactly too behavior
right beautiful, So now you can understand, But now how
does it help you or change you or affect you
to know? There's this thing called it too that you
may be brandon. I think anytime you have a reference
point to certain characteristics or attributes, you can make sense

(18:51):
of them a little bit. And so knowing that there
is like you say, the growth edge, or there are
things that any of these numbers can work on, you
have kind of a touch point to go back to, like, Okay,
well I've spent a lot of time working on someone else.
Like it's a reminder, these are the things I need
to work on for myself. Beautiful. Yeah, and that's great,
and that's so well said, because this is the point

(19:12):
of doing all this is not to just shove people
in a category and say, oh my god, I'm a too,
there's nothing I can do. It's quite the opposite. You say, Okay,
now I understand this tendency. You know, whether you get
the brain stuff with our PDP thing or not, it's
just she said, Okay, that's my tendency. So my growth edge.
And that's a beautiful um term that David Daniels loved
to use. It was a big any grand person who

(19:34):
passed recently. Um it says as a two, my main
growth edge is don't lose my own needs. I should
go to the gym, I should do this, I should
do that. And also if Chelsea's trying to be a
little more independent, then you start getting irritated with that
and feel like she's she's pulling away from you, and

(19:57):
and well he is probably subconscious or the record, I am.
I am supportive for self sufficiency. I have enabled that
I would like. So it seems, well, we don't really
know what's going on behind the scenes, but I don't know.
I only know. And apparently our houseman Willie is onto
something too, because he came up this morning as sod
if you can make me a coffee, which was very weird,

(20:20):
but I appreciated it. But I mean, I'm trying to
become less infantilized, not more. Yeah, and this is what
this is the thing about it. You know, when we
match with people in relationships, like you know, you and
Brandon have a certain thing going, so you know you
actually may want to help Brandon by letting him be needed.
I mean, this is complicated, right, Okay, Brandon, you know

(20:41):
who's controlling who exactly? It's very at this point, it's
very whom's whom is controlling whom? Yes, yes, yes, zoom.
It's so confusing. Okay. So that's the helper, okay, and
the helper needs to work on what on self care?
So all of these numbers that we're going to go through,
you can be somebody who's unaware, or you can be
a self actualized number, which means you're aware of your shortcomings,

(21:04):
your growth edge and areas of improvement exactly. That's exactly right.
And then to not only think of shortcomings, think of
them as tendencies, so that you say, Okay, my tendencies
do not have empathy. Fine, so my growth edges build empathy. Fine,
and now that's going to be actually a strong suit
of mine. That's gonna be actually a real great characteristic.
So each of them when you work, when you become actualized,

(21:25):
it's awesome, right, yes, okay. So three is the achiever
or what sometimes called the performer performer Okay, yeah, because
I would have thought I was that one, right, So
this one, you know, here it says the success oriented,
pragmatic type, adaptive, excelling driven an image conscious. So I'll
give you just an example. You know, I was trained

(21:47):
in something called antiagram in the narrative tradition. Helen Palmer
and David Daniels started this thing. It's a beautiful way
of basically, um, you get together for you know, a
few days or a workshop or a week or whatever,
and all of let's say, in this case, the threes,
but you're doing for every time get up on a stage,
and then there's an interviewer who's training to be a

(22:08):
professionalist field who interviews let's say the threes. So in
this case, you know, it was now time for the
threes to get up right, the clock said two o'clock,
it was time for the threes to get up there.
None of them were up there, so the rest of us,
all the other numbers were sitting in the audience. There
was no one on the stage. This had never happened before.

(22:28):
Everyone is always punctual, especially the ones. And then we left.
We said, we bet they're all in the bathroom combing
their hair. So someone said, probably a seven, said let
me go check, and they ran to the bathroom and
sure enough, all the threes were in there making sure
their hair was just right. So that sounds like a perfectionist. Now, well,

(22:52):
it's a person who really cares. And this is where
it's still in the heart zone, right, So it's about relationships.
Someone who really cares how other people are going to
think of them, right, So like you would never see
me doing it, Like my daughter had to say to me, Dad,
you know you probably think it's selfless not to be

(23:14):
combing your hair. And I go, what do you mean?
She goes, do you never comb your hair? Do you?
I go no, not really? She goes, do you ever
look in the mirror? I go, well, actually not? She
probably she says, do you realize how selfish that is?
I said, what do you mean? She's a teenager then,
and she goes, it's selfish because go look in the
mirror and you'll see what I mean. You look like
you put your fingers in an electric socket. And you

(23:36):
may not have to look at yourself, but the rest
of us do. So go look in the mirror and
comb your hair. Right now, A three would never be
like that, three would have a comb. I never do.
I'm just not a three, right, so I don't. And
this is where she says selfish. I don't really care
what other people think about my appearance, as you probably
know because comments about my shoes. I try to match

(23:57):
my clothes as best I can, but I have color challenge.
So in any of it, the issue is the threes.
That's a different thing. There go to place. This is
the tendency, right is to say, are other people going
to accept me? And what are the ways they're gonna
accept you. They're gonna accept me by my appearance because
I'll be good looking. They'll accept me because if I

(24:20):
perform well, they'll say, wow, dan Is has done that
song really beautifully, or he's really great. So the difference
between the one that your point, I would care about
outcome and a three. And this is part of the
questionnaire we have in this book I wrote called the
Mindful Therapist. You can see in the chapter on traits
this whole thing outline with an interview you can do

(24:42):
with the questions from a PDP point of view. You know,
basically a one you say, if you're doing a project,
are you more concerned about the essence of the project
or how the project appears? And one says the essence
of it? I want everything to be exactly right, and
the three says, of course, I care about how to years.
So that's the difference. It's I want to impress others.

(25:05):
So the main thing is not how complete and comprehensive
the project is. Is It's not that that's a one
here for three, it's did you like me? They want
to be accepted accepted, that's the main It's a relational thing.
The three is not about relationships. It's about the thing itself.
So you know, you want to have like if you're
starting a company or whatever, you want to know who's

(25:27):
going to be a one doing the work that get
the projects just right. But then in you know, the
front officer who's designing your your space. You want a
three who says I like things to appear really nicely
comb your area. Right. So yeah, so that's the three.
And so the downside of three is if people don't

(25:48):
approve of me, I feel terrible. I feel really really bad.
And the classic question we asked for all these, if
you're going through this, is to say, when you were
in a lay adolescent or in your early adulthood, before
you had maybe any therapy or reading any aniogram books
or anything like that, what would you do when you're
in a most people which is I mean not people

(26:10):
who are listening to this. People are listening to this
probably read my book and are listening to well they
know a little bit about it. But I mean you
just say, before you really study this or had therapy
to change, when you were just yourself without much effort
to change when you're in a stressful situation. The classic
one I'd like to use is you go to a
gathering of people like a party, and you don't know anyone.

(26:30):
Where does your attention go? The one goes to are
things the way they should be? The two goes to
who's in need? That I can be helping. The three
goes to, are people going to be impressed by me?
So I need to say things a certain way so
people say, wow, that person is really whatever, smart, funny, um,

(26:52):
you know, whatever it is. I've impressed them as a
three in the party, right, So an unactualized three as
a prisoner to that. So I'm constantly trying to impress people,
whereas you know, an actualized three would say, yeah, it's
my tendency to go in a group situation and want
to be doing something that makes people happy. But I
want to do something that really actually also makes them

(27:12):
do well. So I could become an actor or a comedian,
or a musician or a you know, a politician, but
I'm trying to actually make the government policies better. But
I like being on stage because I like the applause
and that's okay, there's nothing wrong with that, and in fact,
all of us have a bit of that. Yeah, I mean,
nobody hates applause for themselves. Well, some people get embarrassed exactly,

(27:36):
but for the most part. You know, as as an adult,
you you know you can you can appreciate that if
people are cheering for you, it's usually a good thing.
I know some people loathe attention, but but think about
the difference. Let's say, and someone who says, I want
to do something where people applaud because they really learned
something and their lives are going to be better, and

(27:57):
I really am grateful that the interaction we just had
improved their lives versus I got up on stage and
I showed him how smart I am. I showed him
what a great dancer I am. You know, what a
great you know? And and that's the unactualized three. So anyway,
so there's a reason everyone is the way they are,

(28:18):
which when you feel that about people go, oh, I
get it. So I mean, this is what this has
helped me so much understand other people too, which is
what you told me initially. That understanding that you know
everybody's coming from a different spot. It's helpful information. Yeah, exactly.
So for the three, the feeling is I just want
to be at one with the Uterus. That's our view,
and the Uterus I thought it was the universe. I

(28:40):
know that's the joke. But the ideas you start in
the womb and you're at one with things, every one
of us come out and depending on your tendencies. You
come at different ways. That's it in a nutshell. But
the bottom line is for a three, I just want
to be loved. That's it so simple. And the way
I'm going to be loved is to impress you. And

(29:02):
if I'm not actualized, then I'm a prisoner to that.
If I'm actualized, I'm going to turn into my impressing
you is actually helping you, and I'm going to educate
you or make you deeply laugh about something that helps
you learn something about yourself, or you're gonna start helping others. Right,
so we can turn any of these tendencies into a
really great contribution to the world. Yeah, Randan, that's a reminder.

(29:24):
Would you um write down that I'd like to get
my uterus removed? Okay, we're gonna take a quick break
and we'll be right back. Okay number four. Is that
we're on number four? Yeah, the individualist or you know
some the words that are used the other words are
sometimes insulting. So I think I've intentionally forgotten this one.

(29:46):
I think this one is called romantic romantic. I know
force a couple of my close friends are for really okay,
and what do they say that their horror. They're very opinionated,
they're very um romantic, they're very sensitive, but they hold
on to this notion of romance in a way that
I can definitely see them separating themselves from others, like

(30:10):
way more than other people do. They're very romantic about
the notion of it all exactly exactly. So that's where
the room and they hold onto the past a lot.
That's my my perception of before. Yeah, so so there's
you know, it says the sensitive withdrawing type express of dramatic,
self absorbed, and temperamental. So you know, I was given

(30:30):
the the beautiful opportunity by David Daniels and Helen Palmer
to be a scientist at this meeting with fifty people
studying the instagram. So you know, it turned out that
we did an interview that let me do this research
interview that I'm trained to do. Um And then I said, okay,
everyone's gonna do the interview. Find they did it. I
got the results that was beautiful, really interesting. But then

(30:52):
I said, just to make this a public educational experience,
let's just pick one person randomly to talk about it.
So randomly, I just everyone a bunch of people raised
your hand and I just picked someone I didn't know
what her type was, and she was a four. So
then everyone goes, oh no, And I said, what, I
didn't know what the integram thinking when this is going
to go on for five or six hours. And the

(31:13):
idea is for this for sure, equations right, exact poets
and all sorts of beautiful, beautiful things. Now here's the
thing about this for they here it's called the individualist
or the romantic um. The idea that that's really helpful
for me to anchor this one and this this makes
it really see why it's hard. It's we're still in

(31:35):
the heart zone. Okay. So the two was the heart
zone for us it's sadness, you know, But in the
antigram system it's the heart zone and it's about external focus.
The three is kind of both inward and outward focus.
Now we're going to an inward focus of the heart. Okay,
So two, three, and four a heart. They're all heart
rights and sadness would be our view. So so in

(31:55):
separation distress. And here's the statement I once learned from
David Daniels that was so helpful. It's that there's a
feeling inside that other people are not like me. I'm unique,
not like I'm bragging about that, but just I actually
feel kind of lonely. There's actually no one like me.
I'm kind of alone. That's number one. Number two, that

(32:18):
other people have better than me. You know this statement,
the grass is always greener. On the other side, there's
always a feeling of something missing. Now our view is that, yeah,
you used to be in the womb, and now you're
out of the womb, something is missing. Before you didn't
have to breathe, you didn't have to eat, you don't
have to call out for anything. You were just at
one with the Uterus, know this oneness of being, and
now you've got to do all this stuff. So there

(32:39):
is something missing. That's our viue. But for A four,
it's like, oh my god, there's something missing. I have
this longing that will never be quenched. Ah, and you
great poetry about to do songs, do paintings, journal writing,
all this stuff, and when they're not actualized, they just
have this quality of self absorbed because there's something so

(33:01):
feel so wrong. So in therapy, if you're if you're
working with A four, what's so helpful about this system?
As you say that feeling you have that there's something
missing and something will always be missing, will likely always
be with you, and don't take it so seriously because
it isn't that there's something missing, it's just that your type.
And that is so helpful because people are always looking

(33:24):
for what's the thing missing, and in our system we
just say what's missing is you're not in your mother's womb,
you know, and they go, oh, I got it. I'm
longing for oneness. That is actually what I did have
when I was in the womb. See, this is why
our system we find so helpful, because you say, that's
what it's there for. Now, what is an unactualized for doing?

(33:45):
Then they're pining. They can be tendency to be depressed,
you know, be by themselves, and a lot of people
do talk about how they can be prone to alcoholism
and you know, really just want to drink their way
away from this unbelievable pain they can feel if they're
eyes so at it, you know. And in contrast and
actualized for could just be this exquisite romantic view of

(34:07):
life where you say, okay, yeah, I am a four
So I realized there's always gonna be this longing. But
I can turn that energy of longing into actually creating
art in the world beauty. I can write songs. I
can do you know, these incredible poems, and I can
express what is a common human journey, which is, you know,
we're all looking for something, and I don't have to

(34:29):
take my longing. And this emptiness that I feel as
absolute truth is just a feeling I have. And this
is why again, the Instagram is so cool because it's
an inside job. You might not know that that's what
this person is. So a lot of fours it's hard
to from the outside to figure it out because they're
having this internal experience. See. But I would think that

(34:51):
the most qualities that you're describing are easy to sense
in somebody else, especially number four. Somebody who self absorbed,
somebody who's dramatic, very temperamental, may be depressed, you know,
always not ever in a state of bliss. Well that's
probably because you're a lot more empathic than I am. Okay,
thank you, I was hoping you would say that today. Okay,
let's move on to number five. The investigator or the investigator, um,

(35:18):
the other word for it is the it's like the
expert but there's another way of saying expert. It's like
the I don't want to say dilettante because that's so insulting,
but I think some people use that term, but it's
the expert. Now, this one's really really interesting. So now
we've gone I shouldn't say that because that shows my bias.
They're all interesting. Are you a five? Dan? No? Well

(35:39):
not really? What number do you want to tell us?
What number? When we get to it, you'll you'll see
if you're gonna you know me pretty well. Right, So
so this is um, we're now moving from the heart
zone into the the the head zone. Actually, yeah, because
I said before that was the head. I was wrong.

(36:01):
It was the gut. It was anger and the gut.
See that's how I don't find this gut heart stuff
so helpful. But anyway, we're now going to the head.
So let me correct myself from before. The one is
actually the gut zone. But anger yet, right, you feel
that way, which actually that's why we don't use those
in our view. But anyway, so now you're moving to

(36:22):
the five, which is the head, and here it's actually
fear or anticipatory anxiety. So the five here it says
the investigator. The intense cerebral types. There's the head business, perceptive, innovative, secretive,
and isolated. You know, I don't think it has to

(36:42):
be like that, but that's what these descriptions can say.
So here's the idea of a five. Three things are
really important for what directs attention. This is what it's
all about. Where does your attention go when you go
to that party? So A five, The big three things
are I really care if I'm a five, I really
care about my time, my space, that's my space, my

(37:06):
personal space. And I really care about my knowledge. In
any way I can work these three things out. Two
really keep myself basically feeling like life is going to
be okay. I'm not on the woman anymore. I'm out
what do I do? So I'm going to be focused
very much on the inside world, like what's my knowledge?

(37:29):
So what I do is I learned everything about you know,
how to play volleyball, and I study it, and I
studied the game, and now I'm going to go take
every lesson I can. I'm playing volleyball, or I learned
how to, you know, do golf that way, or how
to sail that way or you know, so I dive
really really really deeply into becoming an expert. But then
after I do that, I said, well I got that.

(37:50):
Let me go into the next sport. Let me go
into the next sport, let me go to the next thing.
And I gather people around me who are experts. Right,
So if I were a journalist, I would be someone
is interviewing experts in something, right, and so now I
get my expertise, that's my knowledge. When I go to
that party, I actually feel very drained when I'm around

(38:13):
a lot of people. Right. So at this research opportunity,
I had interviewing all the five's. Amazingly, a lot of them,
um were experts in what they did. They had been
promoted to actually heads of companies. This was in Silicon Valley,
and they knew everything about their particular in this case,

(38:34):
they were tech companies that tech industry, and they had
people around them who were experts, so the company could
become like, you know, the established thing that we now
know in these big companies. You know, So these were
fives and you know, so their knowledge was protected. They
would have their office, so their space was protected. They
came in and out of that, you know, session. In fact,

(38:55):
none of them were at the retreat. They just came
to do a favor to David Daniels, you know, and
they came in UM. And what was so fascinating about
it was they role played what it's like to be
a five and to have human beings intrude on your
space and they just go get away, get a great again,
and they really needed downtime. So that social interaction can

(39:16):
sometimes be very draining. So the party analogy, you know,
what happens in you're at the party is they don't
stay very long at the party, or they just stay
in the corner of the party, or they find a
really smart expert in something at the party. So that's
the downside is you know, is that you can be
very isolated. UM. But in the the upside is when
they become actualized, they realize, wow, I can use my

(39:38):
focus in detail to develop an expertise in some area.
So I know everything about this area of history or
this sport or this, this that or you know, and
I use that in a very positive way. Right. So
that's the the upside of a five. And you know,
you can have people have tendencies for the five or
full on fives and just to be realized, I think

(40:00):
that's where you are can drive you in a beautiful way.
You can get a lot of knowledge. You can be
the person in a company that when you say, we
need to know about the future of this area of
our company's work, and a five will go, no problem,
and they dive in and they learn everything on the
planet known about that. And that's how you want on

(40:22):
your team, you don't. You want a little bit of everybody,
right and that and and so the five can do that, okay.
And the sex is the loyalist, Yeah, the six is
sometimes the loyalist or the loyal skeptic is sometimes what
it's called UM. And this is says the committed security
or your type engageing, responsible, anxious and suspicious. UM. You

(40:43):
know this is right. I think you're a sex. Yeah,
I'm suspicious of you saying that, and it makes me
a little anxious. So the idea of the six again
is you're in this head zone, right, and so fear
and anticipatory anxiety is what a six does. And the
funny thing about it, six and yes, that's where I landed.

(41:03):
I had no idea. I only knew one type. I wasn't.
And then when I went to Helen and David, I said,
all I can tell you is when I'm not, and
they were both sixes, and so they landed me in
this six zone. I got up on stage with the
sixes who were from all over the world. Right, these
are heads of hospitals, head of companies, heads of all
sorts of you know, they came from all the world
to do this week together. So I'm really a skeptical

(41:26):
Well obviously I'm six. I'm skeptic skeptical, so I'm skeptical.
I'm up there. But the one question the interviewer asked,
I couldn't stop laughing my head off because it's a
head type, right. They said, when you go to the
market and you're supposed to buy like a roll of
whatever paper towels, what do you do? And every single

(41:49):
one I was you said you buy seven rolls. And
then they said why, and they go, because you never
know when there's gonna be an earthquake or a disaster
and that story will close. So if you're bothering to
be there, you have to prepare for the worst case scenario.
And that's essentially what a six is is you come
out of the womb. Things aren't right, and you have

(42:09):
to think about what's the worst thing that can happen
and prepare yourself for it. So there's a lot of
focus on danger. That's the fear part, and there's a
lot of you know, when you go to that party,
you look at where the fire exits are. You look
at where the people are that could hurt you, people
that could protect you. If you go to like I
remember going to Dodger Stadium, I would see the police
in the stadium immediately, I know where all the exits

(42:32):
where I wasn't trying to do that. It's where your
attention goes. As a physician, being a six is really
really challenging, and it's also wonderful because when a patient
comes to see you, you know, when I was doing
you know, medical medicine, I would say, Okay, well, I
think it's probably you know, an intestinal flu, but what

(42:56):
if it's a life threatening problem in their intestines? And
I would always second guess things. And I got to
be known in the hospital when I worked in a
hospital as a person who would find things that were
so rare most human beings wouldn't even think about them.
But I would, and I'd find them and they would
actually sometimes be there and I'd save someone's life a

(43:16):
couple of times when I'm in pediatrics because I thought
outside the box. Because now I know because I'm a six.
So it's it's exhausting when you're not actualized because you
take everywhere you have seriously, So it can be really terrifying.
When you become actualized, you go, Isn't that amusing? So
actualization is more just like awareness, right, It's just being

(43:37):
conscious of your behavior and what you're where your attention goes,
like in a default mode exactly, I couldn't say better,
and the awareness of you're welcome, and then where you
go in the default mode you then can change. So
I don't have to buy seven rolls of paper towels anymore.
I can go there. I did this just yesterday. Was
so proud of myself. I went there and I just

(44:00):
bought two things. In the past, i'd buy you know,
twenty five things, right, I try to avoid markets altogether. Well,
there you go, in my opinion, if you think it's
best to just not go in. So that's the six
and there's two different variations, just so you know. The
fear can be so great. There's the anti fear types
and that Frandi six. Listening to this, you have to
be very careful and I certainly had to be really

(44:21):
careful in my life where because the fear is so great,
you just completely shut it off. And fear can be
your friend, you know. And so when you completely shut
it off, you do stuff that's really dumb then endangers
yourself for others. Because that was that's your style, you become.
I forgot what the word is, but it's anti fear.
There's another word for it, um, And you know, so

(44:42):
I had to realize that was a tendency I have.
So you know, if I was in Africa recently and
some colleagues who mine were going out near this waterfall,
really big, big guys you know, and I'm not that big,
but they were big and they were going on. They
were adventurers, so they said come and become to me,
and so I said, I could go. This would be
a fun adventure with the boys. Um, but you know,

(45:05):
look at that waterfall, it's like two ft they're like
ten ft from it. They're walking slippery rocks. Mm hmm.
Is this my six stuff making me not do it, Well,
I should do it. I should do it. That's the
anti fear stuff, you know something, I'm not gonna do it.
They went, and they slipped, and one guy was going
right down the waterfall, and and the women were with us.
I go, you know, I feel like a whim. Look

(45:26):
I didn't go with the guys, and and one moment goes,
you know what you are? I said, what she goes,
You're a man. Those are just little boys. That guy
almost died. Yeah, I would do I would have gone
with them, for sure, Brandon, would you have gone with them?
I would have gone with them. Yeah, okay, yeah, but
see I have no regard for my personal safety. So
you're not a six that's or an anti six. But yeah, yeah,

(45:49):
but I don't know. I mean, the impetus to go
join them is more ego based, probably like to be
that girl, you know that wants to have fun, that's dangerous,
that's adventurous. So that's a different situation Shin. Yeah, well exactly,
because it's like, do I really want to go to
the waterfall? Sort of, but I could go either way
too and be fine with not going. Okay, well, then
this is a good question based on her number being

(46:11):
an eight. If there weren't people there, would you still
go to the waterfall for yourself? Right? Good question for
maybe it depends. I probably wouldn't have pushed. I wouldn't
push the limit on my own. I would be I
pushed the limit when people are watching really interesting. I
mean that's been my pattern of behavior. Who knows, maybe
it'll be different now. But when you say they were watching,

(46:33):
it's because you'd want to impress them, like I want
to be the girl. That's well both like I like
to I like adventure, but I also like to see people.
I like people to see me like having an adventure.
I like that aspect too. Okay, So let's come to
that in just one second, because we're gonna do the
seven and then we're onto you eight. Right, So we're
going in sequence. So anything else about the six? Six? Loyalist? Okay?

(46:56):
So anxious, suspicious, responsible, engaging, security oriented, committed. Okay, So
that's a six little okay, And I'll say one thing
more about the six that's so interesting is um because
you're always looking for the worst case scenario. You don't
trust authority figures. You look at them and they say,

(47:16):
I believe I say this is true, and that's true,
and you just it's amazing. This is for all the
six is you just look at them, you go, I
don't believe that what you're saying is necessarily true, and
I will challenge it. And that can be an incredibly
when you're an actualized incredibly useful because then you look
for the actual truth, not what is presented to you. Yeah,
so that is a good bonus. I'm proud to be

(47:37):
a six. Okay, what sounds like it? Okay, well, this
sounds like a good time to take a break. So
the seventh, the enthusiast, sounds pretty sweet. It the fun loving, spontaneous, versatile, distractable,
and scattered those I mean for that just sounds like
a good time. That's what I thought I was originally,

(47:59):
and then I list I was an eight because it
eight is a little bit more cynical. I think, yeah, Brandon,
that's what I would have said you were to when
I read this. I would have gone for scattered, distractable, Yes, exactly, spontaneous,
fun loving, and busy. Yeah, you know the seven Again,
we're still in the head business, right, So the five

(48:20):
is the head internal six is they head both focusing
inward and outward. The seven is an outward focused head type.
So one of the characteristics of the seven is, you know,
they come out of the womb. They got to always
be planning things. What's the fun thing I can do?
What's the fun thing? What can I do next? What
can I do next? So, like at this meeting of
seven came to me and said, look, I live in
this other country in Asia. I love your approach. I

(48:42):
really want to do this project and I want to
do that project, and then we can have a third
project we do. And I said, those sounds so exciting.
And then he looks at me goes, they do, don't they?
I said, yeah, he goes, you realize we won't do
any of them. So what do you mean? He goes,
I'm a seven. I just come up with ideas. I
don't follow through. Okay, So it's that it's that no
follow through. Well, then I definitely know a lot of

(49:02):
people that are like that, you know, just but lots
of ideas, lots of ideas. And interestingly, one of the
Seven's had a broken leg and he was in a
cast and he was going to lose his mind, and
so he was up on the stage, and so people said,
what's going on? He goes as a seven. This is
what he said, as a seven. I always have to
be planning things, and I always have to have the

(49:23):
freedom to do whatever I want to do. Planning, planning, planning, planning, planning.
This broken leg is driving me mad because all I
want to do is do stuff and I can't do it.
I can't do it, and he literally was going to
explode out of his cast. A five, in contrast, who
had a broken leg, would say, cool, I can be
in my room, I can control my time, I can

(49:45):
read all the books. I want, no problem. So you
can see with the same broken leg for a seven
on on actualized seven would drive them mad. For five,
you say, what a golden opportunity to learn more interesting? Yeah? Yeah,
so know the seven. I know a couple of sevens,
and it's what I think. I know a lot of sevens.
You know what's fun about it is when they're actualized,

(50:07):
they realize, Okay, I have these twenty ideas. I know
I'm not good at following through, but I can actually
complete two of them, and I'm going to do that.
Whereas an unactualized one would come up with twenty ideas,
start each of the twenty and none of them get done.
The actualized seven would say, I'm an adventurer. I like
to do these things. This is great. I picked twenty ideas.

(50:29):
I'm doing too. That's who I am. I'm a seven. Okay.
Eight is the challenger or the fixer. Powerful, dominating type,
self confident, decisive, willful, and confrontational. How did you feel
when you heard that the first time? Sounds about right
for you? Powerful, dominating, self confident, decisive, I make yes, willful,

(50:49):
I can be indecisive, but I make decisions very quickly. Confrontational. Yes,
that's me. So let's talk about what you feel an
unactualized eight would have as their life versus an actualized eight.
Uh and eight would be on the move all the time,
you know, constantly going going going fast. Uh, lack of

(51:13):
you know, lack of empathy and angry and out like
you know, and and everybody knows it kind of like
a bully. H yeah, keep great. So so now we're
in the gut types. It's a gut reaction and for
us it's it's anger, right, and so you're you're expressing that.

(51:33):
So an unactualized one then would be dominated by anger,
not so much directed inwardly, because the the eight is
is this gut type that's outward focused and it's really
about um. That's our PDP system where we look in
word or outward and so for the eight, the anger
is all out there, which obviously can have be a
real problem for relationships. Yes, yeah, definitely a problematic. So

(51:55):
when I got a chance to interview a bunch of eights, uh,
they're not only on this stage, but then I hung
out with them afterwards in each of the types. But
when I'm having dinner with the eights, this is what
they beautifully said, and this is what you referred to earlier.
I said, what's the bottom line. These are actualized dates
who had come to a week long conference to study
their own type. So that's a pretty actualized person in

(52:16):
general is going to do that or he's trying to
be Here's what they said. Two things we cannot stand.
One is being vulnerable. Yeah, and related to that of
course is needing others. I can't stand that. And the
second thing is and this I couldn't believe they said this.

(52:37):
This is a picture around the table about ten eights,
all eights, right, having dinner with each other and me,
and they said, we have no empathy. I said, what
do you mean? I said, it's just not our our
go to. We can try to do it, but before
we're actualized we have none, and now we we really try.
We know. It's explains why you're so confrontational because you

(52:58):
don't understand other people they're doing things differently, or why
they're slower or they have a different approach because you
have no empathy. Exactly. So it makes you angry, right exactly. So,
So if you go with the PDP model, our view
of the anger, the source of it is used to
be in the womb. You're not there. You come out,
Oh my god, what about piste you come out, piste off.
I'm hungry. The world isn't doing what needs to do.

(53:19):
Parents suck, parents, everybody sucks, even if they're great. Everybody sucks, right,
so everyone's a disappointment and nobody gets there. There you go,
that's an eight, right, So that's the anger is. So
that's why for us in the PDP model, talking about
anger and then the gut type makes a lot more
sense because you can be a very cerebral eight, really smart.
I mean it doesn't. So that's why we don't use
those head, gut heart things. It's really here and anger.

(53:42):
Now here's the amazing thing an eight before they're actualized.
We'll do all sorts of things to protect the underdog,
but if that underdog doesn't stand up for herself for himself,
they get really angry at them. All done in a
million times? Okay, they you go, gone to battle for
somebody who couldn't defend themselves, and when it came time

(54:03):
for them to defend themselves they couldn't. And then how
did you react? Angry? There you go? Isn't Yeah, totally.
So that's classic for an eight. I don't know, or
to return the favor to me, like to you know,
to do the same to me in a situation like
if I go about for somebody and they weren't able
to go about for me in return, that would produce

(54:23):
anger as well. Right, So think about the unactualized eight.
Then we're anger's their go to feeling. The focus is
outward and there's there's not a cultivation of empathy, right,
So you're you're incredibly empathic, now, Chelsea, I'm gonna say that, well,
I mean it's forced empathy. Okay, but whatever, just trying
to overcorrect so that it lands somewhere in the middle.
And about six months, well, your report of your friends

(54:45):
as you're doing a great job feedback. But what I
want to tell you is that an unactualized eight. Then
imagine that combination no empathy and anger and this is
feeling like you better stand up for yourself. They project
their own things about vulnerability, right and needing other people,
and when this person isn't holding their own, bam, you

(55:09):
go after them. So they're scary. Yeah, yeah, they are scary.
For it's can be super scary whether they're your lover
or your parents, or your friend or your you know
whatever position of a boss what's it or your boss, Brandon,
can you say a little bit more elaborate, go beyond
your too concern about needing to be needed and you

(55:31):
can say it. No, she's pretty good with me. It's
other people. It's like people on the outside that I've
seen the confrontation with. Yeah, and what have you noticed?
But you also see the conversation with internal conflict. What
do you mean are you talking about me getting upset
with myself or okay, the law of times you can
see it on the outside. But then when you see it,

(55:51):
you know internally that they they're getting upset with themselves,
are angry with themselves about something. Well with with Chelsea,
How did the work out? Understanding this eight business help
you put a frame on it and understand what the
whole system was about how Chelsea was behaving. Yes, because
I see a lot of myself in her. So in

(56:12):
her behaviors when she gets upset about something, That's what
I mean when he says he's trying to control me,
he thinks that he I came from him and from
his loins. Right goes back to the uterus. Um, do
you still have your uterus? I do, but we'll get
them taken out at the same time, and don't worry. Um.
But so that was easy for me to see it
and rationalize those behaviors, but also know that she was
trying and that in those moments when she was already

(56:34):
frustrated and mad, knowing that it wasn't specific to maybe
that situation or to the person that it was her
reaction that was upsetting her, Like why couldn't I control
how mad I was getting her? Why couldn't I control
help set? That made me so think about what you
just said, and all the empathy that is feeling Chelsea's feelings,

(56:55):
trying to understand her perspective, um really making sense of
what's going on in her line. Those are all the
first three ingredients of empathy you know that you have
in a huge way. Right, So I'm a two through
and through. Yeah, there you go. So that's but that's beautiful, right,
So you can use these empathic things and when you
add the PDP model, you go, Okay, here's the deal

(57:16):
for all of us. We used to be just in
the state of being. We come out and now, oh
my god, it's a nightmare, right because now you have
to work for a living. You gotta breathe, you gotta
eat all the stuff. So for an eight, just to
go finish the eight up, you know, the idea of
being vulnerable and needing people. Just take those two things.

(57:37):
You go back to this passage from being in the
womb at one with the uterus, and now you're out.
You are piste off that you need other people. You're
piste off that you're vulnerable. Now if you take that
eight propensity of anger right, that's focused outwardly without the
empathy being built and I'll think about having to chet

(58:00):
right and what happened to you and how close you were,
So you combine that propensity you likely had and now
that trauma and loss you had, and the way the
family didn't support each other and stay empathetically connected with
one another right when that happened, and you can see
where you did the best you could right to try
to deal with it. That was your your eight nous

(58:23):
became your protective shield to the vulnerability and needing people.
So it's like an eight to the second power right
at sixty four? Good at math, very good, you're sixty
four exactly. So it was an extreme version of an eight. Yes,
it's amazing. I'm still alive. Okay, So it's actually amazing

(58:44):
Brandon is still alive. That's the amazing live and thriving,
alive and throbbing. Okay. Nine is the peacemaker. This sounds
like the best number because they sound easy going, self
effacing type, receptive, reassuring, agreeable and complace it. Yeah. So
now we're still in from the antiagram point of view,
the gut type. So the eight, not nine and one

(59:05):
are gut types. Right, So now that I don't know
how that helps us with these really, But anyway, that's
the Instagram term from our point of view, you know,
it is the still the anger type. It's an inward
and outward focus of attention. So it's kind of both.
And that's true of the nine and the six and
three whatever. There's a pattern here. But the point here

(59:26):
is anger for a nine is the key emotion that
should not be felt. That's the way to think about it.
Unlike the one who has anger driving the inward lea.
They've got to get things done in a certain way.
Eight the anger is expressed outwardly. The nine, it's angered
that should not be experienced, so they do everything they
can to make sure that people around them are getting along,

(59:49):
get along, you know. This is why it's called the
peacemaker and their vulnerability, just like with the two, and
that's these are called lookalikes. Just like the one and
the three can kind of look alike and be hard
to tease a part, the nine and the two can
can be lookalikes too. The difference is, you know, the
nine does give up self care just like the two. Um,

(01:00:12):
but but there go to things as anger. So like
when I've interviewed you know, thousands of people in in
large rooms. I'll say, you know, how many of you
have a go to place of anger versus sadness versus
fear over people say one of those is my go
to place. So for a nine, anger is the thing,
whereas it too, it's really the sadness. So that's part

(01:00:33):
of that helps you distinguish it. The other thing is
that a nine is really trying to constantly look at
the large picture and they're always taking care of a
whole group system, whereas the two is more like one
on one. I'm going to really meet your needs and
be a lot of people are one on one. That's
another personality traits. Some people function great in groups and
some people can only have one on one conversations exactly so,

(01:00:55):
and that's a whole Another way as we can look
at you can divide this again is who's a group
person called social, who's a one on one person like
a relationship like this, and who's it more you know
what's sometimes in the Instagram system called self preservation or
you know what's internally focused like a five can tend
to be that way. But you can have any of

(01:01:16):
these nine numbers then be a group. You can have
a group nine. You can have a one on one nine,
and you can have a self preservation nine. So that's
a whole other layout complexity. Yet in fact, that way
of dividing it, we could have a whole another conversation
about that. So the nine, what's the downside of a
nine is you give up your own needs, um, because

(01:01:36):
you're trying to make everybody get along um. The classic
phrase about that is, you know, when you're packing for
a trip, you pack for everyone else in the house,
and then you go to the airport, you forgot to
pack your own luggage. That's a nine, right, you know.
And and the upside is you can be an incredible
mediator where you can walk in a room and you
can feel what's going on all around and has the

(01:01:57):
whole system need to come to some kind of clear
decision where everyone is getting a good way that they're
all happy. So that's why it's called a peacemaker, you know,
a mediator. And so each of these types, including the nine,
when you're actualized, you can be a part of a group,
part of your own life, your inner life. That's fantastic.

(01:02:18):
So that's that's what we said. There's none of them
that are bad, but each of them have unique challenges
called downsides or pitfalls, and then therefore a specific kind
of growth edge for your type. And when you realize that,
then the specificity of your internal growth can be so
helpful because you go, Okay, this is what I'm working on.
So Brandon doesn't need to work on growing more empathy.

(01:02:41):
He needs to work on growing more self care. You
need to work and growing more empathy, and you've been
doing that. It is absolutely beautiful to see. Okay, well
that those are the nine numbers, Brandon, do you have
any questions? I do? I have one final question. So now,
for anyone who's listened to this who wants to try
and self assess, say they come down to two numbers,
what what is the way that someone would conclude what

(01:03:02):
they actually are if they feel torn between two? Well,
this is a great question, Brandon, because as a scientist
and as a clinician, what I'm going to say is
that many people have different elements of different numbers. So
let's say you've come down to two and you're doing
the assessment. Just live with it. Don't feel like you

(01:03:23):
have to land in only one. And there's a reason
for that one is we don't have the research to
say everyone's just one. We don't have any research for that.
So if you find yourself in two, that's you great,
look at the growth edges of both, that's a great question.
What kind of research is there to back this up
for people who may be listening and saying, oh, because
you know when I when you told me about the instagram,

(01:03:44):
I was like, is this astrology adjacent? Or is this
like numerology or any of those things that I don't
find a lot of weight. And that's my own personal opinion,
But what is the research behind all of this? So,
in a nutshell, it was an idea that was inspired
by um o'chasa and Noronho who came up with this system.

(01:04:08):
They then started teaching it and people said, oh, that
sounds about right with my personal experience. Oh sounds about
right with my clinical experience. And then um one of
those students, Helen Palmer, with David Daniels, said let's study
it by having people get up on stage who identified
their types, and then they would just do these narratives. Basically,
this is the research where they're incredibly similar patterns. If

(01:04:32):
you were an eight or nine or a one or
two or three, and you just saw this just by
literally collecting thousands and thousands and thousands of stories in
the narrative tradition UM. Then there have been a couple
of surveys done of people who have volunteered for it,
where they found they've fit into these patterns. But my
worry about that as a scientist is those are people

(01:04:54):
who are already interested in the instagram. So it could
be that people uninterested in the pogram are uninterested because
it doesn't match their experience and it's not relevant. So
we need we need what's called epidemiological research to see
if you could apply these questions. Now, I as a
therapist with my clients, patients you know, who don't come

(01:05:17):
to me because I'm in any grand person, because I'm
not known by that at all. You know, so far,
it's been universally helpful to say, here's our PDP model.
Do you fit somewhere in one of these nine? Maybe
all of the nine? Oh I'm really these three? Okay, great?
Oh no, actually I'm probably more of these two. And
so it's always been helpful. So I think there's a
there there, you know. I just think the science needs

(01:05:39):
to be doing epidemiology, not just some people who think
it's cool and interesting and so we can ask these questions.
We actually have, uh wish to take these six twin pairs,
some are identical twins, some are fraternal twins, and then
apply our model of the PDP, which is inspired by
the Instagram, but as you can see, it's different, and

(01:06:00):
then see are identical twins more likely of the same
type then fraternal twins, which would be more like just siblings.
We have we're working like Denise Daniels and Laura Baker
are genetics of personality experts, and so we're going to
try to really do the science of it. It doesn't
exist right now because the professional world of mental health

(01:06:20):
has not embraced the Instagram. It's really just a popular
model um and you know, there are lots of ways
of talking about the Instagram that are very unscientific, that
are people's opinions. I think the Instagram and the narrative
tradition is so useful because there it's just literally what's
called naturalistic data. That is, you take thousands and thousands
of people, hear their stories and then you say, wow,

(01:06:43):
something's going on here. We don't know exactly what, but
something's going on. Great, Okay, Well that's all very helpful
to break down, a very easy breakdown, And you guys
can go online and find more about this, or you
can get that any gram book that I like, the
David Daniels one, which kind of broke it down for me.
It's a great thing to take away for a weekend
with your family or you know, with friends, and everybody

(01:07:03):
can try and to assess which personality type they are,
which is what we did in Mexico one weekend with
eight girls and we clung to this book like life rafts,
and then of course we went away. I've never seen
any of those girls since, so I have no idea
how anybody's doing. But yeah, so thank you Dan, thanks
for breaking down the angiogram for us and the PDP model,
your version, which is the PDP model A pleasure, right,

(01:07:25):
And yeah, and that's it. That's all we've got for
you today. Guys. There you go go, go get your
books and figure out what your fucking problem is. Well,
you can buy my book, Life Will Be the Death
of Me is available in stores now, the New York
Times number one bestseller. Thank you Brandon and Dan Siegel
has also written a lot of books, so if you
look him up, um you can find a lot of
books about mindfulness and adolescent brain development and blah blah

(01:07:49):
blah blah blah. And I have added stand up dates.
I am doing stand up in Atlanta on June, Montclair June, Westbury,
Long Island June nine. Their tickets still available for Westbury, St. Louis, Missouri, Minneapolis, Nashville,
New Orleans, Brisbane, Australia, Sydney, Australia, and Melbourne, Australia. We

(01:08:10):
will continue to add dates, but these are the latest dates.
So if you want to see me do stand up,
you can go to Live Nation dot com or Chelsea
Handler dot com. And we'll be back next week with
my guest, who is Sean Hayes, who came on the
road with me for my shows in Chicago. Life will
Be the Death of Me as a production of i
Heeart Radio. For more podcasts from my Heart Radio, visit
the i Heeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you

(01:08:31):
listen to your favorite shows.