September 8, 2025 • 57 mins
Dear Virgins, we are back in your feeds for a very special reason: Rose's novel BEST WOMAN is finally being published this month! In this hard hitting interview, Fran and Rose discuss her novel, what inspired it, movie trancasting, and so much more!
If you're in NYC (or nearby) you MUST come see Rose launch her book at The Strand (gag) on 9/23 in conversation with Harron Walker. Get tickets here.
You can also see Rose in Baltimore on 10/2, Los Angeles on 10/8, and Boca Raton (gag) on 10/18.
Can't make it to see Rose in person? Pre-order BEST WOMAN now and gain access to an exclusive video interview with Peyton Dix.
Join us on Patreon for sporadic bonus episodes, we miss you!
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Go. Welcome to NPR. I'm Terry Gross and I'm Terry Grosser.
Is Terry Gross even doing Is she still doing the pod?
I don't. She could be dead for all I know.
Are you going to storm out of this interview the
way Adam Driver stormed out of his Terry Gross interview?
(00:21):
Is that we're calling this an interview? Yes? Okay, this
is it. This is a stop on your pressed for
This is the like a virgin special edition, special edition
RSS feed drop, the rare RSS feed drop, as long
as we can pressure Phoebe into posting it because neither
of us know how to do that. Yeah, and it will,
(00:43):
it will, Yeah, and you know this, this uh formally
will be the official official Friend and Rose interview about
a book called Best Woman by Rose DomU. It is
available and purchasable for pre order on bookshop dot org
(01:04):
among other websites. You also, if you're in New York,
you have to come and see Rose and heron Walker
in conversation at the Strand on September twenty third, really
chic date, September twenty Russia. You can get your take.
I think there's like a ticket option with a book
and a ticket option without a book available in Rose's
(01:27):
link tree, in her bio or a social Bible. Will
also put a linked tickets in the description of this
podcast episode, so you can mosey on over there to
get your ticket. I want to see you there. I'll
be there. There's also a Los Angeles event there is
I'm going to be in Los Angeles doing an event
at Annabelle's Book Club on October eighth I'm also going
(01:51):
to be at Greedy Read's in Baltimore on October second, Baltimore,
and I'm going to be in both gratone on October eighteenth,
and literally my entire family and all my mom's friends
will be there, which I love. And if you're not familiar,
I mean Deer's Virgins. I know you've heard us talk
(02:13):
about Rose's book in some capacity or another, basically every
other episode of the podcast. You know we've been edging.
We've been edging, edging edge Lords. We are. If you're
not familiar already with the premise of Roses book, it
does take place in Boca Raton, Florida, or large large
(02:33):
portions of it take place in book Raton, Florida, where
Rose is from. I kind of want to give. I
want you to give us a little summary, but like,
can you start by telling us what Booka Ratone, Florida is,
Like maybe how it influenced your malgoth persona, your your
personal malgoth persona, and then I guess, kind of how
(02:55):
does it become the backdrop for this book. Boca Ratone
is a very weird place, which is why I always
wanted to write a book that was set there. And
there's a lot of old people there, So that's Heaven's
waiting room, God's waiting room. Yes, I know, I've made
that joke on this podcast several times. Yeah. I mean
(03:19):
it's a lot of like very affluent people, a lot
of old people, a lot of Jewish people. Ariana Grande
is from there. Ariana Grande is from there, as am
I mother Teresa's from there. It's a very weird place
to be a child, yes, just because everyone so old.
Like the neighborhood I grew up in, there were no
(03:41):
other children in. You had no peers, no peers, you
only had old. I only had old. So I do
think that really explains a lot why I am the
way I am kind of does. And there's this kind
of with the again, we're going to get into the
plot of the book. But the character of this book,
(04:02):
Best Woman kind of uh comes in. It kind kind
of interfaces with the kind of JENSI quad the kind
of on we of is that's how it's pronounced right
on on we Yeah, I've did. I used to pronounce
that anwie yes, yes, the on wee of returning to
(04:23):
your childhood, returning to your like childhood bedroom, or returning
to your returning to your hometown, and the just like
the great sadness, the great and unamable sadness that it
kind of instills in you, yes, and also the string
and the kind of immediate regression that happens when you
(04:43):
return home. I noticed for so long that every time
I would visit home, I would immediately I would like,
within eight hours, I would become fifteen again, and I
would be like, oh mom, And that is such a
tense experience. It's so weird to go somewhere where everybody
(05:06):
knows you, but like no one actually really knows you. Yeah.
And it's like so that the primary character, Julia, she
kind of comes home specifically for a wedding, and in
she's kind of immediately reminded of like a lot of
(05:28):
like I want to say, like ghosts. That sounds like
a little more dramatic than it actually is. But there's
a lot of these kind of ghosts of her, of
her past, of her growing up, of just like what
it felt like to be in Boca that I think
are very I just related to them part, even though
because I'm from a suburb, I don't know if Bocaca. Okay,
(05:49):
so I'm from this I'm kind of from the suburbs.
I was born on the South Side, was raised in
the suburbs. And there's this just kind of like really
weird dissonance that you experience, especially I mean definitely as
a queer person, especially as a transperson reinstating yourself in
this context. Anyways, Okay, I'm being very terrogressed right now,
but will you do me the honor of giving a
(06:12):
plot summary for the people that are not awareer of
the of course. So Best Woman is about Julia Rosenberg,
who is a trans woman in her late twenties living
in New York City. She is a couple of years
into her transition. Right before she started transitioning, her brother
got engaged and asked her to be the best man
(06:35):
at his wedding, and then when she transitioned, she became
the best woman, the best woman. At the beginning of
the novel, she's a couple of weeks out from the
wedding and going to get her best woman dress, best
woman dress. And I've never actually done this thing that
(06:55):
happens in the book, which is like the appointment to
get your dress that everyone has to wear. Yeah, ever
done that either, But I've watched a lot of says
to the dress, so I feel like I have an
understanding of it. Okay. So she finds out that early
in the novel that the maid of honor in her
brother's wedding has dropped out. Slash been kicked out because
(07:20):
she was uncomfortable with the idea of walking down the
aisle with Julia because she is transphobic, and now replacing
the maid of honor is Kim Cameron, Julia's number one
ultimate high school crush, who is a very hot, sexy,
confident lesbian. As a reader, this is this is the
(07:45):
part where you realize that this book is an entry
into the sapphic kind of romance canon. Yes, it is
truly a lesbian romance. What's a bisexual Bulia. Julia is
by sexual and she does. She does have a male
love interest in the novel too, who's more of just
(08:05):
like a hometown hookup. Because she is she is a
chaotic bisexual slut and I love her for that. So
what the tension of the novel kind of hinges of is.
During an early interaction where Julia has seen Kim again,
(08:27):
she makes the mistake of telling this little white lie,
which is that her family is actually more transphobic transphobic
than they actually are. They're actually pretty accepting. She does
(08:48):
this in a very misguided bid to gain Kim's sympathy
to her. Yes, because of an interaction that they have,
and and because she is kind of at this place
in her transition where she feels like she has accomplished
a lot of her goals and feels affirmed in a
(09:11):
lot of ways. But this girl kind of represents this
like last hurdle of her womanhood, which is this lesbian
who she was obsessed with in high school and knew
she would never be able to get because at that
time she presented as male. And so she has this
idea that if she's able to successfully you know, kind
(09:33):
of con this girl into likely lightly but con into
being interested in her romantically. Then that will be proof
that she really is the woman she has always wanted
to be and seen herself as. This is very much
inspired by my best friend's wedding, and you know, the
(09:58):
idea of a very unlikable protagonist who lies and makes
bad decisions to get what she wants. And I really
wanted to see a trans character be able to do
that because I feel like in a lot of a
lot of media depictions of trans people they have to
be either like saints or victims or a murderers, And
(10:21):
I wanted to see a really complicated trans protagonist who
you just kind of want to shake and go what
are you doing? Like are you doing? I very much
see Julia as like a little sister. I'm like, what
is wrong with you? So that is the setup, and
then the bulk of the novel takes place over the
wedding week in book ratone, as Julia reunites with her family,
(10:43):
all while staying connected to her friends back in New
York City who are like very much her chosen family.
And there's a really big cast of kooky characters, shenanigans, En, Sue,
and there's some steamy hookups and some very painful growth
(11:05):
for lots of the people involved. I don't want to
give too much of the book away, but I want
to dig a little bit more into the plot in that. So,
as you mentioned, there's this the the thematic tension kind
of starts with this, uh this, like, I guess, like
(11:32):
not so great choice of emotionally manipulating her high school
crush Kim Cameron at a cheesecake factory. And a dream
of mine was always to set a scene in a
novel at factory. And I did it, and you did it,
and it felt like I was there. Maybe we never
had our cheesecake factory day, remember when we were supposed
to have our our like a virgin holiday party, but
(11:56):
we couldn't because what COVID something like that like that.
But yeah, so so the the all of the tension
kind of starts in this moment where like Julia decides
to lie and save her family's a little transphobic, and
it kind of works immediately and Kim Cameron has all
(12:17):
of this cis guilt that like she like soaks the
conversation and being like, oh my god, you I mean
she's not like you, poor thing. But the affect is
very like you poor thing. It's very the subtext is
very You're so brave, and you're so brave, and oh,
I want to take care of you, and oh, this
is like maybe feeding already a kind of funny romantic
(12:40):
dynamic as well, because it is immediately I would say
it's I think it's pretty clear from jump that Kim
is into Julia, like she kind of said she she
all but says that that's a possibility, but it's also
it's like like with in terms of like her actions,
but it's also like she doesn't. It's not immediately, do
(13:01):
you know what I mean? Well, it's I think it's
more so that Kim's interest is very clear, but Julia
can't or won't let herself believe it. She can't trust it,
and she thinks that this manipulation of the truth is
(13:23):
kind of justified because this girl will never organically like
her when the evidence is staring her right in the face.
And you know, I don't want to give too much away,
but there is a point like through the novel where
it is pretty clear that Kim is interested in her,
and even knowing that, Julia still continues on with her
(13:47):
deception because she is an incredibly anxious, insular person. Like
that was one of the most fun parts of the novel, was,
you know, it's toll from first person perspective, and you
spend so much time in Julia's head. She really overthinks everything.
(14:09):
That's one of the ways in which she is like me.
And even with the proof of all of these different things,
her her family's acceptance, this girl's interest staring her in
the face, she still is seeing demons around every corner,
(14:29):
and what is the name? So if so, she lies
and she says her family's not that accepting. It's more
so that it's more so that she doesn't correct Kim
when she makes a sort of assumption. And I think
that's why Julia feels kind of almost like self righteous
(14:54):
about it, is like, well, she already assumed, and so
I'm just not correcting her, And it was her fault
for assuming in the first place that I was some
like poor little tranny that she needed to save. And
the real life nature of Julia's relationship with her family
is kind of more like, you know, mom and Dad
might might not have been totally understanding of it initially,
(15:17):
but ultimately really really understanding. She also has an older
brother and two twin siblings, two younger twin siblings. The brother,
I think I could say is like the most accepting,
but on the hint of this lie, Julie kind of
(15:37):
positions him as maybe the least accepting kind of Yeah,
she really throws him under the bus, the darkest lie. Yeah,
that is the darkest lie because with the rest of
her family, you know, like, what I really wanted to
explore is this nuance of queer acceptance where your family can,
you know, say all the right things and do the
right things, but there's still kind of a stinky vibe
(15:58):
of like, you know, it's still all a little conditional,
the way that you use a she her pronoun with
an emphatic kind of or it's like, I only see
you as a woman if you do these certain things
that I expect a woman is supposed to do. And
with Julia's brother, Aidan, he really is the one in
her family who has embraced her identity the most, and
(16:23):
maybe even more so than well no, with her mother
there her transition did bring them closer in a way,
and with her and Aiden, they've always been close and
Aiden's Aiden's he's her younger brother, so like a young
oh and with Aiden, like they were always close and
so her her transition really changed nothing about their relationship,
(16:45):
which is like such great proof to her that she
has the support she is looking for and why it
makes it all the harder to justify what she's done.
And that is the place I wanted her to be.
I really wanted the reader to be really frustrated with Julia,
(17:09):
because that's fun, yeah, and like, well, that frustration is
really I think that frustration is the thing that is
like perhaps in my experience of reading the book, the
most interesting part of it, which is that like you know,
her her mom and dad are like very accepting now,
but they've come a little ways to get there, and
(17:33):
so there's still this like there's this tension. There's just
feeling like the certain the way the way her mom
uses that she her pronent still feels a little a
type of way, or that this these very little ways
that SIS people, SIS family meverse can still disappoint us
even when they're trying, creates this like negative kind of
(17:55):
foil to it that I think, and sometimes it's the
trying that feels hard, like like what like because like
sometimes like the lack of effort is the effort, you know,
when someone is not making it clear that there's something
different or weird or quote unquote special about you, versus
(18:18):
when someone is clearly putting an effort, when there's an
emphasis on the she or the girl, or when assist
girl is like hey lady, you know like that that
is almost more hurtful than an out as would rather
like them. Yeah, it's funny, but like I the I
(18:42):
think in throughout the whole book, you depict something that
I've never really seen in any media before, not to representation,
but like it's it's something that I've never really seen
depicted before, which is that it's this transgender urge to
play up your trauma or oppression or to balloon that
(19:06):
frustration inside of you to a degree that feels manipulative
or punitive to those around you, you know what I mean.
Like it's like it's this thing where you're kind of
like you're like, oh, I am the victim, I'm the victim,
or these are my perpetrators, and in reality it's like
really really not that dynamic is not actually real, Like
(19:29):
it's it's much more nuanced than that, but it also
comes from a real place because when your trands like
you do, live in this constant fear of you know,
the turf around the corner, constant victimhood, and your marginalize,
you're minoritized in every interaction, and so you can't help
but expect that from people to an unhealthy extent, and
(19:52):
it actually can lead to being very unfair to people
who are not giving you that energy at all. Yes, exactly.
And I think like Aid and the Brother is maybe
the primary example of this. There's almost even a level
of it that comes from Kim who kind of I
mean as a reader, I immediately had these like alarm
(20:12):
bells in my head about how the Crush would speak
about transness or just like acceptance in general. We have
this like movie, this like after school special idea like
trans acceptance, so that SIS people can have a trans
acceptance that is like very grading. Okay, there's also a
(20:34):
kind of wait, what is even There's there's some sort
of slang term for like trade you have at your hometown.
What is it? It's it's just like like a town hookup.
It's like an old flame. It's kind of like basically
Julia has this old flame named Ben Ben who is
her brother's friend brother and one of the grooms men,
(20:55):
who is someone who feels like comfortable and life just
one is one of those hookups that like just knows
your body, and so hooking up always feels like easy
and giggly and fun. Well, and also the special thing
for her is they were hooking up before she transitioned
right right, and so he's been this like constant in
(21:17):
her life and someone who was equally attracted to her
in both presentations. So that is really comfortable. Like I
think at one point I wrote that like hooking up
with him was like putting on a pair of like
the perfectly worn and old jeans, you know, which is
such a which is such a goal. When you have
(21:38):
a person who is like you're just like very comfortable
around can get off with. It's like really easy, you
don't have to put in too much effort. They know
you really well, they know your body. Kind of kind
of goals. It's been so long since I've had an
old Jean's hook up, but it's like it's almost too comfortable.
(21:58):
Like Julius still is like she she understands that if
she was like kind of a simpler person. She could
like let that be enough for her and like let
herself love this person. But she's not simple. She's not
a simple girl. She's very complicated. Sweet Home Alabama. Yeah,
it's sweet of Alabama. I mean everything is sweet Home
(22:20):
Alabama to me. Sweet Homo Alabama, Sweet Homo Alabama, three
sweet trans Sweet sweet Home Trallabama, Tranabama. What we're like
the what we're like the most? Okay? Actually, no, no, The
question I want to ask actually is what changed? Because
(22:41):
you know, I was like with you in like cafes
in Los Angeles when you were writing the first drafts,
in the first chapters of this book and somewhere along
the years long process. Because how many how many years
did it take you? It's been a little over three
years since I started writing the book, Okay, so but
you completed the manuscript like a year you know, yeah,
a year and a half ago. Okay, so it's like
(23:02):
two and a half years of writing essentially in that
two and a half year process. What changed? Like? What
was there? Is there? Like it doesn't have to be everything,
but like, what's something specific, whether like a plotline or
character or a dynamic or I know that the ending
changed that you don't need to share that, But is
(23:23):
there something else about when you were, like, you set
out to write this book and it ended up being
that book. Yeah, I think it started off as more
of a kind of cut and dry romantic comedy and
it ended up being much more of a family drama
(23:45):
and coming of age novel because the romantic comedy was
really kind of like the like chocolatey rapper around a
sort of more like bitter center that was this like
exploration of family and identity and growing up and love
(24:08):
and kind of like lures you into a book that
I hope like has some pretty deep things to say.
It does about all of those things it actually really does.
I mean the family drama, well, the thoughtfulness of a
family drama is really in the book when she when
(24:28):
her inner monologues kind of pop off. She has like
a range of like inner monologues about transness, acceptance, family presentation, love,
et cetera throughout the book that are really really beautiful
in my favorite parts to read. When you were writing it,
you had quite a lot of references. Obviously, we've referenced
my best friend's wedding. I think we talked about Red,
(24:48):
White and Robe but at one point, even though they
have virtually nothing to do with each other. But the
big one was actually Garden State a way, I don't
wait talk to me about that. So, I mean, Garden
State is one of my favorite movies, and I revisit
it quite often. Actually, today's kind of a perfect day
(25:09):
to watch it, because it's like Rainy. That was in
mind a lot, because that is a movie that is
about coming home for a family event. In that case
it's a funeral. In this case it's a wedding. But
the idea of forcing yourself back into a life that
you have outgrown and but also still being able to
(25:31):
find the beauty in that former life and some kind
of comfort in it while knowing that you have still
transcended it. And also you know that the family and
that is Jewish, and you know this Julia is Jewish.
Her family is very culturally Jewish, and so that is
a big part of the novel as well. Truly likes
(25:54):
Cafelta fish wait right yeah, which is famously disgusting. It
is famously discuss and she does. There is a vomit
scene early in the scene is really satisfying. I need
to see that as a movie. You also reference wait,
what is it for wedding? Four Weddings and a Funeral?
What it was that? Again, I've never seen it, I
don't think, or if I have, I don't. It's some no,
(26:17):
not what's the movie I'm thinking about about a funeral?
I'll remember later. Four Weddings and a Funeral is a
Richard Curtis movie. He made Nodding Hill and kind of
all those British romantic comedies with Hugh Grant. It stars
Hugh Grant and Annie McDowell and it is a movie
(26:38):
where you experience this group of friends as they go
to over the course of a couple of years, four
different weddings and one funeral. And there very much is
a chosen family in it. There's a lot of you know,
like sexy romantic drama, some lying and manipulation. There is
(27:00):
some like very intense sadness with you know, the funeral
of it all. And it was a movie I had
never watched until I started writing the book and was
like actively seeking out romantic comedies about weddings to sort
of be inspired by. And that was definitely a big one.
Any other because okay, so I'm basically trying to paint
(27:22):
for the consume, for the consumer of this book, sorry
to be all sales. It's like, if you like for
weddings in a funeral, you like best No. This is
literally how we're marketing the books. I would also say
I would also say my big fact Greek wedding, yes,
because of the the kookie crazy family who are very
much like a huge like, this isn't a book where
the family are on the sidelines. There are a really
(27:44):
active part of the story, as are Julia's friends who
are her family. I also the number of times I
brought this up on like A version is embarrassing. But
then in real life starring Steve Carrell never seen and
Juliette Binoche stunning family drama where you're always trying to
get me to watch a movie with Julia Boch and
we should watch it right now. Uh yeah, what any
(28:08):
any other films or books that could be comps to
this where it's like, if you like this, you like
Best Women. I think if you like well, I know,
you know the the authors that that my publisher really
like trying to compare it to or people Casey mcwisten
did blurb the book, Yell, Dolly Alderton, Emily Henry. Yeah,
(28:33):
I did get some really great blurbs from some authors
I so deeply admire and respect, like Casey Mccuisten, Kristin Arnett,
J P. Brammer. I was very touched by their their
thoughts about my book, and Tory Peters Casey. But Casey
(28:57):
said irresistibly fresh, bright, funny, and with singular voice, this
is the kind of romance I've been waiting for, and
we're so lucky to finally have it. Wow. Anointed by
Jesus themselves, incredible, anointed by queer romance. Jesus, queer romance Jesus.
Casey mcquest has anointed and blessed this but read this
book and blurbed it. I want to know, Wait, were
(29:20):
there any Is there anybody that like you went out
to that didn't that didn't blurb them? No, I got
you got all your blurbs. Yeah, what I didn't know
that you've got a hundred Yeah, I mean Tory, Tory,
Casey and Kristen were like my holy trinity of blurbs,
and they all said yes, and we're so happy to
do it. That's that's been one of the really amazing
(29:41):
things about doing this is how generous other authors have
been with their time, with their advice. Uh, Like, I
had coffee with Haley Jacobson a couple of weeks ago.
Haley Jacobson wrote another queer novel called Old Enough that
is really like a campus novel also is very much
(30:04):
a coming of age story, and she we had this
this coffee date because we met at the Meta Pride
book Fair this summer, the Meta Pride book that I
did my first ever reading of Best Women at. And
we had coffee and she like gave me some really
amazing reassurance about just like the process of publishing a
(30:28):
debut novel, and like the fact that it's not all
about pub day or pub week and that novels have
such a longer lifespan and really can like build up
a following over that, and also just like navigating what
it's like to have a book that is so like
identity first and that's the way that it's going to
(30:49):
be perceived and talked about, which was so helpful. Well,
that's the I mean, that's the kind of annoying thing
about marketing a book with transcaracter in it or queer
characters in it is that it immediately becomes trademark LGBTQ
bookshelf section of borders. But you know what I was
really happy and kind of gagged about was that my
(31:12):
team at no point was like, Okay, well, we have
to publish your book in June. It's a queer book.
Well no, no, no shade to queer authors who do
publish their books during Pride month, but it does. It
does feel very much like a siloing of queer art
that it's only important at the time when people are
(31:33):
kind of trained to pay attention to it. And the
fact that my publisher really believed that my book had
mainstream appeal and legs and like didn't want me to silo.
Didn't want to silo me. Like that meant a lot,
which it does. I mean, I read, I finished. It
took me months to read the book because I famously
(31:55):
can't read, but I did finish it with Rose Damu
at Fire Island at a Beautiful Fire Island share courtesy
of Joel Kim Booster. And I remember closing the book,
I had like, well you saw me like gasp multiple
times because the ending has some gags and some twists,
(32:15):
and it is a roller coaster. There was a there's
a there's a moment where I truly, truly audibly gasped.
But all that to say, I immediately wanted to I
immediately started fan casting it, and I was like, what
has do you have aspirations for this book to be
(32:36):
a film? I would love. I would love if it were.
I have, we have interests I have, I have film
and TV agents. Who are you know sending me around
to meet people to talk about that. I think it
would be so cool to see this movie, this book
that was inspired by romantic comedy films, to become a film.
(32:56):
I also think the state of romantic comedy movies right
now is pretty die and this could be a good
injection into that. Yeah, my dream would be, of course
that because this is inspired by my best friend's wedding.
If Julia Roberts were to play the mother character, you're
gonna say, Julia so sickening Julia Roberts or maybe Sarah
(33:22):
Jessica Parker could play, could play Dana Jessica Parker wasn't
Oh no way, no, she wasn't. She wasn't, she wasn't. Sorry,
that is I'm thinking of the movie that's exactly like
Dan and this woman blindness Dan in real life movie,
but it's you're talking about the family Stone. The family Stone,
(33:44):
Julia Roberts would be fabulous. I was there's no there
are I was just talking to somebody the other day.
There are no transactresses period, Like, there are none. Yeah,
it would have to be a breakout. That's that's what
I would want, like because I just think we need
to be opening the door, like I know, as much
as possible. I know, like Hari and like Jesse, James
(34:06):
Kittle will be given the script, but like who, like,
there are actually no transactresses and this would be the
most delicious role for what is a huge, huge, huge
population of transaction actresses that are ready to break out.
And you know, I really it was important to me
(34:27):
that Julia not be the only trans character in her story.
You know, there are a few she and that is
kind of what is so hard for her about going
Home is she goes from a life where she is
surrounded by queer people and never interacts with straight people
really and then goes to Boca Ratone to a wedding
and this is her first time seeing her whole extended
(34:50):
family since transitioning, and that is a huge moment in
a queer person's life, you know, kind of re meeting
everyone in a way. A family wedding is pretty much
the most cisgender thing that can happen. Well. Weddings, I
think are I mean, there's a reason why so many
stories are set at weddings. They are so high stakes,
(35:13):
there's so much drama, there's so much gender, like like
the concept of gender, like the bride and groom of
it all like they are. They're this sort of operatic
stage for family drama, romantic drama. The bridal party becomes
the chorus. And it also like weddings have a very
(35:34):
natural beginning middle and it has the kind of like
surprise and delight of the bachelor slash bachelorette parties, the
bachelors parties, and an opportunity to serve some looks with
which Julia gets to do thanks thanks to one of
the one of the most fun things I had I
got to do in writing this novel is I got
(35:57):
to invent a fake pop star who is the source
of Julia's couture wedding looks, and that was that was
super fun. I got to like think about you know,
like what what she would be wearing to like serve
invoke a retone. And I know that this is the
most These are the most annoying questions to get as
(36:17):
an author slash. They're kind of dereguer in the literary
world to ask about real life counterparts. But if you
were you modeling this pop star after anybody specifically or
a combination of anybody, she's kind of just an amaglamation
of a bunch of people. Like I just needed to
come up with like a like a B list or
maybe even C list pop star, plus like someone who
(36:38):
someone who would like be on the red carpet of
the VMA's, but not the Grammys, not the Grammys, the
VMAs which are tonight upon recording tonight, okay, on that,
on that, well, okay, any other and it will let
me pin this any other fan casting you would do,
any other celebrities that you would like to be in this.
(36:58):
I know this is like so so ghosh, but like
I do actually, I mean we know that Charlene, we
would ask Charlene to play Daytona. Were are you one
of the producers. I'm definitely a creative producer on this film.
If I don't have a credit. Well, Riot Daytona bitch,
who is Julia's closest Her name is Daytonah bitch. I
didn't know that that was I forgot that she is
(37:20):
like the probably the one of two characters in the
book who are most closely modeled on someone I know
in real life. And she is very heavily inspired by
my dear friend Charlene. So yeah, I would love I
would love to have for who's the other character? My
grandpa is like basically copy it pasted into this book
just because like lawyer Grandpa. Yeah, because I really wanted
(37:43):
He's such a He's such a singular character that I
really wanted to immortalize him in fiction. I know you're
just starting your press tour, but I do feel like
you will you will experience. I think you'll get a
lot lot of questions about the book versus real life
(38:05):
because you're also from Boca, because there are some thematic
and character through lines in your life that are similar
to Julia's life. There's this sicky thing that can happen
on a pressed horror in your panels and your interviews,
et cetera, where people want to know about the real
quote unquote real life of it all, or like what
(38:27):
is the closest space, what is what is close to
your reality? How does it how how do you plan
on interfacing with those questions? Because it's it is just again,
it's it's it's any anybody in the literary world knows that.
It's kind of like it's like not impolite, it's like
(38:47):
truly not about the work. It's it's not it's not
a way to look at the work. It's tricky to
navigate because it almost it almost feels or at least
it you I think it's easy to feel like defect
of in a way to and view it as this
sort of gotcha, like, oh, you didn't come up with
any of this. You just like you know, basically wrote
(39:08):
about your real life and change the names, which is
like sorry, Like literally literally every single writer ever in
existence writes things based on life like it's it's not
like not saying based on your life, not based on
like real like your real life, but like we write
from lived experience or even like fucking Italo Calbino or
whatever the fuck like writes things that have something to
(39:31):
do with life, and it's really it's really only something
women get asked. Men do not get asked that question. Yes, period,
and men have been copy pasting their their life into
their work for millennia. Yeah, so yeah, it is tricky
to navigate. I've been kind of not cagey about it,
(39:52):
but I've been like sharing just little tidbits, and I think, like, what,
what I'm most comfortable saying is that some of these
circumstances in the novel are pulled from my own experiences,
and definitely some of Julia's family are inspired by my own.
But the actual you had a wedding, I had a wedding,
(40:15):
But the actual series of events and the way in
which they happen our total fiction. And Julia is not
me and I, And actually that is one of the
things that changed over the course of the novel. I
think I intended to write her a lot more like
me and she really it's such a trite thing that
(40:35):
authors say. It's like characters tell you who they are,
and they evolve by themselves. Like she really did become
this like totally separate person for me. And what I
said earlier is really the way, the truest way I
can say it is like, because I have younger sisters.
She really does feel like a little sister to me
who I am like want to shake and be like,
(40:58):
please make better decisions the way. She's not like you.
She's not as driven as I am. She's not an artist.
She's not a creative person. I did not want to
make her, you know, like a writer or whatever. She's okay,
she is. I think she's me in some way. It
(41:19):
definitely like her anxieties are are are very similar to mine.
She's a light gothisthet a light well maybe she's a
former punk. She's a little bit. Yeah, she's a little
bit more punk than I am. And yeah, she's like
a lot less driven and a lot less sure of herself.
Like even though I suffer from a lot of anxiety,
like I've pretty much always put yoursel that's pretty much
(41:39):
always known from a very young age what I wanted
and who I wanted to be. And Julia, it's taken
her much longer to figure that out, and a lot
of it she still hasn't figured out. I'm sorry to
ask us, did you have a lesbian crush in high school?
I definitely did not. I did note, but but there
is there is a scene the crush is so palpable.
(42:02):
I feel like you. I definitely transposed a lot of
gay yearning that I felt in high school onto Julia's
bisexual yearning. The book kind of jumps back and forth
through time occasionally to like give you more context on
Julia's backstory. And there's this scene I think it's it
might be the first jump back where it's a scene
(42:24):
where her where Julia pretransition, is being driven home by
her crush, Kim Cameron. And it is the most relatable
portrayal of like a high school crush. It's just delicious.
It's like so and also excruciating. It's excruciating, but it
feels it. I just I love high school crush books.
I love books like this because they get you so
(42:50):
intimately in touch with what that felt like when you
were that age. Okay, uh okay, anything else about real
life that you want to discuss, No, I want to
keep it a little bit of a mystery. If this
book had a soundtrack, it actually does. There's a playlist
(43:11):
that is it published? It's out? It's out? Yeah? Is that?
If we would mac on it? What's on it? What's
on it? Is it on your Spotify? I want to
I want to know, we'll pull it up. But anyways,
I bring it up. I bring this up because there's
just a lot of music in the book. There's a
lot of like there's a lot of like references to
(43:31):
certain artists and songs that will like paint their way
through scenes and like not even I not even place
you in time, to place you in the culture that
she belongs to, and like the ecosystem of like queer
nightlife that she comes from, or the kind of late
nineties early aught sense, like radio sensibility. Yeah. So some
(43:53):
of the songs in the playlist Black Velvet by Alana Miles,
Ray of Light by Madonna, Educated Guests by Anita Franco,
Prologue from Into the Woods, Pearl Jam there is Fleetwood,
mac Kate Bush, Torri amos Selene Dion, Jonny Mitchell, Phantom
of the Opera the Opera wa case of You. Okay,
(44:17):
love that I forgot that Joni put her music back
on Spotify. Oh you have a Moon River cover. That's fair.
I was going to ask about Audrey Hepburn. Okay, I yeah,
I think to who I know? This is not for
you to decide, but to ask you. Anyways, who's this
(44:37):
book for. It's for trans people. It's for trans people. Yeah,
also sis people. It is for SIS people, because I
think SIS people do need to like see inside the
mind of a trans person. But yeah, it's for it's
for trans people. It's for trans people who who should
(44:59):
be able to see their lives reflected in fiction, and
not always in the most extreme of ways, like it
they should be able to have this sort of like fantasy, escapist,
romantic comedy experience the same way that that SIS people
(45:21):
get to. Yeah, and and well, I think i've I
can't remember if I've mentioned this on the pod before,
if I I talked about your book for in a
Pride video series a couple of months ago, and I
was talking about how something that I think that the
best kind of writing about queerness and transness is one
(45:43):
where in the book has a trans character and has
no need to come to a screeching halt to like
explain that, you know what I mean, Like the trans
character exists, and where we have this like this, like
this plotting of emotional manipulated manipulation as whatever we want
(46:07):
to call it, tagged to her transness. The book in
and of itself doesn't interface with like only transphobia, like
it the book, like kind of the Shenanikins and the
rompang around has is like so much more than that.
It's actually just it's just entertaining, yes, but it's still
(46:28):
it's still is all explicitly tied to her transness, because
I really set out to write a story in which
the plot couldn't exist if the character wasn't trans. Those
are the kinds of stories I'm interested in, and I'm
so inspired by other trans authors who have done that,
you know, people like Gretchen Valger Martin and Tory Peters
(46:53):
who are writing you know, because I feel like so
so often the part line is like and it doesn't
even matter, It doesn't even matter that she's trans or like,
and she just happens about that. It's extremely about that,
because our lives and the ways we interact with the
(47:13):
world are different because of our transness, and that is
not something that we should minimize. And they haven't been
written yet, Like, yes, your book belongs to like an
amazing slate of like trans author authors publishing things right now,
but we are still in the infancy of trans fiction
as a genre. Yes, exactly, like it's it's it's like
(47:36):
if you think about it at an on timeline of
like you know, a growing up like sis, fiction has
had jillions of years to write and make work, and
so we've kind of seen everything there is to see
from CIS stories, and so trans literature like obviously trans
(48:01):
literature hasn't existed also since the Dawn time, but are
trans trans cultural production produced to a level of like
Summer ram com book is like in its infancy, and
also trans people telling our own stories and centering transnists
(48:24):
in them is still pretty you know, uh, pretty new
and radical in certain ways, and I hope people respond
to it. And I know you said this book is
for trans people, but I would also say this book
is for people who love books that are funny. It's
(48:46):
a really funny book. So if you're a lover of comedy,
you will love this book. I would say, if you
love a rom com, you love this book. If you
need a bet read, you love this book or a
vacation read. I think this book is really delicious because
it has like chapter like a lot of the chapters
are like three or four pages long, and I think
think that book Cadence a kind of Casey mc question,
(49:08):
I mean doesn't belong to them, but like a kind
of like there's a beach read cadence of short, digestible
chapters that's like really really nice. It does. I've had
a lot of people say to me in a very
positive way that they read it in one sitting, like
they really couldn't put it down. And it does move
(49:28):
very quickly. It's like it's a short novel. It's two
hundred and eighty eight pages, but there's a lot packed
in there. The pros is very dense, as I discovered
when I did my first reading of it. It was
like dense. How Like it's just so like Joe Keavy
is so introspective, jokes per minute are really on. Julia's
(49:51):
internal monologue is always running at like a twelve out
of ten. Yeah, which I love, though I mean like
sometimes that can be overbearing in here. I actually think
that there's just there's a lot that it's it's you're
you're you're playing it. You're I think you're overplaying a
little bit. There's a lot of scenes, it's it's a
lot of like it feels like a movie. It feels
like you're reading a movie. A lot of the time,
(50:12):
which is why I immediately wanted a fancast when I
was when I finished, I want to end on rom
coms like a thematic. We've we've I feel like we
haven't done a whole episode on rom coms. Have we Yeah,
we have, we have, we have. I'm pretty sure I
can't remember, but I think we have. What is the
state of the rom com right now to you? In
(50:32):
TV films, books, movie movies, but you see you alluded earlier,
you're like the rom comms little rotten right now. I
mean they're getting materialists, they're getting made, but they are
largely relegated to streaming, and they are kind of served
up as almost like anciliary content and kind of scene
as like lesser than when they used to be, like
very much the tent poles of culture. It used to
(50:56):
be the blockbusters. Yes, And I do think it's because,
you know, just like the way that media has changed
and the kind the types of films that get made,
you know, like the marvelification of media, These movies that
are often very sexless, even when there are you know,
(51:18):
when there is romance in them. Romance is important. Also,
family stories are important, and stories about coming to terms
with their identity are important, and those things are are
valuable and meaningful. And I would love to see, you know,
a romantic comedy resurgence in which we're not just getting
(51:39):
you know, even though this is kind of like a
remix in some ways of a pre existing romantic comedy,
like it is a holy it is an original story,
and I would love to see more original romantic comedies
that are that are risky. Yeah, and there are what
what else? Like? Yeah? More like I also like prefer
(52:02):
romantic comedies that have primary and secondary characters that are
fucking weird, Like I think we don't get a lot
of that. I think a lot of rom coms in
the canon are about normies. Did that make sense? Well,
that's why. That's why my best Friend's wedding was so
transgressive was because Julia Roberts was a bad person. Bad
person I didn't I totally didn't even understand that when
(52:25):
I so when my first we talked about this in
the episode about my best Friend's wedding way back when.
But when I first watched my best friend's wedding, I
was kind of like, I mean, I kind of like
thought that a lot of the things she was doing.
I was like, that's fine, like she's she's being awful,
but like, actually I would I would do that too, sure, whatever,
But I also remember watching it and being like I
didn't understand I really didn't understand her motivations and I
(52:48):
didn't understand why the character was the way she was.
And I retroactively am like thinking about my reaction to
the first being of that film as something that was
claud How would it buy a canon of rom coms
that were very normy, a canon of rom comms that
were all kind of these perfect protagonists, these perfect Julia
(53:10):
Roberts esque protagonists, And here was Julie Roberts actually being
extremely imperfect. And I didn't get that kind of misogynist
of me, honestly. Okay, anything else you want to say
about the state of the rom com I think this
is like a juicy end note because I feel like
I want to see more original stories. Yes, I want
to see more transrom coms. Yes, I want to say
(53:31):
I would rom coms to be hornier, hornier, thank you,
Oh my god, this book is so horny, you guys.
The sex scenes are one and there are multiple. It's
crazy to me. My grandparents have read sex scenes that
I wrote. You also you well, sorry, I don't be
mad at me for saying this, but you had sex
(53:51):
scenes that had that were edited, that were yeah, tinkered with,
tinkered with a little bit. But I think but I
think there were Ultimately, ultimately it was in service because
this book is not it's not like a spicy kind
of mutt. It's not smut. It's not my sweet Audrina,
it's it's it' that'll be. It's the horny. It's horny
(54:16):
and sexy. But it's not smutty. No, it's not smuddy.
There's a there's there's a lot of yearning in it.
There's ellipse, there's ellipses, and there's there's But I also
think it's pretty frank about sex. Yes it is. It
doesn't shy away from it at all, which I love.
And it has sex humor that's like very good and funny. Okay,
(54:40):
I think this concludes our terry gross as interview. I
I want to again say, if you are in New
York City on Center or in the Tristate area or
in the Tristate area, honestly, you should drive up for
it because it will be worth it. There might even
be an after party if things come to fruition the
way we want to. But come see Rose in conversation
with heron Walker on September two third. We need you
(55:01):
to buy a ticket. If you don't buy a ticket,
you're not a virgin, period. I'm saying that right here now,
even if you're not in New York, you should just
buy a ticket, just to do it. Like love that mentality, no, literally,
like we need you to get into swifty mode, sorry
to say it's swifty mode, and just like get into
the subreddits. And we need people buying books and buying
tickets to Rose Damie's book event with heron Walker on
(55:24):
set for twenty third at the Strand in New York City,
as well as the Los Angeles event on October twelfth, twelfth, twelfth, Yeah, twelfth,
No eighth eighth, eighth, eighth, October eighth at Annabel's Book Club,
and the Baltimore event at Grady Reid's on October second,
(55:46):
and the Boca Ratone event on October eighteenth at Barnes
and Noble. And also I'm doing a second New York
event in Brooklyn at Lofty Pigeon with Bobby Finger right oh,
my God be okay, And all the links for all
of these events are again in the description of this
podcast episode. Just click on over to find them, or
(56:07):
you can go to Rose Damu's instagram Rose DomU and
check her link tree and her bio and they're all there.
Thank you so much for doing this with me. This was,
I mean, it's my pleasure. It was. It's I mean,
you I insisted, just f why I roasted, don't ask
me to do this. I was like, we need to
do this because, uh, we just we want to we
(56:30):
want to set the record straight on your terms. Yes, okay.
And the controversy wait, it has there been controversy? No, No, no,
there's been. I mean you've had like you had like
one negative book Goodreads review or something like that like
months ago. For for the most part, people seem to
really enjoy it. And if they don't, it's kind of
(56:52):
in the ways that I wanted them to not enjoy it. Yeah. Actually,
did you send a copy the JK rolling yet? Yeah?
I had. I had it sent. And it's sort of
a drone strike. There's kind of like like a T
shirt cannon but for books, and it's being shot into
her castle windows. Uh, that'd be a really great use
(57:13):
of marketing. Someone did. Someone did. When I posted about
this on TikTok recently, someone said, don't en jk Rowling
like this. I mean coming. I'm coming for her gig.
She coming for his gig, his Jake Hay Rowling. Anyways,
that is Best Woman by Rose Dom. You go get
your copy, go buy your tickets. I am fran Torado
(57:36):
and this is fresh air. This is stank air, stank
air with love you
Go. Welcome to NPR. I'm Terry Gross and I'm Terry Grosser.
Is Terry Gross even doing Is she still doing the pod?
I don't. She could be dead for all I know.
Are you going to storm out of this interview the
way Adam Driver stormed out of his Terry Gross interview?
(00:21):
Is that we're calling this an interview? Yes? Okay, this
is it. This is a stop on your pressed for
This is the like a virgin special edition, special edition
RSS feed drop, the rare RSS feed drop, as long
as we can pressure Phoebe into posting it because neither
of us know how to do that. Yeah, and it will,
(00:43):
it will, Yeah, and you know this, this uh formally
will be the official official Friend and Rose interview about
a book called Best Woman by Rose DomU. It is
available and purchasable for pre order on bookshop dot org
(01:04):
among other websites. You also, if you're in New York,
you have to come and see Rose and heron Walker
in conversation at the Strand on September twenty third, really
chic date, September twenty Russia. You can get your take.
I think there's like a ticket option with a book
and a ticket option without a book available in Rose's
(01:27):
link tree, in her bio or a social Bible. Will
also put a linked tickets in the description of this
podcast episode, so you can mosey on over there to
get your ticket. I want to see you there. I'll
be there. There's also a Los Angeles event there is
I'm going to be in Los Angeles doing an event
at Annabelle's Book Club on October eighth I'm also going
(01:51):
to be at Greedy Read's in Baltimore on October second, Baltimore,
and I'm going to be in both gratone on October eighteenth,
and literally my entire family and all my mom's friends
will be there, which I love. And if you're not familiar,
I mean Deer's Virgins. I know you've heard us talk
(02:13):
about Rose's book in some capacity or another, basically every
other episode of the podcast. You know we've been edging.
We've been edging, edging edge Lords. We are. If you're
not familiar already with the premise of Roses book, it
does take place in Boca Raton, Florida, or large large
(02:33):
portions of it take place in book Raton, Florida, where
Rose is from. I kind of want to give. I
want you to give us a little summary, but like,
can you start by telling us what Booka Ratone, Florida is,
Like maybe how it influenced your malgoth persona, your your
personal malgoth persona, and then I guess, kind of how
(02:55):
does it become the backdrop for this book. Boca Ratone
is a very weird place, which is why I always
wanted to write a book that was set there. And
there's a lot of old people there, So that's Heaven's
waiting room, God's waiting room. Yes, I know, I've made
that joke on this podcast several times. Yeah. I mean
(03:19):
it's a lot of like very affluent people, a lot
of old people, a lot of Jewish people. Ariana Grande
is from there. Ariana Grande is from there, as am
I mother Teresa's from there. It's a very weird place
to be a child, yes, just because everyone so old.
Like the neighborhood I grew up in, there were no
(03:41):
other children in. You had no peers, no peers, you
only had old. I only had old. So I do
think that really explains a lot why I am the
way I am kind of does. And there's this kind
of with the again, we're going to get into the
plot of the book. But the character of this book,
(04:02):
Best Woman kind of uh comes in. It kind kind
of interfaces with the kind of JENSI quad the kind
of on we of is that's how it's pronounced right
on on we Yeah, I've did. I used to pronounce
that anwie yes, yes, the on wee of returning to
(04:23):
your childhood, returning to your like childhood bedroom, or returning
to your returning to your hometown, and the just like
the great sadness, the great and unamable sadness that it
kind of instills in you, yes, and also the string
and the kind of immediate regression that happens when you
(04:43):
return home. I noticed for so long that every time
I would visit home, I would immediately I would like,
within eight hours, I would become fifteen again, and I
would be like, oh mom, And that is such a
tense experience. It's so weird to go somewhere where everybody
(05:06):
knows you, but like no one actually really knows you. Yeah.
And it's like so that the primary character, Julia, she
kind of comes home specifically for a wedding, and in
she's kind of immediately reminded of like a lot of
(05:28):
like I want to say, like ghosts. That sounds like
a little more dramatic than it actually is. But there's
a lot of these kind of ghosts of her, of
her past, of her growing up, of just like what
it felt like to be in Boca that I think
are very I just related to them part, even though
because I'm from a suburb, I don't know if Bocaca. Okay,
(05:49):
so I'm from this I'm kind of from the suburbs.
I was born on the South Side, was raised in
the suburbs. And there's this just kind of like really
weird dissonance that you experience, especially I mean definitely as
a queer person, especially as a transperson reinstating yourself in
this context. Anyways, Okay, I'm being very terrogressed right now,
but will you do me the honor of giving a
(06:12):
plot summary for the people that are not awareer of
the of course. So Best Woman is about Julia Rosenberg,
who is a trans woman in her late twenties living
in New York City. She is a couple of years
into her transition. Right before she started transitioning, her brother
got engaged and asked her to be the best man
(06:35):
at his wedding, and then when she transitioned, she became
the best woman, the best woman. At the beginning of
the novel, she's a couple of weeks out from the
wedding and going to get her best woman dress, best
woman dress. And I've never actually done this thing that
(06:55):
happens in the book, which is like the appointment to
get your dress that everyone has to wear. Yeah, ever
done that either, But I've watched a lot of says
to the dress, so I feel like I have an
understanding of it. Okay. So she finds out that early
in the novel that the maid of honor in her
brother's wedding has dropped out. Slash been kicked out because
(07:20):
she was uncomfortable with the idea of walking down the
aisle with Julia because she is transphobic, and now replacing
the maid of honor is Kim Cameron, Julia's number one
ultimate high school crush, who is a very hot, sexy,
confident lesbian. As a reader, this is this is the
(07:45):
part where you realize that this book is an entry
into the sapphic kind of romance canon. Yes, it is
truly a lesbian romance. What's a bisexual Bulia. Julia is
by sexual and she does. She does have a male
love interest in the novel too, who's more of just
(08:05):
like a hometown hookup. Because she is she is a
chaotic bisexual slut and I love her for that. So
what the tension of the novel kind of hinges of is.
During an early interaction where Julia has seen Kim again,
(08:27):
she makes the mistake of telling this little white lie,
which is that her family is actually more transphobic transphobic
than they actually are. They're actually pretty accepting. She does
(08:48):
this in a very misguided bid to gain Kim's sympathy
to her. Yes, because of an interaction that they have,
and and because she is kind of at this place
in her transition where she feels like she has accomplished
a lot of her goals and feels affirmed in a
(09:11):
lot of ways. But this girl kind of represents this
like last hurdle of her womanhood, which is this lesbian
who she was obsessed with in high school and knew
she would never be able to get because at that
time she presented as male. And so she has this
idea that if she's able to successfully you know, kind
(09:33):
of con this girl into likely lightly but con into
being interested in her romantically. Then that will be proof
that she really is the woman she has always wanted
to be and seen herself as. This is very much
inspired by my best friend's wedding, and you know, the
(09:58):
idea of a very unlikable protagonist who lies and makes
bad decisions to get what she wants. And I really
wanted to see a trans character be able to do
that because I feel like in a lot of a
lot of media depictions of trans people they have to
be either like saints or victims or a murderers, And
(10:21):
I wanted to see a really complicated trans protagonist who
you just kind of want to shake and go what
are you doing? Like are you doing? I very much
see Julia as like a little sister. I'm like, what
is wrong with you? So that is the setup, and
then the bulk of the novel takes place over the
wedding week in book ratone, as Julia reunites with her family,
(10:43):
all while staying connected to her friends back in New
York City who are like very much her chosen family.
And there's a really big cast of kooky characters, shenanigans, En, Sue,
and there's some steamy hookups and some very painful growth
(11:05):
for lots of the people involved. I don't want to
give too much of the book away, but I want
to dig a little bit more into the plot in that. So,
as you mentioned, there's this the the thematic tension kind
of starts with this, uh this, like, I guess, like
(11:32):
not so great choice of emotionally manipulating her high school
crush Kim Cameron at a cheesecake factory. And a dream
of mine was always to set a scene in a
novel at factory. And I did it, and you did it,
and it felt like I was there. Maybe we never
had our cheesecake factory day, remember when we were supposed
to have our our like a virgin holiday party, but
(11:56):
we couldn't because what COVID something like that like that.
But yeah, so so the the all of the tension
kind of starts in this moment where like Julia decides
to lie and save her family's a little transphobic, and
it kind of works immediately and Kim Cameron has all
(12:17):
of this cis guilt that like she like soaks the
conversation and being like, oh my god, you I mean
she's not like you, poor thing. But the affect is
very like you poor thing. It's very the subtext is
very You're so brave, and you're so brave, and oh,
I want to take care of you, and oh, this
is like maybe feeding already a kind of funny romantic
(12:40):
dynamic as well, because it is immediately I would say
it's I think it's pretty clear from jump that Kim
is into Julia, like she kind of said she she
all but says that that's a possibility, but it's also
it's like like with in terms of like her actions,
but it's also like she doesn't. It's not immediately, do
(13:01):
you know what I mean? Well, it's I think it's
more so that Kim's interest is very clear, but Julia
can't or won't let herself believe it. She can't trust it,
and she thinks that this manipulation of the truth is
(13:23):
kind of justified because this girl will never organically like
her when the evidence is staring her right in the face.
And you know, I don't want to give too much away,
but there is a point like through the novel where
it is pretty clear that Kim is interested in her,
and even knowing that, Julia still continues on with her
(13:47):
deception because she is an incredibly anxious, insular person. Like
that was one of the most fun parts of the novel, was,
you know, it's toll from first person perspective, and you
spend so much time in Julia's head. She really overthinks everything.
(14:09):
That's one of the ways in which she is like me.
And even with the proof of all of these different things,
her her family's acceptance, this girl's interest staring her in
the face, she still is seeing demons around every corner,
(14:29):
and what is the name? So if so, she lies
and she says her family's not that accepting. It's more
so that it's more so that she doesn't correct Kim
when she makes a sort of assumption. And I think
that's why Julia feels kind of almost like self righteous
(14:54):
about it, is like, well, she already assumed, and so
I'm just not correcting her, And it was her fault
for assuming in the first place that I was some
like poor little tranny that she needed to save. And
the real life nature of Julia's relationship with her family
is kind of more like, you know, mom and Dad
might might not have been totally understanding of it initially,
(15:17):
but ultimately really really understanding. She also has an older
brother and two twin siblings, two younger twin siblings. The brother,
I think I could say is like the most accepting,
but on the hint of this lie, Julie kind of
(15:37):
positions him as maybe the least accepting kind of Yeah,
she really throws him under the bus, the darkest lie. Yeah,
that is the darkest lie because with the rest of
her family, you know, like, what I really wanted to
explore is this nuance of queer acceptance where your family can,
you know, say all the right things and do the
right things, but there's still kind of a stinky vibe
(15:58):
of like, you know, it's still all a little conditional,
the way that you use a she her pronoun with
an emphatic kind of or it's like, I only see
you as a woman if you do these certain things
that I expect a woman is supposed to do. And
with Julia's brother, Aidan, he really is the one in
her family who has embraced her identity the most, and
(16:23):
maybe even more so than well no, with her mother
there her transition did bring them closer in a way,
and with her and Aiden, they've always been close and
Aiden's Aiden's he's her younger brother, so like a young
oh and with Aiden, like they were always close and
so her her transition really changed nothing about their relationship,
(16:45):
which is like such great proof to her that she
has the support she is looking for and why it
makes it all the harder to justify what she's done.
And that is the place I wanted her to be.
I really wanted the reader to be really frustrated with Julia,
(17:09):
because that's fun, yeah, and like, well, that frustration is
really I think that frustration is the thing that is
like perhaps in my experience of reading the book, the
most interesting part of it, which is that like you know,
her her mom and dad are like very accepting now,
but they've come a little ways to get there, and
(17:33):
so there's still this like there's this tension. There's just
feeling like the certain the way the way her mom
uses that she her pronent still feels a little a
type of way, or that this these very little ways
that SIS people, SIS family meverse can still disappoint us
even when they're trying, creates this like negative kind of
(17:55):
foil to it that I think, and sometimes it's the
trying that feels hard, like like what like because like
sometimes like the lack of effort is the effort, you know,
when someone is not making it clear that there's something
different or weird or quote unquote special about you, versus
(18:18):
when someone is clearly putting an effort, when there's an
emphasis on the she or the girl, or when assist
girl is like hey lady, you know like that that
is almost more hurtful than an out as would rather
like them. Yeah, it's funny, but like I the I
(18:42):
think in throughout the whole book, you depict something that
I've never really seen in any media before, not to representation,
but like it's it's something that I've never really seen
depicted before, which is that it's this transgender urge to
play up your trauma or oppression or to balloon that
(19:06):
frustration inside of you to a degree that feels manipulative
or punitive to those around you, you know what I mean.
Like it's like it's this thing where you're kind of
like you're like, oh, I am the victim, I'm the victim,
or these are my perpetrators, and in reality it's like
really really not that dynamic is not actually real, Like
(19:29):
it's it's much more nuanced than that, but it also
comes from a real place because when your trands like
you do, live in this constant fear of you know,
the turf around the corner, constant victimhood, and your marginalize,
you're minoritized in every interaction, and so you can't help
but expect that from people to an unhealthy extent, and
(19:52):
it actually can lead to being very unfair to people
who are not giving you that energy at all. Yes, exactly.
And I think like Aid and the Brother is maybe
the primary example of this. There's almost even a level
of it that comes from Kim who kind of I
mean as a reader, I immediately had these like alarm
(20:12):
bells in my head about how the Crush would speak
about transness or just like acceptance in general. We have
this like movie, this like after school special idea like
trans acceptance, so that SIS people can have a trans
acceptance that is like very grading. Okay, there's also a
(20:34):
kind of wait, what is even There's there's some sort
of slang term for like trade you have at your hometown.
What is it? It's it's just like like a town hookup.
It's like an old flame. It's kind of like basically
Julia has this old flame named Ben Ben who is
her brother's friend brother and one of the grooms men,
(20:55):
who is someone who feels like comfortable and life just
one is one of those hookups that like just knows
your body, and so hooking up always feels like easy
and giggly and fun. Well, and also the special thing
for her is they were hooking up before she transitioned
right right, and so he's been this like constant in
(21:17):
her life and someone who was equally attracted to her
in both presentations. So that is really comfortable. Like I
think at one point I wrote that like hooking up
with him was like putting on a pair of like
the perfectly worn and old jeans, you know, which is
such a which is such a goal. When you have
(21:38):
a person who is like you're just like very comfortable
around can get off with. It's like really easy, you
don't have to put in too much effort. They know
you really well, they know your body. Kind of kind
of goals. It's been so long since I've had an
old Jean's hook up, but it's like it's almost too comfortable.
(21:58):
Like Julius still is like she she understands that if
she was like kind of a simpler person. She could
like let that be enough for her and like let
herself love this person. But she's not simple. She's not
a simple girl. She's very complicated. Sweet Home Alabama. Yeah,
it's sweet of Alabama. I mean everything is sweet Home
(22:20):
Alabama to me. Sweet Homo Alabama, Sweet Homo Alabama, three
sweet trans Sweet sweet Home Trallabama, Tranabama. What we're like
the what we're like the most? Okay? Actually, no, no, The
question I want to ask actually is what changed? Because
(22:41):
you know, I was like with you in like cafes
in Los Angeles when you were writing the first drafts,
in the first chapters of this book and somewhere along
the years long process. Because how many how many years
did it take you? It's been a little over three
years since I started writing the book, Okay, so but
you completed the manuscript like a year you know, yeah,
a year and a half ago. Okay, so it's like
(23:02):
two and a half years of writing essentially in that
two and a half year process. What changed? Like? What
was there? Is there? Like it doesn't have to be everything,
but like, what's something specific, whether like a plotline or
character or a dynamic or I know that the ending
changed that you don't need to share that, But is
(23:23):
there something else about when you were, like, you set
out to write this book and it ended up being
that book. Yeah, I think it started off as more
of a kind of cut and dry romantic comedy and
it ended up being much more of a family drama
(23:45):
and coming of age novel because the romantic comedy was
really kind of like the like chocolatey rapper around a
sort of more like bitter center that was this like
exploration of family and identity and growing up and love
(24:08):
and kind of like lures you into a book that
I hope like has some pretty deep things to say.
It does about all of those things it actually really does.
I mean the family drama, well, the thoughtfulness of a
family drama is really in the book when she when
(24:28):
her inner monologues kind of pop off. She has like
a range of like inner monologues about transness, acceptance, family presentation, love,
et cetera throughout the book that are really really beautiful
in my favorite parts to read. When you were writing it,
you had quite a lot of references. Obviously, we've referenced
my best friend's wedding. I think we talked about Red,
(24:48):
White and Robe but at one point, even though they
have virtually nothing to do with each other. But the
big one was actually Garden State a way, I don't
wait talk to me about that. So, I mean, Garden
State is one of my favorite movies, and I revisit
it quite often. Actually, today's kind of a perfect day
(25:09):
to watch it, because it's like Rainy. That was in
mind a lot, because that is a movie that is
about coming home for a family event. In that case
it's a funeral. In this case it's a wedding. But
the idea of forcing yourself back into a life that
you have outgrown and but also still being able to
(25:31):
find the beauty in that former life and some kind
of comfort in it while knowing that you have still
transcended it. And also you know that the family and
that is Jewish, and you know this Julia is Jewish.
Her family is very culturally Jewish, and so that is
a big part of the novel as well. Truly likes
(25:54):
Cafelta fish wait right yeah, which is famously disgusting. It
is famously discuss and she does. There is a vomit
scene early in the scene is really satisfying. I need
to see that as a movie. You also reference wait,
what is it for wedding? Four Weddings and a Funeral?
What it was that? Again, I've never seen it, I
don't think, or if I have, I don't. It's some no,
(26:17):
not what's the movie I'm thinking about about a funeral?
I'll remember later. Four Weddings and a Funeral is a
Richard Curtis movie. He made Nodding Hill and kind of
all those British romantic comedies with Hugh Grant. It stars
Hugh Grant and Annie McDowell and it is a movie
(26:38):
where you experience this group of friends as they go
to over the course of a couple of years, four
different weddings and one funeral. And there very much is
a chosen family in it. There's a lot of you know,
like sexy romantic drama, some lying and manipulation. There is
(27:00):
some like very intense sadness with you know, the funeral
of it all. And it was a movie I had
never watched until I started writing the book and was
like actively seeking out romantic comedies about weddings to sort
of be inspired by. And that was definitely a big one.
Any other because okay, so I'm basically trying to paint
(27:22):
for the consume, for the consumer of this book, sorry
to be all sales. It's like, if you like for
weddings in a funeral, you like best No. This is
literally how we're marketing the books. I would also say
I would also say my big fact Greek wedding, yes,
because of the the kookie crazy family who are very
much like a huge like, this isn't a book where
the family are on the sidelines. There are a really
(27:44):
active part of the story, as are Julia's friends who
are her family. I also the number of times I
brought this up on like A version is embarrassing. But
then in real life starring Steve Carrell never seen and
Juliette Binoche stunning family drama where you're always trying to
get me to watch a movie with Julia Boch and
we should watch it right now. Uh yeah, what any
(28:08):
any other films or books that could be comps to
this where it's like, if you like this, you like
Best Women. I think if you like well, I know,
you know the the authors that that my publisher really
like trying to compare it to or people Casey mcwisten
did blurb the book, Yell, Dolly Alderton, Emily Henry. Yeah,
(28:33):
I did get some really great blurbs from some authors
I so deeply admire and respect, like Casey Mccuisten, Kristin Arnett,
J P. Brammer. I was very touched by their their
thoughts about my book, and Tory Peters Casey. But Casey
(28:57):
said irresistibly fresh, bright, funny, and with singular voice, this
is the kind of romance I've been waiting for, and
we're so lucky to finally have it. Wow. Anointed by
Jesus themselves, incredible, anointed by queer romance. Jesus, queer romance Jesus.
Casey mcquest has anointed and blessed this but read this
book and blurbed it. I want to know, Wait, were
(29:20):
there any Is there anybody that like you went out
to that didn't that didn't blurb them? No, I got
you got all your blurbs. Yeah, what I didn't know
that you've got a hundred Yeah, I mean Tory, Tory,
Casey and Kristen were like my holy trinity of blurbs,
and they all said yes, and we're so happy to
do it. That's that's been one of the really amazing
(29:41):
things about doing this is how generous other authors have
been with their time, with their advice. Uh, Like, I
had coffee with Haley Jacobson a couple of weeks ago.
Haley Jacobson wrote another queer novel called Old Enough that
is really like a campus novel also is very much
(30:04):
a coming of age story, and she we had this
this coffee date because we met at the Meta Pride
book Fair this summer, the Meta Pride book that I
did my first ever reading of Best Women at. And
we had coffee and she like gave me some really
amazing reassurance about just like the process of publishing a
(30:28):
debut novel, and like the fact that it's not all
about pub day or pub week and that novels have
such a longer lifespan and really can like build up
a following over that, and also just like navigating what
it's like to have a book that is so like
identity first and that's the way that it's going to
(30:49):
be perceived and talked about, which was so helpful. Well,
that's the I mean, that's the kind of annoying thing
about marketing a book with transcaracter in it or queer
characters in it is that it immediately becomes trademark LGBTQ
bookshelf section of borders. But you know what I was
really happy and kind of gagged about was that my
(31:12):
team at no point was like, Okay, well, we have
to publish your book in June. It's a queer book.
Well no, no, no shade to queer authors who do
publish their books during Pride month, but it does. It
does feel very much like a siloing of queer art
that it's only important at the time when people are
(31:33):
kind of trained to pay attention to it. And the
fact that my publisher really believed that my book had
mainstream appeal and legs and like didn't want me to silo.
Didn't want to silo me. Like that meant a lot,
which it does. I mean, I read, I finished. It
took me months to read the book because I famously
(31:55):
can't read, but I did finish it with Rose Damu
at Fire Island at a Beautiful Fire Island share courtesy
of Joel Kim Booster. And I remember closing the book,
I had like, well you saw me like gasp multiple
times because the ending has some gags and some twists,
(32:15):
and it is a roller coaster. There was a there's
a there's a moment where I truly, truly audibly gasped.
But all that to say, I immediately wanted to I
immediately started fan casting it, and I was like, what
has do you have aspirations for this book to be
(32:36):
a film? I would love. I would love if it were.
I have, we have interests I have, I have film
and TV agents. Who are you know sending me around
to meet people to talk about that. I think it
would be so cool to see this movie, this book
that was inspired by romantic comedy films, to become a film.
(32:56):
I also think the state of romantic comedy movies right
now is pretty die and this could be a good
injection into that. Yeah, my dream would be, of course
that because this is inspired by my best friend's wedding.
If Julia Roberts were to play the mother character, you're
gonna say, Julia so sickening Julia Roberts or maybe Sarah
(33:22):
Jessica Parker could play, could play Dana Jessica Parker wasn't
Oh no way, no, she wasn't. She wasn't, she wasn't. Sorry,
that is I'm thinking of the movie that's exactly like
Dan and this woman blindness Dan in real life movie,
but it's you're talking about the family Stone. The family Stone,
(33:44):
Julia Roberts would be fabulous. I was there's no there
are I was just talking to somebody the other day.
There are no transactresses period, Like, there are none. Yeah,
it would have to be a breakout. That's that's what
I would want, like because I just think we need
to be opening the door, like I know, as much
as possible. I know, like Hari and like Jesse, James
(34:06):
Kittle will be given the script, but like who, like,
there are actually no transactresses and this would be the
most delicious role for what is a huge, huge, huge
population of transaction actresses that are ready to break out.
And you know, I really it was important to me
(34:27):
that Julia not be the only trans character in her story.
You know, there are a few she and that is
kind of what is so hard for her about going
Home is she goes from a life where she is
surrounded by queer people and never interacts with straight people
really and then goes to Boca Ratone to a wedding
and this is her first time seeing her whole extended
(34:50):
family since transitioning, and that is a huge moment in
a queer person's life, you know, kind of re meeting
everyone in a way. A family wedding is pretty much
the most cisgender thing that can happen. Well. Weddings, I
think are I mean, there's a reason why so many
stories are set at weddings. They are so high stakes,
(35:13):
there's so much drama, there's so much gender, like like
the concept of gender, like the bride and groom of
it all like they are. They're this sort of operatic
stage for family drama, romantic drama. The bridal party becomes
the chorus. And it also like weddings have a very
(35:34):
natural beginning middle and it has the kind of like
surprise and delight of the bachelor slash bachelorette parties, the
bachelors parties, and an opportunity to serve some looks with
which Julia gets to do thanks thanks to one of
the one of the most fun things I had I
got to do in writing this novel is I got
(35:57):
to invent a fake pop star who is the source
of Julia's couture wedding looks, and that was that was
super fun. I got to like think about you know,
like what what she would be wearing to like serve
invoke a retone. And I know that this is the
most These are the most annoying questions to get as
(36:17):
an author slash. They're kind of dereguer in the literary
world to ask about real life counterparts. But if you
were you modeling this pop star after anybody specifically or
a combination of anybody, she's kind of just an amaglamation
of a bunch of people. Like I just needed to
come up with like a like a B list or
maybe even C list pop star, plus like someone who
(36:38):
someone who would like be on the red carpet of
the VMA's, but not the Grammys, not the Grammys, the
VMAs which are tonight upon recording tonight, okay, on that,
on that, well, okay, any other and it will let
me pin this any other fan casting you would do,
any other celebrities that you would like to be in this.
(36:58):
I know this is like so so ghosh, but like
I do actually, I mean we know that Charlene, we
would ask Charlene to play Daytona. Were are you one
of the producers. I'm definitely a creative producer on this film.
If I don't have a credit. Well, Riot Daytona bitch,
who is Julia's closest Her name is Daytonah bitch. I
didn't know that that was I forgot that she is
(37:20):
like the probably the one of two characters in the
book who are most closely modeled on someone I know
in real life. And she is very heavily inspired by
my dear friend Charlene. So yeah, I would love I
would love to have for who's the other character? My
grandpa is like basically copy it pasted into this book
just because like lawyer Grandpa. Yeah, because I really wanted
(37:43):
He's such a He's such a singular character that I
really wanted to immortalize him in fiction. I know you're
just starting your press tour, but I do feel like
you will you will experience. I think you'll get a
lot lot of questions about the book versus real life
(38:05):
because you're also from Boca, because there are some thematic
and character through lines in your life that are similar
to Julia's life. There's this sicky thing that can happen
on a pressed horror in your panels and your interviews,
et cetera, where people want to know about the real
quote unquote real life of it all, or like what
(38:27):
is the closest space, what is what is close to
your reality? How does it how how do you plan
on interfacing with those questions? Because it's it is just again,
it's it's it's any anybody in the literary world knows that.
It's kind of like it's like not impolite, it's like
(38:47):
truly not about the work. It's it's not it's not
a way to look at the work. It's tricky to
navigate because it almost it almost feels or at least
it you I think it's easy to feel like defect
of in a way to and view it as this
sort of gotcha, like, oh, you didn't come up with
any of this. You just like you know, basically wrote
(39:08):
about your real life and change the names, which is
like sorry, Like literally literally every single writer ever in
existence writes things based on life like it's it's not
like not saying based on your life, not based on
like real like your real life, but like we write
from lived experience or even like fucking Italo Calbino or
whatever the fuck like writes things that have something to
(39:31):
do with life, and it's really it's really only something
women get asked. Men do not get asked that question. Yes, period,
and men have been copy pasting their their life into
their work for millennia. Yeah, so yeah, it is tricky
to navigate. I've been kind of not cagey about it,
(39:52):
but I've been like sharing just little tidbits, and I think, like, what,
what I'm most comfortable saying is that some of these
circumstances in the novel are pulled from my own experiences,
and definitely some of Julia's family are inspired by my own.
But the actual you had a wedding, I had a wedding,
(40:15):
But the actual series of events and the way in
which they happen our total fiction. And Julia is not
me and I, And actually that is one of the
things that changed over the course of the novel. I
think I intended to write her a lot more like
me and she really it's such a trite thing that
(40:35):
authors say. It's like characters tell you who they are,
and they evolve by themselves. Like she really did become
this like totally separate person for me. And what I
said earlier is really the way, the truest way I
can say it is like, because I have younger sisters.
She really does feel like a little sister to me
who I am like want to shake and be like,
(40:58):
please make better decisions the way. She's not like you.
She's not as driven as I am. She's not an artist.
She's not a creative person. I did not want to
make her, you know, like a writer or whatever. She's okay,
she is. I think she's me in some way. It
(41:19):
definitely like her anxieties are are are very similar to mine.
She's a light gothisthet a light well maybe she's a
former punk. She's a little bit. Yeah, she's a little
bit more punk than I am. And yeah, she's like
a lot less driven and a lot less sure of herself.
Like even though I suffer from a lot of anxiety,
like I've pretty much always put yoursel that's pretty much
(41:39):
always known from a very young age what I wanted
and who I wanted to be. And Julia, it's taken
her much longer to figure that out, and a lot
of it she still hasn't figured out. I'm sorry to
ask us, did you have a lesbian crush in high school?
I definitely did not. I did note, but but there
is there is a scene the crush is so palpable.
(42:02):
I feel like you. I definitely transposed a lot of
gay yearning that I felt in high school onto Julia's
bisexual yearning. The book kind of jumps back and forth
through time occasionally to like give you more context on
Julia's backstory. And there's this scene I think it's it
might be the first jump back where it's a scene
(42:24):
where her where Julia pretransition, is being driven home by
her crush, Kim Cameron. And it is the most relatable
portrayal of like a high school crush. It's just delicious.
It's like so and also excruciating. It's excruciating, but it
feels it. I just I love high school crush books.
I love books like this because they get you so
(42:50):
intimately in touch with what that felt like when you
were that age. Okay, uh okay, anything else about real
life that you want to discuss, No, I want to
keep it a little bit of a mystery. If this
book had a soundtrack, it actually does. There's a playlist
(43:11):
that is it published? It's out? It's out? Yeah? Is that?
If we would mac on it? What's on it? What's
on it? Is it on your Spotify? I want to
I want to know, we'll pull it up. But anyways,
I bring it up. I bring this up because there's
just a lot of music in the book. There's a
lot of like there's a lot of like references to
(43:31):
certain artists and songs that will like paint their way
through scenes and like not even I not even place
you in time, to place you in the culture that
she belongs to, and like the ecosystem of like queer
nightlife that she comes from, or the kind of late
nineties early aught sense, like radio sensibility. Yeah. So some
(43:53):
of the songs in the playlist Black Velvet by Alana Miles,
Ray of Light by Madonna, Educated Guests by Anita Franco,
Prologue from Into the Woods, Pearl Jam there is Fleetwood,
mac Kate Bush, Torri amos Selene Dion, Jonny Mitchell, Phantom
of the Opera the Opera wa case of You. Okay,
(44:17):
love that I forgot that Joni put her music back
on Spotify. Oh you have a Moon River cover. That's fair.
I was going to ask about Audrey Hepburn. Okay, I yeah,
I think to who I know? This is not for
you to decide, but to ask you. Anyways, who's this
(44:37):
book for. It's for trans people. It's for trans people. Yeah,
also sis people. It is for SIS people, because I
think SIS people do need to like see inside the
mind of a trans person. But yeah, it's for it's
for trans people. It's for trans people who who should
(44:59):
be able to see their lives reflected in fiction, and
not always in the most extreme of ways, like it
they should be able to have this sort of like fantasy, escapist,
romantic comedy experience the same way that that SIS people
(45:21):
get to. Yeah, and and well, I think i've I
can't remember if I've mentioned this on the pod before,
if I I talked about your book for in a
Pride video series a couple of months ago, and I
was talking about how something that I think that the
best kind of writing about queerness and transness is one
(45:43):
where in the book has a trans character and has
no need to come to a screeching halt to like
explain that, you know what I mean, Like the trans
character exists, and where we have this like this, like
this plotting of emotional manipulated manipulation as whatever we want
(46:07):
to call it, tagged to her transness. The book in
and of itself doesn't interface with like only transphobia, like
it the book, like kind of the Shenanikins and the
rompang around has is like so much more than that.
It's actually just it's just entertaining, yes, but it's still
(46:28):
it's still is all explicitly tied to her transness, because
I really set out to write a story in which
the plot couldn't exist if the character wasn't trans. Those
are the kinds of stories I'm interested in, and I'm
so inspired by other trans authors who have done that,
you know, people like Gretchen Valger Martin and Tory Peters
(46:53):
who are writing you know, because I feel like so
so often the part line is like and it doesn't
even matter, It doesn't even matter that she's trans or like,
and she just happens about that. It's extremely about that,
because our lives and the ways we interact with the
(47:13):
world are different because of our transness, and that is
not something that we should minimize. And they haven't been
written yet, Like, yes, your book belongs to like an
amazing slate of like trans author authors publishing things right now,
but we are still in the infancy of trans fiction
as a genre. Yes, exactly, like it's it's it's like
(47:36):
if you think about it at an on timeline of
like you know, a growing up like sis, fiction has
had jillions of years to write and make work, and
so we've kind of seen everything there is to see
from CIS stories, and so trans literature like obviously trans
(48:01):
literature hasn't existed also since the Dawn time, but are
trans trans cultural production produced to a level of like
Summer ram com book is like in its infancy, and
also trans people telling our own stories and centering transnists
(48:24):
in them is still pretty you know, uh, pretty new
and radical in certain ways, and I hope people respond
to it. And I know you said this book is
for trans people, but I would also say this book
is for people who love books that are funny. It's
(48:46):
a really funny book. So if you're a lover of comedy,
you will love this book. I would say, if you
love a rom com, you love this book. If you
need a bet read, you love this book or a
vacation read. I think this book is really delicious because
it has like chapter like a lot of the chapters
are like three or four pages long, and I think
think that book Cadence a kind of Casey mc question,
(49:08):
I mean doesn't belong to them, but like a kind
of like there's a beach read cadence of short, digestible
chapters that's like really really nice. It does. I've had
a lot of people say to me in a very
positive way that they read it in one sitting, like
they really couldn't put it down. And it does move
(49:28):
very quickly. It's like it's a short novel. It's two
hundred and eighty eight pages, but there's a lot packed
in there. The pros is very dense, as I discovered
when I did my first reading of it. It was
like dense. How Like it's just so like Joe Keavy
is so introspective, jokes per minute are really on. Julia's
(49:51):
internal monologue is always running at like a twelve out
of ten. Yeah, which I love, though I mean like
sometimes that can be overbearing in here. I actually think
that there's just there's a lot that it's it's you're
you're you're playing it. You're I think you're overplaying a
little bit. There's a lot of scenes, it's it's a
lot of like it feels like a movie. It feels
like you're reading a movie. A lot of the time,
(50:12):
which is why I immediately wanted a fancast when I
was when I finished, I want to end on rom
coms like a thematic. We've we've I feel like we
haven't done a whole episode on rom coms. Have we Yeah,
we have, we have, we have. I'm pretty sure I
can't remember, but I think we have. What is the
state of the rom com right now to you? In
(50:32):
TV films, books, movie movies, but you see you alluded earlier,
you're like the rom comms little rotten right now. I
mean they're getting materialists, they're getting made, but they are
largely relegated to streaming, and they are kind of served
up as almost like anciliary content and kind of scene
as like lesser than when they used to be, like
very much the tent poles of culture. It used to
(50:56):
be the blockbusters. Yes, And I do think it's because,
you know, just like the way that media has changed
and the kind the types of films that get made,
you know, like the marvelification of media, These movies that
are often very sexless, even when there are you know,
(51:18):
when there is romance in them. Romance is important. Also,
family stories are important, and stories about coming to terms
with their identity are important, and those things are are
valuable and meaningful. And I would love to see, you know,
a romantic comedy resurgence in which we're not just getting
(51:39):
you know, even though this is kind of like a
remix in some ways of a pre existing romantic comedy,
like it is a holy it is an original story,
and I would love to see more original romantic comedies
that are that are risky. Yeah, and there are what
what else? Like? Yeah? More like I also like prefer
(52:02):
romantic comedies that have primary and secondary characters that are
fucking weird, Like I think we don't get a lot
of that. I think a lot of rom coms in
the canon are about normies. Did that make sense? Well,
that's why. That's why my best Friend's wedding was so
transgressive was because Julia Roberts was a bad person. Bad
person I didn't I totally didn't even understand that when
(52:25):
I so when my first we talked about this in
the episode about my best Friend's wedding way back when.
But when I first watched my best friend's wedding, I
was kind of like, I mean, I kind of like
thought that a lot of the things she was doing.
I was like, that's fine, like she's she's being awful,
but like, actually I would I would do that too, sure, whatever,
But I also remember watching it and being like I
didn't understand I really didn't understand her motivations and I
(52:48):
didn't understand why the character was the way she was.
And I retroactively am like thinking about my reaction to
the first being of that film as something that was
claud How would it buy a canon of rom coms
that were very normy, a canon of rom comms that
were all kind of these perfect protagonists, these perfect Julia
(53:10):
Roberts esque protagonists, And here was Julie Roberts actually being
extremely imperfect. And I didn't get that kind of misogynist
of me, honestly. Okay, anything else you want to say
about the state of the rom com I think this
is like a juicy end note because I feel like
I want to see more original stories. Yes, I want
to see more transrom coms. Yes, I want to say
(53:31):
I would rom coms to be hornier, hornier, thank you,
Oh my god, this book is so horny, you guys.
The sex scenes are one and there are multiple. It's
crazy to me. My grandparents have read sex scenes that
I wrote. You also you well, sorry, I don't be
mad at me for saying this, but you had sex
(53:51):
scenes that had that were edited, that were yeah, tinkered with,
tinkered with a little bit. But I think but I
think there were Ultimately, ultimately it was in service because
this book is not it's not like a spicy kind
of mutt. It's not smut. It's not my sweet Audrina,
it's it's it' that'll be. It's the horny. It's horny
(54:16):
and sexy. But it's not smutty. No, it's not smuddy.
There's a there's there's a lot of yearning in it.
There's ellipse, there's ellipses, and there's there's But I also
think it's pretty frank about sex. Yes it is. It
doesn't shy away from it at all, which I love.
And it has sex humor that's like very good and funny. Okay,
(54:40):
I think this concludes our terry gross as interview. I
I want to again say, if you are in New
York City on Center or in the Tristate area or
in the Tristate area, honestly, you should drive up for
it because it will be worth it. There might even
be an after party if things come to fruition the
way we want to. But come see Rose in conversation
with heron Walker on September two third. We need you
(55:01):
to buy a ticket. If you don't buy a ticket,
you're not a virgin, period. I'm saying that right here now,
even if you're not in New York, you should just
buy a ticket, just to do it. Like love that mentality, no, literally,
like we need you to get into swifty mode, sorry
to say it's swifty mode, and just like get into
the subreddits. And we need people buying books and buying
tickets to Rose Damie's book event with heron Walker on
(55:24):
set for twenty third at the Strand in New York City,
as well as the Los Angeles event on October twelfth, twelfth, twelfth, Yeah, twelfth,
No eighth eighth, eighth, eighth, October eighth at Annabel's Book Club,
and the Baltimore event at Grady Reid's on October second,
(55:46):
and the Boca Ratone event on October eighteenth at Barnes
and Noble. And also I'm doing a second New York
event in Brooklyn at Lofty Pigeon with Bobby Finger right oh,
my God be okay, And all the links for all
of these events are again in the description of this
podcast episode. Just click on over to find them, or
(56:07):
you can go to Rose Damu's instagram Rose DomU and
check her link tree and her bio and they're all there.
Thank you so much for doing this with me. This was,
I mean, it's my pleasure. It was. It's I mean,
you I insisted, just f why I roasted, don't ask
me to do this. I was like, we need to
do this because, uh, we just we want to we
(56:30):
want to set the record straight on your terms. Yes, okay.
And the controversy wait, it has there been controversy? No, No, no,
there's been. I mean you've had like you had like
one negative book Goodreads review or something like that like
months ago. For for the most part, people seem to
really enjoy it. And if they don't, it's kind of
(56:52):
in the ways that I wanted them to not enjoy it. Yeah. Actually,
did you send a copy the JK rolling yet? Yeah?
I had. I had it sent. And it's sort of
a drone strike. There's kind of like like a T
shirt cannon but for books, and it's being shot into
her castle windows. Uh, that'd be a really great use
(57:13):
of marketing. Someone did. Someone did. When I posted about
this on TikTok recently, someone said, don't en jk Rowling
like this. I mean coming. I'm coming for her gig.
She coming for his gig, his Jake Hay Rowling. Anyways,
that is Best Woman by Rose Dom. You go get
your copy, go buy your tickets. I am fran Torado
(57:36):
and this is fresh air. This is stank air, stank
air with love you
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