July 29, 2025 • 38 mins
Following the shocking murder of popular radio host Alan Berg, local law enforcement in Denver went weeks without much of a lead. But all that changed when an armored car was held up hundreds of miles away in Ukiah, California. A single piece of evidence from that brazen robbery swiftly cracked the case wide open, with FBI agent Wayne Manis uncovering a direct link between Berg's murder and a violent organization no one had heard of up to that point.
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
Live Wire is a production of iHeart Podcasts and Modulator Media.
Previously on live Wire, The Loud Life and Shocking Murder
of Alan Burg.
Speaker 2 (00:11):
The first question that came to everybody's mind was was
what happened?
Speaker 3 (00:17):
Why did Alan get murdered?
Speaker 2 (00:19):
There was a lot of wondering about was it something
to do with his personal life, Was it something to
do with his past life when he was an attorney
in Chicago and had some interactions with some of the
mafia supposedly, or some organized gangsters of one sort or another.
Or did it have something to do with the radio
(00:41):
station in his show and all of that.
Speaker 4 (00:45):
KOA morning talk show host Alan Berg reportedly was shot
and killed tonight in downtown Denver. Details of that shooting,
which happened around ten tonight or sketchy, However, Denver please
have identified the victim as Alan Berg.
Speaker 5 (00:58):
It was a devastating, a challenging situation for all of us.
There were private security guards that had been hired in
the lobby because we didn't know if this was wider
than Alan or if there were other people at the
radio station being targeted.
Speaker 6 (01:14):
The police launched essentially what was one of the largest,
if not the largest investigation into a murder in Denver
and in Denver's history, and they did all the things
that police do in those circumstances, case the neighborhood question people.
Speaker 7 (01:36):
And one day in July of nineteen eighty four, a
group of men robbed an armored car up in Ukaya, California,
in my district, and I became immediately assigned to work.
Speaker 8 (01:46):
On that case with the FBI agents, and they were
eventually beginning to learn that this wasn't one crime committed
by one person, but this was a series of crimes
committed by a group.
Speaker 1 (02:01):
By the time a group of men robbed an armored
car hundreds of miles away in Ukaya, California, Denver's police
and District Attorney had been hard at work for some
time on the biggest homicide case in the city's history.
Speaker 3 (02:14):
My name is David Heckenbach. At the time that we
were reviewing the Ellenberg homicide, I was My title was
chief Deputy in charge of the Complex Prosecutions Unit in
(02:38):
Denver for the District Attorney's office, and my job entailed
running all grand jury investigations, public corruption, and then any
what the elected DA My boss at that time norm
(03:01):
early decided was complicated enough for the Complex Prosecutions Unit
to be involved. Well, initially it was just news. It
was a big news item here in Colorado and certainly
in the Denver area. And I mean was you know,
(03:22):
newspapers are almost a thing in the past at this point,
but it was front page news for sure. It also
made national news, and so that's how I first became
aware of it.
Speaker 9 (03:39):
There could be a clue to who the murderer is
in the recent threats and the records that we have
at the station and the police might have, but then again,
there may not be. Alan was constantly joking about the
threats that were made on his life. I don't really
know how seriously he took them. Maybe he did, but
he never.
Speaker 3 (03:59):
Appeared to on this at the very beginning of the case. Yeah,
I think everybody had their suspicions. I mean, well, number one,
Allen was the guy, you know, I used the phrase
earlier that everybody loved to hate. He was extremely provocative.
(04:20):
He was a wild and crazy personality on the radio.
I'm not afraid to take on anybody over anything, and
he had I am sure many enemies.
Speaker 10 (04:35):
Do you guys want to hit for Chris, you're making
yourself right on this very conversation. You made an other
full of yourself. You have no credibility whatsoever. You dig
what I do.
Speaker 11 (04:45):
You have a need.
Speaker 10 (04:46):
Unfortunately, you have no sense of humor. That's why you
can't ever enjoy this show, and that's why you're a loser.
As all people have no sense of humor, and you
are categorically.
Speaker 1 (04:55):
One of them.
Speaker 10 (04:55):
By one line's open, I can't have you busy.
Speaker 3 (04:58):
And there was a tremendous amount of public pressure and
pressure among us in law enforcement to find the answers
and to bring these people to justice. Everybody was outraised.
It's not like we needed more motivation to try and
find these guys. But of course, the Jewish community, the
(05:26):
radio community, and we are dealing with somebody who was
basically killed for exercising his right to free speech. It
wasn't just an anti Semitic homicide. It was that, for sure,
but it was also much more than that. To have
(05:47):
someone come into town and assassinate a public figure in
the most brutal, senseless, cowardly manner with a machine gun
at close distance in his driveway. Of course, demanded justice.
(06:12):
Everybody they wanted to. They wanted to make sure they
knew that this could not happen in Denver or anywhere
else for that matter, without consequence. So yes, there was
a tremendous amount of pressure, but we felt very strongly
that we had to find these killers too. It's not
(06:35):
like we caved into pressure just to find these guys.
We wanted them badly, and the police department did an
amazing job, and then the FBI after them. But of course,
yes there was and you're right, there was a lag period,
if you will, a dead period of what the heck happened?
(07:00):
How are we going to figure this out?
Speaker 11 (07:02):
I've heard some.
Speaker 12 (07:03):
Various stormis among the neighbors that who love to hear
about the sound of tires screeching and leaving just when
it's down on the street. Guy said he heard it,
there was a guy and I find a nice suit.
I hear about the time Alan was shot. Of your
people have heard those same stories.
Speaker 11 (07:21):
I have not heard anything about a man in a suit. However,
I haven't compared notes recently.
Speaker 2 (07:29):
With all of the detectives, and there are various people
out doing things right now. So until they get together.
Speaker 12 (07:37):
And compare notes, who won't have a complete picture of
what's available tonight.
Speaker 2 (07:43):
That is Denver Deputy District Attorney Bill Buckley.
Speaker 1 (07:47):
The investigation into Alan Berg's murder ramped up considerably when
federal law enforcement came in to share their ample resources.
But no one involved in this complex investigation could ever
have imagined that it would be an army truck robbery
in northern California that proved to be the turning point
in their case. Here's Peter Robinson, who was then an
(08:07):
assistant US attorney in California's Northern District.
Speaker 7 (08:13):
Well, I think I heard about the crime on the news, actually,
and then I realized that an armored car robbery is
most likely to be a federal crime, and so I
would have some role in that, although at that time
I had no idea who had committed that crime.
Speaker 13 (08:28):
But it was a very brazen one.
Speaker 7 (08:29):
They held up a sign get out or die, and
they were blocking the traffic. Most of the people who
were driving on that road thought it was part of
some Hollywood movie, and so it was a rather spectacular crime.
The armored car was traveling very slowly because it was
a very steep hill, and they had to gear down
(08:53):
and all of a sudden, they pickup truck pulled in
front of it, forcing it to come to a stop.
Even at the slow speed it was going. There was
a pickup truck behind it went alongside it, and so
all the men jumped out at that point, pointed their
weapons and ordered the armored car guards to get out,
and within a few minutes had taken a lot of
(09:15):
money from the Brinks armored car and gotten away.
Speaker 3 (09:21):
With all that loot.
Speaker 1 (09:23):
The robbers walked away with three point six million.
Speaker 7 (09:26):
Dollars and probably within a few days, I was contacted
by an FBI agent who's in charge of investigating that crime,
and he started briefing me on what they were doing,
and they started working on the case slowly and systematically,
learning more and more about this group known as the Order,
(09:48):
which I had never.
Speaker 13 (09:49):
Heard of before this crime. I hadn't even heard actually
of the murder of Alan Byrd.
Speaker 1 (09:55):
I'm filmmaker and journalist tal Pinschewski, and this is episode
seven cracking the case. The robbery appeared to have been
meticulously planned, but the team behind it had been sloppy
in their execution, leaving behind a firearm at the scene
of the crime.
Speaker 7 (10:13):
That was The biggest break in the case was that
in the back of the armored car there was a
handgun that was left and it wasn't belonging to any
of the armored car personnel, so it was immediately seized
on as an.
Speaker 13 (10:25):
Important piece of evidence.
Speaker 7 (10:28):
Shortly thereafter, because of that gun, they traced it to
Andrew Barnhill. They started looking at him and also thinking
that since these men were from out of the area,
they probably stayed at motels, and they started canvassing the
motels and found in Santa Rosa that the men had
stayed at A number of them had stayed at a
(10:49):
local motel six or Super eight or something like that.
Speaker 13 (10:53):
There was a.
Speaker 7 (10:57):
Tracing of the car so that we found out that
they had been purchased in Santa Rosa recently for cash,
and so we've got descriptions of the people who had
purchased those cars, and little by little started building a
case and identifying individuals who were involved in the planning
and participation of the robbery, and with.
Speaker 1 (11:15):
The resources of the FBI at their disposal, the details
of the case soon began to emerge.
Speaker 13 (11:21):
Yeah.
Speaker 7 (11:21):
Well, the FBI immediately ran the serial number of the
gun into the National Firearms Registry and determined it had
been registered to an individual named Andrew Barnhill who had
purchased that gun in Bozeman, Montana. And so as a
result of that, they started running Andrew Barnhill. I think
they found that he had been arrested. I might be
(11:42):
wrong about this, but they'd been arrested.
Speaker 13 (11:44):
Somewhere in Oregon with another individual, and.
Speaker 7 (11:48):
Then that started to lead to at some point there
was already an open investigation of the Order up in Quarterlaine, Idaho,
and FBI agent named Wayne Mannis.
Speaker 11 (12:00):
Well, my name is Wayne Mannis.
Speaker 14 (12:03):
I was formerly an FBI agent.
Speaker 11 (12:07):
For twenty eight years.
Speaker 14 (12:11):
And I had extensive experience at various places throughout the
United States, both in working as a special agent overtly
and then also covertly in undercovered capacities as well.
Speaker 11 (12:32):
And in a course of.
Speaker 14 (12:34):
Time I ended up in the northern part of Idaho
investigating a group that was known as the Order or
the British Wagon, and they were a domestic terrorist group
led by a man by the name of Robert Matthews.
Speaker 1 (12:58):
If you're wondering why we Manus's voice is coming through
a phone line, the former federal agent is kind of
old school. At eighty five. Manus is retired and lives
on a modest, very isolated ranch in northern Idaho. He
doesn't use a computer or tablet and doesn't know how
zoom works, so the phone is typically the best way
(13:18):
to contact him.
Speaker 11 (13:20):
And this group I was investigating.
Speaker 14 (13:26):
Happened to be affiliated with.
Speaker 11 (13:30):
Another group called the Arian Nation. An Arian Nations.
Speaker 14 (13:35):
Had a yearly conference wherein they called in a large
number of like minded people affiliated with multitude of groups
across the country, including the q Kux Klan and the
(13:56):
Covenant Sword.
Speaker 13 (13:57):
Arm of the Lord, and.
Speaker 14 (14:00):
There's a lot of the Mountain Church of Johanktor, Michigan,
and the list goes on and on. But they had
their meeting in June of nineteen eighty four, and in
the course of that meeting, one of the.
Speaker 3 (14:17):
People that I was.
Speaker 14 (14:20):
Interested in taking a look at in regard to potential
criminal activity.
Speaker 11 (14:31):
Was present at that meeting and gave a speech, And.
Speaker 14 (14:39):
In the course of given the speech promoting his line
of thought, he said that he belonged to an organization
and that it was.
Speaker 11 (14:53):
Taking a strong foothold.
Speaker 14 (14:55):
And that they had eliminated already one of their Jewish enemies.
Speaker 1 (15:09):
Wayne estimates about three hundred people were present at this meeting,
maybe more, maybe less, but none of them were sad
to hear this news.
Speaker 14 (15:18):
Regardless of which group they might belong to. They were
all very much opposed to the Jews, and they were
all certainly anti Semitic, and they took great interest in
the fact that his fellow, Lewis Theme was his name,
(15:39):
was announcing to all of them that this sacred group
that he belonged to had taken wings and they had
already eliminated one of their Jewish counterparts. He did not
name who.
Speaker 1 (15:53):
Was Lewis Beam didn't tell the crowd which of their
quote Jewish enemies had been eliminated. Wayne heard about the
speech somehow.
Speaker 14 (16:03):
I can't really say about comfortable saying as to how
the information came to me about Lewis Beam and the
speech that he made, but I.
Speaker 11 (16:20):
Can say that I had.
Speaker 14 (16:26):
Legally and reliably acquired the information.
Speaker 1 (16:31):
And with the information he had legally and reliably acquired,
Wayne Manace sprung into action.
Speaker 11 (16:37):
That caused me to immediately.
Speaker 14 (16:43):
Commence and investigating search as to who that might be.
Speaker 11 (16:46):
And that's when.
Speaker 14 (16:47):
I learned that a prominent Jewish radio talk show Post Endeavor,
Colorado named Alan Berg had been assassinated.
Speaker 11 (17:03):
I brought in a.
Speaker 14 (17:05):
Number of other agents and operaties of one type or
another to assist me in developing criminal cases relating.
Speaker 11 (17:20):
To this secret organization, which.
Speaker 14 (17:24):
I didn't even know the name at the time, but
as it turns out, it was a group that had
sprang from both the Area Nations and from the Covenant's
Sword En arm of the Lord, from the q pux
Klan and various other organizations to form a criminal enterprise
(17:51):
to basically overthrow the United States government.
Speaker 1 (17:58):
Between Wayne Mannis's discovery while investigating white supremacist extremist organizations
in Idaho and Peter Robinson's investigation of the armored car
robbery in Yucaya, California, the Alan Bird case broke wide open,
and the truth behind this crime was stunning, with all
the evidence pointing to a nationalist militia that appeared to
(18:19):
have traveled across state lines with the explicit intention of
assassinating Alan Burke.
Speaker 7 (18:25):
I think pretty soon after that armored car robbery, the
FBI was aware that there had been some other armored
car robberies up in the Seattle area and it was
maybe within a few days or a week that they'd
connected those and we realized that there was other crimes
committed by the same group, other armored car robberies, and
(18:48):
it's connected to this group that was headquartered in Sipping Northwest.
Speaker 13 (18:54):
And at that point I can't remember even then if
we knew the name was the Order or just.
Speaker 7 (18:59):
The There was a group of white men who wanted
to start their own whites only state up there in
the Pacific Northwest.
Speaker 3 (19:10):
The Order.
Speaker 1 (19:11):
Remember that name, it's going to come up again.
Speaker 7 (19:14):
It was a complete shock to learn that there was
a group like that who were dedicated to a white
only state in the part of the United States, and
we're committing these serious crimes.
Speaker 13 (19:27):
I had never even imagined that.
Speaker 1 (19:30):
And soon these investigations started to merge.
Speaker 7 (19:34):
Wayne Manus was working with an assistant US attorney in Idaho,
and the FBI agents were working with me in California.
But at a certain point I think that I'm not
sure exactly whether any of them had yet been arrested
on any charges, smaller charges, or we were trying to
figure out how this was going to work once we
(19:56):
got details. But at some point we decided we should
combine our forces and try to prosecute these people all
in one case.
Speaker 1 (20:04):
Peter Robinson's education about the Order was swift and shocking.
Like many organizations of that ilk at the time, the
Order was well versed in the teachings of Richard Butler,
who is a frequent guest on Alan Bert's show, as
well as the Turner Divers, a piece of literature that
was quite popular among these groups.
Speaker 14 (20:23):
And the group consisted of something over twenty individuals at
that particular time.
Speaker 11 (20:33):
All of them were led by a man named Robert.
Speaker 14 (20:36):
Matthews who lived in Medelane Falls, which is somewhat northwest
doug where I was located in Court Lane. And I
began to identify all the memories associated with that group,
and I and began to identify crimes that I felt
(20:58):
were associated or were crimes that we're actually conducted by
that group, bank robbery, counterfeiting.
Speaker 11 (21:08):
Armored car robberies, and then some acts.
Speaker 14 (21:12):
Of violss that we're not income producing, like bombing of
a synagogue and things such.
Speaker 11 (21:21):
As that.
Speaker 3 (21:23):
Soldiers in the core. What is the cause ra what
is the oath?
Speaker 2 (21:33):
To deliver our people from the.
Speaker 1 (21:36):
Jew This is a performance of a sermon conducted by
the Order that aired in a special produced by KAA
after Allenberg's murder.
Speaker 2 (21:44):
What is the purpose the future of our children?
Speaker 3 (21:49):
What is the method revolution? What is the goal victory?
What is the price? There? White man, rise and meet
your brother.
Speaker 1 (22:05):
This wasn't just a group of like minded bigots waxing
on about how they wanted to take their country back.
This was a very sophisticated assemblage of individuals who meticulously
planned a series of serious crimes, all part of an
ultimate plan to overthrow the government of the United States
and install a new white supremacist order.
Speaker 14 (22:27):
An interesting thing that we learned during the course of
this investigation is that two members and Breaks in San
Francisco had been recruited by Robert Matthews. To show you
how COMPLEXUS and this organization was, and these two members
of Brinks were cooperating, providing intelligence to Robert Matthews as
(22:50):
to his particular trucking, where it would be and how
it could be Robb's how much money it would have.
Speaker 1 (23:01):
Through the collaborative efforts between local and federal authorities, alan
Berg's murder investigation expanded in a way no one could
have predicted. The Order had been identified as the group
behind his assassination, but what was the connective tissue between
alan Berg and the Order? Once the Order was identified,
it didn't take long to find the name that brought
(23:22):
everything together.
Speaker 14 (23:24):
And one of the things I learned early on as
I began to identify members that I felt belonging to
the Order was one of the memories that I identified when
it was followed my name of David Lane.
Speaker 11 (23:37):
And then then reviewing and looking at the.
Speaker 14 (23:40):
Murder of ellen Berg and his curious broadcast that he had,
I discovered that Alan Burge had had a very controversial
conversation with Alan Berg on one of his radio shows
(24:00):
one night, and that.
Speaker 11 (24:04):
Alan Berg so.
Speaker 14 (24:08):
Humiliated David Lane in.
Speaker 11 (24:12):
The course of that conversation that.
Speaker 14 (24:16):
David Lane was offended and the entire organization to which
he belonged was offended, and alan Berg became a prime
the enemy of this organization.
Speaker 11 (24:32):
Known as the Order.
Speaker 1 (24:33):
If the name David Lane sounds familiar, it should. He
was specifically mentioned, albeit briefly, in episode four.
Speaker 3 (24:42):
I can remember when when this first happened, even I mean,
just as a person who used to listen to the
show regularly, I was thinking you know, I wonder if
it was David Lane and some of his cohorts.
Speaker 1 (24:57):
This is David Heckenbach. At the time Allen's murder, he
was working for the District Attorney's office in Denver.
Speaker 3 (25:04):
Everybody wanted answers and so but I honestly, all I
can tell you is that I personally remember that they
had very heated exchanges. I couldn't tell you any of
the specific words. It was forty over forty years ago,
but David Lane's name was known to me only as
(25:29):
a listener to the ilan Berg Show on the radio.
Speaker 13 (25:33):
It was David Lane.
Speaker 7 (25:34):
I think who who was from Colorado? Who was the
one that was the most upset? And I think it
was the interview with Colonel Jack Moore that led to
him being upset.
Speaker 9 (25:45):
I've been on programs like this many many times before,
and I've run into tomos like you that interrupted and
tried about No.
Speaker 10 (25:52):
Jack, you have barely been interrupted all bar Jack, So
don't give me that don't give me that guard. But
you haven't been interrupted at all.
Speaker 13 (25:58):
Man.
Speaker 6 (25:59):
Let me give ahead.
Speaker 3 (26:00):
Jack.
Speaker 1 (26:01):
This is the infamous on air exchange alan Berg had
with Colonel Jack Moore and Reverend Pete Peters in early
nineteen eighty four, the fiery argument that ended abruptly and
was so integral to the murder investigation that KOA reporter
Lori Cantillo actually tracked down Peters in order to get
a recording of the interview.
Speaker 7 (26:21):
The FBI is.
Speaker 15 (26:22):
Taking a hard look at a talk show Berg did
the night of February thirteenth, nineteen eighty four. Burg arranged
to have as his guest the Reverend Pete Peters and
Gordon Jack Moore of the Christian Patriots Defense League. Peters
had arranged for More to speak at his Laporte Church
of Christ a few days earlier in a talk that
made headlines because of Moore's views that Jews are conspiring
to take over the world through communism, and that's how
(26:43):
Berg and Moore opened the show.
Speaker 7 (26:45):
So they put him on their enemies list for that.
It seemed like a pretty minor thing to kill somebody for.
But anyway, I didn't really know Alan Berg or what
he was like on the radio, why these guys fixated
on him, but they did. They also were wanting to
(27:06):
kill this guy, Morris des who was suing the klu
Klux Klan and probably would have done that if he
lived a little closer to them. So it was really
kind of an irrational thing that I could see that
led them to murder alan Berg, and I just felt
very badly for him and his family for having been
(27:30):
killed for just expressing his views.
Speaker 1 (27:33):
As it turns out, alan Berg wasn't the only person
who died at the hands of the Order.
Speaker 14 (27:39):
Bob Matthews was with his group was responsible for the
assassination of Alen Burgh, the assassination of another individual that
they feared might be co reading with me an invision
(28:01):
by name of Walter West.
Speaker 7 (28:03):
And they came to suspect that this one guy, Walter West,
was talking too much, not to law enforcement, but just
blabbing in the community. I think one of the members
of the Order knew his wife, and the wife told
him things that the member of the Order thought that
she should never have been told.
Speaker 14 (28:24):
Walter West also had a knowledge as to their counterfeiting
activities because he was a member of the Area Nations
and that's where the counterfeiting press was located when they
did their first counterfeiting. Ultimately, they became more professional and
they had a professional counterfeitter that produced forged identifications and
(28:47):
forged US currency in a very very professional manner. But
initially Walter West had that and had that information, and
they did assassinate Alter.
Speaker 7 (29:01):
So they lured him out into the woods and then
Richard Kemp struck him with a hammer on the head,
and ultimately they killed him in the woods and buried him.
Speaker 14 (29:13):
You might say the investigation took a very knowledgeable turn.
Speaker 11 (29:24):
Through the use of informants and.
Speaker 1 (29:27):
With members of the Order starting to speak more freely
about their crimes, finding and interviewing these snitches got easier
once investigators knew where to look.
Speaker 14 (29:37):
Some information regarding inform my coverage, of course, I won't
address I just I won't say how many or where
they were located, more capacity they worked.
Speaker 11 (29:53):
I won't address that now or at any time. Can say,
based upon public information.
Speaker 14 (30:05):
That it came forth subsequently in the course of criminal trials, that.
Speaker 11 (30:13):
There was at an individual.
Speaker 14 (30:17):
By the name of Tom Martinez, and Martinez belonged to
an organization known as the National Alliance. He was living
in Pennsylvania and became known to.
Speaker 11 (30:35):
The leader of the Order, Robert Matthews, and was very
much life by Robert.
Speaker 14 (30:47):
Matthews, and was invited into the organization of the Order
and was provided with counterfeit money, which, in the course
of marpton Is passing his counterfeit money, he was caught
(31:10):
and arrested by the Secret Service, and.
Speaker 11 (31:16):
While being interviewed by the.
Speaker 14 (31:19):
Secret Service agent, it became obvious to them.
Speaker 16 (31:26):
That he was affiliated with some organization that he feared
more than.
Speaker 14 (31:37):
Being convicted of the crime of passing consh of money.
Speaker 1 (31:42):
David Heckenbach was sent to talk with Martinez.
Speaker 3 (31:46):
Part of my job was also to go interview some
of the I call them snitches, informants, people who raided,
who were not directly involved in the shooting, who were
not there when the trigger was pulled, but who were
(32:08):
members of the Order, who knew about it and who
were being prosecuted, either for counterfeiting or for robbery of
an armored car, had traded there some information for some
(32:33):
considerations in their sentences, and I went up and I
spoke to those individuals as well up in the federal
pen up in Hinckley. Hinckley is a formidable facility, not
a place I would want to be or anybody else
I would imagine. And one of the things, several things
(32:57):
stand out. One is that the the mosquitoes were the
size of starlings. I mean they were huge. And the
biggest claim to fame that Hinckley, Minnesota has is the
Great Hinckley Fire, which is depicted on a mural in
the one and only restaurant in the middle of town.
(33:20):
And this fellow that we interviewed was he tried to
actually be a good host, if that makes sense. He
had access to some tasters choice instant coffee, and to him,
that was offering the best that he could offer us.
(33:44):
It would be like going to somebody else's mansion and
being offered caviaar For a prisoner in Hinckley. The Hinckley
Facility to offer us some of his instant coffee was
apparently a pretty big deal for this guy at the
In the end, he was a snitch. He had been
charged with counterfeiting. They had him dead to rights, and
(34:07):
he flipped on his fellow Order members in exchange for
some sentenced concessions on his counterfeiting charge. He was not
a good guy.
Speaker 1 (34:24):
By this point. Members of the Order, and especially their
leader Robert Matthews, were on the run.
Speaker 7 (34:30):
The FBI was very anxious to find out where he
was and where some of these guys were and to
arrest them because it seemed like they were very dangerous
at one point and desperate as they were on the run,
and particularly to find Robert Matthews became the highest priority
for the FBI in the country, and so we made
(34:52):
an agreement with one of the lesser involved people in
the order named Bill Soderquist, who was from Salinas, California,
and I was integally involved in that because we decided
to subpoena Soderquist to the federal grand jury in San Francisco.
Bill Soderquist was young, He was soft spoken, kind of blonde,
(35:17):
stocky guy. He was scared, I think, but really he
didn't show any signs of being a racist or any
other views of anti Semitic or anything like that. He
looked like a recent high school graduate who was kind
of a nerd, but very soft spoken and not a
(35:40):
very assertive period did not appear to be a very
strong individual. I think the FBI was doing a lot
of surveillance. I think through phone records they identified him
as one of the members of the group, and they
started surveilling his house, in his places where he might
fruquent and also Richard Kemp, who is his friend, who
is also from Sinis.
Speaker 13 (36:01):
We didn't have any charge at the time.
Speaker 7 (36:03):
We just subpoened him to come as a witness before
the Grain jury. But had he refused to testify or lied,
we probably would have charged him with conspiracy of the
armored car robbery, at least at that stage, because we
had information that he was one of the people who
participated in that.
Speaker 13 (36:20):
If you're ready to tell us.
Speaker 7 (36:21):
Everything, including where Bob Matthews can be found, will give
you immunity and you won't be prosecuted for any of
this as long as you testify truthfully.
Speaker 13 (36:31):
And he and his lawyers.
Speaker 7 (36:32):
Were discussing privately, you know, for a while, himming and hawing,
and finally I told him, you got fifteen minutes to
decide this. You know, be able to take this. In
fifteen minutes, you're going to get prosecuted yourself. And they
decided to do it. And so the FBI agens debriefed
him for hours and hours, and that information he provided
(36:53):
them led to them knowing that Robert Matthews was on
would be Island.
Speaker 1 (36:58):
With the Order in its configuration now identified, and some
members of the organization flipped his informants. The Allenberg murder
investigation was swiftly approaching its natural conclusion, but things would
take a startling turn as authorities closed in on this
white supremacist militia, culminating in a shocking exchange with Robert
(37:19):
Matthews at Whitby Island and an excruciating decision by the
Denver District Attorney's office. All that on the next episode
of live Wire, the Loud Life and Shocking Murder of
Alan Burgh. Live Wire is a production of iHeart Podcasts
and Modulator Media. For more podcasts from iHeart Podcasts, visit
(37:42):
the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
Live Wire is a production of iHeart Podcasts and Modulator Media.
Previously on live Wire, The Loud Life and Shocking Murder
of Alan Burg.
Speaker 2 (00:11):
The first question that came to everybody's mind was was
what happened?
Speaker 3 (00:17):
Why did Alan get murdered?
Speaker 2 (00:19):
There was a lot of wondering about was it something
to do with his personal life, Was it something to
do with his past life when he was an attorney
in Chicago and had some interactions with some of the
mafia supposedly, or some organized gangsters of one sort or another.
Or did it have something to do with the radio
(00:41):
station in his show and all of that.
Speaker 4 (00:45):
KOA morning talk show host Alan Berg reportedly was shot
and killed tonight in downtown Denver. Details of that shooting,
which happened around ten tonight or sketchy, However, Denver please
have identified the victim as Alan Berg.
Speaker 5 (00:58):
It was a devastating, a challenging situation for all of us.
There were private security guards that had been hired in
the lobby because we didn't know if this was wider
than Alan or if there were other people at the
radio station being targeted.
Speaker 6 (01:14):
The police launched essentially what was one of the largest,
if not the largest investigation into a murder in Denver
and in Denver's history, and they did all the things
that police do in those circumstances, case the neighborhood question people.
Speaker 7 (01:36):
And one day in July of nineteen eighty four, a
group of men robbed an armored car up in Ukaya, California,
in my district, and I became immediately assigned to work.
Speaker 8 (01:46):
On that case with the FBI agents, and they were
eventually beginning to learn that this wasn't one crime committed
by one person, but this was a series of crimes
committed by a group.
Speaker 1 (02:01):
By the time a group of men robbed an armored
car hundreds of miles away in Ukaya, California, Denver's police
and District Attorney had been hard at work for some
time on the biggest homicide case in the city's history.
Speaker 3 (02:14):
My name is David Heckenbach. At the time that we
were reviewing the Ellenberg homicide, I was My title was
chief Deputy in charge of the Complex Prosecutions Unit in
(02:38):
Denver for the District Attorney's office, and my job entailed
running all grand jury investigations, public corruption, and then any
what the elected DA My boss at that time norm
(03:01):
early decided was complicated enough for the Complex Prosecutions Unit
to be involved. Well, initially it was just news. It
was a big news item here in Colorado and certainly
in the Denver area. And I mean was you know,
(03:22):
newspapers are almost a thing in the past at this point,
but it was front page news for sure. It also
made national news, and so that's how I first became
aware of it.
Speaker 9 (03:39):
There could be a clue to who the murderer is
in the recent threats and the records that we have
at the station and the police might have, but then again,
there may not be. Alan was constantly joking about the
threats that were made on his life. I don't really
know how seriously he took them. Maybe he did, but
he never.
Speaker 3 (03:59):
Appeared to on this at the very beginning of the case. Yeah,
I think everybody had their suspicions. I mean, well, number one,
Allen was the guy, you know, I used the phrase
earlier that everybody loved to hate. He was extremely provocative.
(04:20):
He was a wild and crazy personality on the radio.
I'm not afraid to take on anybody over anything, and
he had I am sure many enemies.
Speaker 10 (04:35):
Do you guys want to hit for Chris, you're making
yourself right on this very conversation. You made an other
full of yourself. You have no credibility whatsoever. You dig
what I do.
Speaker 11 (04:45):
You have a need.
Speaker 10 (04:46):
Unfortunately, you have no sense of humor. That's why you
can't ever enjoy this show, and that's why you're a loser.
As all people have no sense of humor, and you
are categorically.
Speaker 1 (04:55):
One of them.
Speaker 10 (04:55):
By one line's open, I can't have you busy.
Speaker 3 (04:58):
And there was a tremendous amount of public pressure and
pressure among us in law enforcement to find the answers
and to bring these people to justice. Everybody was outraised.
It's not like we needed more motivation to try and
find these guys. But of course, the Jewish community, the
(05:26):
radio community, and we are dealing with somebody who was
basically killed for exercising his right to free speech. It
wasn't just an anti Semitic homicide. It was that, for sure,
but it was also much more than that. To have
(05:47):
someone come into town and assassinate a public figure in
the most brutal, senseless, cowardly manner with a machine gun
at close distance in his driveway. Of course, demanded justice.
(06:12):
Everybody they wanted to. They wanted to make sure they
knew that this could not happen in Denver or anywhere
else for that matter, without consequence. So yes, there was
a tremendous amount of pressure, but we felt very strongly
that we had to find these killers too. It's not
(06:35):
like we caved into pressure just to find these guys.
We wanted them badly, and the police department did an
amazing job, and then the FBI after them. But of course,
yes there was and you're right, there was a lag period,
if you will, a dead period of what the heck happened?
(07:00):
How are we going to figure this out?
Speaker 11 (07:02):
I've heard some.
Speaker 12 (07:03):
Various stormis among the neighbors that who love to hear
about the sound of tires screeching and leaving just when
it's down on the street. Guy said he heard it,
there was a guy and I find a nice suit.
I hear about the time Alan was shot. Of your
people have heard those same stories.
Speaker 11 (07:21):
I have not heard anything about a man in a suit. However,
I haven't compared notes recently.
Speaker 2 (07:29):
With all of the detectives, and there are various people
out doing things right now. So until they get together.
Speaker 12 (07:37):
And compare notes, who won't have a complete picture of
what's available tonight.
Speaker 2 (07:43):
That is Denver Deputy District Attorney Bill Buckley.
Speaker 1 (07:47):
The investigation into Alan Berg's murder ramped up considerably when
federal law enforcement came in to share their ample resources.
But no one involved in this complex investigation could ever
have imagined that it would be an army truck robbery
in northern California that proved to be the turning point
in their case. Here's Peter Robinson, who was then an
(08:07):
assistant US attorney in California's Northern District.
Speaker 7 (08:13):
Well, I think I heard about the crime on the news, actually,
and then I realized that an armored car robbery is
most likely to be a federal crime, and so I
would have some role in that, although at that time
I had no idea who had committed that crime.
Speaker 13 (08:28):
But it was a very brazen one.
Speaker 7 (08:29):
They held up a sign get out or die, and
they were blocking the traffic. Most of the people who
were driving on that road thought it was part of
some Hollywood movie, and so it was a rather spectacular crime.
The armored car was traveling very slowly because it was
a very steep hill, and they had to gear down
(08:53):
and all of a sudden, they pickup truck pulled in
front of it, forcing it to come to a stop.
Even at the slow speed it was going. There was
a pickup truck behind it went alongside it, and so
all the men jumped out at that point, pointed their
weapons and ordered the armored car guards to get out,
and within a few minutes had taken a lot of
(09:15):
money from the Brinks armored car and gotten away.
Speaker 3 (09:21):
With all that loot.
Speaker 1 (09:23):
The robbers walked away with three point six million.
Speaker 7 (09:26):
Dollars and probably within a few days, I was contacted
by an FBI agent who's in charge of investigating that crime,
and he started briefing me on what they were doing,
and they started working on the case slowly and systematically,
learning more and more about this group known as the Order,
(09:48):
which I had never.
Speaker 13 (09:49):
Heard of before this crime. I hadn't even heard actually
of the murder of Alan Byrd.
Speaker 1 (09:55):
I'm filmmaker and journalist tal Pinschewski, and this is episode
seven cracking the case. The robbery appeared to have been
meticulously planned, but the team behind it had been sloppy
in their execution, leaving behind a firearm at the scene
of the crime.
Speaker 7 (10:13):
That was The biggest break in the case was that
in the back of the armored car there was a
handgun that was left and it wasn't belonging to any
of the armored car personnel, so it was immediately seized
on as an.
Speaker 13 (10:25):
Important piece of evidence.
Speaker 7 (10:28):
Shortly thereafter, because of that gun, they traced it to
Andrew Barnhill. They started looking at him and also thinking
that since these men were from out of the area,
they probably stayed at motels, and they started canvassing the
motels and found in Santa Rosa that the men had
stayed at A number of them had stayed at a
(10:49):
local motel six or Super eight or something like that.
Speaker 13 (10:53):
There was a.
Speaker 7 (10:57):
Tracing of the car so that we found out that
they had been purchased in Santa Rosa recently for cash,
and so we've got descriptions of the people who had
purchased those cars, and little by little started building a
case and identifying individuals who were involved in the planning
and participation of the robbery, and with.
Speaker 1 (11:15):
The resources of the FBI at their disposal, the details
of the case soon began to emerge.
Speaker 13 (11:21):
Yeah.
Speaker 7 (11:21):
Well, the FBI immediately ran the serial number of the
gun into the National Firearms Registry and determined it had
been registered to an individual named Andrew Barnhill who had
purchased that gun in Bozeman, Montana. And so as a
result of that, they started running Andrew Barnhill. I think
they found that he had been arrested. I might be
(11:42):
wrong about this, but they'd been arrested.
Speaker 13 (11:44):
Somewhere in Oregon with another individual, and.
Speaker 7 (11:48):
Then that started to lead to at some point there
was already an open investigation of the Order up in Quarterlaine, Idaho,
and FBI agent named Wayne Mannis.
Speaker 11 (12:00):
Well, my name is Wayne Mannis.
Speaker 14 (12:03):
I was formerly an FBI agent.
Speaker 11 (12:07):
For twenty eight years.
Speaker 14 (12:11):
And I had extensive experience at various places throughout the
United States, both in working as a special agent overtly
and then also covertly in undercovered capacities as well.
Speaker 11 (12:32):
And in a course of.
Speaker 14 (12:34):
Time I ended up in the northern part of Idaho
investigating a group that was known as the Order or
the British Wagon, and they were a domestic terrorist group
led by a man by the name of Robert Matthews.
Speaker 1 (12:58):
If you're wondering why we Manus's voice is coming through
a phone line, the former federal agent is kind of
old school. At eighty five. Manus is retired and lives
on a modest, very isolated ranch in northern Idaho. He
doesn't use a computer or tablet and doesn't know how
zoom works, so the phone is typically the best way
(13:18):
to contact him.
Speaker 11 (13:20):
And this group I was investigating.
Speaker 14 (13:26):
Happened to be affiliated with.
Speaker 11 (13:30):
Another group called the Arian Nation. An Arian Nations.
Speaker 14 (13:35):
Had a yearly conference wherein they called in a large
number of like minded people affiliated with multitude of groups
across the country, including the q Kux Klan and the
(13:56):
Covenant Sword.
Speaker 13 (13:57):
Arm of the Lord, and.
Speaker 14 (14:00):
There's a lot of the Mountain Church of Johanktor, Michigan,
and the list goes on and on. But they had
their meeting in June of nineteen eighty four, and in
the course of that meeting, one of the.
Speaker 3 (14:17):
People that I was.
Speaker 14 (14:20):
Interested in taking a look at in regard to potential
criminal activity.
Speaker 11 (14:31):
Was present at that meeting and gave a speech, And.
Speaker 14 (14:39):
In the course of given the speech promoting his line
of thought, he said that he belonged to an organization
and that it was.
Speaker 11 (14:53):
Taking a strong foothold.
Speaker 14 (14:55):
And that they had eliminated already one of their Jewish enemies.
Speaker 1 (15:09):
Wayne estimates about three hundred people were present at this meeting,
maybe more, maybe less, but none of them were sad
to hear this news.
Speaker 14 (15:18):
Regardless of which group they might belong to. They were
all very much opposed to the Jews, and they were
all certainly anti Semitic, and they took great interest in
the fact that his fellow, Lewis Theme was his name,
(15:39):
was announcing to all of them that this sacred group
that he belonged to had taken wings and they had
already eliminated one of their Jewish counterparts. He did not
name who.
Speaker 1 (15:53):
Was Lewis Beam didn't tell the crowd which of their
quote Jewish enemies had been eliminated. Wayne heard about the
speech somehow.
Speaker 14 (16:03):
I can't really say about comfortable saying as to how
the information came to me about Lewis Beam and the
speech that he made, but I.
Speaker 11 (16:20):
Can say that I had.
Speaker 14 (16:26):
Legally and reliably acquired the information.
Speaker 1 (16:31):
And with the information he had legally and reliably acquired,
Wayne Manace sprung into action.
Speaker 11 (16:37):
That caused me to immediately.
Speaker 14 (16:43):
Commence and investigating search as to who that might be.
Speaker 11 (16:46):
And that's when.
Speaker 14 (16:47):
I learned that a prominent Jewish radio talk show Post Endeavor,
Colorado named Alan Berg had been assassinated.
Speaker 11 (17:03):
I brought in a.
Speaker 14 (17:05):
Number of other agents and operaties of one type or
another to assist me in developing criminal cases relating.
Speaker 11 (17:20):
To this secret organization, which.
Speaker 14 (17:24):
I didn't even know the name at the time, but
as it turns out, it was a group that had
sprang from both the Area Nations and from the Covenant's
Sword En arm of the Lord, from the q pux
Klan and various other organizations to form a criminal enterprise
(17:51):
to basically overthrow the United States government.
Speaker 1 (17:58):
Between Wayne Mannis's discovery while investigating white supremacist extremist organizations
in Idaho and Peter Robinson's investigation of the armored car
robbery in Yucaya, California, the Alan Bird case broke wide open,
and the truth behind this crime was stunning, with all
the evidence pointing to a nationalist militia that appeared to
(18:19):
have traveled across state lines with the explicit intention of
assassinating Alan Burke.
Speaker 7 (18:25):
I think pretty soon after that armored car robbery, the
FBI was aware that there had been some other armored
car robberies up in the Seattle area and it was
maybe within a few days or a week that they'd
connected those and we realized that there was other crimes
committed by the same group, other armored car robberies, and
(18:48):
it's connected to this group that was headquartered in Sipping Northwest.
Speaker 13 (18:54):
And at that point I can't remember even then if
we knew the name was the Order or just.
Speaker 7 (18:59):
The There was a group of white men who wanted
to start their own whites only state up there in
the Pacific Northwest.
Speaker 3 (19:10):
The Order.
Speaker 1 (19:11):
Remember that name, it's going to come up again.
Speaker 7 (19:14):
It was a complete shock to learn that there was
a group like that who were dedicated to a white
only state in the part of the United States, and
we're committing these serious crimes.
Speaker 13 (19:27):
I had never even imagined that.
Speaker 1 (19:30):
And soon these investigations started to merge.
Speaker 7 (19:34):
Wayne Manus was working with an assistant US attorney in Idaho,
and the FBI agents were working with me in California.
But at a certain point I think that I'm not
sure exactly whether any of them had yet been arrested
on any charges, smaller charges, or we were trying to
figure out how this was going to work once we
(19:56):
got details. But at some point we decided we should
combine our forces and try to prosecute these people all
in one case.
Speaker 1 (20:04):
Peter Robinson's education about the Order was swift and shocking.
Like many organizations of that ilk at the time, the
Order was well versed in the teachings of Richard Butler,
who is a frequent guest on Alan Bert's show, as
well as the Turner Divers, a piece of literature that
was quite popular among these groups.
Speaker 14 (20:23):
And the group consisted of something over twenty individuals at
that particular time.
Speaker 11 (20:33):
All of them were led by a man named Robert.
Speaker 14 (20:36):
Matthews who lived in Medelane Falls, which is somewhat northwest
doug where I was located in Court Lane. And I
began to identify all the memories associated with that group,
and I and began to identify crimes that I felt
(20:58):
were associated or were crimes that we're actually conducted by
that group, bank robbery, counterfeiting.
Speaker 11 (21:08):
Armored car robberies, and then some acts.
Speaker 14 (21:12):
Of violss that we're not income producing, like bombing of
a synagogue and things such.
Speaker 11 (21:21):
As that.
Speaker 3 (21:23):
Soldiers in the core. What is the cause ra what
is the oath?
Speaker 2 (21:33):
To deliver our people from the.
Speaker 1 (21:36):
Jew This is a performance of a sermon conducted by
the Order that aired in a special produced by KAA
after Allenberg's murder.
Speaker 2 (21:44):
What is the purpose the future of our children?
Speaker 3 (21:49):
What is the method revolution? What is the goal victory?
What is the price? There? White man, rise and meet
your brother.
Speaker 1 (22:05):
This wasn't just a group of like minded bigots waxing
on about how they wanted to take their country back.
This was a very sophisticated assemblage of individuals who meticulously
planned a series of serious crimes, all part of an
ultimate plan to overthrow the government of the United States
and install a new white supremacist order.
Speaker 14 (22:27):
An interesting thing that we learned during the course of
this investigation is that two members and Breaks in San
Francisco had been recruited by Robert Matthews. To show you
how COMPLEXUS and this organization was, and these two members
of Brinks were cooperating, providing intelligence to Robert Matthews as
(22:50):
to his particular trucking, where it would be and how
it could be Robb's how much money it would have.
Speaker 1 (23:01):
Through the collaborative efforts between local and federal authorities, alan
Berg's murder investigation expanded in a way no one could
have predicted. The Order had been identified as the group
behind his assassination, but what was the connective tissue between
alan Berg and the Order? Once the Order was identified,
it didn't take long to find the name that brought
(23:22):
everything together.
Speaker 14 (23:24):
And one of the things I learned early on as
I began to identify members that I felt belonging to
the Order was one of the memories that I identified when
it was followed my name of David Lane.
Speaker 11 (23:37):
And then then reviewing and looking at the.
Speaker 14 (23:40):
Murder of ellen Berg and his curious broadcast that he had,
I discovered that Alan Burge had had a very controversial
conversation with Alan Berg on one of his radio shows
(24:00):
one night, and that.
Speaker 11 (24:04):
Alan Berg so.
Speaker 14 (24:08):
Humiliated David Lane in.
Speaker 11 (24:12):
The course of that conversation that.
Speaker 14 (24:16):
David Lane was offended and the entire organization to which
he belonged was offended, and alan Berg became a prime
the enemy of this organization.
Speaker 11 (24:32):
Known as the Order.
Speaker 1 (24:33):
If the name David Lane sounds familiar, it should. He
was specifically mentioned, albeit briefly, in episode four.
Speaker 3 (24:42):
I can remember when when this first happened, even I mean,
just as a person who used to listen to the
show regularly, I was thinking you know, I wonder if
it was David Lane and some of his cohorts.
Speaker 1 (24:57):
This is David Heckenbach. At the time Allen's murder, he
was working for the District Attorney's office in Denver.
Speaker 3 (25:04):
Everybody wanted answers and so but I honestly, all I
can tell you is that I personally remember that they
had very heated exchanges. I couldn't tell you any of
the specific words. It was forty over forty years ago,
but David Lane's name was known to me only as
(25:29):
a listener to the ilan Berg Show on the radio.
Speaker 13 (25:33):
It was David Lane.
Speaker 7 (25:34):
I think who who was from Colorado? Who was the
one that was the most upset? And I think it
was the interview with Colonel Jack Moore that led to
him being upset.
Speaker 9 (25:45):
I've been on programs like this many many times before,
and I've run into tomos like you that interrupted and
tried about No.
Speaker 10 (25:52):
Jack, you have barely been interrupted all bar Jack, So
don't give me that don't give me that guard. But
you haven't been interrupted at all.
Speaker 13 (25:58):
Man.
Speaker 6 (25:59):
Let me give ahead.
Speaker 3 (26:00):
Jack.
Speaker 1 (26:01):
This is the infamous on air exchange alan Berg had
with Colonel Jack Moore and Reverend Pete Peters in early
nineteen eighty four, the fiery argument that ended abruptly and
was so integral to the murder investigation that KOA reporter
Lori Cantillo actually tracked down Peters in order to get
a recording of the interview.
Speaker 7 (26:21):
The FBI is.
Speaker 15 (26:22):
Taking a hard look at a talk show Berg did
the night of February thirteenth, nineteen eighty four. Burg arranged
to have as his guest the Reverend Pete Peters and
Gordon Jack Moore of the Christian Patriots Defense League. Peters
had arranged for More to speak at his Laporte Church
of Christ a few days earlier in a talk that
made headlines because of Moore's views that Jews are conspiring
to take over the world through communism, and that's how
(26:43):
Berg and Moore opened the show.
Speaker 7 (26:45):
So they put him on their enemies list for that.
It seemed like a pretty minor thing to kill somebody for.
But anyway, I didn't really know Alan Berg or what
he was like on the radio, why these guys fixated
on him, but they did. They also were wanting to
(27:06):
kill this guy, Morris des who was suing the klu
Klux Klan and probably would have done that if he
lived a little closer to them. So it was really
kind of an irrational thing that I could see that
led them to murder alan Berg, and I just felt
very badly for him and his family for having been
(27:30):
killed for just expressing his views.
Speaker 1 (27:33):
As it turns out, alan Berg wasn't the only person
who died at the hands of the Order.
Speaker 14 (27:39):
Bob Matthews was with his group was responsible for the
assassination of Alen Burgh, the assassination of another individual that
they feared might be co reading with me an invision
(28:01):
by name of Walter West.
Speaker 7 (28:03):
And they came to suspect that this one guy, Walter West,
was talking too much, not to law enforcement, but just
blabbing in the community. I think one of the members
of the Order knew his wife, and the wife told
him things that the member of the Order thought that
she should never have been told.
Speaker 14 (28:24):
Walter West also had a knowledge as to their counterfeiting
activities because he was a member of the Area Nations
and that's where the counterfeiting press was located when they
did their first counterfeiting. Ultimately, they became more professional and
they had a professional counterfeitter that produced forged identifications and
(28:47):
forged US currency in a very very professional manner. But
initially Walter West had that and had that information, and
they did assassinate Alter.
Speaker 7 (29:01):
So they lured him out into the woods and then
Richard Kemp struck him with a hammer on the head,
and ultimately they killed him in the woods and buried him.
Speaker 14 (29:13):
You might say the investigation took a very knowledgeable turn.
Speaker 11 (29:24):
Through the use of informants and.
Speaker 1 (29:27):
With members of the Order starting to speak more freely
about their crimes, finding and interviewing these snitches got easier
once investigators knew where to look.
Speaker 14 (29:37):
Some information regarding inform my coverage, of course, I won't
address I just I won't say how many or where
they were located, more capacity they worked.
Speaker 11 (29:53):
I won't address that now or at any time. Can say,
based upon public information.
Speaker 14 (30:05):
That it came forth subsequently in the course of criminal trials, that.
Speaker 11 (30:13):
There was at an individual.
Speaker 14 (30:17):
By the name of Tom Martinez, and Martinez belonged to
an organization known as the National Alliance. He was living
in Pennsylvania and became known to.
Speaker 11 (30:35):
The leader of the Order, Robert Matthews, and was very
much life by Robert.
Speaker 14 (30:47):
Matthews, and was invited into the organization of the Order
and was provided with counterfeit money, which, in the course
of marpton Is passing his counterfeit money, he was caught
(31:10):
and arrested by the Secret Service, and.
Speaker 11 (31:16):
While being interviewed by the.
Speaker 14 (31:19):
Secret Service agent, it became obvious to them.
Speaker 16 (31:26):
That he was affiliated with some organization that he feared
more than.
Speaker 14 (31:37):
Being convicted of the crime of passing consh of money.
Speaker 1 (31:42):
David Heckenbach was sent to talk with Martinez.
Speaker 3 (31:46):
Part of my job was also to go interview some
of the I call them snitches, informants, people who raided,
who were not directly involved in the shooting, who were
not there when the trigger was pulled, but who were
(32:08):
members of the Order, who knew about it and who
were being prosecuted, either for counterfeiting or for robbery of
an armored car, had traded there some information for some
(32:33):
considerations in their sentences, and I went up and I
spoke to those individuals as well up in the federal
pen up in Hinckley. Hinckley is a formidable facility, not
a place I would want to be or anybody else
I would imagine. And one of the things, several things
(32:57):
stand out. One is that the the mosquitoes were the
size of starlings. I mean they were huge. And the
biggest claim to fame that Hinckley, Minnesota has is the
Great Hinckley Fire, which is depicted on a mural in
the one and only restaurant in the middle of town.
(33:20):
And this fellow that we interviewed was he tried to
actually be a good host, if that makes sense. He
had access to some tasters choice instant coffee, and to him,
that was offering the best that he could offer us.
(33:44):
It would be like going to somebody else's mansion and
being offered caviaar For a prisoner in Hinckley. The Hinckley
Facility to offer us some of his instant coffee was
apparently a pretty big deal for this guy at the
In the end, he was a snitch. He had been
charged with counterfeiting. They had him dead to rights, and
(34:07):
he flipped on his fellow Order members in exchange for
some sentenced concessions on his counterfeiting charge. He was not
a good guy.
Speaker 1 (34:24):
By this point. Members of the Order, and especially their
leader Robert Matthews, were on the run.
Speaker 7 (34:30):
The FBI was very anxious to find out where he
was and where some of these guys were and to
arrest them because it seemed like they were very dangerous
at one point and desperate as they were on the run,
and particularly to find Robert Matthews became the highest priority
for the FBI in the country, and so we made
(34:52):
an agreement with one of the lesser involved people in
the order named Bill Soderquist, who was from Salinas, California,
and I was integally involved in that because we decided
to subpoena Soderquist to the federal grand jury in San Francisco.
Bill Soderquist was young, He was soft spoken, kind of blonde,
(35:17):
stocky guy. He was scared, I think, but really he
didn't show any signs of being a racist or any
other views of anti Semitic or anything like that. He
looked like a recent high school graduate who was kind
of a nerd, but very soft spoken and not a
(35:40):
very assertive period did not appear to be a very
strong individual. I think the FBI was doing a lot
of surveillance. I think through phone records they identified him
as one of the members of the group, and they
started surveilling his house, in his places where he might
fruquent and also Richard Kemp, who is his friend, who
is also from Sinis.
Speaker 13 (36:01):
We didn't have any charge at the time.
Speaker 7 (36:03):
We just subpoened him to come as a witness before
the Grain jury. But had he refused to testify or lied,
we probably would have charged him with conspiracy of the
armored car robbery, at least at that stage, because we
had information that he was one of the people who
participated in that.
Speaker 13 (36:20):
If you're ready to tell us.
Speaker 7 (36:21):
Everything, including where Bob Matthews can be found, will give
you immunity and you won't be prosecuted for any of
this as long as you testify truthfully.
Speaker 13 (36:31):
And he and his lawyers.
Speaker 7 (36:32):
Were discussing privately, you know, for a while, himming and hawing,
and finally I told him, you got fifteen minutes to
decide this. You know, be able to take this. In
fifteen minutes, you're going to get prosecuted yourself. And they
decided to do it. And so the FBI agens debriefed
him for hours and hours, and that information he provided
(36:53):
them led to them knowing that Robert Matthews was on
would be Island.
Speaker 1 (36:58):
With the Order in its configuration now identified, and some
members of the organization flipped his informants. The Allenberg murder
investigation was swiftly approaching its natural conclusion, but things would
take a startling turn as authorities closed in on this
white supremacist militia, culminating in a shocking exchange with Robert
(37:19):
Matthews at Whitby Island and an excruciating decision by the
Denver District Attorney's office. All that on the next episode
of live Wire, the Loud Life and Shocking Murder of
Alan Burgh. Live Wire is a production of iHeart Podcasts
and Modulator Media. For more podcasts from iHeart Podcasts, visit
(37:42):
the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
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