June 4, 2025 • 36 mins
This week, Diosa and Mala dive deep into the explosive federal case, United States vs. Combs. Music mogul Sean "Diddy" Combs faces five serious criminal counts and the details have captured the attention of many both online and offline. But beyond the headlines and viral TikTok accounts lies decades of violence, exploitation, and abuse. Diosa and Mala unpack the term "freak off," now part of the public lexicon thanks to court filings, but simply put--are abusive sessions masked as "play." What happens when private trauma becomes public spectacle? Diosa and Mala bring the focus back to the survivors and the systems that enabled their abuse.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
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Speaker 1 (00:38):
Today, June fourth is the final day to register for
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Lo Morees, I'm Viosa.
Speaker 2 (00:55):
And I'm Mala. And today we're talking about the United
States versus CO. As you guys know, over the years,
as there have been celebrity cases, whether that be dep heard,
Megan Thee Stallion and Tory Lanez, we have talked about
the case, the issue, and the chatter surrounding it, especially
when we're thinking about issues regarding feminism violence against women
(01:20):
that have been popping up in these cases in particular.
Speaker 1 (01:22):
And this is obviously such a momentous case because of
who P Diddy is in the culture. He has permeated
culture for decades now, beyond music, fashion, reality TV. He
even had an alcohol brand, so he has really had
his hands in a lot of things. And we're going
(01:43):
to be talking about all of that today.
Speaker 2 (01:45):
And we've seen a lot of coverage of us versus
Combs all over TikTok, especially as it relates to testimony
by Cassie Ventura, and we're going to talk about Cassie.
We're going to talk about all that TikTok and internet chatter.
But to begin just to sort of ground us in
the case in what's going on. This is a federal
(02:07):
sex trafficking and racketeering case from NBC News. Combs faces
five criminal counts, one count of racketeering conspiracy, which carries
a maximum sentence of life in prison, two counts of
sex trafficking by force, fraud, or coercion, which carries a
maximum sentence of life in prison and a mandatory minimum
sentence of fifteen years in prison, and two counts of
(02:27):
transportation to engage in prostitution, which carries a maximum sentence
of ten years in prison. So important to note this
is a federal case. This is the federal government filing
these charges against one Sean P. Diddy Combs.
Speaker 1 (02:42):
Yeah, and I mean and to get to a federal case,
I mean that means it was years of him being
investigated secretly until there was enough evidence against him. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (02:53):
And the Feds have a very very very very very
high conviction rate. I think that they really wait until
they have everything they could possibly need to file charges
against somebody like Shaan Comms. And this is a case
that was taking place all over the country, across state
lines and also internationally. So for those who maybe have
been wondering, like why is the case laid out the
(03:16):
way it is, those are some of the reasons.
Speaker 1 (03:19):
Right, I think. Aside from p Ditty being a media mogul,
a music mogul, if you will, is the relationship, the
very public relationship he had with Cassie Ventura, who was
a favorite of ours growing up. Right. We know Cassie
Ventura as the musician, as the artist, as the singer,
and she was in a long term relationship with p
(03:39):
Diddy and was one of the first people to testify
against him in court, in addition to a previous settlement
that she had with him.
Speaker 2 (03:49):
And So for those tuning in right, maybe you were
fans of Cassie, maybe you're just like finding out about
who she is now because Cassie hasn't made music in
a really, really, really long time. You know her as
a recording artist, as a pop star, but her hit
single that I think people might label her as a
one hit wonder, Me and You, which came out in
(04:10):
two thousand and six, a very long time ago. It's
almost it's over twenty years at this point.
Speaker 1 (04:15):
Do you remember when ringback tones were a thing where
you would call someone and you could hear a song playing. Yes,
my ring back tone was Me and You by Cassie.
Speaker 2 (04:24):
She was That's almost very popular. The girlies were living
for Me and You and she the video was very simple.
It's her like in a dance studio by herself, you know,
doing a little light choreography. Gorgeous girl. And at some point,
not too long after she released Me and You, she
is spending a lot of time with Ditty and eventually
(04:49):
it's established that they're in some sort of a relationship.
And they're photographed together all the time. They're at award shows,
they're on red carpets, they're at clubs and premieres. She's
deafinitely on his arm. But no music is coming out, right,
and the year's pass and the year's pass, and of
course he's this music mogul. He has at some point
established himself as being this like eye for talent, this producer.
(05:14):
He has like making the band these reality TV like
music competition shows. He is like front running Danity Kane,
which was a popular girl group. So he has the
means to launch stars and to make music happen for
aspiring artists. But Cassie, who's dating him for all these years,
(05:35):
there's no music. And I think, as the public, we
were all at one point or another just like, well,
I guess, well, I guess she just isn't making music anymore.
Speaker 1 (05:45):
Right, there was something more insidious going on in the relationship.
And it's very important to note that Cassie was very
young when they first entered into their relationship, So we're
talking like eighteen nineteen years old and spent almost a
decade with him, right, And so to consider like maybe
the manipulation that was going on, the type of grooming
that was going on is also really important to contextualize
(06:08):
their type of relationship.
Speaker 2 (06:09):
Yeah, I don't think that I've really heard that term
grooming with regards to Cassie and Ditty over the course
of this case. I think people are recognizing the trafficking
side of things. I think people are recognizing the abuse
and the assault of it, all the force and the coercion.
But I think the point you make is really important
that she was a teenager, she was nineteen, and he
(06:30):
was definitely like in his thirties when they started dating, right,
And one of the other witnesses in this federal case
testified that he at some point had heard Ditty say
with regards to Cassie, she's young, she's multiple like, she's perfect.
And Cassie herself, in her testimony over the course of
(06:52):
this trial, testified to the fact that when she first
started spending time with Ditty like he taught her about
oral sex and about matters of sex and sexuality. I
think that she was rather young and inexperienced, and so
when we hear about the interpersonal side of things, how
young she was. The sexual relationship that was beginning to form.
(07:13):
But then also that she's from Connecticut and she was
probably out here in LA by herself, and that she
entered into a record deal with him in bad Way Records,
so he had a lot of control over her professional live,
her music career, and then eventually her personal life.
Speaker 1 (07:31):
Yeah, and I think that is really important to note
because there is that power and control and that dynamic
that exists within that relationship that may not exist in
every type of relationship, right, And so that I think
is really important to consider when we're thinking about Cassie
and her lived experience as his partner and as a person.
Speaker 2 (07:51):
Absolutely, and as others have pointed out, Sean Combs had
his family like in his home with him, Kim Porter,
the mother of some of his kids, those children, but
Cassie wasn't like living in the home. He was like
paying for Cassie to live in a one bedroom apartment
somewhere in LA And Cassie testified in court that all
(08:14):
the year she was with him, like a decade, basically
that she never met the family, She wasn't around the family,
She was sort of kept separate from the family. So
there was also a dynamic there of him sort of
like having her on hold. And she testified also that
there were times where like he would just show up
(08:35):
at her place and let himself in, like it wasn't
really her place, that she wasn't really allowed to keep
him out of it, and so he just had all
this access to her. And it sounds like, per her testimony,
she spent a lot of time in the studio recording
music that just never ever ever got released, like he
was giving her busy work, like keeping her busy, but
(08:57):
sort of just like at his dispose.
Speaker 1 (09:01):
Yeah, that's intense. Yes, that is so intense. And this
is a case that I have lightly been following, Like
I've listened to other coverage. I've read other articles, but
I haven't actually I haven't listened to the actual testimonies.
Speaker 2 (09:14):
It's a lot, it's a lot. And so this is
also something that has been interesting to witness the way
that the coverage has unfolded a over broadcast television. There
are some news stations like ABC News They've had near
constant coverage of the Ditty trial. There's a couple of
podcasts out there covering the Ditty trial from different angles.
(09:36):
And then you have like journalists who are covering the case,
following the case and reporting back on TikTok on the
personal accounts like Tore. Tore famously did one of those
explosive interviews with R. Kelly back in the day. He's
still reporting, but Tore is reporting and commenting on his
(09:56):
own personal TikTok account. Then you have TikTok in influencers
like Stephanie Sue and others who are like somehow in
the courtroom.
Speaker 1 (10:06):
Yeah, yeah, they have like a press badge, like a
journalist's badge.
Speaker 2 (10:10):
Yes, And so they're going back and reporting what they're
witnessing and observing, like Stephanie Sue on her podcast Rotten
Mango and then also on TikTok. And then there are
TikTok influencers who are giving like constant updates on the
trial on TikTok. But it's unclear where they're getting their
information from. If they're in the courtroom, if they know
someone in the courtroom, if they're reading transcripts every day,
(10:32):
and it's a a lot of testimony, it's like a
lot to comb through. It makes me wonder like people
who are not career journalists, who are not like outright
getting paid to do journalism work, Like is their coverage
getting them? Like are they gaining a lot of engagement?
And like TikTok dollars?
Speaker 1 (10:53):
I would assume it's the coverage, right. I can imagine
that's an incentive for some of these folks on TikTok
to kind of go in and do that coverage for
their own channels or platforms.
Speaker 2 (11:03):
Yeah, that leads into like our kind of big picture
conversation for today, is these types of court cases as
journalism or as entertainment I should say m hm, so
that if we're not getting it through like the more
traditional news channels, those updates by like you know, TV
anchors on Channel four.
Speaker 1 (11:24):
You know, there is a type of training that goes
into being a court reporter and like reporting on a case,
especially of this nature where maybe people are not trauma
informed and are also reporting what they're hearing or what
they're seeing via other social media platforms or news outlets
as well, and kind of regurgitating the information that they're seeing.
(11:46):
And I when I hear other people talk about it,
like just in general, right, not necessarily friends or family,
but just the chatter right of being online, is that
this case in some ways is very sensationalized because of
who it is.
Speaker 2 (12:01):
Yeah, and also like.
Speaker 1 (12:03):
The term we were talking about this yesterday, like the
term freakof right, and how that's kind of become a
part of our lexicon when it's actually describing something horrific
and some type of exploitation, depending on who you were
in that room. And so I think that that is
also something really important, where the freak off is kind
(12:24):
of become in some way like selecious and in some
ways a joke depending on who's using it and how
they're saying it, but it's actually a representation of something horrific,
depending again, like who you were in that room. Don't
go anywhere, locomotives. We'll be right back.
Speaker 2 (12:44):
And we're back with more of our episode. Notably, Sean
Combs is not being charged with like a domestic violence charge.
This is not a matter of Cassie going to the
local police department and filing a report because he abused
her in like a domestic violence context. This is the
federal government filing these sex trafficking charges against him, and
(13:07):
she's brought in as a key witness to the crime
of sex trafficking right as a victim of the crime,
she also was a witness to the crime, and that's
the role that she's playing on the stand. So every
time she's testifying about her experiences and the freak offs,
she's specifically testifying as to every time she was trafficked.
(13:30):
So every freak off is an instance of trafficking, of assault,
of abuse, of coercion, and everything else that was being
done to her. And it also raises the question, like
all the play by plays, all the specifics about the
baby oil and the male escorts that were being hired,
and the wigs that she had to wear, and like
(13:51):
the candle, like all these specifics about the way that
these trafficking situations were set up, why does the public
need to know? Oh? Right, do we need to know?
What difference does it make if we know the specifics
of how she was trafficked in a federal case like this,
you know, why does that information need to be communicated?
Speaker 1 (14:14):
Yeah, that's a good point, because there are certain things
that are specifically left out for the public to not know,
and this is one of those things where it feels
like everything is kind of being shared. Yeah, you know,
and with each testimonial it seems like it's getting worse
and worse what's being shared, and it's just available for
all of us, Which goes back to the original thesis, right,
(14:36):
that like this is part of entertainment for some people.
Speaker 2 (14:40):
Yes, there's like some very it's like true crime entertainment value. Yes,
where it's horrifying. I can't look away. A woman is
being horrifically abused, can't look away. We're gonna like comb
over every detail of how it happened. This comes up
every time there's a public trial with a famous woman
at the center who has been abused or manipulated in
(15:03):
some way. You know, I don't know what the solution
is because there's this other piece of like there's the
freedom of the press, of course, and freedom of speech,
and so it's also not a matter of oh, influencers
should not be spreading updates. It's more like, why are
these specific updates so drive so much traffic?
Speaker 1 (15:24):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (15:24):
You know, and I feel like the folks reporting, No,
these are the details that people are going to tune
in for.
Speaker 1 (15:30):
Yeah, it's part of that sensationalizing. We're gonna hold onto
these details that we think are going to get people
like riled up or going in some way.
Speaker 2 (15:40):
Yeah, and with every new witness it also is just
so it like reveals how many people were around and
were witnessing or were even involved, because he was not
pulling all this stuff off by himself, right, Like this
is a very elaborate scheme of his that involves a
(16:02):
lot of people in a lot of different locations for
many many years. So he had assistants and staff, and
there were like hotel staff everywhere they went, you know,
there was security guards, there were like other people he
partied with, other people he victimized. Just the sheer number
of people who can speak to what they witnessed and
(16:22):
how much of it is like really wild.
Speaker 1 (16:25):
That's partly why this case is so big for the public. Right.
But in addition, like why the federal government is trying
Shawn Combs because of the magnitude and the scope of
people involved.
Speaker 2 (16:36):
Absolutely and like it it goes back to also like
there have been over the years other times where we've
heard about Seawan Combs acting out violently towards people, Like
when his son was playing football at UCLA and Shawn
Combs throw a kettlebell at the UCLA football coach because
he was angry. He had some dispute with him over
(16:57):
his son and how his son was being played. So
he's somebody who I think everybody sort of knew for years.
But he has a temper that he has violent outbursts
that like his parties get out of control. Like it
seemed like there were a lot of people who were
in the know and in on his secrets that weren't
(17:18):
so secret.
Speaker 1 (17:19):
Right I mean, And I think notably one of those
people was Aubry Oda from Danny Kane, and she has
been talking about Sean colmbs P ditty for twenty years.
Was like sounding the alarm when she was with Danny
Kane and was removed from the group that she was in,
and she was part of making of the band as well.
And so she in an interview with people said she
(17:42):
does not feel vindicated because of course this is horrible,
like what the victim's experience and how they were exploited.
But there is like, Okay, people are finally listening to
something I've been saying for twenty years.
Speaker 2 (17:55):
Yeah, it's like there's no winning here. No, there's there's
no way that anybody can feel like victorious, even the
people who are now coming forward and testifying a because
they've probably been subpoenad, like they have to write.
Speaker 1 (18:10):
And that's a good thing to note too, is that
Cassie Ventura was subpoenad.
Speaker 2 (18:14):
Yes, they're not like volunteering to go testify. You don't
testify in a federal case like this unless the Feds
knock on your door right until you went to show up,
you know.
Speaker 1 (18:24):
And that was something that I saw online too, And
this is not the dominant narrative that I've seen, but
I have seen a couple of these people kind of
posing this question, like if you're wondering why Cassie is
speaking out now even though she received a settlement, kind
of like that, oh, that's not enough for you type
of sentiment, right, And the answer back to that is like, well,
she's being subpoenad because this is a federal case. This
(18:45):
is not a dB case. This is not Cassie versus
p Diddy. No, this is a federal case. She's a subpoenad.
Speaker 2 (18:51):
It's the United States, right, it's all of us versus
shawan Combe.
Speaker 1 (18:55):
When you put it that way, it's the people. It
is the people.
Speaker 2 (18:58):
It's the people versus shawan Combe. These were crimes against
not just one person, but a slew a whole group
of people, And I don't think that we really know
all of the victims, no wrapped up in all of this.
We know some of the big names. We know Cassie.
There's a Mia now like a former personal assistant who
(19:22):
has been testifying under a different name Mia, who also
has testified to like horrible working conditions of violent outbursts
that she endured from Combs, assaults that she endured from Combs.
So I think that this is just the tip of
the iceberg in a lot of ways.
Speaker 1 (19:38):
Don't go anywhere, lokamotives.
Speaker 2 (19:40):
We'll be right back, and we're back with more of
our episode.
Speaker 1 (19:47):
Prior to the trial, there was a journalist who also
went on record and talked about how when she was
working at Vibe and was profiling Sean Combs, like how
violent he was and how her computer was stolen because
he didn't want the profile she was writing to be
published and so like it goes back yeah, decades.
Speaker 2 (20:07):
Yeah, he has retaliated against a lot of people and
people have been afraid of him. Kid Cutty testified talked
about his relationship with Cassie and how Shawn Combs didn't
like it when he found out and Kid Cutty suspects
that Shawn Combs broke into his house, opened up a
bunch of Christmas presents, locked his dog in a room,
and then later tried to set his car on fire
(20:29):
with a Molotov cocktail. Like, people have been really targeted
by this person if they've done things that he doesn't like,
which explains a lot of why there was such a
bystander effect with his team, with his assistance in his
security guards and people who testified to like witnessing him
physically assault Cassie and other people, but they never said anything,
(20:51):
or at least didn't say anything to Puff Daddy, like
to Shawn Combs, right because they were afraid. They were
afraid that they would get home or the people that
they loved would get harmed. And this is how this
cycle of abuse and violence continues, right, Especially a person
in a position of power who pays everybody's salary, you know,
who like has control over their their careers and they're
(21:13):
under contract with him, and he maybe showers them with
gifts and with perks and with niceties and things that
make it so cool to work with him or to
date him, and then the violent outburst happens, and it
is that cycle, that cycle, and then there's threats and coercion. Well,
if you leave, you're never gonna you're never gonna work
in this town again. If you leave, I'm gonna release
all of these tapes that I took in our freak
(21:34):
offs or or at this party or whatever I made
you do. And then the night and then the gifts
come back, and you know, you're honeymooning again, and Okay,
maybe it's better now, and he feels sorry, but it
just continues on and on and on. So I'm sure
Cassie wasn't the only one caught in that cycle with him.
I'm sure even staff were caught in that cycle with him.
Speaker 1 (21:53):
Yeah. Absolutely, And I think that you bring up the
good point of like the power and control and the
intimidation and the base under effect, because there were also
instances during Cassie's statement that she there were times where
she did consent to these quote freak offs, right, And
I think that that's an important thing to note that
(22:13):
consent can be withdrawn at any time. You know, just
because you agreed to something one day does not mean
you agree the next day or even that same night.
That same day, and so that is something I feel
like nobody's the perfect victim does not exist, right, and
so to I think maybe question the validity of her
experience based on maybe consenting one day and not consenting
(22:35):
another is not appropriate, right.
Speaker 2 (22:37):
And it's also we have to complicate our understanding of
consent because if it's consent only because you think something
bad is going to happen, then that is a type
of coercive environment, absolutely right, And I think one of
the nuances And I'm glad that you brought up, you know,
the idea of consent in this situation, because the defense,
(22:58):
because there's so much evidence photo video and witness evidence,
video evidence of his violence towards her and his coercion
and his retaliation. So the defense for Shan Combs, all
they can really do is establish that she consented to
everything and she wanted to participate in everything. So what
they're doing is looking at some of the text messages
(23:19):
that have been entered into discovery and saying in these instances,
Cassie wrote, I'm always down for freak offs. I love
our freak COFs. I love our fos when we both
want them, and there have been I guess over the years,
moments where she wrote things like that. But then there's
also entered into discovery emails that she wrote right basically
(23:41):
pleading for him, like to love her. And she wrote
emails to her mother, you know, like basically asking for help.
And so it's not like you're saying it's not enough
to say yes one time, especially if there's all these
other things going on. Absolutely, you know, like did she
really have a choice to say yes or no in
(24:02):
her specific circumstance, I.
Speaker 1 (24:04):
Mean, and even thinking about like your own personal life,
like there are instances where we have or I have
said yes when I haven't wanted to, but I know
that this is important to my partners, so I'm gonna
say yes, you know. And so these are like the
the small moments that happen in relationships where you know,
(24:25):
it's really challenged, like you said, really complicating what consent means.
Those that power control dynamic may not be involved in
your relationship, but imagine if they are. And then the
reasons that you're saying yes when you want to say no.
Speaker 2 (24:38):
Yeah, And per Cassie's testimony, the freak off started when
she was very young. They started dating at nineteen by
twenty one, twenty two. He has her engaging in these
freak Offs and the way that Cassie talks about them,
which is why I think they are qualifying as a
type of trafficking. She talks about them like they were
a job, Like at some point she was full time
(25:00):
with the freak Offs, like multiple times a week every week.
They're like benders. They're lasting two, three, four days, so
she's spending her week engaging in the freak Off and
then recovering from the freak Off. She's testifying to having
like non stop UTIs basically for almost ten years, that
like even the medication stopped working for her because it
was so chronic. And she's testifying to like basically having
(25:25):
a roster of male escorts that they were calling so
often she like knew them by name right, And she
describes the freak Offs being like almost like plays that
Diddy was directing, and there's acts and there's scenes and
their sessions, and she talks about it like a straight
up job, and that she was basically a sex worker
(25:45):
for him after a while. And if you think about
when it started, how she was so young and then
it kept going for all of her twenties. Basically, you know,
there's no way that like that was her dream for
herself and that's what she wanted for herself absolutely, you know.
But she's under this ten album contract with Ditty and
she wants to make her music. And the place that
(26:10):
she lives is also like he's paying for it. You know,
her family is across the country. It seemed like she
was genuinely afraid to say no.
Speaker 1 (26:18):
Yeah. I mean that really hits all the points of
the power and control, right, the intimidation, the isolation, the
economic abuse, all of it.
Speaker 2 (26:30):
I think something to note too is there's different types
of like human traffickers and pimps. Like I think people
think of trafficking and they maybe think, I don't know,
like narcos or like women who are like working on
the street, right, But there's a lot of different ways
that women become trafficked. And so a few years ago
I participated in this like human trafficking training by this
(26:53):
anti trafficking organization called the Polaris Project, and they did
a big study about second trafficking between Mexico and the
United States. And something that I learned in that sex
trafficking training is that one of the types of traffickers
is called like a boyfriend trafficker, and the way that
you get involved with the boyfriend trafficker is through like
(27:16):
dating and love and romance, and they romance you and
it's the honeymoon phase and their person and they are
your boyfriend and you are dating and it is romantic.
Eventually that boyfriend says, well, if you love me, then
you'll do this for me. You know, you'll take this
package for me and you'll like transport it through the airport,
or you're going to do this little task for me,
(27:38):
or you're going to sleep with this person for money,
and it escalates until before you know it, you're in
a full on trafficking situation. And it sounds like this
is what happened with Cassie because she talks about being
in love with him and loving him and them being
like an item. So it sounds like he like boyfriended her,
exploited her into sexual exploitation.
Speaker 1 (28:01):
Yeah, that's a lot.
Speaker 2 (28:04):
It is a lot. It's fucked up, and our hearts
go out to Cassie, who is very pregnant also by
the way, while she's testifying.
Speaker 1 (28:12):
With her third child with her third child.
Speaker 2 (28:15):
By her husband, Alex Fine, formerly personal trainer to both
her and Shawn Combs.
Speaker 1 (28:21):
Oh, I don't think I knew that Shawn.
Speaker 2 (28:22):
Combs hired Alex Fine to train them and is shortly thereafter,
you know, Cassie and Alex Fine start to develop feelings
for one another. She ends her thing with Diddy somehow,
she like is able to get out of it. Yeah,
not unscathed. Right, there were assaults and abuse and all
(28:43):
kinds of stalking going on. But now she's married and
she has her third baby on the way with her husband.
This has also been interesting because as she's been testifying,
her husband has been in the courtroom. Yes, so of course,
what's the commentary about her.
Speaker 1 (28:57):
Husband she has to listen to, Well, what she quote did,
what she did, not what she was put through, not
how she was exploited, but her poor husband.
Speaker 2 (29:07):
Her poor husband, and what do we think about that?
Because it's like it's like this is so classic.
Speaker 1 (29:12):
Oh yeah, right, I mean one patriarchy, one oh one
rape culture, Like you know, it's it's horrible, and but
it's also not surprising, right to hear that type of
commentary like, oh, her, it's still centering the man of
the poor husband, not poor Cassie, and she has to relive,
be re traumatized and recount these details of a decade.
(29:36):
But her poor husband, let's deflect, Yeah, and he has
to hear this.
Speaker 2 (29:42):
Yeah. And so depending on who you are, then it's
because there are still Ditty supporters for sure. Not everybody
is like is not not everybody is denouncing him and
his actions, I mean, and.
Speaker 1 (29:55):
That is is I think the history of any male
celeb or someone of his caliber, right, even R Kelly
like still has supporters. Oh yeah, right, Bill Cosby still
has supporters. Notably, these are three black men, right, and
so the racial dynamic is obviously very important when talking
about this Johnny Depp, Johnny Depp has a lot of supporters,
(30:18):
Kit Scott supporters, and poor amberhard was villainized so much.
We also have an episode on that because that case,
I feel to me that was one of the first
examples of like a TikTok case. Yes, was Amber heard
versus Johnny Depp? Yeah, which it wasn't even versus them.
It was a libel case, right, but it was positioned
on social media as like Amber versus Johnny.
Speaker 2 (30:40):
It was positioned that way. And in both of these
cases it's so easy for the for a viewer who
hasn't like looked into it because of the rape culture,
because of the misogyny. Immediately, it's oh, Amber and Cassie
like trying to destroy these men and bring them down,
and why are they speaking up now? Johnny Depp filed
a lawsuit against Amber heard Relibel because of an essay
(31:03):
that she wrote that did not name him no, and
then with this one it's the federal government bringing them
to court. But in both instances, it's like this woman
at the center, who has been horribly brutalized, is like
at fault for something always, always.
Speaker 1 (31:20):
Always, I mean, And it goes to show that like
there hasn't been a reckoning, a me too reckoning for
all communities or subsets of the culture. Right. We saw
it with the film industry in some capacity. We haven't
necessarily seen it with hip hop and arts hip hop
and music.
Speaker 2 (31:37):
In the music industry, right, And so.
Speaker 1 (31:39):
It's that that I don't know if it's a ripple effect,
but it's like, not everyone has had their like their
me too reckoning, Not each industry has had it yet.
And in some ways this is a type of reckoning
because of how big Shawn Combs is and how influential
he's been in the culture for decades. But this is
(32:00):
like just the tip of the iceberg, and it's gonna
take like other people in the industry to actually like
not just be the bystanders and be like active in
calling this out exactly before it gets to this point
exactly exactly.
Speaker 2 (32:16):
And you know this hunger to like make it by
any means necessary, to like get on and to be successful.
I also think that that insane hunger to like get
ahead in the industry drives so much of this this
issue because whether we're talking about the staff right that
(32:41):
maybe is like experiencing some like bystander effect and not
acting because of all the reasons we've talked about, Like
they're nervous, they have their own careers, they fear retaliation,
they want to be successful in what they're doing, that
maybe this has been a big break for them, right.
And then there's the talent at the center of it,
and like young talent, impressionable talent you know, from all
(33:05):
over the place, from different places coming out here in
these instances to la like chasing a dream and then yeah,
you think you got your big break, this huge mogul
has taken a liking to you, but now you're like
in their clutches and p did he also having been
linked to some dubious like behavior with Usher, a young
(33:29):
Usher right when Usher was like sent to like Puffy's
flavor camp, to like live with puff Daddy when Usher
was a child. And also Justin Bieber also being linked
to like nefarious shit with puff Daddy when he was
a child.
Speaker 1 (33:45):
Yeah, it really does put going back to these like
crashouts in our previous episode. It really does put maybe
a Justin Bieber into a different context in light you know,
he was a child star and what type of exploitation
did he experience in the industry.
Speaker 2 (34:01):
Yeah, And it's one thing for adults even to be
in these like wild ditty parties, but I feel like
these kids were there too, you know. And so this
is like this person has caused like multi generational harm
when we think about the age range of these different
people who have been in his who have been in
(34:23):
his reach. So it really is a wild time decades
in the making. Yeah, decades in the making. And it
kind of seems like unfortunately in cases like this, one
victim is like never enough. Yeah, it's almost like there
has to be.
Speaker 1 (34:37):
There's definitely pile up absolutely.
Speaker 2 (34:39):
Before action is taken. Thank you all for listening. This
has been a particularly heavy episode. This case United States
versus Combs is still all over the news and social media,
and I anticipate that it will be for some time,
even after the trial ends. So please give yourself a
break from scrolling, from taking in this information, and if
(35:02):
you need resources, please call the National Domestic Violence Hotline
one eight hundred seven nine nine Safe one eight hundred
seven nine nine Safe and the National Human Trafficking Hotline
which is at one eight eight eight three seven three
seven eight eight eight.
Speaker 1 (35:22):
Thank you for listening to another episode of lok at
Dora Radio. I want to reiterate what Mala said. Please
take care of yourselves, take a scrolling break, check in
with your friends, check in with yourself, with your body, hydrate,
and we will catch you next time.
Speaker 2 (35:37):
Thanks you, Thos.
Speaker 1 (35:38):
Lokata Radio is executive produced by Yosa Fem and Mala Munjos.
Speaker 2 (35:43):
Stephanie Franco is our producer.
Speaker 1 (35:45):
Story editing by Medosa.
Speaker 2 (35:47):
Creative direction by me Mala.
Speaker 1 (35:49):
Look at Dora Radio is a part of iHeartRadio's Michael
Dura podcast Network.
Speaker 2 (35:53):
You can listen to Lokata Radio on the iHeartRadio app
or wherever you get your podcasts.
Speaker 1 (35:58):
Leave us a review and show with your prima or
share with your homegirl.
Speaker 2 (36:02):
And thank you to our local moorees, to our listeners
for tuning in each and every week.
Speaker 1 (36:06):
Besitos
We are launching a podcasting course starting Thursday, June fifth,
and it's five weeks long and we're going to be
giving in real time feedback to anyone that wants to
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even an established one that wants an extra set of
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Speaker 2 (00:19):
We are sort of reviving our podcasting course that we
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and adapting it for digital. So this course is available
on teachable. You can check out our website our Instagram
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Speaker 1 (00:38):
Today, June fourth is the final day to register for
our first ever digital podcasting course, so head to our
instagram at locat our Productions to register already. Ola Hola
Lo Morees, I'm Viosa.
Speaker 2 (00:55):
And I'm Mala. And today we're talking about the United
States versus CO. As you guys know, over the years,
as there have been celebrity cases, whether that be dep heard,
Megan Thee Stallion and Tory Lanez, we have talked about
the case, the issue, and the chatter surrounding it, especially
when we're thinking about issues regarding feminism violence against women
(01:20):
that have been popping up in these cases in particular.
Speaker 1 (01:22):
And this is obviously such a momentous case because of
who P Diddy is in the culture. He has permeated
culture for decades now, beyond music, fashion, reality TV. He
even had an alcohol brand, so he has really had
his hands in a lot of things. And we're going
(01:43):
to be talking about all of that today.
Speaker 2 (01:45):
And we've seen a lot of coverage of us versus
Combs all over TikTok, especially as it relates to testimony
by Cassie Ventura, and we're going to talk about Cassie.
We're going to talk about all that TikTok and internet chatter.
But to begin just to sort of ground us in
the case in what's going on. This is a federal
(02:07):
sex trafficking and racketeering case from NBC News. Combs faces
five criminal counts, one count of racketeering conspiracy, which carries
a maximum sentence of life in prison, two counts of
sex trafficking by force, fraud, or coercion, which carries a
maximum sentence of life in prison and a mandatory minimum
sentence of fifteen years in prison, and two counts of
(02:27):
transportation to engage in prostitution, which carries a maximum sentence
of ten years in prison. So important to note this
is a federal case. This is the federal government filing
these charges against one Sean P. Diddy Combs.
Speaker 1 (02:42):
Yeah, and I mean and to get to a federal case,
I mean that means it was years of him being
investigated secretly until there was enough evidence against him. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (02:53):
And the Feds have a very very very very very
high conviction rate. I think that they really wait until
they have everything they could possibly need to file charges
against somebody like Shaan Comms. And this is a case
that was taking place all over the country, across state
lines and also internationally. So for those who maybe have
been wondering, like why is the case laid out the
(03:16):
way it is, those are some of the reasons.
Speaker 1 (03:19):
Right, I think. Aside from p Ditty being a media mogul,
a music mogul, if you will, is the relationship, the
very public relationship he had with Cassie Ventura, who was
a favorite of ours growing up. Right. We know Cassie
Ventura as the musician, as the artist, as the singer,
and she was in a long term relationship with p
(03:39):
Diddy and was one of the first people to testify
against him in court, in addition to a previous settlement
that she had with him.
Speaker 2 (03:49):
And So for those tuning in right, maybe you were
fans of Cassie, maybe you're just like finding out about
who she is now because Cassie hasn't made music in
a really, really, really long time. You know her as
a recording artist, as a pop star, but her hit
single that I think people might label her as a
one hit wonder, Me and You, which came out in
(04:10):
two thousand and six, a very long time ago. It's
almost it's over twenty years at this point.
Speaker 1 (04:15):
Do you remember when ringback tones were a thing where
you would call someone and you could hear a song playing. Yes,
my ring back tone was Me and You by Cassie.
Speaker 2 (04:24):
She was That's almost very popular. The girlies were living
for Me and You and she the video was very simple.
It's her like in a dance studio by herself, you know,
doing a little light choreography. Gorgeous girl. And at some point,
not too long after she released Me and You, she
is spending a lot of time with Ditty and eventually
(04:49):
it's established that they're in some sort of a relationship.
And they're photographed together all the time. They're at award shows,
they're on red carpets, they're at clubs and premieres. She's
deafinitely on his arm. But no music is coming out, right,
and the year's pass and the year's pass, and of
course he's this music mogul. He has at some point
established himself as being this like eye for talent, this producer.
(05:14):
He has like making the band these reality TV like
music competition shows. He is like front running Danity Kane,
which was a popular girl group. So he has the
means to launch stars and to make music happen for
aspiring artists. But Cassie, who's dating him for all these years,
(05:35):
there's no music. And I think, as the public, we
were all at one point or another just like, well,
I guess, well, I guess she just isn't making music anymore.
Speaker 1 (05:45):
Right, there was something more insidious going on in the relationship.
And it's very important to note that Cassie was very
young when they first entered into their relationship, So we're
talking like eighteen nineteen years old and spent almost a
decade with him, right, And so to consider like maybe
the manipulation that was going on, the type of grooming
that was going on is also really important to contextualize
(06:08):
their type of relationship.
Speaker 2 (06:09):
Yeah, I don't think that I've really heard that term
grooming with regards to Cassie and Ditty over the course
of this case. I think people are recognizing the trafficking
side of things. I think people are recognizing the abuse
and the assault of it, all the force and the coercion.
But I think the point you make is really important
that she was a teenager, she was nineteen, and he
(06:30):
was definitely like in his thirties when they started dating, right,
And one of the other witnesses in this federal case
testified that he at some point had heard Ditty say
with regards to Cassie, she's young, she's multiple like, she's perfect.
And Cassie herself, in her testimony over the course of
(06:52):
this trial, testified to the fact that when she first
started spending time with Ditty like he taught her about
oral sex and about matters of sex and sexuality. I
think that she was rather young and inexperienced, and so
when we hear about the interpersonal side of things, how
young she was. The sexual relationship that was beginning to form.
(07:13):
But then also that she's from Connecticut and she was
probably out here in LA by herself, and that she
entered into a record deal with him in bad Way Records,
so he had a lot of control over her professional live,
her music career, and then eventually her personal life.
Speaker 1 (07:31):
Yeah, and I think that is really important to note
because there is that power and control and that dynamic
that exists within that relationship that may not exist in
every type of relationship, right, And so that I think
is really important to consider when we're thinking about Cassie
and her lived experience as his partner and as a person.
Speaker 2 (07:51):
Absolutely, and as others have pointed out, Sean Combs had
his family like in his home with him, Kim Porter,
the mother of some of his kids, those children, but
Cassie wasn't like living in the home. He was like
paying for Cassie to live in a one bedroom apartment
somewhere in LA And Cassie testified in court that all
(08:14):
the year she was with him, like a decade, basically
that she never met the family, She wasn't around the family,
She was sort of kept separate from the family. So
there was also a dynamic there of him sort of
like having her on hold. And she testified also that
there were times where like he would just show up
(08:35):
at her place and let himself in, like it wasn't
really her place, that she wasn't really allowed to keep
him out of it, and so he just had all
this access to her. And it sounds like, per her testimony,
she spent a lot of time in the studio recording
music that just never ever ever got released, like he
was giving her busy work, like keeping her busy, but
(08:57):
sort of just like at his dispose.
Speaker 1 (09:01):
Yeah, that's intense. Yes, that is so intense. And this
is a case that I have lightly been following, Like
I've listened to other coverage. I've read other articles, but
I haven't actually I haven't listened to the actual testimonies.
Speaker 2 (09:14):
It's a lot, it's a lot. And so this is
also something that has been interesting to witness the way
that the coverage has unfolded a over broadcast television. There
are some news stations like ABC News They've had near
constant coverage of the Ditty trial. There's a couple of
podcasts out there covering the Ditty trial from different angles.
(09:36):
And then you have like journalists who are covering the case,
following the case and reporting back on TikTok on the
personal accounts like Tore. Tore famously did one of those
explosive interviews with R. Kelly back in the day. He's
still reporting, but Tore is reporting and commenting on his
(09:56):
own personal TikTok account. Then you have TikTok in influencers
like Stephanie Sue and others who are like somehow in
the courtroom.
Speaker 1 (10:06):
Yeah, yeah, they have like a press badge, like a
journalist's badge.
Speaker 2 (10:10):
Yes, And so they're going back and reporting what they're
witnessing and observing, like Stephanie Sue on her podcast Rotten
Mango and then also on TikTok. And then there are
TikTok influencers who are giving like constant updates on the
trial on TikTok. But it's unclear where they're getting their
information from. If they're in the courtroom, if they know
someone in the courtroom, if they're reading transcripts every day,
(10:32):
and it's a a lot of testimony, it's like a
lot to comb through. It makes me wonder like people
who are not career journalists, who are not like outright
getting paid to do journalism work, Like is their coverage
getting them? Like are they gaining a lot of engagement?
And like TikTok dollars?
Speaker 1 (10:53):
I would assume it's the coverage, right. I can imagine
that's an incentive for some of these folks on TikTok
to kind of go in and do that coverage for
their own channels or platforms.
Speaker 2 (11:03):
Yeah, that leads into like our kind of big picture
conversation for today, is these types of court cases as
journalism or as entertainment I should say m hm, so
that if we're not getting it through like the more
traditional news channels, those updates by like you know, TV
anchors on Channel four.
Speaker 1 (11:24):
You know, there is a type of training that goes
into being a court reporter and like reporting on a case,
especially of this nature where maybe people are not trauma
informed and are also reporting what they're hearing or what
they're seeing via other social media platforms or news outlets
as well, and kind of regurgitating the information that they're seeing.
(11:46):
And I when I hear other people talk about it,
like just in general, right, not necessarily friends or family,
but just the chatter right of being online, is that
this case in some ways is very sensationalized because of
who it is.
Speaker 2 (12:01):
Yeah, and also like.
Speaker 1 (12:03):
The term we were talking about this yesterday, like the
term freakof right, and how that's kind of become a
part of our lexicon when it's actually describing something horrific
and some type of exploitation, depending on who you were
in that room. And so I think that that is
also something really important, where the freak off is kind
(12:24):
of become in some way like selecious and in some
ways a joke depending on who's using it and how
they're saying it, but it's actually a representation of something horrific,
depending again, like who you were in that room. Don't
go anywhere, locomotives. We'll be right back.
Speaker 2 (12:44):
And we're back with more of our episode. Notably, Sean
Combs is not being charged with like a domestic violence charge.
This is not a matter of Cassie going to the
local police department and filing a report because he abused
her in like a domestic violence context. This is the
federal government filing these sex trafficking charges against him, and
(13:07):
she's brought in as a key witness to the crime
of sex trafficking right as a victim of the crime,
she also was a witness to the crime, and that's
the role that she's playing on the stand. So every
time she's testifying about her experiences and the freak offs,
she's specifically testifying as to every time she was trafficked.
(13:30):
So every freak off is an instance of trafficking, of assault,
of abuse, of coercion, and everything else that was being
done to her. And it also raises the question, like
all the play by plays, all the specifics about the
baby oil and the male escorts that were being hired,
and the wigs that she had to wear, and like
(13:51):
the candle, like all these specifics about the way that
these trafficking situations were set up, why does the public
need to know? Oh? Right, do we need to know?
What difference does it make if we know the specifics
of how she was trafficked in a federal case like this,
you know, why does that information need to be communicated?
Speaker 1 (14:14):
Yeah, that's a good point, because there are certain things
that are specifically left out for the public to not know,
and this is one of those things where it feels
like everything is kind of being shared. Yeah, you know,
and with each testimonial it seems like it's getting worse
and worse what's being shared, and it's just available for
all of us, Which goes back to the original thesis, right,
(14:36):
that like this is part of entertainment for some people.
Speaker 2 (14:40):
Yes, there's like some very it's like true crime entertainment value. Yes,
where it's horrifying. I can't look away. A woman is
being horrifically abused, can't look away. We're gonna like comb
over every detail of how it happened. This comes up
every time there's a public trial with a famous woman
at the center who has been abused or manipulated in
(15:03):
some way. You know, I don't know what the solution
is because there's this other piece of like there's the
freedom of the press, of course, and freedom of speech,
and so it's also not a matter of oh, influencers
should not be spreading updates. It's more like, why are
these specific updates so drive so much traffic?
Speaker 1 (15:24):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (15:24):
You know, and I feel like the folks reporting, No,
these are the details that people are going to tune
in for.
Speaker 1 (15:30):
Yeah, it's part of that sensationalizing. We're gonna hold onto
these details that we think are going to get people
like riled up or going in some way.
Speaker 2 (15:40):
Yeah, and with every new witness it also is just
so it like reveals how many people were around and
were witnessing or were even involved, because he was not
pulling all this stuff off by himself, right, Like this
is a very elaborate scheme of his that involves a
(16:02):
lot of people in a lot of different locations for
many many years. So he had assistants and staff, and
there were like hotel staff everywhere they went, you know,
there was security guards, there were like other people he
partied with, other people he victimized. Just the sheer number
of people who can speak to what they witnessed and
(16:22):
how much of it is like really wild.
Speaker 1 (16:25):
That's partly why this case is so big for the public. Right.
But in addition, like why the federal government is trying
Shawn Combs because of the magnitude and the scope of
people involved.
Speaker 2 (16:36):
Absolutely and like it it goes back to also like
there have been over the years other times where we've
heard about Seawan Combs acting out violently towards people, Like
when his son was playing football at UCLA and Shawn
Combs throw a kettlebell at the UCLA football coach because
he was angry. He had some dispute with him over
(16:57):
his son and how his son was being played. So
he's somebody who I think everybody sort of knew for years.
But he has a temper that he has violent outbursts
that like his parties get out of control. Like it
seemed like there were a lot of people who were
in the know and in on his secrets that weren't
(17:18):
so secret.
Speaker 1 (17:19):
Right I mean, And I think notably one of those
people was Aubry Oda from Danny Kane, and she has
been talking about Sean colmbs P ditty for twenty years.
Was like sounding the alarm when she was with Danny
Kane and was removed from the group that she was in,
and she was part of making of the band as well.
And so she in an interview with people said she
(17:42):
does not feel vindicated because of course this is horrible,
like what the victim's experience and how they were exploited.
But there is like, Okay, people are finally listening to
something I've been saying for twenty years.
Speaker 2 (17:55):
Yeah, it's like there's no winning here. No, there's there's
no way that anybody can feel like victorious, even the
people who are now coming forward and testifying a because
they've probably been subpoenad, like they have to write.
Speaker 1 (18:10):
And that's a good thing to note too, is that
Cassie Ventura was subpoenad.
Speaker 2 (18:14):
Yes, they're not like volunteering to go testify. You don't
testify in a federal case like this unless the Feds
knock on your door right until you went to show up,
you know.
Speaker 1 (18:24):
And that was something that I saw online too, And
this is not the dominant narrative that I've seen, but
I have seen a couple of these people kind of
posing this question, like if you're wondering why Cassie is
speaking out now even though she received a settlement, kind
of like that, oh, that's not enough for you type
of sentiment, right, And the answer back to that is like, well,
she's being subpoenad because this is a federal case. This
(18:45):
is not a dB case. This is not Cassie versus
p Diddy. No, this is a federal case. She's a subpoenad.
Speaker 2 (18:51):
It's the United States, right, it's all of us versus
shawan Combe.
Speaker 1 (18:55):
When you put it that way, it's the people. It
is the people.
Speaker 2 (18:58):
It's the people versus shawan Combe. These were crimes against
not just one person, but a slew a whole group
of people, And I don't think that we really know
all of the victims, no wrapped up in all of this.
We know some of the big names. We know Cassie.
There's a Mia now like a former personal assistant who
(19:22):
has been testifying under a different name Mia, who also
has testified to like horrible working conditions of violent outbursts
that she endured from Combs, assaults that she endured from Combs.
So I think that this is just the tip of
the iceberg in a lot of ways.
Speaker 1 (19:38):
Don't go anywhere, lokamotives.
Speaker 2 (19:40):
We'll be right back, and we're back with more of
our episode.
Speaker 1 (19:47):
Prior to the trial, there was a journalist who also
went on record and talked about how when she was
working at Vibe and was profiling Sean Combs, like how
violent he was and how her computer was stolen because
he didn't want the profile she was writing to be
published and so like it goes back yeah, decades.
Speaker 2 (20:07):
Yeah, he has retaliated against a lot of people and
people have been afraid of him. Kid Cutty testified talked
about his relationship with Cassie and how Shawn Combs didn't
like it when he found out and Kid Cutty suspects
that Shawn Combs broke into his house, opened up a
bunch of Christmas presents, locked his dog in a room,
and then later tried to set his car on fire
(20:29):
with a Molotov cocktail. Like, people have been really targeted
by this person if they've done things that he doesn't like,
which explains a lot of why there was such a
bystander effect with his team, with his assistance in his
security guards and people who testified to like witnessing him
physically assault Cassie and other people, but they never said anything,
(20:51):
or at least didn't say anything to Puff Daddy, like
to Shawn Combs, right because they were afraid. They were
afraid that they would get home or the people that
they loved would get harmed. And this is how this
cycle of abuse and violence continues, right, Especially a person
in a position of power who pays everybody's salary, you know,
who like has control over their their careers and they're
(21:13):
under contract with him, and he maybe showers them with
gifts and with perks and with niceties and things that
make it so cool to work with him or to
date him, and then the violent outburst happens, and it
is that cycle, that cycle, and then there's threats and coercion. Well,
if you leave, you're never gonna you're never gonna work
in this town again. If you leave, I'm gonna release
all of these tapes that I took in our freak
(21:34):
offs or or at this party or whatever I made
you do. And then the night and then the gifts
come back, and you know, you're honeymooning again, and Okay,
maybe it's better now, and he feels sorry, but it
just continues on and on and on. So I'm sure
Cassie wasn't the only one caught in that cycle with him.
I'm sure even staff were caught in that cycle with him.
Speaker 1 (21:53):
Yeah. Absolutely, And I think that you bring up the
good point of like the power and control and the
intimidation and the base under effect, because there were also
instances during Cassie's statement that she there were times where
she did consent to these quote freak offs, right, And
I think that that's an important thing to note that
(22:13):
consent can be withdrawn at any time. You know, just
because you agreed to something one day does not mean
you agree the next day or even that same night.
That same day, and so that is something I feel
like nobody's the perfect victim does not exist, right, and
so to I think maybe question the validity of her
experience based on maybe consenting one day and not consenting
(22:35):
another is not appropriate, right.
Speaker 2 (22:37):
And it's also we have to complicate our understanding of
consent because if it's consent only because you think something
bad is going to happen, then that is a type
of coercive environment, absolutely right, And I think one of
the nuances And I'm glad that you brought up, you know,
the idea of consent in this situation, because the defense,
(22:58):
because there's so much evidence photo video and witness evidence,
video evidence of his violence towards her and his coercion
and his retaliation. So the defense for Shan Combs, all
they can really do is establish that she consented to
everything and she wanted to participate in everything. So what
they're doing is looking at some of the text messages
(23:19):
that have been entered into discovery and saying in these instances,
Cassie wrote, I'm always down for freak offs. I love
our freak COFs. I love our fos when we both
want them, and there have been I guess over the years,
moments where she wrote things like that. But then there's
also entered into discovery emails that she wrote right basically
(23:41):
pleading for him, like to love her. And she wrote
emails to her mother, you know, like basically asking for help.
And so it's not like you're saying it's not enough
to say yes one time, especially if there's all these
other things going on. Absolutely, you know, like did she
really have a choice to say yes or no in
(24:02):
her specific circumstance, I.
Speaker 1 (24:04):
Mean, and even thinking about like your own personal life,
like there are instances where we have or I have
said yes when I haven't wanted to, but I know
that this is important to my partners, so I'm gonna
say yes, you know. And so these are like the
the small moments that happen in relationships where you know,
(24:25):
it's really challenged, like you said, really complicating what consent means.
Those that power control dynamic may not be involved in
your relationship, but imagine if they are. And then the
reasons that you're saying yes when you want to say no.
Speaker 2 (24:38):
Yeah, And per Cassie's testimony, the freak off started when
she was very young. They started dating at nineteen by
twenty one, twenty two. He has her engaging in these
freak Offs and the way that Cassie talks about them,
which is why I think they are qualifying as a
type of trafficking. She talks about them like they were
a job, Like at some point she was full time
(25:00):
with the freak Offs, like multiple times a week every week.
They're like benders. They're lasting two, three, four days, so
she's spending her week engaging in the freak Off and
then recovering from the freak Off. She's testifying to having
like non stop UTIs basically for almost ten years, that
like even the medication stopped working for her because it
was so chronic. And she's testifying to like basically having
(25:25):
a roster of male escorts that they were calling so
often she like knew them by name right, And she
describes the freak Offs being like almost like plays that
Diddy was directing, and there's acts and there's scenes and
their sessions, and she talks about it like a straight
up job, and that she was basically a sex worker
(25:45):
for him after a while. And if you think about
when it started, how she was so young and then
it kept going for all of her twenties. Basically, you know,
there's no way that like that was her dream for
herself and that's what she wanted for herself absolutely, you know.
But she's under this ten album contract with Ditty and
she wants to make her music. And the place that
(26:10):
she lives is also like he's paying for it. You know,
her family is across the country. It seemed like she
was genuinely afraid to say no.
Speaker 1 (26:18):
Yeah. I mean that really hits all the points of
the power and control, right, the intimidation, the isolation, the
economic abuse, all of it.
Speaker 2 (26:30):
I think something to note too is there's different types
of like human traffickers and pimps. Like I think people
think of trafficking and they maybe think, I don't know,
like narcos or like women who are like working on
the street, right, But there's a lot of different ways
that women become trafficked. And so a few years ago
I participated in this like human trafficking training by this
(26:53):
anti trafficking organization called the Polaris Project, and they did
a big study about second trafficking between Mexico and the
United States. And something that I learned in that sex
trafficking training is that one of the types of traffickers
is called like a boyfriend trafficker, and the way that
you get involved with the boyfriend trafficker is through like
(27:16):
dating and love and romance, and they romance you and
it's the honeymoon phase and their person and they are
your boyfriend and you are dating and it is romantic.
Eventually that boyfriend says, well, if you love me, then
you'll do this for me. You know, you'll take this
package for me and you'll like transport it through the airport,
or you're going to do this little task for me,
(27:38):
or you're going to sleep with this person for money,
and it escalates until before you know it, you're in
a full on trafficking situation. And it sounds like this
is what happened with Cassie because she talks about being
in love with him and loving him and them being
like an item. So it sounds like he like boyfriended her,
exploited her into sexual exploitation.
Speaker 1 (28:01):
Yeah, that's a lot.
Speaker 2 (28:04):
It is a lot. It's fucked up, and our hearts
go out to Cassie, who is very pregnant also by
the way, while she's testifying.
Speaker 1 (28:12):
With her third child with her third child.
Speaker 2 (28:15):
By her husband, Alex Fine, formerly personal trainer to both
her and Shawn Combs.
Speaker 1 (28:21):
Oh, I don't think I knew that Shawn.
Speaker 2 (28:22):
Combs hired Alex Fine to train them and is shortly thereafter,
you know, Cassie and Alex Fine start to develop feelings
for one another. She ends her thing with Diddy somehow,
she like is able to get out of it. Yeah,
not unscathed. Right, there were assaults and abuse and all
(28:43):
kinds of stalking going on. But now she's married and
she has her third baby on the way with her husband.
This has also been interesting because as she's been testifying,
her husband has been in the courtroom. Yes, so of course,
what's the commentary about her.
Speaker 1 (28:57):
Husband she has to listen to, Well, what she quote did,
what she did, not what she was put through, not
how she was exploited, but her poor husband.
Speaker 2 (29:07):
Her poor husband, and what do we think about that?
Because it's like it's like this is so classic.
Speaker 1 (29:12):
Oh yeah, right, I mean one patriarchy, one oh one
rape culture, Like you know, it's it's horrible, and but
it's also not surprising, right to hear that type of
commentary like, oh, her, it's still centering the man of
the poor husband, not poor Cassie, and she has to relive,
be re traumatized and recount these details of a decade.
(29:36):
But her poor husband, let's deflect, Yeah, and he has
to hear this.
Speaker 2 (29:42):
Yeah. And so depending on who you are, then it's
because there are still Ditty supporters for sure. Not everybody
is like is not not everybody is denouncing him and
his actions, I mean, and.
Speaker 1 (29:55):
That is is I think the history of any male
celeb or someone of his caliber, right, even R Kelly
like still has supporters. Oh yeah, right, Bill Cosby still
has supporters. Notably, these are three black men, right, and
so the racial dynamic is obviously very important when talking
about this Johnny Depp, Johnny Depp has a lot of supporters,
(30:18):
Kit Scott supporters, and poor amberhard was villainized so much.
We also have an episode on that because that case,
I feel to me that was one of the first
examples of like a TikTok case. Yes, was Amber heard
versus Johnny Depp? Yeah, which it wasn't even versus them.
It was a libel case, right, but it was positioned
on social media as like Amber versus Johnny.
Speaker 2 (30:40):
It was positioned that way. And in both of these
cases it's so easy for the for a viewer who
hasn't like looked into it because of the rape culture,
because of the misogyny. Immediately, it's oh, Amber and Cassie
like trying to destroy these men and bring them down,
and why are they speaking up now? Johnny Depp filed
a lawsuit against Amber heard Relibel because of an essay
(31:03):
that she wrote that did not name him no, and
then with this one it's the federal government bringing them
to court. But in both instances, it's like this woman
at the center, who has been horribly brutalized, is like
at fault for something always, always.
Speaker 1 (31:20):
Always, I mean, And it goes to show that like
there hasn't been a reckoning, a me too reckoning for
all communities or subsets of the culture. Right. We saw
it with the film industry in some capacity. We haven't
necessarily seen it with hip hop and arts hip hop
and music.
Speaker 2 (31:37):
In the music industry, right, And so.
Speaker 1 (31:39):
It's that that I don't know if it's a ripple effect,
but it's like, not everyone has had their like their
me too reckoning, Not each industry has had it yet.
And in some ways this is a type of reckoning
because of how big Shawn Combs is and how influential
he's been in the culture for decades. But this is
(32:00):
like just the tip of the iceberg, and it's gonna
take like other people in the industry to actually like
not just be the bystanders and be like active in
calling this out exactly before it gets to this point
exactly exactly.
Speaker 2 (32:16):
And you know this hunger to like make it by
any means necessary, to like get on and to be successful.
I also think that that insane hunger to like get
ahead in the industry drives so much of this this
issue because whether we're talking about the staff right that
(32:41):
maybe is like experiencing some like bystander effect and not
acting because of all the reasons we've talked about, Like
they're nervous, they have their own careers, they fear retaliation,
they want to be successful in what they're doing, that
maybe this has been a big break for them, right.
And then there's the talent at the center of it,
and like young talent, impressionable talent you know, from all
(33:05):
over the place, from different places coming out here in
these instances to la like chasing a dream and then yeah,
you think you got your big break, this huge mogul
has taken a liking to you, but now you're like
in their clutches and p did he also having been
linked to some dubious like behavior with Usher, a young
(33:29):
Usher right when Usher was like sent to like Puffy's
flavor camp, to like live with puff Daddy when Usher
was a child. And also Justin Bieber also being linked
to like nefarious shit with puff Daddy when he was
a child.
Speaker 1 (33:45):
Yeah, it really does put going back to these like
crashouts in our previous episode. It really does put maybe
a Justin Bieber into a different context in light you know,
he was a child star and what type of exploitation
did he experience in the industry.
Speaker 2 (34:01):
Yeah, And it's one thing for adults even to be
in these like wild ditty parties, but I feel like
these kids were there too, you know. And so this
is like this person has caused like multi generational harm
when we think about the age range of these different
people who have been in his who have been in
(34:23):
his reach. So it really is a wild time decades
in the making. Yeah, decades in the making. And it
kind of seems like unfortunately in cases like this, one
victim is like never enough. Yeah, it's almost like there
has to be.
Speaker 1 (34:37):
There's definitely pile up absolutely.
Speaker 2 (34:39):
Before action is taken. Thank you all for listening. This
has been a particularly heavy episode. This case United States
versus Combs is still all over the news and social media,
and I anticipate that it will be for some time,
even after the trial ends. So please give yourself a
break from scrolling, from taking in this information, and if
(35:02):
you need resources, please call the National Domestic Violence Hotline
one eight hundred seven nine nine Safe one eight hundred
seven nine nine Safe and the National Human Trafficking Hotline
which is at one eight eight eight three seven three
seven eight eight eight.
Speaker 1 (35:22):
Thank you for listening to another episode of lok at
Dora Radio. I want to reiterate what Mala said. Please
take care of yourselves, take a scrolling break, check in
with your friends, check in with yourself, with your body, hydrate,
and we will catch you next time.
Speaker 2 (35:37):
Thanks you, Thos.
Speaker 1 (35:38):
Lokata Radio is executive produced by Yosa Fem and Mala Munjos.
Speaker 2 (35:43):
Stephanie Franco is our producer.
Speaker 1 (35:45):
Story editing by Medosa.
Speaker 2 (35:47):
Creative direction by me Mala.
Speaker 1 (35:49):
Look at Dora Radio is a part of iHeartRadio's Michael
Dura podcast Network.
Speaker 2 (35:53):
You can listen to Lokata Radio on the iHeartRadio app
or wherever you get your podcasts.
Speaker 1 (35:58):
Leave us a review and show with your prima or
share with your homegirl.
Speaker 2 (36:02):
And thank you to our local moorees, to our listeners
for tuning in each and every week.
Speaker 1 (36:06):
Besitos
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