July 20, 2022 • 25 mins
We are talking about all things BookTok and TikTok this week, and you won’t want to miss a single episode! Today’s guest is a prolific romance author whose work is often featured on “the Tok” - Nisha Sharma, author of “My So-Called Bollywood Life” and “Dr. Valle”. Other than writing swoon-worthy books, Nisha is an outspoken advocate for marginalised voices in the literary space – this discussion is an absolute page-turner.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
We are talking all things book talk and TikTok today,
and we are speaking specifically to an author whose work
is often featured on the talk. I do not sound
cool saying that, but I did try. Get Ready, you
will not want to miss today's discussion. I'm Sarah Wendell,
I'm ALICIAAI. Welcome to Love Struck Daily, where we talk
about love every single week. I'm in love with that,
(00:37):
I'm in love with you. This week is a deep
dive into all things TikTok, which I am so excited
about and have been enjoying so much. And one of
the things that I think is important is how many
perspectives there are within TikTok. Much like any form of
social media, it's not a monolith, and there's lots of
different ways in which people participate. We've got book publicists,
(01:01):
we've got book talkers, We've got people who want their
books to be on book talk but don't know how
that happens. And we have authors like you who are
creating amazing content for other people. What I really love
about it, and the reason I started it was because
I just wanted to talk to people like I just
(01:22):
wanted to connect with people somehow. And before that, I
would connect with people through my friends. I'd go to conferences,
I did book signings. I mean, there was like no
shortage of how much I traveled and wandered around meeting people,
and and all of a sudden it got shut off
really quickly, and I missed it. I mean, so much
of our job is solitary. You know that too, you know,
(01:44):
even if yeah, even if it's not, I mean you're
also an author, but you know whatever, You're like, the
primary nature of of publishing is that it's solitary. And
so I just wanted to connect with people. And I
found a really great community who appreciated the weirdness and
foolishness that I feel like I sometimes bring to the table.
(02:05):
And I hadn't really found that on other platforms. But TikTok.
They say that Instagram is for prettiness and TikTok is
for personality, and I feel like ti tak is also
for pretty people, but but it is for for people
who have personality. I think, I think, if if that's
what you use to connect with people, and I feel
(02:26):
like that's what I've always used to connect with people,
as humor and uh, the things I say, I think.
I think it was like a great outlet for that.
So I do feel like those early days of TikTok
like those I hear the songs now and I'm like nostalgic.
I mean, I'm not nostalgic for early, but I am
nostalgic for that era. I will tell you that in
(02:46):
one of our cars, we have Serious x M and
there's a TikTok radio channel. Yeah, I love it. I
love it. My younger child who's on TikTok, was like, Mom,
You've got to listen to this. And my other child,
who is older, it's like, oh, it's so bad. It's
so bad. It's so bad. So I'm like, all right,
I'm in the car, I'll turn it on and they're
playing the backyard Agans. Yeah, And I was like, this
(03:06):
is amazing. I'm listening to the Backyardigans in my car
in serious Sexum, nothing is wrong with the world at
this time. It's amazing to like think about things in
terms of like pre TikTok and post TikTok and what
TikTok have influence now, or like, you know, Lizzo's latest hit,
which is amazing, like the opening lines for it are
made for TikTok like something. They're just made for TikTok,
(03:27):
and it's just it's so cool to see see how
one app can can change so many things. And I
also think that especially for you, TikTok is like a
venue in which you can release your inner theater kid. Yeah,
I was a drama kid. It was. It is unfettered
theater kids, and I love it so much. Well, this week,
(03:47):
we are continuing to explore the intersection of theater kids
and book people. The intersection of theater kids and book
people has brought us book talk, and it's book Talk Week.
We are inviting one of our favorite authors onto the
show to talk about her experience with book talk. Nisha
Sharma is a good friend of mine and she's also
a prolific romance author in both lay and adult romance.
(04:09):
We have her to thank for such incredible books such
as My So Called Bollywood Life, Dating dr Bill and
several more upcoming projects. I'm very excited for her news
series by Way. As an author, she's watched the industry
transform under the influence of book talk and we can't
wait for it to hear her hot take on absolutely everything.
Please Welcome, Nicia Sharma, Welcome Nisha. We are so excited
(04:36):
to talk to you. We are doing a deep dive
into all things book talk, and you're the perfect person
to talk to about this, So thank you so much
for joining us. I'm so glad to be here. This
is super exciting. It seems to me that a lot
of the coverage I've seen of book talk lately has
been I don't understand this strange phenomenon, and it's very
reminiscent of how people talked about book bloggers fifteen years ago.
(04:59):
So I feel that in my core, like it's very familiar,
but it's also like, wow, this again, we're going to
put down a new way of talking about books. Let's
how about we don't. So we're here to like really
take a deep dive and celebrate all of the very
cool things the book talk is doing. Funny story, Alicia
is the one who taught me how to use TikTok.
Nisha is wonderful like getting people together. I think that
(05:19):
is one of her biggest skills. So she assembled the
South Asian romance authors in a little conference, and so
I joined it like at the end of one day,
like very casually basically drinking chips out of a bag
and it was funny because I was I thought my
camera was off, so I like tilted the bag out
toward my mouth and all of a sudden I hear
(05:39):
Sonali go, Sonali dav goo. Um can we just talk
about how Alicia is eating her chips for act? Damn it?
I was like, hey, guys, And so somebody was like, well,
what is like, what is this TikTok that I'm hearing about?
I think this is like last year, maybe sometimes a
little bit earlier. And I was like, oh man, I
love TikTok. Let me like and they're like, can show
(06:00):
us something. So I was like showing everybody how to
set up their accounts and it was like there were
like twelve people in the room. Everybody's like, wait, I
don't understand the difference between account and it was amazing.
But that was how yes, I I taught technically I
taught Misha TikTok. I don't think I actually taught her
(06:21):
anything in that hour, but it was it was very fun.
It was a lot of fun. But I love Nisha
about about you and you're fun now at TikTok is
that you and I do very different things on the
app and use it in different ways, and I love that,
Like I love seeing how people take something very you know,
like the base instructions I could give you from it,
(06:43):
and you like went in a great different direction. And
I think that's one of the great things about an
app like TikTok or Instagram. I definitely think that book
Talk is a space where you also see those that
varied approach to like books and the way that people
relate to stories. Um what I think is the most
(07:04):
fascinating about book Talk is that, um, so many romance
readers are coming to romance and you're watching their evolution
like play out in their videos. It's like, Okay, you've
now discovered this thing about romance or you've now started
to connect the dots, and that is that is something
(07:27):
that I think as a as a baby author, when
I joined the romance industry got over a decade ago,
I had gone through that, like except you know, by myself.
We didn't we didn't even have Instagram back then, and
you know, and now I'm watching those same feelings that
I had, you know, in the prophecy of my own
(07:48):
home reading through you know, like back then it was
the rom com wave too, like I was going through
the Susan Wilizabeth Phillips and the Jennifer Crazy books, and
now it's the same rom Com way that people kind
of realizing certain things that I had done ten years ago.
That's the thing which I love is that whenever a
new influx of people come to romance, they start talking
(08:10):
about things like we haven't been talking about them for
decades already. And I know for decades because remember, I
mean you too, both remember, and I hope you know,
people who are listening can learn about the great cover
controversy of the fifty Shades are out. We'll be back
(08:30):
after this short break. The great cover controversy of the
fifty Shades era, where everything, every cover was an object
and it was a male centered object, right and and
the argument for those then was a it sells and
(08:53):
beads because people aren't embarrassed reading it. And we had
the same conversation wrap around then, like, well is it
is it because we're you know, internal misogynsts, We don't
want to read it. But everything, everything kind of comes
full circle. And in the early two thousand's we also
had illustrated covers and all these outcomes, and we had
this We have been having this conversation since for decades,
(09:18):
like for literally for decades, for lifetimes at this point,
and so it is it is so interesting to me
that like, and I mean, good for you that you're
addressing At this point, I'm like, I'm tired keep going
on this conversation. But that's I think where I'm able
to kind of even have a voice is because there
are so many people who are dressing it head on,
like the way that we've all been talking about it.
(09:39):
But the one thing that I think people that I
can contribute to is how marginalized voices are consistently excluded
from this conversation and so very much. Then, you know,
we're just I'm just starting to see people who look
like me and my covers. So for you to say
that people are now no longer should no longer be
included on covers anymore? Well, okay, like what about the
(10:00):
fact that I'm finally seeing representation? Are you also impacting
on my community as well? I saw that TikTok of
yours and I was going to I put it in
my draft to stitch it actually because and I'll just
tell people now my very first cover. Uh, it had
an Indian heroine on it. This was in two thousand
and eight, two thousand nine. Uh. They took a white girl,
tinted her skin brown and then added fact like photoshopped
(10:23):
her bigger. And that was my Indian woman representation at
the time. So times have very much changed and things
are different, and I love Clinch covers. I yearned for
the day that, you know, marketing puts them back. I
don't know if we're gonna ever return to mass markets
because of cost, but that's another story. But that mass
(10:46):
market Clinch in Walmart, like that was my dream when
I was like just starting out in the early two thousand's,
like I and I was writing, and I was, you know,
I was imagining my book and like Walmart or Target
or grocery store, that was what I imagined, like a
punch cover. And I remember, I remember how disheartened I
was when I got that first cover and I thought,
(11:07):
there's no way, like, I'm never going to get anybody
who looks like me on a cover. And then fast
forward to I think I think it was wrong to
need you. They did a cover shoot for it because
they couldn't find any again dearth of stock photos with
with browner black people on them, and they did a
cover shoot and I cried when I got that cover
(11:27):
shoot because I was like, my god, this is you know,
like this is what I wanted all those years ago,
you know, eight or nine years ago, and it took
me eight or nine years, and it took me getting
a publisher and then putting out the money. So like
there's multiple blockades to this, and this is not something
that like a random indie author can do. I couldn't
do it as an indie author. I couldn't afford a
(11:47):
cover shoot. I couldn't afford you know, any of this.
And and a smaller publisher can't either. And also publishers
who don't want to put the money out aren't gonna
put the money out. So so the idea that like,
oh we don't want anymore because it's embarrassed, well some
of us never got the chance to have it, so
let us have it, you know, like, let us have that.
And you know what, like I know that it's not
(12:07):
the trend right now, but it does sell. You know,
it's a romance. It was a trend for many years.
Covers have a lot of work to do in a
very short time, very much. So it is so interesting
to me. I don't know, Nisha, if you've seen the
recent coverage, because I mean I I've been on TikTok
now since like early pandemic days. You've been on since
last year ish? Right, how long have you been on?
(12:29):
About a year and a half. Yeah, yeah, a little
over a year. And so I think we're both fairly
early adopters of it. And when I joined, I remember
the reaction from the book community was like that is
so cringe e, Like what are you doing on that
kid's app? Like they were making fun of it and
probably making fun of me. I remember that, yeah, And
so I was like whatever, I don't care. I'll just
(12:50):
keep going because I fully believe in order to succeed
in life, you have to be cringe e. So true
about when when I was teaching you guys, you know,
on the zoom the reaction from a lot of the
authors and and and around us was like, I guess
I should learn it, but I don't really know. And
recently there's been like a New York Times article that
came out, there's been like a lot of coverage about
(13:13):
how if you're not on book talk as an author,
you're gonna die, like you are gonna wither on the vine,
and I am getting panicked emails and like questions. I
went to a conference a couple of weeks ago. I
went to the American Books Dollars Association conference, and like
there was an air of like we're missing out, like
we're missing money on the table, and and it sort
(13:37):
of disheartens me, Like it makes me a little bit sad,
because I do think one of the great things about
the app personally, like this is just a personal opinion,
is is that it is so it feels off the cuff,
like it feels like we're just there and we're just
showing our personality and having fun. And when you put
like a money aspect into it, it kind of like
(13:59):
like it's not I don't know if the content is
going to be a do you know what I mean?
Are you sensing that same same air from authors or
from publishing in general, because I definitely am. I'm feeling it.
I certainly am, and I'm not even on TikTok, so,
like I have two thoughts about this. The first is
like nothing on social media is going to work for
an author if it's not coming from an authentic place
(14:22):
like that. I'm believe that, Like if you are going
into something and you're going in rehearsed and you're like smiling,
like you're smiling for a picture and you're like read
my book, like, it's not going to work for you
and I And I'm saying that as someone who has
supported marketing organizations and tech companies four years, Like the
(14:44):
very first thing that they ask you is what is true?
Like what is true? And if that is not your
true self, that is not going to work. And um,
I mean maybe some people can make it work because
they developed this whole additional identity, but there's truth to
that additional identity, Like there's still some sort of truth
to that additional identity. So I will say that, like,
(15:04):
if you're going on there with like not bring your
authentic self to your platforms and trying to build a
brand based on something that you know, you think other
people want to see from you, you know, I don't
know how long that's sustainable. So the second piece I
will say about you know, TikTok and the desperation, the
(15:25):
stench of desperation. I don't know why we aren't turning
to publishers and telling them, hey, well this is this
continues to be publishers putting the work on authors to
do their own marketing. Why are we paying new royalties?
(15:47):
We'll be right back after this short break. Why are
we paying new royalties or like you know, a chunk
of our sales. You're not going to be doing the
work that we're contracting you for. So, you know, this
(16:09):
is another I think crack and fissure in the current
publishing model that needs to be reevaluated and reinvented in
a way that is sustainable and equitable for all types
of you know, readers, authors and professionals. How did you
build your following? What was your sort of TikTok trajectory
(16:32):
and building of the audience that you have now? So
when I joined TikTok, Alicia had like taught us at
us at up our profile. I did my very first
video like the next day, and my plan was to
really just get better romance recommendations. I felt like I
was this is you know, early pandemic before we had
(16:54):
the vaccine. I was current living out of like a
pod and in my parents retire at home because we're
in between houses and I just wanted some really great
comfort reads, and so I thought, let me just kind
of find my place on book talk, figure out how
to get these recommendations, and then you know, I can
(17:15):
just maybe talk about my book every once in a
while and be done with it. I started to see
like some people make very broad statements about the genre
because they were early in their book talk experience or
their their romance reading experience, and they were sharing those
very broad statements on book talk, and I felt like
(17:36):
I had to comment on that because I was like,
wait a minute, let's hold up, Like you're you're ignoring
marginalized communities. You are ignoring a lot of individuals who
have worked very hard in the industry to bring not
only like a platform for marginalized voices, but to pave
(17:57):
the pathway for other writers. And so that's kind of
where I ended up where most of my videos kind
of end up, like between Spicy book rex Mafia romance
recommendations and talking about martialized authors in the romance industry.
So someone had told me very early on that if
I wanted to grow my following should just be consistent,
(18:19):
and I had a lot of things to say, so
that has never been a problem because I always have
a lot of things to So, Um, I just made
a video a day for like the first six months,
and a year later, I think I'm over. I'm almost
sixteen thousand. So wow, yeah, we need to go. That's amazing. Yeah,
it's been. It's been a journey because I feel like
(18:41):
while I have also while I've been sharing knowledge, it's
also been a really interesting experience connecting with marginalized creators
and other activists, specifically in diversity, equity and inclusion, which
is where my what my day job is. Oh I
didn't know that. Yeah, I'm so, I'm a I'm the
head of diversity equity and inclusion at a global tech company.
Oh as you do. Holy crap. It's a lot of
(19:02):
it's a lot of activists work, and um, I feel
like I've connected with other people who also are romance
readers and really passionate about romance. So there's this intersection
of both of my identities that has a place in
a corner of book talk, and we're all talking about
things now, like about the huge problem we have with
banned books. Um, the problems that we have with marginalized
(19:26):
identities being quieted without you know, like any sort of
awareness or news or anything you find out later. Like
I didn't realize Dating Doctor Bill, which was my last release,
was banned in like three or four different libraries in
my own state. Oh my gosh. Yeah, And I didn't
know about it until a reader had mentioned it to me.
(19:46):
And so, you know, these are like the kinds of
conversations that I'm now having in the books talk space.
It's been a it's been a wild ride. That is
a wild ride. What are your favorite things to do
on TikTok? Like, what are the things that you have seen,
you have done that give you that Oh, yes, that's
gonna be a great feeling, the one that Alicia has
like five times a day. I wish um. I think
(20:08):
like the ones that I love are generally not the
ones that go viral unfortunately. Yes, that's very true, right,
Like the videos that I love to make are usually
the ones to get like less than a thousand views.
But the videos that I do off the cuff, like
I wake up, I have no makeup on, I barely
call my hair, you know, are the ones that get
ten thousand views. And you know that's what everyone remembers me,
(20:31):
Like how I look um, But I love talking about
books that I am absolutely obsessing over and the stuff
that I feel like take a lot of my energy
but I think are important are actually the ones to
end up get the most views, which are like right now,
there's a conversation about like do we remove like the
(20:51):
Clinch cover like, because people are unpacking their own internalized misogyny,
and they are are realizing things about them selves and
saying it online without taking a pause and realizing what
the impact of what they're saying, Like saying half naked
individuals on covers is cringe. May also like speak more
(21:11):
about where you are in your journey than it does
about your taste in romance. And so you know, that's
that's something that a lot of people are addressing right
now on book talk, but I'm I also addressed. I
want to ask you, Nisha, what are some of your
very favorite book talk accounts. Oh that's a great question. Okay,
So bookworm Bullet who um is really a champion for
(21:37):
South Asian romance. Another person who I absolutely love. Her
name is Sandina and she does these incredible video deep dives.
She's right now getting her masters in psychology. So the
way that she analyzes romance is really interesting. Of course,
the two creators of book Talk who actually had kind
(21:59):
of identified the tag and started creating books videos, and
that is Kate's books and then the other one is
Aymon's books. Those are definitely, I think some of my
favorite accounts. Thank you, and before we wrap up, please
tell us your TikTok user names so people can follow you.
(22:21):
You can find me at Nisha Wrights w R I
t e S, which is the same on all of
my social media accounts. Thank you so much for joining us, Nisha,
it has been absolutely delightful. Absolutely Alicia. I think I
could talk to Nisha about TikTok with you for hours
and hours and never get bored. Well, you know what
(22:43):
you can do at my wedding is toxic Naha. It's
gonna be a long way. You're gonna be there. It's
I'm r s V ping for both of you right now.
Literally did I literally opened the invisation and filled it out.
I don't screw around with rs V. Get very attentive
to them. I could talk to Nisha about TikTok and
(23:05):
books for hours, like this could be a four hour
show and I would be super on board for it,
happy as a clam. Yep, she's fantastic. But in all
things tradition, we do need to love to go, and
I have I have to love to come. You have
to alright, go for it. So the first one is
what you said, don't be afraid to be cringe e.
This is the intersection of book people and theater kids.
(23:27):
Just let it out, Just let it all out. Yep.
The other thing, I'm going to be a little bit
weird and nerdy because I think the nerd element needs
to be explored. Carl Sagan once said, we have traveled
this way before, and there is much to be learned.
We have traveled through all of these elements of promotion
and social media and new ways of talking about books,
and yet we are still exploring the same issues of
(23:48):
identity and authenticity. And that is both wonderful and a
little discouraging. But I'm focusing on a wonderful We would
love to hear about your favorite book talk accounts or
TikTok accounts. You can emails that love stark daily at
frolictop Media, or you know what, just messages personally. I mean,
We're happy to look these up on our road too,
(24:08):
and we would love to hear from you. And if
you're curious about book talk, you can find Nisha at
Nsha Writes and Alicia where can people find you? On
the TikTok Oh? Yeah, you can find me at the
Real Alicia Rye because Alicia Rye Writes was already taken.
How dare? How dare? How dare? Thank you so much
(24:28):
for joining us today and come back from one more
amazing episode all about book talk. If you are looking
for more of me, Sarah, you can find me at
Smart Bitches, trashy books dot com. I'm at Smart Bitches
just about everywhere and on your podcatcher at smart Podcast
Trashy Books. You can find me Alicia on TikTok at
the Real Alicia Rye or on Instagram at Alicia Rye
(24:51):
Writes or on Twitter at Alicia ray I also have
a website, Alicia ry dot com, and you can find
me and Kai together on our new YouTube channel, The
Happy Place. Our researcher is Jesse Epstein, our editor is
Jen Jacobs. We are produced by Abigail Steckler and Little
Scorpion Studios, with executive producer Frolic Media. This is an
(25:11):
I Heart radio podcast. Have a very happily ever actor today.
I'm in love with the same, I'm in love with you.
(25:34):
I'm in love with you. What's your favorite book? Talk?
Do you have a favorite channel? Is it a channel?
Is it? What? Is it? Yeah? Is it? Is it
a channel? Is it? Is it a screen? Nit? What
the is the right word? Fuck? I'm get off my lawn.
We are talking all things book talk and TikTok today,
and we are speaking specifically to an author whose work
is often featured on the talk. I do not sound
cool saying that, but I did try. Get Ready, you
will not want to miss today's discussion. I'm Sarah Wendell,
I'm ALICIAAI. Welcome to Love Struck Daily, where we talk
about love every single week. I'm in love with that,
(00:37):
I'm in love with you. This week is a deep
dive into all things TikTok, which I am so excited
about and have been enjoying so much. And one of
the things that I think is important is how many
perspectives there are within TikTok. Much like any form of
social media, it's not a monolith, and there's lots of
different ways in which people participate. We've got book publicists,
(01:01):
we've got book talkers, We've got people who want their
books to be on book talk but don't know how
that happens. And we have authors like you who are
creating amazing content for other people. What I really love
about it, and the reason I started it was because
I just wanted to talk to people like I just
(01:22):
wanted to connect with people somehow. And before that, I
would connect with people through my friends. I'd go to conferences,
I did book signings. I mean, there was like no
shortage of how much I traveled and wandered around meeting people,
and and all of a sudden it got shut off
really quickly, and I missed it. I mean, so much
of our job is solitary. You know that too, you know,
(01:44):
even if yeah, even if it's not, I mean you're
also an author, but you know whatever, You're like, the
primary nature of of publishing is that it's solitary. And
so I just wanted to connect with people. And I
found a really great community who appreciated the weirdness and
foolishness that I feel like I sometimes bring to the table.
(02:05):
And I hadn't really found that on other platforms. But TikTok.
They say that Instagram is for prettiness and TikTok is
for personality, and I feel like ti tak is also
for pretty people, but but it is for for people
who have personality. I think, I think, if if that's
what you use to connect with people, and I feel
(02:26):
like that's what I've always used to connect with people,
as humor and uh, the things I say, I think.
I think it was like a great outlet for that.
So I do feel like those early days of TikTok
like those I hear the songs now and I'm like nostalgic.
I mean, I'm not nostalgic for early, but I am
nostalgic for that era. I will tell you that in
(02:46):
one of our cars, we have Serious x M and
there's a TikTok radio channel. Yeah, I love it. I
love it. My younger child who's on TikTok, was like, Mom,
You've got to listen to this. And my other child,
who is older, it's like, oh, it's so bad. It's
so bad. It's so bad. So I'm like, all right,
I'm in the car, I'll turn it on and they're
playing the backyard Agans. Yeah, And I was like, this
(03:06):
is amazing. I'm listening to the Backyardigans in my car
in serious Sexum, nothing is wrong with the world at
this time. It's amazing to like think about things in
terms of like pre TikTok and post TikTok and what
TikTok have influence now, or like, you know, Lizzo's latest hit,
which is amazing, like the opening lines for it are
made for TikTok like something. They're just made for TikTok,
(03:27):
and it's just it's so cool to see see how
one app can can change so many things. And I
also think that especially for you, TikTok is like a
venue in which you can release your inner theater kid. Yeah,
I was a drama kid. It was. It is unfettered
theater kids, and I love it so much. Well, this week,
(03:47):
we are continuing to explore the intersection of theater kids
and book people. The intersection of theater kids and book
people has brought us book talk, and it's book Talk Week.
We are inviting one of our favorite authors onto the
show to talk about her experience with book talk. Nisha
Sharma is a good friend of mine and she's also
a prolific romance author in both lay and adult romance.
(04:09):
We have her to thank for such incredible books such
as My So Called Bollywood Life, Dating dr Bill and
several more upcoming projects. I'm very excited for her news
series by Way. As an author, she's watched the industry
transform under the influence of book talk and we can't
wait for it to hear her hot take on absolutely everything.
Please Welcome, Nicia Sharma, Welcome Nisha. We are so excited
(04:36):
to talk to you. We are doing a deep dive
into all things book talk, and you're the perfect person
to talk to about this, So thank you so much
for joining us. I'm so glad to be here. This
is super exciting. It seems to me that a lot
of the coverage I've seen of book talk lately has
been I don't understand this strange phenomenon, and it's very
reminiscent of how people talked about book bloggers fifteen years ago.
(04:59):
So I feel that in my core, like it's very familiar,
but it's also like, wow, this again, we're going to
put down a new way of talking about books. Let's
how about we don't. So we're here to like really
take a deep dive and celebrate all of the very
cool things the book talk is doing. Funny story, Alicia
is the one who taught me how to use TikTok.
Nisha is wonderful like getting people together. I think that
(05:19):
is one of her biggest skills. So she assembled the
South Asian romance authors in a little conference, and so
I joined it like at the end of one day,
like very casually basically drinking chips out of a bag
and it was funny because I was I thought my
camera was off, so I like tilted the bag out
toward my mouth and all of a sudden I hear
(05:39):
Sonali go, Sonali dav goo. Um can we just talk
about how Alicia is eating her chips for act? Damn it?
I was like, hey, guys, And so somebody was like, well,
what is like, what is this TikTok that I'm hearing about?
I think this is like last year, maybe sometimes a
little bit earlier. And I was like, oh man, I
love TikTok. Let me like and they're like, can show
(06:00):
us something. So I was like showing everybody how to
set up their accounts and it was like there were
like twelve people in the room. Everybody's like, wait, I
don't understand the difference between account and it was amazing.
But that was how yes, I I taught technically I
taught Misha TikTok. I don't think I actually taught her
(06:21):
anything in that hour, but it was it was very fun.
It was a lot of fun. But I love Nisha
about about you and you're fun now at TikTok is
that you and I do very different things on the
app and use it in different ways, and I love that,
Like I love seeing how people take something very you know,
like the base instructions I could give you from it,
(06:43):
and you like went in a great different direction. And
I think that's one of the great things about an
app like TikTok or Instagram. I definitely think that book
Talk is a space where you also see those that
varied approach to like books and the way that people
relate to stories. Um what I think is the most
(07:04):
fascinating about book Talk is that, um, so many romance
readers are coming to romance and you're watching their evolution
like play out in their videos. It's like, Okay, you've
now discovered this thing about romance or you've now started
to connect the dots, and that is that is something
(07:27):
that I think as a as a baby author, when
I joined the romance industry got over a decade ago,
I had gone through that, like except you know, by myself.
We didn't we didn't even have Instagram back then, and
you know, and now I'm watching those same feelings that
I had, you know, in the prophecy of my own
(07:48):
home reading through you know, like back then it was
the rom com wave too, like I was going through
the Susan Wilizabeth Phillips and the Jennifer Crazy books, and
now it's the same rom Com way that people kind
of realizing certain things that I had done ten years ago.
That's the thing which I love is that whenever a
new influx of people come to romance, they start talking
(08:10):
about things like we haven't been talking about them for
decades already. And I know for decades because remember, I
mean you too, both remember, and I hope you know,
people who are listening can learn about the great cover
controversy of the fifty Shades are out. We'll be back
(08:30):
after this short break. The great cover controversy of the
fifty Shades era, where everything, every cover was an object
and it was a male centered object, right and and
the argument for those then was a it sells and
(08:53):
beads because people aren't embarrassed reading it. And we had
the same conversation wrap around then, like, well is it
is it because we're you know, internal misogynsts, We don't
want to read it. But everything, everything kind of comes
full circle. And in the early two thousand's we also
had illustrated covers and all these outcomes, and we had
this We have been having this conversation since for decades,
(09:18):
like for literally for decades, for lifetimes at this point,
and so it is it is so interesting to me
that like, and I mean, good for you that you're
addressing At this point, I'm like, I'm tired keep going
on this conversation. But that's I think where I'm able
to kind of even have a voice is because there
are so many people who are dressing it head on,
like the way that we've all been talking about it.
(09:39):
But the one thing that I think people that I
can contribute to is how marginalized voices are consistently excluded
from this conversation and so very much. Then, you know,
we're just I'm just starting to see people who look
like me and my covers. So for you to say
that people are now no longer should no longer be
included on covers anymore? Well, okay, like what about the
(10:00):
fact that I'm finally seeing representation? Are you also impacting
on my community as well? I saw that TikTok of
yours and I was going to I put it in
my draft to stitch it actually because and I'll just
tell people now my very first cover. Uh, it had
an Indian heroine on it. This was in two thousand
and eight, two thousand nine. Uh. They took a white girl,
tinted her skin brown and then added fact like photoshopped
(10:23):
her bigger. And that was my Indian woman representation at
the time. So times have very much changed and things
are different, and I love Clinch covers. I yearned for
the day that, you know, marketing puts them back. I
don't know if we're gonna ever return to mass markets
because of cost, but that's another story. But that mass
(10:46):
market Clinch in Walmart, like that was my dream when
I was like just starting out in the early two thousand's,
like I and I was writing, and I was, you know,
I was imagining my book and like Walmart or Target
or grocery store, that was what I imagined, like a
punch cover. And I remember, I remember how disheartened I
was when I got that first cover and I thought,
(11:07):
there's no way, like, I'm never going to get anybody
who looks like me on a cover. And then fast
forward to I think I think it was wrong to
need you. They did a cover shoot for it because
they couldn't find any again dearth of stock photos with
with browner black people on them, and they did a
cover shoot and I cried when I got that cover
(11:27):
shoot because I was like, my god, this is you know,
like this is what I wanted all those years ago,
you know, eight or nine years ago, and it took
me eight or nine years, and it took me getting
a publisher and then putting out the money. So like
there's multiple blockades to this, and this is not something
that like a random indie author can do. I couldn't
do it as an indie author. I couldn't afford a
(11:47):
cover shoot. I couldn't afford you know, any of this.
And and a smaller publisher can't either. And also publishers
who don't want to put the money out aren't gonna
put the money out. So so the idea that like,
oh we don't want anymore because it's embarrassed, well some
of us never got the chance to have it, so
let us have it, you know, like, let us have that.
And you know what, like I know that it's not
(12:07):
the trend right now, but it does sell. You know,
it's a romance. It was a trend for many years.
Covers have a lot of work to do in a
very short time, very much. So it is so interesting
to me. I don't know, Nisha, if you've seen the
recent coverage, because I mean I I've been on TikTok
now since like early pandemic days. You've been on since
last year ish? Right, how long have you been on?
(12:29):
About a year and a half. Yeah, yeah, a little
over a year. And so I think we're both fairly
early adopters of it. And when I joined, I remember
the reaction from the book community was like that is
so cringe e, Like what are you doing on that
kid's app? Like they were making fun of it and
probably making fun of me. I remember that, yeah, And
so I was like whatever, I don't care. I'll just
(12:50):
keep going because I fully believe in order to succeed
in life, you have to be cringe e. So true
about when when I was teaching you guys, you know,
on the zoom the reaction from a lot of the
authors and and and around us was like, I guess
I should learn it, but I don't really know. And
recently there's been like a New York Times article that
came out, there's been like a lot of coverage about
(13:13):
how if you're not on book talk as an author,
you're gonna die, like you are gonna wither on the vine,
and I am getting panicked emails and like questions. I
went to a conference a couple of weeks ago. I
went to the American Books Dollars Association conference, and like
there was an air of like we're missing out, like
we're missing money on the table, and and it sort
(13:37):
of disheartens me, Like it makes me a little bit sad,
because I do think one of the great things about
the app personally, like this is just a personal opinion,
is is that it is so it feels off the cuff,
like it feels like we're just there and we're just
showing our personality and having fun. And when you put
like a money aspect into it, it kind of like
(13:59):
like it's not I don't know if the content is
going to be a do you know what I mean?
Are you sensing that same same air from authors or
from publishing in general, because I definitely am. I'm feeling it.
I certainly am, and I'm not even on TikTok, so,
like I have two thoughts about this. The first is
like nothing on social media is going to work for
an author if it's not coming from an authentic place
(14:22):
like that. I'm believe that, Like if you are going
into something and you're going in rehearsed and you're like smiling,
like you're smiling for a picture and you're like read
my book, like, it's not going to work for you
and I And I'm saying that as someone who has
supported marketing organizations and tech companies four years, Like the
(14:44):
very first thing that they ask you is what is true?
Like what is true? And if that is not your
true self, that is not going to work. And um,
I mean maybe some people can make it work because
they developed this whole additional identity, but there's truth to
that additional identity, Like there's still some sort of truth
to that additional identity. So I will say that, like,
(15:04):
if you're going on there with like not bring your
authentic self to your platforms and trying to build a
brand based on something that you know, you think other
people want to see from you, you know, I don't
know how long that's sustainable. So the second piece I
will say about you know, TikTok and the desperation, the
(15:25):
stench of desperation. I don't know why we aren't turning
to publishers and telling them, hey, well this is this
continues to be publishers putting the work on authors to
do their own marketing. Why are we paying new royalties?
(15:47):
We'll be right back after this short break. Why are
we paying new royalties or like you know, a chunk
of our sales. You're not going to be doing the
work that we're contracting you for. So, you know, this
(16:09):
is another I think crack and fissure in the current
publishing model that needs to be reevaluated and reinvented in
a way that is sustainable and equitable for all types
of you know, readers, authors and professionals. How did you
build your following? What was your sort of TikTok trajectory
(16:32):
and building of the audience that you have now? So
when I joined TikTok, Alicia had like taught us at
us at up our profile. I did my very first
video like the next day, and my plan was to
really just get better romance recommendations. I felt like I
was this is you know, early pandemic before we had
(16:54):
the vaccine. I was current living out of like a
pod and in my parents retire at home because we're
in between houses and I just wanted some really great
comfort reads, and so I thought, let me just kind
of find my place on book talk, figure out how
to get these recommendations, and then you know, I can
(17:15):
just maybe talk about my book every once in a
while and be done with it. I started to see
like some people make very broad statements about the genre
because they were early in their book talk experience or
their their romance reading experience, and they were sharing those
very broad statements on book talk, and I felt like
(17:36):
I had to comment on that because I was like,
wait a minute, let's hold up, Like you're you're ignoring
marginalized communities. You are ignoring a lot of individuals who
have worked very hard in the industry to bring not
only like a platform for marginalized voices, but to pave
(17:57):
the pathway for other writers. And so that's kind of
where I ended up where most of my videos kind
of end up, like between Spicy book rex Mafia romance
recommendations and talking about martialized authors in the romance industry.
So someone had told me very early on that if
I wanted to grow my following should just be consistent,
(18:19):
and I had a lot of things to say, so
that has never been a problem because I always have
a lot of things to So, Um, I just made
a video a day for like the first six months,
and a year later, I think I'm over. I'm almost
sixteen thousand. So wow, yeah, we need to go. That's amazing. Yeah,
it's been. It's been a journey because I feel like
(18:41):
while I have also while I've been sharing knowledge, it's
also been a really interesting experience connecting with marginalized creators
and other activists, specifically in diversity, equity and inclusion, which
is where my what my day job is. Oh I
didn't know that. Yeah, I'm so, I'm a I'm the
head of diversity equity and inclusion at a global tech company.
Oh as you do. Holy crap. It's a lot of
(19:02):
it's a lot of activists work, and um, I feel
like I've connected with other people who also are romance
readers and really passionate about romance. So there's this intersection
of both of my identities that has a place in
a corner of book talk, and we're all talking about
things now, like about the huge problem we have with
banned books. Um, the problems that we have with marginalized
(19:26):
identities being quieted without you know, like any sort of
awareness or news or anything you find out later. Like
I didn't realize Dating Doctor Bill, which was my last release,
was banned in like three or four different libraries in
my own state. Oh my gosh. Yeah, And I didn't
know about it until a reader had mentioned it to me.
(19:46):
And so, you know, these are like the kinds of
conversations that I'm now having in the books talk space.
It's been a it's been a wild ride. That is
a wild ride. What are your favorite things to do
on TikTok? Like, what are the things that you have seen,
you have done that give you that Oh, yes, that's
gonna be a great feeling, the one that Alicia has
like five times a day. I wish um. I think
(20:08):
like the ones that I love are generally not the
ones that go viral unfortunately. Yes, that's very true, right,
Like the videos that I love to make are usually
the ones to get like less than a thousand views.
But the videos that I do off the cuff, like
I wake up, I have no makeup on, I barely
call my hair, you know, are the ones that get
ten thousand views. And you know that's what everyone remembers me,
(20:31):
Like how I look um, But I love talking about
books that I am absolutely obsessing over and the stuff
that I feel like take a lot of my energy
but I think are important are actually the ones to
end up get the most views, which are like right now,
there's a conversation about like do we remove like the
(20:51):
Clinch cover like, because people are unpacking their own internalized misogyny,
and they are are realizing things about them selves and
saying it online without taking a pause and realizing what
the impact of what they're saying, Like saying half naked
individuals on covers is cringe. May also like speak more
(21:11):
about where you are in your journey than it does
about your taste in romance. And so you know, that's
that's something that a lot of people are addressing right
now on book talk, but I'm I also addressed. I
want to ask you, Nisha, what are some of your
very favorite book talk accounts. Oh that's a great question. Okay,
So bookworm Bullet who um is really a champion for
(21:37):
South Asian romance. Another person who I absolutely love. Her
name is Sandina and she does these incredible video deep dives.
She's right now getting her masters in psychology. So the
way that she analyzes romance is really interesting. Of course,
the two creators of book Talk who actually had kind
(21:59):
of identified the tag and started creating books videos, and
that is Kate's books and then the other one is
Aymon's books. Those are definitely, I think some of my
favorite accounts. Thank you, and before we wrap up, please
tell us your TikTok user names so people can follow you.
(22:21):
You can find me at Nisha Wrights w R I
t e S, which is the same on all of
my social media accounts. Thank you so much for joining us, Nisha,
it has been absolutely delightful. Absolutely Alicia. I think I
could talk to Nisha about TikTok with you for hours
and hours and never get bored. Well, you know what
(22:43):
you can do at my wedding is toxic Naha. It's
gonna be a long way. You're gonna be there. It's
I'm r s V ping for both of you right now.
Literally did I literally opened the invisation and filled it out.
I don't screw around with rs V. Get very attentive
to them. I could talk to Nisha about TikTok and
(23:05):
books for hours, like this could be a four hour
show and I would be super on board for it,
happy as a clam. Yep, she's fantastic. But in all
things tradition, we do need to love to go, and
I have I have to love to come. You have
to alright, go for it. So the first one is
what you said, don't be afraid to be cringe e.
This is the intersection of book people and theater kids.
(23:27):
Just let it out, Just let it all out. Yep.
The other thing, I'm going to be a little bit
weird and nerdy because I think the nerd element needs
to be explored. Carl Sagan once said, we have traveled
this way before, and there is much to be learned.
We have traveled through all of these elements of promotion
and social media and new ways of talking about books,
and yet we are still exploring the same issues of
(23:48):
identity and authenticity. And that is both wonderful and a
little discouraging. But I'm focusing on a wonderful We would
love to hear about your favorite book talk accounts or
TikTok accounts. You can emails that love stark daily at
frolictop Media, or you know what, just messages personally. I mean,
We're happy to look these up on our road too,
(24:08):
and we would love to hear from you. And if
you're curious about book talk, you can find Nisha at
Nsha Writes and Alicia where can people find you? On
the TikTok Oh? Yeah, you can find me at the
Real Alicia Rye because Alicia Rye Writes was already taken.
How dare? How dare? How dare? Thank you so much
(24:28):
for joining us today and come back from one more
amazing episode all about book talk. If you are looking
for more of me, Sarah, you can find me at
Smart Bitches, trashy books dot com. I'm at Smart Bitches
just about everywhere and on your podcatcher at smart Podcast
Trashy Books. You can find me Alicia on TikTok at
the Real Alicia Rye or on Instagram at Alicia Rye
(24:51):
Writes or on Twitter at Alicia ray I also have
a website, Alicia ry dot com, and you can find
me and Kai together on our new YouTube channel, The
Happy Place. Our researcher is Jesse Epstein, our editor is
Jen Jacobs. We are produced by Abigail Steckler and Little
Scorpion Studios, with executive producer Frolic Media. This is an
(25:11):
I Heart radio podcast. Have a very happily ever actor today.
I'm in love with the same, I'm in love with you.
(25:34):
I'm in love with you. What's your favorite book? Talk?
Do you have a favorite channel? Is it a channel?
Is it? What? Is it? Yeah? Is it? Is it
a channel? Is it? Is it a screen? Nit? What
the is the right word? Fuck? I'm get off my lawn.
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