July 7, 2022 • 29 mins
It’s day two of our relationship experiment – and today we are putting a married couple to the test. Jen and Jessy have agreed to participate in our study today, to figure out how well they can guess what the other is thinking. To help us understand the psychology behind their date, we are welcoming licensed therapist Tess Brigham, MFT, to help facilitate our experiment today, whose work has been featured in The New York Times, Forbes, and the Huffington Post. This test is going to be one for the textbooks!
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View episode transcript here: https://otter.ai/u/KjdYZMBfIxQvc25jjbh2fcSubVA
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Yeah, if you think back to school, We've all conducted
plenty of experiments during lab science, but have you ever
put love to the test. I'm Sarah Wendell. I'm Alicia r.
I welcome to Love Struck Daily, where we discuss all
things loved every week. I'm in love with that, Jesus,
(00:33):
I'm in love with you, Sarah is how good are
you at ending conversations? Very are you? I'm terrible at it?
Will you teach me your secrets? I don't know how
to end a single conversation. I'll talk to somebody forever. Okay,
(00:54):
So this is probably the whitest thing I will say,
because we I saw a New Yorker cartoon once that
was some dude saying, this conversation isn't gonna end itself,
And because I talked to a lot of people in
my family and my family family circle who like a
really good on ramp to a conversation, even if the
(01:14):
actual reason you're talking to them is one question and
one answer. They love a real good long on ramp
and a real good laff ramp, and I have so
little patience for that. I'm like, Okay, yeah, great, thanks
very much. We'll talk soon by I gotta go, or
or I used to have a signal. When Adam got
stuck on the phone, he would signal me and I'd
(01:35):
be like, Adam, I really need your help. I'm really sorry. Yeah,
I I need I need people like that, like I
need people to get me out of things, because I
I mentioned before, I have a d h G. And
when I'm not interested in a conversation, I am in
physical pain. It hurts me to stand there and listen
any further. And so but I don't know how to
get out of things politely. So when I was young,
(01:57):
what I used to do, when it was very impolite,
I would just like I'm done now and walk away.
And I was told that that was not an appropriate
way to end any conversation with someone you want to
be friends with. And I remember one time I was
on a first date and the guy was like talking, talking, talking,
and it had been like three hours, and I was miserable,
(02:17):
like ready to get out, and I got a flash
flood warning on my phone, and so I looked at
it and I was like, thank God, and I said,
I have to go. It's gonna flood. And I walked out.
But that was the time that a flash flood warning
saved my life. So yeah, I am. I am not
good at it, but I am trying to learn how
to just gracefully be like, that was a lovely conversation. Goodbye,
(02:39):
it was so lovely to meet you. My favorite has
always been the number of Southern women I know who said, well,
I'm going to let you go. Oh I do love. Yeah,
that is very graceful. I think the I think the
accent helps that though, like where you can be like, oh,
thank you for letting me go. Yeah, it's very graceful. Well,
the asking when a conversation should end is harrowing, but
(03:02):
then think about whether the other person wants the conversation
to end nikes. Yeah, it's it's very hard to know
what another person is thinking. And we are talking and
thinking about this this week. We are discussing the Harvard
study on this very subject. It is Harvard Study Do
(03:22):
Conversations and When People Want them to? By Adam Mastroni,
Daniel Gilbert Gascooney, and Timitthy Wilson. And during this experiment,
the researchers paired up to two strangers for forty five
minute conversations and then spoke to them individually about their
thoughts on the process, and the study found that only
two percent of the conversations ended when both participants wanted to.
(03:42):
So today we are going to adapt this experiment for
Love Strock, which means we aren't running conversations, we're running dates.
And today we're actually running a date between a married
couple who are very near and deared our hearts and
probably familiar to many of our listeners, Jen, who is
our editor, fantastic editor and makes us sound wonderful. Hi,
(04:05):
Jen and her husband Jessie. We are also welcoming Test Brigham,
who is the NBC named the Millennial Therapist due to
her fifteen years of experience helping young people find their
purpose and create confidence, and she's going to help us today.
She is the author of Like Now, a radically practical
guide to Liking your twenties, and is the creator of
(04:26):
the True You Coaching Corps series. Her work has been
featured in The New York Times, Forbes, and the Huffington's Post.
I mean, what a great what a great person to
help us facilitate this conversation today. Welcome Test. Thank you
so much for joining us. We really appreciate it. Thank
(04:47):
you for having me. You've been coined by CNBC as
the Millennial Therapist. Thank you, we need it. UM really
appreciate that. And you have about fifteen years of experience
help young people find their purpose and create confidence, which
I love. Can you tell us a little bit more
about your credentials and what you do. Sure? I am
(05:07):
a license psychotherapist and I'm a board certified coach, so
I you know, I take both of these modalities and
I pushed them together to help my clients not only
gain insight into why they're doing what they're doing, but
also the great thing about coaching is it's about action. Right.
If you don't change things in your everyday life day
and day out, nothing in your life is going to change.
(05:31):
And today joining Tests, we also have a Jen and Jesse.
Jen is of course our fabulous editor you here in
our credits, and of course she and Jesse have already
been on our show talking about their love story. So
very excited to welcome them both back. Thank you for
having us, Thank you. And Tests is going to basically
(05:53):
run a little uh. I don't want to call it
a test, uh, just just a fun time here Jenn
and Jess. Yes, yeah, and we're going to have them talking.
Tess is going to jump in and we're gonna see
what happens. So Tess, would you like to take over? Sure?
So Jen and Jesse are married, and can you tell
(06:16):
me how long you've been married? Eight years A long time.
We've been together since high school. Okay, so unlike a
first date. You both know a lot about each other already,
and I've had millions of conversations. But we would like
to just hear a very natural conversation between as natural
as it can get between the two of you for
the next ten fifteen minutes. And you know, you can
(06:40):
go back, you can pick whatever topic. But if you
want to go back to a really happy memory or
a memory of when the two of you first met,
or even your first date, we'd love to hear it.
I mean, the first time we met, it was at
(07:01):
our friend Hannah's house, but I feel like our real
first date was the movies, when we went to go
see Juno. Yeah it was that Christmas, because you and
Hannah went to see a movie every Christmas. Yeah. My.
The biggest thing I remember from that, which you probably
know exactly what it is, is when you were walking
next to me, and Jared was like trying to go
(07:25):
to you into holding my hand, so he literally kicked
you nervous and then you held my hand to jeans again. Huh.
So I don't think I'll ever forget that is very cute,
but I mean I was nervous too. I don't think
i'd ever really been on a like regular date before that.
(07:48):
Do you You've been on like a semithing Yeah, like
once or twice, like a like to see a movie
and stuff, but like nothing serious. And then it wasn't
long after that that we decided to make it official,
so to speak, the same the same day I was
going to ask you, you asked me. I do like
(08:11):
to control the moment. Apparently it was fine. Takes the
pressure off of me. And were you already driving at
that point? I forget? Did you have a license when
we met? Yeah? I must have because I was seventeen. Okay, yeah,
because I do remember you picking me up in the van.
Oh yeez. That like to me, I feel like the
(08:34):
dash had this weird thing where it made like a
clicking sound that I was like, he's not concerned about it.
I guess I'm not. Was that the one that had
That must have been the van that had a little
button for the horn, because the horn was broken on
the steering wheel. I do because the one time I
got pulled over in college, the cop was like, that's
(08:54):
not going to shoot missiles or something, is it? Because
it was it was just a little button next to
the steering wheel. Why it in I can like remember
being out and like getting into the car for the
first time with you and it just being like, this
is weird, but like in a good way. I remember
one of the times I left after you know, we
were hanging out there. You told me to drive safe
(09:16):
and I was like, I feel like no one's ever
told me like i'd like to see you again. Yeah.
I don't mean that in as sad a way as
that sounds, but it was it was sweet. I was like, Oh,
she cares if I, you know, get in a car
crash man low bar for me, huh. Because the two
(09:44):
of you have been together so long, do you go
back and reminisce about these things when something comes up,
or if like we're hanging out with friends and something
about our past comes up. But I don't think we've
ever like made an effort to talk about it. Yeah,
are you you're both working at home, okay, so you
(10:05):
see each other all day every day, so okay, and
we still like each other. What was the last thing
that you thought about? Was it that I this sounds awful?
Was it that I sort of dismissed your religion and
now we're going to take a quick break, but don't
go anywhere because the story will continue. Was it that
(10:37):
I sort of dismissed your religion that sounds so much
worse than it is. I think so, I feel like
that's the actual last thing that we had, Like I'm upset. Yeah,
we don't really fight off. Yeah, it was like some
show someone was talking about their thing and I kind
(10:58):
of dismissed it as silly, and then Jen said something like,
oh yeah, like yours is any less silly, which, like
I get, I get where she was coming from, but
it did her at the time. I could have approached
it a little better, like, you know, don't challenge others
beliefs when yours can also be looked at the same way.
So I could tell he was upset, but I didn't
(11:19):
want to say anything right away. I think that evening
he was like he said this thing and it really
bothered me. And I was like, I didn't even cross
my mind that that would be like problematic. But now,
but thinking back on it, I was like, I see
where you're coming from. Yes, I probably should approach a
little differently, not said the thing I was exactly thinking.
(11:43):
So is that usually how stuff goes when something bothers you.
You don't react right away, You think about it and
then go back to the person. That's pretty common. Yeah,
we have opposite styles. I over communicate and I want
to I want to like talk it out when there's
something going wrong, and Jesse needs to like sit with
himself and like observe within and then talk about it
(12:07):
like I need the time to be able to articulate.
We've gotten way better at it, but overall we've always
had pretty good communication too. Thankfully. We're kind of a
boring couple honestly, but in the best way. We always
joke with our friends that were one person. So I
want to ask each of you individual questions. So let's
(12:29):
start with Jen. And Jesse's going to take his headphones
off so he's not part of this discussion. So Jen's
answers don't influence Jesse in any way, shape or form, so,
and these can be very quick. On a scale of
one to ten, how much did you enjoy the conversation?
I would give it an eight, okay. And with that
(12:50):
same scale, how would you perceive Jesse enjoy the conversation? Um?
Probably a seven? All right? So was there a point
in the converse station where you felt like you were
ready for the conversation to end? Um? No? And this
probably comes from being in a very long term relationship.
But I could talk to him like all day. Do
(13:14):
you have any idea what do you think Jesse wanted?
Do you think that he wanted to keep the conversation
going or stop it at any point? He probably would
be done sooner than me because he isn't as much
of a talker. But I think if we were continuing
to like reminisce, he would indulge me and enjoy it.
All right, So we're gonna switch it up, Jesse, come back,
(13:38):
jen is taking off her Okay, all right, Jesse, so
very quickly, and you don't have to share whatever you'd like.
But um, how much did you enjoy this conversation? Very
very much. I like talking to my wife. That's why
I'm married her. And then on a scale of one
to ten, tend being the high, how how much did
(14:01):
you enjoy the conversation nine? And how much? And the
same scale, how much do you think Jen enjoyed the conversation?
Nine point five? Okay? So overall, how do you think
the conversation went? Mostly good? I feel like we we
never are like given a prompt and just like told
(14:24):
to start talking about it, So it was a little
different for us. But you know, once we knew what
we were talking about, I think it went fine. Is
there a point in the conversation where you felt like
you were ready for the conversation to end only a
little bit? Are? I feel like the first date story,
there's not like too much to it. So so at
(14:46):
the end of it was like, well, yeah, that's that's it,
that's what happens. So after the first date conversation, the
you feel like the conversation could end right there? Yeah?
I think so we covered we covered what we needed
to got it. Okay. So do you have any idea
(15:06):
of when you think if there was a point at
which you think she wanted to end the conversation. Probably not.
I feel like she's more talkative than me in general,
like I do more more of the listening and she
does more of the talking, so I feel like she's
happy coming up with new topics. So I think she
(15:27):
was probably fine with it. Those are all the questions
Jen come back. So obviously there's a reason why you've
been together for thirteen years, and you could hear it
and see it very clearly, the like natural rhythm and
flow of the way in which you communicate with each other.
I think what's really important with couples is there's a
(15:49):
lot of awareness, awareness of you know, this is sort
of this is how she communicates, this is how he communicates.
You know, this is this is what I know. Jen,
When you mentioned like, oh, he only needs some time
and space, that's that's the empathy respecting your partner's way
about like thinking. So even though maybe you want to
talk about it right away, that maybe that's not always
(16:10):
the best for the conversation. So overall, you both you
both enjoyed it. You know, you obviously want to keep
talking to each other, and you definitely say that Jen's
the more talkative one and that maybe Jesse wanted to
end it a little bit earlier than Jen would and
the one to tend. I thought was really interesting because
(16:33):
Jen's numbers were in terms of how much she enjoyed
it was eight and how much Jesse enjoyed it was
seven and Jesse's was nine and then nine point five.
So you weren't It wasn't one of you didn't say two,
So I mean you're not. We're both right that Jen
(16:56):
probably enjoyed it more. So I think that's it's very
very interesting. And like I said before, it's obvious why
the two of you have been together for a long time,
and like, of course I know that we're married, but
it's always nice to hear that he wants to keep
talking to me. This is fun. So thank you so much.
(17:18):
Thank you, we'll test that was delightful. Thank you so
much for facilitating that. They are so cute, Yes, they
are so What what does your sort of general takeaway
listening to them and asking them questions? What did you
what did you take from that? Well, you know, you
could see very clearly how natural they were finishing each
(17:40):
other's sentences, you know, laughing about the same things. These
memories that they have that are set in their minds
are very very clear. The therapist and to me of course,
had to ask about like when do you fight and
how did you what does that look like? Because I
could imagine that the two of them couldn't possibly be
this happy, like this couldn't be every conversation in their lives.
(18:02):
But you can see that they've both spent a lot
of time and energy working on their communication skills because
they met so early. They grew up together, right, you know,
usually we don't have those kinds of tools at sixteen, seventeen,
eighteen years old. But the fact that they're able to
(18:25):
now as adults keep communicating and want to keep communicating,
and I think any couple after the pandemic still want
to talk to each other is always a good sign
that have been trapped on the house together. I met
my fancy about a month before the pandemic started, and
that's sort of our go to, like if we could
survive a pandemic and still want to see each other,
(18:47):
I think I think we're good because we only saw
each other for so very long. Uh. Was there anything
that's like surprised you in there when they you know,
any any feedback that they gave you that that might
be three for a loop or anything like that. Yes,
hold type we'll be right back. I think that what
(19:21):
was really interesting is is that he had this very
firm memory of she told me to drive safely, and
that this has been in his mind this entire time,
and maybe he said that to her before they've had
this conversation before. But it's it's a very interesting thing
because it sounds like it really encapsulates the relationship, and
it encapsulates sort of like this, this person cared about me.
(19:43):
No one had ever asked that of me before. Empathy
is such it's the superhuman tool that everybody needs to
cultivate and work on, which is really learning how to
be present with the other person and to be able
to put yourself in their shoes for just a moment
or two. You just because you're putting yourself in someone
(20:04):
else's shoes doesn't mean you're agreeing with them. So you
saw that in the conversation, right, Jen had made a
comment about his religion and so but she was able
to go back to him when he approached her and saying,
you know what, I'm sorry, you're right. So even though
they have these different ideas of religion and different beliefs systems,
(20:25):
when it comes to that, she could easily say yeah,
you're right. The way in which I dismissed you in
that moment in time could be I can imagine, was
very very hurtful. She didn't agree with him, She's not
she's not you know, converting, she's just simply being present
and saying, you know what I own, that you're right.
I can see how that would bother you. And I
(20:46):
think that that's the part that's really important, because it's
the couples have to really understand. You know, where the
other person is coming from, why they may be feeling
the way they can fee you know, why they're feeling
what they they're feeling, and even if maybe it's not
how you would ever feel about it, it's the willingness
(21:06):
to say, Okay, let me give me a second, let
me really try to get and see that from your perspective.
But I think it's interesting because they're this couple that's
been together for a long time. You know, when you
think about first dates, right, and you think about when
you're going into a first date or when you're first
meeting someone you know nothing about them, right, it's all fresh,
like everything is fresh and new, and so with Jesse
(21:30):
and Jen, you know, they went into this conversation understanding
and knowing who the other person is. And so, what
I tell people, especially my clients, when they're going to
meet someone new or on a date, it's like, let
go of You've got to walk into this date thinking
I'm just gonna have this really interesting conversation with this
new person that I'm meeting. Every the people walk into
(21:52):
date dating situations or cocktail parties or networking events, they
walk into them with just this huge agenda or or
fears around like no one's gonna want to talk to me,
or this person is going to be terrible, or oh
they're gonna be great, They're gonna be the love of
my life. And the best way to walk into difficult
conversations new conversations, crucial conversations is taking a little time
(22:17):
before you get there to be present, be present with yourself,
Be present and like how am I feeling right now?
Because that is what is going to help your conversational skills.
It's what's going to help you listen better, is to
get present and really figure out, I'm coming on this date.
I don't know who this person is or if I'm
(22:38):
gonna like them or not, but I'm going to have
a good conversation with this stranger. There is no algorithm
to know why two people are going to be right
for each other. Right, it's not until two people get
in the exact same room at the exact same time
that that you know is there some they're there. I
think that anybody, I mean, we can all have a
(22:58):
really good conversation shan over the phone or via text
with anybody. We all have at least if you're a
certain age, you'll have at least our worth of material
for your life. Right, this is where I grew up,
this is where I went to college. These are my questions.
So people a lot of times see that oh, we
you know, we grew up in the same way, or
we're you know, we both like dogs, or we both
(23:20):
you know, like the snowboard or whatever. It is like, oh,
we're so compatible. But it's not until you get into
a room with someone and you feel something. There's gotta
be there's gotta be sparks, there's gotta be something, or
there's gotta be at least the inkling of something of like,
oh this is really good. And you don't know that
until you're in the same room with somewhere. Absolutely. I
(23:43):
thought it was interesting when you were just to go
back to jenn and Jesse for a minute where you
noted that Jesse likes to take a beat to talk
about things, And I think that's true for a lot
of relationships where you have like a mismatch where somebody
wants to jump in right away and somebody needs like, okay,
I need to date to get away. How do you
navigate that sort of situation? Like what is a couple
(24:04):
to do? Do they meet somewhere in the middle, do
they take a beat? Do they wait for the other
like the more hesitant partner? What's what's the best approach? Yeah,
I think a lot of it is the couple and
their dynamics, But I do I think that it's trying
to it's trying to find somewhere in the middle that
satisfies both people and maybe they're you know, it's neither
(24:27):
their first choice, but it's it's a good in between.
State the person who wants to talk about it right
away that that person is a bit more anxious, and
what the other person who needs a beat really you
just need to allow, you know, that anxious person needs
some sort of level of reassurance that you know, I'm
(24:47):
I'm you know, not harboring a grudge or you know.
I so that just to understand a little bit of
this is why I need to take this beat. You know,
I'm not I'm not angry at you, or I'm not this,
I'm not that. I just need to take it in
and process it. So if you reassure the anxious one
you're going to be okay, you know, then that should
(25:09):
help you create some distance. What happens usually is is
that the person who wants distance just runs in the
opposite direction and doesn't stay long enough to explain themselves.
And so I think that Jenn mentioned this that she's
an over communicator, and you know, and over communication is
better than no communication. You know, someone telling you too
(25:31):
many things is sometimes better than nothing. So knowing what
it is that the person wants ahead of time, just
like everyone likes to have an agenda before a meeting,
Like people want to know what's going to happen before
it's gonna happen, because that's when our anxiety gets triggered.
When we when we don't have all the facts, our
brains fill in the gaps. And because we're human, beings
(25:53):
and we're designed for survival. We tend to fill in
the gaps with negativity, with fears, with the worst case scenario. Yeah,
that's that's a great larger takeaway. I think, what is
your best piece of advice for somebody who's maybe going
about to go out on their first date with someone
they're worried about the conversation flowing. What's your best number
(26:14):
one piece of advice for them? Spend a little time
before the date. I would I do think that people
who are who practice some sort of meditation or mindfulness,
and I know people here this constantly in insert I
roll here, but it is really one of the best
ways to learn how to not only manage your anxiety,
(26:36):
but also to be present in the present moment. And
the more that you can be present in the present moment,
the more that you're going to enjoy the conversation. So
I would say, you know, practice some mindfulness, be present,
maybe listen to a meditation, and then remind yourself, this
does not need to be the love of my life.
(26:57):
This does not need to be life changing. That is
that I am meeting this new and interesting person, and
my goal is to have a new, interesting conversation with
this stranger and whatever happens happens. And Test, where can
people find you if they're looking for you on the internet. Sure,
so just go to my website www dot test Brigham
(27:19):
Coaching dot com. I have everything, they're my services, what
I do, and I have programs and books and lots
of different stuff. So just go to the website. Awesome,
thank you so much for joining us today, and thank
you extremely educational and always you know, a treat to have.
Jenn and Jesse too, So thank you for that. Yes, Sarah,
(27:42):
that was such an educational conversation. And I could listen
to Jenn and Jesse wherever. They are my favorite boring couple,
one of my favorite board girls. I love walking down
their memory lane. It is very scenic, it is very comfortable,
there's no insects. It's very lovely. Let's walk down their
memory lane anytime forever. And Test was was fantastic as
(28:05):
well and gave some great advice. So what is your
love to go for our listeners today? Well, Test said
something that I've never heard before. When you don't have
all the facts, your brain fills in the gaps. Oh
my yes, does my brain do that? Yes. And when
you're thinking about whether or not someone likes you or
wants to keep talking to you and you don't know,
(28:25):
it's it's a big internal narrative that you're going to construct. Yes,
they do know, they don't. I don't know. Why don't
I know? That's a lot. So Yeah, when you don't
have all the facts, your brain fills in the gaps. Yep,
we would like to know what you're thinking. Please email
us at loves Stark Daily had Frolly Got Media. If
you have a love story to share you want to
talk to us, we would love to hear your memory lane.
(28:46):
You can follow us on Instagram and Twitter at love
Stark Daily. If you would send us a review, we
would absolutely love it. Our researcher is Jesse Epstein. Our
editor is Jen Jacobs. We are produced by Abigail Steckler
and Little Scorpions to Studios with executive producer Frolic Media.
This is an I Heart Radio podcast. But until then,
we wish you a very conversational happily ever after. I'm
(29:12):
in love with that, ain't say to you. That's kind
of say I'm in love with you. I'm in love
with you
Yeah, if you think back to school, We've all conducted
plenty of experiments during lab science, but have you ever
put love to the test. I'm Sarah Wendell. I'm Alicia r.
I welcome to Love Struck Daily, where we discuss all
things loved every week. I'm in love with that, Jesus,
(00:33):
I'm in love with you, Sarah is how good are
you at ending conversations? Very are you? I'm terrible at it?
Will you teach me your secrets? I don't know how
to end a single conversation. I'll talk to somebody forever. Okay,
(00:54):
So this is probably the whitest thing I will say,
because we I saw a New Yorker cartoon once that
was some dude saying, this conversation isn't gonna end itself,
And because I talked to a lot of people in
my family and my family family circle who like a
really good on ramp to a conversation, even if the
(01:14):
actual reason you're talking to them is one question and
one answer. They love a real good long on ramp
and a real good laff ramp, and I have so
little patience for that. I'm like, Okay, yeah, great, thanks
very much. We'll talk soon by I gotta go, or
or I used to have a signal. When Adam got
stuck on the phone, he would signal me and I'd
(01:35):
be like, Adam, I really need your help. I'm really sorry. Yeah,
I I need I need people like that, like I
need people to get me out of things, because I
I mentioned before, I have a d h G. And
when I'm not interested in a conversation, I am in
physical pain. It hurts me to stand there and listen
any further. And so but I don't know how to
get out of things politely. So when I was young,
(01:57):
what I used to do, when it was very impolite,
I would just like I'm done now and walk away.
And I was told that that was not an appropriate
way to end any conversation with someone you want to
be friends with. And I remember one time I was
on a first date and the guy was like talking, talking, talking,
and it had been like three hours, and I was miserable,
(02:17):
like ready to get out, and I got a flash
flood warning on my phone, and so I looked at
it and I was like, thank God, and I said,
I have to go. It's gonna flood. And I walked out.
But that was the time that a flash flood warning
saved my life. So yeah, I am. I am not
good at it, but I am trying to learn how
to just gracefully be like, that was a lovely conversation. Goodbye,
(02:39):
it was so lovely to meet you. My favorite has
always been the number of Southern women I know who said, well,
I'm going to let you go. Oh I do love. Yeah,
that is very graceful. I think the I think the
accent helps that though, like where you can be like, oh,
thank you for letting me go. Yeah, it's very graceful. Well,
the asking when a conversation should end is harrowing, but
(03:02):
then think about whether the other person wants the conversation
to end nikes. Yeah, it's it's very hard to know
what another person is thinking. And we are talking and
thinking about this this week. We are discussing the Harvard
study on this very subject. It is Harvard Study Do
(03:22):
Conversations and When People Want them to? By Adam Mastroni,
Daniel Gilbert Gascooney, and Timitthy Wilson. And during this experiment,
the researchers paired up to two strangers for forty five
minute conversations and then spoke to them individually about their
thoughts on the process, and the study found that only
two percent of the conversations ended when both participants wanted to.
(03:42):
So today we are going to adapt this experiment for
Love Strock, which means we aren't running conversations, we're running dates.
And today we're actually running a date between a married
couple who are very near and deared our hearts and
probably familiar to many of our listeners, Jen, who is
our editor, fantastic editor and makes us sound wonderful. Hi,
(04:05):
Jen and her husband Jessie. We are also welcoming Test Brigham,
who is the NBC named the Millennial Therapist due to
her fifteen years of experience helping young people find their
purpose and create confidence, and she's going to help us today.
She is the author of Like Now, a radically practical
guide to Liking your twenties, and is the creator of
(04:26):
the True You Coaching Corps series. Her work has been
featured in The New York Times, Forbes, and the Huffington's Post.
I mean, what a great what a great person to
help us facilitate this conversation today. Welcome Test. Thank you
so much for joining us. We really appreciate it. Thank
(04:47):
you for having me. You've been coined by CNBC as
the Millennial Therapist. Thank you, we need it. UM really
appreciate that. And you have about fifteen years of experience
help young people find their purpose and create confidence, which
I love. Can you tell us a little bit more
about your credentials and what you do. Sure? I am
(05:07):
a license psychotherapist and I'm a board certified coach, so
I you know, I take both of these modalities and
I pushed them together to help my clients not only
gain insight into why they're doing what they're doing, but
also the great thing about coaching is it's about action. Right.
If you don't change things in your everyday life day
and day out, nothing in your life is going to change.
(05:31):
And today joining Tests, we also have a Jen and Jesse.
Jen is of course our fabulous editor you here in
our credits, and of course she and Jesse have already
been on our show talking about their love story. So
very excited to welcome them both back. Thank you for
having us, Thank you. And Tests is going to basically
(05:53):
run a little uh. I don't want to call it
a test, uh, just just a fun time here Jenn
and Jess. Yes, yeah, and we're going to have them talking.
Tess is going to jump in and we're gonna see
what happens. So Tess, would you like to take over? Sure?
So Jen and Jesse are married, and can you tell
(06:16):
me how long you've been married? Eight years A long time.
We've been together since high school. Okay, so unlike a
first date. You both know a lot about each other already,
and I've had millions of conversations. But we would like
to just hear a very natural conversation between as natural
as it can get between the two of you for
the next ten fifteen minutes. And you know, you can
(06:40):
go back, you can pick whatever topic. But if you
want to go back to a really happy memory or
a memory of when the two of you first met,
or even your first date, we'd love to hear it.
I mean, the first time we met, it was at
(07:01):
our friend Hannah's house, but I feel like our real
first date was the movies, when we went to go
see Juno. Yeah it was that Christmas, because you and
Hannah went to see a movie every Christmas. Yeah. My.
The biggest thing I remember from that, which you probably
know exactly what it is, is when you were walking
next to me, and Jared was like trying to go
(07:25):
to you into holding my hand, so he literally kicked
you nervous and then you held my hand to jeans again. Huh.
So I don't think I'll ever forget that is very cute,
but I mean I was nervous too. I don't think
i'd ever really been on a like regular date before that.
(07:48):
Do you You've been on like a semithing Yeah, like
once or twice, like a like to see a movie
and stuff, but like nothing serious. And then it wasn't
long after that that we decided to make it official,
so to speak, the same the same day I was
going to ask you, you asked me. I do like
(08:11):
to control the moment. Apparently it was fine. Takes the
pressure off of me. And were you already driving at
that point? I forget? Did you have a license when
we met? Yeah? I must have because I was seventeen. Okay, yeah,
because I do remember you picking me up in the van.
Oh yeez. That like to me, I feel like the
(08:34):
dash had this weird thing where it made like a
clicking sound that I was like, he's not concerned about it.
I guess I'm not. Was that the one that had
That must have been the van that had a little
button for the horn, because the horn was broken on
the steering wheel. I do because the one time I
got pulled over in college, the cop was like, that's
(08:54):
not going to shoot missiles or something, is it? Because
it was it was just a little button next to
the steering wheel. Why it in I can like remember
being out and like getting into the car for the
first time with you and it just being like, this
is weird, but like in a good way. I remember
one of the times I left after you know, we
were hanging out there. You told me to drive safe
(09:16):
and I was like, I feel like no one's ever
told me like i'd like to see you again. Yeah.
I don't mean that in as sad a way as
that sounds, but it was it was sweet. I was like, Oh,
she cares if I, you know, get in a car
crash man low bar for me, huh. Because the two
(09:44):
of you have been together so long, do you go
back and reminisce about these things when something comes up,
or if like we're hanging out with friends and something
about our past comes up. But I don't think we've
ever like made an effort to talk about it. Yeah,
are you you're both working at home, okay, so you
(10:05):
see each other all day every day, so okay, and
we still like each other. What was the last thing
that you thought about? Was it that I this sounds awful?
Was it that I sort of dismissed your religion and
now we're going to take a quick break, but don't
go anywhere because the story will continue. Was it that
(10:37):
I sort of dismissed your religion that sounds so much
worse than it is. I think so, I feel like
that's the actual last thing that we had, Like I'm upset. Yeah,
we don't really fight off. Yeah, it was like some
show someone was talking about their thing and I kind
(10:58):
of dismissed it as silly, and then Jen said something like,
oh yeah, like yours is any less silly, which, like
I get, I get where she was coming from, but
it did her at the time. I could have approached
it a little better, like, you know, don't challenge others
beliefs when yours can also be looked at the same way.
So I could tell he was upset, but I didn't
(11:19):
want to say anything right away. I think that evening
he was like he said this thing and it really
bothered me. And I was like, I didn't even cross
my mind that that would be like problematic. But now,
but thinking back on it, I was like, I see
where you're coming from. Yes, I probably should approach a
little differently, not said the thing I was exactly thinking.
(11:43):
So is that usually how stuff goes when something bothers you.
You don't react right away, You think about it and
then go back to the person. That's pretty common. Yeah,
we have opposite styles. I over communicate and I want
to I want to like talk it out when there's
something going wrong, and Jesse needs to like sit with
himself and like observe within and then talk about it
(12:07):
like I need the time to be able to articulate.
We've gotten way better at it, but overall we've always
had pretty good communication too. Thankfully. We're kind of a
boring couple honestly, but in the best way. We always
joke with our friends that were one person. So I
want to ask each of you individual questions. So let's
(12:29):
start with Jen. And Jesse's going to take his headphones
off so he's not part of this discussion. So Jen's
answers don't influence Jesse in any way, shape or form, so,
and these can be very quick. On a scale of
one to ten, how much did you enjoy the conversation?
I would give it an eight, okay. And with that
(12:50):
same scale, how would you perceive Jesse enjoy the conversation? Um?
Probably a seven? All right? So was there a point
in the converse station where you felt like you were
ready for the conversation to end? Um? No? And this
probably comes from being in a very long term relationship.
But I could talk to him like all day. Do
(13:14):
you have any idea what do you think Jesse wanted?
Do you think that he wanted to keep the conversation
going or stop it at any point? He probably would
be done sooner than me because he isn't as much
of a talker. But I think if we were continuing
to like reminisce, he would indulge me and enjoy it.
All right, So we're gonna switch it up, Jesse, come back,
(13:38):
jen is taking off her Okay, all right, Jesse, so
very quickly, and you don't have to share whatever you'd like.
But um, how much did you enjoy this conversation? Very
very much. I like talking to my wife. That's why
I'm married her. And then on a scale of one
to ten, tend being the high, how how much did
(14:01):
you enjoy the conversation nine? And how much? And the
same scale, how much do you think Jen enjoyed the conversation?
Nine point five? Okay? So overall, how do you think
the conversation went? Mostly good? I feel like we we
never are like given a prompt and just like told
(14:24):
to start talking about it, So it was a little
different for us. But you know, once we knew what
we were talking about, I think it went fine. Is
there a point in the conversation where you felt like
you were ready for the conversation to end only a
little bit? Are? I feel like the first date story,
there's not like too much to it. So so at
(14:46):
the end of it was like, well, yeah, that's that's it,
that's what happens. So after the first date conversation, the
you feel like the conversation could end right there? Yeah?
I think so we covered we covered what we needed
to got it. Okay. So do you have any idea
(15:06):
of when you think if there was a point at
which you think she wanted to end the conversation. Probably not.
I feel like she's more talkative than me in general,
like I do more more of the listening and she
does more of the talking, so I feel like she's
happy coming up with new topics. So I think she
(15:27):
was probably fine with it. Those are all the questions
Jen come back. So obviously there's a reason why you've
been together for thirteen years, and you could hear it
and see it very clearly, the like natural rhythm and
flow of the way in which you communicate with each other.
I think what's really important with couples is there's a
(15:49):
lot of awareness, awareness of you know, this is sort
of this is how she communicates, this is how he communicates.
You know, this is this is what I know. Jen,
When you mentioned like, oh, he only needs some time
and space, that's that's the empathy respecting your partner's way
about like thinking. So even though maybe you want to
talk about it right away, that maybe that's not always
(16:10):
the best for the conversation. So overall, you both you
both enjoyed it. You know, you obviously want to keep
talking to each other, and you definitely say that Jen's
the more talkative one and that maybe Jesse wanted to
end it a little bit earlier than Jen would and
the one to tend. I thought was really interesting because
(16:33):
Jen's numbers were in terms of how much she enjoyed
it was eight and how much Jesse enjoyed it was
seven and Jesse's was nine and then nine point five.
So you weren't It wasn't one of you didn't say two,
So I mean you're not. We're both right that Jen
(16:56):
probably enjoyed it more. So I think that's it's very
very interesting. And like I said before, it's obvious why
the two of you have been together for a long time,
and like, of course I know that we're married, but
it's always nice to hear that he wants to keep
talking to me. This is fun. So thank you so much.
(17:18):
Thank you, we'll test that was delightful. Thank you so
much for facilitating that. They are so cute, Yes, they
are so What what does your sort of general takeaway
listening to them and asking them questions? What did you
what did you take from that? Well, you know, you
could see very clearly how natural they were finishing each
(17:40):
other's sentences, you know, laughing about the same things. These
memories that they have that are set in their minds
are very very clear. The therapist and to me of course,
had to ask about like when do you fight and
how did you what does that look like? Because I
could imagine that the two of them couldn't possibly be
this happy, like this couldn't be every conversation in their lives.
(18:02):
But you can see that they've both spent a lot
of time and energy working on their communication skills because
they met so early. They grew up together, right, you know,
usually we don't have those kinds of tools at sixteen, seventeen,
eighteen years old. But the fact that they're able to
(18:25):
now as adults keep communicating and want to keep communicating,
and I think any couple after the pandemic still want
to talk to each other is always a good sign
that have been trapped on the house together. I met
my fancy about a month before the pandemic started, and
that's sort of our go to, like if we could
survive a pandemic and still want to see each other,
(18:47):
I think I think we're good because we only saw
each other for so very long. Uh. Was there anything
that's like surprised you in there when they you know,
any any feedback that they gave you that that might
be three for a loop or anything like that. Yes,
hold type we'll be right back. I think that what
(19:21):
was really interesting is is that he had this very
firm memory of she told me to drive safely, and
that this has been in his mind this entire time,
and maybe he said that to her before they've had
this conversation before. But it's it's a very interesting thing
because it sounds like it really encapsulates the relationship, and
it encapsulates sort of like this, this person cared about me.
(19:43):
No one had ever asked that of me before. Empathy
is such it's the superhuman tool that everybody needs to
cultivate and work on, which is really learning how to
be present with the other person and to be able
to put yourself in their shoes for just a moment
or two. You just because you're putting yourself in someone
(20:04):
else's shoes doesn't mean you're agreeing with them. So you
saw that in the conversation, right, Jen had made a
comment about his religion and so but she was able
to go back to him when he approached her and saying,
you know what, I'm sorry, you're right. So even though
they have these different ideas of religion and different beliefs systems,
(20:25):
when it comes to that, she could easily say yeah,
you're right. The way in which I dismissed you in
that moment in time could be I can imagine, was
very very hurtful. She didn't agree with him, She's not
she's not you know, converting, she's just simply being present
and saying, you know what I own, that you're right.
I can see how that would bother you. And I
(20:46):
think that that's the part that's really important, because it's
the couples have to really understand. You know, where the
other person is coming from, why they may be feeling
the way they can fee you know, why they're feeling
what they they're feeling, and even if maybe it's not
how you would ever feel about it, it's the willingness
(21:06):
to say, Okay, let me give me a second, let
me really try to get and see that from your perspective.
But I think it's interesting because they're this couple that's
been together for a long time. You know, when you
think about first dates, right, and you think about when
you're going into a first date or when you're first
meeting someone you know nothing about them, right, it's all fresh,
like everything is fresh and new, and so with Jesse
(21:30):
and Jen, you know, they went into this conversation understanding
and knowing who the other person is. And so, what
I tell people, especially my clients, when they're going to
meet someone new or on a date, it's like, let
go of You've got to walk into this date thinking
I'm just gonna have this really interesting conversation with this
new person that I'm meeting. Every the people walk into
(21:52):
date dating situations or cocktail parties or networking events, they
walk into them with just this huge agenda or or
fears around like no one's gonna want to talk to me,
or this person is going to be terrible, or oh
they're gonna be great, They're gonna be the love of
my life. And the best way to walk into difficult
conversations new conversations, crucial conversations is taking a little time
(22:17):
before you get there to be present, be present with yourself,
Be present and like how am I feeling right now?
Because that is what is going to help your conversational skills.
It's what's going to help you listen better, is to
get present and really figure out, I'm coming on this date.
I don't know who this person is or if I'm
(22:38):
gonna like them or not, but I'm going to have
a good conversation with this stranger. There is no algorithm
to know why two people are going to be right
for each other. Right, it's not until two people get
in the exact same room at the exact same time
that that you know is there some they're there. I
think that anybody, I mean, we can all have a
(22:58):
really good conversation shan over the phone or via text
with anybody. We all have at least if you're a
certain age, you'll have at least our worth of material
for your life. Right, this is where I grew up,
this is where I went to college. These are my questions.
So people a lot of times see that oh, we
you know, we grew up in the same way, or
we're you know, we both like dogs, or we both
(23:20):
you know, like the snowboard or whatever. It is like, oh,
we're so compatible. But it's not until you get into
a room with someone and you feel something. There's gotta
be there's gotta be sparks, there's gotta be something, or
there's gotta be at least the inkling of something of like,
oh this is really good. And you don't know that
until you're in the same room with somewhere. Absolutely. I
(23:43):
thought it was interesting when you were just to go
back to jenn and Jesse for a minute where you
noted that Jesse likes to take a beat to talk
about things, And I think that's true for a lot
of relationships where you have like a mismatch where somebody
wants to jump in right away and somebody needs like, okay,
I need to date to get away. How do you
navigate that sort of situation? Like what is a couple
(24:04):
to do? Do they meet somewhere in the middle, do
they take a beat? Do they wait for the other
like the more hesitant partner? What's what's the best approach? Yeah,
I think a lot of it is the couple and
their dynamics, But I do I think that it's trying
to it's trying to find somewhere in the middle that
satisfies both people and maybe they're you know, it's neither
(24:27):
their first choice, but it's it's a good in between.
State the person who wants to talk about it right
away that that person is a bit more anxious, and
what the other person who needs a beat really you
just need to allow, you know, that anxious person needs
some sort of level of reassurance that you know, I'm
(24:47):
I'm you know, not harboring a grudge or you know.
I so that just to understand a little bit of
this is why I need to take this beat. You know,
I'm not I'm not angry at you, or I'm not this,
I'm not that. I just need to take it in
and process it. So if you reassure the anxious one
you're going to be okay, you know, then that should
(25:09):
help you create some distance. What happens usually is is
that the person who wants distance just runs in the
opposite direction and doesn't stay long enough to explain themselves.
And so I think that Jenn mentioned this that she's
an over communicator, and you know, and over communication is
better than no communication. You know, someone telling you too
(25:31):
many things is sometimes better than nothing. So knowing what
it is that the person wants ahead of time, just
like everyone likes to have an agenda before a meeting,
Like people want to know what's going to happen before
it's gonna happen, because that's when our anxiety gets triggered.
When we when we don't have all the facts, our
brains fill in the gaps. And because we're human, beings
(25:53):
and we're designed for survival. We tend to fill in
the gaps with negativity, with fears, with the worst case scenario. Yeah,
that's that's a great larger takeaway. I think, what is
your best piece of advice for somebody who's maybe going
about to go out on their first date with someone
they're worried about the conversation flowing. What's your best number
(26:14):
one piece of advice for them? Spend a little time
before the date. I would I do think that people
who are who practice some sort of meditation or mindfulness,
and I know people here this constantly in insert I
roll here, but it is really one of the best
ways to learn how to not only manage your anxiety,
(26:36):
but also to be present in the present moment. And
the more that you can be present in the present moment,
the more that you're going to enjoy the conversation. So
I would say, you know, practice some mindfulness, be present,
maybe listen to a meditation, and then remind yourself, this
does not need to be the love of my life.
(26:57):
This does not need to be life changing. That is
that I am meeting this new and interesting person, and
my goal is to have a new, interesting conversation with
this stranger and whatever happens happens. And Test, where can
people find you if they're looking for you on the internet. Sure,
so just go to my website www dot test Brigham
(27:19):
Coaching dot com. I have everything, they're my services, what
I do, and I have programs and books and lots
of different stuff. So just go to the website. Awesome,
thank you so much for joining us today, and thank
you extremely educational and always you know, a treat to have.
Jenn and Jesse too, So thank you for that. Yes, Sarah,
(27:42):
that was such an educational conversation. And I could listen
to Jenn and Jesse wherever. They are my favorite boring couple,
one of my favorite board girls. I love walking down
their memory lane. It is very scenic, it is very comfortable,
there's no insects. It's very lovely. Let's walk down their
memory lane anytime forever. And Test was was fantastic as
(28:05):
well and gave some great advice. So what is your
love to go for our listeners today? Well, Test said
something that I've never heard before. When you don't have
all the facts, your brain fills in the gaps. Oh
my yes, does my brain do that? Yes. And when
you're thinking about whether or not someone likes you or
wants to keep talking to you and you don't know,
(28:25):
it's it's a big internal narrative that you're going to construct. Yes,
they do know, they don't. I don't know. Why don't
I know? That's a lot. So Yeah, when you don't
have all the facts, your brain fills in the gaps. Yep,
we would like to know what you're thinking. Please email
us at loves Stark Daily had Frolly Got Media. If
you have a love story to share you want to
talk to us, we would love to hear your memory lane.
(28:46):
You can follow us on Instagram and Twitter at love
Stark Daily. If you would send us a review, we
would absolutely love it. Our researcher is Jesse Epstein. Our
editor is Jen Jacobs. We are produced by Abigail Steckler
and Little Scorpions to Studios with executive producer Frolic Media.
This is an I Heart Radio podcast. But until then,
we wish you a very conversational happily ever after. I'm
(29:12):
in love with that, ain't say to you. That's kind
of say I'm in love with you. I'm in love
with you
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