March 19, 2020 • 27 mins
It's hard to imagine an exec with a more colorful background than IPG's Chief Operating Officer and EVP Philippe Krakowsky. Hailing from Mexico City, Philippe grew up speaking three languages. He paid for college by debugging Atari games. And though he studied linguistics and comparative lit, his first job after school was founding an AI startup...that he later sold to Apple! Learn how Philippe got bit by the advertising bug, how he uses data to build credibility with consumers, and why he advises his colleagues and clients to focus on 2 or 3 things, instead of "trying to boil the ocean." Plus, learn why Philippe thinks diversity and working with people you respect are two of the most powerful assets in building a team.
Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.com
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
You're listening to Math and Magic, a production I heart radio.
What should what can machines do? The theory has been
around for a long time. What wasn't really there was
the computing power to actually make it real. A couple
of us met debugging video games. The reason that we
(00:21):
started the companies because we were unemployable. You know, we
were twenty and we thought we were smarter than anybody,
and we didn't realize we had a lot of stuff
to learn, so we just figured we'd give it a go.
I am Bob Pittman. Welcome to Math and Magic Stories
from the Frontiers and Marketing, where we explore the impact
(00:44):
of great marketing and how it's developed today. We have
someone who's been through many pieces of the marketing puzzle himself.
He's the VP and CEO of IPG, Philippe Brokalski, believe
embodies the modern model of marketing. Speaks three languages, born
(01:08):
and raised outside the US, but he's also fluent in
data communications, traditional advertising. He speaks tech, brand position and
communications as well. He started a while ago as an
AI pioneer and then came to advertising. Like Maurice Levitt publicists.
He has an iconic story of personal corporate bravery. His
(01:29):
judgment and insights have defined his career, and his inner
personal skills have helped build and support an extraordinary management
team at IPG. And he and I have a special bot.
And I'm sure he doesn't know about I'm a preacher's kid.
He's a preacher's husband. Philippe. Welcome, Thank you boy. If
anybody could see me, I'm blushing. We have lots to
cover day, but before we do, I want to dig
(01:50):
into you in sixty seconds. Ready? Yep? You prefer cats
or dogs? Dogs? Twitter? Instagram, Instagram, New York City, Mexico City.
Oh that's a tough one. My hometown, but New York City.
I've been here a long time. Call or text, text
because I got kids at an age where that's actually
the only way they respond to you. Early riser or
(02:11):
night out. I'm a night owloch or caviar. Of course,
it's about to get harder. Secret talent can nap on
a dime anywhere, at any time. Smartest person you know
the preacher you mentioned though, and that I'm married to
childhood hero Nelson Mandela. First job making beds at the
Sir Francis Drake hotel, historical libel abe Lincoln was pretty cool.
(02:34):
Who would play you in a movie? I'd played George Stephanopolis,
or so I've been told. So I said, there's probably
a similarity. The proudest personal achievement probably my kids. What's
your favorite life scream flavor? Salted caramel? What did you
want to be a new growing up professional soccer? Blob
favorite smell? I've never been asked that Mexican food best
(02:55):
live concert. Well, my first live concert early mid seventies
is the Doobie Brothers. Let's Jump in. Okay. When Michael Roth,
who had a full career in corporate America, moved into
the CEO of job at IPG with no advertising experience,
it's been said you were the one who helped him
navigate and understand the advertising business that accurate. It was
(03:16):
an interesting opportunity where I think that the company needed
somebody who had his skills. There was a moment right
at the beginning when we'd brought some management consultancy and
to take a look at what was going on inside
the company, and Michael said, we need somebody writing shotgun
with them who really knows the business. So he gave
me that opportunity, and then that's how we got to
(03:37):
know one another. And we've been working together now for
seventeen years. I've jumped in the businesses. I knew nothing
about it, and there was always worked out pretty well.
It did work out pretty well, but there was always
somebody who did help me go oh no, no, let
me explain through put to you at the theme park
business or whatever it was. Clearly you have been that person.
How do you say, Okay, these are the first ten
(03:58):
things AUTO talk to you about and bring you up
to speed on. I don't know that you actually do
it quite in a way that's that methodical and systematic.
I think you kind of get thrown into the deep
end of the pool, right, and so you sort them
with a combination of here's a rank order of what
you need to understand to get oriented in this world,
(04:20):
and here's the thing that just landed on our lap
today that needs to get resolved, and let's just get
after what we need to understand so we can clear
this one off the plate. And a business like ours,
so much of it is the personalities and the talent.
It's as much about figuring out who are these people,
what motivates them, how are we going to get them
(04:42):
focused and working as a team. And then what's going
on at a macrobe business trend level was an organic process.
So over the last two years or more, in the
vast majority of quarters, i PG has outperformed the overall
In this three in organic revenue growth was having a
(05:02):
CEO who was an exceptional business person but fresh to
the business. A part of the secret sauce for you. Sure,
We've spent a bunch of years now differentiating ourselves in
a couple of ways. One is investments in the talent
and not making the story about us, but making it
about how we support and give the right kind of
(05:26):
stage to the agency brands. Then how we get them
to work together, how we orchestrate a way of working
where you get the most because you're getting the right answers,
not the silo driven answers. And then last the combination
of starting to stir in data science, that rigor of
tech with the heart of and the craft of traditional advertising.
(05:51):
I want to dig into those, but before we get
into that business part, I want to go back to
the beginning. I want to get some context on you.
You mentioned you were born in Mexico, said in the sixties,
tell us about your family and paint a picture of
your childhood and Mexico City in that era, It's always
been a big city, so I guess I'm a big
city kid. I like being in a place where there's
(06:11):
always something going on. I'm kind of a mutt, so
I've got a lot of European and some Latin American.
I'm an immigrant who didn't speak English when we moved
here as a kid. But I was actually already a
US citizen because my mom's grandfather left Romania in the
late eighteen nineties, moved to the US and was a
(06:32):
railroad engineer. All his kids were born to US, were
born American citizens, ended up in San Francisco when the
Big Quake kid and his wife took them all back
to Romania Wow in like nineteen o nine or something.
My mom did some of her growing up in New York.
My parents actually met here, and my dad just lived
in a bunch of places growing up because his dad's
(06:53):
business took him to most of Latin America. My dad
actually spent his high school years in Cuba pre the Revolution.
When did you leave Mexico? That was about eight in
nineteen seventy and you moved to San Francisco. What did
you bring from Mexico with you? I mean Mexico in
that era had that very robust creative scene there. Did
(07:16):
that affect you in any way? Did it come with you?
It was an interesting mix. There's a lot of creativity.
There was great architecture going on at the time. There
was a lot of sort of social stuff going on.
I mean there was the political scene was a version
of stuff that you were seeing in this country in
the sixties. There's a certain kind of curiosity, restlessness. You're
(07:36):
open to new ideas. I think the expectation is that
life is going to be growing interesting stuff your way.
You go to San Francisco, you wind up at Harvard.
Why Harvard? It was curiosity. I had no experience and
no reference points that would have led me to believe
that it was going to be good, bad, or in
different It was just sort of a if I don't
(07:57):
try it, I'll always ask myself why I didn't try it.
I'll give it a go. And what you major in
comparative literature and linguistics, that's a good preparation for AI.
I paid my way through school by programming computers. What
do you think college did for you? How did you change?
It was less about the formal classroom part of it
and more about figure out who you are and figure
(08:19):
out how to fit for yourself and just figure out
what really interests you. You leave school, you were on
a team that built and ultimately sold an artificial intelligence
company and Apple. What is interesting about this is this
was a while ago. This was really early. I'm not
even sure most people you said I I knew what
you were talking about at that moment. What was your
(08:39):
role on the team and what did you see in
a I at that moment. A lot of the ideas
and a lot of for instances, what should what can
machines do? The theory has been around for a long time.
What wasn't really there was the computing power to actually
make it real. The ideas were really just cognitive science.
(09:02):
What's your brain do? How does it work? Why can
a computer do or not do? Some of those things.
A couple of us met debugging video games got really
interested in some stuff that Alan Kay was doing with
small talk at the time. The reason that we started
the companies because we were unemployable. You know, we were
twenty and We thought we were smart than anybody, and
we didn't realize we had a lot of stuff to learn.
So we just figured we'd give it a go. And
(09:23):
how did you sell it? Apple? We build programming languages
and tools for the very early Macintosh is and eventually
we wanted to use the tools to build smart applications,
and we could never quite get out of our own way.
So we put a product into market, and then we
were learning that there were lots of issues around, oh,
you know, customer service and keeping our name out all
(09:46):
those things. Right, So there were four of us and
we kept at it for a while, four or five years,
trying to do it ourselves. And you know, we had
a really nice, niche company. But eventually a couple of
folks came calling, and I think we all kind of
burnt out a little on the work and maybe even
on each other as partners, and so it was the
right time. So you go from a high to advertising.
(10:11):
How did that happen? What was the catalyst? I wasn't
sure if I wanted to be a tech guy forever
and at the software company, I'd be in the interface
to the rest of the world. So I've done all
of our outreach, I've written business plans, I've dealt with
the public as it were, helped us figure out and
pick our design firm and do our advertising and ad
(10:31):
agencies seemed like a place where I could get exposure
to lots of other industries. So there was a very
creative agency in New York at the time called Levine
Huntley Schmitten Beaver. So I met a couple of the
guys who ran it, and they had a tech encounter
two and they were interested in seeing if we could
do something together. And I was interested in learning about
the beer account they had, in the car account they had,
(10:53):
and so I did business development for them. So the
bug bit you, yeah, just a bit. By ninety one,
you were the your vice president of corporate communications for
B B d O worldwide and then you went to
Win and R I mean all big names, big jobs.
The Internet was just emerging them. Did you feel the
impact right away of the Internet on the advertising business
(11:17):
or did you foresee the impact on advertising coming from tech.
I may have had the advantage of having more exposure
to it than a lot of folks in the business
at B Video, where I got to work with Alan
Rosenshein and Phil Dusonberry, who were real kind of legends
in the business. It was fun to have them say
what is this thing? Which we do about it? You
(11:38):
could see that it was going to have a really
lasting impact. But even when you can see the wave
and you think it's coming at speed, it takes a
certain amount of time to actually kind of break on
the shore. Right, some people are welcoming and some people
are kind of hoping that you just go away and
leave alone. I was at a o L in that period.
From our side, it didn't look like what happened was
(11:58):
going to happen. We were just form can't we get
some money for advertising? And I remember meeting with one
of the top one or two banks in America's CEO
and I go, you need to be on the internet,
and he goes, I don't know, We're not sure we
need to be on the internet. This was the late
nineties by then, and the same period you were in advertising,
and why and are what was on the other side
of it, What was the discussion inside the agencies and
(12:21):
who are the people pushing back? The folks who have
the most to protect, the most to lose will invariably
have the hardest time coming to grips with the reality
folks who are at a point in their journey career wise,
they'd rather hold on for just a little longer and
not have to either admit they don't understand something or
dramatically changed their behavior. It was definitely easily fifty fifty
(12:45):
if not, you know more, they either didn't want to
hear it, or they only wanted to hear it if
you told them that they were going to get to
control it, that once you helped them solve it, it
was gonna end up in their fiefdom, in their P
and L. So now we get the I p G.
Why did you make that jump? I had been at
one and R when it was acquired by w PP.
(13:06):
I had chosen not to stay at w PP, and
so there were a group of senior folks who left
when the merger took place. The IPG was kind of
a famous name, you know, stable of companies, many of
them really well known that had fallen on some hard times,
and so that seemed interesting from the outside looking in,
it was like, okay, they've got to be kind of
(13:28):
getting to the point where if you show up you
could help turn it around and it took a little
while longer than that for it to find bottom. What
did you learn from B, B, D, O, Y, and
R even your AI venture that gave you something unique
fry PG. It's like a mosaic, it's a combination of things.
So the tech thing has been sort of underlying for
(13:49):
a long time, working at Levine Huntley, which was a
creative boutique agency, and B Video, which was a big
global network that pride itself where the usp was creativity.
So I kind of had that piece from those guys.
Whiner was early in the integration game, and so they
talked a lot about trying to get the various pieces
(14:11):
of this emerging marketing puzzle to work together. What was
great about it was just learning how the various pieces worked,
what a direct agency did, what a media department was
all about, how you made money on PR That gave
me this breadth of exposure to so many fat sets
(14:32):
of the industry. There's a moment in time when you
can start pulling them together and solve some more complicated
kinds of problems. So let's talk about crises for minute.
We started at the beginning and I said, you've got
a story. One of those legendary stories of somebody who
had to go, I gotta go do this. I don't
know how this is going to turn out, but this
is the right thing to do in a board meeting.
(14:52):
Can you tell that story? Michael and I and then
Frank are a longtime CFO partner, Frank Mergantaller all kind
of came in through different doors within the space of
about a year a year and a half, none of
us having known one another. And um in those early
days when you had a big company that had been
put together through a lot a lot of acquisitions, none
(15:14):
of them particularly well integrated, and then just prior to
a financial crisis, when it all hit the fan, it
got pretty messy and pretty complicated for a while. In
that moment of crisis, it was just sort of people
pushing other people out of the way to get to
life raft. And so there was a board meeting at
which Michael was talking to our board about many of
(15:36):
the problems that the business had, and I end up
getting a call from a journalist in which some of
what was actually being discussed in that room. So Michael
and I have this funny moment where I walk into
the boardroom to tell them about stuff that's happening in
the boardroom. So I think for both of us it
was indicative of how crazy things were at this company.
Stories I've heard is that you got a lot of
(15:58):
credit for being willing to walk in and say when
it stopped, there's something going on you don't know about.
I've never quite heard that happening before in real time,
but certainly major mark. Just hold on a second, because
we've got so much more to talk about. We'll be
back after a quick break. Welcome back to Math and Magic.
(16:22):
You have had the top communications job, the chief strategy
and talent officer, and through some other jobs to finally
the the CEO of the company. I'd like to talk
about some of the big marks you've made. I see
two real key ones. One is data, digital and tech,
and the other quite different is diversity and talent development.
And I'd like to start with data. You embedded in
(16:43):
all areas of IPG, this sort of tech and digital
wherewithal and of course the two point three billion dollar
purchase of the data marketing service Axiom. How did all
this fundamentally change the capabilities of IPG and differentiate it.
I think when you started to see technology accelerate in
the ways in which people behave, the way in which
(17:04):
they take information on board, the way in which they
share information, the way in which they literally just navigate
the world. It became really clear that we needed expertise
in that. There was this funny kind of bifurcation that
happened in the sector where some of our competitors went
out and started buying that. And the question that we
kind of came do was, if you buy it and
(17:24):
it sits in its own silo and it's kept away
from the rest of your world, what do you really
get for it? And then on top of that, you're
paying a multiple for a very fungible set of assets.
So we tried to bootstrap as much of that as
we could inside of the various companies. So we would
sit with agency leaders and say, if these are the
trends that we think are coming, then what are you
(17:47):
going to do to kind of evolve your offerings so
that you can stay relevant in that world? And then
what do we need to get you in the way
of resources. We actually kind of built a lot of
it over time, which was different than most of our competitors,
and then as it's picked up speed and the complexity
has grown. We've built a programmatic business inside the company.
(18:08):
So you did that inside the company, how did you
work with the other side of it by hard or
other media companies folks like us. It's the combination of
the data, the tech, the platform. Understanding where that is
going is key and sorting out how you incorporate that
and marry that up to the calm side and the
craft side of the business. But then you know it's
(18:29):
all clearly going to come together, and so finding partners
who are also looking to take they're part of the
ecosystem and evolve it or enhance it. Trying to be
clear with people about what you're trying to accomplish and
hearing what they've got to say, and then just trying
stuff out. There's a lot of test to learn, a
lot of not get it right or being smart about
(18:51):
where the opportunities right for a particular client or for
one of our agencies where they're going to be able
to lean in and partner up with a media owner
or a technology company. You had one big giant there,
the axiom why did you need it and how has
it helped you? You kind of need it because without
expertise and breadth in whether it's the data asset or
(19:15):
whether it's the data management business. I just think it's
harder to figure out how you evolve fast enough or
compete in the world we're in. We used to talk
about the demographics of an individual or the media behavior
of the individual, but I think at this point all
behavior is going to be mediated by some kind of
a device. It's gonna mean that everything about people's lives
(19:39):
is addressable. The upside of that is, okay, I can
make it so that things are more relevant for them,
so that things are more valuable to them. The downside,
which we see and hear a lot about, which is
the surveillance part of it or just the creepy part
of it. And so if you're not really really expert
in and you can't take data and make it both
(19:59):
a differentiator and something that gives you the credibility to
put you kind of on the right side of that divide,
I don't think you've got a terrific future as a business.
So as important as dat has ben for right p G,
it might be argued that your diversity and inclusion drive
has been even more powerful. Talk about how you see
the power of diversity in an organization. You know, it's
(20:22):
big focus of ours, going back a long long time,
coming from an industry not ours, Michael sort of saw
that marketing advertising was behind. I'm kind of a mutton.
So if you're used to being the mishmash of perspectives, worldviews, languages, whatever,
(20:42):
you're gonna just bring different kinds of perspectives to any
kind of problem. For us, it is a marriage of
the tech side of the business and then the people's side,
which is the ideas and how powerful the ideas are
and the creative product. And in that regard, if everybody
is the same, which you're gonna get is clearly not
going to be as good as if you had a
culture where you're more welcoming of our very broad range
(21:06):
of backgrounds and experience. We still probably the only company
in our direct set that compensates exacts. Part of your
annual instead of compensation is connected to how you're doing
on what we've collectively identified as some of our d
n I aspirations and goals. So Darrellly, Eileen, Karenen, Lynn Lewis,
(21:27):
many others, you've got the superstar group of executives. How
do you build a culture which allows them to thrive
and builds the next generation of them. It's really obvious stuff.
It's say what you mean. Encourage people to know that
they can speak their mind, and that's not an issue.
If you say you're gonna do something, do something. We're
(21:49):
very flat as an organization. A lot of our exacts
appreciate that they can walk into our offices. So we
talked a little bit about silos, but silos are falling
and advertising, as there are in every business. How are
you breaking down silos to make that a reality? I
mean at humility goes along ways, right, So you kind
of say to yourself, can you both model behavior and
(22:10):
ask people to acknowledge. Nobody's going to have all the answers,
so just raise your hand and say, I don't know.
What we're solving for is complicated. So if it's going
to be a team sport on any given day, you're
gonna be configuring that team in a way that's different.
So for certain kinds of engagements, somebody's gonna lead, and
(22:31):
for others, that person or that organization is going to
sit in the second chair of the third chair. All
of us are really good at two or three things.
But everybody in this world says, oh I can do
eight things, I can do ten things. I don't want
to either leave, you know, money on the table or
be perceived of as not the best at even some
of the most cutting edge stuff. And so, what are
(22:53):
the three things you guys are really good at? And
those are the ones that we're going to then make
sure that you, as an organization, get pulled in on
every opportunity to bring those to the table human beings
or human beings. So if you encourage them and acknowledge
their contributions around the things that really are good at,
that helps a long ways. How you pay people helps
(23:13):
in the same way that around D and I, we
tie instead of compensation to that, we tie a meaningful
amount of incent of compensation too what we refer to
as collaboration. And it gets people's attention when you're thoughtful
and rigorous about the end of the year, saying, hey,
here's how you guys did on these things, and we'll
sit with you and take you through where we thought
(23:34):
you were terrific and where maybe you didn't play so
nicely with the other children, and maybe even where that
is going to cost you in your organization some money.
What advice would you give someone who wants to wind
up in the advertising business where you are somebody on
the way up. I don't know that I set out
with a very specific plan. It wasn't I'm going to
(23:54):
get from here to there. It was I'm gonna do
things that are interesting, saw problems. If some things are
more interesting than others, I'm gonna ask to do more
of those kinds of things. Getting things done and not
sweating too much what you're being called on a given day,
whether it's from a title perspective or sharing the credit
or not, I think helps a lot. The one that
(24:15):
I think becomes more apparent as you get further along
in your career is working with people who you respect
in an organization where there's commitment to behaving in a
certain way and integrity, and where you're like, I feel
good about who I'm working with. That's a lot more
powerful than people usually realize. So let's take the advice
(24:36):
to IPG. You've got a lot of people working there,
thousands and thousands and thousands. Someone they're listening to this
wants to make their mark on advertising within the career
at IPG. What advice. Do you give them, raise your hand,
ask questions, get help when you need it. Figure out
who can make you better, as in, teach you some
(24:57):
stuff you don't know. Some of them with a little
more burience will help you look around a corner. Understanding
where and how tech is impacting business. You would definitely
want to focus on that. It helps to understand where
and how any business actually makes money. I mean, I
think a lot of people, whether you're running a client
engagement or whether you're a creative person, do you get
(25:19):
deep enough into how the gears connect to the gears
around what's really driving the business. So here's our last
advice question. What advice would you give your twenty one
year old self. The best advice I got when I
was in my twenties was to sort of stop trying
to kind of boil the ocean and get it all
done in one go, and to focus on two or
(25:39):
three big things that you would do in a given
twelve month period. And the other great advice I got,
probably in my early thirties is to try and carve
out time to step away for long enough to reflect,
to actually think and figure out some of the bigger
cross currents as we wrap up, we always end the
Math and Match with a shout out. You've seen the
(26:02):
great analytical people, You've seen the great creatives up close.
You're a history buff. You've read about him. Who gets
your shout out as the most analytical marketer or business person?
The math person, Alan Turing. I mean, that's a pretty
darn good one. It's the first time someone said that.
So let's go to the creative side. Who's the greatest
creative the magician. I guess you'd probably go, you know,
(26:24):
Steve Jobs. He's been mentioned before. Philip. It's been great
having you here. Congrats on all your success and thanks
for sharing the stories behind it more pleasure. Thanks for
having me, Thanks for listening. I'm Bob Pittman. That's it
for today's episode. Thanks so much for listening to Math
(26:47):
and Magic, a production of I Heart Radio. This show
is hosted by Bob Pittman. Special thanks to Sue Schillinger
for booking and wrangling our wonderful talent, which is no
small feat. Nikki Eatre for pulling research, Bill Plax and
Michael as Are for their recording help, our editor Ryan Murdoch,
and of course Gaile Raoul, Eric Angel, Noel Mango, and
everyone who helped bring this show to your ears. Until
(27:09):
next time,
You're listening to Math and Magic, a production I heart radio.
What should what can machines do? The theory has been
around for a long time. What wasn't really there was
the computing power to actually make it real. A couple
of us met debugging video games. The reason that we
(00:21):
started the companies because we were unemployable. You know, we
were twenty and we thought we were smarter than anybody,
and we didn't realize we had a lot of stuff
to learn, so we just figured we'd give it a go.
I am Bob Pittman. Welcome to Math and Magic Stories
from the Frontiers and Marketing, where we explore the impact
(00:44):
of great marketing and how it's developed today. We have
someone who's been through many pieces of the marketing puzzle himself.
He's the VP and CEO of IPG, Philippe Brokalski, believe
embodies the modern model of marketing. Speaks three languages, born
(01:08):
and raised outside the US, but he's also fluent in
data communications, traditional advertising. He speaks tech, brand position and
communications as well. He started a while ago as an
AI pioneer and then came to advertising. Like Maurice Levitt publicists.
He has an iconic story of personal corporate bravery. His
(01:29):
judgment and insights have defined his career, and his inner
personal skills have helped build and support an extraordinary management
team at IPG. And he and I have a special bot.
And I'm sure he doesn't know about I'm a preacher's kid.
He's a preacher's husband. Philippe. Welcome, Thank you boy. If
anybody could see me, I'm blushing. We have lots to
cover day, but before we do, I want to dig
(01:50):
into you in sixty seconds. Ready? Yep? You prefer cats
or dogs? Dogs? Twitter? Instagram, Instagram, New York City, Mexico City.
Oh that's a tough one. My hometown, but New York City.
I've been here a long time. Call or text, text
because I got kids at an age where that's actually
the only way they respond to you. Early riser or
(02:11):
night out. I'm a night owloch or caviar. Of course,
it's about to get harder. Secret talent can nap on
a dime anywhere, at any time. Smartest person you know
the preacher you mentioned though, and that I'm married to
childhood hero Nelson Mandela. First job making beds at the
Sir Francis Drake hotel, historical libel abe Lincoln was pretty cool.
(02:34):
Who would play you in a movie? I'd played George Stephanopolis,
or so I've been told. So I said, there's probably
a similarity. The proudest personal achievement probably my kids. What's
your favorite life scream flavor? Salted caramel? What did you
want to be a new growing up professional soccer? Blob
favorite smell? I've never been asked that Mexican food best
(02:55):
live concert. Well, my first live concert early mid seventies
is the Doobie Brothers. Let's Jump in. Okay. When Michael Roth,
who had a full career in corporate America, moved into
the CEO of job at IPG with no advertising experience,
it's been said you were the one who helped him
navigate and understand the advertising business that accurate. It was
(03:16):
an interesting opportunity where I think that the company needed
somebody who had his skills. There was a moment right
at the beginning when we'd brought some management consultancy and
to take a look at what was going on inside
the company, and Michael said, we need somebody writing shotgun
with them who really knows the business. So he gave
me that opportunity, and then that's how we got to
(03:37):
know one another. And we've been working together now for
seventeen years. I've jumped in the businesses. I knew nothing
about it, and there was always worked out pretty well.
It did work out pretty well, but there was always
somebody who did help me go oh no, no, let
me explain through put to you at the theme park
business or whatever it was. Clearly you have been that person.
How do you say, Okay, these are the first ten
(03:58):
things AUTO talk to you about and bring you up
to speed on. I don't know that you actually do
it quite in a way that's that methodical and systematic.
I think you kind of get thrown into the deep
end of the pool, right, and so you sort them
with a combination of here's a rank order of what
you need to understand to get oriented in this world,
(04:20):
and here's the thing that just landed on our lap
today that needs to get resolved, and let's just get
after what we need to understand so we can clear
this one off the plate. And a business like ours,
so much of it is the personalities and the talent.
It's as much about figuring out who are these people,
what motivates them, how are we going to get them
(04:42):
focused and working as a team. And then what's going
on at a macrobe business trend level was an organic process.
So over the last two years or more, in the
vast majority of quarters, i PG has outperformed the overall
In this three in organic revenue growth was having a
(05:02):
CEO who was an exceptional business person but fresh to
the business. A part of the secret sauce for you. Sure,
We've spent a bunch of years now differentiating ourselves in
a couple of ways. One is investments in the talent
and not making the story about us, but making it
about how we support and give the right kind of
(05:26):
stage to the agency brands. Then how we get them
to work together, how we orchestrate a way of working
where you get the most because you're getting the right answers,
not the silo driven answers. And then last the combination
of starting to stir in data science, that rigor of
tech with the heart of and the craft of traditional advertising.
(05:51):
I want to dig into those, but before we get
into that business part, I want to go back to
the beginning. I want to get some context on you.
You mentioned you were born in Mexico, said in the sixties,
tell us about your family and paint a picture of
your childhood and Mexico City in that era, It's always
been a big city, so I guess I'm a big
city kid. I like being in a place where there's
(06:11):
always something going on. I'm kind of a mutt, so
I've got a lot of European and some Latin American.
I'm an immigrant who didn't speak English when we moved
here as a kid. But I was actually already a
US citizen because my mom's grandfather left Romania in the
late eighteen nineties, moved to the US and was a
(06:32):
railroad engineer. All his kids were born to US, were
born American citizens, ended up in San Francisco when the
Big Quake kid and his wife took them all back
to Romania Wow in like nineteen o nine or something.
My mom did some of her growing up in New York.
My parents actually met here, and my dad just lived
in a bunch of places growing up because his dad's
(06:53):
business took him to most of Latin America. My dad
actually spent his high school years in Cuba pre the Revolution.
When did you leave Mexico? That was about eight in
nineteen seventy and you moved to San Francisco. What did
you bring from Mexico with you? I mean Mexico in
that era had that very robust creative scene there. Did
(07:16):
that affect you in any way? Did it come with you?
It was an interesting mix. There's a lot of creativity.
There was great architecture going on at the time. There
was a lot of sort of social stuff going on.
I mean there was the political scene was a version
of stuff that you were seeing in this country in
the sixties. There's a certain kind of curiosity, restlessness. You're
(07:36):
open to new ideas. I think the expectation is that
life is going to be growing interesting stuff your way.
You go to San Francisco, you wind up at Harvard.
Why Harvard? It was curiosity. I had no experience and
no reference points that would have led me to believe
that it was going to be good, bad, or in
different It was just sort of a if I don't
(07:57):
try it, I'll always ask myself why I didn't try it.
I'll give it a go. And what you major in
comparative literature and linguistics, that's a good preparation for AI.
I paid my way through school by programming computers. What
do you think college did for you? How did you change?
It was less about the formal classroom part of it
and more about figure out who you are and figure
(08:19):
out how to fit for yourself and just figure out
what really interests you. You leave school, you were on
a team that built and ultimately sold an artificial intelligence
company and Apple. What is interesting about this is this
was a while ago. This was really early. I'm not
even sure most people you said I I knew what
you were talking about at that moment. What was your
(08:39):
role on the team and what did you see in
a I at that moment. A lot of the ideas
and a lot of for instances, what should what can
machines do? The theory has been around for a long time.
What wasn't really there was the computing power to actually
make it real. The ideas were really just cognitive science.
(09:02):
What's your brain do? How does it work? Why can
a computer do or not do? Some of those things.
A couple of us met debugging video games got really
interested in some stuff that Alan Kay was doing with
small talk at the time. The reason that we started
the companies because we were unemployable. You know, we were
twenty and We thought we were smart than anybody, and
we didn't realize we had a lot of stuff to learn.
So we just figured we'd give it a go. And
(09:23):
how did you sell it? Apple? We build programming languages
and tools for the very early Macintosh is and eventually
we wanted to use the tools to build smart applications,
and we could never quite get out of our own way.
So we put a product into market, and then we
were learning that there were lots of issues around, oh,
you know, customer service and keeping our name out all
(09:46):
those things. Right, So there were four of us and
we kept at it for a while, four or five years,
trying to do it ourselves. And you know, we had
a really nice, niche company. But eventually a couple of
folks came calling, and I think we all kind of
burnt out a little on the work and maybe even
on each other as partners, and so it was the
right time. So you go from a high to advertising.
(10:11):
How did that happen? What was the catalyst? I wasn't
sure if I wanted to be a tech guy forever
and at the software company, I'd be in the interface
to the rest of the world. So I've done all
of our outreach, I've written business plans, I've dealt with
the public as it were, helped us figure out and
pick our design firm and do our advertising and ad
(10:31):
agencies seemed like a place where I could get exposure
to lots of other industries. So there was a very
creative agency in New York at the time called Levine
Huntley Schmitten Beaver. So I met a couple of the
guys who ran it, and they had a tech encounter
two and they were interested in seeing if we could
do something together. And I was interested in learning about
the beer account they had, in the car account they had,
(10:53):
and so I did business development for them. So the
bug bit you, yeah, just a bit. By ninety one,
you were the your vice president of corporate communications for
B B d O worldwide and then you went to
Win and R I mean all big names, big jobs.
The Internet was just emerging them. Did you feel the
impact right away of the Internet on the advertising business
(11:17):
or did you foresee the impact on advertising coming from tech.
I may have had the advantage of having more exposure
to it than a lot of folks in the business
at B Video, where I got to work with Alan
Rosenshein and Phil Dusonberry, who were real kind of legends
in the business. It was fun to have them say
what is this thing? Which we do about it? You
(11:38):
could see that it was going to have a really
lasting impact. But even when you can see the wave
and you think it's coming at speed, it takes a
certain amount of time to actually kind of break on
the shore. Right, some people are welcoming and some people
are kind of hoping that you just go away and
leave alone. I was at a o L in that period.
From our side, it didn't look like what happened was
(11:58):
going to happen. We were just form can't we get
some money for advertising? And I remember meeting with one
of the top one or two banks in America's CEO
and I go, you need to be on the internet,
and he goes, I don't know, We're not sure we
need to be on the internet. This was the late
nineties by then, and the same period you were in advertising,
and why and are what was on the other side
of it, What was the discussion inside the agencies and
(12:21):
who are the people pushing back? The folks who have
the most to protect, the most to lose will invariably
have the hardest time coming to grips with the reality
folks who are at a point in their journey career wise,
they'd rather hold on for just a little longer and
not have to either admit they don't understand something or
dramatically changed their behavior. It was definitely easily fifty fifty
(12:45):
if not, you know more, they either didn't want to
hear it, or they only wanted to hear it if
you told them that they were going to get to
control it, that once you helped them solve it, it
was gonna end up in their fiefdom, in their P
and L. So now we get the I p G.
Why did you make that jump? I had been at
one and R when it was acquired by w PP.
(13:06):
I had chosen not to stay at w PP, and
so there were a group of senior folks who left
when the merger took place. The IPG was kind of
a famous name, you know, stable of companies, many of
them really well known that had fallen on some hard times,
and so that seemed interesting from the outside looking in,
it was like, okay, they've got to be kind of
(13:28):
getting to the point where if you show up you
could help turn it around and it took a little
while longer than that for it to find bottom. What
did you learn from B, B, D, O, Y, and
R even your AI venture that gave you something unique
fry PG. It's like a mosaic, it's a combination of things.
So the tech thing has been sort of underlying for
(13:49):
a long time, working at Levine Huntley, which was a
creative boutique agency, and B Video, which was a big
global network that pride itself where the usp was creativity.
So I kind of had that piece from those guys.
Whiner was early in the integration game, and so they
talked a lot about trying to get the various pieces
(14:11):
of this emerging marketing puzzle to work together. What was
great about it was just learning how the various pieces worked,
what a direct agency did, what a media department was
all about, how you made money on PR That gave
me this breadth of exposure to so many fat sets
(14:32):
of the industry. There's a moment in time when you
can start pulling them together and solve some more complicated
kinds of problems. So let's talk about crises for minute.
We started at the beginning and I said, you've got
a story. One of those legendary stories of somebody who
had to go, I gotta go do this. I don't
know how this is going to turn out, but this
is the right thing to do in a board meeting.
(14:52):
Can you tell that story? Michael and I and then
Frank are a longtime CFO partner, Frank Mergantaller all kind
of came in through different doors within the space of
about a year a year and a half, none of
us having known one another. And um in those early
days when you had a big company that had been
put together through a lot a lot of acquisitions, none
(15:14):
of them particularly well integrated, and then just prior to
a financial crisis, when it all hit the fan, it
got pretty messy and pretty complicated for a while. In
that moment of crisis, it was just sort of people
pushing other people out of the way to get to
life raft. And so there was a board meeting at
which Michael was talking to our board about many of
(15:36):
the problems that the business had, and I end up
getting a call from a journalist in which some of
what was actually being discussed in that room. So Michael
and I have this funny moment where I walk into
the boardroom to tell them about stuff that's happening in
the boardroom. So I think for both of us it
was indicative of how crazy things were at this company.
Stories I've heard is that you got a lot of
(15:58):
credit for being willing to walk in and say when
it stopped, there's something going on you don't know about.
I've never quite heard that happening before in real time,
but certainly major mark. Just hold on a second, because
we've got so much more to talk about. We'll be
back after a quick break. Welcome back to Math and Magic.
(16:22):
You have had the top communications job, the chief strategy
and talent officer, and through some other jobs to finally
the the CEO of the company. I'd like to talk
about some of the big marks you've made. I see
two real key ones. One is data, digital and tech,
and the other quite different is diversity and talent development.
And I'd like to start with data. You embedded in
(16:43):
all areas of IPG, this sort of tech and digital
wherewithal and of course the two point three billion dollar
purchase of the data marketing service Axiom. How did all
this fundamentally change the capabilities of IPG and differentiate it.
I think when you started to see technology accelerate in
the ways in which people behave, the way in which
(17:04):
they take information on board, the way in which they
share information, the way in which they literally just navigate
the world. It became really clear that we needed expertise
in that. There was this funny kind of bifurcation that
happened in the sector where some of our competitors went
out and started buying that. And the question that we
kind of came do was, if you buy it and
(17:24):
it sits in its own silo and it's kept away
from the rest of your world, what do you really
get for it? And then on top of that, you're
paying a multiple for a very fungible set of assets.
So we tried to bootstrap as much of that as
we could inside of the various companies. So we would
sit with agency leaders and say, if these are the
trends that we think are coming, then what are you
(17:47):
going to do to kind of evolve your offerings so
that you can stay relevant in that world? And then
what do we need to get you in the way
of resources. We actually kind of built a lot of
it over time, which was different than most of our competitors,
and then as it's picked up speed and the complexity
has grown. We've built a programmatic business inside the company.
(18:08):
So you did that inside the company, how did you
work with the other side of it by hard or
other media companies folks like us. It's the combination of
the data, the tech, the platform. Understanding where that is
going is key and sorting out how you incorporate that
and marry that up to the calm side and the
craft side of the business. But then you know it's
(18:29):
all clearly going to come together, and so finding partners
who are also looking to take they're part of the
ecosystem and evolve it or enhance it. Trying to be
clear with people about what you're trying to accomplish and
hearing what they've got to say, and then just trying
stuff out. There's a lot of test to learn, a
lot of not get it right or being smart about
(18:51):
where the opportunities right for a particular client or for
one of our agencies where they're going to be able
to lean in and partner up with a media owner
or a technology company. You had one big giant there,
the axiom why did you need it and how has
it helped you? You kind of need it because without
expertise and breadth in whether it's the data asset or
(19:15):
whether it's the data management business. I just think it's
harder to figure out how you evolve fast enough or
compete in the world we're in. We used to talk
about the demographics of an individual or the media behavior
of the individual, but I think at this point all
behavior is going to be mediated by some kind of
a device. It's gonna mean that everything about people's lives
(19:39):
is addressable. The upside of that is, okay, I can
make it so that things are more relevant for them,
so that things are more valuable to them. The downside,
which we see and hear a lot about, which is
the surveillance part of it or just the creepy part
of it. And so if you're not really really expert
in and you can't take data and make it both
(19:59):
a differentiator and something that gives you the credibility to
put you kind of on the right side of that divide,
I don't think you've got a terrific future as a business.
So as important as dat has ben for right p G,
it might be argued that your diversity and inclusion drive
has been even more powerful. Talk about how you see
the power of diversity in an organization. You know, it's
(20:22):
big focus of ours, going back a long long time,
coming from an industry not ours, Michael sort of saw
that marketing advertising was behind. I'm kind of a mutton.
So if you're used to being the mishmash of perspectives, worldviews, languages, whatever,
(20:42):
you're gonna just bring different kinds of perspectives to any
kind of problem. For us, it is a marriage of
the tech side of the business and then the people's side,
which is the ideas and how powerful the ideas are
and the creative product. And in that regard, if everybody
is the same, which you're gonna get is clearly not
going to be as good as if you had a
culture where you're more welcoming of our very broad range
(21:06):
of backgrounds and experience. We still probably the only company
in our direct set that compensates exacts. Part of your
annual instead of compensation is connected to how you're doing
on what we've collectively identified as some of our d
n I aspirations and goals. So Darrellly, Eileen, Karenen, Lynn Lewis,
(21:27):
many others, you've got the superstar group of executives. How
do you build a culture which allows them to thrive
and builds the next generation of them. It's really obvious stuff.
It's say what you mean. Encourage people to know that
they can speak their mind, and that's not an issue.
If you say you're gonna do something, do something. We're
(21:49):
very flat as an organization. A lot of our exacts
appreciate that they can walk into our offices. So we
talked a little bit about silos, but silos are falling
and advertising, as there are in every business. How are
you breaking down silos to make that a reality? I
mean at humility goes along ways, right, So you kind
of say to yourself, can you both model behavior and
(22:10):
ask people to acknowledge. Nobody's going to have all the answers,
so just raise your hand and say, I don't know.
What we're solving for is complicated. So if it's going
to be a team sport on any given day, you're
gonna be configuring that team in a way that's different.
So for certain kinds of engagements, somebody's gonna lead, and
(22:31):
for others, that person or that organization is going to
sit in the second chair of the third chair. All
of us are really good at two or three things.
But everybody in this world says, oh I can do
eight things, I can do ten things. I don't want
to either leave, you know, money on the table or
be perceived of as not the best at even some
of the most cutting edge stuff. And so, what are
(22:53):
the three things you guys are really good at? And
those are the ones that we're going to then make
sure that you, as an organization, get pulled in on
every opportunity to bring those to the table human beings
or human beings. So if you encourage them and acknowledge
their contributions around the things that really are good at,
that helps a long ways. How you pay people helps
(23:13):
in the same way that around D and I, we
tie instead of compensation to that, we tie a meaningful
amount of incent of compensation too what we refer to
as collaboration. And it gets people's attention when you're thoughtful
and rigorous about the end of the year, saying, hey,
here's how you guys did on these things, and we'll
sit with you and take you through where we thought
(23:34):
you were terrific and where maybe you didn't play so
nicely with the other children, and maybe even where that
is going to cost you in your organization some money.
What advice would you give someone who wants to wind
up in the advertising business where you are somebody on
the way up. I don't know that I set out
with a very specific plan. It wasn't I'm going to
(23:54):
get from here to there. It was I'm gonna do
things that are interesting, saw problems. If some things are
more interesting than others, I'm gonna ask to do more
of those kinds of things. Getting things done and not
sweating too much what you're being called on a given day,
whether it's from a title perspective or sharing the credit
or not, I think helps a lot. The one that
(24:15):
I think becomes more apparent as you get further along
in your career is working with people who you respect
in an organization where there's commitment to behaving in a
certain way and integrity, and where you're like, I feel
good about who I'm working with. That's a lot more
powerful than people usually realize. So let's take the advice
(24:36):
to IPG. You've got a lot of people working there,
thousands and thousands and thousands. Someone they're listening to this
wants to make their mark on advertising within the career
at IPG. What advice. Do you give them, raise your hand,
ask questions, get help when you need it. Figure out
who can make you better, as in, teach you some
(24:57):
stuff you don't know. Some of them with a little
more burience will help you look around a corner. Understanding
where and how tech is impacting business. You would definitely
want to focus on that. It helps to understand where
and how any business actually makes money. I mean, I
think a lot of people, whether you're running a client
engagement or whether you're a creative person, do you get
(25:19):
deep enough into how the gears connect to the gears
around what's really driving the business. So here's our last
advice question. What advice would you give your twenty one
year old self. The best advice I got when I
was in my twenties was to sort of stop trying
to kind of boil the ocean and get it all
done in one go, and to focus on two or
(25:39):
three big things that you would do in a given
twelve month period. And the other great advice I got,
probably in my early thirties is to try and carve
out time to step away for long enough to reflect,
to actually think and figure out some of the bigger
cross currents as we wrap up, we always end the
Math and Match with a shout out. You've seen the
(26:02):
great analytical people, You've seen the great creatives up close.
You're a history buff. You've read about him. Who gets
your shout out as the most analytical marketer or business person?
The math person, Alan Turing. I mean, that's a pretty
darn good one. It's the first time someone said that.
So let's go to the creative side. Who's the greatest
creative the magician. I guess you'd probably go, you know,
(26:24):
Steve Jobs. He's been mentioned before. Philip. It's been great
having you here. Congrats on all your success and thanks
for sharing the stories behind it more pleasure. Thanks for
having me, Thanks for listening. I'm Bob Pittman. That's it
for today's episode. Thanks so much for listening to Math
(26:47):
and Magic, a production of I Heart Radio. This show
is hosted by Bob Pittman. Special thanks to Sue Schillinger
for booking and wrangling our wonderful talent, which is no
small feat. Nikki Eatre for pulling research, Bill Plax and
Michael as Are for their recording help, our editor Ryan Murdoch,
and of course Gaile Raoul, Eric Angel, Noel Mango, and
everyone who helped bring this show to your ears. Until
(27:09):
next time,
Host
Bob Pittman
Popular Podcasts
United States of Kennedy
United States of Kennedy is a podcast about our cultural fascination with the Kennedy dynasty. Every week, hosts Lyra Smith and George Civeris go into one aspect of the Kennedy story.
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com