April 6, 2022 • 33 mins
Niles’ mother recounts her arrival on the scene at Jayce’s 42 Sports Bar & Grill and we hear how the evening begins to unfold through her eyes. Kate questions the CEO of Polycam about the online trial then conflict and tensions rise between the members of the hostage negotiation squad.
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:02):
This podcast is a dramatization of fictionalized events that contains
culturally insensitive language and violence. This just then. We're continuing
to follow breaking news out of Los Angeles. A man
identified as Gerald Hayes has kidnapped the police officer and
is in a standoff with the l a p D
(00:23):
his demands that he'd be able to hold an online
vigilante justice trial against his hostage, who he says is
responsible for his son's death. A disturbing video released earlier
this evening shows two police officers and yet another example
of police using excessive force against an African American male
who he presumed to be Gerald Hayes's eighteen year old son,
Niles Hayes. Colleen Sanders, who has been following this story
(00:45):
from the ground for the past few hours, has the
latest Colleen, thank you Ryan, as you can hear behind me.
A wave of protesters have emerged in response to the
video Gerald Hayes released in which officers are seen brutally
attacking his son. This public outcry, of course, all happening
while police are still trying to get Gerald Hayes to
(01:06):
stand down and release kidnapped policeman. Sergeant Place So far,
demonstrations have been peaceful, but riot police have been deployed
and there have already been over half a dozen arrests.
By the time I made my way across town, you
couldn't get a car anywhere near the restaurant. Michelle Hayes,
Niles's mother recounts the police had blocked off the streets
(01:29):
all over the place. I'd say probably for about a
good two miles in every direction. So what did you
do first? I drove around for a bit, just trying
to figure a way in, But eventually I just parked
my car and started walking towards Jase's forty two. As
you were heading towards the restaurant, did you see a
(01:50):
lot of protesters at that time? Though I didn't see anyone,
I could hear them though, went in away. Mam me nervous?
Why because I was in the dark, literally and figuratively.
When I was still in the car, there was nothing
about what was going on playing on the radio, and
my phone had run out of battery. Wait, so you
(02:11):
didn't know about the police attack and Gerald's trial. No, basically,
I just knew something big was going down at Jess
forty two, and that's where Niles and Gerald were, and
I couldn't get in touch with either one of them,
So you didn't know that Niles had already passed. No,
not at that point. It was it was just so strange, Kate.
(02:35):
It was night and I was sort of turned around.
I didn't know exactly where the restaurant was. I couldn't
use the directions on my phone, and for some reason,
the way I was walking, nobody else was around. I
was alone. Well, Michelle, protesters and the media organically gravitated
(03:01):
towards Jason's forty two sports bar and grill. People engaged
with Gerald's online trial as well by the millions. In short,
it had gone viral, But as it turns out, how
this happened may have been because of inorganic reasons. So
how many people actually viewed the initial live link of
Gerald's video post fifty two this is the voice again
(03:23):
of Filbico, CEO of the polycam app okay, And how
many people have viewed it to date? Well, obviously the
numbers isn't static, and it's grown quite a bit since
that day, but it's north of two billion. That's billion
with a B, yes, So how does something like that
even happen. The answer is a few things, some of
(03:46):
which I can answer and some I can't. Okay, well,
that's fair, But am I asking too much of you
to at least break down into categories what you can
answer versus which you can't. Sure? So we have an
algorithm and other data driven software that serves intent with
growth potential to users. Any more information beyond that on
the programming side, and we're getting into proprietary information. So
(04:08):
that's all I can give you in that category. Got it? Okay?
So am I wrong in saying that what you just
said basically means really smart computers program by really smart
people are responsible. Hey guys, guys, guys, guys, I'm gonna
jump in here right now. The voice that just interrupted
is Phil's attorney. I had no idea he was listening
in on the call. As you can tell from his tone,
(04:31):
he's a real pit bull. I'm I'm sorry. Who are you?
David Albright, lead counsel for Polycam, And I'm sure you're
already aware that Polycams in the midst of a civil
lawsuit regards to this case. So I'm going to insist
that Phil's not delve into territories they could potentially complicated
for us legally. For the record, I was aware that
they were in the middle of a civil suit with
the family of Officer Web I'm also aware that Polycham
(04:53):
is planning an I p O in the coming months,
and I'm sure they don't want pending litigation impacting their valuation.
So I put on my nice girl voice and tactfully retreat,
especially since I know Phil has brought a bazuka in
the form of his attorney to my knife right he Look, guys,
I have no problem staying in my swim lane. So
(05:15):
let me just ask you this question a little bit
more broadly, why did Gerald's video go viral? M sure
the two main reasons his post went viral where traditional
media was giving a story a lot of attention, and
because the right user with really high engagement and relevance
shared it to their network. And who was that at
(05:35):
Wolken Sassy? Wait, what you remember from the first episode
that it was at Wolken Sassi's post about Gerald that
started me on this journey. Gerald is a he rolf
of taking medicine to his own hands. And if you
can't see that, then I'm not working with you. Ironically,
interviewing her wasn't a part of my original plan because
I wanted to keep my investigations centered around the people
(05:56):
who actively participated in the events in and around Jase's
forty You that night. But after my discussion with Philobiko,
it appears as though she may have had a significant
influence on the exposure of Gerald's link, and this is
just something I had to follow up on. This is
me hiking upstairs leading to a third floor photography studio
(06:16):
a downtown building doesn't have an elevator, and I'm embarrassed
by how just a few steps has me winded okate.
Most of these influencers and companies out here don't care
about nothing but likes, views, comments, dollars. And since this
is Kimberly Royce, more commonly known as Woken Sassy, she
is chock full of personality and she's probably one of
(06:38):
the most influential people on social media. She's legendary for
her unique take on pop culture, of fashion, beauty, and
social justice. I'm meeting with her in the green room
as she's getting her hair done for a magazine photo shoot.
This is apparently going to be her first cover and
don't get me wrong, Kate. I care about those things too,
especially my money, but care just as much about sense
(07:01):
as I do dollars. That's sense spelled s E N
S E. And what those cops did to that poor
boy didn't make none. So I talked with Philobiko, the
CEO of Pollycam, and he said that Gerald's post went
viral in large part because of the power of your influence.
Come on, now, you weren't born yesterday, were you gay?
(07:22):
So you don't think it was you. Listen. I have
no problem taking credit for everything that I do. But
then boys up in Menlo Park at Pollycam is playing games.
How's that, Kate? Come on, Please don't let the glitz
and the glamour of the smooth taste fool you. I
am a professional, an expert okay seo, data mining, monetization analytics,
(07:42):
click tracking, session recordings. I am up on all of that,
sweet tea, because this is what I do. You think,
I don't know how much attention and money everything I
post share in comment on should get down to the
number of likes and sense by the second and that
one since c E N T S that wasn't me, honey,
that was all back in and I am not talking
(08:04):
about my dairy air either. And when you say that
was all back end, what do you mean by that? Eight?
I usually charge nine an hour for consulting. But I
like you, so I'm gonna sprinkle this little knowledge are
away for free. Every social media app you use and love,
you access it through the front end. Okay, the people
who make the app run the back end, which is
(08:26):
usually not as pretty as the front end, with the
flashy graphics and all that. But on the back end
there are always tools to push whatever content they want
to make sure users see. Well. In all fairness, Polycham
did credit their algorithm with amplifying Gerald's post. Please please,
please please stop. Ain't no computer smart enough to take
somebody's post who has zero followers and make it blow
(08:48):
up the way it did somebody up in their office
press click on select all and push that thing to
everybody in the system. So you're saying it was manual
a hundred per cent. And why would they do that?
Because people out here don't care about nothing but likes us, comments,
(09:08):
dollars and cents. Bull and talking to fill in his
lawyer from Polly Cham, it was obvious that they weren't
being totally transparent, but my short conversation with Kimberly definitely
highlighted the potential liability Polycam was facing if Gerald's post
was manually promoted by one of its employees, but irrespective
of whether or not Pollycam tampered with the growth of
(09:29):
Gerald's post on the back end, or if news stations
picking up the story had an impact on exposing the link.
From the time Gerald ended his live stream to less
than an hour later, the number of views went from
a hundred and fifty two to north of ten million.
So if the police hostage negotiation team and the trailer
felt like they were behind the eight ball before Gerald's post,
(09:52):
it doesn't take much imagination to realize how much additional
pressure this put on them. Commander Ammon's reflects, Yeah, I
definitely that feeling of being caught between the hammer and
the anvil. Okay, And it wasn't just me either, because
you could just sense the tension rising in my team
during our discussions about what to do next. Discussion. It
(10:13):
wasn't a discussion, it was borderline mutiny. This is Detective
Patterson per usual. His version of events tend to be
more unvarnished. Oh please tell me you have a recording
of this too, Cage, What do you think of me?
I just go around recording every conversation I've ever been in. Oh,
(10:33):
of course not. It just said, so far you have
come up with some pretty awesome tapes, Curtis. I'm sorry,
there's no offense not taking. I just wanted to set
the record straight. I only secretly record conversations on rare occasions. Hobbes,
on the other hand, now that's a different story altogether.
Can you set the stage for us on this? Yeah,
(10:55):
so I had worked up a pretty decent amount of
venttel to present to the commander, based on your old
video and other sources I had pulled together. This is
Sergeant Hobbs speaking. Detective Patterson and I both felt that
I had put together researched strong enough to convince Emmon's
that we had a better understanding of Gerald and you know,
how do I say this? We also felt the two
(11:16):
of us just had a better vibe of the overall
interpersonal dynamics between Gerald and Jason, or Jason Martin, or
even Gerald and Martin. Is it fair to say you
guys were feeling confident? Yes, So is it also fair
to say that you thought Detective Homer wasn't the right
negotiation lead for this case. You're putting me on the spot.
That wouldn't necessarily say that. What would you say? Patterson
(11:41):
was going to champion my intel and get me an
audience with the commander. If I just walked into the
trailer and said I had something, it would probably go nowhere.
Homer and I didn't have that type of rapport. So
the fact that Patterson, who I get along with great,
was willing to vouch for my work was a definite plus.
So anyway, we enter the command trail and I'm sort
of sitting back when for Paterson and give me a
(12:02):
nod to chime in, When all of a sudden, Captain
Florence starts screaming. That's when I reach into my pocket
and triggered the record. But no, myself, what was it
about the outburst from Flora's that made you start recording? No?
Call it a reflex, This is bullshit. Something on your mind,
Captain Commander. We need to take this building now. This
negotiation is fucked, hasn't gotten us in any work, And
(12:25):
if you ask me, I only think it's made things worse.
You ever stop to consider, there's a reason nobody asked
you let the command to do his job, and you do.
You in search of places position, I prefer somebody around
here grow a pair and put up a fight. Captain, Sir,
I'm just saying this guy Gerald has shown his cars
and it's clear zero respect for us by the way
(12:46):
he's talking to this clown. You got running the negotiation,
you Florence, you want to go a fucking knock you, then, hey, hey,
knock it off. Captain. I'm not gonna warn you again.
Get your ship together, understood it, understand Paumer, get the
entergy back in the throw line now, well, thanks for
(13:07):
getting Chippy inside the command trailer. The pressure inside the
restaurant was intensifying as well. That sounds you're hearing is
Martin Simms wheeling Sergeant Place from the dining room area
back into the kitchen. But what you're about to hear
next is one of those things that pop up when
researching a project like this. When there's an embarrassment of
riches as it relates to footage and other recorded sources, Inevitably,
(13:31):
editorial decisions have to be made about what's important to
keep versus what should be left on the cutting room floor.
I was on the fence about this moment, and after
vigorous debate with my team, I was still undecided. But
ultimately Martin said something that actually convinced me to keep it.
An extreme situation like the one we had that day
(13:53):
and night, you can learn certain things by certain truths
about life. What truth did you learn? That dignity is
a part of our survival mechanism? That's interesting. Yeah. It
sort of acts like a canary in the coal wine
for you, because when you feel you didn't get slipping away,
it's a clear sign that you're in mortal danger. It's
(14:16):
like being a passenger in a car driving a hundred
miles per hour and then you suddenly see a road
sign that reads stop, clip ahead three feet Yeah, And
when you go with and pass a sign like that,
all of a sudden you're thinking yourself, I hope there's
(14:36):
enough road here. We're gonna go fly over that edge.
What Martin is referring to is the moment right after
he wield Sergeant Place back into the kitchen, where again
the two people who wanted most to get out of
the bar were about as far away from Gerald as
they could be. Listen, I need to go, trust me, man, God,
the restroom they've been holding for hours. Oh um, let
(15:03):
me ask Geral. No, don't stop, don't ask him, right,
all right, German, what are you gonna do yourself? Use
a bucket or applied or something? Oh all right, yeah, man,
can you feel my fingers? You canna help me? So
(15:25):
now I'm sitting there, its cops, penis and out one
hand and helping him relieve himself in the bugget I'm
holding with my old hand and yeah, okay, let me.
The whole situation was a mess, but I think the
indignity of that moment is both thinking the same thing.
(15:48):
You clip up bed. They're probably not going to survive this.
So then he starts angling on me, kind of how
I've been working on Chase. I don't policeman. It was
with the outside off the web. He just got married.
I'm sorry to hear that. I'm not gonna make it either.
(16:11):
Look at me a blood Hey, you see me on
the back the front. They treat the whole fire in
these situations. If I die, it doesn't matter what you're saying,
You're gonna be accessory. Look at life, imprison or worse
(16:34):
some compute they do. That came over you now, hero.
Sergeant Place cuts the conversation abruptly as he sees Gerald
entered the kitchen. Who just stands there imposingly for fifteen seconds. Eventually,
Martin sort of cowers and scoots around Gerald to exit
(16:55):
to the main bar area, leaving Gerald in Sergeant Place alone.
This doesn't over you, you know that, right? The sting
you think you're doing this stupid fucking trial. Oh the
attention and a power to control you think you have
still an't take it away from you, and that's just
you haveing nothing. Gerald noticed thing this thing And when
(17:17):
my boy died, the only thing I have a control
in my entire life was raising my fun and he
drum that man, you cast it in now, Jesse. Yeah,
things were starting to get a little. Harry. Gerald is
desperate because he just lost Niles. So just placed his
desperate because he's bleeding out and having a pistol ship
(17:39):
in the bucket. And you know Martin's desperate just because look,
he just ain't built for ship like this. And what
about you? I was pressed, whdn't say I was desperate?
Feel me? I guess I've had my head knocked around
too many times be scared like that. Plus I was
self medicating heavily, so I still had my normal you know,
my normal cool, you know what I mean. But probably
(18:00):
the main reason I wasn't overly concerned with the police
standoff at the time because I was still distracted putting
out another fire? What fire? Invest the problems? First? Money?
You know my bar was Big Age, and he just
kept calling me that day. Hey, did you just say
that Big Age invested in Jason's forty two? Yeah? Don't
you know that? The same Big Age that saw Gerald
and yes, the same Big Age that would end up Yes. Wow,
(18:25):
mm hmmm. He does not strike me as the type
of guy you want to be in debt too. You
ain't saying none but a word. Did you ever answer
his call too? What do you say, run me my money,
Big Age? Were you really expecting Jays to pay you
back in the middle of a standoff? I mean, you
got to look at it from my perspective, Jason had
been gassing me up about this damn restaurant and milked
(18:46):
me for over a year and a half. How much
did you end up investing? Too much? I was all
money in and no money out. Then I look up
on TV. Now just dead Gerald is gang banging again,
but through the internet, and you got the whole l
A p D outside of my building ready to light
the entire block up. I mean, come on, it seemed
like this was a kind of scenario to what they
(19:08):
needed some advice to help them figure out on how
not to trick off what I had put in. So
what was the advice. I wouldn't call it advice, more
like an ultimated You know, Age was like, Jason, you
need to figure out how to resolve this situation quick
because what you've got going on is bad for business. Okay,
but look, you also had to understand me. G and
(19:28):
Big Age I've known each other for a long time
since we was kids. So even though Big Age was
riding on me about business, he also wanted me to
tell Gerald that if he needed anything, he would be
that far. And what do you think that meant? At
the time, I figured he meant help with like funeral expenses,
that's sort of thing, But that was just an add
on message. His main point was that I needed to
(19:48):
figure out a way to get out of this mess.
So its money wouldn't flush down the toilet. And it's
not it's not like I disagreed with him, you know.
But the problem was as soon as I got off
the front with HS, it's coming at me kind of
crazy again. Here's part of that exchange between Jason Gerald.
No more fucking vocal what man? That was just big
(20:09):
to let you know that he got you. If you
need anything, fucking talk too much, man, that's me for real,
force out of here. You need to start include me.
You don't need decisions. You make it. You ain't, man,
Shut the funk up, stay on the fucking phone. What
you can't bust me upside the head and let me
do what you want. I ain't want. No, you're right,
(20:30):
you're right, Jase. I won't do you like Martin. I'll
shoot you. I wasn't that medicated. Did you think he'd
really shoot? Well? Yeah, but not like with malice in
his heart and anything like that. It's just that if
he said he was gonna do a thing, he's gonna
do a thing, you know. I mean, the man has
his principles. What principle was that that was the principal. Love,
(20:50):
get the funk out my way. But you know, O Kate.
I think a negotiator's mind works differently than most other people.
I've lost count of how many beers Detective Patterson has had,
but it's a lot. To his credit, though the alcohol
doesn't seem to have any effect on his faculties when
everyone else is panicking about the video, all I'm seeing
(21:10):
this multiple ways in When you say away in you
mean like a way into the building, yes, and no,
by way in, I primarily mean a way into the
HD's heart, into the HD's mind, into the soul. Even
m there was a treasure trove of information at Jerald's
video For starters, we picked up Gerald Hayes name. We
(21:33):
see j Shaw in the video and he's mentioned by
name as well. Sergeant placed teed up for us that
Jerald's probably a convicted felon. So now we're able to
run his record into the system and get back even
more info, which then allow Hobbs to take everything we
got and create a profile of who and what we're
exactly dealing with. Also the Hobbes's credit, he did just
(21:56):
put together a profile to Gerald. He also profiled j
I was able to I D Martin Simms and model
up something for him too. Wow, how did he do that?
Detective for Kate, Detective for Sergeant Hobbs proudly remembers, I
ran the plates of all the cars that had been
sitting on the streets since we arrived on the scene.
Once we got the vehicle's owner's names, like Google searched
(22:19):
those with Jason Shaw, Martin Simms had multiple hits. So
I researched him and found out what I needed to know,
which was he used to be a recruiter for sports
agencies and we get close to star prospects while they
were still in college, high school, even there was his
job to get these athletes whatever they wanted, cash, cars, girls, drugs.
(22:40):
He delivered players to Corporate America, and he got a
fat commission once he signed. And what did that tell you?
He most likely it's not an HT, he's a bystander,
probably another hostage. So if I'm a negotiators p o V,
all this stuff is invaluable, the profiles, the models. But
(23:03):
you want to know what the most important thing I
heard in Gerald's video? You know, I do. Gerald believed
that everything he was doing was for his son, whether
it was jumping on the cops outside, was starting his
online trial. So now I know what makes this guy tick.
You give me that, and the odds are I'm going
(23:25):
to be able to talk you down. Yeah, it wasn't
home or the one doing the talking at that point,
no one was doing the talking. Joe hadn't picked up
the throw line since he started his trial, and the
bigger problem was people were voting. So what changed the commander?
Listen to this recording from inside the police trailer where
we hear Ammond's put the screws to his team following
the insubordinate outburst from Captain flores Things got a bit
(23:48):
heated earlier, but I wanted to be clear that I'm
not going to tolerate misconduct, Yes, sir, What was that? Yes, sir,
Captain Florence before I make the necessary personnel change this
team them. Do you ever think you want to set
to the group? Sorry from my out verser, won't happen again, sir,
It certainly won't, and I haven't said that. I thought, Man,
(24:10):
it's going to firefloor as on the spot going forward.
If we get through to the HT again, Detective Patterson,
you'll be taking over commanded, you do. You can't really
expect that, my decision is final. I mean, I was stunned,
but why didn't you and Hobbes pitch him on doing
(24:32):
just that we did? But the Commander didn't show his
cards at all. And I'm trained the spot when somebody's
hiding with their thinking. He tipped nothing. And you have
to understand, Halmer and the Commander are boys. They go
fishing trips together with their families, they coach a basketball
team together. They're tight. So, Commander, I have to ask,
(24:54):
when you tap Detective Patterson to replace Homer as lead negotiator,
why didn't you have someone take over it for Captain
Flores as well? What do you mean? Well, from what
I hear, he was pretty disrespectful towards you after Gerald
announced his trial, and ironically, it was Homer who had
your back the most. Okay, okay, Stan is a good
(25:17):
friend and a great cop. But after giving him a
couple of runs and negotiating with Gerald, I just didn't
feel like he was the right man for this particular scenario.
And as far as Captain Flores was concerned, there was
just no way that I was going to relieve someone
with that much experience from his post in the middle
of a standoff. Sure we had words, but given the circumstances,
I felt that was just one of those blows I
(25:38):
needed to absorb and then quickly get him back in line,
which he did, and I'm glad he did too, because
he wasn't just responsible for tactical as it related to
the standoff. He was also overseeing crowd control. Okay, the
professional protesters were showing up in droves, and there's just
nobody in the department that has as much knowledge and
experience as Flora's when it comes to x acuting on
(26:00):
both of those disciplines. I have to tell you, given
all that was going on at this point in the evening,
a tactical assault was an option that was becoming increasingly
more attractive than bottom line. I needed Flora's for that.
I can't point that you can say here the taser
(26:57):
adventurablele art of every when I we elevated, did Ryan
here have had this flash protectors? Have? Colleen Sanders looks
back on her reporting. This wasn't just local news anymore.
The story was picked up nationally, so our feed was
(27:18):
being broadcast directly to Ryan Smith's nightly show. I don't
know what his numbers are today, but at the time
he had the best ratings on cable in the country.
So when I say this was everywhere, it was everywhere, which,
to be honest, Kate, this was a big deal for
me professionally speaking. So basically, I'm literally doing the biggest
(27:44):
report of my career. When over the chanting crowds, I
hear one of the protesters screaming, this is the this
is the mother, this is n I'm reporting live when
I hear that man yell out, this is Niles's mother,
and I look over my shoulder and I see this
(28:06):
woman standing there on the opposite side of this somewhat
porous row of riot police, and she's just kind of
getting bumped around by this flood of people marching through.
And to this day, I don't know what came over me,
but I just marched through the police line, grabbed her
(28:31):
and started pulling her back onto our side of the perimeter. Hey,
why are you doing. Don't do that the side. Okay,
she's with that, she's with that, And somehow I got
her through. So now we're back inside that outer ring
that I talked about before. And to be honest, I
(28:54):
wasn't even sure if this was really Niles's mother. But
if it was, I just I just knew I had
to grab her. Mind you, this is all happening on
national television live. The camera is still on me and
it's on her too, So I just asked her, are
(29:14):
you notice Haye's mother? Yeah? Yeah, Then she leans close
into my ear and says something. I look at the
camera without a doubt, the biggest moment of my career.
Then I looked back at her. Then I called out,
cut it. Call you were, I don't care. We're not
(29:38):
going to use her like that. Cut it now, right,
She's not ready, right, she got to be ready. In
the footage, we can't hear what Michelle said to you.
I know, do you mind sharing that with us? I
have thought about this a lot, for both professional and
(30:01):
personal reasons, and I'm not certain if it's so much
what she said as how she did it. What do
you mean She sort of leaned away from the microphone
and spoke in my ear, and it disarmed me. It
(30:22):
got intimate. Yeah, I mean you know how it is, Kate.
When you're in the field, a microphone can almost act
like an emotional shield between you and your subject, and
anyway she she asked, is what they're saying true? Did
they kill my baby? Yeah? So her question did three things. One,
(30:51):
I felt completely confident that this was in fact Nel's mother. Two,
it made me realize that she knew less than I did.
And Third, I went from seeing her as a great
exclusive interview to someone who needed help. So I had
to make a split second decision. Do I do this
(31:14):
to her, do what you know, open her up, raw
wounded and feed her to the audience, or do I
give her a minute as a human being, as a
mother to catch up to what everyone else had already learned?
(31:36):
The Niles was gone exactly Okay, So that was my
big moment. I don't know, Maybe I just don't have
that killer instinct, you know. I always thought I did,
But m hm, when it counted, I didn't pull the trigger. Hello,
(32:01):
there's a Detective Patterson Los Angeles. I am your negotiator.
Next time. Hashtag Matter, starring Amen Joseph as Gerald Hayes,
(32:28):
Jennifer Christopher as Kate Bell, Steve Harris as Jason shaw Hayley,
Joel Osmond as Sergeant Place, Pooch Hall as Martin Simms,
and Snoop Dogg as Big h additional performances by Nile
Bullock as Nile's Hayes, Serena Pouncey as Michelle Hayes, Monte
(32:50):
Russell as Detective Patterson, and Alex Vaughan as Darrell Hanover.
Hashtag Matter was written and directed by Dylan C. Brown.
Our executive producers are Sandy Bailey, Lauren Holman, Dylan Brown,
Winnie Kemp, and Aimon Joseph. Audio designed by Wolf at
(33:10):
the Door, Sound design and mix by Josh Falcon, music
by Jonathan Sandford, edited by Darren Bowland, and our sound
director is Alexander Kemp. Produced by Toby Lawless and Lucy Jones.
Casting by Lawless Casting. Hashtag Matter is a production of
(33:32):
Shonda land Audio in partnership with I Heart Radio and
an association with Wolf at the Door. For more podcasts
from shot Land Audio, visit the I Heart Radio app,
Apple podcast, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.
This podcast is a dramatization of fictionalized events that contains
culturally insensitive language and violence. This just then. We're continuing
to follow breaking news out of Los Angeles. A man
identified as Gerald Hayes has kidnapped the police officer and
is in a standoff with the l a p D
(00:23):
his demands that he'd be able to hold an online
vigilante justice trial against his hostage, who he says is
responsible for his son's death. A disturbing video released earlier
this evening shows two police officers and yet another example
of police using excessive force against an African American male
who he presumed to be Gerald Hayes's eighteen year old son,
Niles Hayes. Colleen Sanders, who has been following this story
(00:45):
from the ground for the past few hours, has the
latest Colleen, thank you Ryan, as you can hear behind me.
A wave of protesters have emerged in response to the
video Gerald Hayes released in which officers are seen brutally
attacking his son. This public outcry, of course, all happening
while police are still trying to get Gerald Hayes to
(01:06):
stand down and release kidnapped policeman. Sergeant Place So far,
demonstrations have been peaceful, but riot police have been deployed
and there have already been over half a dozen arrests.
By the time I made my way across town, you
couldn't get a car anywhere near the restaurant. Michelle Hayes,
Niles's mother recounts the police had blocked off the streets
(01:29):
all over the place. I'd say probably for about a
good two miles in every direction. So what did you
do first? I drove around for a bit, just trying
to figure a way in, But eventually I just parked
my car and started walking towards Jase's forty two. As
you were heading towards the restaurant, did you see a
(01:50):
lot of protesters at that time? Though I didn't see anyone,
I could hear them though, went in away. Mam me nervous?
Why because I was in the dark, literally and figuratively.
When I was still in the car, there was nothing
about what was going on playing on the radio, and
my phone had run out of battery. Wait, so you
(02:11):
didn't know about the police attack and Gerald's trial. No, basically,
I just knew something big was going down at Jess
forty two, and that's where Niles and Gerald were, and
I couldn't get in touch with either one of them,
So you didn't know that Niles had already passed. No,
not at that point. It was it was just so strange, Kate.
(02:35):
It was night and I was sort of turned around.
I didn't know exactly where the restaurant was. I couldn't
use the directions on my phone, and for some reason,
the way I was walking, nobody else was around. I
was alone. Well, Michelle, protesters and the media organically gravitated
(03:01):
towards Jason's forty two sports bar and grill. People engaged
with Gerald's online trial as well by the millions. In short,
it had gone viral, But as it turns out, how
this happened may have been because of inorganic reasons. So
how many people actually viewed the initial live link of
Gerald's video post fifty two this is the voice again
(03:23):
of Filbico, CEO of the polycam app okay, And how
many people have viewed it to date? Well, obviously the
numbers isn't static, and it's grown quite a bit since
that day, but it's north of two billion. That's billion
with a B, yes, So how does something like that
even happen. The answer is a few things, some of
(03:46):
which I can answer and some I can't. Okay, well,
that's fair, But am I asking too much of you
to at least break down into categories what you can
answer versus which you can't. Sure? So we have an
algorithm and other data driven software that serves intent with
growth potential to users. Any more information beyond that on
the programming side, and we're getting into proprietary information. So
(04:08):
that's all I can give you in that category. Got it? Okay?
So am I wrong in saying that what you just
said basically means really smart computers program by really smart
people are responsible. Hey guys, guys, guys, guys, I'm gonna
jump in here right now. The voice that just interrupted
is Phil's attorney. I had no idea he was listening
in on the call. As you can tell from his tone,
(04:31):
he's a real pit bull. I'm I'm sorry. Who are you?
David Albright, lead counsel for Polycam, And I'm sure you're
already aware that Polycams in the midst of a civil
lawsuit regards to this case. So I'm going to insist
that Phil's not delve into territories they could potentially complicated
for us legally. For the record, I was aware that
they were in the middle of a civil suit with
the family of Officer Web I'm also aware that Polycham
(04:53):
is planning an I p O in the coming months,
and I'm sure they don't want pending litigation impacting their valuation.
So I put on my nice girl voice and tactfully retreat,
especially since I know Phil has brought a bazuka in
the form of his attorney to my knife right he Look, guys,
I have no problem staying in my swim lane. So
(05:15):
let me just ask you this question a little bit
more broadly, why did Gerald's video go viral? M sure
the two main reasons his post went viral where traditional
media was giving a story a lot of attention, and
because the right user with really high engagement and relevance
shared it to their network. And who was that at
(05:35):
Wolken Sassy? Wait, what you remember from the first episode
that it was at Wolken Sassi's post about Gerald that
started me on this journey. Gerald is a he rolf
of taking medicine to his own hands. And if you
can't see that, then I'm not working with you. Ironically,
interviewing her wasn't a part of my original plan because
I wanted to keep my investigations centered around the people
(05:56):
who actively participated in the events in and around Jase's
forty You that night. But after my discussion with Philobiko,
it appears as though she may have had a significant
influence on the exposure of Gerald's link, and this is
just something I had to follow up on. This is
me hiking upstairs leading to a third floor photography studio
(06:16):
a downtown building doesn't have an elevator, and I'm embarrassed
by how just a few steps has me winded okate.
Most of these influencers and companies out here don't care
about nothing but likes, views, comments, dollars. And since this
is Kimberly Royce, more commonly known as Woken Sassy, she
is chock full of personality and she's probably one of
(06:38):
the most influential people on social media. She's legendary for
her unique take on pop culture, of fashion, beauty, and
social justice. I'm meeting with her in the green room
as she's getting her hair done for a magazine photo shoot.
This is apparently going to be her first cover and
don't get me wrong, Kate. I care about those things too,
especially my money, but care just as much about sense
(07:01):
as I do dollars. That's sense spelled s E N
S E. And what those cops did to that poor
boy didn't make none. So I talked with Philobiko, the
CEO of Pollycam, and he said that Gerald's post went
viral in large part because of the power of your influence.
Come on, now, you weren't born yesterday, were you gay?
(07:22):
So you don't think it was you. Listen. I have
no problem taking credit for everything that I do. But
then boys up in Menlo Park at Pollycam is playing games.
How's that, Kate? Come on, Please don't let the glitz
and the glamour of the smooth taste fool you. I
am a professional, an expert okay seo, data mining, monetization analytics,
(07:42):
click tracking, session recordings. I am up on all of that,
sweet tea, because this is what I do. You think,
I don't know how much attention and money everything I
post share in comment on should get down to the
number of likes and sense by the second and that
one since c E N T S that wasn't me, honey,
that was all back in and I am not talking
(08:04):
about my dairy air either. And when you say that
was all back end, what do you mean by that? Eight?
I usually charge nine an hour for consulting. But I
like you, so I'm gonna sprinkle this little knowledge are
away for free. Every social media app you use and love,
you access it through the front end. Okay, the people
who make the app run the back end, which is
(08:26):
usually not as pretty as the front end, with the
flashy graphics and all that. But on the back end
there are always tools to push whatever content they want
to make sure users see. Well. In all fairness, Polycham
did credit their algorithm with amplifying Gerald's post. Please please,
please please stop. Ain't no computer smart enough to take
somebody's post who has zero followers and make it blow
(08:48):
up the way it did somebody up in their office
press click on select all and push that thing to
everybody in the system. So you're saying it was manual
a hundred per cent. And why would they do that?
Because people out here don't care about nothing but likes us, comments,
(09:08):
dollars and cents. Bull and talking to fill in his
lawyer from Polly Cham, it was obvious that they weren't
being totally transparent, but my short conversation with Kimberly definitely
highlighted the potential liability Polycam was facing if Gerald's post
was manually promoted by one of its employees, but irrespective
of whether or not Pollycam tampered with the growth of
(09:29):
Gerald's post on the back end, or if news stations
picking up the story had an impact on exposing the link.
From the time Gerald ended his live stream to less
than an hour later, the number of views went from
a hundred and fifty two to north of ten million.
So if the police hostage negotiation team and the trailer
felt like they were behind the eight ball before Gerald's post,
(09:52):
it doesn't take much imagination to realize how much additional
pressure this put on them. Commander Ammon's reflects, Yeah, I
definitely that feeling of being caught between the hammer and
the anvil. Okay, And it wasn't just me either, because
you could just sense the tension rising in my team
during our discussions about what to do next. Discussion. It
(10:13):
wasn't a discussion, it was borderline mutiny. This is Detective
Patterson per usual. His version of events tend to be
more unvarnished. Oh please tell me you have a recording
of this too, Cage, What do you think of me?
I just go around recording every conversation I've ever been in. Oh,
(10:33):
of course not. It just said, so far you have
come up with some pretty awesome tapes, Curtis. I'm sorry,
there's no offense not taking. I just wanted to set
the record straight. I only secretly record conversations on rare occasions. Hobbes,
on the other hand, now that's a different story altogether.
Can you set the stage for us on this? Yeah,
(10:55):
so I had worked up a pretty decent amount of
venttel to present to the commander, based on your old
video and other sources I had pulled together. This is
Sergeant Hobbs speaking. Detective Patterson and I both felt that
I had put together researched strong enough to convince Emmon's
that we had a better understanding of Gerald and you know,
how do I say this? We also felt the two
(11:16):
of us just had a better vibe of the overall
interpersonal dynamics between Gerald and Jason, or Jason Martin, or
even Gerald and Martin. Is it fair to say you
guys were feeling confident? Yes, So is it also fair
to say that you thought Detective Homer wasn't the right
negotiation lead for this case. You're putting me on the spot.
That wouldn't necessarily say that. What would you say? Patterson
(11:41):
was going to champion my intel and get me an
audience with the commander. If I just walked into the
trailer and said I had something, it would probably go nowhere.
Homer and I didn't have that type of rapport. So
the fact that Patterson, who I get along with great,
was willing to vouch for my work was a definite plus.
So anyway, we enter the command trail and I'm sort
of sitting back when for Paterson and give me a
(12:02):
nod to chime in, When all of a sudden, Captain
Florence starts screaming. That's when I reach into my pocket
and triggered the record. But no, myself, what was it
about the outburst from Flora's that made you start recording? No?
Call it a reflex, This is bullshit. Something on your mind,
Captain Commander. We need to take this building now. This
negotiation is fucked, hasn't gotten us in any work, And
(12:25):
if you ask me, I only think it's made things worse.
You ever stop to consider, there's a reason nobody asked
you let the command to do his job, and you do.
You in search of places position, I prefer somebody around
here grow a pair and put up a fight. Captain, Sir,
I'm just saying this guy Gerald has shown his cars
and it's clear zero respect for us by the way
(12:46):
he's talking to this clown. You got running the negotiation,
you Florence, you want to go a fucking knock you, then, hey, hey,
knock it off. Captain. I'm not gonna warn you again.
Get your ship together, understood it, understand Paumer, get the
entergy back in the throw line now, well, thanks for
(13:07):
getting Chippy inside the command trailer. The pressure inside the
restaurant was intensifying as well. That sounds you're hearing is
Martin Simms wheeling Sergeant Place from the dining room area
back into the kitchen. But what you're about to hear
next is one of those things that pop up when
researching a project like this. When there's an embarrassment of
riches as it relates to footage and other recorded sources, Inevitably,
(13:31):
editorial decisions have to be made about what's important to
keep versus what should be left on the cutting room floor.
I was on the fence about this moment, and after
vigorous debate with my team, I was still undecided. But
ultimately Martin said something that actually convinced me to keep it.
An extreme situation like the one we had that day
(13:53):
and night, you can learn certain things by certain truths
about life. What truth did you learn? That dignity is
a part of our survival mechanism? That's interesting. Yeah. It
sort of acts like a canary in the coal wine
for you, because when you feel you didn't get slipping away,
it's a clear sign that you're in mortal danger. It's
(14:16):
like being a passenger in a car driving a hundred
miles per hour and then you suddenly see a road
sign that reads stop, clip ahead three feet Yeah, And
when you go with and pass a sign like that,
all of a sudden you're thinking yourself, I hope there's
(14:36):
enough road here. We're gonna go fly over that edge.
What Martin is referring to is the moment right after
he wield Sergeant Place back into the kitchen, where again
the two people who wanted most to get out of
the bar were about as far away from Gerald as
they could be. Listen, I need to go, trust me, man, God,
the restroom they've been holding for hours. Oh um, let
(15:03):
me ask Geral. No, don't stop, don't ask him, right,
all right, German, what are you gonna do yourself? Use
a bucket or applied or something? Oh all right, yeah, man,
can you feel my fingers? You canna help me? So
(15:25):
now I'm sitting there, its cops, penis and out one
hand and helping him relieve himself in the bugget I'm
holding with my old hand and yeah, okay, let me.
The whole situation was a mess, but I think the
indignity of that moment is both thinking the same thing.
(15:48):
You clip up bed. They're probably not going to survive this.
So then he starts angling on me, kind of how
I've been working on Chase. I don't policeman. It was
with the outside off the web. He just got married.
I'm sorry to hear that. I'm not gonna make it either.
(16:11):
Look at me a blood Hey, you see me on
the back the front. They treat the whole fire in
these situations. If I die, it doesn't matter what you're saying,
You're gonna be accessory. Look at life, imprison or worse
(16:34):
some compute they do. That came over you now, hero.
Sergeant Place cuts the conversation abruptly as he sees Gerald
entered the kitchen. Who just stands there imposingly for fifteen seconds. Eventually,
Martin sort of cowers and scoots around Gerald to exit
(16:55):
to the main bar area, leaving Gerald in Sergeant Place alone.
This doesn't over you, you know that, right? The sting
you think you're doing this stupid fucking trial. Oh the
attention and a power to control you think you have
still an't take it away from you, and that's just
you haveing nothing. Gerald noticed thing this thing And when
(17:17):
my boy died, the only thing I have a control
in my entire life was raising my fun and he
drum that man, you cast it in now, Jesse. Yeah,
things were starting to get a little. Harry. Gerald is
desperate because he just lost Niles. So just placed his
desperate because he's bleeding out and having a pistol ship
(17:39):
in the bucket. And you know Martin's desperate just because look,
he just ain't built for ship like this. And what
about you? I was pressed, whdn't say I was desperate?
Feel me? I guess I've had my head knocked around
too many times be scared like that. Plus I was
self medicating heavily, so I still had my normal you know,
my normal cool, you know what I mean. But probably
(18:00):
the main reason I wasn't overly concerned with the police
standoff at the time because I was still distracted putting
out another fire? What fire? Invest the problems? First? Money?
You know my bar was Big Age, and he just
kept calling me that day. Hey, did you just say
that Big Age invested in Jason's forty two? Yeah? Don't
you know that? The same Big Age that saw Gerald
and yes, the same Big Age that would end up Yes. Wow,
(18:25):
mm hmmm. He does not strike me as the type
of guy you want to be in debt too. You
ain't saying none but a word. Did you ever answer
his call too? What do you say, run me my money,
Big Age? Were you really expecting Jays to pay you
back in the middle of a standoff? I mean, you
got to look at it from my perspective, Jason had
been gassing me up about this damn restaurant and milked
(18:46):
me for over a year and a half. How much
did you end up investing? Too much? I was all
money in and no money out. Then I look up
on TV. Now just dead Gerald is gang banging again,
but through the internet, and you got the whole l
A p D outside of my building ready to light
the entire block up. I mean, come on, it seemed
like this was a kind of scenario to what they
(19:08):
needed some advice to help them figure out on how
not to trick off what I had put in. So
what was the advice. I wouldn't call it advice, more
like an ultimated You know, Age was like, Jason, you
need to figure out how to resolve this situation quick
because what you've got going on is bad for business. Okay,
but look, you also had to understand me. G and
(19:28):
Big Age I've known each other for a long time
since we was kids. So even though Big Age was
riding on me about business, he also wanted me to
tell Gerald that if he needed anything, he would be
that far. And what do you think that meant? At
the time, I figured he meant help with like funeral expenses,
that's sort of thing, But that was just an add
on message. His main point was that I needed to
(19:48):
figure out a way to get out of this mess.
So its money wouldn't flush down the toilet. And it's
not it's not like I disagreed with him, you know.
But the problem was as soon as I got off
the front with HS, it's coming at me kind of
crazy again. Here's part of that exchange between Jason Gerald.
No more fucking vocal what man? That was just big
(20:09):
to let you know that he got you. If you
need anything, fucking talk too much, man, that's me for real,
force out of here. You need to start include me.
You don't need decisions. You make it. You ain't, man,
Shut the funk up, stay on the fucking phone. What
you can't bust me upside the head and let me
do what you want. I ain't want. No, you're right,
(20:30):
you're right, Jase. I won't do you like Martin. I'll
shoot you. I wasn't that medicated. Did you think he'd
really shoot? Well? Yeah, but not like with malice in
his heart and anything like that. It's just that if
he said he was gonna do a thing, he's gonna
do a thing, you know. I mean, the man has
his principles. What principle was that that was the principal. Love,
(20:50):
get the funk out my way. But you know, O Kate.
I think a negotiator's mind works differently than most other people.
I've lost count of how many beers Detective Patterson has had,
but it's a lot. To his credit, though the alcohol
doesn't seem to have any effect on his faculties when
everyone else is panicking about the video, all I'm seeing
(21:10):
this multiple ways in When you say away in you
mean like a way into the building, yes, and no,
by way in, I primarily mean a way into the
HD's heart, into the HD's mind, into the soul. Even
m there was a treasure trove of information at Jerald's
video For starters, we picked up Gerald Hayes name. We
(21:33):
see j Shaw in the video and he's mentioned by
name as well. Sergeant placed teed up for us that
Jerald's probably a convicted felon. So now we're able to
run his record into the system and get back even
more info, which then allow Hobbs to take everything we
got and create a profile of who and what we're
exactly dealing with. Also the Hobbes's credit, he did just
(21:56):
put together a profile to Gerald. He also profiled j
I was able to I D Martin Simms and model
up something for him too. Wow, how did he do that?
Detective for Kate, Detective for Sergeant Hobbs proudly remembers, I
ran the plates of all the cars that had been
sitting on the streets since we arrived on the scene.
Once we got the vehicle's owner's names, like Google searched
(22:19):
those with Jason Shaw, Martin Simms had multiple hits. So
I researched him and found out what I needed to know,
which was he used to be a recruiter for sports
agencies and we get close to star prospects while they
were still in college, high school, even there was his
job to get these athletes whatever they wanted, cash, cars, girls, drugs.
(22:40):
He delivered players to Corporate America, and he got a
fat commission once he signed. And what did that tell you?
He most likely it's not an HT, he's a bystander,
probably another hostage. So if I'm a negotiators p o V,
all this stuff is invaluable, the profiles, the models. But
(23:03):
you want to know what the most important thing I
heard in Gerald's video? You know, I do. Gerald believed
that everything he was doing was for his son, whether
it was jumping on the cops outside, was starting his
online trial. So now I know what makes this guy tick.
You give me that, and the odds are I'm going
(23:25):
to be able to talk you down. Yeah, it wasn't
home or the one doing the talking at that point,
no one was doing the talking. Joe hadn't picked up
the throw line since he started his trial, and the
bigger problem was people were voting. So what changed the commander?
Listen to this recording from inside the police trailer where
we hear Ammond's put the screws to his team following
the insubordinate outburst from Captain flores Things got a bit
(23:48):
heated earlier, but I wanted to be clear that I'm
not going to tolerate misconduct, Yes, sir, What was that? Yes, sir,
Captain Florence before I make the necessary personnel change this
team them. Do you ever think you want to set
to the group? Sorry from my out verser, won't happen again, sir,
It certainly won't, and I haven't said that. I thought, Man,
(24:10):
it's going to firefloor as on the spot going forward.
If we get through to the HT again, Detective Patterson,
you'll be taking over commanded, you do. You can't really
expect that, my decision is final. I mean, I was stunned,
but why didn't you and Hobbes pitch him on doing
(24:32):
just that we did? But the Commander didn't show his
cards at all. And I'm trained the spot when somebody's
hiding with their thinking. He tipped nothing. And you have
to understand, Halmer and the Commander are boys. They go
fishing trips together with their families, they coach a basketball
team together. They're tight. So, Commander, I have to ask,
(24:54):
when you tap Detective Patterson to replace Homer as lead negotiator,
why didn't you have someone take over it for Captain
Flores as well? What do you mean? Well, from what
I hear, he was pretty disrespectful towards you after Gerald
announced his trial, and ironically, it was Homer who had
your back the most. Okay, okay, Stan is a good
(25:17):
friend and a great cop. But after giving him a
couple of runs and negotiating with Gerald, I just didn't
feel like he was the right man for this particular scenario.
And as far as Captain Flores was concerned, there was
just no way that I was going to relieve someone
with that much experience from his post in the middle
of a standoff. Sure we had words, but given the circumstances,
I felt that was just one of those blows I
(25:38):
needed to absorb and then quickly get him back in line,
which he did, and I'm glad he did too, because
he wasn't just responsible for tactical as it related to
the standoff. He was also overseeing crowd control. Okay, the
professional protesters were showing up in droves, and there's just
nobody in the department that has as much knowledge and
experience as Flora's when it comes to x acuting on
(26:00):
both of those disciplines. I have to tell you, given
all that was going on at this point in the evening,
a tactical assault was an option that was becoming increasingly
more attractive than bottom line. I needed Flora's for that.
I can't point that you can say here the taser
(26:57):
adventurablele art of every when I we elevated, did Ryan
here have had this flash protectors? Have? Colleen Sanders looks
back on her reporting. This wasn't just local news anymore.
The story was picked up nationally, so our feed was
(27:18):
being broadcast directly to Ryan Smith's nightly show. I don't
know what his numbers are today, but at the time
he had the best ratings on cable in the country.
So when I say this was everywhere, it was everywhere, which,
to be honest, Kate, this was a big deal for
me professionally speaking. So basically, I'm literally doing the biggest
(27:44):
report of my career. When over the chanting crowds, I
hear one of the protesters screaming, this is the this
is the mother, this is n I'm reporting live when
I hear that man yell out, this is Niles's mother,
and I look over my shoulder and I see this
(28:06):
woman standing there on the opposite side of this somewhat
porous row of riot police, and she's just kind of
getting bumped around by this flood of people marching through.
And to this day, I don't know what came over me,
but I just marched through the police line, grabbed her
(28:31):
and started pulling her back onto our side of the perimeter. Hey,
why are you doing. Don't do that the side. Okay,
she's with that, she's with that, And somehow I got
her through. So now we're back inside that outer ring
that I talked about before. And to be honest, I
(28:54):
wasn't even sure if this was really Niles's mother. But
if it was, I just I just knew I had
to grab her. Mind you, this is all happening on
national television live. The camera is still on me and
it's on her too, So I just asked her, are
(29:14):
you notice Haye's mother? Yeah? Yeah, Then she leans close
into my ear and says something. I look at the
camera without a doubt, the biggest moment of my career.
Then I looked back at her. Then I called out,
cut it. Call you were, I don't care. We're not
(29:38):
going to use her like that. Cut it now, right,
She's not ready, right, she got to be ready. In
the footage, we can't hear what Michelle said to you.
I know, do you mind sharing that with us? I
have thought about this a lot, for both professional and
(30:01):
personal reasons, and I'm not certain if it's so much
what she said as how she did it. What do
you mean She sort of leaned away from the microphone
and spoke in my ear, and it disarmed me. It
(30:22):
got intimate. Yeah, I mean you know how it is, Kate.
When you're in the field, a microphone can almost act
like an emotional shield between you and your subject, and
anyway she she asked, is what they're saying true? Did
they kill my baby? Yeah? So her question did three things. One,
(30:51):
I felt completely confident that this was in fact Nel's mother. Two,
it made me realize that she knew less than I did.
And Third, I went from seeing her as a great
exclusive interview to someone who needed help. So I had
to make a split second decision. Do I do this
(31:14):
to her, do what you know, open her up, raw
wounded and feed her to the audience, or do I
give her a minute as a human being, as a
mother to catch up to what everyone else had already learned?
(31:36):
The Niles was gone exactly Okay, So that was my
big moment. I don't know, Maybe I just don't have
that killer instinct, you know. I always thought I did,
But m hm, when it counted, I didn't pull the trigger. Hello,
(32:01):
there's a Detective Patterson Los Angeles. I am your negotiator.
Next time. Hashtag Matter, starring Amen Joseph as Gerald Hayes,
(32:28):
Jennifer Christopher as Kate Bell, Steve Harris as Jason shaw Hayley,
Joel Osmond as Sergeant Place, Pooch Hall as Martin Simms,
and Snoop Dogg as Big h additional performances by Nile
Bullock as Nile's Hayes, Serena Pouncey as Michelle Hayes, Monte
(32:50):
Russell as Detective Patterson, and Alex Vaughan as Darrell Hanover.
Hashtag Matter was written and directed by Dylan C. Brown.
Our executive producers are Sandy Bailey, Lauren Holman, Dylan Brown,
Winnie Kemp, and Aimon Joseph. Audio designed by Wolf at
(33:10):
the Door, Sound design and mix by Josh Falcon, music
by Jonathan Sandford, edited by Darren Bowland, and our sound
director is Alexander Kemp. Produced by Toby Lawless and Lucy Jones.
Casting by Lawless Casting. Hashtag Matter is a production of
(33:32):
Shonda land Audio in partnership with I Heart Radio and
an association with Wolf at the Door. For more podcasts
from shot Land Audio, visit the I Heart Radio app,
Apple podcast, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.
Popular Podcasts
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations.
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
The Nikki Glaser Podcast
Every week comedian and infamous roaster Nikki Glaser provides a fun, fast-paced, and brutally honest look into current pop-culture and her own personal life.