March 16, 2022 • 29 mins
Martin Simms, who recorded the attack on Niles, gives Kate a firsthand overview of the events that transpired outside and inside of Jayce’s bar. Intriguing details are revealed surrounding Sergeant Place’s shooting and the hostage situation that follows.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:02):
This podcast is a dramatization of fictionalized events that contains
culturally insensitive language and violence. Something that I think that
most people don't take into account is that, yes, I
recorded the incident on my cell phone, but I also
(00:22):
actually witnessed those cops and what they did to Niles
with my own two eyes. And how would you describe
what you saw? It was traumatizing. Yeah, it was traumatizing.
And let's just say those cops acted like savages. Niles Hayes,
(00:56):
who you remember from the first episode, was running an
errand to pick up tickets to a basketball game when
he gets pulled over by the police. The car he
was driving, a seven Series BMW, belonged to a family friend,
Jay Shaw. The following footage is from the policeman's body cam.
Roll your window down all the way and I'm gonna
(01:17):
need you to get off your cell phone. That's the
voice of thirteen year police that are in Sergeant Place,
license registration insurance. I was just trying to fix my
dad and let him know that I got pulled over
his license insurance. Please as Nile's hands as I d
card over, Sergeant Places partner Officer Webb approaches the BMW's trunk.
(01:40):
Can I ask you something? Why is your partner putting
gloves on like he's about to get in a fight.
Do you have registration and insurance? That's what I was
trying to tell you. I'm not sure where the owner
keeps it? You okay with me? Looking in the glove compartment, sir?
Is this vehicle stolen? What's known? This is my dad's friend,
his car, My father and the owner of the car.
(02:02):
That Are you buying or selling drugs? Come on, man,
answer the question. No, are you buying a something? Drugs?
Are there any narcotics of any kind in the vehicle? Cocaine? Pills? No?
Do you mind if reserves the vehicle? I do mind?
Are you in possession of a firearm or any other weapon? Really?
(02:25):
That's where you're going with this? Man? This is some bullshit.
I'm gonna need you to step outside the vehicle right now.
I'm trying to tell you the owner of the car
is right there in that restaurant across the street. Hey,
hands up on the dash. I have to put my
hands up on the dash now, all right? All right,
all right there there, keep him there. Why are you
(02:46):
putting your hand on your car. Shut up so ridiculously
outside the vehicle, slowly listen to me for a second.
Stop jumping and conclusive. Hi, get out of the car now,
screaming voice, you just heard that Sergeant places partner Officer
web So here I am outside of Jason's forty two
take in video of the building on my phone. That's
Martin Sims, who you also remember from the previous episode
(03:08):
is Jay Shaw's former sports agent. Now, this again is
part of my attempt to make Jas think that I'm
actually considering partnering up with him on the bar. But
like I said, everything about this was a non starter.
I mean from the gun vault to Jason's drinking and
kit Let's be honest here, the restaurant business is a
(03:28):
tough one as it is, and then you add in
a middle aged former athlete with questionable executive decision making skills.
Oh no, thank you, you were over it. I was,
and Kate, I swear to you. I was literally thinking
to myself, you know, Martin, you can just leave, you
can just leave and just give Jason excuse later. Why
didn't you? Because that's when I heard the commotion across
(03:51):
the street the police. Yeah, and Basically, all I did
was turn a hundred and eighty degrees and keep filming.
Am I to arrest? Do you want to be No?
I want you to stop assuming that I'm doing something wrong.
Is that I'm a criminal? Mann? Stop acting like a
criminal and comply? But how am I acting like a criminal?
This is your final warning step outside of the vehicle.
(04:13):
Don't sit man, this is why they need to defund y'all. Well,
let's go. And then all of a sudden, I hear
so offers a web bangs his baton into the window
and at the same time starts and play starts punching
the crap out of the mouse's face through the driver's side.
And then that's when you just hear like web just
(04:36):
destroyed the star window, a huge mouth out of the
car like using bag rounds stands warning to the people.
I didn't do anything. Start out, start out, and these
these two cops are just taking terms like tea off
on this poor kid just got him. So while all
(05:01):
this is happening, right, I saw to reach back from
one hand to open the rest of my door, and
I called inside. I'm like you gotta see that. Wait,
is that Marchael behind him. Joel comes out and immediately
teas in on his son. Then Jay's yells out too,
(05:24):
prompted by the hollering, you can see Officer Webb look
across the street. He quickly reaches for the radio on
his lapel progress respective of a five three copy that
norm sending back up path. Attention l units you're intersections
with Lass obviously the assistance and responding units, please identifying
(05:46):
four five three frame responding coming there four five three freak.
Then I remember feeling something like sort of whisp past me.
In the next thing I know, I say, General running
towards you know, his son and the police. Okay, but
but as he's trying to get to his son, and
he's trying to dodge from the crossing traffic by taking
(06:09):
my phone and I zoom in just as Officer Webb
slams his knee onto me, his face whetting all of
these wings, falls home hard on the kid's jar that
moler's not in his kid's mouth, and bounces onto the curb.
And then after that, Sergeant Place just started crawling out
back up back up bag. As both policemen clear away
(06:32):
from Niles, Sergeant Place pulls his taser out and fires
it like. I don't know if it's because they were
focused on making sure they were keeping a safe distance
from Niles as they taste them or what, But neither
one of them saw Jerald coming Like a projectile. Gerald
(07:00):
is his body with all the speed he can muster
and to both police officers, which sends them all crashing
to the ground. Then Gerald quickly rolls on top of
Sergeant Place and began striking down on him with a
flurry of rabid blows. Simultaneously, Officer Webbry groups from the
fall and draws his gun. Then when that first shot
(07:23):
rung out, j Sha recalls his reaction. My heart sunk
because I thought, damn, they just shot g You thought
Officer Web shot Gerald. Yeah, yeah I did. But it
was weird because I hear the gun go off, and
it's like everything froze for us Place second, that's when
I realized that Sergeant Place at his gun out too.
(07:46):
Why did everyone freeze because no one could believe what
they were seeing, which was what Sergeant Plays just shot
his own partner. And then you just see Officer Web
drop straight down and it's like as soon as Officer
Wells body hit the ground. Boom, freeze, frame was over.
(08:06):
Everything started moving again, but like real fast in the video,
Gerald immediately tries to wrestle Sergeant Places, gonna away from him.
As the two continue their struggle for the firearm, another
shot rings out, this one hitting Sergeant Placed in his
right leg. Seizing the moment, Gerald rips the gun away
from the now wounded Sergeant Place and he proceeds to
(08:27):
whale on him with his sists and the policeman's own.
So I just take off running towards now. Jason, in
his infinite wisdom, dashes across the street as well to
where all this madness is happening. Now. Now Gerald is
beating the crap out of Sergeant Place and the other
cop officers Web is all on the side, grabbing at
a bloody wound on his neck. What about Niles? From
(08:50):
what I could see, Niles was out the oils was
still conscious. Martin was just too far away to hear
what we heard. As I'm running up, she's just beating
the ship out of sawd your place. And then I
see him sort of rocked back, take a like keep
about to shoot this dude, And that's when we both
hear there right there. Did you did you here? Now?
(09:13):
Says Damn To this day, I believe Gerald was gonna
shoot that cop on the spot had he not heard
his son call out. That split second gave Gerald palms
and that's when I put my hands on him, and
I say. In Martin's cell phone footage and in the
surveillance video from outside the restaurant, we see Gerald peel
(09:36):
his battered son off the sidewalk and carry him across
the street over the door. You're in, Nora. We have
a night night night chewing him over, down over, dick
(09:58):
down cop in that fire tenor is on the way
stand line intentional units. We have a nine ventura ball
of art and Lazarus and let's requested as well respond well,
hanging there so now here, surrounded by straight up Corntie. Obviously,
(10:23):
Webb don't look like he's gonna make it. Sergeant Places
shot up to at the end, I see Place crawling
towards Webb's gun, which is lying right there on the
sidewalk right. So now I'm thinking, if I let him
get to that gun, who knows what my jumple. In
Martin's video, we see Sergeant Place get within inches of
his partner's straight firearm. When Jay's kicks the weapon out
(10:45):
of reach, The former football player then hoist Sergeant Place
over his shoulder and carries the wounded policeman towards the restaurant.
As Jason runs through traffic towards this building, we can
see in the restaurant surveillance camera that Jays also grabs
Martin by the caller and pulls him along as well.
Come what are you doing? Let my circle that. I
(11:11):
asked Martin what he felt like. As the large ornately
crafted doors at Jason's body, two sports bar and girl
close behind them, I was disbelief, but at the same
time it was all start to get the feeling that
I was trapped. Now now'll come on, boy, who come
(11:36):
at John that I'm carrying it? Sergeant place right, Gerald
announce they already in the kitchen. Immediately I hear Gerald
telling me to get some help. So I said, Sergeant
place down and kind of you know, problem up against
the wall. While I'm doing that, Martin starts free out,
thinking of my face, James, what are you thinking? Answering
(11:59):
Gerald's call, Jase leaves Martin Sergeant Place in the main
bar area and crosses into the kitchen. Are you leaking
you go to heavy lance? Yeah. When I walked into
the kitchen, I've seen Niles laid up like that on
the table. I just went't prepared for. I mean, I
saw how it was constans beating on him, but I
(12:19):
just didn't expect it to be as bad as it was.
You know, can you tell us what you saw? One
of his arms dislocated hanging towards the ground, but like
wrong way and was not room chest at all. These
(12:40):
belts bruises on it his face. Yeah, it's so spoiler. Yeah, yes,
the address? Do you know the street number? Side? Oh yeah,
it's sixty two six to thank you, thank you. Sorry,
(13:06):
we already responding to that location and responsible shooting. Is
that law he may have may not be okay, sorry,
well we have that on the way. Are you inside
the building? After calling, Jays goes back into the main area,
where we see Martin pacing nervously back and forth. Sergeant
(13:29):
Place is still propped against the wall and you can
tell that he's in a lot of discomfort as he
squirms uncomfortably from the bullet wound in his thigh. No,
no more. In the video, we see Gerald dragged Sergeant
Place towards the kitchen, where Niles convlesses, you cannot do that, Okay,
(13:52):
this man is she stopped Martin in the face and
it's not his hands down, And then he goes back
to drag the policeman towards the kitchen. Right mine hops
up and makes a bee line for the front door
and opens it, and all of a sudden, all you
go here was Kate and ship was so loud Eat
(14:13):
literally sounded like the squad cars were driving into the
bar over the door. Lucky you and him? What are
you free to believe? Hill Martin? I did that? So, Martin,
were you grateful that James told Gerald he was the
one who brought Sergeant Place into the bar with you.
(14:38):
As far as I was concerned, it was Jason's fault
that I was in this messing the first place, So no,
I was definitely not grateful. If anything, I was pissed.
And then I look over and Gerald is waving a
gun in my direction, like, oh, hell no, if anyone
goes for that door again without my permission, I'm gonna
shoot you. First, did you believe him that he would
(15:00):
shoot me without a question? But he wasn't the only
one I was worried about taking a bullet from what
he's on him. All this is charge of place. Take
a building, now take a building, now back back back.
(15:42):
So James walked me through this. Who shot first? I
ain't sa do with Gerald little police. Jason is lying
if he says he doesn't remember who five first was?
Gerald Martin recounts. Okay, let let me just tell exactly
how it went down. Okay, First, the police announced themselves,
then try to bust out the door and successfully. Generald shoots,
(16:03):
and then the police they returned fire. Now this goes
on for a been until Gerald runs out of AMMO.
Sergeant Place notices. He calls onto the other cops. He's like,
he's out, He's out, He's out. But remember Jason's gun
vote that I was worried about. Well, guess who else
remembered it? Gerald Bingo or like donkey going after that?
(16:24):
So after trading a few shots, she goes into my
office and come back out with the big boy. And
when you said the boy, you mean my a off fifteen?
What's the cops turn that day? He won't none, And
luckily for them, he just fired one and shots it
to the sea. So Martin, what were you thinking as
(16:45):
bullets were flying back and forth? Did you did you
think that you were going to die? Kate? You know, um,
I felt like this is something I don't want to
talk about. Ipposed to say question to Jace, But I'm
like Martin, Jason was more cavalier about it. Well, you know,
(17:07):
it's not the first time I've been shot at, been
shot a bunch of times, but from the hood Cake.
So if you had to rate this being shot at
experience on a scale of this ship was a twenty.
Because I take being shot at by some stick up
kids and some jealous dude up in the club every
day of the week, and twice on Sunday over a
cop getting one shot off in my direction? What's up? What?
(17:30):
One cops shoot to kill? Two they're really good at
hitting the targets they aimed at. And three have you
ever seen a practice target? It's black and it doesn't
have anything for you to aim at except vitals. Now,
we were just lucky that they were shooting blindly into
walls and that the windows was covered. Otherwise I don't
(17:53):
think i'd be here talking to you right now. I
don't know what about Gerald. Do you think he was
scared at all? You're so certain, let me explain something
to you about Gerald Hayes. He's one of those dudes
that has that switch, you know what I'm saying, And
by the time there was gunfire, that switch was turned
all the way up. Martin echoed Jason's assessment of Gerald.
(18:18):
The best way I can describe Gerald in that moment
is there was a look in his eyes that I
simply have not seen on another human being in my life,
and then scared the ship out of me. Look. I
ain't trying to glamorize it or him, but jeez, a soldier,
(18:39):
I mean, you know, obviously not you know, Yanni States
military or whatever. But there's a lot of dudes who
come from the areas like where we come from, who
just built different and they battle tested. And I just
think that from the second that he saw now it's
getting beat down by the MC cops, you know that
the mode he went into, she she it in the
(19:00):
battle war. Immediately after the exchange of gunfire with the
police subsides, we see Gerald fished out some duct tape
from a creative supplies and he tosses it to Martin
and issues a staunch warning that cops scream the other
cops again, I'm gonna who you responsible. In the surveillance cam,
we see Martin hastily peel a length of tape and stretched.
The sergeant places Joe then gives Martin it's O Kate.
(19:27):
Here's what really bothers me. But also what I find ridiculous,
you know, because people know me as the guy who
recorded what the police did to Niles, and no I
was involved in the standoff. And to this day, when
I get approached on the street, it's usually either people
thinking to me as one of the guys that kidnapped
the police officer and they love me for it, or
(19:48):
people see me and they want to spit my face
or fight me like that sort of thing. So on
of all of this, this interview, this project, I just
want to finally set the record straight because as much
as I hate to say this because I don't know,
I just think it makes me sound weak or like
(20:08):
a coward or something. I was scared shitless in that bar,
But you tell me anyone in that situation, it wouldn't
be I had no power. I was being held against
my will, and I was being ordered to do things
that I did not want to do. Gerald, he was
in complete control and knew exactly what he was doing
(20:30):
that day. Let me back this up a little bit
more fun. You. Jason and I are reviewing security camera
footage on my laptop. So this is what I wanted
you to see. First, Gerald grabs more ammunition for the
assault right for. Then he stops another handgun in his
waist band. Right there, he just pocketed another two clips.
(20:52):
Now he closes a vault and there is You see
that what he read programmed the combination. He wasn't just
fiddling with the keypad for ships and giggles. He was
changing the combination so that only he could get access
to the guards. So Gerald was in control. I mean,
and how did that make you feel? I mean, it's
(21:13):
your bar. Yeah I did feel a way. But on
the flip side, I also felt like what could I
say to him? Like that was his boy lying on
the table in the next room. It was his shot
outside Jason's forty two sports bar and grill. Enough police
have mobilized him mount a major military offensive. As we
(21:40):
waited for the police to make the next move, we
get all heard a share amount of activity happening outside,
but none of us knew exactly what they were doing.
Then yeah, we news from us. And I don't know
if it was the fact that an animals had showed
up yet or if Gerald was just tied up hearing
them say the same thing over and over on the morning.
(22:02):
But finally he just had enough and he goes to
the middle of the bar facing the street, and he
takes this this very wide stance, and his postures just
I don't know. I mean, I guess the best way
to describe is primal. And at the top of his lungs,
he just starts screaming fuck. And I'm just thinking to myself,
(22:32):
this guy has lost it. I asked Chase if he
thought Gerald was coming undone look. Yeah, at that time,
I was more concerned with what was going on on
the other side of that front doat and I was
about g So finally I just walked over to the window,
peeled back some of that construction paper and took a peek.
And what did you see? I saw the entire police department.
(22:54):
They had dozens of police cars, more officers than I
even knew they had, and one of those take looking vehicles.
But like the updated five version of the battle ram
they used to use in the eighties. You know, they
even brought in a mobile command unit, you know, one
of those decked out motor home look at things. So
seeing all that, I called Gerald over to take a
(23:15):
look too. Gerald joins Jays at the window and peers out.
After a few seconds of absorbing the scene taking shape outside,
Gerald slowly backs away in sort of nods like he's
revving himself up for what lies ahead. It's as if
you can see something get activated in his head that
pulls him out of this raw emotional place where he
was screaming his lungs out to a totally different state
(23:37):
of mind where the analytical gear start turning again. He
can't help but think back to something that correctional officer
Pali said about Gerald, how he could imagine Gerald being
a grand chess master. Maybe when Gerald looked out that window,
he saw his opponents setting the board, lining up the
rows of ponds, rooks, nights, and so on, And just
(23:57):
as they were prepping outside, he knew that the initial rooms,
or what they call in chest the opening was about
to be played. I asked Jason about the shift in
Gerald's demeanor as he stepped away from the window. All
I remember is he started bugging orders. JA makes you
the backdoor flock? Then pull them the loose plot from
the dinning room. Let's start boarding this up. Yeah, jeez,
(24:22):
home to it and make sure you don't bring any
more consent. And while you're at it, what you said, Man,
you heard me. I don't know why you that cop
and you're in the first place. Two shot up police
officer in fol league is on the scene. Do you
know what that equals? Do you know what he needs?
He equals niggas more bullshit about your bullshit? The cop
(24:45):
is the only reason we allied right now? That is
the old man. Gerald coolly steps up and separates Jason Martin,
in part to keep the peace, but also reminding them
both that he's the one in charge. Go hand to
that back door. So James, did Gerald ever flat out
and say that he agreed or disagreed with the fact
that you brought Sergeant Place into the bar. Gerald didn't
(25:06):
have to say he agreed with me, my wife. Look,
I get that it was probably a bit of a
shock and he would see the same guy that just
put a beato Niles right up in the spot with us.
But regardless of all of that, he knew what time
it was. If it was just us in the building
without saw your place, please forget about it. Police would
have leveled the entire block to get that up. That's
(25:29):
a load of ship. I think that's just something James
keeps telling himself so he can justify his actions that day.
Any number of outcomes could have happened if different choices
were made. I mean it's possible. I think if Gerald
doesn't attack the police, maybe his son is still alive.
(25:49):
I mean it's possible, maybe even probable. I think if
Jas doesn't take a policeman hostage, Niles is still alive today. Well,
Martin seems to think that things could have played out
differently than Martin. I guess what I am struggling with,
Jase is, how could you and from what you're telling me,
(26:10):
Gerald as well, be certain that the only outcome could
have been more cops surviving on the scene and executing it. Come, okay,
because that's what cops do. The niggas like us, Okay,
But is there a version where you and Gerald make
different choices and things turn out different and Niles lives.
You struggle with it because you live in a different
reality than we do. So let me ask you something.
(26:33):
If a man sees his child getting beat down in
the street like a doll by two grown asked me,
what is a man supposed to do? Huh? Just let
that ship happen, waiter, he let me get a tiny
walk a double knee place. You didn't mean to do? What? Look,
why don't we call your spots? Get this thing off me?
(26:55):
I ain't doing this bullshit. Never mind. You'll remember from
the previous episode I mentioned how at Wilken Sassi's post
started me on this journey, and don't get me wrong,
I don't begrudge Gerald at all for shielding his son
from harm, and if that was the end of this story,
(27:16):
I would agree that his actions were that of a hero.
But this evening was just getting started, and a lot
of what Gerald does next classifies more in a villainous
category than the heroic one. In any event, my gut
tells me that Jason wasn't just indignant with my line
of questioning. He was equally frustrated as was I with
the canyon between us. And to make matters worse, I
(27:37):
was also left wondering did I blow my chance to
get another sit down with him? With so many questions
to left unanswered, the one thing I was pretty certain of.
Judging by his reaction, Jace is definitely carrying a lot
of guilt about Nile step, which also begs the question,
at what point, if any, did Gerald start to feel
guilty too? To find out, join us for the next
(28:00):
episode of Hashtag Matter. Hashtag Matter starring Amen Joseph as
Gerald Hayes, Jennifer Christopher as Kate Bell, Steve Harris as
Jason shaw Hayley, Joel Osmond as Sergeant Place, Whoch Hall
(28:23):
as Martin Sims, and Snoop Dogg as Big H. Additional
performances by Nile Bullock as Niles Hayes, Serena Pouncey as
Michelle Hayes, Monte Russell as Detective Patterson, and Alex Vaughan
as Darrell Hanover. Hashtag Matter was written and directed by
Dylan C. Brown. Our executive producers are Sandy Bailey, Lauren Holman,
(28:49):
Dylan Brown, Winnie Kemp, and Amon Joseph. Audio designed by
Wolf at the Door, Sound design and mix by Josh Falcon,
Music by Jonathan Sandford, edited by Darren Boland and our
sound director is Alexander Kemp. Produced by Toby Lawless and
(29:11):
Lucy Jones, Casting by Lawless Casting. Hashtag Matter is a
production of Shonda land Audio in partnership with I Heart
Radio and an association with Wolf at the Door. For
more podcasts from shot Land Audio, visit the I Heart
Radio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you listen to your
(29:32):
favorite shows.
This podcast is a dramatization of fictionalized events that contains
culturally insensitive language and violence. Something that I think that
most people don't take into account is that, yes, I
recorded the incident on my cell phone, but I also
(00:22):
actually witnessed those cops and what they did to Niles
with my own two eyes. And how would you describe
what you saw? It was traumatizing. Yeah, it was traumatizing.
And let's just say those cops acted like savages. Niles Hayes,
(00:56):
who you remember from the first episode, was running an
errand to pick up tickets to a basketball game when
he gets pulled over by the police. The car he
was driving, a seven Series BMW, belonged to a family friend,
Jay Shaw. The following footage is from the policeman's body cam.
Roll your window down all the way and I'm gonna
(01:17):
need you to get off your cell phone. That's the
voice of thirteen year police that are in Sergeant Place,
license registration insurance. I was just trying to fix my
dad and let him know that I got pulled over
his license insurance. Please as Nile's hands as I d
card over, Sergeant Places partner Officer Webb approaches the BMW's trunk.
(01:40):
Can I ask you something? Why is your partner putting
gloves on like he's about to get in a fight.
Do you have registration and insurance? That's what I was
trying to tell you. I'm not sure where the owner
keeps it? You okay with me? Looking in the glove compartment, sir?
Is this vehicle stolen? What's known? This is my dad's friend,
his car, My father and the owner of the car.
(02:02):
That Are you buying or selling drugs? Come on, man,
answer the question. No, are you buying a something? Drugs?
Are there any narcotics of any kind in the vehicle? Cocaine? Pills? No?
Do you mind if reserves the vehicle? I do mind?
Are you in possession of a firearm or any other weapon? Really?
(02:25):
That's where you're going with this? Man? This is some bullshit.
I'm gonna need you to step outside the vehicle right now.
I'm trying to tell you the owner of the car
is right there in that restaurant across the street. Hey,
hands up on the dash. I have to put my
hands up on the dash now, all right? All right,
all right there there, keep him there. Why are you
(02:46):
putting your hand on your car. Shut up so ridiculously
outside the vehicle, slowly listen to me for a second.
Stop jumping and conclusive. Hi, get out of the car now,
screaming voice, you just heard that Sergeant places partner Officer
web So here I am outside of Jason's forty two
take in video of the building on my phone. That's
Martin Sims, who you also remember from the previous episode
(03:08):
is Jay Shaw's former sports agent. Now, this again is
part of my attempt to make Jas think that I'm
actually considering partnering up with him on the bar. But
like I said, everything about this was a non starter.
I mean from the gun vault to Jason's drinking and
kit Let's be honest here, the restaurant business is a
(03:28):
tough one as it is, and then you add in
a middle aged former athlete with questionable executive decision making skills.
Oh no, thank you, you were over it. I was,
and Kate, I swear to you. I was literally thinking
to myself, you know, Martin, you can just leave, you
can just leave and just give Jason excuse later. Why
didn't you? Because that's when I heard the commotion across
(03:51):
the street the police. Yeah, and Basically, all I did
was turn a hundred and eighty degrees and keep filming.
Am I to arrest? Do you want to be No?
I want you to stop assuming that I'm doing something wrong.
Is that I'm a criminal? Mann? Stop acting like a
criminal and comply? But how am I acting like a criminal?
This is your final warning step outside of the vehicle.
(04:13):
Don't sit man, this is why they need to defund y'all. Well,
let's go. And then all of a sudden, I hear
so offers a web bangs his baton into the window
and at the same time starts and play starts punching
the crap out of the mouse's face through the driver's side.
And then that's when you just hear like web just
(04:36):
destroyed the star window, a huge mouth out of the
car like using bag rounds stands warning to the people.
I didn't do anything. Start out, start out, and these
these two cops are just taking terms like tea off
on this poor kid just got him. So while all
(05:01):
this is happening, right, I saw to reach back from
one hand to open the rest of my door, and
I called inside. I'm like you gotta see that. Wait,
is that Marchael behind him. Joel comes out and immediately
teas in on his son. Then Jay's yells out too,
(05:24):
prompted by the hollering, you can see Officer Webb look
across the street. He quickly reaches for the radio on
his lapel progress respective of a five three copy that
norm sending back up path. Attention l units you're intersections
with Lass obviously the assistance and responding units, please identifying
(05:46):
four five three frame responding coming there four five three freak.
Then I remember feeling something like sort of whisp past me.
In the next thing I know, I say, General running
towards you know, his son and the police. Okay, but
but as he's trying to get to his son, and
he's trying to dodge from the crossing traffic by taking
(06:09):
my phone and I zoom in just as Officer Webb
slams his knee onto me, his face whetting all of
these wings, falls home hard on the kid's jar that
moler's not in his kid's mouth, and bounces onto the curb.
And then after that, Sergeant Place just started crawling out
back up back up bag. As both policemen clear away
(06:32):
from Niles, Sergeant Place pulls his taser out and fires
it like. I don't know if it's because they were
focused on making sure they were keeping a safe distance
from Niles as they taste them or what, But neither
one of them saw Jerald coming Like a projectile. Gerald
(07:00):
is his body with all the speed he can muster
and to both police officers, which sends them all crashing
to the ground. Then Gerald quickly rolls on top of
Sergeant Place and began striking down on him with a
flurry of rabid blows. Simultaneously, Officer Webbry groups from the
fall and draws his gun. Then when that first shot
(07:23):
rung out, j Sha recalls his reaction. My heart sunk
because I thought, damn, they just shot g You thought
Officer Web shot Gerald. Yeah, yeah I did. But it
was weird because I hear the gun go off, and
it's like everything froze for us Place second, that's when
I realized that Sergeant Place at his gun out too.
(07:46):
Why did everyone freeze because no one could believe what
they were seeing, which was what Sergeant Plays just shot
his own partner. And then you just see Officer Web
drop straight down and it's like as soon as Officer
Wells body hit the ground. Boom, freeze, frame was over.
(08:06):
Everything started moving again, but like real fast in the video,
Gerald immediately tries to wrestle Sergeant Places, gonna away from him.
As the two continue their struggle for the firearm, another
shot rings out, this one hitting Sergeant Placed in his
right leg. Seizing the moment, Gerald rips the gun away
from the now wounded Sergeant Place and he proceeds to
(08:27):
whale on him with his sists and the policeman's own.
So I just take off running towards now. Jason, in
his infinite wisdom, dashes across the street as well to
where all this madness is happening. Now. Now Gerald is
beating the crap out of Sergeant Place and the other
cop officers Web is all on the side, grabbing at
a bloody wound on his neck. What about Niles? From
(08:50):
what I could see, Niles was out the oils was
still conscious. Martin was just too far away to hear
what we heard. As I'm running up, she's just beating
the ship out of sawd your place. And then I
see him sort of rocked back, take a like keep
about to shoot this dude, And that's when we both
hear there right there. Did you did you here? Now?
(09:13):
Says Damn To this day, I believe Gerald was gonna
shoot that cop on the spot had he not heard
his son call out. That split second gave Gerald palms
and that's when I put my hands on him, and
I say. In Martin's cell phone footage and in the
surveillance video from outside the restaurant, we see Gerald peel
(09:36):
his battered son off the sidewalk and carry him across
the street over the door. You're in, Nora. We have
a night night night chewing him over, down over, dick
(09:58):
down cop in that fire tenor is on the way
stand line intentional units. We have a nine ventura ball
of art and Lazarus and let's requested as well respond well,
hanging there so now here, surrounded by straight up Corntie. Obviously,
(10:23):
Webb don't look like he's gonna make it. Sergeant Places
shot up to at the end, I see Place crawling
towards Webb's gun, which is lying right there on the
sidewalk right. So now I'm thinking, if I let him
get to that gun, who knows what my jumple. In
Martin's video, we see Sergeant Place get within inches of
his partner's straight firearm. When Jay's kicks the weapon out
(10:45):
of reach, The former football player then hoist Sergeant Place
over his shoulder and carries the wounded policeman towards the restaurant.
As Jason runs through traffic towards this building, we can
see in the restaurant surveillance camera that Jays also grabs
Martin by the caller and pulls him along as well.
Come what are you doing? Let my circle that. I
(11:11):
asked Martin what he felt like. As the large ornately
crafted doors at Jason's body, two sports bar and girl
close behind them, I was disbelief, but at the same
time it was all start to get the feeling that
I was trapped. Now now'll come on, boy, who come
(11:36):
at John that I'm carrying it? Sergeant place right, Gerald
announce they already in the kitchen. Immediately I hear Gerald
telling me to get some help. So I said, Sergeant
place down and kind of you know, problem up against
the wall. While I'm doing that, Martin starts free out,
thinking of my face, James, what are you thinking? Answering
(11:59):
Gerald's call, Jase leaves Martin Sergeant Place in the main
bar area and crosses into the kitchen. Are you leaking
you go to heavy lance? Yeah. When I walked into
the kitchen, I've seen Niles laid up like that on
the table. I just went't prepared for. I mean, I
saw how it was constans beating on him, but I
(12:19):
just didn't expect it to be as bad as it was.
You know, can you tell us what you saw? One
of his arms dislocated hanging towards the ground, but like
wrong way and was not room chest at all. These
(12:40):
belts bruises on it his face. Yeah, it's so spoiler. Yeah, yes,
the address? Do you know the street number? Side? Oh yeah,
it's sixty two six to thank you, thank you. Sorry,
(13:06):
we already responding to that location and responsible shooting. Is
that law he may have may not be okay, sorry,
well we have that on the way. Are you inside
the building? After calling, Jays goes back into the main area,
where we see Martin pacing nervously back and forth. Sergeant
(13:29):
Place is still propped against the wall and you can
tell that he's in a lot of discomfort as he
squirms uncomfortably from the bullet wound in his thigh. No,
no more. In the video, we see Gerald dragged Sergeant
Place towards the kitchen, where Niles convlesses, you cannot do that, Okay,
(13:52):
this man is she stopped Martin in the face and
it's not his hands down, And then he goes back
to drag the policeman towards the kitchen. Right mine hops
up and makes a bee line for the front door
and opens it, and all of a sudden, all you
go here was Kate and ship was so loud Eat
(14:13):
literally sounded like the squad cars were driving into the
bar over the door. Lucky you and him? What are
you free to believe? Hill Martin? I did that? So, Martin,
were you grateful that James told Gerald he was the
one who brought Sergeant Place into the bar with you.
(14:38):
As far as I was concerned, it was Jason's fault
that I was in this messing the first place, So no,
I was definitely not grateful. If anything, I was pissed.
And then I look over and Gerald is waving a
gun in my direction, like, oh, hell no, if anyone
goes for that door again without my permission, I'm gonna
shoot you. First, did you believe him that he would
(15:00):
shoot me without a question? But he wasn't the only
one I was worried about taking a bullet from what
he's on him. All this is charge of place. Take
a building, now take a building, now back back back.
(15:42):
So James walked me through this. Who shot first? I
ain't sa do with Gerald little police. Jason is lying
if he says he doesn't remember who five first was?
Gerald Martin recounts. Okay, let let me just tell exactly
how it went down. Okay, First, the police announced themselves,
then try to bust out the door and successfully. Generald shoots,
(16:03):
and then the police they returned fire. Now this goes
on for a been until Gerald runs out of AMMO.
Sergeant Place notices. He calls onto the other cops. He's like,
he's out, He's out, He's out. But remember Jason's gun
vote that I was worried about. Well, guess who else
remembered it? Gerald Bingo or like donkey going after that?
(16:24):
So after trading a few shots, she goes into my
office and come back out with the big boy. And
when you said the boy, you mean my a off fifteen?
What's the cops turn that day? He won't none, And
luckily for them, he just fired one and shots it
to the sea. So Martin, what were you thinking as
(16:45):
bullets were flying back and forth? Did you did you
think that you were going to die? Kate? You know, um,
I felt like this is something I don't want to
talk about. Ipposed to say question to Jace, But I'm
like Martin, Jason was more cavalier about it. Well, you know,
(17:07):
it's not the first time I've been shot at, been
shot a bunch of times, but from the hood Cake.
So if you had to rate this being shot at
experience on a scale of this ship was a twenty.
Because I take being shot at by some stick up
kids and some jealous dude up in the club every
day of the week, and twice on Sunday over a
cop getting one shot off in my direction? What's up? What?
(17:30):
One cops shoot to kill? Two they're really good at
hitting the targets they aimed at. And three have you
ever seen a practice target? It's black and it doesn't
have anything for you to aim at except vitals. Now,
we were just lucky that they were shooting blindly into
walls and that the windows was covered. Otherwise I don't
(17:53):
think i'd be here talking to you right now. I
don't know what about Gerald. Do you think he was
scared at all? You're so certain, let me explain something
to you about Gerald Hayes. He's one of those dudes
that has that switch, you know what I'm saying, And
by the time there was gunfire, that switch was turned
all the way up. Martin echoed Jason's assessment of Gerald.
(18:18):
The best way I can describe Gerald in that moment
is there was a look in his eyes that I
simply have not seen on another human being in my life,
and then scared the ship out of me. Look. I
ain't trying to glamorize it or him, but jeez, a soldier,
(18:39):
I mean, you know, obviously not you know, Yanni States
military or whatever. But there's a lot of dudes who
come from the areas like where we come from, who
just built different and they battle tested. And I just
think that from the second that he saw now it's
getting beat down by the MC cops, you know that
the mode he went into, she she it in the
(19:00):
battle war. Immediately after the exchange of gunfire with the
police subsides, we see Gerald fished out some duct tape
from a creative supplies and he tosses it to Martin
and issues a staunch warning that cops scream the other
cops again, I'm gonna who you responsible. In the surveillance cam,
we see Martin hastily peel a length of tape and stretched.
The sergeant places Joe then gives Martin it's O Kate.
(19:27):
Here's what really bothers me. But also what I find ridiculous,
you know, because people know me as the guy who
recorded what the police did to Niles, and no I
was involved in the standoff. And to this day, when
I get approached on the street, it's usually either people
thinking to me as one of the guys that kidnapped
the police officer and they love me for it, or
(19:48):
people see me and they want to spit my face
or fight me like that sort of thing. So on
of all of this, this interview, this project, I just
want to finally set the record straight because as much
as I hate to say this because I don't know,
I just think it makes me sound weak or like
(20:08):
a coward or something. I was scared shitless in that bar,
But you tell me anyone in that situation, it wouldn't
be I had no power. I was being held against
my will, and I was being ordered to do things
that I did not want to do. Gerald, he was
in complete control and knew exactly what he was doing
(20:30):
that day. Let me back this up a little bit
more fun. You. Jason and I are reviewing security camera
footage on my laptop. So this is what I wanted
you to see. First, Gerald grabs more ammunition for the
assault right for. Then he stops another handgun in his
waist band. Right there, he just pocketed another two clips.
(20:52):
Now he closes a vault and there is You see
that what he read programmed the combination. He wasn't just
fiddling with the keypad for ships and giggles. He was
changing the combination so that only he could get access
to the guards. So Gerald was in control. I mean,
and how did that make you feel? I mean, it's
(21:13):
your bar. Yeah I did feel a way. But on
the flip side, I also felt like what could I
say to him? Like that was his boy lying on
the table in the next room. It was his shot
outside Jason's forty two sports bar and grill. Enough police
have mobilized him mount a major military offensive. As we
(21:40):
waited for the police to make the next move, we
get all heard a share amount of activity happening outside,
but none of us knew exactly what they were doing.
Then yeah, we news from us. And I don't know
if it was the fact that an animals had showed
up yet or if Gerald was just tied up hearing
them say the same thing over and over on the morning.
(22:02):
But finally he just had enough and he goes to
the middle of the bar facing the street, and he
takes this this very wide stance, and his postures just
I don't know. I mean, I guess the best way
to describe is primal. And at the top of his lungs,
he just starts screaming fuck. And I'm just thinking to myself,
(22:32):
this guy has lost it. I asked Chase if he
thought Gerald was coming undone look. Yeah, at that time,
I was more concerned with what was going on on
the other side of that front doat and I was
about g So finally I just walked over to the window,
peeled back some of that construction paper and took a peek.
And what did you see? I saw the entire police department.
(22:54):
They had dozens of police cars, more officers than I
even knew they had, and one of those take looking vehicles.
But like the updated five version of the battle ram
they used to use in the eighties. You know, they
even brought in a mobile command unit, you know, one
of those decked out motor home look at things. So
seeing all that, I called Gerald over to take a
(23:15):
look too. Gerald joins Jays at the window and peers out.
After a few seconds of absorbing the scene taking shape outside,
Gerald slowly backs away in sort of nods like he's
revving himself up for what lies ahead. It's as if
you can see something get activated in his head that
pulls him out of this raw emotional place where he
was screaming his lungs out to a totally different state
(23:37):
of mind where the analytical gear start turning again. He
can't help but think back to something that correctional officer
Pali said about Gerald, how he could imagine Gerald being
a grand chess master. Maybe when Gerald looked out that window,
he saw his opponents setting the board, lining up the
rows of ponds, rooks, nights, and so on, And just
(23:57):
as they were prepping outside, he knew that the initial rooms,
or what they call in chest the opening was about
to be played. I asked Jason about the shift in
Gerald's demeanor as he stepped away from the window. All
I remember is he started bugging orders. JA makes you
the backdoor flock? Then pull them the loose plot from
the dinning room. Let's start boarding this up. Yeah, jeez,
(24:22):
home to it and make sure you don't bring any
more consent. And while you're at it, what you said, Man,
you heard me. I don't know why you that cop
and you're in the first place. Two shot up police
officer in fol league is on the scene. Do you
know what that equals? Do you know what he needs?
He equals niggas more bullshit about your bullshit? The cop
(24:45):
is the only reason we allied right now? That is
the old man. Gerald coolly steps up and separates Jason Martin,
in part to keep the peace, but also reminding them
both that he's the one in charge. Go hand to
that back door. So James, did Gerald ever flat out
and say that he agreed or disagreed with the fact
that you brought Sergeant Place into the bar. Gerald didn't
(25:06):
have to say he agreed with me, my wife. Look,
I get that it was probably a bit of a
shock and he would see the same guy that just
put a beato Niles right up in the spot with us.
But regardless of all of that, he knew what time
it was. If it was just us in the building
without saw your place, please forget about it. Police would
have leveled the entire block to get that up. That's
(25:29):
a load of ship. I think that's just something James
keeps telling himself so he can justify his actions that day.
Any number of outcomes could have happened if different choices
were made. I mean it's possible. I think if Gerald
doesn't attack the police, maybe his son is still alive.
(25:49):
I mean it's possible, maybe even probable. I think if
Jas doesn't take a policeman hostage, Niles is still alive today. Well,
Martin seems to think that things could have played out
differently than Martin. I guess what I am struggling with,
Jase is, how could you and from what you're telling me,
(26:10):
Gerald as well, be certain that the only outcome could
have been more cops surviving on the scene and executing it. Come, okay,
because that's what cops do. The niggas like us, Okay,
But is there a version where you and Gerald make
different choices and things turn out different and Niles lives.
You struggle with it because you live in a different
reality than we do. So let me ask you something.
(26:33):
If a man sees his child getting beat down in
the street like a doll by two grown asked me,
what is a man supposed to do? Huh? Just let
that ship happen, waiter, he let me get a tiny
walk a double knee place. You didn't mean to do? What? Look,
why don't we call your spots? Get this thing off me?
(26:55):
I ain't doing this bullshit. Never mind. You'll remember from
the previous episode I mentioned how at Wilken Sassi's post
started me on this journey, and don't get me wrong,
I don't begrudge Gerald at all for shielding his son
from harm, and if that was the end of this story,
(27:16):
I would agree that his actions were that of a hero.
But this evening was just getting started, and a lot
of what Gerald does next classifies more in a villainous
category than the heroic one. In any event, my gut
tells me that Jason wasn't just indignant with my line
of questioning. He was equally frustrated as was I with
the canyon between us. And to make matters worse, I
(27:37):
was also left wondering did I blow my chance to
get another sit down with him? With so many questions
to left unanswered, the one thing I was pretty certain of.
Judging by his reaction, Jace is definitely carrying a lot
of guilt about Nile step, which also begs the question,
at what point, if any, did Gerald start to feel
guilty too? To find out, join us for the next
(28:00):
episode of Hashtag Matter. Hashtag Matter starring Amen Joseph as
Gerald Hayes, Jennifer Christopher as Kate Bell, Steve Harris as
Jason shaw Hayley, Joel Osmond as Sergeant Place, Whoch Hall
(28:23):
as Martin Sims, and Snoop Dogg as Big H. Additional
performances by Nile Bullock as Niles Hayes, Serena Pouncey as
Michelle Hayes, Monte Russell as Detective Patterson, and Alex Vaughan
as Darrell Hanover. Hashtag Matter was written and directed by
Dylan C. Brown. Our executive producers are Sandy Bailey, Lauren Holman,
(28:49):
Dylan Brown, Winnie Kemp, and Amon Joseph. Audio designed by
Wolf at the Door, Sound design and mix by Josh Falcon,
Music by Jonathan Sandford, edited by Darren Boland and our
sound director is Alexander Kemp. Produced by Toby Lawless and
(29:11):
Lucy Jones, Casting by Lawless Casting. Hashtag Matter is a
production of Shonda land Audio in partnership with I Heart
Radio and an association with Wolf at the Door. For
more podcasts from shot Land Audio, visit the I Heart
Radio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you listen to your
(29:32):
favorite shows.
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