April 20, 2022 • 39 mins
Dr.Azatti goes inside Jayce 42 to provide medical care for Sergeant Place. His POV of the standoff and of Niles' injuries makes Kate begin to wonder who's really responsible for Nile’s death. Martin loses his cool as the tensions mount and he unloads on Jayce and Gerald. Big H and the community stand up for Niles, Gerald and Jayce in an unorthodox way.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
This podcast is a dramatization of fictionalized events that contains
culturally insensitive language and violence. Bring order, creator, I've never
(00:45):
done this before. So where do you want to start? Um,
let's just start with the basics. I guess let's start
with your name, title, and why you're relevant to the story. Okay, sure.
My name is Dr Sam Azotti. I'm the head of
internal medicine at St. Joseph's Hospital. And when Gerald Hayes
was in his standoff with the l a p D.
I was called in to administer care for his hostage.
(01:07):
Sergeant Dan Police And when you got the call, did
you have any second thoughts or reservations about entering the
building that night? Sure? But did I consider not going in? No? Never.
People really don't know how much danger you were in
that night. And when comparing the time stamp on the
police department's internal comms with the bar surveillance footage, it's
(01:28):
pretty clear that you were the only person standing in
the window at that time that they were considering a
snipe attempt. I mean, it was It's pretty scary if
you stop to think about it. But I guess I
caught a break. And what about Gerald? He scare you. No,
why not? I mean to be honest, I pitied the guy,
(01:49):
and obviously I don't meet and you know, I'm not
saying what he did was right, far from it. But
I saw what they did to his son. So I
want to play back for you the conversation you were
having with Gerald after you finished stabilizing Sergeant Place and
right before you left the building, because you say something
really interesting that I want to try to understand more.
(02:13):
Mr Hayes. Sorry, I wasn't given a chance to get
in here sooner. Maybe if I had, things could have
worked out differently for your boy. I'm sorry. Yeah, I'm
sorry too cool he's coming out, coming out. I've thought
(02:39):
a lot about this. How could it have worked out
differently for Niles? Well, he needed urgent care and what
he got was the exact opposite of that. Ye. Can
you elaborate on that, sure, But I I think it's
important that I prefaced this by saying I have the
add advantage point of having read niles is autopsy report. Obviously, Okay,
(03:00):
So basically he needed a breathing tube on site, and
he should have been placed on a ventilator as quickly
as possible and my hospital was less than five minutes away.
The kid basically suffocated to death. So in your expert opinion,
let's say Gerald surrendered immediately in the medics were able
(03:21):
to get Niles to the hospital. That I'm almost certain
that Nile survives, you know, but probably paralyzed for the
rest of his life. But I'm almost certain he survived.
So by that logic, based on your medical opinion, it
seems undeniable that Gerald is at least some part responsible
for niles death, right, Yeah, I mean, well, if if
(03:43):
you look, if you're looking to assign fault, I don't
see how Gerald doesn't share a portion of the blade.
It seems like his behavior was negligent at best. But again,
that's that's just my medical opinion. It's not a legal opinion, right,
I don't know. Oh you know, I'm just a doctor, right,
I'm not a lawyer. I just have one more thing.
(04:06):
When you said that you wish things could have turned
out differently, Gerald says, I'm sorry too. Did you get
the impression that he was saying he was sorry, like
he was sorry about the whole situation, Sorry that the
police dragged their feet and getting a medic or a
doctor in there, or do you think that he was
sorry for his actions, that that he didn't actually stand down. Well, yeah,
(04:32):
I just I just took it as sorry about the
whole situation. You know, who knows what was really going
through his mind at the time, especially you know, considering
the state that he was in. You know, I mean, honestly,
your guess is as good as mine. You know this much.
I know Niles needed immediate medical attention. He didn't get it,
(04:53):
and it proved to be fatal. Doctor Zatti's po V
weighed heavily on me and heart because he's a medical professional,
but also because he's probably the most impartial person that
I've had the opportunity to interview in this process, and
it's forcing me to face something about this investigation that
I've been sort of doing this weird dance with previously.
(05:16):
You heard what happened when I pressed Jas about Gerald's
potential culpability in the way things went down that day.
Get this thing off me, I ain doing this bullshit.
I'd be lying if I said that exchange didn't affect me,
because the truth is, I know I've been pulling my
punches with Jace ever since for lots of reasons, but
if I'm being totally honest with myself, the main reason
(05:39):
is fear. Fear that I might be misconstrued as a
journalistic Karen of sorts for not being woken enough to
understand and empathize with the millions of people who voted
Sergeant Place guilty, and to an extent, I guess you
can say I feared being canceled or thought of as
someone who just doesn't get it. If you remember back
(06:00):
to episode one, I mentioned how my fixation with the
comment posted by at Wilkinsassi is what started me on
this journey in the first place, where she said at
Gerald O g is a hero for taking matters into
his own hands. But Dr Zotti's assessment not only flies
in the face of that, it basically implicates Gerald. And
(06:20):
of course I'm not saying that this in any way
absolves Sergeant Place an Officer Web of their actions, but
it does highlight for me how completely unsettled I am
with how I should view everything that Gerald did that day,
and so far, the best I can come up with
is that all of these men, Gerald, Sergeant Place, and
Officer Web are in varying degrees accomplices accomplices in the
(06:45):
death of Niles Hayes. But at the end of the day,
only one person bore the duties of a father. Only
Gerald had an obligation to Niles that transcends time and space.
And as admirable and selfless and courageous as it was
for him to dive into the fray and protect his
son when the cops were beating on him, well shouldn't
(07:07):
that same instinct have been enough to make him stand
down to save his son as well? Bottom line, after
talking to doctor Assotti, it's just hard to argue the
fact that Gerald fucked up, and it's reprehensible. So going forward,
if I'm not drilling down on this point with Jason others,
I'm just not doing my job, which means, whether I
(07:30):
like it or not, I have some difficult conversations ahead
of me. And if I get canceled in the process,
so be it. Doctor Azadi came into the budge is
as cool, calm and collected as you want to be.
So Jason, look, I just want to double back on
something that came up in my conversation with the doctor
about nats is passing, and I have to ask you
(07:52):
something point blank, who in your estimation, is responsible for
his death, Sergeant place in office as well? Who else? Yes?
But have you given any more thought to the role
Gerald might have played in this passage? The autopsy report
indicates that if Niles received timely and I don't exactly
(08:12):
call being paralyzed from the neck down. Okay, But is
there any part of you that thinks that Gerald made
a mistake in not trying to get Nile's medical attention?
What are you talking about? We did try to get help.
I was there, I made the calling out, you heard
the takes. You're right, I have. But one could argue
that if Gerald had surrendered instead of digging his heels
(08:32):
and Niles would have been taken to the hospital. One
could also argue, Kate, that if those racists as cops
didn't beat Niles to death, he would not have died.
And my argument is better. Okay, So you asked me
a question if I think Gerald fucked up? The answer
is no. Get to the next question. Okay. So Gerald
never expressed any regrets to you about the way things
(08:54):
went down? And what about you? What about me? What
regret anything? So you're blaming me? Now? No, Jase, But
it's It's only natural to replay events that don't go
the way that we want them to go and wish
for some different outcomes. So I never, I never should
(09:15):
have let now was drive my car's no no, no no,
no hold up by saying had nothing to do with
now it's getting killed, didn't it? Though? You were just
playing that should have would have could have gained with
me about Gerald surrendering earlier. Well what if now It's
took Gerald's hooped instead of my car when he went
to pick up them tickets. Now I'll never get stopped
(09:36):
by the police, he doesn't get pulled over, he don't die.
What I regret, Kate, It's the reason I had. Now
I was taking my car, which was what ego. I
didn't want him pulling up to a Beverly Hills office
(09:58):
driving Gerald's busted at as always gonna be bild because
I thought it would make me look bad. But how
could you have imagined that Niles would end up? That's
what I've been That's why I'm trying to get you
to get Every black man in America is already imagine
(10:23):
a thousand ways how this ship could go wrong. And really,
you don't even need a fucking imagination because you keep
seeing this ship over and over over. Mhm. What haunts me?
(10:45):
What haunts me to this day? It said, Look I
saw in Gerald's face when I gave his boy my cockies.
They know he knew it was a bad idea, but
he didn't stop it because he didn't want to disappoint
(11:08):
his son. For the second time, Jay stopped our interview short,
but this time he came back, all right, what else
you want to know? So, um, setting aside right and wrong,
guilt and innocence, who's to blame and not to blame?
(11:30):
I mean, is there any part of Gerald's thinking that
day that you just flat out disagreed with? And you
need to be most specific, okay, like you just didn't
understand where he was coming from. Look, okay, so I'll
say this. I think the one place well Gerald was
off base and like almost delusional, was him holding onto
(11:52):
this idea that he would be able to finish the
trial what without the police doing everything they could to
stop them, even if that meant risking Sergeant places life
in the process. Gerald had bagged them into such a
tight spot that they forced to protect something bigger than
just one cop. Just like the system, and for most
(12:15):
of the evening G just could not see that, but
the signs was everywhere. Welcome back to the show. I
want to pick up the conversation with something we were
discussing during the break, Go ahead to talk about them,
Thank you, Ryan. It occurred to me that beyond the
criminality of vigilante justice, which again I do not endorse,
I heard just pointing out that if Gerald Hayes is
(12:36):
able to carry out a trial and execute a judgment
through social media, this will be has disrupted to our
legal system as Master was to the music industry at
the turn of the Center, Abster, if I may, yes, Pa,
And to me, the most important thing is that law
enforcement do the right thing right now, and to me
that means the police force needs to take control of
the situation on and I just don't see how to
(12:58):
let them get as far as thinking that they would
be justified in executing a police officer and publishing that
live let a already praise it enough to act as
if they are as powerful as courts. That's just uncomfortable.
It's wait, wait, wait, let me, let me let me
get to the point there. So what do you say
they have to neutralize the threatened immediately. Somebody on the
ground has to be working on that. That was the
(13:19):
moment I thought it might finally set in for Gerald,
But when I looked over at him, he still had
a vibe like it didn't seem to face him. And
what exactly was it that you expected it? That we
was in deep ship and it probably would have flown
right over his head again, But Martin, Martin, of all people,
may have been the one to finally get through the
(13:40):
g Listen to this exchange from the surveillance cameras as
Martin confronts Gerald, you see what you did? Gerald, I
am fucking talking to you. Don't start with me again, Martin,
how about you fucking stop? All right? Did you have
basically signed our death? Want the funk are you talking?
(14:02):
What am I talking about? That guy just spelled it
out for you on national television, Like, like, what do
you think the police were gonna do when they found
out about your brilliant cops killer plan? Because all you've
done is giving them an excuse to come in here
and kill us all But but please don't do it
in the next couple of hours, because I'm a complete
fucking idiot watching man. No, I have been watching. I
(14:26):
have been watching everything that's happened today. The cops killed
your son, okay, and and and I saw that. But
and I truly am sorry, Gerald, I really am. But
I am not dying for that ship. Jason. No, Jays,
you chill the funk out, because I've done chilling because
this is just not my fight. It's not it's not
(14:49):
yours either, Jason, you know, okay, But let me ask you, so, Gerald,
do you really think Jason wants to ride this out
with you. I've known this fucking for of all time,
and he's just the self of society, if not more.
He's just gonna say to your face because you know,
you guys are boys, remark my words. When push comes
(15:11):
to shove, he's going to cut you loosely and go
for somefing just like he did when you guys chance,
when he rated you up. I bet you think I
knew that hum In a flash, Jason's reflexes, speed and
quickness returned to him as he charges. Martin tackles him
to the ground and then pummels him with a series
of wild punches and enraged, Jason wraps his hands around
(15:40):
Martin's neck and starts to squeeze until please, please, please, please,
please please don't let that be what I think it is.
You thought Gerald killed certain place I did. Seconds after
Gerald fires his rifle into the ceiling, the throw line
phone starts to ring. Listen to this phone call between
(16:03):
Detective Patterson and Gerald. Gee, what's going on in there?
It's under control, Detective. Everyone's fine, just needed to blow
off from steam. Well, we have a lot of cops
out here. They would love to blossom steam too. Trust me, Gee,
you don't want that, and I don't want that either. Well,
Gerald continues his call. In the surveillance video, we see
Martin collect himself off the ground and staggered towards the
(16:25):
front door when Gerald stops him. From the looks of
Martin's body language, you can see a man who's bracing
for the worst. Detective, I got two outs. That's just
coming out. We got to coming out. Don't shoot, don't shoot.
They took my feet out from money so fast, had
(16:46):
my head face down on the pavement and come white
and little eyes, my hands behind my back. But I
could not have felt more relieved, Martin recounts, and I
vividly remember thinking of myself at the time, I thank
God like over and done with, you know, but that
(17:08):
what like I had no idea that that day would
come to define me and follow me for the rest
of my life, that would be my legacy. And in
that sense, you know, what I thought was the end
was really just the beginning. You know. H I mentioned
(17:30):
before that people recognize me as the guy who recorded
what the police did to Niles, and how people see
me as either usually one of two ways. It's either, Hey,
you're one of the guys who stood up to the
police man, Good for you, man, or it's you're one
(17:52):
of those police kidnappers, aren't you. The truth is neither
one of those bothers me as much as the third
type of person. What's the third? You see, there's this
narrative out there that, uh, I'm somehow a sellout because
I didn't stay with Gerald to the end. And you
(18:13):
want to know the toughest thing about that, Hm, it's
my people who are the ones who call me a
sell out. So if you could change that narrative, what
would you want them to know about you? That I'm
the one guy who, without a doubt didn't commit any
crimes that day. I'm the one guy who video Niles
getting brutalized from start to finish, which means I documented
(18:36):
the truth I protested now is getting beat I protested
kidnapping a police officer, and I protested killing a police officer.
And I'm a sell out. I'm not a sellout. I'm
just a guy who ended up in a really bad
situation who managed to get out of it. So what
does that say about you? I'm a Savira Kate. As
(19:00):
a swat team hoisted Martin off the asphalt and marched
him away from the building. You can see him sort
of look over his shoulder to see if Jas was
behind him, but he wasn't there. Listen to this exchange
between Jason Gerald as Martin gets whisked away from the bar.
I don't go. Yeah, I'm will hold it down with you.
(19:25):
Don't worry about that other ship you think all these years.
I know it was you. He slash man, good, good
old man. Gerald tells you to leave multiple times. He
forgives you for that thing between you guys when you
were kids, and you still stayed. Why I don't know.
(19:50):
Don't get me wrong, I didn't look at it so
much as I was staying to help geraldn't standoff. I
think it was more. Uh, I think it was this
is my only real rand. He just lost his son
and I ain't going bail plus plus what I mean?
(20:10):
It was about me too, Other than sports. Whenever things
have gotten tough in my life, I've always looked for
the nearest doing marked easy way out. I ran right
through it, not this time. This is a team photo
(20:37):
from the police department in the Merroal Basketball League. I've
coaches squad with Detective Homer for twenty years now, but
this is the only time we won the championship. Palmer
looks the same. Wait, is that certain place it is?
I forgot he was on that roster. He was a
rookie on the forest that year. Here's a pentu. You're
(21:00):
me being sworn in with you can. As Commander Ammonds
offers me a virtual tour of his professional life. By
telling little anecdotes about the many photos hung on his
office wall, it becomes clearer to me how intimate the
fraternity among police officers really is. For some reason, I
always saw Commander Ammonds as other the adult in the room,
(21:21):
the sensible leader, and don't get me wrong. I still
think that portrayal is mostly accurate. It's just incomplete. Knowing
that Commander Ammon's coached a young sergeant place back when
he was a rookie on the force tells me that
Ammon's probably isn't quite as impartial as I previously assumed.
Ammons is true blue, and at the very least, it's
(21:44):
time to start asking the commander some uncomfortable questions too,
just like everyone else at the stage of my investigation,
Please have a seat. So, Commander, having seen body cam
and dash cam footage from your officers during the Elsays
traffic stop, were you surprised at all by how aggressive
(22:04):
they were from the outset? I think if you look
back at my actions and decisions that day, you get
a clear indication of what behavior I thought was and
was not acceptable, whether it was from police officers or otherwise.
But respectfully, Commander, that's not what I asked. It's one
thing to condemn inappropriate actions after the fact. Well, I
get your drift, but there's a context or wish I
(22:27):
view everything. Okay, what's the context? I know that traffic
stops and domestic violence calls are the most dangerous scenarios
that our officers walk into on a daily basis, and
each one is different. Yes, and I understand that, I
think everyone does. But now let's set aside the fact
that there is an inherent level of danger and police work. Well,
that's my point though, Okay, I don't know that you
(22:48):
can ever take the threat of danger out of the equation. Okay, fine,
danger is a fixed part of the equation. I don't
want to argue that with you. But to the extent
that you can commander what I'm trying to get from
you based on your prior interactions with Sergeant Place, does
it add up that here Officer web for that matter,
acted the way they did from the outset. Were there
any red flags or other parts of the equation before
(23:11):
this traffic stop that indicated something like this might happen?
If you look at Officer Webb's file, he had two
complaints for excessive use of force that were resolved through
mediation and another one that was still under investigation at
the time of the Hayes traffics. Okay, and what about
Sergeant Place, and he complains about excessive force, any complaints
or investigations about using racist language or having views that
(23:34):
could be characterized as anti black. Sergeant Place and a
handful of other officers were flagged for comments made an
online chat room about a racist meme that had been
passed around. Okay, to my knowledge, that investigation was completed,
and I believe all officers involved were advised to intend
the department's racial sensitivity training programs. So basically, what you're
telling me is that of the two policemen who pulled
(23:56):
Niles over, one was being investigated for excessive use of
force and the other one had been involved in an
investigation for making inappropriate racial comments. Yes, but both men
were under your command, correct, Yes? M hm, A commander,
do you feel responsible at all for what happened to Niles?
As you pointed out, these men were under my command.
(24:18):
So I am burdened by the fact that this traffic
stop went so horribly wrong on my watch, And I'd
be lying if I didn't admit that part of the
problem that I think you're hinting at is institutional as well.
But ultimately, our officers are accountable for their own actions,
just as you or I have to be responsible for
what we do in our lives. And what would you
say is the primary responsibility of your office order. From
(24:40):
the time I arrived on the scene that afternoon and
on into the night, my every move was about finding
a way for us to diffuse this chaotic powder keg
and restore order. Okay, did it ever occur to you
that your opportunity to ensure order was removing Sergeant Place
an officer went from active duty when they were investigated
for police brutality and racism. I mean, isn't that your
(25:02):
powder head right there? I'd be a fool or worse
kid if I didn't admit that. Your question is one
worth asking, And maybe that's the lesson here. Diffuse the
little bombs before they become bigger bombs like the one
we faced that night. I don't have a problem conceding that, because,
as you know, by the time doctor Azadi exited the
building and then Martin shortly thereafter, I was facing a
(25:22):
problem so big that, regardless of how this thing started
and who started it, we the police were boxed into
a situation where we had to be proactive in determining
the final outcome. At that point, I felt I didn't
have a choice but to go on offense, and that's
when I had Captain Flores take me and his team
through the plan and what was that. It was all
(25:45):
very standard stuff. First we've got the power, then initiate
a triple breach entry with a RAM at each position.
Breach position one was at the northeast plate class window
because that's where we assumed HT one gerald would be.
Breach position too was at the front door, and breach
point three was on the west side window, which would
pretty much have them entering directly into the main bar area.
(26:07):
My men were given strict orders to maintain muzzle discipline.
That said, I did, at this juncture finally give them
the green light to fire. Once the assault had commenced,
I asked Detective Patterson how he felt when he was
told that the decision was made to take the building
by force. Well, that's the thing. Nobody officially told me anything,
(26:28):
but it was pretty apparent by what was going on.
The trailer was filled with squad guys and it pretty
much taken over the space. Close as anyone got to
tell him me they had given up the negotiations was
when Commander am And slapped me on the shoulder and
said something to the effect of, if you get the
h D on the line, again put him at ease
for us. So yeah, it pretty much told me all
(26:49):
I needed to know. So anyway, at officer of Rambo's
patched me into the mobile phone just in case Gerald
did call again, which I'm pretty sure he wouldn't, for
as I was concerned my work for the night was done.
When I stepped out the mobile command unit to get
some fresh air, I saw Hobbs and Homer seated on
the bench near the brake area. To him looked like
(27:11):
defeated teammates who had just lost a big game, and
so I went over to say what's up to them?
And I noticed out of the corner of my eye
this woman sitting by herself, and I said, to the guys,
don't turn around, but it's that the mother sitting at
your three o'clock. They both nodded their head yes at
the same time, like they were part of a comedy act.
(27:32):
I asked if anyone had gone over to talk to her,
but this time they shook their head no. So I
went over there and introduced myself. Hobbs and Harmer came too,
but they sort of hung back. I think most cops
would rather take a bullet than be the first to
talk to a grieving mother. Well, what was her I'd say? Detached?
(27:56):
I offered to have a grief counsel to come sit
with her, and she waited. What did she say? God
is my grief counselor Kate? In sense, Detective Patterson wasn't
telling me anything that I hadn't already learned scrolling through
my phone. I told him exactly what I wanted him
to do for me. And what was that. Michelle made
(28:18):
it clear and no uncertain terms, that she wanted to
see her son before he came out of that building.
And I told her, if the opportunity presented itself, I
would do everything I could to get her in there.
But in reality, the way those Square guys were tooling up,
I was doubt for they would even be a building
to walk into by the time they were done with
(28:39):
their assaults. So, Jason, after Martin leaves, what was the
mood like for you and Gerald while you were waiting
for me? Each second that passed ratch up more and
more pressure because I know what's coming next. Yeah, in
Gun's place, And what was Gerald's mood? Well, he thought
they had it all under control, So I think it
(29:00):
since I'm staying anyway, I might as well try to
talk to him again. Listen to Jay's convey his concerns
to Gerald. I hate to say it, man, but one
was right. What cops man bust on that door and
take us out raid on the raid. I'm going to
finish my business with that copy for me. Oh yeah, man,
(29:21):
I feel you. I just wanted to make sure you
knew what it is. But what if there was a
way to stop? What did you know what Gerald was
talking about? There? He sort of trailed off and before
we could get into it, sad you play started calling
out again. Hey, I want to go Can somebody give
(29:41):
you a phone? Please? I just want to go home.
Gerald walks over to the kitchen and through the double doors.
Sergeant Place continues his pleas as Gerald stares at the
policeman's desperation. Please Gerald, have a wife, thinks Susan. I
have a seven year old, point ninged Dan. The baby
girl rights. I just want to hear their voices one
(30:08):
more time. Okay, I just want to see goodbye. When
we go live, you can see you piece. So they
taking back to the dining Give me your phone too.
I need to make a coal Hello, very well, Jake no.
As Gerald talks on the phone, Jace wheels the policeman
(30:31):
back to the dining room and positions him on the
stage where the wounded cop would then wait for nearly
an hour PM. Sharp Gerald user account goes live again
on the polycam map. In the surveillance video, we can
see that Jason is recording the millions of people viewing
the live streams. See the two shot of Gerald and
Sergeant Play seated side by side. A running tally at
(30:53):
the bottom of the screen shows the votes updating in
real time. The official number when Gerald logs on is
three million, four hundred eight thousand, two hundred twenty three
up votes for innocent and three million, five two thousand,
one thirty eight down votes for guilty. You've got anything
(31:14):
else that you want to say, so right when Gerald
goes live, the first thing he does is give Sergeant
Place the opportunity to speak. But it's clear the policeman
is fighting to contain his emotions because you just see
him taking these long, deep breaths and sort of not
being able to get any words out. Colleen Sanders recounts,
(31:35):
and part of me wants to say that you could
hear a pin drop, But that's not an accurate description
of what it was like outside of Jase's forty two either,
because there was plenty of noise from helicopters flying overhead
and generators rumbling. But there was the eerie sensation of
silence because all of the people, the protesters, the onlookers,
(31:56):
the media, nobody was saying anything. And you just know instinctually,
when there's that many people packed into one area, you
should hear a crowd murmur, but it wasn't there. The
only voices I do remember hearing was the radio chatter
going back and forth between police that we were picking
up off of our scanner. The police radio chatter was
(32:19):
Captain Flora's giving orders to a swat team. In the
surveillance video, you can see the captain standing behind two
cop cars parked at forty five degree angles in the
shape of a V, positioned immediately in front of the building.
And then all of a sudden, there was this loud
(32:51):
cheer that swept through the crowd. Solle what what happened
(33:31):
out there? Confusion? Right? But why While me and my
team are still huddled around the scanner listening to the
police radio, we were of course, also watching Gerald's polycam
live stream on our phones as well, so we pretty
much know the police or moments away from launching an assault.
(33:53):
And as the police are literally counting down the seconds
before they make their move, that's when we hear super
loud roar from the crowd, and someone on the police
radio chimes in and tries to tell the captain there's
essentially an armed militia headed towards the restaurant. That was
one of the police nipers exactly. So then the captain
(34:14):
or someone hears this and tries to issue in order
to stand down, but between him and other people all
trying to communicate on the same line at the same time,
the police communications start coming across super distorted and basically unintelligible.
One of the swat teams, the one that was also
responsible for cutting the power, doesn't hear the stand down order,
(34:38):
so they keep going as originally planned and cut the lights,
then ram through the plate glass window that leads into
the main bar area, and that's when they release a
flash bang. Commander Ammons tells us his thoughts in that
moment when that flash bang went off, I thought all
hell was about to break loose you've got armed protesters
(34:59):
who at this point how their weapons trained on us.
SWAT is getting mixed signals or no signal at all,
and who knows how the ht S are gonna respond
to this. So I take off, running out of the
command trailer, screaming no go, and literally put my hands
on the lead SWAT team member to prevent them from
entering the building. Luckily, the other two teams never breached.
But now you have I don't know, maybe a hundred
(35:21):
or so armed men with weapons pointed at us the police,
and of course my men are now taking aim back
at them, And in that moment, I'm just praying that
nobody starts shooting. But I'm also thinking, how the hell
did this force mobilize on us so fast? Where did
they come from? Yeah? I got a phone call on
my call, I d said Jason, But it wasn't Jackson,
(35:44):
who was it? It was Gerald? Hello, what's up? Jack? No.
The first thing I wanted Jail to know that he
had my simple piece. I'm a father too. I think
you already know Kick that I thought the world of now.
So yeah, just a man and man talk. Okay, big age,
(36:06):
forgive me for being blunt I've listened to the recording
of the call between the two of you, and Look,
I'm just trying to figure out how and when Gerald
told you to bring armed men to Jason's forty two.
You can't figure it out because he didn't never tell
me to do no ship like that. Big age is right.
Gerald never makes an explicit request, but he does say this, listen,
(36:29):
if you need anything, I got you. Yeah, it looked
like one time, I'm trying to take down the movement
before we even finished where we started. You mean the
world to me, be the homies to show up? Show up?
What did Gerald mean by show up and show out?
Does that mean gang bangers? No, it's just some concerned
(36:52):
citizens making their voices heard. That's all okay, But how
is it they all ended up at Jason's forty two
so quickly they all came armed? This is still America? Right?
Did you coordinate the militia? Look, I put the word
out to the community that I was headed down to
Jase's forty two to stand up with cheek for Jason
(37:13):
and for now. But no, I never asked anyone to
bring a weapon. As the police mounted their failed assault
on the building and cut the power. Gerald, to his credit,
never did anything erratic. Even when the flash bang went off,
He didn't so much as flinch. Instead, as it became
(37:33):
clear that Swatt had aborted their takedown efforts and the
world around him was diving into a panic, Gerald coolly
offered this dark message before ending his live stream. Nothing
it's going to stop this trial from finishing. We go
out again, Bob minutes before to vote close. Join us
next time for the conclusion of Hashtag Hashtag Matter starring
(38:12):
Amen Joseph as Gerald Hayes, Jennifer Christopher as Kate Bell,
Steve Harris as Jason shaw Hayley, Joel Osmond as Sergeant Place,
Pooch Hall as Martin Simms, and Snoop Dogg as Big H.
Additional performances by Nile Bullock as Nile's Hayes, Serena Pouncey
(38:34):
as Michelle Hayes, Monte Russell as Detective Patterson, and Alex
Vaughan as Darrell Hanover. Hashtag Matter was written and directed
by Dylan C. Brown. Our executive producers are Sandy Bailey,
Lauren Holman, Dylan Brown, Winnie Kemp, and Amon Joseph. Audio
(38:56):
designed by Wolf at the Door. Sound design and Mick
by Josh Falcon, music by Jonathan Sandford, edited by Darren Boland,
and our sound director is Alexander Kemp. Produced by Toby
Lawless and Lucy Jones. Casting by Lawless Casting. Hashtag Matter
(39:18):
is a production of Shonda land Audio in partnership with
I Heart Radio and an association with Wolf at the Door.
For more podcasts from Shondaland Audio, visit the I Heart
Radio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you listen to your
favorite shows.
This podcast is a dramatization of fictionalized events that contains
culturally insensitive language and violence. Bring order, creator, I've never
(00:45):
done this before. So where do you want to start? Um,
let's just start with the basics. I guess let's start
with your name, title, and why you're relevant to the story. Okay, sure.
My name is Dr Sam Azotti. I'm the head of
internal medicine at St. Joseph's Hospital. And when Gerald Hayes
was in his standoff with the l a p D.
I was called in to administer care for his hostage.
(01:07):
Sergeant Dan Police And when you got the call, did
you have any second thoughts or reservations about entering the
building that night? Sure? But did I consider not going in? No? Never.
People really don't know how much danger you were in
that night. And when comparing the time stamp on the
police department's internal comms with the bar surveillance footage, it's
(01:28):
pretty clear that you were the only person standing in
the window at that time that they were considering a
snipe attempt. I mean, it was It's pretty scary if
you stop to think about it. But I guess I
caught a break. And what about Gerald? He scare you. No,
why not? I mean to be honest, I pitied the guy,
(01:49):
and obviously I don't meet and you know, I'm not
saying what he did was right, far from it. But
I saw what they did to his son. So I
want to play back for you the conversation you were
having with Gerald after you finished stabilizing Sergeant Place and
right before you left the building, because you say something
really interesting that I want to try to understand more.
(02:13):
Mr Hayes. Sorry, I wasn't given a chance to get
in here sooner. Maybe if I had, things could have
worked out differently for your boy. I'm sorry. Yeah, I'm
sorry too cool he's coming out, coming out. I've thought
(02:39):
a lot about this. How could it have worked out
differently for Niles? Well, he needed urgent care and what
he got was the exact opposite of that. Ye. Can
you elaborate on that, sure, But I I think it's
important that I prefaced this by saying I have the
add advantage point of having read niles is autopsy report. Obviously, Okay,
(03:00):
So basically he needed a breathing tube on site, and
he should have been placed on a ventilator as quickly
as possible and my hospital was less than five minutes away.
The kid basically suffocated to death. So in your expert opinion,
let's say Gerald surrendered immediately in the medics were able
(03:21):
to get Niles to the hospital. That I'm almost certain
that Nile survives, you know, but probably paralyzed for the
rest of his life. But I'm almost certain he survived.
So by that logic, based on your medical opinion, it
seems undeniable that Gerald is at least some part responsible
for niles death, right, Yeah, I mean, well, if if
(03:43):
you look, if you're looking to assign fault, I don't
see how Gerald doesn't share a portion of the blade.
It seems like his behavior was negligent at best. But again,
that's that's just my medical opinion. It's not a legal opinion, right,
I don't know. Oh you know, I'm just a doctor, right,
I'm not a lawyer. I just have one more thing.
(04:06):
When you said that you wish things could have turned
out differently, Gerald says, I'm sorry too. Did you get
the impression that he was saying he was sorry, like
he was sorry about the whole situation, Sorry that the
police dragged their feet and getting a medic or a
doctor in there, or do you think that he was
sorry for his actions, that that he didn't actually stand down. Well, yeah,
(04:32):
I just I just took it as sorry about the
whole situation. You know, who knows what was really going
through his mind at the time, especially you know, considering
the state that he was in. You know, I mean, honestly,
your guess is as good as mine. You know this much.
I know Niles needed immediate medical attention. He didn't get it,
(04:53):
and it proved to be fatal. Doctor Zatti's po V
weighed heavily on me and heart because he's a medical professional,
but also because he's probably the most impartial person that
I've had the opportunity to interview in this process, and
it's forcing me to face something about this investigation that
I've been sort of doing this weird dance with previously.
(05:16):
You heard what happened when I pressed Jas about Gerald's
potential culpability in the way things went down that day.
Get this thing off me, I ain doing this bullshit.
I'd be lying if I said that exchange didn't affect me,
because the truth is, I know I've been pulling my
punches with Jace ever since for lots of reasons, but
if I'm being totally honest with myself, the main reason
(05:39):
is fear. Fear that I might be misconstrued as a
journalistic Karen of sorts for not being woken enough to
understand and empathize with the millions of people who voted
Sergeant Place guilty, and to an extent, I guess you
can say I feared being canceled or thought of as
someone who just doesn't get it. If you remember back
(06:00):
to episode one, I mentioned how my fixation with the
comment posted by at Wilkinsassi is what started me on
this journey in the first place, where she said at
Gerald O g is a hero for taking matters into
his own hands. But Dr Zotti's assessment not only flies
in the face of that, it basically implicates Gerald. And
(06:20):
of course I'm not saying that this in any way
absolves Sergeant Place an Officer Web of their actions, but
it does highlight for me how completely unsettled I am
with how I should view everything that Gerald did that day,
and so far, the best I can come up with
is that all of these men, Gerald, Sergeant Place, and
Officer Web are in varying degrees accomplices accomplices in the
(06:45):
death of Niles Hayes. But at the end of the day,
only one person bore the duties of a father. Only
Gerald had an obligation to Niles that transcends time and space.
And as admirable and selfless and courageous as it was
for him to dive into the fray and protect his
son when the cops were beating on him, well shouldn't
(07:07):
that same instinct have been enough to make him stand
down to save his son as well? Bottom line, after
talking to doctor Assotti, it's just hard to argue the
fact that Gerald fucked up, and it's reprehensible. So going forward,
if I'm not drilling down on this point with Jason others,
I'm just not doing my job, which means, whether I
(07:30):
like it or not, I have some difficult conversations ahead
of me. And if I get canceled in the process,
so be it. Doctor Azadi came into the budge is
as cool, calm and collected as you want to be.
So Jason, look, I just want to double back on
something that came up in my conversation with the doctor
about nats is passing, and I have to ask you
(07:52):
something point blank, who in your estimation, is responsible for
his death, Sergeant place in office as well? Who else? Yes?
But have you given any more thought to the role
Gerald might have played in this passage? The autopsy report
indicates that if Niles received timely and I don't exactly
(08:12):
call being paralyzed from the neck down. Okay, But is
there any part of you that thinks that Gerald made
a mistake in not trying to get Nile's medical attention?
What are you talking about? We did try to get help.
I was there, I made the calling out, you heard
the takes. You're right, I have. But one could argue
that if Gerald had surrendered instead of digging his heels
(08:32):
and Niles would have been taken to the hospital. One
could also argue, Kate, that if those racists as cops
didn't beat Niles to death, he would not have died.
And my argument is better. Okay, So you asked me
a question if I think Gerald fucked up? The answer
is no. Get to the next question. Okay. So Gerald
never expressed any regrets to you about the way things
(08:54):
went down? And what about you? What about me? What
regret anything? So you're blaming me? Now? No, Jase, But
it's It's only natural to replay events that don't go
the way that we want them to go and wish
for some different outcomes. So I never, I never should
(09:15):
have let now was drive my car's no no, no no,
no hold up by saying had nothing to do with
now it's getting killed, didn't it? Though? You were just
playing that should have would have could have gained with
me about Gerald surrendering earlier. Well what if now It's
took Gerald's hooped instead of my car when he went
to pick up them tickets. Now I'll never get stopped
(09:36):
by the police, he doesn't get pulled over, he don't die.
What I regret, Kate, It's the reason I had. Now
I was taking my car, which was what ego. I
didn't want him pulling up to a Beverly Hills office
(09:58):
driving Gerald's busted at as always gonna be bild because
I thought it would make me look bad. But how
could you have imagined that Niles would end up? That's
what I've been That's why I'm trying to get you
to get Every black man in America is already imagine
(10:23):
a thousand ways how this ship could go wrong. And really,
you don't even need a fucking imagination because you keep
seeing this ship over and over over. Mhm. What haunts me?
(10:45):
What haunts me to this day? It said, Look I
saw in Gerald's face when I gave his boy my cockies.
They know he knew it was a bad idea, but
he didn't stop it because he didn't want to disappoint
(11:08):
his son. For the second time, Jay stopped our interview short,
but this time he came back, all right, what else
you want to know? So, um, setting aside right and wrong,
guilt and innocence, who's to blame and not to blame?
(11:30):
I mean, is there any part of Gerald's thinking that
day that you just flat out disagreed with? And you
need to be most specific, okay, like you just didn't
understand where he was coming from. Look, okay, so I'll
say this. I think the one place well Gerald was
off base and like almost delusional, was him holding onto
(11:52):
this idea that he would be able to finish the
trial what without the police doing everything they could to
stop them, even if that meant risking Sergeant places life
in the process. Gerald had bagged them into such a
tight spot that they forced to protect something bigger than
just one cop. Just like the system, and for most
(12:15):
of the evening G just could not see that, but
the signs was everywhere. Welcome back to the show. I
want to pick up the conversation with something we were
discussing during the break, Go ahead to talk about them,
Thank you, Ryan. It occurred to me that beyond the
criminality of vigilante justice, which again I do not endorse,
I heard just pointing out that if Gerald Hayes is
(12:36):
able to carry out a trial and execute a judgment
through social media, this will be has disrupted to our
legal system as Master was to the music industry at
the turn of the Center, Abster, if I may, yes, Pa,
And to me, the most important thing is that law
enforcement do the right thing right now, and to me
that means the police force needs to take control of
the situation on and I just don't see how to
(12:58):
let them get as far as thinking that they would
be justified in executing a police officer and publishing that
live let a already praise it enough to act as
if they are as powerful as courts. That's just uncomfortable.
It's wait, wait, wait, let me, let me let me
get to the point there. So what do you say
they have to neutralize the threatened immediately. Somebody on the
ground has to be working on that. That was the
(13:19):
moment I thought it might finally set in for Gerald,
But when I looked over at him, he still had
a vibe like it didn't seem to face him. And
what exactly was it that you expected it? That we
was in deep ship and it probably would have flown
right over his head again, But Martin, Martin, of all people,
may have been the one to finally get through the
(13:40):
g Listen to this exchange from the surveillance cameras as
Martin confronts Gerald, you see what you did? Gerald, I
am fucking talking to you. Don't start with me again, Martin,
how about you fucking stop? All right? Did you have
basically signed our death? Want the funk are you talking?
(14:02):
What am I talking about? That guy just spelled it
out for you on national television, Like, like, what do
you think the police were gonna do when they found
out about your brilliant cops killer plan? Because all you've
done is giving them an excuse to come in here
and kill us all But but please don't do it
in the next couple of hours, because I'm a complete
fucking idiot watching man. No, I have been watching. I
(14:26):
have been watching everything that's happened today. The cops killed
your son, okay, and and and I saw that. But
and I truly am sorry, Gerald, I really am. But
I am not dying for that ship. Jason. No, Jays,
you chill the funk out, because I've done chilling because
this is just not my fight. It's not it's not
(14:49):
yours either, Jason, you know, okay, But let me ask you, so, Gerald,
do you really think Jason wants to ride this out
with you. I've known this fucking for of all time,
and he's just the self of society, if not more.
He's just gonna say to your face because you know,
you guys are boys, remark my words. When push comes
(15:11):
to shove, he's going to cut you loosely and go
for somefing just like he did when you guys chance,
when he rated you up. I bet you think I
knew that hum In a flash, Jason's reflexes, speed and
quickness returned to him as he charges. Martin tackles him
to the ground and then pummels him with a series
of wild punches and enraged, Jason wraps his hands around
(15:40):
Martin's neck and starts to squeeze until please, please, please, please,
please please don't let that be what I think it is.
You thought Gerald killed certain place I did. Seconds after
Gerald fires his rifle into the ceiling, the throw line
phone starts to ring. Listen to this phone call between
(16:03):
Detective Patterson and Gerald. Gee, what's going on in there?
It's under control, Detective. Everyone's fine, just needed to blow
off from steam. Well, we have a lot of cops
out here. They would love to blossom steam too. Trust me, Gee,
you don't want that, and I don't want that either. Well,
Gerald continues his call. In the surveillance video, we see
Martin collect himself off the ground and staggered towards the
(16:25):
front door when Gerald stops him. From the looks of
Martin's body language, you can see a man who's bracing
for the worst. Detective, I got two outs. That's just
coming out. We got to coming out. Don't shoot, don't shoot.
They took my feet out from money so fast, had
(16:46):
my head face down on the pavement and come white
and little eyes, my hands behind my back. But I
could not have felt more relieved, Martin recounts, and I
vividly remember thinking of myself at the time, I thank
God like over and done with, you know, but that
(17:08):
what like I had no idea that that day would
come to define me and follow me for the rest
of my life, that would be my legacy. And in
that sense, you know, what I thought was the end
was really just the beginning. You know. H I mentioned
(17:30):
before that people recognize me as the guy who recorded
what the police did to Niles, and how people see
me as either usually one of two ways. It's either, Hey,
you're one of the guys who stood up to the
police man, Good for you, man, or it's you're one
(17:52):
of those police kidnappers, aren't you. The truth is neither
one of those bothers me as much as the third
type of person. What's the third? You see, there's this
narrative out there that, uh, I'm somehow a sellout because
I didn't stay with Gerald to the end. And you
(18:13):
want to know the toughest thing about that, Hm, it's
my people who are the ones who call me a
sell out. So if you could change that narrative, what
would you want them to know about you? That I'm
the one guy who, without a doubt didn't commit any
crimes that day. I'm the one guy who video Niles
getting brutalized from start to finish, which means I documented
(18:36):
the truth I protested now is getting beat I protested
kidnapping a police officer, and I protested killing a police officer.
And I'm a sell out. I'm not a sellout. I'm
just a guy who ended up in a really bad
situation who managed to get out of it. So what
does that say about you? I'm a Savira Kate. As
(19:00):
a swat team hoisted Martin off the asphalt and marched
him away from the building. You can see him sort
of look over his shoulder to see if Jas was
behind him, but he wasn't there. Listen to this exchange
between Jason Gerald as Martin gets whisked away from the bar.
I don't go. Yeah, I'm will hold it down with you.
(19:25):
Don't worry about that other ship you think all these years.
I know it was you. He slash man, good, good
old man. Gerald tells you to leave multiple times. He
forgives you for that thing between you guys when you
were kids, and you still stayed. Why I don't know.
(19:50):
Don't get me wrong, I didn't look at it so
much as I was staying to help geraldn't standoff. I
think it was more. Uh, I think it was this
is my only real rand. He just lost his son
and I ain't going bail plus plus what I mean?
(20:10):
It was about me too, Other than sports. Whenever things
have gotten tough in my life, I've always looked for
the nearest doing marked easy way out. I ran right
through it, not this time. This is a team photo
(20:37):
from the police department in the Merroal Basketball League. I've
coaches squad with Detective Homer for twenty years now, but
this is the only time we won the championship. Palmer
looks the same. Wait, is that certain place it is?
I forgot he was on that roster. He was a
rookie on the forest that year. Here's a pentu. You're
(21:00):
me being sworn in with you can. As Commander Ammonds
offers me a virtual tour of his professional life. By
telling little anecdotes about the many photos hung on his
office wall, it becomes clearer to me how intimate the
fraternity among police officers really is. For some reason, I
always saw Commander Ammonds as other the adult in the room,
(21:21):
the sensible leader, and don't get me wrong. I still
think that portrayal is mostly accurate. It's just incomplete. Knowing
that Commander Ammon's coached a young sergeant place back when
he was a rookie on the force tells me that
Ammon's probably isn't quite as impartial as I previously assumed.
Ammons is true blue, and at the very least, it's
(21:44):
time to start asking the commander some uncomfortable questions too,
just like everyone else at the stage of my investigation,
Please have a seat. So, Commander, having seen body cam
and dash cam footage from your officers during the Elsays
traffic stop, were you surprised at all by how aggressive
(22:04):
they were from the outset? I think if you look
back at my actions and decisions that day, you get
a clear indication of what behavior I thought was and
was not acceptable, whether it was from police officers or otherwise.
But respectfully, Commander, that's not what I asked. It's one
thing to condemn inappropriate actions after the fact. Well, I
get your drift, but there's a context or wish I
(22:27):
view everything. Okay, what's the context? I know that traffic
stops and domestic violence calls are the most dangerous scenarios
that our officers walk into on a daily basis, and
each one is different. Yes, and I understand that, I
think everyone does. But now let's set aside the fact
that there is an inherent level of danger and police work. Well,
that's my point though, Okay, I don't know that you
(22:48):
can ever take the threat of danger out of the equation. Okay, fine,
danger is a fixed part of the equation. I don't
want to argue that with you. But to the extent
that you can commander what I'm trying to get from
you based on your prior interactions with Sergeant Place, does
it add up that here Officer web for that matter,
acted the way they did from the outset. Were there
any red flags or other parts of the equation before
(23:11):
this traffic stop that indicated something like this might happen?
If you look at Officer Webb's file, he had two
complaints for excessive use of force that were resolved through
mediation and another one that was still under investigation at
the time of the Hayes traffics. Okay, and what about
Sergeant Place, and he complains about excessive force, any complaints
or investigations about using racist language or having views that
(23:34):
could be characterized as anti black. Sergeant Place and a
handful of other officers were flagged for comments made an
online chat room about a racist meme that had been
passed around. Okay, to my knowledge, that investigation was completed,
and I believe all officers involved were advised to intend
the department's racial sensitivity training programs. So basically, what you're
telling me is that of the two policemen who pulled
(23:56):
Niles over, one was being investigated for excessive use of
force and the other one had been involved in an
investigation for making inappropriate racial comments. Yes, but both men
were under your command, correct, Yes? M hm, A commander,
do you feel responsible at all for what happened to Niles?
As you pointed out, these men were under my command.
(24:18):
So I am burdened by the fact that this traffic
stop went so horribly wrong on my watch, And I'd
be lying if I didn't admit that part of the
problem that I think you're hinting at is institutional as well.
But ultimately, our officers are accountable for their own actions,
just as you or I have to be responsible for
what we do in our lives. And what would you
say is the primary responsibility of your office order. From
(24:40):
the time I arrived on the scene that afternoon and
on into the night, my every move was about finding
a way for us to diffuse this chaotic powder keg
and restore order. Okay, did it ever occur to you
that your opportunity to ensure order was removing Sergeant Place
an officer went from active duty when they were investigated
for police brutality and racism. I mean, isn't that your
(25:02):
powder head right there? I'd be a fool or worse
kid if I didn't admit that. Your question is one
worth asking, And maybe that's the lesson here. Diffuse the
little bombs before they become bigger bombs like the one
we faced that night. I don't have a problem conceding that, because,
as you know, by the time doctor Azadi exited the
building and then Martin shortly thereafter, I was facing a
(25:22):
problem so big that, regardless of how this thing started
and who started it, we the police were boxed into
a situation where we had to be proactive in determining
the final outcome. At that point, I felt I didn't
have a choice but to go on offense, and that's
when I had Captain Flores take me and his team
through the plan and what was that. It was all
(25:45):
very standard stuff. First we've got the power, then initiate
a triple breach entry with a RAM at each position.
Breach position one was at the northeast plate class window
because that's where we assumed HT one gerald would be.
Breach position too was at the front door, and breach
point three was on the west side window, which would
pretty much have them entering directly into the main bar area.
(26:07):
My men were given strict orders to maintain muzzle discipline.
That said, I did, at this juncture finally give them
the green light to fire. Once the assault had commenced,
I asked Detective Patterson how he felt when he was
told that the decision was made to take the building
by force. Well, that's the thing. Nobody officially told me anything,
(26:28):
but it was pretty apparent by what was going on.
The trailer was filled with squad guys and it pretty
much taken over the space. Close as anyone got to
tell him me they had given up the negotiations was
when Commander am And slapped me on the shoulder and
said something to the effect of, if you get the
h D on the line, again put him at ease
for us. So yeah, it pretty much told me all
(26:49):
I needed to know. So anyway, at officer of Rambo's
patched me into the mobile phone just in case Gerald
did call again, which I'm pretty sure he wouldn't, for
as I was concerned my work for the night was done.
When I stepped out the mobile command unit to get
some fresh air, I saw Hobbs and Homer seated on
the bench near the brake area. To him looked like
(27:11):
defeated teammates who had just lost a big game, and
so I went over to say what's up to them?
And I noticed out of the corner of my eye
this woman sitting by herself, and I said, to the guys,
don't turn around, but it's that the mother sitting at
your three o'clock. They both nodded their head yes at
the same time, like they were part of a comedy act.
(27:32):
I asked if anyone had gone over to talk to her,
but this time they shook their head no. So I
went over there and introduced myself. Hobbs and Harmer came too,
but they sort of hung back. I think most cops
would rather take a bullet than be the first to
talk to a grieving mother. Well, what was her I'd say? Detached?
(27:56):
I offered to have a grief counsel to come sit
with her, and she waited. What did she say? God
is my grief counselor Kate? In sense, Detective Patterson wasn't
telling me anything that I hadn't already learned scrolling through
my phone. I told him exactly what I wanted him
to do for me. And what was that. Michelle made
(28:18):
it clear and no uncertain terms, that she wanted to
see her son before he came out of that building.
And I told her, if the opportunity presented itself, I
would do everything I could to get her in there.
But in reality, the way those Square guys were tooling up,
I was doubt for they would even be a building
to walk into by the time they were done with
(28:39):
their assaults. So, Jason, after Martin leaves, what was the
mood like for you and Gerald while you were waiting
for me? Each second that passed ratch up more and
more pressure because I know what's coming next. Yeah, in
Gun's place, And what was Gerald's mood? Well, he thought
they had it all under control, So I think it
(29:00):
since I'm staying anyway, I might as well try to
talk to him again. Listen to Jay's convey his concerns
to Gerald. I hate to say it, man, but one
was right. What cops man bust on that door and
take us out raid on the raid. I'm going to
finish my business with that copy for me. Oh yeah, man,
(29:21):
I feel you. I just wanted to make sure you
knew what it is. But what if there was a
way to stop? What did you know what Gerald was
talking about? There? He sort of trailed off and before
we could get into it, sad you play started calling
out again. Hey, I want to go Can somebody give
(29:41):
you a phone? Please? I just want to go home.
Gerald walks over to the kitchen and through the double doors.
Sergeant Place continues his pleas as Gerald stares at the
policeman's desperation. Please Gerald, have a wife, thinks Susan. I
have a seven year old, point ninged Dan. The baby
girl rights. I just want to hear their voices one
(30:08):
more time. Okay, I just want to see goodbye. When
we go live, you can see you piece. So they
taking back to the dining Give me your phone too.
I need to make a coal Hello, very well, Jake no.
As Gerald talks on the phone, Jace wheels the policeman
(30:31):
back to the dining room and positions him on the
stage where the wounded cop would then wait for nearly
an hour PM. Sharp Gerald user account goes live again
on the polycam map. In the surveillance video, we can
see that Jason is recording the millions of people viewing
the live streams. See the two shot of Gerald and
Sergeant Play seated side by side. A running tally at
(30:53):
the bottom of the screen shows the votes updating in
real time. The official number when Gerald logs on is
three million, four hundred eight thousand, two hundred twenty three
up votes for innocent and three million, five two thousand,
one thirty eight down votes for guilty. You've got anything
(31:14):
else that you want to say, so right when Gerald
goes live, the first thing he does is give Sergeant
Place the opportunity to speak. But it's clear the policeman
is fighting to contain his emotions because you just see
him taking these long, deep breaths and sort of not
being able to get any words out. Colleen Sanders recounts,
(31:35):
and part of me wants to say that you could
hear a pin drop, But that's not an accurate description
of what it was like outside of Jase's forty two either,
because there was plenty of noise from helicopters flying overhead
and generators rumbling. But there was the eerie sensation of
silence because all of the people, the protesters, the onlookers,
(31:56):
the media, nobody was saying anything. And you just know instinctually,
when there's that many people packed into one area, you
should hear a crowd murmur, but it wasn't there. The
only voices I do remember hearing was the radio chatter
going back and forth between police that we were picking
up off of our scanner. The police radio chatter was
(32:19):
Captain Flora's giving orders to a swat team. In the
surveillance video, you can see the captain standing behind two
cop cars parked at forty five degree angles in the
shape of a V, positioned immediately in front of the building.
And then all of a sudden, there was this loud
(32:51):
cheer that swept through the crowd. Solle what what happened
(33:31):
out there? Confusion? Right? But why While me and my
team are still huddled around the scanner listening to the
police radio, we were of course, also watching Gerald's polycam
live stream on our phones as well, so we pretty
much know the police or moments away from launching an assault.
(33:53):
And as the police are literally counting down the seconds
before they make their move, that's when we hear super
loud roar from the crowd, and someone on the police
radio chimes in and tries to tell the captain there's
essentially an armed militia headed towards the restaurant. That was
one of the police nipers exactly. So then the captain
(34:14):
or someone hears this and tries to issue in order
to stand down, but between him and other people all
trying to communicate on the same line at the same time,
the police communications start coming across super distorted and basically unintelligible.
One of the swat teams, the one that was also
responsible for cutting the power, doesn't hear the stand down order,
(34:38):
so they keep going as originally planned and cut the lights,
then ram through the plate glass window that leads into
the main bar area, and that's when they release a
flash bang. Commander Ammons tells us his thoughts in that
moment when that flash bang went off, I thought all
hell was about to break loose you've got armed protesters
(34:59):
who at this point how their weapons trained on us.
SWAT is getting mixed signals or no signal at all,
and who knows how the ht S are gonna respond
to this. So I take off, running out of the
command trailer, screaming no go, and literally put my hands
on the lead SWAT team member to prevent them from
entering the building. Luckily, the other two teams never breached.
But now you have I don't know, maybe a hundred
(35:21):
or so armed men with weapons pointed at us the police,
and of course my men are now taking aim back
at them, And in that moment, I'm just praying that
nobody starts shooting. But I'm also thinking, how the hell
did this force mobilize on us so fast? Where did
they come from? Yeah? I got a phone call on
my call, I d said Jason, But it wasn't Jackson,
(35:44):
who was it? It was Gerald? Hello, what's up? Jack? No.
The first thing I wanted Jail to know that he
had my simple piece. I'm a father too. I think
you already know Kick that I thought the world of now.
So yeah, just a man and man talk. Okay, big age,
(36:06):
forgive me for being blunt I've listened to the recording
of the call between the two of you, and Look,
I'm just trying to figure out how and when Gerald
told you to bring armed men to Jason's forty two.
You can't figure it out because he didn't never tell
me to do no ship like that. Big age is right.
Gerald never makes an explicit request, but he does say this, listen,
(36:29):
if you need anything, I got you. Yeah, it looked
like one time, I'm trying to take down the movement
before we even finished where we started. You mean the
world to me, be the homies to show up? Show up?
What did Gerald mean by show up and show out?
Does that mean gang bangers? No, it's just some concerned
(36:52):
citizens making their voices heard. That's all okay, But how
is it they all ended up at Jason's forty two
so quickly they all came armed? This is still America? Right?
Did you coordinate the militia? Look, I put the word
out to the community that I was headed down to
Jase's forty two to stand up with cheek for Jason
(37:13):
and for now. But no, I never asked anyone to
bring a weapon. As the police mounted their failed assault
on the building and cut the power. Gerald, to his credit,
never did anything erratic. Even when the flash bang went off,
He didn't so much as flinch. Instead, as it became
(37:33):
clear that Swatt had aborted their takedown efforts and the
world around him was diving into a panic, Gerald coolly
offered this dark message before ending his live stream. Nothing
it's going to stop this trial from finishing. We go
out again, Bob minutes before to vote close. Join us
next time for the conclusion of Hashtag Hashtag Matter starring
(38:12):
Amen Joseph as Gerald Hayes, Jennifer Christopher as Kate Bell,
Steve Harris as Jason shaw Hayley, Joel Osmond as Sergeant Place,
Pooch Hall as Martin Simms, and Snoop Dogg as Big H.
Additional performances by Nile Bullock as Nile's Hayes, Serena Pouncey
(38:34):
as Michelle Hayes, Monte Russell as Detective Patterson, and Alex
Vaughan as Darrell Hanover. Hashtag Matter was written and directed
by Dylan C. Brown. Our executive producers are Sandy Bailey,
Lauren Holman, Dylan Brown, Winnie Kemp, and Amon Joseph. Audio
(38:56):
designed by Wolf at the Door. Sound design and Mick
by Josh Falcon, music by Jonathan Sandford, edited by Darren Boland,
and our sound director is Alexander Kemp. Produced by Toby
Lawless and Lucy Jones. Casting by Lawless Casting. Hashtag Matter
(39:18):
is a production of Shonda land Audio in partnership with
I Heart Radio and an association with Wolf at the Door.
For more podcasts from Shondaland Audio, visit the I Heart
Radio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you listen to your
favorite shows.
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