October 20, 2022 • 38 mins
This week on the show, Jordan and Janis welcome you to MeatEater's newest podcast, Gear Talk, where they explore their favorite -- and sometimes not-so-favorite -- pieces of gear. Later, they talk to First Lite's western big game guru, Matt Derosiers.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:12):
All right, welcome to an episode of gear Talk where
Jordan Bud and I be honest but tell us we're
gonna talk all things gear. We just started this. We're
both super excited about it. Um. We love talking gear
and we want to help you understand and know and
(00:34):
just feel more comfortable, uh talking about gear, Understanding gear,
making good good gear, buying decisions when you're out there.
It's a big world of hunting gear these days, and
uh hopefully this podcastle um help you make some of
those decisions and get you out there in the right gear.
But my I just want to give a little bit
(00:54):
on myself. We're gonna do a little host intro bio today.
I spent twelve years as a hunting and fishing guide,
mostly down in Colorado, a little bit, uh little, did
a little bit of guiding in Old Mexico, but mostly Colorado.
Also did four years at the same time, I did
four years in retail, which was good. Um. I didn't
(01:18):
necessarily always like uh folding T shirts and sweaters, but
I did get to sit through a lot of pre
technical gear what do they call that, phil when like
a rep comes to the store, and then clinic gear
clinic training. Yeah. Um, and just I enjoyed that part
(01:39):
about about selling retail. You know, it's cool to learn
all about the new, latest and greatest and stuff, and
it just it opened up my sort of my experience
with all the gear that's out there by just being
able to work with, you know, all different types of
brands and products in the store, which was Starmaking Sports
and Edwards Colorado. If you ever down in that neck
(02:01):
of the woods, which is Eagle County, Colorado, go check
it out. It's a cool store. And then I've also
done ten years in outdoor TV production as many of
you know, producing Meat Eater television and uh doing Me
Eat podcast with Steve and now doing my own show
(02:21):
on the Hunt with the Honest Pitelis, which is available
on the Meat eat or YouTube channel. So, yeah, short
little bio on me Jordan's let me hear, let me
hear what your last twenty years have been all about? Yeah.
So started, uh originally from northwest Nebraska on a family ranch.
(02:42):
Was where I grew up and went high school and
all that stuff. Um, So I started guiding there and
that's really how I started, I mean just getting into
hunting stuff. I started guiding and then I really like
cameras also when I was in high school and college,
so picked up camera started filming just uh, you know,
(03:03):
meeting people and making contacts. One thing led to the other,
and I started filming for an outdoor television show and
that took me all over the place. And that's really
we're like the Western hunting bug I think came from.
I mean, I always wanted to go out west before
and do my own hunts. But then when I started filming, um,
you know, that obviously opened my eyes to a lot
(03:25):
of things. And I got a lot of experiences in
a lot of different places, on a lot of different hunts.
And that's I was able to try a ton of gear,
you know, doing that, a bunch of different gear and
a bunch of different situations and environments. And I just
I'm kind of a gear junkie anyways. And I don't
know really why other than I just like knowing what
(03:46):
I take and more so the why behind why you're
taking it. And uh, that's one of the reasons I'm
super excited for this podcast is to you know, bring
all that so consumers can make a more educated purchase,
you know, going on some of these extreme hunts that
you only get to go once in a lifetime. On. Yeah,
that's a a good point about like being a gear junkie,
(04:10):
and and then it kind of transitions right into how
much money you spend on gear. I felt like there
was years for sure where I was guiding Elk Counts
and I was spending as much money on the gear
to to go and guide as I was probably making
throughout the whole season, just because I was so into it,
you know, trying different foots or backpacks or whatever. And uh,
(04:34):
I've never been known to be like a great real
frugal you know, with the with the cash, but uh,
I guess that's what's hopefully helped me in to give
me some experience so I can do this job better. Now, Um,
I wanna you didn't really hit on it too hard,
but I want to ask you a question you've been on?
How many sheep punts have you been on? Not for
(04:55):
your personal self but just all total? How many sheep
punts I'm pretty sure are I think it's sixteen now, oh,
with this last Wyoming hunt that I filmed last year,
and how many of those have been in Alaska? There
have been one in Alaska and that was mine. Okay,
so that was your first time up there. Sheep hunt
was when you went. Yeah. Everything else was desert big
(05:18):
horns in Mexico. Uh, I've done three, three or four
of those, and then um in Wyoming a bunch of
big horn sheep punts was most of it. Um one
stones in the Yukon, and then my dollar sheep in Alaska,
so only only one in Alaska. What was the first
(05:43):
thing we wanted to hit on Jordan's I pulled a
listener question out um talking about what's a key item
that you change in your pack from early to the
mid season. So that would just be in my mind
considerations of the weather changing more so probably than anything,
start getting snowstorms in that like late September, early October
(06:06):
and then on through October, I suppose. Um, So yeah,
I mean, I think one of the bigger things for
me is that temperature dropping and wanting to add in
my own compadre puffy pants into the mix to make
the early mornings of glassing and later evenings a little
more comfortable. Yeah. Man, I love those pants, and a
(06:27):
lot of times with those pants I've come to not
packing even on the back country hunt, not packing long
underwear and just doing regular pants and the uncompagre of
puffy pants because I know that we have zip off
Long John's now, but it's even easier, I think, to
zip off those uncompagres, and those things are so much
(06:47):
warmer and so much thicker, and um, like you said,
kind of seems like something you're gonna wear first thing
and then last thing in the day, and so it's
really easy to zip them off, cram them into the
bio of the pack, and not really pull them back
out until later. So I like them. Although it might
be a little bit heavier than going Long John's, like,
it's definitely way way warmer. But yeah, that's a nice
(07:11):
piece of gear. Um I was gonna go with. I mean,
obviously closed in general, you're just gonna be packing a
little bit more because you're gonna have to just have
more installation, you know, to stay warm. But I would
say that one of my main like items of gear,
and it's kind of a two part thing, but it's
like shelter and then like the sleeping system because early
(07:33):
season I'm always just trying to like push it and
go as light as possible with the lightest sleeping bag
and the lightest shelter as possible, because you know, even
if you get a little wet or if something crappy
happens in early September, it's usually just not gonna last,
you know, and it's not gonna be enough to drive
me out of the mountains. But like if that happens
(07:54):
in October and you get kind of miserable, boy, it
is very easy for that to push and back back
to the trailhead. So um, I'm gonna go to definitely
a zero degree bag. Like I like to sleep warm
and like to be super comfy, and so if it
gets into October at all, I'm going zero degree bag
(08:16):
even late September sometimes, and I'm happily going to carry
that extra little bit of weight. And then there's gonna
be no more tarp shelters or like just like the
super lightweight stuff, I want a more robust shelter that
I can really count on to stand up to the wind.
I'm gonna make sure that I got all my guidelines
(08:37):
set up. I got plenty of steaks, you know, to
handle a wind event or handle like a heavy snow event.
And then if I know or if I think it's
gonna be on the colder side, Like I'll pack a
floorless shelter like a again depending on how many people
are gonna be in it, but like a seek outside
Simmarron or Red Cliff, that I can have a stove
(08:59):
in and burn wood and be super comfy. Like I
know a d for a fact that I've been in
a ton of just really good hunting conditions really because
you like it when it's cold and it's snowing and stuff.
It just keeps the animals on their feet more. But
if you can't stay comfortable in those conditions, you know
(09:20):
you're not going to be out there. But having that
shelter that you can come back to in the evenings
light of fire, warm up, dry out, some gear, sleep
super comfy and toasty, it keeps you out there and
thus hopefully makes you more successful. Yeah, huge mental boost
being able to to come back after a long day
(09:41):
and uh let the fire. It really changes your attitude
or it can um and make you a little more
excited about having to uh you know, get up early
the next day and go out and do it again.
So that's one thing on my list as well, is uh,
start thinking about when you you know you get snowstorms,
especially that early October time frame. Seems like those snowstorms,
(10:05):
just like late September, really wet and sloshy. They might
melt pretty quick, but also means they're pretty wet and
um being able to go light a stove and dry
all your stuff out again, it's just gonna let you
be more comfortable and stay out there longer. So that's
something certainly on my list. Oh yeah, it's a dent.
The difference between miserable and like very content and happy. Yeah, yeah,
(10:30):
it makes it makes a huge difference. A simple thing
called fire. Yeah, that's another thing that's definitely got to
be considered later too. I mean other things to go
right along with that, like fire starters one you've got
to be thinking about. I think a little bit more,
especially for the safety side of things. If you get
in a situation, you have to start one. So I
(10:52):
really like that pyro putty. Have you used that? I
haven't used actual pyro putty. I have something similar that's
called like a as a bit cube, which is actually
used for they make a whole there's a whole like
cooking system, stove system that uses these little cubes um,
but it's basically like a small little cube. I don't
(11:12):
know how much it weighs. It might be like the
size of my thumb weighs the same as my thumb,
but it'll it burns for ten minutes, one little cube.
So yeah, it's it's should give you ample time to
you know, add on your kindling and whatever and get
yourself a ripper going yeah, yeah, I think a good
fire starter is good, like very flammable to give you
(11:35):
a good base to start with. And then I mean
I usually take a tarp with me all the time anyways,
but I would say, especially when the weather starts, to
turn a tarp to block the wind and shelter you
from the elements if there's just a squall that comes
through something. So it's just like a small tarp, super
pacable something else that I always have with me. And
(11:57):
when we transition into those later months, like yip, I
was gonna say that something that I change, but it's
not really a change because I like to carry an
arrow will net gator in the hotter part of this
season to keep the sun off me. But then I
usually always have a net gator too packed in for
when it gets colder. And man, I feel like it
(12:18):
is one of those pieces of gear that just can
really save my butt because I'll just have it. It's
weighs nothing. It's so small. I mean, it weighs like
the amount of the same amount of like a handkerchief,
and I'll have it tucked way in a pocket. And
if I'm sitting somewhere and it's been a while, I
feel like myself I'm getting cold. Man, I hopefully I remember,
but I put that sucker on and it just seems
(12:39):
like that actual little tighter layer around my neck insulates
all that blood moving, you know, between my body and head,
and uh, just seems to make a world of difference.
So net Gator, let's feel like it's one of those
pieces of gear that super lightweight, doesn't take up a
lot of space. Alright. Next segment is ask the experts.
(13:10):
Matt Derosier's from First Light is here with us to
explain breathable laminates. And that's like that little thin layer
that's inside of your water proof raine jacket and inside
other jackets that basically keeps like the big heavy moisture
from the outside world from coming in. But yeah, it
lets the steam and the you know, sort of sweaty
(13:34):
environment that you've created on the inside to move out
through it. So MAT's gonna help us understand exactly what
those are, how they work, and um, what you should
expect of them. Um when you go and buy a
rain jacket or another jacket that has a breathable laminate
in it. Take it away, Matt, you want to give
(13:55):
a little intro on what you do for first Light. Yeah, So,
like Jordan's said, my name is Matthew Roger's. I'm the
senior category manager of Western Big Game product at first Light. UM,
and essentially the scope of my role is to kind of,
I guess like be the custodian of overseeing the total
business of of what we make and how that and
(14:17):
how those products life cycles track in the market and
ensuring we're addressing the correct needs of the consumer in
the market and building the correct gear. So it kind
of spans responsibilities across the business scope, the creative scope,
the market, the scope of the market, and then working
with our design development teams to ensure that those needs
(14:39):
I see, um, from both consumers in the market, etcetera,
are being met correctly inappropriately. UM. So it's it's kind
of a left brain right brain role. I guess sometimes
you're you're all numbers and sometimes you're creative. And I
find it very fun because every day is a little
bit different. But um, you kind of get to put
your hands on everything in terms of bringing new products
(15:00):
to life. Awesome. Let's just go to like breathable lamb
in it one oh one and just really like not
even looking at it from a first light perspective, but
just sort of, you know, explain when someone's like talking
breathable lambinates are looking at breathable lamb and it's like,
what exactly is that and what does it do? Yeah,
(15:24):
So there's a tremendous amount of science and engineering and
work that goes into these laminates that essentially are hidden
in your garments. Um. They're they're usually sandwich between you know,
the outer layer and the inner layer of a garment. Um.
So you have your lining facing your skin or your
base layer and your outer layering in between. There you
have these very thin, flexible layers of material. And there's
(15:47):
two types. There's usually have either a microporous laminate or
like a monolithic laminate. Microporous is there's teeny teeny holes
in it. That won't let it drop. Their too small
out a microscopic low will for a drop of water
to pass through it, but they're large enough that condensing
moisture vapor from your body like sweat, can pass through
(16:09):
it and escape the garment, So they're they're repelling any
moisture that's getting to them. A droplet of rain, for instance,
can't get through it, but your moisture vapor when you're
sweating as it's condensing, is leaving the garment due to
the tiny holes and those layers, those microporous layers are
usually what's considered a hydrophobic layer. And it's sounds very technical,
(16:31):
but like it's it's a phobic. It's it's like a phobias.
So the layer actually repulses. It's like, for lack of
a better word, scared. It has a phobia of water
and pushes water away from itself. And that's kind of
the really traditional type laminate you'll see in most garments.
You know. That's where like that's kind of like where
you're to use a household name like gortex uses a
(16:53):
traditional microporous laminate that's hydrophobic, and that's kind of like
where you're your o g laminate science starts. Who's condensing
it or how is it actually condensing? Like it's like
the moisture is leaving my body and it's in the
space between me and the jacket. Where does the condensing happen? Oh,
your body heat is gonna is what's condensing as it's drying.
(17:16):
It's it's becoming gaseous within the jacket from the heat
within the jacket, from the heat with your body. So
it's as it's drying, it's returning to a vapor of vapors,
a state of vapor, and that's what can actually be
pushed down. Now that's not to say every droplet of
sweat that's coming out of your body is gonna, you know,
be pushed out of the jacket and returned to a
gas to state. But like that clammy feeling when you're
(17:37):
sweating and it's getting humid in a in a jacket
under high exertion, that's water vapor. That's sweat in a
gas to state, and that's what you want to push
out because it's actually you don't want that vapor to
actually condensed inside the jacket because then you have a
bunch of water droplets forming inside the jacket and getting
you wet a second time. So you want it to
condense itself out of the jacket. Does that make sense?
(18:00):
You're staying like condensed once it's outside of the jacket.
You want it to you want it to leave the
jacket before it's condensed back to a liquid. It's almost
like a greenhouse, you know, like your greenhouse gets humid
and has water vapor in the air because of the
humidity being trapped in there, and what you want the
jacket to do is be releasing as much of that
(18:22):
as possible, you know. I mean most of the time,
what people are looking at breathability ratings, they want the
highest breathability rating of the highest ret rating. That's saying
that when you have that humid gas in the air
inside the jacket, it's getting pushed out of the jacket
before it becomes liquid again and absorbs into your insulation
or your base layer, et ceteras. You really want it
(18:43):
out of the jacket before it becomes water again. Okay.
And like the simplest form, it's literally like a very
when you say very thin layer, like how thin is it? Like?
Is it even like if you if you're just holding
up a piece of a breathe able laminate, Like, can
I see through it? Is it that thin? Usually not,
(19:04):
you can't see through it. It's usually like a you know,
they're usually like grays and silver's um. If it was
if it was like more of a a knit, you'd
probably see through it, but then it would let a
lot of water through it. But I mean to actually
hold one a layer of that laminate, they're so thin,
it's like it's like cellophane thin. It's you'd almost be like,
I can't believe this stops water. They're so ultra thin um.
(19:29):
And it's really just the chemistry that goes into them
and how they react with you know, when they come
into contact with both varying states of liquid that makes
them waterproof and allows them to breathe at the same time.
It's it's really incredible if you think about it, it's
something so thin does that. And and that's I think
that's another good point, you honest, is that's why it's
(19:49):
so imperative to have like a good lining in a
jacket and protect those laminates, because once they become contaminated
or take over exposure that you know, they start to fail.
So having like a lining in a jacket is imperative
that keeps the oils from your skin out of it.
It keeps dirt, it keeps blood when you process an animal.
It keeps all those like external factors from getting into
(20:10):
the laminate and very quickly ruining it. And that's kind
of where you see the separation in terms of quality
of gears. It's like, well, this is constructed in a
in a sense that after a season or after a
hard hunt, it's not going to fall apart. It's going
to the lambin. It's not going to be flaking off
or coming apart. It's protected and you're gonna get years
of use out of this versus a cheaper jacket where
(20:32):
that laminate gets contaminated quickly and it's it's a one
season type deal. Okay, you were saying there's another kind
of laminate though, that this one that you explained. It's
like gortex is a you called it microporous, yep. And
then what's the other kind. So there's monolithic laminates, which
you know, I guess kind of subject to the word
(20:54):
a monolith is a is a singular, never interrupted sheet.
So you'll have these don't have holes in them. It's
almost literally like similar. I guess to just create a
like a layman's term to understand it. It's almost just
like a sheet of cellophane. It doesn't look like cellophane,
it doesn't act like cellophane. But there's no holes. It's
(21:14):
it's an uninterrupted continuous sheet of laminate that can be
laminated in a bi component way, which you can have
a microporous and a monolithic stack together. Um, those don't
have holes. What those do usually when you see a
monolithic laminate is there what's called hydrophilic. Now, remember the
(21:34):
microporous was hydrophobic and pushed it away. Hydrophilic is actually
going to attract moisture that it finds into itself and
then work to overtime condense it out of itself. So
having a monolithic layer, it can attract both sweat in
a garment or water that's made it through let's say
(21:54):
a microporous layer or through a seam. It can attract
that into itself and trap it and then over time
work to push it out of the jacket again and
condense it out of the rain layer. So that's where
you kind of see like bi component laminates, you get
a microporous and a monolithic layer, one hydrophobic, one hydrophilic,
but they're working in tandem together two stop any precipitation
(22:17):
from actually making it to you internally while also moving
your sweat that those condensed vapors out of the jacket
to keep you comfortable and dry internally. Okay, Jordan, any
questions on breathable laminates. I think the only thing I
had was you talked about like a rating system. Is
that something that like the consumer sees that in some
(22:40):
marketing with some garments of like, hey it's X breathability.
Can you talk about that a little bit? Yeah, I
mean a lot of times you'll see UM, historically you've
seen m v TR rates, which is moisture vapor transfer rates. UM.
You see those in a lot of places, and that
actually comes from that actually comes from other industry, is
outside of textile industries, which I mean you can get
(23:03):
into a whole theoretical discussion about that, UM, but those
are essentially looking at how many grahams squared of moisture
vapor over a twenty four hour period can be pushed
out of the jacket, so in a gaseous state, which
if you think about it, is like in a twenty
four hour period doesn't really help you at the moment
in a hunt. It might be relevant to and over
(23:24):
to drawing overnight, but I mean, I I work with
this stuff, and I don't you know, to look at
how much area a gash a gasso is uh condensed
liquid spreads over the inside of a jacket and moves
at how many millimeters over twenty four hours, that's a
lot of work to figure out of how breathable this
jacket is. UM. What we've looked at is actually called
(23:47):
r E T testing a rhet a rent level, and
that's kind of a more direct test that was developed
to look at under exertion. UM. It's actually people like
on a treadmill at certain ten picture ranges, what is
the comfort level and what is and that's based on
looking at like what the temperature level is, how long
it takes to sweat. There's very there's a bunch of
(24:09):
factors that go into that lab testing, but it's actually
a direct um reciprocation of how comfortable you would remain
at what levels of activity in those garments. So it's like, okay,
we're trying to build a tank of a system right
now where you know, let's say you're you're in Prince
of Wales Island and it's thirty four degrees thirty five
(24:29):
degrees and dumping rain. So the priorities for this to
be absolutely shut down to water passing through it, and
you're already in cold tempts. But then you might say, hey,
the r T test on a new lighter weight, packable
rain system where you might be in the inner mountain
rockies and you're in a rainstorm, but you're still expending
(24:50):
a lot of energy. It's still let's say fifty five degrees,
it's forty five degrees, it's warmer. How long do you
stay comfortable in that system and that type of climate
versus is a system at thirty eight degrees that you're
not moving in. So it's more of a I think
the REET testing is something that's that's more applicable when
we look at these because it gives you a more
real world benchmark of how the user is gonna feel
(25:13):
and how it's going to perform as compared to just
you know, a a volumetric measurement over twenty four hours
of a gas moving through a textile got it. So
how do you get a jacket tested for rent. We
work I mean we work with you know our mills
UM that then have we have like third party testing.
(25:33):
It's really cool. UM they have literally like weather chambers
UM which we do all the different testing on. And
then they have like mannequins who are in the simulated
situations and they have sensors tracking that, and then they'll
it'll even go to a point where we'll have people
going the weather chambers and where the garments through like
her simulated hurricane conditions, light rain conditions, and will you know,
(25:56):
look at what came out of the testing on paper,
and then look at you know, the photos and videos
of how the guy comes out of the chamber or
the cal whoever's wearing it, and like, oh, well he's
you know, And that can also be beneficial as you
might be like, hey, this thing's this textile superwaterproof, but
he just came out of the chamber and hey the
hood opening is too big because the top of his
(26:18):
his T shirt is soaking wet. So you know, it
helps in a lot of ways to identify not only
of just like those benchmark rhet testing and m b
TR and waterproof rating stuff like that, it also measures
it also kind of helps you see where there could
be inherent design flaws in places for improvement. It helps
you look at durability so that we use labs um
(26:43):
kind of all over the world to do that, depending
on how and where we're producing this, and um, it's
actually very interesting to look at dang. Yeah, well, should
we get into uh, the like why there's four and
a half layers in the OMEN? Then Jordan's yeah, I
think so. Yeah, So to bring it full circle, so
(27:03):
the OMEN is four and a half layers, and that's
I think. I mean, I think that number can be
a little misleading at times because you hear four and
a half layers and you're like, oh, oh god, um,
but not all those layers are actually layers. So on
the on the furthest outer layer, you obviously have your
face fabric that you see that's where your cameras printed
(27:23):
or your your color way. Like what's facing the rain.
Let's say, um, that is a full polyester plane weave.
And that's while that sounds just kind of not exciting,
the important thing there is the plane we've reduces geometry
or structure on the face of that fabric. Because you
(27:43):
also have your d W R, which I'll speak to
in a second. But d w R will always inevitably
reach a point of saturation and start to fail. And
that's why you need That's why you need the laminates
and the membranes in the jacket, the waterproof breathables. But
that plane we've being so flat and plainly woven, there's
a structure, there's no geometry like you know, there's no
ridges like in your genes, let's say, because once that
(28:06):
dw ARE fails, the isotopes get crushed and start allowing
water through. Any geometry is gonna absorb water and make
it easier for water to start getting in the face.
So having that plane weave is critical, and it also
reduces any opportunity for snags and tears. You know, it's
it's it's easier for a BlackBerry sticker to brush off
a plane weave than something that has structure to it
(28:29):
that a thorn can grab into. So it also protects
the jacket um. And then we also used C zero chemistry,
which is a non polyfluorinated dwr UM. That's a big word,
but I think people, I mean, we've seen in response
to it, a lot of people ask questions about polyfluorinated.
So I think I think the outdoor community is very
(28:49):
aware of how bad polyfluorinated dw rs and chemicals are. Um.
They basically get on you, they get an environment. Um.
And if they're they're not good, they're they're horrible stuff.
So um, Europe's already outlawed it. So I think, just
in a responsible fashion, both for the environment and for ourselves,
and just in staying compliant with different governments in different worlds,
(29:11):
polyfluorinateds are going. UM. So we used to see zero
d w R, which performed actually better than past polyfluorinated
dwrs in our testing that we spoke to. UM. But
and it's not nearly it's not as nasty of a
chemistry to be coding. So it performed better and it
was greener, is the simplest way I can say it
(29:33):
does the dw R account as one of the layers. No, sorry,
we count that as part of the face layer. When
we say four and a half it, um, so that's
your first layer, that's your face. And I mean I
said a lot there, but that's all I think extremely
relevant to how the garment actually works. Yeah, it mean
it sounds to me like if you if you looked
at it under a microscope, that first layer we'll just
(29:54):
look very smooth and instead of bumpy, which you know,
if you pour the water on a smooth surface, it's
going to roll off easier than if you put it
on a bumpy surface, right, I mean hit it on
the head. That's like exactly. So that's your first layer.
Your second layer is a microporous polyurethane lambing it like
(30:14):
I spoke to. Your third layer is a monolithic polyurethane
layer like I had spoken to. And then we have
a half layer that is actually screen printed onto that
monolithic layer. And what it is is we always talk
about thirty seven five active particles here at First Light,
and we've actually put those particles it's an active carbon
(30:38):
particle into a screen print and printed it and you
can see it in like a pattern. When you look
inside the omen jacket underneath the lining fabric, you can
still see this repeating pattern. And that's that. And what
those active carbon molecules are doing are attracting. They're helping
to attract that water vapor, that condensed water vapor as
(30:59):
you're sweating into themselves and into that monolithic layer and
they're heating up and they're attracting your infrared heat. So
as they heat up and attract that water, that condensation,
they continue pushing it and keeping it as a vapor
because they're moving so fast with your infrared heat and
pushing that sweat and humidity inside the garment into the
laminates and then out of the jacket. So that's kind
(31:21):
of where we've had feedback that you know, OMEN doesn't
get clammy, it doesn't get that humid feeling, and that's
because the thirty seven five, those carbon molecules are working
to keep moving that condensation actively out of the jacket
with the laminate. And then after the that the jackets
finished with a lining um which is just black on
(31:41):
the OMEN and it doesn't Again, it's kind of like
the face fabric. You wouldn't really think it's something real
sexy to talk about. But back to what I said before,
is having that lining there is keeping the oils and
the dirt, blood, anything else in the environment and from
your body from contamin aiding those laminates and ultimately giving
(32:02):
you a garment that doesn't fail and start leaking after
a season or two season. It's giving you a garment
that can resist contamination and actively let the laminates continue
to do their job for year after year. And that's
the four and a half layers. So you have face
fabric one, two laminates, a half layer of the third
(32:22):
we consider we say the thirty seven five screen prints
a half layer. I mean, if you really chopped it
up in all terms of layers, it's like a point
one percent of a layer, but we just kind of
call it out that way. And then you're that final layer.
Is that lining protecting the laminates. Yeah, it does sound
like a lot of layers because I think most of us,
I mean that remember usually it was like a three
(32:44):
layer rain jacket is kind of most common, right, ye yep,
And that's that's usually you know, face fabric, a microporous layer,
and then a lining layer. So they're they're they're losing
that by component, they're losing that second monolithic layer are there,
and they're not having that half layer thirty seven five
we use. And I mean the intention of OMEN was
(33:06):
always to build like, you know, a severe weather storm
shelter and kind of lead the charge as a new
era of inclement weather gear follow weather gear for first light.
So that's kind of just been like, hey, let's let's
build this for the absolute worst of the worst, Like
I said, like thirty five on Prince of Wales and
in raining all day while you're glassing. That was that
was the intention, and also an environment I guess Prince
(33:28):
of Whale is still a good example where you can't
rip the thing. You know, you got flown in, you
have flown in on a super cub and you have
one set of gear. You don't want to go radio
out there. Hey we've got to leave because I slash
my jacket on a you know, the hunts over because
I don't have a rain layer anymore. It's I kind
of wanted to be something that's just out of your
mind and not a concern, and that was that was
the point of omen for me, and that's why we
(33:50):
ended up with a four and a half layer. Yeah,
I've personally been purposefully, personally, purposefully been busting brush in
that jacket, just trying to put some holes in it,
and uh, yet to succeeds. So if it's one thing,
it's tough really well, I know, I mean we've we've
(34:11):
talked in depth about this for a long time, so
it's good to hear that it's not busting open on you. Yep.
I haven't done a full season and yet, but soon
enough I'll be able to report back to you about that.
What about you, Jordan, I used it? Yeah, you had
it up in Alaska on your sheep hunt quite a bit. Yeah,
I had it in Alaska on the sheep hunt. And
then when we got back, he took it to Wyoming
on a sheep hunt and you know, on and offul
(34:33):
horse on that hunt, and courses are hard on things,
and it was it seemed to be. It was fine.
And then later later season when it snowed, I was
wearing the pants to keep my regular pants dry. And
I mean really no complaints on it. I really like it. Awesome, awesome, Hey,
real quick, I was gonna ask what, uh it's I was.
(34:55):
You know, I'm always hoping that we can sort of
educate the uh you know, the listener is to be
like a better consumer. So if they're out shopping jackets
that have breathable laminates in there, what's like a takeaway
that you can give them? They're like, yeah, next time
(35:16):
you're out looking at it, you know, some outerwear and
you're thinking about breathable laminates and what they're gonna do
for you. It's like a simple way that they can
apply what they learned today to what they might buy.
That's a great question, UM. And you know, each each
company in our industry speaks to ratings differently. UM builds
(35:39):
different systems for different purposes. I mean some some companies
only gonna build one set of rain gear for all.
Some are gonna do kind of what we're doing and say, hey,
we have like a the worst possible case scenario system,
we have an intermediate system, and we have like maybe
once a year in archery season, you pull this jacket
out for fifteen minutes. I guess I think owing and
(36:00):
being realistic with what you really expect to encounter and
what you expect to do is to me the benchmark
of where to start shopping. I guess. I mean the
ratings just aren't published like one through ten. It's not
like you have a one rating and a ten rating.
It's it's a lot different and a lot of companies
withhold that. I mean a lot of mills and labs
and stuff who build these laminates they do withhold it.
(36:23):
It's not published information for a lot of reasons. You know,
they're protecting proprietary information. They're protecting intellectual property. And I
think sometimes ratings can be misleading because I guess here
this might answer be honest this previous questions, Like people
can get so hung up on a rating and a
number um that they failed to buy what conditions they
(36:43):
actually needed for So they're so hung up on saying, hey,
this has a this has a twenty five thousand breatheability. Well,
all it takes to be better is a thousand and
one breatheability. Now, technically that's better, But is that true
that that garments better? Um? I don't think so. So
I think ray things published can be a little misleading,
and most people aren't trained to really understand what the
(37:05):
ratings mean or even know how those tests are actually done. UM.
Testing can be manipulated in labs, and we all know.
I mean, I think Greg said it in one of
the original white Tail videos is he's never killed a
buck in a lab before. You know, like, just because
something does very well in a laboratory, it's a great start,
But then really understanding the field conditions and how that's
(37:28):
going to perform for you in the field is more important.
So I think I think ratings are a great thing
to be taken into account, but that's not the end all,
be all, always of how something is gonna work for you.
Thanks Matt, Yeah, absolutely, thank you. All right, well, um,
(37:53):
you have to sign off for both of us. I
hate doing alectros. I'm gonna put it on you. Okay,
we are going to sign off and let's see everybody
on the next episode. Bye to the house, Steve, does it?
See everybody? M
All right, welcome to an episode of gear Talk where
Jordan Bud and I be honest but tell us we're
gonna talk all things gear. We just started this. We're
both super excited about it. Um. We love talking gear
and we want to help you understand and know and
(00:34):
just feel more comfortable, uh talking about gear, Understanding gear,
making good good gear, buying decisions when you're out there.
It's a big world of hunting gear these days, and
uh hopefully this podcastle um help you make some of
those decisions and get you out there in the right gear.
But my I just want to give a little bit
(00:54):
on myself. We're gonna do a little host intro bio today.
I spent twelve years as a hunting and fishing guide,
mostly down in Colorado, a little bit, uh little, did
a little bit of guiding in Old Mexico, but mostly Colorado.
Also did four years at the same time, I did
four years in retail, which was good. Um. I didn't
(01:18):
necessarily always like uh folding T shirts and sweaters, but
I did get to sit through a lot of pre
technical gear what do they call that, phil when like
a rep comes to the store, and then clinic gear
clinic training. Yeah. Um, and just I enjoyed that part
(01:39):
about about selling retail. You know, it's cool to learn
all about the new, latest and greatest and stuff, and
it just it opened up my sort of my experience
with all the gear that's out there by just being
able to work with, you know, all different types of
brands and products in the store, which was Starmaking Sports
and Edwards Colorado. If you ever down in that neck
(02:01):
of the woods, which is Eagle County, Colorado, go check
it out. It's a cool store. And then I've also
done ten years in outdoor TV production as many of
you know, producing Meat Eater television and uh doing Me
Eat podcast with Steve and now doing my own show
(02:21):
on the Hunt with the Honest Pitelis, which is available
on the Meat eat or YouTube channel. So, yeah, short
little bio on me Jordan's let me hear, let me
hear what your last twenty years have been all about? Yeah.
So started, uh originally from northwest Nebraska on a family ranch.
(02:42):
Was where I grew up and went high school and
all that stuff. Um, So I started guiding there and
that's really how I started, I mean just getting into
hunting stuff. I started guiding and then I really like
cameras also when I was in high school and college,
so picked up camera started filming just uh, you know,
(03:03):
meeting people and making contacts. One thing led to the other,
and I started filming for an outdoor television show and
that took me all over the place. And that's really
we're like the Western hunting bug I think came from.
I mean, I always wanted to go out west before
and do my own hunts. But then when I started filming, um,
you know, that obviously opened my eyes to a lot
(03:25):
of things. And I got a lot of experiences in
a lot of different places, on a lot of different hunts.
And that's I was able to try a ton of gear,
you know, doing that, a bunch of different gear and
a bunch of different situations and environments. And I just
I'm kind of a gear junkie anyways. And I don't
know really why other than I just like knowing what
(03:46):
I take and more so the why behind why you're
taking it. And uh, that's one of the reasons I'm
super excited for this podcast is to you know, bring
all that so consumers can make a more educated purchase,
you know, going on some of these extreme hunts that
you only get to go once in a lifetime. On. Yeah,
that's a a good point about like being a gear junkie,
(04:10):
and and then it kind of transitions right into how
much money you spend on gear. I felt like there
was years for sure where I was guiding Elk Counts
and I was spending as much money on the gear
to to go and guide as I was probably making
throughout the whole season, just because I was so into it,
you know, trying different foots or backpacks or whatever. And uh,
(04:34):
I've never been known to be like a great real
frugal you know, with the with the cash, but uh,
I guess that's what's hopefully helped me in to give
me some experience so I can do this job better. Now, Um,
I wanna you didn't really hit on it too hard,
but I want to ask you a question you've been on?
How many sheep punts have you been on? Not for
(04:55):
your personal self but just all total? How many sheep
punts I'm pretty sure are I think it's sixteen now, oh,
with this last Wyoming hunt that I filmed last year,
and how many of those have been in Alaska? There
have been one in Alaska and that was mine. Okay,
so that was your first time up there. Sheep hunt
was when you went. Yeah. Everything else was desert big
(05:18):
horns in Mexico. Uh, I've done three, three or four
of those, and then um in Wyoming a bunch of
big horn sheep punts was most of it. Um one
stones in the Yukon, and then my dollar sheep in Alaska,
so only only one in Alaska. What was the first
(05:43):
thing we wanted to hit on Jordan's I pulled a
listener question out um talking about what's a key item
that you change in your pack from early to the
mid season. So that would just be in my mind
considerations of the weather changing more so probably than anything,
start getting snowstorms in that like late September, early October
(06:06):
and then on through October, I suppose. Um, So yeah,
I mean, I think one of the bigger things for
me is that temperature dropping and wanting to add in
my own compadre puffy pants into the mix to make
the early mornings of glassing and later evenings a little
more comfortable. Yeah. Man, I love those pants, and a
(06:27):
lot of times with those pants I've come to not
packing even on the back country hunt, not packing long
underwear and just doing regular pants and the uncompagre of
puffy pants because I know that we have zip off
Long John's now, but it's even easier, I think, to
zip off those uncompagres, and those things are so much
(06:47):
warmer and so much thicker, and um, like you said,
kind of seems like something you're gonna wear first thing
and then last thing in the day, and so it's
really easy to zip them off, cram them into the
bio of the pack, and not really pull them back
out until later. So I like them. Although it might
be a little bit heavier than going Long John's, like,
it's definitely way way warmer. But yeah, that's a nice
(07:11):
piece of gear. Um I was gonna go with. I mean,
obviously closed in general, you're just gonna be packing a
little bit more because you're gonna have to just have
more installation, you know, to stay warm. But I would
say that one of my main like items of gear,
and it's kind of a two part thing, but it's
like shelter and then like the sleeping system because early
(07:33):
season I'm always just trying to like push it and
go as light as possible with the lightest sleeping bag
and the lightest shelter as possible, because you know, even
if you get a little wet or if something crappy
happens in early September, it's usually just not gonna last,
you know, and it's not gonna be enough to drive
me out of the mountains. But like if that happens
(07:54):
in October and you get kind of miserable, boy, it
is very easy for that to push and back back
to the trailhead. So um, I'm gonna go to definitely
a zero degree bag. Like I like to sleep warm
and like to be super comfy, and so if it
gets into October at all, I'm going zero degree bag
(08:16):
even late September sometimes, and I'm happily going to carry
that extra little bit of weight. And then there's gonna
be no more tarp shelters or like just like the
super lightweight stuff, I want a more robust shelter that
I can really count on to stand up to the wind.
I'm gonna make sure that I got all my guidelines
(08:37):
set up. I got plenty of steaks, you know, to
handle a wind event or handle like a heavy snow event.
And then if I know or if I think it's
gonna be on the colder side, Like I'll pack a
floorless shelter like a again depending on how many people
are gonna be in it, but like a seek outside
Simmarron or Red Cliff, that I can have a stove
(08:59):
in and burn wood and be super comfy. Like I
know a d for a fact that I've been in
a ton of just really good hunting conditions really because
you like it when it's cold and it's snowing and stuff.
It just keeps the animals on their feet more. But
if you can't stay comfortable in those conditions, you know
(09:20):
you're not going to be out there. But having that
shelter that you can come back to in the evenings
light of fire, warm up, dry out, some gear, sleep
super comfy and toasty, it keeps you out there and
thus hopefully makes you more successful. Yeah, huge mental boost
being able to to come back after a long day
(09:41):
and uh let the fire. It really changes your attitude
or it can um and make you a little more
excited about having to uh you know, get up early
the next day and go out and do it again.
So that's one thing on my list as well, is uh,
start thinking about when you you know you get snowstorms,
especially that early October time frame. Seems like those snowstorms,
(10:05):
just like late September, really wet and sloshy. They might
melt pretty quick, but also means they're pretty wet and
um being able to go light a stove and dry
all your stuff out again, it's just gonna let you
be more comfortable and stay out there longer. So that's
something certainly on my list. Oh yeah, it's a dent.
The difference between miserable and like very content and happy. Yeah, yeah,
(10:30):
it makes it makes a huge difference. A simple thing
called fire. Yeah, that's another thing that's definitely got to
be considered later too. I mean other things to go
right along with that, like fire starters one you've got
to be thinking about. I think a little bit more,
especially for the safety side of things. If you get
in a situation, you have to start one. So I
(10:52):
really like that pyro putty. Have you used that? I
haven't used actual pyro putty. I have something similar that's
called like a as a bit cube, which is actually
used for they make a whole there's a whole like
cooking system, stove system that uses these little cubes um,
but it's basically like a small little cube. I don't
(11:12):
know how much it weighs. It might be like the
size of my thumb weighs the same as my thumb,
but it'll it burns for ten minutes, one little cube.
So yeah, it's it's should give you ample time to
you know, add on your kindling and whatever and get
yourself a ripper going yeah, yeah, I think a good
fire starter is good, like very flammable to give you
(11:35):
a good base to start with. And then I mean
I usually take a tarp with me all the time anyways,
but I would say, especially when the weather starts, to
turn a tarp to block the wind and shelter you
from the elements if there's just a squall that comes
through something. So it's just like a small tarp, super
pacable something else that I always have with me. And
(11:57):
when we transition into those later months, like yip, I
was gonna say that something that I change, but it's
not really a change because I like to carry an
arrow will net gator in the hotter part of this
season to keep the sun off me. But then I
usually always have a net gator too packed in for
when it gets colder. And man, I feel like it
(12:18):
is one of those pieces of gear that just can
really save my butt because I'll just have it. It's
weighs nothing. It's so small. I mean, it weighs like
the amount of the same amount of like a handkerchief,
and I'll have it tucked way in a pocket. And
if I'm sitting somewhere and it's been a while, I
feel like myself I'm getting cold. Man, I hopefully I remember,
but I put that sucker on and it just seems
(12:39):
like that actual little tighter layer around my neck insulates
all that blood moving, you know, between my body and head,
and uh, just seems to make a world of difference.
So net Gator, let's feel like it's one of those
pieces of gear that super lightweight, doesn't take up a
lot of space. Alright. Next segment is ask the experts.
(13:10):
Matt Derosier's from First Light is here with us to
explain breathable laminates. And that's like that little thin layer
that's inside of your water proof raine jacket and inside
other jackets that basically keeps like the big heavy moisture
from the outside world from coming in. But yeah, it
lets the steam and the you know, sort of sweaty
(13:34):
environment that you've created on the inside to move out
through it. So MAT's gonna help us understand exactly what
those are, how they work, and um, what you should
expect of them. Um when you go and buy a
rain jacket or another jacket that has a breathable laminate
in it. Take it away, Matt, you want to give
(13:55):
a little intro on what you do for first Light. Yeah, So,
like Jordan's said, my name is Matthew Roger's. I'm the
senior category manager of Western Big Game product at first Light. UM,
and essentially the scope of my role is to kind of,
I guess like be the custodian of overseeing the total
business of of what we make and how that and
(14:17):
how those products life cycles track in the market and
ensuring we're addressing the correct needs of the consumer in
the market and building the correct gear. So it kind
of spans responsibilities across the business scope, the creative scope,
the market, the scope of the market, and then working
with our design development teams to ensure that those needs
(14:39):
I see, um, from both consumers in the market, etcetera,
are being met correctly inappropriately. UM. So it's it's kind
of a left brain right brain role. I guess sometimes
you're you're all numbers and sometimes you're creative. And I
find it very fun because every day is a little
bit different. But um, you kind of get to put
your hands on everything in terms of bringing new products
(15:00):
to life. Awesome. Let's just go to like breathable lamb
in it one oh one and just really like not
even looking at it from a first light perspective, but
just sort of, you know, explain when someone's like talking
breathable lambinates are looking at breathable lamb and it's like,
what exactly is that and what does it do? Yeah,
(15:24):
So there's a tremendous amount of science and engineering and
work that goes into these laminates that essentially are hidden
in your garments. Um. They're they're usually sandwich between you know,
the outer layer and the inner layer of a garment. Um.
So you have your lining facing your skin or your
base layer and your outer layering in between. There you
have these very thin, flexible layers of material. And there's
(15:47):
two types. There's usually have either a microporous laminate or
like a monolithic laminate. Microporous is there's teeny teeny holes
in it. That won't let it drop. Their too small
out a microscopic low will for a drop of water
to pass through it, but they're large enough that condensing
moisture vapor from your body like sweat, can pass through
(16:09):
it and escape the garment, So they're they're repelling any
moisture that's getting to them. A droplet of rain, for instance,
can't get through it, but your moisture vapor when you're
sweating as it's condensing, is leaving the garment due to
the tiny holes and those layers, those microporous layers are
usually what's considered a hydrophobic layer. And it's sounds very technical,
(16:31):
but like it's it's a phobic. It's it's like a phobias.
So the layer actually repulses. It's like, for lack of
a better word, scared. It has a phobia of water
and pushes water away from itself. And that's kind of
the really traditional type laminate you'll see in most garments.
You know. That's where like that's kind of like where
you're to use a household name like gortex uses a
(16:53):
traditional microporous laminate that's hydrophobic, and that's kind of like
where you're your o g laminate science starts. Who's condensing
it or how is it actually condensing? Like it's like
the moisture is leaving my body and it's in the
space between me and the jacket. Where does the condensing happen? Oh,
your body heat is gonna is what's condensing as it's drying.
(17:16):
It's it's becoming gaseous within the jacket from the heat
within the jacket, from the heat with your body. So
it's as it's drying, it's returning to a vapor of vapors,
a state of vapor, and that's what can actually be
pushed down. Now that's not to say every droplet of
sweat that's coming out of your body is gonna, you know,
be pushed out of the jacket and returned to a
gas to state. But like that clammy feeling when you're
(17:37):
sweating and it's getting humid in a in a jacket
under high exertion, that's water vapor. That's sweat in a
gas to state, and that's what you want to push
out because it's actually you don't want that vapor to
actually condensed inside the jacket because then you have a
bunch of water droplets forming inside the jacket and getting
you wet a second time. So you want it to
condense itself out of the jacket. Does that make sense?
(18:00):
You're staying like condensed once it's outside of the jacket.
You want it to you want it to leave the
jacket before it's condensed back to a liquid. It's almost
like a greenhouse, you know, like your greenhouse gets humid
and has water vapor in the air because of the
humidity being trapped in there, and what you want the
jacket to do is be releasing as much of that
(18:22):
as possible, you know. I mean most of the time,
what people are looking at breathability ratings, they want the
highest breathability rating of the highest ret rating. That's saying
that when you have that humid gas in the air
inside the jacket, it's getting pushed out of the jacket
before it becomes liquid again and absorbs into your insulation
or your base layer, et ceteras. You really want it
(18:43):
out of the jacket before it becomes water again. Okay.
And like the simplest form, it's literally like a very
when you say very thin layer, like how thin is it? Like?
Is it even like if you if you're just holding
up a piece of a breathe able laminate, Like, can
I see through it? Is it that thin? Usually not,
(19:04):
you can't see through it. It's usually like a you know,
they're usually like grays and silver's um. If it was
if it was like more of a a knit, you'd
probably see through it, but then it would let a
lot of water through it. But I mean to actually
hold one a layer of that laminate, they're so thin,
it's like it's like cellophane thin. It's you'd almost be like,
I can't believe this stops water. They're so ultra thin um.
(19:29):
And it's really just the chemistry that goes into them
and how they react with you know, when they come
into contact with both varying states of liquid that makes
them waterproof and allows them to breathe at the same time.
It's it's really incredible if you think about it, it's
something so thin does that. And and that's I think
that's another good point, you honest, is that's why it's
(19:49):
so imperative to have like a good lining in a
jacket and protect those laminates, because once they become contaminated
or take over exposure that you know, they start to fail.
So having like a lining in a jacket is imperative
that keeps the oils from your skin out of it.
It keeps dirt, it keeps blood when you process an animal.
It keeps all those like external factors from getting into
(20:10):
the laminate and very quickly ruining it. And that's kind
of where you see the separation in terms of quality
of gears. It's like, well, this is constructed in a
in a sense that after a season or after a
hard hunt, it's not going to fall apart. It's going
to the lambin. It's not going to be flaking off
or coming apart. It's protected and you're gonna get years
of use out of this versus a cheaper jacket where
(20:32):
that laminate gets contaminated quickly and it's it's a one
season type deal. Okay, you were saying there's another kind
of laminate though, that this one that you explained. It's
like gortex is a you called it microporous, yep. And
then what's the other kind. So there's monolithic laminates, which
you know, I guess kind of subject to the word
(20:54):
a monolith is a is a singular, never interrupted sheet.
So you'll have these don't have holes in them. It's
almost literally like similar. I guess to just create a
like a layman's term to understand it. It's almost just
like a sheet of cellophane. It doesn't look like cellophane,
it doesn't act like cellophane. But there's no holes. It's
(21:14):
it's an uninterrupted continuous sheet of laminate that can be
laminated in a bi component way, which you can have
a microporous and a monolithic stack together. Um, those don't
have holes. What those do usually when you see a
monolithic laminate is there what's called hydrophilic. Now, remember the
(21:34):
microporous was hydrophobic and pushed it away. Hydrophilic is actually
going to attract moisture that it finds into itself and
then work to overtime condense it out of itself. So
having a monolithic layer, it can attract both sweat in
a garment or water that's made it through let's say
(21:54):
a microporous layer or through a seam. It can attract
that into itself and trap it and then over time
work to push it out of the jacket again and
condense it out of the rain layer. So that's where
you kind of see like bi component laminates, you get
a microporous and a monolithic layer, one hydrophobic, one hydrophilic,
but they're working in tandem together two stop any precipitation
(22:17):
from actually making it to you internally while also moving
your sweat that those condensed vapors out of the jacket
to keep you comfortable and dry internally. Okay, Jordan, any
questions on breathable laminates. I think the only thing I
had was you talked about like a rating system. Is
that something that like the consumer sees that in some
(22:40):
marketing with some garments of like, hey it's X breathability.
Can you talk about that a little bit? Yeah, I
mean a lot of times you'll see UM, historically you've
seen m v TR rates, which is moisture vapor transfer rates. UM.
You see those in a lot of places, and that
actually comes from that actually comes from other industry, is
outside of textile industries, which I mean you can get
(23:03):
into a whole theoretical discussion about that, UM, but those
are essentially looking at how many grahams squared of moisture
vapor over a twenty four hour period can be pushed
out of the jacket, so in a gaseous state, which
if you think about it, is like in a twenty
four hour period doesn't really help you at the moment
in a hunt. It might be relevant to and over
(23:24):
to drawing overnight, but I mean, I I work with
this stuff, and I don't you know, to look at
how much area a gash a gasso is uh condensed
liquid spreads over the inside of a jacket and moves
at how many millimeters over twenty four hours, that's a
lot of work to figure out of how breathable this
jacket is. UM. What we've looked at is actually called
(23:47):
r E T testing a rhet a rent level, and
that's kind of a more direct test that was developed
to look at under exertion. UM. It's actually people like
on a treadmill at certain ten picture ranges, what is
the comfort level and what is and that's based on
looking at like what the temperature level is, how long
it takes to sweat. There's very there's a bunch of
(24:09):
factors that go into that lab testing, but it's actually
a direct um reciprocation of how comfortable you would remain
at what levels of activity in those garments. So it's like, okay,
we're trying to build a tank of a system right
now where you know, let's say you're you're in Prince
of Wales Island and it's thirty four degrees thirty five
(24:29):
degrees and dumping rain. So the priorities for this to
be absolutely shut down to water passing through it, and
you're already in cold tempts. But then you might say, hey,
the r T test on a new lighter weight, packable
rain system where you might be in the inner mountain
rockies and you're in a rainstorm, but you're still expending
(24:50):
a lot of energy. It's still let's say fifty five degrees,
it's forty five degrees, it's warmer. How long do you
stay comfortable in that system and that type of climate
versus is a system at thirty eight degrees that you're
not moving in. So it's more of a I think
the REET testing is something that's that's more applicable when
we look at these because it gives you a more
real world benchmark of how the user is gonna feel
(25:13):
and how it's going to perform as compared to just
you know, a a volumetric measurement over twenty four hours
of a gas moving through a textile got it. So
how do you get a jacket tested for rent. We
work I mean we work with you know our mills
UM that then have we have like third party testing.
(25:33):
It's really cool. UM they have literally like weather chambers
UM which we do all the different testing on. And
then they have like mannequins who are in the simulated
situations and they have sensors tracking that, and then they'll
it'll even go to a point where we'll have people
going the weather chambers and where the garments through like
her simulated hurricane conditions, light rain conditions, and will you know,
(25:56):
look at what came out of the testing on paper,
and then look at you know, the photos and videos
of how the guy comes out of the chamber or
the cal whoever's wearing it, and like, oh, well he's
you know, And that can also be beneficial as you
might be like, hey, this thing's this textile superwaterproof, but
he just came out of the chamber and hey the
hood opening is too big because the top of his
(26:18):
his T shirt is soaking wet. So you know, it
helps in a lot of ways to identify not only
of just like those benchmark rhet testing and m b
TR and waterproof rating stuff like that, it also measures
it also kind of helps you see where there could
be inherent design flaws in places for improvement. It helps
you look at durability so that we use labs um
(26:43):
kind of all over the world to do that, depending
on how and where we're producing this, and um, it's
actually very interesting to look at dang. Yeah, well, should
we get into uh, the like why there's four and
a half layers in the OMEN? Then Jordan's yeah, I
think so. Yeah, So to bring it full circle, so
(27:03):
the OMEN is four and a half layers, and that's
I think. I mean, I think that number can be
a little misleading at times because you hear four and
a half layers and you're like, oh, oh god, um,
but not all those layers are actually layers. So on
the on the furthest outer layer, you obviously have your
face fabric that you see that's where your cameras printed
(27:23):
or your your color way. Like what's facing the rain.
Let's say, um, that is a full polyester plane weave.
And that's while that sounds just kind of not exciting,
the important thing there is the plane we've reduces geometry
or structure on the face of that fabric. Because you
(27:43):
also have your d W R, which I'll speak to
in a second. But d w R will always inevitably
reach a point of saturation and start to fail. And
that's why you need That's why you need the laminates
and the membranes in the jacket, the waterproof breathables. But
that plane we've being so flat and plainly woven, there's
a structure, there's no geometry like you know, there's no
ridges like in your genes, let's say, because once that
(28:06):
dw ARE fails, the isotopes get crushed and start allowing
water through. Any geometry is gonna absorb water and make
it easier for water to start getting in the face.
So having that plane weave is critical, and it also
reduces any opportunity for snags and tears. You know, it's
it's it's easier for a BlackBerry sticker to brush off
a plane weave than something that has structure to it
(28:29):
that a thorn can grab into. So it also protects
the jacket um. And then we also used C zero chemistry,
which is a non polyfluorinated dwr UM. That's a big word,
but I think people, I mean, we've seen in response
to it, a lot of people ask questions about polyfluorinated.
So I think I think the outdoor community is very
(28:49):
aware of how bad polyfluorinated dw rs and chemicals are. Um.
They basically get on you, they get an environment. Um.
And if they're they're not good, they're they're horrible stuff.
So um, Europe's already outlawed it. So I think, just
in a responsible fashion, both for the environment and for ourselves,
and just in staying compliant with different governments in different worlds,
(29:11):
polyfluorinateds are going. UM. So we used to see zero
d w R, which performed actually better than past polyfluorinated
dwrs in our testing that we spoke to. UM. But
and it's not nearly it's not as nasty of a
chemistry to be coding. So it performed better and it
was greener, is the simplest way I can say it
(29:33):
does the dw R account as one of the layers. No, sorry,
we count that as part of the face layer. When
we say four and a half it, um, so that's
your first layer, that's your face. And I mean I
said a lot there, but that's all I think extremely
relevant to how the garment actually works. Yeah, it mean
it sounds to me like if you if you looked
at it under a microscope, that first layer we'll just
(29:54):
look very smooth and instead of bumpy, which you know,
if you pour the water on a smooth surface, it's
going to roll off easier than if you put it
on a bumpy surface, right, I mean hit it on
the head. That's like exactly. So that's your first layer.
Your second layer is a microporous polyurethane lambing it like
(30:14):
I spoke to. Your third layer is a monolithic polyurethane
layer like I had spoken to. And then we have
a half layer that is actually screen printed onto that
monolithic layer. And what it is is we always talk
about thirty seven five active particles here at First Light,
and we've actually put those particles it's an active carbon
(30:38):
particle into a screen print and printed it and you
can see it in like a pattern. When you look
inside the omen jacket underneath the lining fabric, you can
still see this repeating pattern. And that's that. And what
those active carbon molecules are doing are attracting. They're helping
to attract that water vapor, that condensed water vapor as
(30:59):
you're sweating into themselves and into that monolithic layer and
they're heating up and they're attracting your infrared heat. So
as they heat up and attract that water, that condensation,
they continue pushing it and keeping it as a vapor
because they're moving so fast with your infrared heat and
pushing that sweat and humidity inside the garment into the
laminates and then out of the jacket. So that's kind
(31:21):
of where we've had feedback that you know, OMEN doesn't
get clammy, it doesn't get that humid feeling, and that's
because the thirty seven five, those carbon molecules are working
to keep moving that condensation actively out of the jacket
with the laminate. And then after the that the jackets
finished with a lining um which is just black on
(31:41):
the OMEN and it doesn't Again, it's kind of like
the face fabric. You wouldn't really think it's something real
sexy to talk about. But back to what I said before,
is having that lining there is keeping the oils and
the dirt, blood, anything else in the environment and from
your body from contamin aiding those laminates and ultimately giving
(32:02):
you a garment that doesn't fail and start leaking after
a season or two season. It's giving you a garment
that can resist contamination and actively let the laminates continue
to do their job for year after year. And that's
the four and a half layers. So you have face
fabric one, two laminates, a half layer of the third
(32:22):
we consider we say the thirty seven five screen prints
a half layer. I mean, if you really chopped it
up in all terms of layers, it's like a point
one percent of a layer, but we just kind of
call it out that way. And then you're that final layer.
Is that lining protecting the laminates. Yeah, it does sound
like a lot of layers because I think most of us,
I mean that remember usually it was like a three
(32:44):
layer rain jacket is kind of most common, right, ye yep,
And that's that's usually you know, face fabric, a microporous layer,
and then a lining layer. So they're they're they're losing
that by component, they're losing that second monolithic layer are there,
and they're not having that half layer thirty seven five
we use. And I mean the intention of OMEN was
(33:06):
always to build like, you know, a severe weather storm
shelter and kind of lead the charge as a new
era of inclement weather gear follow weather gear for first light.
So that's kind of just been like, hey, let's let's
build this for the absolute worst of the worst, Like
I said, like thirty five on Prince of Wales and
in raining all day while you're glassing. That was that
was the intention, and also an environment I guess Prince
(33:28):
of Whale is still a good example where you can't
rip the thing. You know, you got flown in, you
have flown in on a super cub and you have
one set of gear. You don't want to go radio
out there. Hey we've got to leave because I slash
my jacket on a you know, the hunts over because
I don't have a rain layer anymore. It's I kind
of wanted to be something that's just out of your
mind and not a concern, and that was that was
the point of omen for me, and that's why we
(33:50):
ended up with a four and a half layer. Yeah,
I've personally been purposefully, personally, purposefully been busting brush in
that jacket, just trying to put some holes in it,
and uh, yet to succeeds. So if it's one thing,
it's tough really well, I know, I mean we've we've
(34:11):
talked in depth about this for a long time, so
it's good to hear that it's not busting open on you. Yep.
I haven't done a full season and yet, but soon
enough I'll be able to report back to you about that.
What about you, Jordan, I used it? Yeah, you had
it up in Alaska on your sheep hunt quite a bit. Yeah,
I had it in Alaska on the sheep hunt. And
then when we got back, he took it to Wyoming
on a sheep hunt and you know, on and offul
(34:33):
horse on that hunt, and courses are hard on things,
and it was it seemed to be. It was fine.
And then later later season when it snowed, I was
wearing the pants to keep my regular pants dry. And
I mean really no complaints on it. I really like it. Awesome, awesome, Hey,
real quick, I was gonna ask what, uh it's I was.
(34:55):
You know, I'm always hoping that we can sort of
educate the uh you know, the listener is to be
like a better consumer. So if they're out shopping jackets
that have breathable laminates in there, what's like a takeaway
that you can give them? They're like, yeah, next time
(35:16):
you're out looking at it, you know, some outerwear and
you're thinking about breathable laminates and what they're gonna do
for you. It's like a simple way that they can
apply what they learned today to what they might buy.
That's a great question, UM. And you know, each each
company in our industry speaks to ratings differently. UM builds
(35:39):
different systems for different purposes. I mean some some companies
only gonna build one set of rain gear for all.
Some are gonna do kind of what we're doing and say, hey,
we have like a the worst possible case scenario system,
we have an intermediate system, and we have like maybe
once a year in archery season, you pull this jacket
out for fifteen minutes. I guess I think owing and
(36:00):
being realistic with what you really expect to encounter and
what you expect to do is to me the benchmark
of where to start shopping. I guess. I mean the
ratings just aren't published like one through ten. It's not
like you have a one rating and a ten rating.
It's it's a lot different and a lot of companies
withhold that. I mean a lot of mills and labs
and stuff who build these laminates they do withhold it.
(36:23):
It's not published information for a lot of reasons. You know,
they're protecting proprietary information. They're protecting intellectual property. And I
think sometimes ratings can be misleading because I guess here
this might answer be honest this previous questions, Like people
can get so hung up on a rating and a
number um that they failed to buy what conditions they
(36:43):
actually needed for So they're so hung up on saying, hey,
this has a this has a twenty five thousand breatheability. Well,
all it takes to be better is a thousand and
one breatheability. Now, technically that's better, But is that true
that that garments better? Um? I don't think so. So
I think ray things published can be a little misleading,
and most people aren't trained to really understand what the
(37:05):
ratings mean or even know how those tests are actually done. UM.
Testing can be manipulated in labs, and we all know.
I mean, I think Greg said it in one of
the original white Tail videos is he's never killed a
buck in a lab before. You know, like, just because
something does very well in a laboratory, it's a great start,
But then really understanding the field conditions and how that's
(37:28):
going to perform for you in the field is more important.
So I think I think ratings are a great thing
to be taken into account, but that's not the end all,
be all, always of how something is gonna work for you.
Thanks Matt, Yeah, absolutely, thank you. All right, well, um,
(37:53):
you have to sign off for both of us. I
hate doing alectros. I'm gonna put it on you. Okay,
we are going to sign off and let's see everybody
on the next episode. Bye to the house, Steve, does it?
See everybody? M
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