Ep. 16: All About Bullets with Garrett Long

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:15):
Welcome back to gear Talk everyone. Jordan here, and I've
got Yannis Talis on with me, and we also have
Garrett long on what's going on. Some could say our
fearless leader.

Speaker 2 (00:29):
Some could say that most wouldn't.

Speaker 3 (00:30):
I think what Jordan means is that Garrett is uh
manages the content production team, so it's more like corraling
a bunch of cats, which is good because Garrett's Garrett's
a little bit of a cowboy, so he's good at
coraling and doing that sort of stuff.

Speaker 2 (00:49):
Yeah, doing a little roping on the on the weekdays.

Speaker 3 (00:53):
Roping on the weekdays. He even wears wranglers and the
cowboy hat sometimes to do That's right.

Speaker 4 (01:01):
Oh man.

Speaker 1 (01:03):
Yeah, So you guys did not too long ago, about
six months ago, you guys did a video it's called
Copper versus Lead. It's on the Meater channel, and in
that you broke down a few different types of bullets
and you shot them at different distances. And we're just
going to dig into that talk a little bit about that.

(01:26):
I guess what would you call that experiment if you will.

Speaker 3 (01:29):
Yeah, experiment test. We're not we didn't do it by
any real scientific parameters, but we did the best we could,
you know, gave each bullet one chance at performance. But
we'll get into that in just a second. First couple announcements,
we'll do a little catch up with Jordan, myself and Garrett.
Feel free to jump in during the catch up section

(01:53):
or the announcement section here up top. If you have
anything to add, please do. But we've launched giveaway. This
is a meat Eater wide giveaway. It's a chance to
win three thousand dollars in awesome hunting gear from all
of our brands, along with a personalized outfitting session with

(02:14):
yours truly, and that means all of our brands, not
just f HF, First Light Phelps, but also the brands
that we carry in the media store. So it is
a full on Meet Eater shopping spree. And I will
get on the phone or zoom whatever you like so

(02:35):
you want it to be so we can look at
each other. We can do it over Zoom or Google meets,
and I will help you dial in your your hunting
gear and the gear you might want for your upcoming
hunting adventures.

Speaker 5 (02:49):
It's super fun.

Speaker 3 (02:50):
I did one of these about a year ago for
another giveaway winner, and it was great to help the
guy out. He had a few questions and we helped,
you know, dial in the specific system that he wanted for.
I think we did it for first Light, we did
it for some optic stuff. He ended up with a
cooler as well. He was definitely one stoked meat Eater

(03:14):
listener and reader. So go to metia dot com and uh,
I don't know what do you gotta type in Garrett giveaway.

Speaker 5 (03:24):
I don't have that information here in front of me.

Speaker 2 (03:27):
Yeah, the meeater dot com slash will We'll get you there.
There's also like some pop ups if you go to
the home pages of any of the sites, that should
get hit with a pop up for it too.

Speaker 3 (03:37):
Okay, so giveaway runs from now through May twenty first,
so you actually don't have that much time left. I
think all all we really want out of it is
your email. So go and enter, and then the winner
will be randomly picked and contacted on May twenty second. Jordan,
how would you like to win that three thousand bucks

(03:58):
an awesome hunt gear and then out to help you
pick everything out?

Speaker 1 (04:03):
Yeah, that would be pretty sweet, especially everything on the store,
Like there's going to be quite a quite a selection
on there. I saw there spearfishing stuff on there last week.

Speaker 5 (04:18):
That's right.

Speaker 3 (04:18):
If you live living near the coast or kind can
manage flying from somewhere in the middle part of the
country out to the coast and do some spearfishing, there's
that year is available for you.

Speaker 2 (04:33):
I just don't know. Sorry to chime in here, but
I just don't know if I would utilize Yanni for
spearfishing gear recommendations. Like I think you got to kind
of play into your hand there a little bit with
shooting equipment and like being a tactician in the mountains.

Speaker 3 (04:51):
Oh hundred percent. If you if you win this shopping
spree and you're a spear fisherman, I will make sure
that we can and you want spearfishing gear, I'll make
sure that we can get Rinella on the line for
at least five or ten minutes to help us dial
that in.

Speaker 5 (05:08):
You're you're one hundred percent right, Garrett. All right, on
to our.

Speaker 3 (05:13):
Daily podcasts or I guess we're bi weekly podcast, but
we do it on every podcast. Jordan, I catch up
a little bit, Jordan. I see in our notes here
you're heading to Hawaii.

Speaker 1 (05:25):
Yeah, going to Uh, we're gonna go to Lnai and
shoot a couple access to her coming up, So big trip.
Never been to Hawaii. We're as we record this, we're
about a week out from the trip, a little bit
over and uh, I'm still in Nebraska, not even in
Idaho where all my stuff is. So it's gonna be
a fun week of smash packing and making sure everything's dialed.

(05:49):
But yeah, super looking forward to that. We're gonna stay
a couple extra days and hang out like see Pearl
Harbor and go do some stuff like that in Hawaii.
So pretty pumped for it.

Speaker 6 (06:03):
What what sort of what weapon are you carrying? I'm
going to take a rifle. I'm going to take am Actually,
you guys saw it. The sig did a nice little
I don't know if you want to call it a
birthday gift or something, but they kind of made me
a sweet little cross with a carbon fiber barrel and

(06:23):
a sweet colorway.

Speaker 1 (06:25):
It's orange, orange and black. So I'm that's what I'm
gonna take. Super pumped.

Speaker 3 (06:33):
Nice save me a steak, would you. That's one animal
I keep hearing about and I've yet to have a
chunk of axis, So if you could bring me a
steak back.

Speaker 4 (06:43):
For sure.

Speaker 1 (06:43):
Yeah, I have had it, and it is is really
it's really good. It's like a got almost like maybe
a little bit of a sweetness to it, I would say.
And it's super tender the piece that I had anyway,
So yeah, super excited about it. But other than that,
we're just we're wrapping up turkey season right now in Nebraska.
I'm go go pull out blinds and then head back

(07:06):
to Idaho in a couple of days. But have you
been out for turkeys yet?

Speaker 5 (07:09):
I have.

Speaker 3 (07:11):
You were just telling me before we started recording that
the turkeys are really starting to go off and hammer
and you're done with clients, and you guys are.

Speaker 4 (07:19):
And we're done.

Speaker 3 (07:19):
You guys are pulling out at the height the peak,
the peak of Goblin. I've been pretty fortunate lately because
I've got well, we're down to one as of yesterday,
and he might have. We had two toms and four
hens right here at the house a couple of evenings.
They actually roost right off our little ridge, and so
it's nice. I always when I if I know they

(07:40):
roosted here, I open up my windows I can listen
to him talking in the morning. But yesterday, driving home,
I saw one strutting not far off the side of
the road, and then as when I was at the
house five minutes later, I heard what I thought was
a shotgun blast. And then there was only one time
that came back with the four ten. So I think
someone might have uh what's the word for that when

(08:02):
you just swipe them off the road?

Speaker 5 (08:08):
Mmmm?

Speaker 4 (08:09):
Form of post.

Speaker 3 (08:10):
Garrett, you're Almoca, Montana boy. I've known you and I
know you've participated at some point in your life and
that kind of activity.

Speaker 2 (08:20):
I uh, you just talk it. I mean we called
it road hunting growing up. We didn't know there's.

Speaker 5 (08:25):
Anything oh yeah, but road hunting, all right, road hunting.

Speaker 3 (08:30):
Actually, Jordan, you've probably done it just as much as
uh as Garrett, because I know in Nebraska at least
it was when I hunted back there ten years ago.

Speaker 2 (08:41):
Uh.

Speaker 3 (08:41):
As long as you're not on the county road, I
believe if you're on a for service road you can
actually shoot out of your vehicle.

Speaker 5 (08:49):
Is that still true?

Speaker 1 (08:50):
I didn't think that. I didn't think that it was
public lands that you could do it on. But you
can on private as long as your vehicle is stopped.
It doesn't even have to be shut off park at
least the last time the game warden explained it to us. Yeah,
but on private land, as long as you're stopped, you
can shoot out of the vehicle.

Speaker 3 (09:09):
So fun fact, I suppose unbelievable. I've told this story before,
I'll tell it again. Brody Henderson and I were there
hunting one time, hunt public ground, and we had just
stuffed a buck into the back of the truck and
we didn't want really anybody to see it because we
didn't want to, you know, kind of say, hey, this
is a good spot to hunt. And right as we
got a tailgate shut and cracked a beer, here comes

(09:32):
a red suburban down this bumpy dirt road kind of
down into this canyon that we were in, And I
kid you not, every window had a gun barrel pointed
out it. Even the driver's window I had a gun
barrel pointing out of it. I thought, Holy col here's
something I've never seen before. They pull up, friendly as

(09:54):
can be. Well, every single crotch there was four four
crotches in this vehicle, four gun barrels, four crotches. Every
crotch had a I don't know if it was a
bush light or what but it was some sort of
adult beverage light beer in there, and that was their program,
rolling around red suburban gum barrels out the window bush lights.

(10:18):
I don't condone that one bit, but it was eye
opening to say the least.

Speaker 4 (10:26):
Yeah, I can imagine.

Speaker 3 (10:28):
All right, I happen to doing some turkey hunting. Steve
and I just did our annual TRCP Raffle Sweep Steaks
hunt in Michigan. And that's a hunt that we raffle
off every Usually the raffle happens in April, so the
raffles already ended this year for next year's hunt. But

(10:49):
next April April twenty twenty four, you'll be able to apply,
buy some raffle tickets and then hopefully win and come
and hunt with Steve and I in twenty twenty five.
I know, you really got to be thinking ahead for this,
but that's how it goes. Everything's a year out. But
we just hunted with the They actually weren't the winners
from last year.

Speaker 5 (11:09):
A friend of this guy won it.

Speaker 3 (11:13):
And it was interesting to me because this guy, I
was like, well, why did he even apply if he
didn't want to go on this hunt? And their answer was, well,
he's into shooting sports, he's into fishing, and he's into conservation,
and so he supports RCP and I thought, oh, all right,
that's cool. And so when he won, he called up

(11:33):
his buddy and said, hey, I just won this trip.
I'm not going I'm not interested in it. Do you
want to go?

Speaker 5 (11:37):
In him?

Speaker 3 (11:38):
And the guy was beside himself. And so we had
two really awesome dudes from Illinois. They met us up
in Michigan and we had great hunting. I think within
three days we killed five gobblers and that included a
couple misses. So yeah, it's a great place for a

(12:00):
turkey hunt, great place to hang out, uh, great place
to make some new friends. So yeah, Steve and I
just got done with that. A few days prior to that,
I rolled into Wisconsin first to do some habitat improvement
slash management on my Wisconsin property.

Speaker 5 (12:17):
That and with my dad, and holy cow, did we work.

Speaker 3 (12:23):
I worked. The old guys they worked too, just not
quite in this at the same rate and pace and
length of day that I did.

Speaker 5 (12:32):
They're they're you know.

Speaker 3 (12:33):
They're all they're retired or partially retired, so they're they're
not out there trying to bust their asses.

Speaker 2 (12:39):
But we put in a little did they were they
good at instructing at least Janni. They kind of help
you out when you needed a little bit of advice.

Speaker 3 (12:47):
Totally hundred percent, Like when we dug a little pond
and I rented the miniacs, and I've messed with the
Miniacs enough that I figured I could get this job done. Luckily,
my neighbor from the north rolls in. He was just
going to stop in and help, maybe run a saarro
or whatever. Well, he rolls in with his dad, who.

Speaker 5 (13:09):
Runs a.

Speaker 3 (13:13):
Runs a Cranberry bog and basically runs Mini X every
single day. So after watching me flounder for five or
ten minutes, he's like, what do you want done?

Speaker 5 (13:23):
And let me get in.

Speaker 3 (13:24):
There, you know, And so in an hour he got
done what I would would have at least taken me
the whole day. And I don't even know if I
would have finished, because it's just it's awkward, you know.
I mean, even though the controls are there and you
just scoop and move and whatnot, and you just I
can do it. It's just I'm doing it at ten
percent of the speed as which the season pro doesn't.

(13:47):
So yeah, And when we were doing that, everybody was watching.
Everybody's giving advice on depth and with and YadA YadA
should dos. Yeah, what you should do is this.

Speaker 5 (13:58):
So I did.

Speaker 3 (13:58):
When he was done, I to get in and I
just drove out down through the woods a little ways
and just dug my own hole, just so I could
say that when I rented this miniac, I dug a
hole for no good reason. I'm just gonna see. Maybe
it'll collect some water, We'll see. And then I did
learn the proper technique form moving. We cut a lot
of trees and brushed around this pond, and so instead

(14:23):
of trying to pick it up and move it, I
learned how to just push with the uh, you know,
with the bucket and got a lot of that stuff
moved out of the way. So besides that, I did
a whole bunch of hack and squirt on the maples
in our woods where we're getting ready to cut. And
so basically that you're you're poisoning the uh the maples

(14:45):
so that when the oaks are cut, you don't have
this crazy maple regeneration.

Speaker 5 (14:49):
We're gonna have it anyways, but you're basically trying.

Speaker 3 (14:52):
To give the oaks a better shot and less competition
by doing that. The one thing that I where I
I put some the most amount of effort and work
was we have a ridge top that I wanted to
knock down some trees to let more sunlight to the
ridge top. And I gotta say, it's a hard thing

(15:14):
to do depending on how you were raised, but I
definitely had more liberal parents and came up with, you know,
don't hurt trees, don't cut trees. Don't use paper bags
because you cut trees to use paper bags. Now a
paper bag user, because those plastic bags are the devil's product.

(15:34):
But yeah, it's a hard thing to do just to
go and cut trees down.

Speaker 5 (15:40):
What's that?

Speaker 1 (15:43):
Oh, I just said that ideas kind of flipped of
the paper bags and plastic bags.

Speaker 3 (15:47):
Yeah, exactly, And the idea in my head has kind
of flipped about cutting trees. Right, the more I learned
about all this stuff and habitat management. If these forests
are much more than ten years old, nothing happened in there.
Happened as in fire or trees getting cut down or whatever.
It might be some kind of disturbance that once all

(16:11):
that stuff grows out of you know, above.

Speaker 5 (16:13):
The reach of any kind of animal.

Speaker 3 (16:16):
Then they can't feed on it, and there's really not
much value to it, and it becomes what they call
it a close canopy forest, which we have a lot
of where I'm at in Wisconsin, but generally across the Midwest.
It looks beautiful. You go in there, you can see
two three hundred yards, you know, big oaks and whatever.
But if you start to look at the forest floor,

(16:36):
there's nothing there. There's no cover, there's no food other
than when the acorns dropped for a month out of
the year, but otherwise there's no brows in there to eat.
So anyways, plant was knocked down a bunch of trees
and get some sunlight to it, and holy cow, run
it a chainsaw for three straight days. I mean I
was not quite broken, but pretty close. Definitely walking around

(16:59):
like an old guy. And I can tell you that
all my cuts started kind of rising up the tree,
so I didn't have to bend over it as far,
and I was my stumps were getting taller. But yeah,
my dad and I chipped in and got new steel.
I think it's the two sixty one and uh, perfect

(17:20):
size for doing that kind of work, not too heavy
to lug around in the woods. I used my first
light transfer pack. Mark did not like this when I
showed him that I had bar oil and gasoline in
my in my inn, the same pack that I used
to hunt white tails.

Speaker 5 (17:36):
I'm like, dude, this is I just cover.

Speaker 2 (17:40):
Yeah, I haven't heard of white tails being spooked of
bar oil yet or gasoline. I mean they hang out
next to the road all the time. What's the problem, dude.

Speaker 3 (17:48):
I'm telling you multiple people, I've been starting to make
a lot of phone calls in that area to talk
to other people that you know, manage their land intensively
like this, and they multiple people have said that those
deer here that chainsaw and they are waiting two hundred
yards away for you to leave, and they're gonna come

(18:09):
in there and start feeding because they know that you're
bringing down trees.

Speaker 5 (18:13):
They're going to first feed.

Speaker 3 (18:15):
On the the tops of the trees, all the buds
that are, you know whatever, eighty feet out of reach
for them. Now they're on the forest floor, they can
feed on them. And then a week later there's gonna
be new growth because of the sunlight that's now being
allowed to hit the ridge top. And so as soon
as I did this and kind of finished up, I said,

(18:36):
I put three cameras up on this ridge, and the
first night deer were in there using the trails that
I'd created, or not trails, but these sort of kind
of tunnels between all the stuff that I had dropped,
and just like I said, feeding on the on the tops.
And now since I've been gone for a week, there's

(18:57):
been more and more use. So so far it seems
to be doing the trick. I gotta say one thing
I wish I would have done before I went to
try to fell. I bet you I fell somewhere between
I don't know, three hundred to five hundred trees. Now,
A lot of these are little mape A lot of
these are little maples, you know, and just stuff that's small, right,

(19:19):
a couple of inches in diameter, all the way up
to big jack pines and white pines that were I
don't know, not quite two feet probably, Well, a lot
of trees went down, and I thought, I knew I'd
been trained by a professional arborist on how to fell
a tree, but I think I had forgotten just a

(19:40):
couple of things, especially about the angles of the wedge
that you cut out to fell a tree and instead
of so, when I got home, I started doing some
YouTube and on fell in a tree and came upon
an awesome website.

Speaker 5 (19:57):
It is called.

Speaker 3 (20:00):
Website YouTube channel called Guilty of Treason at east Side
Tree Works. Yeah, and man, these guys, I'm telling you
they people must love trees get getting felled because they've
got quite the following. A lot of their videos have
a lot of views, and they're absolute masters at what

(20:20):
they do. And they've got a great video out there,
what's it called the World's Best Tree Felling Tutorial Eight
Ways to Fell a Tree, And they do eight different
types of cuts, which is basically you're gonna cut out
the wedge on one side of the tree, which is
where it's gonna fall, and then you have a back
cut that you know, releases the holding wood. And the

(20:43):
way they had this perfect property where the where there's
ten of these giant uh, I don't know, I didn't
know if they were ponderosis or what, some kind of
really nice tall straight pines, and so they do a
different cut on each one, and I mean they're giants,
and some of them are even leaning towards this house
and they could easily hit land on the house and

(21:03):
they're like, oh yeah, just do this and then you know,
make your hinge woods. It's just it's fascinating and their
pros and I wish I would have watched it before
I went into the woods and did this. So if
you're thinking about going out and doing doing some tinder
timber stand improvement, highly recommend YouTube Guilty of Trees and

(21:26):
and uh watch what they cheat teach about felling trees
because it's, uh it's fascinating and very educational and you'll
be probably safer.

Speaker 5 (21:35):
I tell you.

Speaker 3 (21:35):
One thing you'll have less less pinched saw blades. One
thing I didn't have with me was a wedge and
an axe, and uh, I pinched my saw I don't
know half dozen times, which isn't that many for cutting
three hundred trees down, but still it's a pain in
the butt because then you got to start get another

(21:56):
saw and it gets dangerous.

Speaker 2 (21:59):
So yeah, man, that's like always my biggest concern when
I'm out trying to act like I know what I'm doing,
when I like do something like that once every three years,
is getting the sauce stuck, because there's nothing more embarrassing
and nothing that makes you look more like an amateur
when you step back from your saw and have to
shut it off and you stare up at this tree

(22:21):
not really knowing what to do next, and then you know,
typically it leads to laughing and poking fun at the
person that has left set saw in the tree.

Speaker 3 (22:30):
Oh yeah, there's there's there's also a moment before you
step away and look up at the tree where you
just step away and put both your hands on the
tree and think, oh, I'll just push it a little bit,
to push it and then remove my saw, and then
you realize that, oh no, these trees are heavy.

Speaker 5 (22:48):
Yeah yeah, yeah, total, So I'm making light of it.

Speaker 4 (22:52):
Now my electric wall is going to tackle that job.

Speaker 3 (22:56):
Well, actually I was using it when I would pinch
sure my saw. I was getting my dad's little electric
steel and then coming back and basically, you know, then
felling the tree the way that it wanted to go,
and just leaving my saw pinched until I got rid
of the tree, and then and then taking mine out.

Speaker 5 (23:14):
So yeah, it would it would get it would take
care of that.

Speaker 3 (23:17):
But the proper way would be if you've got one
of those leaners and it ain't going the way you
wanted to go. Is you get some wedges and you
start your cut and then you basically back in the
the wedges coming behind your saw blade, and uh that
pushes the tree over. So again, I'm no expert, but

(23:39):
I did watch the YouTube video called the World's Best
Tree Felling Tutorial, so go check it out.

Speaker 5 (23:48):
All right, I think we're caught. We're caught up there now,
you know.

Speaker 3 (23:51):
Oh last, but not least, since I'm sitting here scratching
my belly because if freaking itches, because I cannot go
turkey honey anywhere where there's poison oak or poison ivy
without coming back with some Luckily, it's a mild case
for what I've dealt with in the past, and it
seems to already be receding.

Speaker 5 (24:12):
But got lye. It just loves me miserable.

Speaker 2 (24:17):
Yeah. Man, that's like something I've like never had to Like.
It was eye opening when I went down to Texas
and ran into a briar patch down there, which to me,
briar patch is like where the bunny rabbits go on cartoons. Right,
I've never had to deal with them in Montana, and
the reality of like poison oak a lot. We have

(24:39):
poison ivy up here, but as you know, like not everywhere,
it's like pretty tough to find. And then briar's just
like all the stuff that you got to look out
for when you're not in Montana is amazing that people
still go out there and want to hunt all the time.
Those briar patches, like did not make sense that you'd
ever want to go in there and hunt in that.

Speaker 3 (25:00):
Well, you don't go in, you don't go through them,
you go around them.

Speaker 2 (25:06):
Yeah, yeah, maybe that was my problem.

Speaker 5 (25:10):
Yeah, we've got grizzly bears.

Speaker 3 (25:13):
But the the flora around here doesn't really seem to
want to scratch you up too bad. Where that that
those kind of briar patches you're talking about, it'll destroy
a set.

Speaker 5 (25:25):
Of clothes in a heartbeat. Mm hmmm hmm.

Speaker 3 (25:30):
All right, let's get onto what we all got here
to uh to do, and that's to talk about bullets.
I'm hoping we're gonna actually get in some arguing about
what's the best bullet, and but before that, we're gonna
kind of tackle a it's a follow up listener question.
We're in a previous episode, we discussed uh the best

(25:51):
hunting caliber. But then Patrick Kirby wrote in via gear
talk at themea dot com, so you have a question
right into gear talk at the Mediator dot com and
he asked how to determine if you are under a gunt?
And I'm guessing that's that came from me. I think
I said something about, hey, you just got to have

(26:12):
the minimum of caliber to get the job done. So
some of that is is objective, but there are like
while joining you explain there are minimums.

Speaker 4 (26:30):
Yeah, yeah, there are minimums.

Speaker 1 (26:32):
I think like a decent place to start or something
that you should at least look at, because I think
some folks don't know that it's even a thing. Is
a lot of states that you're hunting, they have minimum
caliber requirements. So I think like here in Nebraska for deer,
it's like a two forty. It might be twenty two
to fifty and up or something like that. But that is,

(26:53):
there are minimum calibers. But you can also get on
like a ballistic calculator. I tend to like the sig
sour one just because I've been around it a lot.
Garrett can speak to this a little bit. There might
be some more even ones that are just online and
on an app. And basically what you just need to
do is enter your bullet weight and your muzzle velocity

(27:17):
that is coming out of that barrel when you're shooting it,
and that will give you your energy, and a lot
of apps will mark it out to distances as well.
So if you're, what two thousand foot pounds coming out
at the bar or at the muzzle, then at two
hundred three hundred yards, it'll show you, like what you

(27:39):
what your muzzle or your foot pounds of energy should
be out to that far. A common threshold that I
found throughout a couple of websites, game and fish websites
for an ELK is fifteen hundred foot pounds. So you
can run your bullet data through and you can say,
all right, well, I'm definitely okay at the muzzle for
my velocity, but out to let's say I only to

(28:02):
meet that minimum, I can I should only shoot out
to like four hundred yards or something that's theoretical, but yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2 (28:10):
And SIGs binos. I think there's a setting in there,
Jordan crist me if I'm wrong, where you can have
it like flash at you when you're beyond your energy
threshold that you want to shoot at or something. There's
like a limitter there where you can see through the
I think the ten k's like, am I beyond that

(28:32):
threshold I want to be at? For energy? The other
thing that I would like add to that too is,
you know, energy is a big deal. I can't remember
what minimum thresholds if people like to be at are,
but velocity I would say per bullet that you're shooting.
I know Yanni and I will probably get into it
talking about this experiment, But a lot of these bullets,

(28:53):
they they perform differently at different speeds, whether you're shooting
copper or like a cup and core, and they need
minimum velocities to perform and expand. So that's maybe just
as important as energy is looking at the bullet that
you're shooting and how fast it needs to go to
open up and do the thing that it needs to do.

Speaker 3 (29:16):
Yeah, I think most of them hover around eighteen hundred
feet a second. Is somewhere in that range is going
to be minimum for most bullets to work.

Speaker 1 (29:26):
And a bullet will tell you that like a manufacturer,
like on the box will they tell you that, or
at least on their website. Yeah, all right, we are
diving into the main section of this podcast with Garrett.

(29:49):
We are going to talk about this video that you
and Yanni did six months ago talking about different types
of bullets, because so, can you give us an rundown of, like,
what was the idea behind this copper versus led video
and why you wanted to do it?

Speaker 5 (30:09):
You want to tackle Garrett?

Speaker 2 (30:11):
Yeah, man, So Janny and I were kind of talking
about this for a while, but really where the stem
from is we've seen ballistic gel tests done on like
comparing bullets, Like you can type in ballistic gel tests
and get a lot of results. What we hadn't seen
is testing the different types of bullets at variable ranges

(30:35):
and through different mediums, meaning like a clear gel versus
gel with bone in it. We'd like we could find
tests where people were going like cup and core versus
a bonded bullet, but they were all at like one
hundred yard tests, and so we thought the market was
lacking in a test at other hunting ranges. There's some

(30:59):
of us that liked to poke out around five hundred
yards and stuff, and what's the difference in bullet performance
out at that range? Versus one hundred yards. So we
kind of put this together as a hey, choose your
bullet based off of how you're hunting and what you're hunting,
not just like what the optimal performance is at one

(31:19):
hundred yards through a clear ballistic Joe.

Speaker 1 (31:22):
Can you explain you talked about you guys use a
copper bullet, a cup and corp bullet, and a bonded
lad bullet. Can you talk about those three different types
of bullets and kind of what they're what the idea
is behind them.

Speaker 2 (31:35):
Yeohanni, you want me to hit that or are you
going to take that one?

Speaker 5 (31:38):
Uh?

Speaker 3 (31:38):
Yeah, we can tag team for sure. Start off with
your favorite, Garrett, the cup and core. We'll cut to
the chase. I know what your favorite is?

Speaker 2 (31:46):
Yeah, well, but full disclosure man during that video. We
have video proof of it. I was a huge bonded
fan like that bullet expanded. It was just like it
was a picture perfect expansion every time at every range,

(32:08):
from five hundred yards out all the way into one hundred.
It looked like a commercial for that bullet. It was
exceptional and through the gel it was hard not to
pick it as the winner. It was the most consistent Uh,
it created quite a lot of shock in the gel
while you know, we weighted afterwards and we were getting

(32:30):
like ninety nine zero point nine percent weight retention. When
we consider lead bullets and environmental factors, that's a big
deal too, as well as meat loss. So it was great.
I've since changed my mind because of some of the
intangibles that I don't think we captured in those in
that gel test. And that's after a season of using

(32:54):
bonded slash. You know, I used like the eldx's a
lot this year, which is it has a lot of
bonded properties. In terms of weight retention, I'd say it's
like a better expanding or a more rapid expanding bonded bullet,
but it still retains weight really well. And everything that

(33:15):
got shot died. I want to preface that they all died.
They did not die in the way that I hoped
that they would or at the rate And so I
had this year, everything that I was testing bonded bullets
with was out of a six or five PRC and
everything that got hit ran like and ran fast, and

(33:39):
they might only go fifty yards, but they they didn't
have that classic stop in their tracks that when you're
hunting some timber if you don't have a lot of
snow on the ground, like the things that I like
to see in bullet performance. And then the only two
animals that were killed with in full disclosure, like straight
up match Ammo, like did the full on you know,

(34:03):
hashtag dirt nap kind of thing right where they just
and they were all at sub five hundred but between
four and five hundred yards like stopped right there. And
that's what you get out of a you know, a
rapid expansion or sometimes exploding cup and core bullet.

Speaker 5 (34:24):
All right, you got off track a little bit and.

Speaker 4 (34:27):
What that means.

Speaker 2 (34:28):
But Yanni was going to course correct me here. I
feel like I did get off track because I got excited.

Speaker 3 (34:33):
Well, yeah, you just had to explain what the cup
and core bullet is and then also explain what match
grade is.

Speaker 2 (34:44):
Okay, Well, so cup and core is like you're very
basic AMMO type that most of us grew up shooting,
where it's literally a core lead piece with a cup
of copper like molded around it, but they're not attached.

Speaker 3 (35:01):
The best known cup and core is probably the Remington
core locked.

Speaker 2 (35:07):
Yeah, I mean it's frankly it's what everybody shot up
until not very long ago. And then when I talk
match Amo, it's when you when you think of like
some Burger targets, Sierra match kings, those type of bullets
Hornity has like an E L d M. Generally those

(35:28):
are associated with like their primary UH purpose is creating
very repeatable, perfect bullet shapes. Generally they have a softer
face or a thinner cup, and because of that they
blow up when they hit right like they have a

(35:50):
lot of expansion when they hit whatever it is that
they're going to hit. If you can balance that, I've
just found if you can balance that with speed, people's
base concern is penetration. If you can balance out with speed,
I feel like you still get the penetration that you're
looking for, even on an exploding bullet. But that's the
basic design of.

Speaker 4 (36:08):
A cup and core I got it for bullet performance.

Speaker 1 (36:13):
Like on an animal, are you looking for, like you know,
two holes or do you want that bullet to explode?
What's what's your take on that?

Speaker 2 (36:23):
I like all of the energy shedding in the animal. Frankly,
based off of this last hunting season, two holes are
great for blood tracking. Turns out though if they die
standing there, you don't really have to blood track them
very much. So I I do. Like when a bullet

(36:44):
goes in there, it goes from twenty five hundred feet
per second to zero and it all stops right there.

Speaker 3 (36:52):
Okay, before we get too much more into performance, let's
cover off on bonded and then the copper bullet, which
is the two others that we tested. So the bonded
is similar to that cup and core in that there
is a core within an outside shell or jacket as
they call it, but the two have been chemically bonded

(37:16):
together so that they just retain weight better and they
hold together better, and you don't get that crazy rapid
expansion and explosion in air quotes type effect where the
bullet shatters into a bunch of little pieces. The bonded
bullet is made to stay together better longer, not lose

(37:39):
any of its front end. You get high weight retention
and probably better penniture, should get better penetration. And then
finally the third one was the copper bullet, which some
of them are not one hundred percent copper. They call
them what's the term garrett when it's like a blend,

(37:59):
but it's a copper bullet, it's an amalgam.

Speaker 2 (38:07):
Yeah, it's escaping me right now.

Speaker 3 (38:10):
All right, look it up. But some of the all
copper bullets are actually not one hundred percent uh uh copper,
you know, they're blended with some other things. Barnes has
been doing that long long time.

Speaker 4 (38:26):
Uh.

Speaker 3 (38:27):
I'm not one hundred percent sure on this, but I
think the Barnes was doing that. The reasoning was because
they felt like those all copper projectiles were just were
better across a lot of different performance standards than other bullets,
which is why they started making them. Then came along
the hey, let's not shoot lead deal, and so people

(38:50):
were looking more for copper bullets and they were in
the right place at.

Speaker 5 (38:54):
The right time.

Speaker 3 (38:55):
I I when I first found out about Barnes, it
was because I watched a guy shoot and I big
five point bull and he dirt napped him and I said, WHOA,
what's that bullet?

Speaker 2 (39:05):
Right?

Speaker 3 (39:05):
We've we recovered it. It was just in the far
side of the hide and I looked at it and
I said, wow, that's cool. And he goes, oh, yeah,
you know, I've been reloading these for years, great success,
YadA YadA.

Speaker 5 (39:16):
YadA.

Speaker 3 (39:16):
So but again the copper, uh usually because it's a
little bit lighter than lead, so it's a longer profile.
So it gives you a little bit of a higher BC,
higher sexual density, and uh maybe a little bit less
fouling in your barrel.

Speaker 2 (39:39):
And I think a correction there, Yanni, though, is sectional
density I think is lower?

Speaker 3 (39:45):
Is it?

Speaker 2 (39:46):
Because the sectional density of copper is less than lead.
That's why your bullet has to be longer to achieve
the same weight, and that's generally why speed and twist
can be a little bit more of an shoot with copper.

Speaker 3 (40:01):
Okay, my understanding, So I stay corrected, less sexual density
but sometimes higher BC's right.

Speaker 2 (40:09):
Yeah, yeah, And I think you're right too that that
Barns I think was like the iconic copper bullet that
before the don't shoot lead kind of stuff started. I
think they were mainly looking for penetration out at distance, right.
They needed a bullet that would stay together and punch

(40:30):
through an elk shoulder, you know, at five hundred.

Speaker 3 (40:33):
Yards, well, I think at any at any I mean
that was because they were probably making those before they
were making bonded bullets even and so I think they
just needed at any distance. They needed a bullet that
had a you know, super high structural integrity. And whether
it's an elk or if you're going to Africa to
shoot some big game. You know that a lot of

(40:56):
this bullet discussion can be around or can be sort
of guided by you know, what are you going to
be shooting it at? And then and then at what
range you're going to be shooting it at? Because no
one's going to go shoot a cup and core bullet
at a dangerous game animal. I can tell you that much,
right right, Yep, maybe some maybe a thin skinned cat,

(41:19):
but I would expect they wouldn't mess around with that
thing either, with that bullet. So anyways, there's a three
different types. Those are three different types that we tested.
And uh, yeah, I don't know, Jordan, do you want
to go into, uh like what we actually did in

(41:40):
the test and what we saw in the test?

Speaker 1 (41:43):
Yeah, I mean I think that would be super helpful
and maybe you know, we can cliff note it just
a little bit, but I think you know, going through
the test and how you guys did it'd be super beneficial.

Speaker 3 (41:53):
Sure, well, Gary, you pretty much explained what the test
was to but just to recap quickly. Five hundred three
hundred and I think one hundred and fifty yards ish
was the last distance we shot six to five creed
more the uh, let me see. The three that we
tested was one hundred and twenty grain Federal Trophy copper,

(42:15):
one hundred and thirty five grain Federal Burger Hybrid hunter,
which was the cup and core, and then the the
one hundred and thirty grain Federal Terminal ascent, which was
the bonded bullet, and we had each one up. We
shot at two different gels at each of those distances,
one gel with no scalpula in it and then one
gel with a deer scalpula in it. Going into it,

(42:44):
I thought that we would see the crazy like short range,
short range within the gel destruction from the cup and core,
and then we would see you know, better penetration, you know,
longer penetration with the other two bullets. That's sort of
what I was expecting. And I didn't think that it

(43:04):
was going to change too much whether you hit the
scapula or not, would you think, Garrett.

Speaker 2 (43:12):
Uh, Yeah, Going into it, I thought the scapula would
actually change it a lot, right, Like I thought at
five hundred yards, we would see the cup and core
struggle with penetration, and that it would perform the best

(43:33):
at kind of like that mid range, and that at
longer distance we would see the copper really outperform the
others because of the penetration factor, like it would just out.
We would see like the result of a copper or
even the bonded bullet getting that penetration at range, regardless

(43:55):
of scapula or not.

Speaker 5 (43:56):
Yeah, I think too.

Speaker 3 (43:57):
It's it's the fact that it was only a deer scapula,
which is just you know, if you've ever actually butchered,
if you've butchered your own deer and taken a part
of deer's shoulder, that deer scalpula ways, I don't know,
four to six maybe four to eight ounces. I mean
I doubt it weighs a half a pound. I mean,
it's a pretty light small bone, and sure it's a

(44:22):
little bit harder than say gel or meat, but uh,
it's definitely not an elk scapula or a moose scapula, right.

Speaker 2 (44:32):
Right right, Yeah, I think if we had to redo it,
I would like go down to the local butcher shop
and grab some like cow scapulas, right, yeah, and really
try to do something because I I would say it
was almost a non factor, right, Like it increased the

(44:52):
results of the bullets, Like it was just a little
bit more drastic, but it was so minimal that without
dissecting it with slow mo and the camera setups that
we had, it like, it'd be very hard to tell
the difference. Yeah.

Speaker 3 (45:08):
Yeah, So general results of what we saw was, uh,
I guess we can start. We can start for whatever
we shot from far, and then we went closer and
at distance the cup and core, because of its you know,
lesser structural integrity, it still you know, expanded and did

(45:32):
its thing at that distance, while the bonded and the
copper did a little bit less. The bonded still mushroomed
pretty dang good, and the copper was at that distance
you would say, eh, like that's not the best, you know,
like I'm sure it would still kill an animal, but
it's just the holes not as big, the pedals weren't

(45:55):
as big, so you're just not getting that, you know,
the spinning giant pedals going through the animal, you know,
when those petals open up off that bullet, And yeah,
I think that that would be the one time you'd say, yeah,
I don't know if that copper was perfect for that.

(46:15):
Like I said, it's still probably, but it just didn't
have enough energy.

Speaker 2 (46:21):
Yeah, I mean shot placement is king. But I would
tell folks that'll go look at that video that that
copper bullet at the five hundred yard distance, it looked
like it was just wearing a little hat right, like
those petals barely trimmed back. If I the cup and core,
it actually didn't do as much as I thought it

(46:42):
would at five hundred but that if you watch that video,
the tip of that bullet ripped off and it created
like a ton of yaw in it, so it still
ended up almost like tumbling through the gel, which when
you watch the slow mo still create like that. You know,
whether you want to call it hydrostatic shock or whatever,

(47:05):
it's created like a lot of shockwaves to the gel
just from that bullet tumbling. But I would say the
most the prettiest one out of the five hundred yard
was definitely the bonded like it. I was surprised how
well it expanded.

Speaker 3 (47:18):
Yeah, yeah, it did the trick, and again not too
much difference, you know between scapula and no scapula. Like
you said, it caused the bullets to do a little
bit more expanding, but not that much. And then distance wise,
I can't remember as far as actual penetration that did

(47:38):
at that distance, I'm guessing the bond in the coppers
still outperformed the cup and core right as far as
just straight penetration goes.

Speaker 2 (47:48):
Yeah, I think they just barely made it out of
that eighteen inch block right into the secondary block. And
then I think the cup and core, if I remember right,
stopped like right. Well, it actually in one are the
ways you can see it. I think it barely came
out of the gel at a point where it like
laid down next to it, like the on the plywood

(48:10):
like behind it. It just like barely poked out and
flopped down right, so it stopped there. I like something
we didn't get to talk about in the video. With
the bonded bullet, it performed really well. Man, it was
hard to hit that little block with that bonded bullet.
I just don't think that I saw the consistency in

(48:32):
terms of accuracy out of that. Now, all guns shoot
bullets differently, but I do know bondeds are inherently. Typically
they're less accurate because of that chemical process creating inconsistency. So,
for whatever it's worth, it was it was the one
that was most nervous about hitting, you know, really like

(48:54):
a minute of angle sized target and not even a
minute of angle because that scapula righty, he was like
three and a half inches four inches across, right, and
we're trying to center punch it. That made me the
most nervous, considering that the heat that we were dealing with,
trying to get stuff going before wind. It was tough
with that bonded bullet.

Speaker 3 (49:14):
Yeah, all right, moving into three hundred yards, Uh, what
do we see, Garrett? About the same.

Speaker 2 (49:25):
Yeah, I'd say it was just like more of it, right,
the copper bullet, instead of just having like a little
hat on top of it, seemed to peel back a
little more. I was still disappointed in it, man, Like,
I still felt like I would have liked to see
copper expand more than what it did. The bonded expanded
as it did at five hundred, just even more so.

(49:47):
And then I think that's where we did start seeing
that cup and core come apart more.

Speaker 3 (49:52):
Yea, And.

Speaker 2 (49:55):
Yeah, so I think it was just it was similar
results comparing him to each other. It was just more
draft astick bullet to bullet.

Speaker 5 (50:02):
Yeah, and definitely the scapula seemed to take more energy
and almost explode, and a lot of times we had
the scapula actually fragments of it leaving the gel when
those bullets would hit it would kind of blow it
out of there.

Speaker 3 (50:19):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (50:19):
It is something to note on that too that we
saw at all the ranges, but I think three hundred
was the best example. Both the copper and bonded expanded fast.

Speaker 5 (50:30):
Man.

Speaker 2 (50:30):
If you remember, right, the cup and core kind of
left this like little tiny hole in the scapula and
then came apart almost after that, almost like center mass
of the gel, and that those bonded and copper bullets
they were like full expansion mode going into the scapula

(50:50):
and those scapulas were gone.

Speaker 3 (50:52):
Yeah, and that was a real big surprise, not what
you'd expect to see the cup and core actually make
it through what was it like four or five inches
of gel and then the scapula, yeah, right, and then
it would it would start to you know, expand and
it and actually the one that had just the gel,

(51:13):
it was similar, right, it made it four or five
inches and then started to do its thing, where again
the bonded in the copper, UH started to do its
thing right right off the bat, which you know, it
could be just the amount of design and engineering that
goes into each one of these bullets, right, That's what
you get when you pay for more of a premium bullet.

(51:35):
Is somebody's you know, there's an engineer that made the
bullet to start expanding as soon as it hits anything, right.

Speaker 1 (51:47):
Yep, Garrett, have you heard those cup and Corr bullets
that are like the burger At closer distances, I would
say within three hundred that folks will just get like

(52:09):
two pinholes through the animal, especially if they don't hit
a bone.

Speaker 2 (52:13):
I've heard that. I haven't witnessed it personally, like I've
shot a lot of critters or witnessed it with a
lot of critters with a burger, and I've never once
seen them pinhole. And I think, as Yanni brings up
this kind of one hundred and forty yard shot, something

(52:35):
I was going to point out across the spectrum, we
saw nearly the same amount of penetration from these bullets
at one hundred, three hundred and five hundred yards. It
was just that they were expanding more so they couldn't
go as far, but they had more speed, and it's
almost like they just balanced out perfectly. Like Cup and

(52:57):
Core almost always stayed in the first jel, regardless of
five hundred or one hundred and forty or one hundred
and ten, whatever it was, Yanni, and I think the
same was said for Copper and bonded. They all had
like the same amount of penetration. It's just that since
they expanded more at the shorter distances, it had a

(53:17):
harder time pushing through the jail.

Speaker 4 (53:20):
Got it.

Speaker 3 (53:22):
Yeah, If anything, Jordan, I've heard and I actually remember,
it was a you know, it was a nozzler ACU
bond out of a three hundred weather be I'm guessing
it was a one eighty. It might have been a
two hundred grainer. But a buddy of mine shot at
Elkott was forty or fifty yards close for that gun,

(53:46):
and you would think that it would just bowl that
thing over right. It killed him. I can't remember exactly
what the shot placement was. This was twenty years ago.
He probably shot him right behind the shoulder. But that
bullet could not take that that extreme amount of energy
speed velocity at that short distance, because I'm guessing it

(54:09):
was coming out of there.

Speaker 5 (54:10):
I don't know.

Speaker 3 (54:11):
Would you guess three hundred weather be one hundred and
eighty grainer Garrett, mean that's thirty one? Yeah, I was
going to say thirty one, even like it's it's cooking.
And that bullet did not go through, didn't go to
the far side. It went in halfway and had it
expanded like crazy and sort of came apart like a

(54:34):
like a cup and core. But the bull ran off
and died right fifty yards later. Now, I'm sure if
he would have shot it right on the shoulder, probably
would have dirt napped it right there. Again, depends on
where you shoot him. But it seems to me like
at those close, super close ranges, it's super hot speeds
that instead of pencil holding, you're going to see more

(54:55):
of the opposite where the bullet it just hits with
such speed that the the structure can't take it and
so it blows up versus pinholing through.

Speaker 2 (55:07):
Mm hmm yep.

Speaker 3 (55:11):
But let's let's talk a little bit about that garret,
because I want to come back to your last Fall
hunting season and all the Cup, Match Grade, Cup and
Core killing that you did. What was the shot placement
and what were you aiming for? And then what what
what ended up being a shot placement and did you

(55:34):
try different ones?

Speaker 2 (55:38):
Yeah, so I did. I did some killing with match Grade,
Cup and Core, but that's mostly what I've shot in
the past. This year, I spent more time on Bonded
or e l d x's again, like there's gonna be
some gun nerds out there that are gonna be like
Bonded and eld x's are different. They kind of go

(55:58):
after the same traits though in terms of trying to
like that weight retention type bullet the on the match great, ammo.
It was all like very typical behind the shoulder type
shot placements. I've never been like a real big shoulder
like high shoulder shooter. I know there's guys that like

(56:18):
to go for that for that kind of classic stopping
their tracks, highlight reel shot. But I mean, I've got
video of and I sent this video I think to
both of you guys, but that mule deer I shot
this year with a six to five pretty more at
five hundred and twenty five yards with one hundred and
thirty grand Cup and Core Burger. That bullet hit two

(56:41):
inches behind the front shoulder, did not exit, and it
was about as like, you know, violent of a put
down that you could have right, and that happened on
both him and another mule. Dear that that little creed
more shot this year with match am I mean that

(57:03):
is straight up burger match, Ammo. Did you want to
go into the eld x is one, Yanni?

Speaker 3 (57:13):
Well yeah, yeah, yeah, mostly So that's my question was
where were you shooting him? And so you were shooting
him actually behind the shoulder. That was your your goat,
go to shot placement.

Speaker 2 (57:26):
Yeah, and the reason for that we talked about this
in the video. But I don't think cup and core
bullets need help expanding, right. I think shoulder shot placement
helps a bullet like maybe a copper rip open a
little bit more. But the biggest concern you have when
shooting Cup and Core is meat loss. And as you know, Yanni,
you creep up into that shoulder with a Cup and

(57:48):
Core and you're going to have that conversation with your
buddy on whether or not it's worth packing out that
shoulder right, because it's usually going to be pretty well destroyed.

Speaker 3 (57:58):
Yep, yep. I shot my prom horn last year long
range for me. Think it was five sixty and it
was that it was it was a croco that he
pronounced that soroco sorocco.

Speaker 5 (58:13):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (58:13):
Anyways, we all know how the prong horn has that
perfect where it's white belly fur rides up onto its
side right behind its shoulder and it makes there's a
nice corner and then it streaks across it's belly going
you know, horizontally in that white corner. You can't ask
for a better aiming point. And my bullet hit exactly there,

(58:36):
which I thought was going to be a little bit
behind the shoulder, and I mean it barely clipped both shoulders,
and it might I think he might have been quartering
one way or the other little bit. So it went
through the other shoulder just by a couple of inches
and man on both shoulders. We were having that conversation
like I trimmed out a solid thirty percent of me

(58:57):
and just left it in the field, and uh, yeah,
it's a bummer, but you're gonna you're gonna lose some shoulder.

Speaker 5 (59:06):
Hard not to.

Speaker 2 (59:09):
It's like, I mean, we can get into this, but
there's no perfect bullet, right, and we talked about it
in the video. Depending on the bullet you're shooting, you
really got to pay attention to shot placement because nobody
goes out there to leave, you know, one or two
of the four quarters or like cutting them up and
you know, trying to make burger dog treats out of

(59:32):
a bunch of gelatinous meat. That's not why we're out there.

Speaker 3 (59:36):
No, no, Yeah, it's a bummer. And I will say
that's always been one of the reasons I like shooting
the copper because I feel like I've had even punching
them straight in the scapular or busting the humorous, it
just seems like that zone hole, you know, the area
around the hole is smaller where you have that purple

(01:00:00):
bloodshot meat, and you just end up doing a lot less,
a lot less trimming your yields a little bit higher.

Speaker 2 (01:00:08):
Yeah, yeah, and uh, I guess to kind of dive
into shot placement then for the bonded bullets that I
was hunting with this year, I crept a little bit
more into that shoulder understanding the weight retention aspects of it, man,
I'll just get into I know I already like jumped

(01:00:31):
the gun and started talking about this. But in every
case that six or five PRC like, the bullet placements
were awesome and I can't claim all of them. Dan
used it for two animals, my wife used my rifle
for a couple of animals. A buddy of mine used
my rifle for an animal. The shot placements were all

(01:00:53):
pretty good, and all the animals ended up dying. They
just all ran off the ways and not like I
got hit by a bullet and now I'm gonna run,
but just like, look at your buddy and go did
you hit it? And in one case, I think, what's scared?
And I know this is a this is one data point.

(01:01:18):
But what had me transition over to the cup and
core again was a friend of mine with my PRC
shot a cow elk not extreme range. I think she
was at like right around four to twenty five or
something like. For that gun and bullet set up is
very achievable. When he shot her, the that cow immediately

(01:01:41):
went behind a tree to where we couldn't see her anymore.
We waited a long time. Which bullet was the hunting
a long time. This was the eld X. She went
behind a tree. We could tell she was standing, but
the other cows are just kind of staring at her
right like then know what to do? I think it
was the lead cow waited long enough where I told

(01:02:03):
my buddy like, listen, I'm going I've got an elk
tag as well, give me my rifle. I'm going to
shoot another elk and then it should get him to
come out onto that hillside where shooting suppressed and at
that range, like they didn't really know where the shot
came from, things like that, And I was like, that
other elk is going to come out, I'll hand you

(01:02:24):
back the rifle, and you know if you hit her.
We literally didn't know at that point, but if you
hit her, you'll at least regardless field to take a
follow up shot. So I did shot a cow typical thing.
She took off running right and my buddy I kind
of yells, He's like, I don't know if you hit it,

(01:02:45):
and he was on glass when I shot. She ended
up running about fifty yards and toppled over. At that point,
the cow that he originally shot handed him back to
the rifle came running out and I yelled, do him.
There's a blood spot on the top of that cow
elk's shoulder, and he could see it through the scope.
The first one that he shot shot her, and that

(01:03:09):
one was perfect placement behind the shoulder, about halfway up.
I mean, it was just like right where you want
to be. The way that she went down, though we
didn't know where that bullet placement was, it looked like
kind of like a high like backbone type shot. The
way that she fell down, we all know, like that
kind of classic like ass first leg, you know, kind
of thing. So we hustled. I'm like, I think you

(01:03:32):
hit her high. Let's get up there. Got up there,
and she was dead when we started gutting her out
pulling back hide. Two things that were strange to me. One,
that first bullet was where like if you were an
archery hunter, everybody gets nervous, right, it's in that kind
of high shoulder void. However, the back was broke, but

(01:03:58):
it wasn't from the second bullet. And the only way
we can figure it is that that when he hit
her with that second bullet, that that spine must have
already been fractured or compromised a little bit. And then
the shock of that second bullet hitting like broke it
all the way right, But it didn't on that first shot,

(01:04:21):
And we were talking about it on the mountain and
we both like, in my opinion, if that first shot
would have been a cup and core, that elk would
have went straight down. Even if it would have just
been a spine like high spine shot, I think it
would have blown up enough where it would have created
terminal damage.

Speaker 3 (01:04:40):
What if he had crept too far forward and punched
the humorous or the bottom of the scapula, do you
think then that it would a cup and cor it'll
go right down.

Speaker 2 (01:04:53):
I still think it would have created enough damage that
it would have stopped it right. And I think that
was my biggest complaint on the Bonded and Eldx's is
that regardless of where they got hit, it seemed like
they just took off and they didn't get present any
other follow up opportunities. And I think, like, look, we

(01:05:15):
always want to have perfect shot placement, but if you've
been hunting long enough, everyone agrees it doesn't always happen.
And I think that that a cup and core would
have at least created enough shock inside that critter where
it would have just stopped there.

Speaker 3 (01:05:31):
Interesting, yeah, because I still get a little bit nervous
about that cup and core that. You know, even if
you did it ten times in a row, right and
it blows up, it stops and they don't go anywhere.
What if it blows up and you have that crazy
ball up where it just all goes diagonally back towards

(01:05:52):
the liver right and into the into the guts, right,
then you're going to have the same same results as
you did with the with the bonded back there.

Speaker 2 (01:06:06):
Yeah. I mean, I think we all agreed in that
video that cup and core was less predictable, yeah, than
the bonded in copper. Like bonded and copper kept a
pretty straight line. The only predictable thing about cup and
core is it generally created a lot of damage and
shock within the gel. And what was reassuring as I

(01:06:29):
went back and watched that video through hunting season is, yeah,
the amount of yaw or you know, whatever you want
to call it from that cup and core coming apart,
not in a very concentric way, like it kind of
just went all over the place. It's still got decent
amount of penetration regardless of distance because it just it didn't.

(01:06:50):
It came apart more or less depending on the distance,
and so we were still seeing. I mean, eighteen inches
of penetration is more than enough to hit the stuff
that we need to hit.

Speaker 3 (01:07:03):
Yeah, we'll have to do it again and shoot it
through a little bit heavier duty medium.

Speaker 2 (01:07:11):
Yeah, agreed. Yeah, I think, like you know, the hide,
I would love to do it again with the hide
on the front to start the expansion process a little earlier.
I would like to see what a cup and core
does there versus a bonded and then a thicker like plan,
Like let's look at worst case scenarios, Yanni, and do

(01:07:34):
like a big cow scapula or humorous right, like we're
trying to shoot through massive bone. Because I haven't witnessed it,
I've heard about it. I've never witnessed the cup and
core exploding on the outside of a scapula, but we've
all heard about it. Right Where like zero penetration catastrophic
to the hunter anyways, just like nothing bad getting hit,

(01:07:57):
like as far as vitals.

Speaker 3 (01:07:59):
Yeah, Jordan, you ever had any major like misses or
failures from bullets of any kind on Big Game?

Speaker 2 (01:08:08):
Man?

Speaker 1 (01:08:08):
The only thing that really, I hit a bull one
time with a burger with a one forty.

Speaker 4 (01:08:17):
It's just a one forty burger. I'm pretty sure.

Speaker 3 (01:08:20):
Just so everybody's clear, that burger one forty is which
style of bullet.

Speaker 1 (01:08:24):
Cup and corkay yep. So uh yeah, it was. So
I was shooting six five four, I was riding that
five hundred yard mark, and I just I was dialed.
I think I was just dial a click high and
uh I he dumped right in his tracks and I

(01:08:44):
looked for him for two days. Never found any blood,
but I watched him dumping his tracks, and then he
kind of rolled out of a little opening, and I
was running around the hillside trying to get another opening
where I could see him. And then by the time
I got over there, he was he was gone and
I couldn't I could and find him. And then another
one that was with h It wasn't it wasn't the

(01:09:06):
match King, but it was a Sierra bullet and we
shot at Leah shot deer last year about three hundred
yards with the thirty out six, and the weirdest thing happened. Man,
She hit him perfect, like behind the shoulder, midway up,
like you were saying right where you want to be.

Speaker 4 (01:09:24):
That bullet went.

Speaker 1 (01:09:25):
In, hit one one long, and then the only thing
I could see, there's a bullet going straight up through
his spine, Like the bullet hit something and deflected straight up,
and so we got one lung and a spine and
it dropped him and he rolled down the hill out
of sight. Well we go over to him. I mean,

(01:09:48):
I thought the deer was dead on the spot, and
he wasn't, and we just had to put another one
in him.

Speaker 4 (01:09:53):
But that was a weird thing.

Speaker 1 (01:09:56):
That I saw that I can't really explain other than
just things happen sometimes too that you can't explain.

Speaker 3 (01:10:03):
You know, another thing too, We'll have to test, because
it definitely brings it up when you have this conversation
because so many of us like to shoot these lighter calibers.
They're more pleasurable to shoot. We think they get the
job done. But you gotta wonder, hey, if I had
a three thirty caliber magnum, would all of these animals

(01:10:26):
that Garrett saw, you know, run off fifty yards and
still die? Would those have just dirt n apped with
that same shot placement If it was the same bullet
but in a thirty caliber magnum, and it would have
been they would have been moving whatever, two three, one
hundred feet faster a second.

Speaker 2 (01:10:44):
Maybe, Yeah, I think that's man that I thought about
that a lot this year, especially since one of my
hunting buddies the whole time was ragging on me for
shooting a six or five anything. But what I fall
back to, Yanni, was the year before that, I used

(01:11:04):
my little sick Cross because it was my competition rifle, right,
and I was so comfortable with it. I used it
for everything. It killed everything except for my moose slash
two years ago. So mountain go, multiple elk, multiple deer,
multiple antelope, right, all of them did what I would

(01:11:24):
hope would happen when a bullet hits them, right, Like,
they pretty much didn't take another step. Maybe they took
a couple of steps, but like very labored. And so
when I went to a six or five PRC, same diameter.
But you know, we all know that the velocity and
energy difference is in a PRC versus a creepy I was, okay,

(01:11:48):
a PRC is just is a faster right, Like when
you break it down, it's a faster six or five
bullet coming out of the tube right, so we know
we can create more energy more rapid. I think it would.
You can go onto any forum if you want a
good afternoon, type in elk hunting with a six to
five creed more and watch folks yell at each other

(01:12:10):
for a long time. Six five PRC is considered a
little bit more of your like big game hunting cartridge,
or people are more comfortable with it. I was expecting
to see more drastic results in the creed more because
of that, But by changing the bullets that I was shooting,
I saw less drastic kills than I saw my creed more.

(01:12:34):
So that begs the question, Yanni, I mean, what are
you shooting this fall?

Speaker 3 (01:12:40):
This year, I'm gonna shoot the seven Mickey mouse for
the first time ever. The reason that I called the
seven seven Mickey mouse, it's the seven millimeter Remington Magnum
is the actual name of the cartridge, but it was
said to be so in our elk camp when I
was coming up in I think I started guiding in

(01:13:01):
two thousand ninety nine or two thousand and it was
just known like if a guy showed up with a
seven milimeter rembag, everybody was like I don't want to
got him that Elk's gonna get away, That Elk's gonna
get away. I mean, it was just known, and it
was pure coincidence that there had been, you know, more

(01:13:21):
failures with that gun than others, and the guides there
were just anti the seven millimeters, so they called it
the seven mickey mouse because it just wasn't enough gun, right,
everybody wanted to be if in that camp at that time,
if if the client said, hey, I'm gonna buy any rifle,
all the guides would have said, well, come with a

(01:13:41):
three hundred weather be with one hundred and eighty grainers
or two hundred grainers loaded for it.

Speaker 5 (01:13:46):
That was like the preferred Elk rifle. And you can't
argue with it.

Speaker 3 (01:13:51):
It's it's great, but I feel like these days so
I had never ever messed with a seven millimeter and
this year got a couple of new rifles and decided
to get them both in that cartridge and just really
get some personal experience with that cartridge. And I think
that with today's you know, that was twenty years ago,

(01:14:14):
so the bullets were getting better, you know.

Speaker 5 (01:14:17):
I think that.

Speaker 3 (01:14:19):
Noazaor's partition was around the Acubon was just showing up
around then. But there's still plenty of core locks coming
through the camp. So now you know I can I'm
sure I can shoot a bunch of quality bullets with
that set of meal meter and I'll have great success.
The nice thing now that I think a big change

(01:14:40):
in what we're doing and how we're shooting these guns
and what's going to come a factor that's going to
come into play more and more. Is that a reason
that nobody wanted to shoot with the three hundred weather
be back in the day, or a three hundred win
mag whatever pick your poison was because it was punishing.

(01:15:00):
Nobody wanted to sit at the bench and dial it in.
And then you know, half the people wound up with
scope marks between their eyes when they did shoot an
elk with it. But now with suppressors becoming more and
more available or people at least getting them, they still
seem like it's a pain in the butt to get one.
It's taken eight or nine months, maybe more, but that's

(01:15:21):
a it's a completely different experience now to shoot a
magnum rifle when you can suppress it and it's not
you know, it just doesn't beat you up anymore, So
why not pound them if you're not pounding yourself.

Speaker 5 (01:15:35):
That's what I say.

Speaker 2 (01:15:36):
Yeah, I feel like your listener question at the beginning
of this of like the perfect caliber or what speed
do I need to shoot? I would say, like, start
with the gun that you can shoot right, Like you
put somebody behind a suppressed or muzzle break six or
five creed more and they're gonna end up being a

(01:15:56):
good shot. They're not afraid of it. They can watch
first round, which is a big deal in the field.
Like we've learned, we've translated the comp world to hunting.
Calling your own impact is a big thing. And then
work your way to that happy medium of something that
has the knockdown right, but you're not afraid to shoot it.

(01:16:17):
And I think like that's where some of these prcs
are taking off or seven people are coming back to
a seven RAM or to eighty aclee right where they
have that knockdown. But because of modern tech and the
fact that we're not trying to build six pound guns
all the time, like you're you're fine sitting behind it
and taking to the range and dumping a bunch of ammo.

Speaker 5 (01:16:41):
Yep.

Speaker 2 (01:16:43):
So knowing Yan knowing that. Uh, we're like, you know,
we're gonna be working with SICK this year as far
as bullet tight because we don't know the names of
all the bullets yet, but as far as bullet type,
what are you going to be shooting?

Speaker 5 (01:17:00):
Uh?

Speaker 3 (01:17:01):
Well, we did hear through the grapevine that there's a
strong possibility that they're going to be loading up some
barns under the SIG brand, So I will probably shoot
that as well as whatever their bonded bullet is. Yeah, well,

(01:17:24):
I gotta go with I don't know, maybe maybe I'll
have all three. Maybe I should just say I'll do
I'll try all three and and uh yeah, because I
have a pretty good mule deer tag that that's probably
the most high pressure uh you know hunt of the
year with a rifle at least, and uh, I probably

(01:17:49):
go go bond it there. I don't know, but I like, again,
for me, in my personal experience, I've had uh, great
luck with copper barnes, usually some of the trophy copper
from Federal, but great luck with those bullets. Over the years,
I have noticed that at distance, does the animal flip

(01:18:13):
right over at three point fifty?

Speaker 5 (01:18:15):
Nope?

Speaker 3 (01:18:16):
You know, even I think I shot a bull out
quartering away with the probably a three hundred short MAGS,
but I was shooting at that time. I was probably
gone down to a one to sixty five copper and
it slowed him down to where I pretty much could
walk up to within fifty yards of him and then
shoot him again. But he was certainly not dead at

(01:18:37):
that first shot three and fifty yards with that copper bullet.
So yes, just got to keep that kind of stuff
in mind. But yeah, I've got confidence in all those bullets.
I've actually trying to think I've ever had a full
on failure with a bullet, any kind of bullet, and

(01:18:58):
like not recovered the animal one doesn't come to mind.
I feel like they missed.

Speaker 2 (01:19:05):
It's rare. Yeah, yeah, I feel like that's rare. Man,
Like they stick out in our minds because they're always
like the biggest elkor gear you've ever seen in your life.
But I think it's especially today, like it's pretty rare.
And I think that you're like I saw your post
the other day. I think you're doing it right on
testing accuracy out of your gun too, because I think

(01:19:27):
like that should maybe be one of the first steps
in choosing your bullet is what does your gun like?
You know, like there's realities on when you get into
tangent its can't like bullet shapes right, and like what
does your gun want to shoot? We all know, like
the burger match stuff that like the classic. I think

(01:19:48):
it's the secant like the burger shape bullet is more
susceptible to seating depth issues and accuracy issues. However, it's
usually higher BC's and if you're loading you can get
a lot of accuracy out of them. But if you're
buying amo off the shelf, that like tangent style bullet

(01:20:12):
like out of the box is usually going to do
pretty dang good. But like starting with the accuracy and
what your gun likes, and then if it's all things
the same, then start playing around with the type of
bullet you're gonna shoot.

Speaker 3 (01:20:26):
Yeah exactly, because yeah, as you've discussed, we're kind of
beating a dead horse at this point. But I would
if I even if I just had three different types,
and but one is shooting an inch and the other
ones are shooting two inch, I'm probably gonna go with
the one that's shooting the inch, because I just I'm
just gonna be confident with that when I pull the trigger,

(01:20:48):
the bullet's going right where I'm aiming. And you said
earlier shot placement is king.

Speaker 2 (01:20:56):
Yeah. Yeah, they're all gonna kill it if you double
lung an elk right, Yeah, gonna die.

Speaker 5 (01:21:03):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:21:04):
And I'm you know, just speaking a shot placement. I
am definitely not. The more and more I you know,
I did those videos with the ranch Ferry where we
dissected the nil guy and the hogs, and man, the
more you do that kind of stuff, you realize how
far forward those vitals are. And when you actually go
say you look at that crease to the shoulder and

(01:21:26):
then say, oh, I'm gonna shoot two ribs back or
three ribs back. Man, on a lot of animals, you
are clipping the back of the lungs on that shot.
You are not center punching the lungs if you're two
or three ribs back.

Speaker 5 (01:21:37):
I don't think so.

Speaker 3 (01:21:39):
And so when I'm teaching, now mine oldest is going
to try to kill her first year. This year, it's
gonna be straight up the leg. Obviously, this is perfectly broadside.
You know, it changes if it's quartering away or two.
But if it's perfectly broadside. It's gonna be straight up
the leg. I'm gonna literally have her use you know,

(01:22:01):
line up your your vertical cross hair with that front
leg and and then go center mask with the horizontal
cross hair. But I'd rather punch that shoulder and I
have a confidence again and if I'm shooting, you know,
the two bullets, two types of bullets, I like to
shoot that that's going to go right through there and
uh and get the job done. Yeah, I just feel

(01:22:23):
like creeping back there. You're I don't know, kind of
kind of asking for it.

Speaker 2 (01:22:29):
Yeah, you're on the spectrum for sure. I think for
that bullet placement, I only get to come on your podcast.
Well was the first time, so I have a lot
of a gender items please, But I would say I
would say like as far as that bullet placement goes, like,
there's a couple of things I would stress you hit
it and I'm just gonna say it again, like finding

(01:22:51):
a bullet that your gun likes. But when you're testing AMMO,
A couple of things that that people should really consider
is standard deviation in that AMMO in terms of velocity. Right,
So if you have access to a chronograph of some kind,
whether it's a lab radar or what's the one that

(01:23:11):
hooks on the end of your barrel, is a meg
speed or something like that?

Speaker 3 (01:23:14):
Did you better explain you better explain that the standard
deviation thing?

Speaker 2 (01:23:21):
Yeah. So basically what standard deviation is is like looking
at how much variation there is in your speed from
bullet or from cartridge to cartridge. Right, so if I
grab a box of AMMO, what's that that range and
you're going to hear people tell you like different tolerances

(01:23:44):
or the other way to look at is extreme spread.
But what they think is good or not I would say,
like a standard deviation sub Some people will say sub twenty.
I'd say, like sub fifteen is okay. I feel like
in match stuff, we're looking for sub ten a big

(01:24:05):
shot out I mean the out of the box SIGs
match AMMO is like running like I'm getting an average
of seven and eight feet per second standard deviation, which
is insane. So test that if you don't have access
to a chronograph. The best way to do it, like,
because I know that when people think accuracy, they shoot

(01:24:27):
one hundred yard groups like you did the other day, Yannie,
and then they're like, oh, that's my bullet. Push it
out a little further, put paper out further at a
range where you're comfortable and you're competent in I'm not
saying like eight hundred yards, but something where you feel
like as a shooter, you can give it a good test,
say three hundred yards and test those groups, because if

(01:24:49):
you don't have access to a chronograph, that's going to
tell you a lot more than what one hundred yards is, right, Like,
you're going to see that string start changing when you
test those bullets. Go buy as many as you can
afford with the same lot number stamped on the back
of it. So if you went to Sportsman's Warehouse and

(01:25:10):
bought some bullets, like, go back there that day and
buy as many as you can afford that have that
same lot stamp on there. So you're getting the same
consistent well everything in terms of like neck tension, feet
per second. They're using the same brass, Like not all
brass is created equal, but then you're just getting going

(01:25:33):
to have a more consistent load when you go out
into the field year over year.

Speaker 3 (01:25:37):
Do you feel like there's a minimum a distance where
kind of all this stuff that you just said starting
with you know, anything beyond just shooting a nice three
shot group at one hundred yards. Well, like if I'm like, well,
you know what, Garrett, I only shoot three hundred yards
completely max, because just that's where I just don't shoot.

(01:26:01):
Or the gun that I'm using, you know it won't
perform past that because it would you say, you know what,
then don't worry about that if that's it? Or is
there like a minimum distance where you'd say, hey, if
you're gonna shoot this far or farther, then you should
start worrying about this stuff.

Speaker 2 (01:26:19):
I think you should worry about it regardless. Man. But Adam,
whatever you like, we've done this drill before, Yanni, whatever,
you think your max range is right, start testing those
group size Like you're not going to see a huge

(01:26:39):
change in placement with standard deviations inside three hundred yards, right,
like you're gonna hit a pie plate size thing or
you know, the vitals inside three hundred yards. But it's
still like we've harped on shot placements so much like

(01:27:00):
let's take okay, let's let's say that you, because of
AMMO choice, you've got a gun that is shooting a
two minute group at range right, like at three hundred yards,
so that's a six inch group in which most people
would be like, oh, that's the lungs of a deer,

(01:27:22):
all right, But now you have a little bit of wind,
or you misranged it a little bit right, or the
environmentals are a little different, like and all of a
sudden that starts to expand outside of a perfect medium
you're hunting. Your heart rate is up, Like I think,
even if you're shooting inside three hundred yards, you should
pay attention to be like the most lethal you can

(01:27:43):
on shot placement because there's so many external factors.

Speaker 3 (01:27:48):
Yeah, that's a good that's a very very good point.
I'd add to that that it's it's not gonna hurt
you to go shoot some more. That's one benefit of
messing around with all this stuff. Even if you end
up in the exact same place you're at right now,
the same load, same bullet, same whatever. If you go

(01:28:11):
on this journey and shoot a couple hundred rounds between
now and hunting season and mess around different stuff, try
it that time on your rifle, on your trigger, it's
gonna be nothing but beneficial. And too many of us
take you know, we sput so much time into shooting
their bows all the time, and then we're like, I'll
just pick up the rifle and go crack something. Well,

(01:28:32):
it's that's a stupid way to look at it. Man.

Speaker 5 (01:28:35):
A lot of.

Speaker 3 (01:28:36):
Opportunities are missed because people don't put enough effort into
practicing with their rifles.

Speaker 2 (01:28:45):
Yeah, and man, I'd say, like a gamer thing to
do for folks that are buying AMMO off the shelf.
This like shout out to my buddy Benny Cooley who
gave me insight into this. I can't do it on
the match side of things, as I you say that
I'm shooting factory Ammo. But if you're a hunter, buy

(01:29:05):
that Ammo. If you have access to a reloading press,
bump it by a thousandth throw all your AMMO through
early reloading press and bump it by a thousandth and
what you're going to avoid. And sometimes what is like
the worst case for extreme spread in velocities is getting
what's called a cold weld, right, And if so that

(01:29:28):
AMMO is sat around for any period of time, there's
likelihood that a couple of those projectiles sitting in the
case for that long has created a cold weld, so
you're going to have a pressure spike, and that's where
you like sometimes in you're shooting factory AMMO, you'll have
like one that hits eighty feet per second more than

(01:29:50):
all the others and then it kind of settles back down.
That's usually a cold weld. So even if you have
a buddy that just likes to to reload, or you
have a loading press yourself, find that lot that works
well with your gun, bring it all in and bump
it by a thousandth before going out into the field,
and you're likely going to see a drastic improvement in

(01:30:13):
accuracy and extreme spread and velocities.

Speaker 3 (01:30:16):
Yeah, just talking about the standard deviation. Garret was talking
about a post that I made on the old Instagram
that's Yiannis underscore pu tell us where we tested through
that seven mickey mouse. We tested the barns. I think
it wasn't a Barnes. I think it was wasn't it.
I think it was just a federal trophy copper, wasn't it?

Speaker 5 (01:30:38):
Garrett?

Speaker 3 (01:30:39):
Yeah, these are all federal loaded rounds. When was there
trophy bonded and one was the acubond loaded in there
and the trophy bonded had the highest standard deviation of
twenty three feet. The accubonts were next at twenty one,
and then the copper was the least at thirteen. So yeah,

(01:31:07):
quite the difference. And you know, twenty three feet a
second seems like a lot, yeah, man.

Speaker 2 (01:31:15):
And I think like neck tension is one of your
biggest things you're dealing with there, and it to your
point earlier, inside three hundred yards, you're gonna notice it.
Probably not, but you start reaching out and it shows itself,
and we don't want it to show itself when we're
out trying to kill critters. And then the other thing

(01:31:36):
i'd say is when you find that round, oh man, Yanni.
We do this a lot when we go to the range, Like,
don't make your max range theoretical at that point because
if you're if you're shooting a copper bullet or a
bonded bullet, well all of them where you're like, you're

(01:31:58):
relying on hitting that spot based off the bullets design
and how it's going to react. Go to the range
and cold shoot like the longest distance you would well,
you'd ever shoot and lay down and do it like
first round. If you don't hit a first round impact.
You need to like drastically reassess what that max range
is regardless of what your ballistic.

Speaker 3 (01:32:19):
She says, Yep, yeah, you're yeah if you if you can't,
you can't. Yeah, not enough of us do that for sure.
I mean, because you only get one chance that well,
that's not true. I mean, I guess you could sit
around for twenty minutes and let those let those barrels
cool cool down. But it's hard to replicate it, right
because because even if you wait twenty minutes and shoot again,

(01:32:39):
then you've sort of gotten comfortable, right, you're more in
the in the shooting mindset. But that you know, practicing
those cold board first shots and seeing what you can
do with that, that should definitely be your your lit
miss as to how far you can shoot.

Speaker 2 (01:32:58):
Yeah, I mean it's like wind calls, right, your second
shot at that target, you've likely gained the wind a
little bit or you understand this last match we went through,
there was a stage I was happy to see. We
got to lay down and shoot targets because they usually
through NRL Hunter like you're doing a lot of tripod

(01:33:18):
off rocks and stuff, and came around the corner running
up the hill for this stage and got to lay
down these There was four targets out there between i'd
say like five fifty and four hundred yards. I missed
all of them but one, and I thought that I
would at that point become the world's worst shooter. I

(01:33:40):
watched my friend Benny Cooley shoot after that, who is
a great shooter. He did the exact same thing. And
it's a reset for you, right, because we had very
variable winds going through there. The heat was picking up,
it was pushing up the hillside, and you had a
series I got to walk a series of you know,

(01:34:01):
half a dozen really good shooters come in there and
miss a four hundred yard target repeatedly because we couldn't
get the environmentals dialed in even after missing shots next
to that steal. So I think it's a reset on
you're shooting across three canyons or a couple of koolies,
and you're in the field and you have a ten

(01:34:21):
mile an hour, you know, ten o'clock wind. That changes
the game a lot.

Speaker 5 (01:34:28):
Yeah, a whole bunch, all right.

Speaker 3 (01:34:31):
Anything we didn't cover off on that you still want
to plug in that you have on your little agenda
sheet Garrett.

Speaker 2 (01:34:38):
No, man, that was that was about? You know, I
was going to talk a little bit about like bullet
selection in terms of the different types of ojives, But
you know, I feel like that could be like a
totally different podcast.

Speaker 3 (01:34:49):
Yeah, we can save ojives and cats for for another episode. Yeah,
all right, Well, thanks for listening to everybody. I hope
it was educational to you and entertaining as well. Don't
forget sign up for a chance to win three thousand
bucks an awesome hunting gear, and I'll help you pick

(01:35:11):
it out if you're the winner. Ends May twenty first.
If you're the winner, you'll find out May twenty second.
Send your questions to gear talk at themedia dot com.
You can always DM Jordan and I on our respective
Instagram handles, although I tell you it's a lot harder
for me. I only get in there once a week,
so don't expect a quick reply there. I prefer gear

(01:35:34):
talk at the medeater dot com. Join anything else you
want to add.

Speaker 1 (01:35:39):
No, man, this one this was great. I really enjoyed it.
Thanks for hopping on, Garrett.

Speaker 2 (01:35:44):
Yeah, thank you.

Speaker 3 (01:35:45):
Well, check in after the fall and see see how
everybody's performance.

Speaker 5 (01:35:51):
How are their Bullets performed This Fall again. Sound good, yeah,
I love it.

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Ep. 16: All About Bullets with Garrett Long

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Ep. 16: All About Bullets with Garrett Long

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