May 13, 2025 • 24 mins
Hosts Merryn Somerset Webb and John Stepek continue their mini-series on UK housing, with a focus on conveyance. In this context, that means navigating the paperwork and legal requirements involved in the home-buying process, from making an offer to receiving the keys.
They speak with Laura Conduit, a specialist property solicitor and partner at Farrer and Co LLP. The trio discuss how to balance price and value when paying for a conveyancer, common stumbling blocks that can derail a sale and why conveyance on a flat can be more expensive than a house.
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Speaker 1 (00:02):
Bloomberg Audio Studios, Podcasts, radio news.
Speaker 2 (00:18):
Welcome to Meron Talks Your Money, the personal finance edition
of Merin Talks Money. In these bonus podcasts, we talk
about the best strategies for making the most out of
your money. I'm Merin Sumset Web and with me today
as ever is senior reporter and author of the Money
Distilled newsletter, John Stevig. Hi, John, Hi'm okay. So we
are carrying on with our housing mini series. Our listeners
(00:40):
by now are so expert on this whole thing. But
there is one thing that we haven't talked about yet,
and yes, it's the ADMIN. And if there's one thing
that we really hate on Merin Talk's money. Okay, let's
be honest. One thing that I really hate it is admin.
So this is all about navigating the maze of paperwork,
the legal checks and all the deadlines. And this is
where conveyancing comes in. It's a legal process that actually
(01:03):
gets you from making an offer on a house to
owning the thing at the end of the deal. And
to discuss this, we are joined by Laura Condriit, the
head of property at Pharao Own Company. She joined the
company in twenty thirteen and she specializes in residential property
sales and purchases in prime and super prime London as
well as Country has this, So that's basically everything. I
don't know why I started with the specifications. Really good
(01:26):
to have you with us, Laura, thank you so much.
Speaker 3 (01:28):
Thank you both so much for having me.
Speaker 2 (01:31):
So let's start right at the beginning. When I was
looking this up briefly before I started, I see that
you need either a conveyancer or a conveyancing solicitor. Are
these the same thing?
Speaker 3 (01:42):
Yes and no. So it's it's different legal qualifications, but
the role in the process is exactly the same in
terms of that's the person you go to, as you say,
sometimes before the offer point, because sometimes we support clients
in making that offer, but all the way through to
completion of the the sale or purchase and registration at
the land industry.
Speaker 2 (02:02):
Okay, So who has more qualifications and therefore is more expensive?
A conveyancing solicitor or a convey.
Speaker 3 (02:09):
A solicitor is likely to be more expensive, but different
companies staff in different ways. But you don't want cheap
in a slister or a convencer. Oh, I don't know.
Speaker 2 (02:20):
We always want cheap before we want value or do
we want value? Well, I tell you what, as we've
started down at the grubby end of the process, what
does it cost in general to hire because we're not
going to hire a slister because you told us to.
How does it cost to hire a good slister to
take us through this process? Does it depend on what
kind of house we're buying, Does it depend on the size,
Does it depend on whether it's land or not?
Speaker 3 (02:42):
All of those things for us are factored in, So
we would look at whether it's new build, whether it's listed.
As you say this, you know, are we buying two
hundred acres or are we just buying a sort of
terrace house in a sort of relatively vanilla street where
nothing's been done to the house for thirty years. That
for us gives us a steer on the amount of
our time it's going to involve, and therefore, you know
(03:05):
the cost of the deal. Different lawyers price in different ways.
A high street convencer is likely to have a fixed
fee scale that pretty much just links to the value
of the property. You want a number, I.
Speaker 2 (03:18):
So want a number, you know, because what we're trying
to do here or as we're trying to help people
understand exactly how much money they need up from, because
people always think about this in terms of just their deposit.
But as we've discussed now over all this time, you
know it's not just your deposit. It's your stamp duty,
it's maybe your buying agency, as all these legal fees,
its registration fees, its all sorts of things. So yes,
(03:40):
do I need a number, I need a number.
Speaker 3 (03:42):
You'll very well have a number. All lawyers have this
on their websites because we have pricing transparency, so you
will find any company doing convincing work, we'll have this
information on the website freely available to see. The shortest
word in answering, that is to say, our fees for
a sale or purchase at the lower complexity, lower value
and start from five thousand plus th eighty and disbursements.
Speaker 2 (04:03):
Yeah okay, so it's actually it's quite a chunk once
you've gone through all the effort of finding a place,
figuring it, stap duty, the deposit, etcetera. This is the
big barrier to buying all these cash payments up front.
Speaker 3 (04:16):
You would find people doing it for a lot less
you would you would find firms doing it for less,
they're likely to answer the phone more slowly, reply to
emails more slowly, et cetera. If you want to do
a sort of ten working day purchase, you need to
come to a proper firm that's set up to do
that with that speed and has capacity to take it on.
But you could probably get someone to do it. And
I'm going to guess now fifteen hundred quid plus fat
might be what you pay someone to take three months
(04:38):
to do your convincing on something that doesn't need that
level of sort of speed and service.
Speaker 2 (04:43):
Yeah, all right, I think we're all going the hint.
Speaker 3 (04:48):
And nothing if not subtle.
Speaker 4 (04:51):
Just on this topic. One thing I did want task
I was going to ask later but as well Tom,
but might need to just know I've previously used and
the pretty simple part sees that I've had for my
who sees over the years, and I have used online
conveniences and they've ice have been like, okay, they've been fine.
What are the potential difficulties if you go down that route?
(05:14):
Because I always thought, right, okay, so this has been okay,
and I would recommend it to someone. But at the
same time, have I just got lucky or does it
just depend on the quality of the solicitor is involved.
Speaker 3 (05:26):
The thing with property is it's not just about property,
it's about people. And particularly if you're in a chain
of transactions, or if you're dealing with something at the
sort of ultra network end and you're dealing with egos
and people's competing interests, you need a really good estate
agent to manage all of that. If you're not going
to have solicitors who are talking and helping to sort
(05:48):
of ionize those guests, well, someone changing in completion days
or changing whether the curtains are included or not. That
kind of thing can completely unravel a transaction when it shouldn't.
And if you haven't got people community kating really openly
and picking up the phone and being human about things,
then you could unravel a deal that doesn't need to
be unraveled in terms of the actual due diligence. I mean,
(06:12):
you've got indempty insurance at the end of the day,
So if you're not too worried about having to rely
on that, then it sort of doesn't matter who he is.
And all firms have all firms have to carry three
million pounds, so as long as your properties under three
million pounds, then.
Speaker 2 (06:27):
You should be fine. Oh John will be worried about that. Laura,
tell you, what would you mind just talking us through
the things that you do that the legal steps involved here,
and then as a follow up question, I'd love it
if you would explain what searchers actually are. People always going, well,
it's the searchers, it's the searchers. What be doing with searches?
(06:49):
The searchers take forever. It's a six week business to
do the searches, and I'm honest with have no idea
what they mean. I was speaking to one of my
colleagues here who is using another firm for her convincing,
and I don't think she understands half of what her
lawyer has said to her, which is a shame because
she's paying for a service where she should understand what's happening.
Speaker 3 (07:09):
So I feel where you're coming from. So let's go
with the purchase rather than the sale then, because then
we can do about So when a client instructs us,
we obviously deal with KYC on boarding. We have to
comply with anti money laundering regulations in the same way
that sorry, I'm going.
Speaker 2 (07:24):
To interrupt you very briefly just because not everybody is
in our world.
Speaker 3 (07:28):
Customer your client, yeah, client, yeah, no problem. So that's
in very basic terms, if you're a really normal, lovely
couple called mister and missus Smith who have made your
money by going out to work, then it's providing me
with a certified copy of your passport and a proof
of address and some information about where you have made
your wealth in general and where you've made the funds
(07:50):
that you're using towards the purchase that cash element if
you mean, you'vet a mortgage for some of it, So
dealing with.
Speaker 2 (07:55):
That, it's an anti money laundering yeah, absolutely absolutely, In
these statage, it's have to be involved in that process
as well.
Speaker 3 (08:02):
Some of them will follow their own and some of
them will piggyback on the work that the lawyer has
done there and ask us to share it. People are
pretty good now a sort of expecting that and going
through the motions. Overseas, buyers can still be a little
bit reluctant to be as open as domestic people. I
think we've just had the rules for longer and people
are more more used to it in twenty twenty five. Okay,
(08:24):
so we're onboarded the next thing that we will do
is talk to a client about a survey, because we
want to get the wheels in motion with making sure
that they are having a physical survey of the property
to make sure that there are no issues that you know,
are they going to have to allow in their budgeting
for a new roof in the next five years, Is
there any damp, Is there anything sort of horrendous going on?
(08:46):
What we quite like is having a surveyor who's also
going to have a good look and be our eyes
and ears on the ground as to compliance with planning
and buildings regulations. So if the property has been extended,
has it actually been built as per the permitted extension,
or did something go away and get a planning permission
and then just build something twice as big or decide
(09:08):
that the window would look better as a door halfway
through building that. So we work hand in hand with
the surveyor on looking at the physical property both from
a defects point of view, but also from a regulatory
compliance point of view. So we get that survey booked
in if we can nice and early. At the same time,
we'll put in those searches that you were asking about.
(09:30):
The most important one of those is the local authority search,
and the reason it's the most important is because it
could show up the things which could lead us to
say that the property hasn't got good and marketable title,
which means that we wouldn't be signing off on it
as good security for a loan if there's a mortgage,
and we wouldn't be recommending to the client to go
ahead and buy it, which doesn't happen very often, but
(09:51):
it's the local search quite often that we'll throw something
out in that area, whether that's a tree preservation order
where as you say, somebody's ext ended and then they've
decided to just get rid of the tree that was
inconveniently in the way, and there's perhaps some enforcement action
happening about that that we would then see in that search,
or a breach.
Speaker 2 (10:10):
We've got to be more careful.
Speaker 3 (10:13):
There's all kinds of hazards we have to be careful about,
and that local search is the one that historically has
been a real problem in terms of the speed of
the process. Most of the London boroughs now a pretty speedy.
Camden's always been a little bitter, but I think they've
started to get their act together a little bit more
in recent years, and then up and down the country
(10:36):
it varies, and you'll have periods of time where the
local authority are slow at turning around those searches because
people are on holiday or are the leave unexpectedly and
they don't have the human physical capital to fulfill the
search requests, and then the search will take longer. So
that's where that suggestion has come from, that the search
is the searches, but most of them are sort of
(10:58):
ten working days now, some aer five working days. They've
all digitalized quite a lot, so when they're pulling together
the information to answer that set of inquiries that comprise
that search, a lot of that information now is electronic
and pull through, whereas it used to be a very
manual process. And then there's other searches, so there's a drainage,
water search, flood search, chance or search. I don't think
(11:19):
you've got the time for that today.
Speaker 2 (11:21):
And who are all these done with? If you're doing
a flood search again, is that done with the local
authority who.
Speaker 3 (11:26):
Did talk to? Every law firm has a centralized provider,
there's competing providers and they go off and then and
then get those searches in from the relevant organizations to
provide them. So for a drainage of water search in London,
it's Thames Water that the information comes from, for example,
than the local authority. It will depend on which London
borough you're in, et cetera.
Speaker 2 (11:48):
Okay, and a chance or search. We do have time
because I'm thinking to myself that this is connected that
awful period about I can't remember, what about ten years
ago when suddenly all sorts of people living in old
vicarages discovered that they were personally liable for repairing the
roof of their local church. Is that what we're talking about, Yeah.
Speaker 3 (12:08):
We are. In twenty thirteen, there was a requirement that
if the churches had a chance or liability, which is,
as you say, the responsibility for repairs that is incumbent
on surrounding residents, that they take shareish and registered at
the land Registry or forever hold their peace. And so
if a property has been conveyed, it's been transferred for
(12:31):
consideration i e. Payment since that date, then you're fine
on chancel. You don't need to worry about chancel because
it's either on the land registry title or you can't
be held responsible for it. If the property haven't changed
hands since twenty thirteen, then you still need to carry
out that chancel search and see if there's a liability there.
In short, there's also this amazing thing called indemnity insurance
(12:54):
that people then take out to just paper over the cracks.
Speaker 4 (12:57):
I don't remember. I do remember that to buy chancel.
And as for one of the properties that we bought,
I think I was into. Yeah, it was an expensive
but it was so.
Speaker 3 (13:07):
It still does.
Speaker 4 (13:10):
Haven't it explained to you? There wasn't a chart within
like viewing.
Speaker 3 (13:15):
Some of them had had sort of quite wide ranging
parishes that they were responsible for.
Speaker 2 (13:21):
What about things like disputes with neighbors and that kind
of thing. Does that come into the search of Like
if you had a long gooing dispute with your neighbor
over the headge or over their kid thaying the drums
too loud.
Speaker 3 (13:31):
That forms part of the sales pack that the sellers
slister will will pull together. So this the seller what
we sent standard form of inquiries and that covers all
of those things, disputes, complaints, It gives details of where
the stopcock is in the house, whether any alterations have
been carried out. You know, it's sort of a sort
of white Japanese not weird. All kinds of weird and
(13:52):
wonderful things are covered by those standard inquiries. If that
form were completed properly by sellers, and I don't blame
the seller, say, because warm filling is a really hard
thing to do. I hate admin in my personal life
there and you and I have that in common.
Speaker 2 (14:07):
Ye, so hard lying.
Speaker 3 (14:09):
So my working life. No, no, no, no, we don't
do that. We definitely don't want to be doing that.
But if the seller and their lawyer took five minutes
to jump on a call and just skim through that
form before sending it off to the buyer's lawyers, then
all of the questions that the seller hasn't quite answered
fully enough, or where they've said works have been done
that the buyer's lawyer is then going to say, great,
(14:30):
where's the certificate for those electrical works or those gas
works please? Or the building rates sign off for that
whopping great extension that you've just told me you've built.
That might speed the process along a bit. So there's
a little bit on the seller preparation side where if
you've got a really great sales pack prepared for you,
then you don't need to ask as many follow up inquiries.
(14:53):
So all of that standard information is given to you.
The lawyer then will review it, but you need to
ask some follow up inquiries, and that will be stuff
that's come out of the search results, stuff that's come
out of those standard replies to inquiries, things that the
surveyor has asked to be checked, and you then ask
any necessary additional inquiries. That back and forth is where
the process can then either go really smoothly or take
(15:16):
quite a long time to work through.
Speaker 2 (15:18):
And does this all work the same with the flatters?
With the house, it's got to be more complicated. Actually
it is more complicated and then more expensive. So with
a lease or flat, you obviously have a separate landlord,
usually with managing agents, depending on whether you're in a
big block or a sort of you know, Mazinet type
house divided up scenario, and you will get some additional
(15:42):
information as part of that sales pack from the managing
agents for the building. So again there's a standard form
with replies to inquiries that the managing agents fill in
that says how much the service charges, gives you a
copy of the accounts tells you whether there's any service charge.
Arrears gives you the Buildings Insurance a whole swathe of
information about that sort of physical setup of the building,
(16:03):
the common parts, the community garden, if there is one
facilities in the building, et cetera. So that's just more
information for us to wade through.
Speaker 3 (16:12):
And check that it's satisfactory and complete and again if
we need to, and usually with the leasehold there are
follow up questions on that area as well.
Speaker 4 (16:21):
Obviously you've seen an awful lot of properties and you've
got a lawyer expertise, So as an individual and as
maybe a warning if us stained by us, is it
anything that consistently crops up as an aid flag and
that makes you say, this is something you need to
be aware of that maybe a normal civilian would not
be awad of.
Speaker 3 (16:40):
Yeah, with apartments all the time, it's pets, wood flooring
and alterations.
Speaker 5 (16:45):
Wood flooring, yeah, yeah, yeah, you know what someone living
above you with wood flooring and so most buildings that
you're not allowed to have it, right, but then people
put it in against the rule through the building and
it's gonna be pulled up and you got to put
in carpets you bought there's great, you know warehouse dial
apartment with wooden floors and big windows, and then you
find you got to go out and get some you know,
(17:06):
inflammable nylon carpet to put the dog.
Speaker 3 (17:10):
I couldn't have put it better.
Speaker 2 (17:13):
Oh that's truly okay to me.
Speaker 4 (17:16):
That's a good one.
Speaker 3 (17:17):
Yeah, pets flooring and alterations. The pets one is such
a thing these days. People just assume they're going to
be able to have their dog in their apartment, and
they also leap to conclusions when a flatteres share a freehold,
they assume that there aren't going to be any rules
or regulations that apply to their flats as they're buying
to a freehold. So quite often the dog only the
(17:38):
dog's existence only emerges when you're some way down the process.
Agents are getting much much better I think, at asking
these questions upfront and when somebody's looking at making an
offer on a flat, finding out whether it's a building
that's dog friendly or not, and that just comes down
to the wording in the lease and whether there's an
absolute restriction or whether there's a we'll let your dog
in if we have a reference for the dog. I mean,
(17:59):
I have pet applications where you're literally getting written references
for the behavior of the animal and you're sending photos
and its name and an Instagram account.
Speaker 2 (18:08):
In one case, Wow, yeah, this is so No, this
is so Manhattan. You wouldn't have expect it.
Speaker 4 (18:18):
Who is it that is setting visuals? Because if you've
got a share of the freehold, then you are the freeholder,
So who enforces that?
Speaker 3 (18:26):
So normally, when you're in a share of freehold building,
say there are twenty flats in the building, there's a
company then that owns the building, and you each have
a share in that company. The directors of the company,
their obligation is to enforce the landlord terms in the lease.
The lease will have been written when the building was
first developed into flats and when that first became a thing,
(18:48):
and the lease won't have allowed sometimes for what is
a modernization and a cultural shift and an evolution, and
doesn't necessarily sit as well in twenty twenty five as
it might have done when the lease was drafted in
you know, like to lays and like n whenever it
might have been so. Yes, in theory, as a shareholder
in that company, as a member of that company, you
(19:10):
could suggest that everybody gets together, and everybody varies the leases,
and everybody varies that covenant. But you need to reach
an amount of consensus in order to create change. And
unless you're going to get to the necessary level of consensus,
you're stuck with the lease as drafted, and the directors
their duty is to enforce it. All the managing agents
they employ on their behalf is to is to keep
(19:33):
harmony in the building by ensuring that everybody is complying
with that lease. It's the same thing with airbnb use,
for example. So everybody assumes that they can just whack
their flat on Airbnb if they want. You Again, generally
with flats, there's something in there that says you can't,
and that it's fine to sublet it on a long
term basis. But because of reasons of people not wanting
(19:56):
the trundling of wheellycase wheels outside their flat or above
their head in the middle of the night, that's why
the clause would have been drafted in the lease in
the first place, that it needs to be occupied by
a single household or a single family, and that it
can't be sublet on a short term basis. Those kinds
of things are the issues that arise with clients who
just are unfamiliar with the system, have never waughter flat before.
(20:18):
Wouldn't think that that's something to be aware of.
Speaker 2 (20:20):
Yeah, okay, I have two more quick questions. The first
one is pylons.
Speaker 3 (20:27):
Okay, this might be very quick one. It might be
very quick.
Speaker 2 (20:33):
One of the things that comes up over and over
and over again is this fear that people now have
of buying a house in the countryside or even in
the suburbs, anywhere near any piece of open land, that
they might wake up one morning and find that part
of that the new and transmission line is going to
run through their garden or in their garden, for example.
Do the searchers throw up that kind of thing? That's
(20:54):
what comes up any planning applications around you, anything that
might turn your idyllic bit of countryside into an industrial site.
Speaker 3 (21:01):
Will that pop up?
Speaker 2 (21:03):
Or is it really never safe to buy in the
countryside anymore?
Speaker 3 (21:08):
I mean, we carry out a planning search and standard,
and not all law firms would we do because we
think it's something that people care about and we think
it's important.
Speaker 2 (21:16):
The result price versus value, everyone's price versus value.
Speaker 3 (21:20):
The results for a snapshot in time, so they will
show you any current planning applications as at the date
you apply for the search. What they won't necessarily show
you is the planning potential of neighboring land and whether
the view that you so adore and the reason that
you're buying the country house and the tranquility and the
peace and everything else, whether that is going to be
there for the foreseeable. For some clients we do a
(21:42):
little bit of extra digging. We obtain the titles for
neighboring land, see who the owners are, see how long
they've owned them for. You know, we can get a
planning consultant involved to advise on whether the green belt
is ever likely to you know, be turned into something else,
the chances of anyone getting permission to put some horrendous
in the adjoining land. But I think with everything in life,
(22:03):
there is an element of risk, and that is is
one of them when you're buying in the countryside. But
you absolutely shouldn't not buy there because of it. You
should just you know, take an education and informed decision.
Speaker 2 (22:14):
Okay, final question, unless John has another, is how do
you find the old lister? I mean, I think we
probably know that you shouldn't use the solicitor employed by
the estate agent.
Speaker 3 (22:28):
Again a really interesting one because lots of my work
is referred by a stage agents, lots and lots of
my work from agents. But I absolutely am entirely and
depends employed by not employed by them. I don't take
a referral fee. I don't give a referral fee that
you know they send work to me because they know
I'm going to look after the client really well and
get the job done. So I don't have that natural
(22:50):
sort of instinct. I can totally understand why you.
Speaker 2 (22:52):
Were I suppose I'm not. I don't think that's what
I meant. I didn't mean don't take a referral I
meant that sometimes you find this list right sally taking
rever of fees from sitting in the office with etceter
their joint businesses.
Speaker 3 (23:05):
I think some of them have them in house. Some
of them have a sort of flight on your quid,
passing here or there when the whole conveytion fhe's only
a thousand pounds and anything hews anyone doing anything in
any way to say yes that I would, I would
be nervous about. I think, as with everything, speak to
your friends. John said he had a great experience with
his online commencers. I would be listening to that. If
I were buying a you know, by to let investment
(23:26):
property for not very much money, I might just say, Okay, fine,
let's go for that. Why not it worked for you,
it would work for me. So I think I would
speak to the agents and say who've you had good
and bad experiences with? Because you want that team of
people who are who were working together for a transaction
to happen to be happy. So I wouldn't appoint a
solicitor that the estate agent hated, because that's that's not
(23:47):
a sensible thing to be doing. And I'm speak to
friends and family and see who they've had had a
good experience with.
Speaker 2 (23:54):
Brilliant. Thanks for coming on, Laura Pleasure, Thanks for listening
this week's Maren Talks Your Money. If you like us, share, rate, review,
and subscribe wherever you listen to your podcasts and keep
sending questions or comments to Merron Money at Bloomberg dot net.
You can also follow me and John on Twitter or
x I'm at Maren sw and John is John Underscore Steppe.
This episode was hosted by Me maren zumrset web. It
(24:17):
was produced by Someersadi Moses and and Tala Amadi. Sound
designed by Blake Naples Splicial thanks to Laura Conduit
Bloomberg Audio Studios, Podcasts, radio news.
Speaker 2 (00:18):
Welcome to Meron Talks Your Money, the personal finance edition
of Merin Talks Money. In these bonus podcasts, we talk
about the best strategies for making the most out of
your money. I'm Merin Sumset Web and with me today
as ever is senior reporter and author of the Money
Distilled newsletter, John Stevig. Hi, John, Hi'm okay. So we
are carrying on with our housing mini series. Our listeners
(00:40):
by now are so expert on this whole thing. But
there is one thing that we haven't talked about yet,
and yes, it's the ADMIN. And if there's one thing
that we really hate on Merin Talk's money. Okay, let's
be honest. One thing that I really hate it is admin.
So this is all about navigating the maze of paperwork,
the legal checks and all the deadlines. And this is
where conveyancing comes in. It's a legal process that actually
(01:03):
gets you from making an offer on a house to
owning the thing at the end of the deal. And
to discuss this, we are joined by Laura Condriit, the
head of property at Pharao Own Company. She joined the
company in twenty thirteen and she specializes in residential property
sales and purchases in prime and super prime London as
well as Country has this, So that's basically everything. I
don't know why I started with the specifications. Really good
(01:26):
to have you with us, Laura, thank you so much.
Speaker 3 (01:28):
Thank you both so much for having me.
Speaker 2 (01:31):
So let's start right at the beginning. When I was
looking this up briefly before I started, I see that
you need either a conveyancer or a conveyancing solicitor. Are
these the same thing?
Speaker 3 (01:42):
Yes and no. So it's it's different legal qualifications, but
the role in the process is exactly the same in
terms of that's the person you go to, as you say,
sometimes before the offer point, because sometimes we support clients
in making that offer, but all the way through to
completion of the the sale or purchase and registration at
the land industry.
Speaker 2 (02:02):
Okay, So who has more qualifications and therefore is more expensive?
A conveyancing solicitor or a convey.
Speaker 3 (02:09):
A solicitor is likely to be more expensive, but different
companies staff in different ways. But you don't want cheap
in a slister or a convencer. Oh, I don't know.
Speaker 2 (02:20):
We always want cheap before we want value or do
we want value? Well, I tell you what, as we've
started down at the grubby end of the process, what
does it cost in general to hire because we're not
going to hire a slister because you told us to.
How does it cost to hire a good slister to
take us through this process? Does it depend on what
kind of house we're buying, Does it depend on the size,
Does it depend on whether it's land or not?
Speaker 3 (02:42):
All of those things for us are factored in, So
we would look at whether it's new build, whether it's listed.
As you say this, you know, are we buying two
hundred acres or are we just buying a sort of
terrace house in a sort of relatively vanilla street where
nothing's been done to the house for thirty years. That
for us gives us a steer on the amount of
our time it's going to involve, and therefore, you know
(03:05):
the cost of the deal. Different lawyers price in different ways.
A high street convencer is likely to have a fixed
fee scale that pretty much just links to the value
of the property. You want a number, I.
Speaker 2 (03:18):
So want a number, you know, because what we're trying
to do here or as we're trying to help people
understand exactly how much money they need up from, because
people always think about this in terms of just their deposit.
But as we've discussed now over all this time, you
know it's not just your deposit. It's your stamp duty,
it's maybe your buying agency, as all these legal fees,
its registration fees, its all sorts of things. So yes,
(03:40):
do I need a number, I need a number.
Speaker 3 (03:42):
You'll very well have a number. All lawyers have this
on their websites because we have pricing transparency, so you
will find any company doing convincing work, we'll have this
information on the website freely available to see. The shortest
word in answering, that is to say, our fees for
a sale or purchase at the lower complexity, lower value
and start from five thousand plus th eighty and disbursements.
Speaker 2 (04:03):
Yeah okay, so it's actually it's quite a chunk once
you've gone through all the effort of finding a place,
figuring it, stap duty, the deposit, etcetera. This is the
big barrier to buying all these cash payments up front.
Speaker 3 (04:16):
You would find people doing it for a lot less
you would you would find firms doing it for less,
they're likely to answer the phone more slowly, reply to
emails more slowly, et cetera. If you want to do
a sort of ten working day purchase, you need to
come to a proper firm that's set up to do
that with that speed and has capacity to take it on.
But you could probably get someone to do it. And
I'm going to guess now fifteen hundred quid plus fat
might be what you pay someone to take three months
(04:38):
to do your convincing on something that doesn't need that
level of sort of speed and service.
Speaker 2 (04:43):
Yeah, all right, I think we're all going the hint.
Speaker 3 (04:48):
And nothing if not subtle.
Speaker 4 (04:51):
Just on this topic. One thing I did want task
I was going to ask later but as well Tom,
but might need to just know I've previously used and
the pretty simple part sees that I've had for my
who sees over the years, and I have used online
conveniences and they've ice have been like, okay, they've been fine.
What are the potential difficulties if you go down that route?
(05:14):
Because I always thought, right, okay, so this has been okay,
and I would recommend it to someone. But at the
same time, have I just got lucky or does it
just depend on the quality of the solicitor is involved.
Speaker 3 (05:26):
The thing with property is it's not just about property,
it's about people. And particularly if you're in a chain
of transactions, or if you're dealing with something at the
sort of ultra network end and you're dealing with egos
and people's competing interests, you need a really good estate
agent to manage all of that. If you're not going
to have solicitors who are talking and helping to sort
(05:48):
of ionize those guests, well, someone changing in completion days
or changing whether the curtains are included or not. That
kind of thing can completely unravel a transaction when it shouldn't.
And if you haven't got people community kating really openly
and picking up the phone and being human about things,
then you could unravel a deal that doesn't need to
be unraveled in terms of the actual due diligence. I mean,
(06:12):
you've got indempty insurance at the end of the day,
So if you're not too worried about having to rely
on that, then it sort of doesn't matter who he is.
And all firms have all firms have to carry three
million pounds, so as long as your properties under three
million pounds, then.
Speaker 2 (06:27):
You should be fine. Oh John will be worried about that. Laura,
tell you, what would you mind just talking us through
the things that you do that the legal steps involved here,
and then as a follow up question, I'd love it
if you would explain what searchers actually are. People always going, well,
it's the searchers, it's the searchers. What be doing with searches?
(06:49):
The searchers take forever. It's a six week business to
do the searches, and I'm honest with have no idea
what they mean. I was speaking to one of my
colleagues here who is using another firm for her convincing,
and I don't think she understands half of what her
lawyer has said to her, which is a shame because
she's paying for a service where she should understand what's happening.
Speaker 3 (07:09):
So I feel where you're coming from. So let's go
with the purchase rather than the sale then, because then
we can do about So when a client instructs us,
we obviously deal with KYC on boarding. We have to
comply with anti money laundering regulations in the same way
that sorry, I'm going.
Speaker 2 (07:24):
To interrupt you very briefly just because not everybody is
in our world.
Speaker 3 (07:28):
Customer your client, yeah, client, yeah, no problem. So that's
in very basic terms, if you're a really normal, lovely
couple called mister and missus Smith who have made your
money by going out to work, then it's providing me
with a certified copy of your passport and a proof
of address and some information about where you have made
your wealth in general and where you've made the funds
(07:50):
that you're using towards the purchase that cash element if
you mean, you'vet a mortgage for some of it, So
dealing with.
Speaker 2 (07:55):
That, it's an anti money laundering yeah, absolutely absolutely, In
these statage, it's have to be involved in that process
as well.
Speaker 3 (08:02):
Some of them will follow their own and some of
them will piggyback on the work that the lawyer has
done there and ask us to share it. People are
pretty good now a sort of expecting that and going
through the motions. Overseas, buyers can still be a little
bit reluctant to be as open as domestic people. I
think we've just had the rules for longer and people
are more more used to it in twenty twenty five. Okay,
(08:24):
so we're onboarded the next thing that we will do
is talk to a client about a survey, because we
want to get the wheels in motion with making sure
that they are having a physical survey of the property
to make sure that there are no issues that you know,
are they going to have to allow in their budgeting
for a new roof in the next five years, Is
there any damp, Is there anything sort of horrendous going on?
(08:46):
What we quite like is having a surveyor who's also
going to have a good look and be our eyes
and ears on the ground as to compliance with planning
and buildings regulations. So if the property has been extended,
has it actually been built as per the permitted extension,
or did something go away and get a planning permission
and then just build something twice as big or decide
(09:08):
that the window would look better as a door halfway
through building that. So we work hand in hand with
the surveyor on looking at the physical property both from
a defects point of view, but also from a regulatory
compliance point of view. So we get that survey booked
in if we can nice and early. At the same time,
we'll put in those searches that you were asking about.
(09:30):
The most important one of those is the local authority search,
and the reason it's the most important is because it
could show up the things which could lead us to
say that the property hasn't got good and marketable title,
which means that we wouldn't be signing off on it
as good security for a loan if there's a mortgage,
and we wouldn't be recommending to the client to go
ahead and buy it, which doesn't happen very often, but
(09:51):
it's the local search quite often that we'll throw something
out in that area, whether that's a tree preservation order
where as you say, somebody's ext ended and then they've
decided to just get rid of the tree that was
inconveniently in the way, and there's perhaps some enforcement action
happening about that that we would then see in that search,
or a breach.
Speaker 2 (10:10):
We've got to be more careful.
Speaker 3 (10:13):
There's all kinds of hazards we have to be careful about,
and that local search is the one that historically has
been a real problem in terms of the speed of
the process. Most of the London boroughs now a pretty speedy.
Camden's always been a little bitter, but I think they've
started to get their act together a little bit more
in recent years, and then up and down the country
(10:36):
it varies, and you'll have periods of time where the
local authority are slow at turning around those searches because
people are on holiday or are the leave unexpectedly and
they don't have the human physical capital to fulfill the
search requests, and then the search will take longer. So
that's where that suggestion has come from, that the search
is the searches, but most of them are sort of
(10:58):
ten working days now, some aer five working days. They've
all digitalized quite a lot, so when they're pulling together
the information to answer that set of inquiries that comprise
that search, a lot of that information now is electronic
and pull through, whereas it used to be a very
manual process. And then there's other searches, so there's a drainage,
water search, flood search, chance or search. I don't think
(11:19):
you've got the time for that today.
Speaker 2 (11:21):
And who are all these done with? If you're doing
a flood search again, is that done with the local
authority who.
Speaker 3 (11:26):
Did talk to? Every law firm has a centralized provider,
there's competing providers and they go off and then and
then get those searches in from the relevant organizations to
provide them. So for a drainage of water search in London,
it's Thames Water that the information comes from, for example,
than the local authority. It will depend on which London
borough you're in, et cetera.
Speaker 2 (11:48):
Okay, and a chance or search. We do have time
because I'm thinking to myself that this is connected that
awful period about I can't remember, what about ten years
ago when suddenly all sorts of people living in old
vicarages discovered that they were personally liable for repairing the
roof of their local church. Is that what we're talking about, Yeah.
Speaker 3 (12:08):
We are. In twenty thirteen, there was a requirement that
if the churches had a chance or liability, which is,
as you say, the responsibility for repairs that is incumbent
on surrounding residents, that they take shareish and registered at
the land Registry or forever hold their peace. And so
if a property has been conveyed, it's been transferred for
(12:31):
consideration i e. Payment since that date, then you're fine
on chancel. You don't need to worry about chancel because
it's either on the land registry title or you can't
be held responsible for it. If the property haven't changed
hands since twenty thirteen, then you still need to carry
out that chancel search and see if there's a liability there.
In short, there's also this amazing thing called indemnity insurance
(12:54):
that people then take out to just paper over the cracks.
Speaker 4 (12:57):
I don't remember. I do remember that to buy chancel.
And as for one of the properties that we bought,
I think I was into. Yeah, it was an expensive
but it was so.
Speaker 3 (13:07):
It still does.
Speaker 4 (13:10):
Haven't it explained to you? There wasn't a chart within
like viewing.
Speaker 3 (13:15):
Some of them had had sort of quite wide ranging
parishes that they were responsible for.
Speaker 2 (13:21):
What about things like disputes with neighbors and that kind
of thing. Does that come into the search of Like
if you had a long gooing dispute with your neighbor
over the headge or over their kid thaying the drums
too loud.
Speaker 3 (13:31):
That forms part of the sales pack that the sellers
slister will will pull together. So this the seller what
we sent standard form of inquiries and that covers all
of those things, disputes, complaints, It gives details of where
the stopcock is in the house, whether any alterations have
been carried out. You know, it's sort of a sort
of white Japanese not weird. All kinds of weird and
(13:52):
wonderful things are covered by those standard inquiries. If that
form were completed properly by sellers, and I don't blame
the seller, say, because warm filling is a really hard
thing to do. I hate admin in my personal life
there and you and I have that in common.
Speaker 2 (14:07):
Ye, so hard lying.
Speaker 3 (14:09):
So my working life. No, no, no, no, we don't
do that. We definitely don't want to be doing that.
But if the seller and their lawyer took five minutes
to jump on a call and just skim through that
form before sending it off to the buyer's lawyers, then
all of the questions that the seller hasn't quite answered
fully enough, or where they've said works have been done
that the buyer's lawyer is then going to say, great,
(14:30):
where's the certificate for those electrical works or those gas
works please? Or the building rates sign off for that
whopping great extension that you've just told me you've built.
That might speed the process along a bit. So there's
a little bit on the seller preparation side where if
you've got a really great sales pack prepared for you,
then you don't need to ask as many follow up inquiries.
(14:53):
So all of that standard information is given to you.
The lawyer then will review it, but you need to
ask some follow up inquiries, and that will be stuff
that's come out of the search results, stuff that's come
out of those standard replies to inquiries, things that the
surveyor has asked to be checked, and you then ask
any necessary additional inquiries. That back and forth is where
the process can then either go really smoothly or take
(15:16):
quite a long time to work through.
Speaker 2 (15:18):
And does this all work the same with the flatters?
With the house, it's got to be more complicated. Actually
it is more complicated and then more expensive. So with
a lease or flat, you obviously have a separate landlord,
usually with managing agents, depending on whether you're in a
big block or a sort of you know, Mazinet type
house divided up scenario, and you will get some additional
(15:42):
information as part of that sales pack from the managing
agents for the building. So again there's a standard form
with replies to inquiries that the managing agents fill in
that says how much the service charges, gives you a
copy of the accounts tells you whether there's any service charge.
Arrears gives you the Buildings Insurance a whole swathe of
information about that sort of physical setup of the building,
(16:03):
the common parts, the community garden, if there is one
facilities in the building, et cetera. So that's just more
information for us to wade through.
Speaker 3 (16:12):
And check that it's satisfactory and complete and again if
we need to, and usually with the leasehold there are
follow up questions on that area as well.
Speaker 4 (16:21):
Obviously you've seen an awful lot of properties and you've
got a lawyer expertise, So as an individual and as
maybe a warning if us stained by us, is it
anything that consistently crops up as an aid flag and
that makes you say, this is something you need to
be aware of that maybe a normal civilian would not
be awad of.
Speaker 3 (16:40):
Yeah, with apartments all the time, it's pets, wood flooring
and alterations.
Speaker 5 (16:45):
Wood flooring, yeah, yeah, yeah, you know what someone living
above you with wood flooring and so most buildings that
you're not allowed to have it, right, but then people
put it in against the rule through the building and
it's gonna be pulled up and you got to put
in carpets you bought there's great, you know warehouse dial
apartment with wooden floors and big windows, and then you
find you got to go out and get some you know,
(17:06):
inflammable nylon carpet to put the dog.
Speaker 3 (17:10):
I couldn't have put it better.
Speaker 2 (17:13):
Oh that's truly okay to me.
Speaker 4 (17:16):
That's a good one.
Speaker 3 (17:17):
Yeah, pets flooring and alterations. The pets one is such
a thing these days. People just assume they're going to
be able to have their dog in their apartment, and
they also leap to conclusions when a flatteres share a freehold,
they assume that there aren't going to be any rules
or regulations that apply to their flats as they're buying
to a freehold. So quite often the dog only the
(17:38):
dog's existence only emerges when you're some way down the process.
Agents are getting much much better I think, at asking
these questions upfront and when somebody's looking at making an
offer on a flat, finding out whether it's a building
that's dog friendly or not, and that just comes down
to the wording in the lease and whether there's an
absolute restriction or whether there's a we'll let your dog
in if we have a reference for the dog. I mean,
(17:59):
I have pet applications where you're literally getting written references
for the behavior of the animal and you're sending photos
and its name and an Instagram account.
Speaker 2 (18:08):
In one case, Wow, yeah, this is so No, this
is so Manhattan. You wouldn't have expect it.
Speaker 4 (18:18):
Who is it that is setting visuals? Because if you've
got a share of the freehold, then you are the freeholder,
So who enforces that?
Speaker 3 (18:26):
So normally, when you're in a share of freehold building,
say there are twenty flats in the building, there's a
company then that owns the building, and you each have
a share in that company. The directors of the company,
their obligation is to enforce the landlord terms in the lease.
The lease will have been written when the building was
first developed into flats and when that first became a thing,
(18:48):
and the lease won't have allowed sometimes for what is
a modernization and a cultural shift and an evolution, and
doesn't necessarily sit as well in twenty twenty five as
it might have done when the lease was drafted in
you know, like to lays and like n whenever it
might have been so. Yes, in theory, as a shareholder
in that company, as a member of that company, you
(19:10):
could suggest that everybody gets together, and everybody varies the leases,
and everybody varies that covenant. But you need to reach
an amount of consensus in order to create change. And
unless you're going to get to the necessary level of consensus,
you're stuck with the lease as drafted, and the directors
their duty is to enforce it. All the managing agents
they employ on their behalf is to is to keep
(19:33):
harmony in the building by ensuring that everybody is complying
with that lease. It's the same thing with airbnb use,
for example. So everybody assumes that they can just whack
their flat on Airbnb if they want. You Again, generally
with flats, there's something in there that says you can't,
and that it's fine to sublet it on a long
term basis. But because of reasons of people not wanting
(19:56):
the trundling of wheellycase wheels outside their flat or above
their head in the middle of the night, that's why
the clause would have been drafted in the lease in
the first place, that it needs to be occupied by
a single household or a single family, and that it
can't be sublet on a short term basis. Those kinds
of things are the issues that arise with clients who
just are unfamiliar with the system, have never waughter flat before.
(20:18):
Wouldn't think that that's something to be aware of.
Speaker 2 (20:20):
Yeah, okay, I have two more quick questions. The first
one is pylons.
Speaker 3 (20:27):
Okay, this might be very quick one. It might be
very quick.
Speaker 2 (20:33):
One of the things that comes up over and over
and over again is this fear that people now have
of buying a house in the countryside or even in
the suburbs, anywhere near any piece of open land, that
they might wake up one morning and find that part
of that the new and transmission line is going to
run through their garden or in their garden, for example.
Do the searchers throw up that kind of thing? That's
(20:54):
what comes up any planning applications around you, anything that
might turn your idyllic bit of countryside into an industrial site.
Speaker 3 (21:01):
Will that pop up?
Speaker 2 (21:03):
Or is it really never safe to buy in the
countryside anymore?
Speaker 3 (21:08):
I mean, we carry out a planning search and standard,
and not all law firms would we do because we
think it's something that people care about and we think
it's important.
Speaker 2 (21:16):
The result price versus value, everyone's price versus value.
Speaker 3 (21:20):
The results for a snapshot in time, so they will
show you any current planning applications as at the date
you apply for the search. What they won't necessarily show
you is the planning potential of neighboring land and whether
the view that you so adore and the reason that
you're buying the country house and the tranquility and the
peace and everything else, whether that is going to be
there for the foreseeable. For some clients we do a
(21:42):
little bit of extra digging. We obtain the titles for
neighboring land, see who the owners are, see how long
they've owned them for. You know, we can get a
planning consultant involved to advise on whether the green belt
is ever likely to you know, be turned into something else,
the chances of anyone getting permission to put some horrendous
in the adjoining land. But I think with everything in life,
(22:03):
there is an element of risk, and that is is
one of them when you're buying in the countryside. But
you absolutely shouldn't not buy there because of it. You
should just you know, take an education and informed decision.
Speaker 2 (22:14):
Okay, final question, unless John has another, is how do
you find the old lister? I mean, I think we
probably know that you shouldn't use the solicitor employed by
the estate agent.
Speaker 3 (22:28):
Again a really interesting one because lots of my work
is referred by a stage agents, lots and lots of
my work from agents. But I absolutely am entirely and
depends employed by not employed by them. I don't take
a referral fee. I don't give a referral fee that
you know they send work to me because they know
I'm going to look after the client really well and
get the job done. So I don't have that natural
(22:50):
sort of instinct. I can totally understand why you.
Speaker 2 (22:52):
Were I suppose I'm not. I don't think that's what
I meant. I didn't mean don't take a referral I
meant that sometimes you find this list right sally taking
rever of fees from sitting in the office with etceter
their joint businesses.
Speaker 3 (23:05):
I think some of them have them in house. Some
of them have a sort of flight on your quid,
passing here or there when the whole conveytion fhe's only
a thousand pounds and anything hews anyone doing anything in
any way to say yes that I would, I would
be nervous about. I think, as with everything, speak to
your friends. John said he had a great experience with
his online commencers. I would be listening to that. If
I were buying a you know, by to let investment
(23:26):
property for not very much money, I might just say, Okay, fine,
let's go for that. Why not it worked for you,
it would work for me. So I think I would
speak to the agents and say who've you had good
and bad experiences with? Because you want that team of
people who are who were working together for a transaction
to happen to be happy. So I wouldn't appoint a
solicitor that the estate agent hated, because that's that's not
(23:47):
a sensible thing to be doing. And I'm speak to
friends and family and see who they've had had a
good experience with.
Speaker 2 (23:54):
Brilliant. Thanks for coming on, Laura Pleasure, Thanks for listening
this week's Maren Talks Your Money. If you like us, share, rate, review,
and subscribe wherever you listen to your podcasts and keep
sending questions or comments to Merron Money at Bloomberg dot net.
You can also follow me and John on Twitter or
x I'm at Maren sw and John is John Underscore Steppe.
This episode was hosted by Me maren zumrset web. It
(24:17):
was produced by Someersadi Moses and and Tala Amadi. Sound
designed by Blake Naples Splicial thanks to Laura Conduit
Host
Merryn Somerset Webb
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