September 19, 2025 • 12 mins
In this week's market wrap, Merryn Somerset Webb and John Stepek unpack Next’s half-year report to reveal what falling vacancies, rising applications, and higher labor costs say about jobs, productivity, and AI. They also break down the Bank of England’s rate hold, the Fed’s cut, and what diverging policies mean for growth, inflation, and investors.
https://www.nextplc.co.uk/~/media/Files/N/next-plc-v4/documents/2025/half-year-results-july2025.pdf
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:02):
Bloomberg Audio Studios, Podcasts, Radio News. Welcome to the Marin
Dogs Money Market Wrap, where we talk about the biggest
moves in the markets this week and what is driving them.
(00:24):
I'm Marin Sum's Web editor at Large for Bloomberg UK Wealth, and.
Speaker 2 (00:28):
I'm Joined Stairpek, Senior report and author of the Money
Distilled News.
Speaker 1 (00:31):
Later, welcome back from more of your lovely holidays.
Speaker 2 (00:34):
John, thank you they were excellent.
Speaker 1 (00:37):
Well, I'm very glad to hear it, right John, Listen,
I know we want to talk about we want to
talk about interest raise, we want to wet the fair,
we want to talk about the UK etc. But before
we do anything, I want to bring you with me
to look at the half year report from next which
is always really well written, always really interesting, and always
(00:58):
focuses on stuff that everyone should be focusing on.
Speaker 3 (01:01):
And so there's everyone.
Speaker 1 (01:03):
I'm going to put the link in the show notes,
go to page twenty two and start reading, because this
is a bit where they look outside the performance of
the company to look at wider trends in the economy,
and they're looking at something you and I have talked
about a lot, John, Where are the job vacancies?
Speaker 3 (01:22):
Going is AI affecting things? What is happening?
Speaker 1 (01:25):
So there's a chart, I'll pop it on Twitter for
you shows how the continued for in UK vacancies is
beginning to be reflected in the actual number of employed people,
and those trends are echoed in NeXT's own data. They
tell the same story. So vacancies at their stores are
down thirty five percent, down thirty five percent more in
(01:48):
some stores, and applications for jobs at Next have gone
up by seventy six percent. So applications per vacancy to
work at Next are two zero point seven times higher
than they were two years ago. That's really something. Those
are big numbers. And then you look keep going down.
(02:11):
I'm telling it page twenty three now, listeners, page twenty three,
because you want you to go and look at this yourself.
He then looks at it in terms of inflation, a
decade of above inflation increases in the employment costs of
entry level work at or around the national living wage,
something that's been compounded by the recent increase in employees'
(02:32):
national insurance increases. So if you look at the chart,
you can see that since twenty fifteen, inflation has gone
up thirty eight percent, the national living wage has gone
up eighty eight percent, and the cost of part time
employment by having someone work for sixteen hours a week
has gone up one hundred and two percent.
Speaker 2 (02:53):
I'm not surprised by those figures, but it's extraordinary whenever
you put it like that. Yeah, and you can also
sell so I guess I know he does mention the AI,
but it's pretty clear what the actual driver it is.
Speaker 1 (03:05):
Yeah, And what he says then is is that mechanization
will be driven by this. So the increasing costs is
likely to have accelerated the rate at which businesses have mechanized.
The effect of automating some work is married and likely
amplified by the potential for AI to improve the efficiency
of many desk work activities. So you may say, and
(03:27):
this is another a conversation that you and I've had
a lot over the years, that if you make labor
more expensive, in some ways this isn't a bad thing,
because it means that there will be a huge rise
in productivity. So we'll have mechanization. AI will take over
those boring, lowly played clerical clerical jobs, and that is
in some ways a good thing. Will have a more
(03:47):
productive economy, except for if those people don't go on
to be employed elsewhere. The fact that some people are
more productive doesn't help the people who don't have a
job at all.
Speaker 2 (04:00):
Well, no, and also you know, obviously there's a knock
on impact on the benefits bill as well, which because
part of the problem with this is, I mean a
lot of this messing about with the minimum wage was
the offset the issues raised about people being in work
and still haven't any get tax credits, which all goes
back to Gordon Brown's kind of entire revamp into the
(04:22):
UK economy for the worst. But the problem is if
you then, as you say, if you don't have jobs
for people who go in and if you're basically pricing
people out of employment, then the entirety just ends up
falling in the state. And yeah, so I do think
and put this way, I don't think the productivity again
was the driver for these changes, and I don't think
(04:43):
it's going to be something that we get out of
these changes for exactly the reasons you've just outlined.
Speaker 1 (04:48):
Okay, deep side it all round on from that, John,
and I you know, listen, as we do not have
a solution to this problem. We are simply pointing out
what is happening. If you make it employing people more expensive,
a fewer people will be employed, and that there are consequences.
Are you listening, Rachelryes, Please please occasionally listen to us.
Speaker 3 (05:06):
We would really appreciate it. Anyway.
Speaker 1 (05:08):
This kind of thing makes life difficult for the Bank
of England, though of course their mandate is not employment,
it is inflation. But they found themselves in a situation
where we have this increasingly obvious employment problem, but we
also have inflation.
Speaker 3 (05:21):
So what do they do?
Speaker 2 (05:22):
John, Well, they did, Actually, they did exactly where everyone
expected them we do. They've kept interest rates at four percent.
The chances are very high now that there won't be
another rate cut this year. The thing that everyone was
keeping an eye on this time was quantitative tightening, which
is the rate at which they're getting ready of the
gelts on their balance sheet. But even then that wasn't
(05:43):
particularly exciting because they did roughly what the market expected.
And I mean it's meant to reduce pressure on the
very far out maturities, so like thirty years gut yields,
ten years gult yields doesn't actually seem to have because
I guess the market had already praised, and them cutting
back on and selling the longer dated gilts, so really
(06:06):
all around sort of a damp squab and really just
points to what we've already, you know, already been saying
kind of rubbish labor market, rubbish inflation figures. I mean,
of course, but they kind of The next chief execus
said something quite similar. He was saying, I don't expect
the UK accordomay fall off a cliff, but I do
(06:26):
expect and you make growth and this general sense of
a lack of dynamism, and I think the Bank England's
kind of the dilemma is that it can't actually do
anything about any of that.
Speaker 1 (06:40):
As an aside, I think i'd ask everyone who hasn't
yet to go and listen to our podcast with the
Professor dta Helm on energy costs. There's a lot of
discussion and energy costs at the end of this week,
because in video the CEO of Vidia pointing out that
if we want to have an AI revolution in the UK,
we're going to need to use an awful lot of gas,
which doesn't fit into the UK's ideas at the moment.
(07:01):
So it's worth listening to that podcast just to.
Speaker 2 (07:03):
It was just a really good podcast.
Speaker 3 (07:05):
It was fantastic, Yeah, very well explained.
Speaker 2 (07:09):
And I thought, I just it's the first taine that
I've properly heard someone explain in normal human language. But
the actual problem.
Speaker 1 (07:17):
It's so it's important to listen to that one, and
then to go back also and listen to the one
we did a few months ago with Callum Pickering where
we talk about the effect that expensive energy really has
on growth. These two things are so important at the
moment as we languish around the place with rubbish employment,
rubbish growth, highish inflation, and interest rates not quite where
people would have liked them to be. And I actually
(07:39):
can't remember now, which is the way, of course economists
like it to be. But I can no longer remember
what everyone was predicting interest rates in the UK would
be at the moment this time last year.
Speaker 2 (07:48):
It was definitely lower. It was it started with a
three rather than a four.
Speaker 3 (07:53):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (07:54):
And I will say you know that we are planning,
and this is very exciting for all of you listening.
Speaker 3 (07:57):
We are planning to start videoing our podcast.
Speaker 1 (08:00):
And with that in mind, I have been tidying my
bookshelf shot Corra. I know that no one knows me
welcome really put the word tidying and merin in the
same sentence. But along the way, I'm finding all sorts
of fascinating books which are a reminder of just how
many mistakes everybody makes all the time.
Speaker 3 (08:17):
So I've got hang on.
Speaker 1 (08:18):
So two that I pulled out this morning, The Coming
Collapse of China, written by Gordon G.
Speaker 3 (08:23):
Chang in twenty twelve.
Speaker 1 (08:25):
World on Gordon, and then in the early nineties Bill
I'm at the editor of The Economist Japan's Global Reach,
all about the amazingness of Japanese, Japan's multinational companies. That's
not quite so idiotic. Well recently that was I think
nineteen ninety two.
Speaker 2 (08:42):
Oh, fantastic, two years after the bubble hit already.
Speaker 1 (08:45):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, And of course you know Japanese companies,
many of them are still amazing still with still huge multinationals.
But obviously that was still a bubble book. So it's fascinating.
And I'm looking out now as you should, as should
you be, John, for the book that's going to tell
us that the AI bubble is bursting. It should come
out just at the very top of that, how AI
makes everything different, changes the world, et cetera, et cetera.
Speaker 3 (09:06):
God, God, we're getting old. We're getting old. We've got
to stop this right.
Speaker 2 (09:11):
This one's just coming out. Oh god. It was basically
if anyone builds this, everyone will die. So that's quite
a top of the market Headley, I think it is.
Speaker 1 (09:22):
And that's exactly the kind of thing that makes me
really glad that most books are wrong.
Speaker 2 (09:25):
Yeah, well, yeah, exactly. I would prevail that that is
not the keys.
Speaker 1 (09:30):
Yeah, okay, let's move ourselves over to talk about the FED,
which actually managed to cut interest rates. So we now
have a divergent policies between the easy be the Bank
of England and and the FED, which has now cut
Where are we now, don't you four point two five
(09:51):
four point two five percent?
Speaker 3 (09:52):
So hi Evan was but nonetheless coming down.
Speaker 2 (09:55):
Yeah, I think the interesting thing is basically the FEDS.
I mean, obviously the US and much better economy, but
the Fed's kind of facing a similar issue in the
Bank of England and the inflation still persistent, but employment
looks wobbly, and so the kind of conversation around this
cut was because some people had thought they could either
(10:16):
they could maybe go for a big half point cut,
or they could even have possibly stayed flat, but most
people expected the quarter point and that's that's what we got.
And the kind of conversation around it was not that
different to the conversation here, which is, well, inflation is
still kind of a bit too strong for comfort, but
(10:37):
employment could go either way. And I think within that
there was a lot of talk about whether political pressure
would make the Fed act in a certain way, a
more dubbish way, obviously, because Trump would like them to
cut interest rates, but it's not clear to me that
that's actually had any effect. I mean, I think that
(10:57):
in the absence of political pressure that they've done exactly
this same thing. So at the moment, I feel that
this idea that we're going to go back to a
kind of nineteen seventies after Buddn's situation getting bullied by
you know, Richard Nixon, it doesn't strike me as holding
as much water as some people would like it to hold,
(11:19):
but we'll see.
Speaker 1 (11:21):
Okay, It's important to remember that, you know, the FED
do have more of a focus on employment than the
than the Bank of England, so it is slightly different.
Speaker 2 (11:29):
Yeah, it's easier for them rationalized rate cuts on that basis.
But I said, I don't think that's really to do
with Donald Trump getting under your own power. Skinning is
more about this is just what you would do in
this situation. You know, we put too much stock in
central bank's abilities to control the economy. Anyway. But that's
(11:50):
a that's a whole other podcast.
Speaker 3 (11:53):
I'm looking forward to that one.
Speaker 1 (11:56):
It's been a whole half hour complaining about central banks,
a central bank and their god delusions.
Speaker 2 (12:02):
We've never done that before.
Speaker 3 (12:03):
We have it anyway, John, I don't want to go
on for too long because I know you're still recovering.
Speaker 1 (12:09):
From your holidays, so we'll leave We'll leave it there
and more on all of this next week.
Speaker 3 (12:19):
Thanks for listening to this week's Merrin Talks Money Debrief.
Speaker 1 (12:22):
If you like a show, rate review, and subscribe wherever
you listen to podcasts. Also be sure to follow me
and John on x or Twitter at marinas w and
John Underscore Stepic. This episode was produced by Samasadi Production,
sport and sound design by Moses and Questions and comments
on this show and all our shows are always welcome.
Our show email is Merri Money at Bloomberg, dot nex
Bloomberg Audio Studios, Podcasts, Radio News. Welcome to the Marin
Dogs Money Market Wrap, where we talk about the biggest
moves in the markets this week and what is driving them.
(00:24):
I'm Marin Sum's Web editor at Large for Bloomberg UK Wealth, and.
Speaker 2 (00:28):
I'm Joined Stairpek, Senior report and author of the Money
Distilled News.
Speaker 1 (00:31):
Later, welcome back from more of your lovely holidays.
Speaker 2 (00:34):
John, thank you they were excellent.
Speaker 1 (00:37):
Well, I'm very glad to hear it, right John, Listen,
I know we want to talk about we want to
talk about interest raise, we want to wet the fair,
we want to talk about the UK etc. But before
we do anything, I want to bring you with me
to look at the half year report from next which
is always really well written, always really interesting, and always
(00:58):
focuses on stuff that everyone should be focusing on.
Speaker 3 (01:01):
And so there's everyone.
Speaker 1 (01:03):
I'm going to put the link in the show notes,
go to page twenty two and start reading, because this
is a bit where they look outside the performance of
the company to look at wider trends in the economy,
and they're looking at something you and I have talked
about a lot, John, Where are the job vacancies?
Speaker 3 (01:22):
Going is AI affecting things? What is happening?
Speaker 1 (01:25):
So there's a chart, I'll pop it on Twitter for
you shows how the continued for in UK vacancies is
beginning to be reflected in the actual number of employed people,
and those trends are echoed in NeXT's own data. They
tell the same story. So vacancies at their stores are
down thirty five percent, down thirty five percent more in
(01:48):
some stores, and applications for jobs at Next have gone
up by seventy six percent. So applications per vacancy to
work at Next are two zero point seven times higher
than they were two years ago. That's really something. Those
are big numbers. And then you look keep going down.
(02:11):
I'm telling it page twenty three now, listeners, page twenty three,
because you want you to go and look at this yourself.
He then looks at it in terms of inflation, a
decade of above inflation increases in the employment costs of
entry level work at or around the national living wage,
something that's been compounded by the recent increase in employees'
(02:32):
national insurance increases. So if you look at the chart,
you can see that since twenty fifteen, inflation has gone
up thirty eight percent, the national living wage has gone
up eighty eight percent, and the cost of part time
employment by having someone work for sixteen hours a week
has gone up one hundred and two percent.
Speaker 2 (02:53):
I'm not surprised by those figures, but it's extraordinary whenever
you put it like that. Yeah, and you can also
sell so I guess I know he does mention the AI,
but it's pretty clear what the actual driver it is.
Speaker 1 (03:05):
Yeah, And what he says then is is that mechanization
will be driven by this. So the increasing costs is
likely to have accelerated the rate at which businesses have mechanized.
The effect of automating some work is married and likely
amplified by the potential for AI to improve the efficiency
of many desk work activities. So you may say, and
(03:27):
this is another a conversation that you and I've had
a lot over the years, that if you make labor
more expensive, in some ways this isn't a bad thing,
because it means that there will be a huge rise
in productivity. So we'll have mechanization. AI will take over
those boring, lowly played clerical clerical jobs, and that is
in some ways a good thing. Will have a more
(03:47):
productive economy, except for if those people don't go on
to be employed elsewhere. The fact that some people are
more productive doesn't help the people who don't have a
job at all.
Speaker 2 (04:00):
Well, no, and also you know, obviously there's a knock
on impact on the benefits bill as well, which because
part of the problem with this is, I mean a
lot of this messing about with the minimum wage was
the offset the issues raised about people being in work
and still haven't any get tax credits, which all goes
back to Gordon Brown's kind of entire revamp into the
(04:22):
UK economy for the worst. But the problem is if
you then, as you say, if you don't have jobs
for people who go in and if you're basically pricing
people out of employment, then the entirety just ends up
falling in the state. And yeah, so I do think
and put this way, I don't think the productivity again
was the driver for these changes, and I don't think
(04:43):
it's going to be something that we get out of
these changes for exactly the reasons you've just outlined.
Speaker 1 (04:48):
Okay, deep side it all round on from that, John,
and I you know, listen, as we do not have
a solution to this problem. We are simply pointing out
what is happening. If you make it employing people more expensive,
a fewer people will be employed, and that there are consequences.
Are you listening, Rachelryes, Please please occasionally listen to us.
Speaker 3 (05:06):
We would really appreciate it. Anyway.
Speaker 1 (05:08):
This kind of thing makes life difficult for the Bank
of England, though of course their mandate is not employment,
it is inflation. But they found themselves in a situation
where we have this increasingly obvious employment problem, but we
also have inflation.
Speaker 3 (05:21):
So what do they do?
Speaker 2 (05:22):
John, Well, they did, Actually, they did exactly where everyone
expected them we do. They've kept interest rates at four percent.
The chances are very high now that there won't be
another rate cut this year. The thing that everyone was
keeping an eye on this time was quantitative tightening, which
is the rate at which they're getting ready of the
gelts on their balance sheet. But even then that wasn't
(05:43):
particularly exciting because they did roughly what the market expected.
And I mean it's meant to reduce pressure on the
very far out maturities, so like thirty years gut yields,
ten years gult yields doesn't actually seem to have because
I guess the market had already praised, and them cutting
back on and selling the longer dated gilts, so really
(06:06):
all around sort of a damp squab and really just
points to what we've already, you know, already been saying
kind of rubbish labor market, rubbish inflation figures. I mean,
of course, but they kind of The next chief execus
said something quite similar. He was saying, I don't expect
the UK accordomay fall off a cliff, but I do
(06:26):
expect and you make growth and this general sense of
a lack of dynamism, and I think the Bank England's
kind of the dilemma is that it can't actually do
anything about any of that.
Speaker 1 (06:40):
As an aside, I think i'd ask everyone who hasn't
yet to go and listen to our podcast with the
Professor dta Helm on energy costs. There's a lot of
discussion and energy costs at the end of this week,
because in video the CEO of Vidia pointing out that
if we want to have an AI revolution in the UK,
we're going to need to use an awful lot of gas,
which doesn't fit into the UK's ideas at the moment.
(07:01):
So it's worth listening to that podcast just to.
Speaker 2 (07:03):
It was just a really good podcast.
Speaker 3 (07:05):
It was fantastic, Yeah, very well explained.
Speaker 2 (07:09):
And I thought, I just it's the first taine that
I've properly heard someone explain in normal human language. But
the actual problem.
Speaker 1 (07:17):
It's so it's important to listen to that one, and
then to go back also and listen to the one
we did a few months ago with Callum Pickering where
we talk about the effect that expensive energy really has
on growth. These two things are so important at the
moment as we languish around the place with rubbish employment,
rubbish growth, highish inflation, and interest rates not quite where
people would have liked them to be. And I actually
(07:39):
can't remember now, which is the way, of course economists
like it to be. But I can no longer remember
what everyone was predicting interest rates in the UK would
be at the moment this time last year.
Speaker 2 (07:48):
It was definitely lower. It was it started with a
three rather than a four.
Speaker 3 (07:53):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (07:54):
And I will say you know that we are planning,
and this is very exciting for all of you listening.
Speaker 3 (07:57):
We are planning to start videoing our podcast.
Speaker 1 (08:00):
And with that in mind, I have been tidying my
bookshelf shot Corra. I know that no one knows me
welcome really put the word tidying and merin in the
same sentence. But along the way, I'm finding all sorts
of fascinating books which are a reminder of just how
many mistakes everybody makes all the time.
Speaker 3 (08:17):
So I've got hang on.
Speaker 1 (08:18):
So two that I pulled out this morning, The Coming
Collapse of China, written by Gordon G.
Speaker 3 (08:23):
Chang in twenty twelve.
Speaker 1 (08:25):
World on Gordon, and then in the early nineties Bill
I'm at the editor of The Economist Japan's Global Reach,
all about the amazingness of Japanese, Japan's multinational companies. That's
not quite so idiotic. Well recently that was I think
nineteen ninety two.
Speaker 2 (08:42):
Oh, fantastic, two years after the bubble hit already.
Speaker 1 (08:45):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, And of course you know Japanese companies,
many of them are still amazing still with still huge multinationals.
But obviously that was still a bubble book. So it's fascinating.
And I'm looking out now as you should, as should
you be, John, for the book that's going to tell
us that the AI bubble is bursting. It should come
out just at the very top of that, how AI
makes everything different, changes the world, et cetera, et cetera.
Speaker 3 (09:06):
God, God, we're getting old. We're getting old. We've got
to stop this right.
Speaker 2 (09:11):
This one's just coming out. Oh god. It was basically
if anyone builds this, everyone will die. So that's quite
a top of the market Headley, I think it is.
Speaker 1 (09:22):
And that's exactly the kind of thing that makes me
really glad that most books are wrong.
Speaker 2 (09:25):
Yeah, well, yeah, exactly. I would prevail that that is
not the keys.
Speaker 1 (09:30):
Yeah, okay, let's move ourselves over to talk about the FED,
which actually managed to cut interest rates. So we now
have a divergent policies between the easy be the Bank
of England and and the FED, which has now cut
Where are we now, don't you four point two five
(09:51):
four point two five percent?
Speaker 3 (09:52):
So hi Evan was but nonetheless coming down.
Speaker 2 (09:55):
Yeah, I think the interesting thing is basically the FEDS.
I mean, obviously the US and much better economy, but
the Fed's kind of facing a similar issue in the
Bank of England and the inflation still persistent, but employment
looks wobbly, and so the kind of conversation around this
cut was because some people had thought they could either
(10:16):
they could maybe go for a big half point cut,
or they could even have possibly stayed flat, but most
people expected the quarter point and that's that's what we got.
And the kind of conversation around it was not that
different to the conversation here, which is, well, inflation is
still kind of a bit too strong for comfort, but
(10:37):
employment could go either way. And I think within that
there was a lot of talk about whether political pressure
would make the Fed act in a certain way, a
more dubbish way, obviously, because Trump would like them to
cut interest rates, but it's not clear to me that
that's actually had any effect. I mean, I think that
(10:57):
in the absence of political pressure that they've done exactly
this same thing. So at the moment, I feel that
this idea that we're going to go back to a
kind of nineteen seventies after Buddn's situation getting bullied by
you know, Richard Nixon, it doesn't strike me as holding
as much water as some people would like it to hold,
(11:19):
but we'll see.
Speaker 1 (11:21):
Okay, It's important to remember that, you know, the FED
do have more of a focus on employment than the
than the Bank of England, so it is slightly different.
Speaker 2 (11:29):
Yeah, it's easier for them rationalized rate cuts on that basis.
But I said, I don't think that's really to do
with Donald Trump getting under your own power. Skinning is
more about this is just what you would do in
this situation. You know, we put too much stock in
central bank's abilities to control the economy. Anyway. But that's
(11:50):
a that's a whole other podcast.
Speaker 3 (11:53):
I'm looking forward to that one.
Speaker 1 (11:56):
It's been a whole half hour complaining about central banks,
a central bank and their god delusions.
Speaker 2 (12:02):
We've never done that before.
Speaker 3 (12:03):
We have it anyway, John, I don't want to go
on for too long because I know you're still recovering.
Speaker 1 (12:09):
From your holidays, so we'll leave We'll leave it there
and more on all of this next week.
Speaker 3 (12:19):
Thanks for listening to this week's Merrin Talks Money Debrief.
Speaker 1 (12:22):
If you like a show, rate review, and subscribe wherever
you listen to podcasts. Also be sure to follow me
and John on x or Twitter at marinas w and
John Underscore Stepic. This episode was produced by Samasadi Production,
sport and sound design by Moses and Questions and comments
on this show and all our shows are always welcome.
Our show email is Merri Money at Bloomberg, dot nex
Host
Merryn Somerset Webb
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Cardiac Cowboys
The heart was always off-limits to surgeons. Cutting into it spelled instant death for the patient. That is, until a ragtag group of doctors scattered across the Midwest and Texas decided to throw out the rule book. Working in makeshift laboratories and home garages, using medical devices made from scavenged machine parts and beer tubes, these men and women invented the field of open heart surgery. Odds are, someone you know is alive because of them. So why has history left them behind? Presented by Chris Pine, CARDIAC COWBOYS tells the gripping true story behind the birth of heart surgery, and the young, Greatest Generation doctors who made it happen. For years, they competed and feuded, racing to be the first, the best, and the most prolific. Some appeared on the cover of Time Magazine, operated on kings and advised presidents. Others ended up disgraced, penniless, and convicted of felonies. Together, they ignited a revolution in medicine, and changed the world.
The Joe Rogan Experience
The official podcast of comedian Joe Rogan.