Katie Crutchfield aka American artist Waxahatchee joins Stu on the podcast to look back on how she arrived at her sixth album, Tigers Blood, following on from her 2021 breakthrough record Saint Cloud.
Just what does having a breakthrough record do to an artist? How will Katie navigate 2024? Is MJ Lenderman the most talented young dude in US indie rock right now? And what was Charlie Sheen talking about when he said he was drinking Tigers Blood back in 2011?
You can watch clips of the podcast online now, just give us a follow on Instagram @midnightchatspod.
Links to stuff mentioned in the episode:
Listen to Tigers Blood on Bandcamp
'Right Back To It' live on the Late Show with MJ Lenderman
Waxahatchee 2013 interview around Cerulean Salt
Charlie Sheen's Tiger's Blood moment
Credits:
Interview and editing by Stuart Stubbs
Mixing and mastering by Flo Lines
Artwork by Kate Prior
Video by Robbie Hamilton
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
I've been saying that the roadmap that I had for
my own career ended so long ago.
Speaker 2 (00:06):
Like I it's so long ago.
Speaker 1 (00:08):
I achieved everything I ever thought I would achieve. So
I'm in a complete no man's land. I'm in this
new territory.
Speaker 3 (00:17):
It's late folks.
Speaker 4 (00:19):
Welcome to Midnight Chats, the music interview podcast. My name
is Greg Cochrane.
Speaker 3 (00:24):
I'm Stuart Stubbs, and tonight's guest on the show is
Katie Crutchfield aka Waxahatchie, who I spoke to at the
end of January this year, twenty fifth of jan to
be exact, and you're here. The conversation starts with us
talking about when is it too late to be wishing
somebody a happy New Year. We decided it was a
(00:45):
fair game and it was still okay. Katie, who grew
up in Birmingham, Alabama, was on the show to talk
about her new album, her sixth album as Waxahatchie, called
Tiger's Blood.
Speaker 4 (00:57):
Tiger's Blood as in like Charley, she drinking tiger's blood exactly.
Speaker 3 (01:02):
So we get into this. We talk a bit about
Charlie Charlie Sheen, who I don't know if anyone remembers listening,
but about ten years ago he kept saying that he
was drinking Tiger's Blood and it was giving him special
winning powers. That was such a big deal at the time,
wasn't it. It's crazy, It's absolutely crazy. The reason we
wanted Wax actually on what I mean. I've met Katie
(01:25):
fire Zoom actually during the pandemic when she was promoting
Saint Cloud, which was her fifth record, Her record before
this one ended up being a huge hit, her biggest
selling album to date. The album was a little bit
of a departure from Katie's usual indie rock sound and
lean a lot more into her love for country music.
(01:46):
Put a little bit of pressure on Tiger's Blood. We
get into that a little bit. But there's a part
in this podcast where I tell Katie that I think
her melody is a bulletproof, which I'm saying that backs myself.
Is a very cringe thing to say, but I genuinely
mean it. And when you hear Tiger's Blood, go and
listen to that record, and I think all of those
(02:09):
songs could be like they could have been given to
Taylor Swift and they could be absolutely huge pop songs
in the hands of Taylor Swift, if that is what
Katie wanted to do with it rather than keep them
for herself. She's so, she is incredible, an incredible songwriter.
And I stand by my stupid line saying that she
has bulletproof melodies. Greg, I stand by that, fair fair,
(02:30):
I've heard this. And she's also just so cool.
Speaker 4 (02:34):
That sounds such a stupid thing to say, but she's yeah.
I just thought she's she's super cool.
Speaker 3 (02:41):
Yeah, she's great. A couple of things I just need
to clear up before we get started. We talk about
m J. Lenderman or Jake Clenderman. He is in a
band called Wednesday. That's who that is. He's got some
great records check him out. And Cerulean Salt. We mentioned
that is Katie's second Waxahatchie album, So I think that's so.
I think everything else is pretty much self explanatory. I
(03:03):
hope you enjoyed this episode of the podcast. Please do
follow us, Please do like, please do tell a friend
this is Waxahatchie. On tonight's episode of Midnight Chats, it's
probably too late for Happy New Year at this point
of the month.
Speaker 2 (03:23):
When is it? When do we say when? Do we
start saying happy.
Speaker 3 (03:26):
Well, we're on jan the twenty fifth, aren't we. Yeah,
I mean I'm up for it.
Speaker 2 (03:33):
I'm up for it too.
Speaker 1 (03:33):
I kind of think anytime in January is fair gay, yeah.
Speaker 3 (03:37):
Good good, Okay, Well, happy New Year?
Speaker 4 (03:39):
And to you?
Speaker 3 (03:40):
And are you a resolutions person? Do you ever do that?
Speaker 1 (03:44):
So sort of and it's really on brand for me
to be a resolution person, I think. But I've done
this thing the last couple of years where I pick
a word for the year. Okay, And so last year
my word was truth because I something I've struggled with
(04:07):
is being like completely honest with myself or like I
can be a little bit of a people pleaser and
so I'll sort of like lie to people to like
spread their feelings, you know. Ye.
Speaker 2 (04:18):
So I really took it seriously and all year.
Speaker 1 (04:21):
You know, I have a few like just sages in
my life that have you know, told me there's always
a polite way to tell the truth. So I really
implemented it, and I really think I grew as a person.
Speaker 3 (04:34):
So this is last years.
Speaker 1 (04:35):
That was last year, okay, So this year my word Okay,
So because I sometimes get a little I don't know,
like I struggle sometimes when I'm on a really when
I'm on a busy year, when it's like there's a
lot of attention on me or a lot of pressure
on me, that's just a harder. I like live a
(04:56):
pretty relaxed life. When I'm not fully on, it's a
little negative. Sometimes I can go negative in those moments.
So my word for the year is joy. Okay, I'm
going to really try and enjoy, you know something about
every experience that I have and just try and like
stay in the joy.
Speaker 3 (05:16):
Okay, great, Yes, how's it going? So for twenty five
days in on joy?
Speaker 2 (05:21):
Terrible? It's really unnatural to me.
Speaker 1 (05:25):
So I keep reminding myself, like Katie said, joy, like
just you know, I'm really I'm working on it.
Speaker 2 (05:31):
It's not going great.
Speaker 3 (05:32):
Sure, Okay, it's early in the year.
Speaker 2 (05:34):
We have time.
Speaker 3 (05:35):
You've got time for that. Yeah. What have some of
the other words been?
Speaker 1 (05:37):
This is a new thing, this is a new past
two years. But it went so well with truth that
I'm like, I think I'm going to keep this going.
Speaker 2 (05:43):
Okay, great, do you have resolutions?
Speaker 3 (05:45):
I do? You know? I went for as I started
getting them maybe ten years ago, and they were resolutions
but they were sort of things like the first one was,
I'm going to learn to drive this year.
Speaker 2 (05:56):
You don't know how to drive?
Speaker 3 (05:57):
No, I no, this was this was ten years ago.
I didn't know how to drive, and I was like, right,
I'm going to learn to drive. And I did it.
I tried to learn when I was younger. I was
terrible and I hated it, and then I thought, right,
this is ridiculous. I need to learn to drive. That
was my resolution. I did it, and I loved it
so much. The next year, I was like, I'm going
to learn French, and those they are not comparable things.
(06:21):
I realized very quickly, because you know, there's no end
to that. Ever, the follow I didn't learn my lesson.
Following year, I was going to learn the piano. Okay,
hadn't even learned French at that point, but I do
have one this year that's a bit more more in
line with yours, I think, which is I've just decided
I need to take better care of myself. I've not
(06:44):
got like it's not like I've got a gym plan
or I'm not quitting it. Something that I eat that's
bad for me. I'm just telling myself just relax not works.
Are hard? Sleep better?
Speaker 4 (06:58):
Yeah?
Speaker 3 (06:59):
So that that's it, and so far it's going quite well.
Oh good, I think. And I'm also trying to let
go of control.
Speaker 2 (07:07):
Oh that's hard.
Speaker 3 (07:09):
Yeah, that's as hard as learning French.
Speaker 2 (07:11):
It's maybe harder.
Speaker 1 (07:13):
Yeah, that's really good.
Speaker 2 (07:15):
You know. I heard somebody.
Speaker 1 (07:18):
In my life once said to you just have to
get back to baseline, and then when you get to baseline,
you just try your best to maintain it. And if
you get away from baseline, then just try and check
in with yourself.
Speaker 2 (07:30):
How do I get back to baseline?
Speaker 1 (07:31):
You know? I think sleep is something that people don't
really think about enough when they think about I need
to take care of myself, like self care. Sleeping is
like too outside of the conversation, it's really I it's
so important.
Speaker 3 (07:46):
Yeah, and I'm a terrible sleep are you?
Speaker 2 (07:48):
That's too bad.
Speaker 3 (07:49):
I've given up caffeine and that's helped. Oh, that's helped.
Speaker 2 (07:53):
That sounds very hard. That would be very hard for me.
Speaker 3 (07:55):
Yeah, but I'm glad joy's going well for you.
Speaker 2 (07:58):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (07:58):
Well, you know, it could go better, but we'll get there.
Speaker 2 (08:01):
I have faith.
Speaker 1 (08:02):
The truth took me a little while, and in fact,
It wasn't until like maybe last summer that I noticed, oh,
this is actually happening. I'm actually doing this, I'm actually
telling the truth, and I'm I'm it's caused like not
any sort of upheaval, but it's led me. It's really
led me to some very brave, scary things that are
(08:26):
changing my life for the better.
Speaker 2 (08:27):
So you know, we'll see great.
Speaker 3 (08:30):
So I mean, I love January because I feel but
I think we're in the minority here because when I
say this to people, they say, really especially here, like
you know, it's very trap in London. Sure, But I
think it's because think we're on the same page on this,
because when a new year starts, I'm very positive. I
(08:50):
don't get I'm not down on a new year until
maybe March. I've got two months grace of thinking every
thing is going to be great this year. Yeah, and
then you know, by March I'm thinking, Okay, maybe this
year is dead one. We'll go for the next one
sort of thing. Looking at the year ahead of you, obviously,
is it all about new album for you? Is that
(09:11):
sort of the I guess that's where you're at, right,
it's an album year. Does your year build around that.
Speaker 2 (09:17):
Yes, it does.
Speaker 1 (09:19):
It's funny as you get a little older, Like when
I was younger and I had a new it was
a new album year, it was one hundred percent all
about that, and that was like my whole existence. And
so I'm trying to approach it with a little bit
more nuance and kind of have have there be some
depth to it all, Like I want to try and
make sure that I'm keeping a lot of space for
(09:40):
my personal life and for just you know, my downtime
and like cooking and doing small things and keeping things
really small when I can, and and I think that
actually that goes really well with joy and it'll help
me enjoy when I do have. Like, I think it's
really easy to feel like you've been launched out of
(10:02):
a cannon on a new album year, especially right after
the records announced, which has only been a few weeks.
But I think you know more or less the entire
years pretty much about the new.
Speaker 2 (10:16):
Album or tour.
Speaker 1 (10:17):
It's a lot of tour, so there's going to be
a lot of traveling, so it's.
Speaker 3 (10:20):
Just sick thre record. Yes, at this point, have you
allowed yourself to sort of accept this is my career
and my life forever now or as a musician, are
you always on that sort of precipice? I think, and
this could all end tomorrow, like innately, it's really interesting.
Speaker 1 (10:38):
I mean, you know, on one hand, I I've been
doing it for a really long time, even longer than
six albums. Like I started writing songs when I was fourteen.
I'm thirty five now, so it's been like twenty one
years of my life that I've been doing this one
thing more or less the same way.
Speaker 2 (10:59):
So and I came up in this in like such
a diy.
Speaker 1 (11:05):
Scene, like I played the smallest shows for the least
amount of money one can do that for and and
for like a kind of a long time.
Speaker 2 (11:15):
And what's beautiful about that.
Speaker 1 (11:16):
Is I I do feel like kind of no matter
what happens, I'm never gonna not, you know, do what
I do. I think I'll always write songs, I'll always
make records, even if you know, people stop caring about them.
So it does give you this a little bit of
like a fearlessness. Like I've been saying that the roadmap
(11:36):
that I had for my own career ended so long ago,
Like I it's so long ago. I achieved everything I
ever thought I would achieve. So I'm in like complete
no man's land. I'm in this like new territory.
Speaker 3 (11:49):
Where did that? Where did that map take you up to?
Where would that be? Was it as simple as American Weekend?
If I can get for overleased?
Speaker 1 (11:56):
No? I think, you know, really really Salt that was
one like my second album where we were speaking about earlier,
like I came to London for the first time, I
came to Europe for the first time, I got to
quit my day job and stuff. That was like about
ten years ago, so that, I think was was one
road map. And then once my career formed, I would say,
(12:17):
really Saint Cloud, like the breakthrough I had with that
album and like the level that I achieved, the amount
of tickets I was selling, the amount of records I
was selling. I was like, this is great, this is
all I ever thought this would that whatever happened. So
I'm certainly in this kind of weird moment with this
next record because I don't really know what's gonna happen,
but I do. I feel really grateful that I've seen
(12:39):
it all. I've been doing it so long, you know,
there's like that great there's like this great lore about
Tammy Wynette, how she kept renewing her like cosmetology license
every year even when she was like this huge star,
because just in case, just in case, she's got a
backup plan, you know. So I think every musician probably
feels that way. Really, it's important not to take it
(13:01):
for granted.
Speaker 3 (13:02):
But I was going to ask you about the success
of Saint Cloud, and actually you've sort of answered what
I was going to ask. Really is because I know
that that album was your biggest success and it's sort
of found you in new audience. This, we should say,
is your most recent album other than this new one,
Tiger's Blood, which was released in twenty twenty. From a
(13:23):
fans point of view, that in the moment, I sort
of thought, oh yeah, but that it's all been of
this level. But you felt in real terms that was
a step up, right in terms of ticket sales, as.
Speaker 1 (13:37):
You say, yeah, I think honestly, on both sides of
the coin. I think, as like a creative endeavor, it
felt like a really big step up.
Speaker 2 (13:44):
To me. I felt like, you know, I think all.
Speaker 1 (13:49):
Of my songwriting, like I can go through all my
albums and pick out like these great moments that I'm
still super proud of, but I think just as a
cohesive piece of work. Cloud to me was you know,
from the from the moment we you know, started recording it,
I was like, I think I'm making my best album
so far right now.
Speaker 2 (14:08):
Which is really exciting.
Speaker 1 (14:10):
And then it was really cool that the reaction also
felt like, oh, I think this is reaching.
Speaker 2 (14:16):
More people than I ever have, you know.
Speaker 1 (14:19):
When we made the record, It's funny, there was like
this really relaxed sense of I know, I'm taking like
a hard pivot, like this is a different sound, and.
Speaker 2 (14:30):
It feels so correct that I just have to keep
going down this path.
Speaker 1 (14:36):
And there's like a fearlessness to that of like if
people enjoy this, how amazing. If they don't, well, I
feel like I'm aligned so that I just have to
kind of go down my path, you know. And what
a cool blessing that when I put it out it
also felt like it reached more people and there was
(14:58):
sort of this like depth of connection to the listening
that I had through making that record that was pretty amazing.
Speaker 3 (15:04):
When it felt even more sort of special or even
more impressive even that it was such a success during
it was released literally as the pandemic was starting, wasn't it.
It was very early on in twenty twenty. To have
such a hit at that time is very unique because
I know, like a lot of artists especially sort of
(15:24):
struggled around that time because you couldn't tour it, you
couldn't promote it. I there were lots of records that
came out around that time that maybe didn't get sort
of the attention. So it's incredible that people connected with it,
or maybe they connected with it due to the pandemic
and they were listening to it on there. I don't
know what the rules were in the States, but here
you could go for a twenty minute walk once a day,
and that's where people were discovering certain things. So maybe
(15:47):
it helped.
Speaker 1 (15:48):
You know, that taught me a really interesting lesson actually,
because you know, I think not in black and white terms,
but before that, I think I had this vague sense of,
like songs that I write they.
Speaker 2 (16:03):
Need to be really, you know, one hundred.
Speaker 1 (16:06):
Percent committed to describing my experience in like no uncertain terms,
and I felt like was Sant Cloud. And certainly I've
written songs like this in the past, but I think
with Sant cloud. I did shift toward you know, that
record is really about me getting sober and this sort
of like internal battle that I was sort of having
with myself, and I did try and write it in
(16:29):
a way that didn't feel like it was obviously about that.
I wanted it to feel nuanced and kind of poetic.
Speaker 2 (16:36):
And I think.
Speaker 1 (16:37):
People really were able to like apply their anxieties and
their sadnesses and whatever about the pandemic and how it
hit them individually to that record and vice versa, and
I really took that lesson into the new record. I
really I feel like I was really conscientious of the
listener as I was writing the songs, Like a lot
(16:58):
of the experiences are that I'm writing about are very specific,
and I'm trying my best to make them to honor
them while keeping them kind of vague so that people
can can like let it land on them however it
needs to land on them.
Speaker 2 (17:11):
Sure, So it was kind of a cool thing.
Speaker 3 (17:14):
Yeah, Yeah, definitely, it definitely does that. I've been listening
to Tiger's Blood a lot, and I've got the lyric sheet.
We're going to talk about this in a bit because
I've got some questions before we do that though, with
the success of Saint Cloud, did has it afforded you?
What has the success of that afforded you? Have you
had like loads of offers to do adverts or has
(17:39):
it just got you bigger gigs or bigger festival Like
what in real terms? What does having a success like
that due to an artist like yourself?
Speaker 1 (17:49):
That's so funny, I'm flattered. Do you think I could
do an aver?
Speaker 3 (17:54):
You wait for what's coming up?
Speaker 1 (17:55):
Okay, I'm scared, so I you know, it's it's all
the things that you that things that have been lifelong.
Speaker 2 (18:03):
Goals of mine.
Speaker 1 (18:03):
You know, like I own a house now, I you know,
you know, I've gotten to do bigger gigs. I've gotten
to like do big support tours. I mean I got
to open for Cheryl Crow last year. You know, like
things like that, just all the things that you sort
of dream about, and you know, it's it's it's afforded me,
like the ability to sort of take a lot of
time off to really focus on making this record, which
(18:26):
I think is great in the past. You know, it's
like I've I've had to kind of work on records
while I'm also really kind of still in the last record,
like still touring, and I felt like I had a nice,
little quiet period of time to.
Speaker 2 (18:43):
Really focus on on this record, which really lovely.
Speaker 3 (18:46):
What was Sheryl crow like?
Speaker 2 (18:48):
So great?
Speaker 1 (18:49):
We didn't speak very much, which is completely understandable, and
if I were her, I would have done the exact
same thing. She's very busy and she's got an air
of that just sort of like so much grace, so
much poise, you know, friendly to everyone and rarely seen,
which is just that's the way to be.
Speaker 3 (19:09):
So Tiger's Blood is the new record. I hate asking
about names of things, but I just love the name
Tiger's Blood. I think it's going to look great on
your merch.
Speaker 2 (19:18):
Thank you so much. I love that you're thinking about that.
Yeah that's great.
Speaker 3 (19:22):
Yeah yeah, I'm like your new sort of merch marketing guy.
It looks you know, it looks great, Like where does
that come from? Obviously? The final track on the album
is called Tiger's Blood? Is it? Was it? Simply You're like,
that's that's the title because it looks good on merch.
Speaker 2 (19:35):
Yeah, well, in a way, it's funny.
Speaker 1 (19:38):
So I was just in Europe and I realized that
I was explaining what this meant, and that they a
lot of them maybe didn't one hundred percent understand what
I meant, and so I had to break it down
even more granularly.
Speaker 2 (19:54):
So I'm going to just break it down super granularly.
Speaker 3 (19:56):
Okay, do it?
Speaker 4 (19:57):
Okay?
Speaker 2 (19:59):
Do you know what a snow cone is?
Speaker 3 (20:00):
Yes?
Speaker 2 (20:01):
Okay, So they didn't, Okay.
Speaker 1 (20:02):
So I was talking about snow cones and I could
tell they were looking at me, so like, what.
Speaker 3 (20:06):
The fuck is that?
Speaker 2 (20:07):
Okay?
Speaker 3 (20:09):
Do you think we should clarify a snow I'll tell
you why. A snow cone. It's a paper cup cone,
and it's we call them slushies here, okay, And so
anyone listening in the UK, it's a slushy. It's like,
it's not ice cream, it's crushed ice with that's flavored
like syrup breath flavored, syrupl whatever on top.
Speaker 2 (20:31):
That's exactly that's a perfect definition.
Speaker 3 (20:32):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (20:33):
So in America there's a snow cone flavor, and I'm
sure it exists elsewhere too. It's like a little bit
of a deep cut. It's not exactly like like because
not everyone knows what it is. But there's a flavor
called tiger's Blood and it's strawberry and coconut mixed together.
Speaker 2 (20:48):
It's delicious, okay.
Speaker 1 (20:50):
And when I was a kid, it was like one
of my favorites. So when I was writing that song,
that moment of the song where I'm talking about tiger's blood,
I was sort of just trying to like weave in
a lot of sort of childhood memories, like just this
innocence and summertime and just sort of describing this like
certain feelings.
Speaker 2 (21:10):
So that like sort of fell out of my brain.
Speaker 1 (21:13):
And when it did, I was like, well, that's obviously
got to be the title of the song, right, And
then when I was trying to figure out the album title,
it just kept like screaming at me like I think
that this is a cool title, and I knew I
knew when I named it this, and like everyone's gonna
want me to explain this, so, which is totally fine.
But you know, with sant cloud I, it was a
(21:35):
really similar thing. It was just like a random lyric
that just came out of my head, and the way
those two words sounded together just fit for some reason,
like some very inexplicable It's the same thing.
Speaker 2 (21:51):
I think so too.
Speaker 1 (21:51):
I really like that's how I like to come up
with album titles. I like them to sort of show
themselves to me. But then for whatever reason, it's not.
It's not very there's nothing super calculated or intentional about it.
Speaker 2 (22:04):
It just feels right, and I just roll with it.
Speaker 3 (22:06):
Yeah, that's the best way to do it. When I
saw Tiger's Blood written down, the first thing that my
mind went to, and I'm sure it's only me, was
Charlie Sheen. Do you remember when he was talking about
Tiger's blood.
Speaker 2 (22:19):
And everything about that. I probably need to know that, so.
Speaker 3 (22:25):
And I looked up when this was. It was actually
ten years ago. He got sacked from the show he
was on. I think it was maybe a Comedy Central
show two.
Speaker 2 (22:33):
And a half men, Yes, yes, yes, of course, And.
Speaker 3 (22:36):
He had this huge public sort of feud with the producer.
And within these rants he kept doing, i want to say,
over a month or so, very public sort of rants.
He started saying that he's been drinking Tiger's blood and
it's giving him special powers, and he kept saying winning.
Speaker 2 (22:55):
I remember I remember winning, So within.
Speaker 3 (22:58):
That if you go back to that, if you just
just googled Charlie Sheen Tiger's Blood that's what will come
up him ranting about winning, about winning, Yeah, because he
drinks tiger's blood.
Speaker 1 (23:09):
Okay, so here's a little fact. Actually, so we're putting
we're actually solving a mystery right now. When I decided
to name my album Tiger's Blood, I did want to
just do a quick search and be like, does this
like you know, has someone else used this or whatever?
And the one thing that came up, just more than
anything else was some sort of protein powder called Tiger's Blood.
(23:30):
And so that's a little bit of a chicken and
egg situation. Was Charlie Sheen using the protein powder or
did the protein powder hear Charlie Sheen say that and
name their product after that?
Speaker 2 (23:43):
Who's to say.
Speaker 3 (23:44):
If anyone listening can solve this. I mean, now that
you say that, he must have meant he must have
meant that, right, I made. But it got picked up
by the media as he's drinking Tiger's blud even saying
that out loud. I'm thinking, did it get picked up
by the media that way? Off? I just interpreted that way?
Speaker 2 (24:05):
I mean, I'm not sure I think that.
Speaker 1 (24:07):
I mean, that's great marketing, you know, like he's winning,
he's winning.
Speaker 2 (24:10):
We're gonna that's so if you want to win too,
you got.
Speaker 3 (24:13):
To get your album. Yeah, get his face on the
T shirts you're marketing.
Speaker 2 (24:19):
Idea, I'm going to write somethings down. These are great.
Speaker 3 (24:21):
Yeah, okay, so great. I mean, so I'm glad I
asked that question. And it wasn't just a simple I
just liked the name.
Speaker 2 (24:30):
Imagine, I'm like a huge Charlie.
Speaker 3 (24:32):
She he guests on the album. So when you went
into making this record, you'd had this huge success, Saint
Cloud had been massive. Did you know what you wanted
to do with this one? Did you know, la, Okay,
I want to do something different to Saint Cloud, or
did you did you just go in and think, okay,
let's just see what happens when we're in there.
Speaker 1 (24:50):
It's a little bit of a story, and it was.
It was a journey, okay. So I knew I was
going to make my record after Saint Cloud with the
same producer, Brad Cook, who's really just come like my
right hand and my sort of like main you know,
musical the main musical collaborator of my life, I think
is Brad. And you know, I think that we we
(25:13):
really gass each other up. I think we keep each
other like in check, but we keep each other confident
about what we're doing.
Speaker 2 (25:19):
And we were like talking a really big game.
Speaker 1 (25:22):
We were like, this is gonna be epic, Like whatever
we do next, it's gonna be amazing. Like we were
just gassing each other up so hard, and then when
it came down to it, it was like neither of us,
I think, really knew what we were gonna do, and
and we were both I think feeling a different type
of pressure, but a certain amount of pressure to follow
(25:44):
up sant Claude. I think we both were just like,
we don't want people to think this is a fluke.
Do we think this is a fluke?
Speaker 3 (25:50):
Did you start talking about this?
Speaker 1 (25:51):
Oh?
Speaker 3 (25:51):
Yeah, we really so you were always on the same
page with.
Speaker 1 (25:54):
It, Yeah, well at first we weren't. At first, we
were just gassing each other up. And then I think
we broke it down and we got beneath the surface
and we were both like, actually, we're kind of scared.
Actually we're both kind of scared. So, you know, I
didn't have a clearcut idea like with Sant Cloud. I
knew I wanted to make the record with Bonnie Dune
from Detroit. You know, their sound was so influential on
(26:18):
that album and and was so exciting to me that
it was really easy for me to just be like, oh,
this is gonna be great. We'll just get those guys
in the studio and we'll all just do our thing
and it'll all work out.
Speaker 2 (26:28):
And it did.
Speaker 1 (26:29):
It was very like organic and easy. So we didn't
have that right away with Tiger's Blood. We didn't have
like the obvious an obvious plan about how we were going.
Speaker 2 (26:38):
To make the record.
Speaker 1 (26:39):
So the first demo session, you know, I had maybe
like a month before we Brad and I met up
in Durham to demo, I had maybe like seven or
eight songs like the record was, you know, mostly written,
but still there was no it was no clear cut
idea how that how we were going to like make
(27:00):
them into real songs. So I had mentioned a Brad
like offhand, you know, I would love to bring in
m J. Linderman, Jake Linderman, who I didn't know well
at the time, but Brad knew, and you know, Brad
was like, yeah, that's a cool idea, let's do it,
and so kind of unbeknownst to me, Brad invited him
to the first thing we did, the first demo session,
(27:22):
which is kind of funny, Like I my vision for
that was like, I don't know him too well, let's
bring him in like once we have a plan, yeah,
and we know what we're doing, but nope, Like the
first day it's me, Brad and Jake, and you know,
immediately I was like, put it complete ease.
Speaker 2 (27:38):
He's super sweet. He's like ten years younger than me.
Speaker 1 (27:41):
Like he's like he's just like a wide eyed, like
young man. And you know, at that time was like
relatively inexperienced and that kind of thing. And I mean,
he just like won us over immediately. He we jammed
for a while, like he plays drums, he plays everything
kind of, but he was he was playing drums and
Brad was playing bass, I was playing guitar, and we
(28:02):
just jammed like that for a long time. We tracked everything,
and then the second day we put Jake on guitar
and we brought in a drummer, Matt Macon, who lives
down the street from Brad, and we tracked right back
to it like that, And that was the first thing
we tracked for. Brad and I were like Oh that
that's exciting. That sounds like a song. That sounds like
(28:23):
a song that sounds like something we should chase after.
It's really similar to the finished song. And just right
before it was time for him to go home, we
were like, hey, will you sing a harmony over that?
And he went into the booth.
Speaker 2 (28:36):
It's funny.
Speaker 1 (28:37):
I was like, like in like sort of a stage
mom sort of way, like coaching him through the harmony,
like just assuming like, oh, he needs help, and which
is so funny now. But he he was like really
polite and was like, yeah, that sounds great, and then
he went into the booth he sang something completely different
and then it was so much better.
Speaker 2 (28:59):
It was so good.
Speaker 1 (29:00):
And then there's like this one part where he sings
you just settling in that line. When he did that,
Brad and I were like, oh, like we both like screamed.
We're just like that is so good that that note,
the way it rubs against my note, it's making me
feel things, you know. We just really freaked out and
and I really think that was the moment that we
(29:23):
were like we know exactly what to do now.
Speaker 3 (29:26):
How confident. I mean, he's such a talent, that guy.
Speaker 2 (29:29):
Oh yeah.
Speaker 3 (29:30):
But I mean, what a confident young man. You know,
like it goes and it's so nice that you know,
he said, yeah, yeah, okay, I'll take on that feedback
goes in to just to not just do what you've
sort of I guess asked him to do. It's bold,
isn't it. But when you're that good, you know, you
just back yourself and you know, okay, I think I've
(29:50):
got something here. It's a gift, isn't it. Not just
not just the gift of doing it, but the gift
of backing yourself.
Speaker 1 (29:57):
You know.
Speaker 2 (29:57):
It's so true. It's funny. He's so interesting.
Speaker 1 (30:00):
He's the way I described Jake a lot of the
time is he's just he has this like unbelievable amount
of talent, Like he is so unpretentious, Like he was
visibly nervous, but he went in there and did it
was like so much better than what I even could comprehend,
you know, And I think it just it all comes
(30:20):
down to he is just that talented.
Speaker 3 (30:23):
I hates him. I hate young talented people.
Speaker 2 (30:27):
Yeah, it's so funny.
Speaker 1 (30:28):
It really honestly like working with him, I mean I
could talk about it all day.
Speaker 2 (30:32):
It really like uh, you know, he comes from this scene.
Speaker 1 (30:35):
He's like he's in Wednesday and there's a bunch of
bands like around those guys, and they're all really cool,
and it really reminds me of myself when I was
their age, Like I was kind of like the same
and in the same like group of like cool misfits,
you know, and we like made records together and we're
all best friends and we all live together, and it
just it realigned me with like this part of myself
(30:56):
that I hadn't been connected with in a long time.
Speaker 3 (30:59):
Yeah, why you saw in him, Like that's probably why
you were like being a mum coach too, because you
saw a bit of yourself in here.
Speaker 2 (31:06):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (31:06):
I was like, come on, you got this, and he
was just kind of like so nice about it and
then went in there and just did his own thing,
and it was I'm so happy he did. And I
never coached someone harmonies again. I just anytime I was like,
I just want to see what you're going to do.
Speaker 3 (31:21):
The thing I think about your songs and this goes
all the way back to American Weekend. The songs are
so expertly written and the melodies are like bulletproof melodies
with that sort of in mind, and the success of
the last record is that has there been any part
of you it's thought, let's make a run for like
(31:42):
pop stardom because you inhabit such sort of like a
sort of alternative world. But you know, all of those
melodies could be like smash hits. I think you and
did you ever have that? Have you had that thought
or like at any point or especially off the same cloud?
Speaker 1 (32:02):
I guess, thank you so much. I mean that's really flattering.
I you know, I don't think it's hard to it's
hard to like describe this. I've said this a little bit.
I think that after Saint Cloud, you know, that that
got me to this level that I wasn't expecting to
be at. And I think when that happens, the door
(32:24):
to pop, not even just like you know, to being
a pop star, but to to taking more of a
pop approach.
Speaker 2 (32:35):
That door is open. It opens up.
Speaker 1 (32:37):
Just it happens, and it's tempting, I think to walk through,
and a lot of people do. But I think that
something I've really tried to maintain, especially as I just
sort of get older and wiser, is like a certain
self awareness about what it is people are responding to
(32:57):
about me, and I really think that, you know, if
I try to make a pop record, it would just
feel really inauthentic. I think people would be like, what,
that's not who you are, you know, and it's not
who I am.
Speaker 3 (33:09):
So how about with others? I'm thinking, you know, Aaron Desner,
you know he's got the national Yeah, but he's also
making Taylor Swift records. Yeah, And you can hear that
he's you can hear that he's involved in those records,
and he's sort of having his cake and eating it.
And I've that to me. I might be completely wrong
on this, but it seems to me like in recent
(33:29):
years that's becoming more and more sort of common and
more and more sort of like, I think fans are
more accepting of all of that stuff. Maybe twenty years ago,
your favorite band making like a big pop record or
with a pop star for them, the indie world would
be like, ah, this is terrible, Whereas now I think
we're sort of we're not there anymore, right. I think
(33:52):
people have sort of more sort of accepting the musicians
and musicians and they should all work together and they
can still make their indie records and they can still
make their pop records. You had any offers for that
or would you want to do that?
Speaker 2 (34:03):
You know, I think you're really right.
Speaker 1 (34:04):
I think that it's funny how how emmeshed it all
is now. Like I think that in the early aughts
it felt like pop stars were like obsessed with indie rock,
and we're like and now I think it's like everything
is kind of like similar in the same and I
think those lines being blurred actually does make the desire
to cross over even more tempting. But I haven't gotten
(34:27):
any offers like that, and I don't think it's something
I would super put myself out there for. But if
the right thing came along, if the right call came in,
I'd be all for it. I think, you know, being
sort of like in the limelight or like the center
of attention of my whole thing is a hard thing
(34:48):
for me. And if I could just like stay in
my sweats and write songs with people, that would be
like perfect.
Speaker 3 (34:53):
Always my ideal job, It's the dream. I interviewed a
songwriter's a hit called Egg White. That's not his real name,
but he calls himself Egg and he used to be
in like an eighties pop band called Brothers Beyond Here,
but he since leaving that in the eighties I think
early nineties, he's just been a songwriter for hire. He
(35:14):
writes a lot of Celine Dion songs nic and he
writes Will Young songs. He's a ballads guy. He writes
with a Dale as well. His job sounds like it's
the dream because he doesn't have to promote it. He
just makes the song and sits back and then the
song goes off into the world and does its own thing.
And after meeting him, he really sold me on, Like, oh,
I think that's actually the best job in the world.
(35:36):
He gets all the creativity, none of the headache, doesn't
have to be on social media posting about it, doesn't
have to go on talk shows and talk about it
or come on podcast. He's just making the great thing.
Speaker 2 (35:49):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (35:50):
I think it's a little bit more low pressure, I think,
which sounds appealing to me. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (35:57):
I say to Brad all the time that he has
such a fun job.
Speaker 1 (36:00):
A producer is also like seems really great because you're
you have to have like the technical understanding knowledge and
like the musicality and like the creativity, and you do
have to have like a certain skill set, but I
think another skill set that you have to have people
don't think about.
Speaker 2 (36:16):
This sounds really fun to me, is.
Speaker 1 (36:18):
Like you sort of have to be such a people
person in a little bit of a therapist like you
have to especially if it's a group of people, a
band or something like, you have to like go in
there and like understand the dynamic and understand how to
best make the workflow happen.
Speaker 2 (36:32):
And like that sounds like so fun.
Speaker 3 (36:34):
Have you ever met Rick Krubin? Has he ever been
in your world?
Speaker 4 (36:38):
Oh?
Speaker 2 (36:38):
I wish now he?
Speaker 3 (36:39):
I mean that deeply fascinates me that he like we're
currently sat in a recording shooto of a huge desk
in front of us, and he openly says, oh, I
would have not I have no idea what to do
with that. I don't know what any of the buttons do.
But he his whole thing is obviously is just harnessing
people's creative sort of spirit. Yeah, And in a way,
(37:03):
I'm like, how's he managed to how's he managed to
do this?
Speaker 2 (37:06):
Like, I know, become that one of the biggest producers
of all.
Speaker 3 (37:09):
Time and yeah, without without being able to quote unquote
produce like he is all that that that element of
it you were just talking about. He is purely that,
isn't he? And then he has an engineer to run
the tapes or whatever it is.
Speaker 1 (37:20):
You know, Yeah, yeah, I know. I think about that
all the time. I think that, you know, he must
just have a really powerful gift for bringing out whatever
needs to come out of people. I mean, that's what
people say. People make some of their best records with him,
you know. So I think that that job is it's
really hard, it's really specific, but it does sound really
(37:42):
fun to me. I love talking about working, you know.
I love like Brad and I. I would say a lot
of the time it's eighty percent us just talking and
then like a little bit of singing and recording and stuff.
And I think that that really helps us stay excited
and motivated about what we're making, is to just kind
of talk it all out, talk about what we're excited about,
(38:02):
you know, the whole thing.
Speaker 3 (38:04):
I did try to listen to Rick Ruben's book. He's
got a book. I couldn't get through it. Oh really,
I think it's better read. I think it looks better.
I think if you read it you'll absorb it. I
kept sort of falling asleep listening to it. He's reading
it himself, and it was a lot of sort of
quite vague. I mean, it was all it was. It
was very spiritual, yes, but it was it was like
(38:27):
a riddle. It was like.
Speaker 2 (38:28):
Listening to it, why does that make so much sense?
That makes sense? I know exactly what you mean.
Speaker 1 (38:34):
And I do think actually reading that would maybe it
would like seep into your mind a litte Yeah, I.
Speaker 3 (38:39):
Think you need to read it. Listening to it wasn't
wasn't the one. It was a bit too relaxing right
back to it. I've heard that you've described right back
to it as the first love song, first proper love song.
Is that true?
Speaker 1 (38:54):
You know it's not entirely true. I would say that.
Speaker 3 (38:57):
Because that surprised me. Yeah, But then I started to think, Okay,
what other wax hatchet tunes do I think are one
hundred percent nailed on love songs? And I couldn't actually
pinpoint one, so I thought, maybe it.
Speaker 2 (39:11):
Is true, you know, I think that can't do much?
Is the first love song?
Speaker 1 (39:16):
I have a couple that you could probably argue were
love songs on previous records. But I think because of
the like for me, when I look back on the
actual feelings that I was having, I'm like, that wasn't
what that was, you know, Like now I understand what
love means in a different way, and I feel like
(39:37):
it's it's it comes across in my song. A couple
of my newer songs as a proper love song, I
think can't do much and maybe the I on Saint
Cloud are kind of love songs, but right back to it,
it's like got the big love song chorus. It's just
you know what I mean, it feels like a love song.
(39:57):
And I think there's something about like a traditional love
song that's just too earnest for me, Like it would
make me cringe. I think, to like try and write
something like that, it's just not my personality. So I
had to kind of do it my own way. But
but yeah, I guess in a sense, it's like my
first proper love song.
Speaker 3 (40:15):
There's also a song on there about the music industry. Yeah, okay,
I've got three songs. I think it might be I've
read that you. I've read that you that there might
be a song on there about how you feel about
the music industry and your place in the music industry.
And then I listened back to and I thought, which
(40:36):
one's that? Shall I tell you the three I think
it might be, and you can tell me that I'm wrong.
I'm most I almost definitely am. I.
Speaker 2 (40:44):
Yeah, I would love that.
Speaker 3 (40:45):
Okay, is it my first one? I'm going to say,
is it the Wolves?
Speaker 1 (40:51):
Maybe the thing is that I don't want to confirm.
Speaker 3 (40:55):
Well, no, no, no, I can.
Speaker 1 (40:56):
Confirm it, but it's not it's not one okay, And
it's not entirely like black and white, like it's you know,
I exist in the music industry, so it's easy for
me to kind of, you know, bring up some frustrations
about that in a song because it's my job. And
so I really try and write the songs. I mean
(41:18):
I said this to you already. I really try and
write the song so that anybody could like apply that
to a situation in their life.
Speaker 2 (41:25):
So is the Wolves one of those songs?
Speaker 1 (41:29):
Kind of yes, it's it's sort of about the wolves,
is about like a specific relationship, but but it is
it kind of involves like the culture.
Speaker 3 (41:37):
Sure, yeah, okay, I'm gonna I'll tell you the others.
Please you can you can you can plead the fifth?
Speaker 2 (41:45):
Okay, Evil spol absolutely nailed it. Yeah you know that.
Speaker 1 (41:49):
Yeah?
Speaker 4 (41:49):
What was the third?
Speaker 3 (41:50):
And the third was burns Out at Midnight?
Speaker 1 (41:53):
No, that's that One's not that's more of like a
relationship song, like love song too.
Speaker 2 (41:58):
Yeah, okay, yeah.
Speaker 3 (41:59):
I love it Evil Spawn as well. There's a there's
a particular I can't pinpoint it now in my head,
but there's a melody in that. There's a there's a
phrase in the way you sing it that really has
a Bob Dylan sort of fleck to it. Oh. Thanks,
I can't remember what it is, but I love that song.
I got, I Got, And those are the two.
Speaker 1 (42:18):
Those are really the two that I would kind of
say ice Cold maybe a little bit as well. But yeah,
the dial anything I that was really like intentional from
my part, and anytime I would like try to bring
that up to Brad, he was like absolutely not, absolutely not.
He loves Dylan, but he just he's Brad, like you know,
when you are too hardcore about like one of the
old boys. Yes, yea, So so I was really going
(42:42):
for we met in the middle.
Speaker 3 (42:44):
I think I heard it. I think it's there. I
think it's there. We're pretty much out of time, but
is there What if I missed?
Speaker 2 (42:51):
Oh my gosh, we covered so much.
Speaker 1 (42:53):
I mean we we we covered like the important facts
and then we and you know, did some of the
not important facts as well.
Speaker 3 (42:59):
So okay, good, So we're good.
Speaker 2 (43:00):
Yeah, I think we're great.
Speaker 3 (43:01):
Awesome, have a joyful rest of your year.
Speaker 2 (43:04):
Oh, thank you, and and honestly you too, thank you,
thank you.
Speaker 3 (43:07):
I'm going to try it, okay.
Speaker 4 (43:13):
Midnight Chats is a joint production between Loud and Quiet
and Atomized Studios for iHeartRadio. It's hosted by Stuart Stubbs
and Greg Cochrane, mixed and mastered by Flow Lines, and
edited by Stuart Stubbs. Find us on Instagram and TikTok
to watch clips from our recordings and much much more.
We are Midnight Chats Pod.
Speaker 3 (43:32):
For more information, visit Loud and Quiet dot com.
I've been saying that the roadmap that I had for
my own career ended so long ago.
Speaker 2 (00:06):
Like I it's so long ago.
Speaker 1 (00:08):
I achieved everything I ever thought I would achieve. So
I'm in a complete no man's land. I'm in this
new territory.
Speaker 3 (00:17):
It's late folks.
Speaker 4 (00:19):
Welcome to Midnight Chats, the music interview podcast. My name
is Greg Cochrane.
Speaker 3 (00:24):
I'm Stuart Stubbs, and tonight's guest on the show is
Katie Crutchfield aka Waxahatchie, who I spoke to at the
end of January this year, twenty fifth of jan to
be exact, and you're here. The conversation starts with us
talking about when is it too late to be wishing
somebody a happy New Year. We decided it was a
(00:45):
fair game and it was still okay. Katie, who grew
up in Birmingham, Alabama, was on the show to talk
about her new album, her sixth album as Waxahatchie, called
Tiger's Blood.
Speaker 4 (00:57):
Tiger's Blood as in like Charley, she drinking tiger's blood exactly.
Speaker 3 (01:02):
So we get into this. We talk a bit about
Charlie Charlie Sheen, who I don't know if anyone remembers listening,
but about ten years ago he kept saying that he
was drinking Tiger's Blood and it was giving him special
winning powers. That was such a big deal at the time,
wasn't it. It's crazy, It's absolutely crazy. The reason we
wanted Wax actually on what I mean. I've met Katie
(01:25):
fire Zoom actually during the pandemic when she was promoting
Saint Cloud, which was her fifth record, Her record before
this one ended up being a huge hit, her biggest
selling album to date. The album was a little bit
of a departure from Katie's usual indie rock sound and
lean a lot more into her love for country music.
(01:46):
Put a little bit of pressure on Tiger's Blood. We
get into that a little bit. But there's a part
in this podcast where I tell Katie that I think
her melody is a bulletproof, which I'm saying that backs myself.
Is a very cringe thing to say, but I genuinely
mean it. And when you hear Tiger's Blood, go and
listen to that record, and I think all of those
(02:09):
songs could be like they could have been given to
Taylor Swift and they could be absolutely huge pop songs
in the hands of Taylor Swift, if that is what
Katie wanted to do with it rather than keep them
for herself. She's so, she is incredible, an incredible songwriter.
And I stand by my stupid line saying that she
has bulletproof melodies. Greg, I stand by that, fair fair,
(02:30):
I've heard this. And she's also just so cool.
Speaker 4 (02:34):
That sounds such a stupid thing to say, but she's yeah.
I just thought she's she's super cool.
Speaker 3 (02:41):
Yeah, she's great. A couple of things I just need
to clear up before we get started. We talk about
m J. Lenderman or Jake Clenderman. He is in a
band called Wednesday. That's who that is. He's got some
great records check him out. And Cerulean Salt. We mentioned
that is Katie's second Waxahatchie album, So I think that's so.
I think everything else is pretty much self explanatory. I
(03:03):
hope you enjoyed this episode of the podcast. Please do
follow us, Please do like, please do tell a friend
this is Waxahatchie. On tonight's episode of Midnight Chats, it's
probably too late for Happy New Year at this point
of the month.
Speaker 2 (03:23):
When is it? When do we say when? Do we
start saying happy.
Speaker 3 (03:26):
Well, we're on jan the twenty fifth, aren't we. Yeah,
I mean I'm up for it.
Speaker 2 (03:33):
I'm up for it too.
Speaker 1 (03:33):
I kind of think anytime in January is fair gay, yeah.
Speaker 3 (03:37):
Good good, Okay, Well, happy New Year?
Speaker 4 (03:39):
And to you?
Speaker 3 (03:40):
And are you a resolutions person? Do you ever do that?
Speaker 1 (03:44):
So sort of and it's really on brand for me
to be a resolution person, I think. But I've done
this thing the last couple of years where I pick
a word for the year. Okay, And so last year
my word was truth because I something I've struggled with
(04:07):
is being like completely honest with myself or like I
can be a little bit of a people pleaser and
so I'll sort of like lie to people to like
spread their feelings, you know. Ye.
Speaker 2 (04:18):
So I really took it seriously and all year.
Speaker 1 (04:21):
You know, I have a few like just sages in
my life that have you know, told me there's always
a polite way to tell the truth. So I really
implemented it, and I really think I grew as a person.
Speaker 3 (04:34):
So this is last years.
Speaker 1 (04:35):
That was last year, okay, So this year my word Okay,
So because I sometimes get a little I don't know,
like I struggle sometimes when I'm on a really when
I'm on a busy year, when it's like there's a
lot of attention on me or a lot of pressure
on me, that's just a harder. I like live a
(04:56):
pretty relaxed life. When I'm not fully on, it's a
little negative. Sometimes I can go negative in those moments.
So my word for the year is joy. Okay, I'm
going to really try and enjoy, you know something about
every experience that I have and just try and like
stay in the joy.
Speaker 3 (05:16):
Okay, great, Yes, how's it going? So for twenty five
days in on joy?
Speaker 2 (05:21):
Terrible? It's really unnatural to me.
Speaker 1 (05:25):
So I keep reminding myself, like Katie said, joy, like
just you know, I'm really I'm working on it.
Speaker 2 (05:31):
It's not going great.
Speaker 3 (05:32):
Sure, Okay, it's early in the year.
Speaker 2 (05:34):
We have time.
Speaker 3 (05:35):
You've got time for that. Yeah. What have some of
the other words been?
Speaker 1 (05:37):
This is a new thing, this is a new past
two years. But it went so well with truth that
I'm like, I think I'm going to keep this going.
Speaker 2 (05:43):
Okay, great, do you have resolutions?
Speaker 3 (05:45):
I do? You know? I went for as I started
getting them maybe ten years ago, and they were resolutions
but they were sort of things like the first one was,
I'm going to learn to drive this year.
Speaker 2 (05:56):
You don't know how to drive?
Speaker 3 (05:57):
No, I no, this was this was ten years ago.
I didn't know how to drive, and I was like, right,
I'm going to learn to drive. And I did it.
I tried to learn when I was younger. I was
terrible and I hated it, and then I thought, right,
this is ridiculous. I need to learn to drive. That
was my resolution. I did it, and I loved it
so much. The next year, I was like, I'm going
to learn French, and those they are not comparable things.
(06:21):
I realized very quickly, because you know, there's no end
to that. Ever, the follow I didn't learn my lesson.
Following year, I was going to learn the piano. Okay,
hadn't even learned French at that point, but I do
have one this year that's a bit more more in
line with yours, I think, which is I've just decided
I need to take better care of myself. I've not
(06:44):
got like it's not like I've got a gym plan
or I'm not quitting it. Something that I eat that's
bad for me. I'm just telling myself just relax not works.
Are hard? Sleep better?
Speaker 4 (06:58):
Yeah?
Speaker 3 (06:59):
So that that's it, and so far it's going quite well.
Oh good, I think. And I'm also trying to let
go of control.
Speaker 2 (07:07):
Oh that's hard.
Speaker 3 (07:09):
Yeah, that's as hard as learning French.
Speaker 2 (07:11):
It's maybe harder.
Speaker 1 (07:13):
Yeah, that's really good.
Speaker 2 (07:15):
You know. I heard somebody.
Speaker 1 (07:18):
In my life once said to you just have to
get back to baseline, and then when you get to baseline,
you just try your best to maintain it. And if
you get away from baseline, then just try and check
in with yourself.
Speaker 2 (07:30):
How do I get back to baseline?
Speaker 1 (07:31):
You know? I think sleep is something that people don't
really think about enough when they think about I need
to take care of myself, like self care. Sleeping is
like too outside of the conversation, it's really I it's
so important.
Speaker 3 (07:46):
Yeah, and I'm a terrible sleep are you?
Speaker 2 (07:48):
That's too bad.
Speaker 3 (07:49):
I've given up caffeine and that's helped. Oh, that's helped.
Speaker 2 (07:53):
That sounds very hard. That would be very hard for me.
Speaker 3 (07:55):
Yeah, but I'm glad joy's going well for you.
Speaker 2 (07:58):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (07:58):
Well, you know, it could go better, but we'll get there.
Speaker 2 (08:01):
I have faith.
Speaker 1 (08:02):
The truth took me a little while, and in fact,
It wasn't until like maybe last summer that I noticed, oh,
this is actually happening. I'm actually doing this, I'm actually
telling the truth, and I'm I'm it's caused like not
any sort of upheaval, but it's led me. It's really
led me to some very brave, scary things that are
(08:26):
changing my life for the better.
Speaker 2 (08:27):
So you know, we'll see great.
Speaker 3 (08:30):
So I mean, I love January because I feel but
I think we're in the minority here because when I
say this to people, they say, really especially here, like
you know, it's very trap in London. Sure, But I
think it's because think we're on the same page on this,
because when a new year starts, I'm very positive. I
(08:50):
don't get I'm not down on a new year until
maybe March. I've got two months grace of thinking every
thing is going to be great this year. Yeah, and
then you know, by March I'm thinking, Okay, maybe this
year is dead one. We'll go for the next one
sort of thing. Looking at the year ahead of you, obviously,
is it all about new album for you? Is that
(09:11):
sort of the I guess that's where you're at, right,
it's an album year. Does your year build around that.
Speaker 2 (09:17):
Yes, it does.
Speaker 1 (09:19):
It's funny as you get a little older, Like when
I was younger and I had a new it was
a new album year, it was one hundred percent all
about that, and that was like my whole existence. And
so I'm trying to approach it with a little bit
more nuance and kind of have have there be some
depth to it all, Like I want to try and
make sure that I'm keeping a lot of space for
(09:40):
my personal life and for just you know, my downtime
and like cooking and doing small things and keeping things
really small when I can, and and I think that
actually that goes really well with joy and it'll help
me enjoy when I do have. Like, I think it's
really easy to feel like you've been launched out of
(10:02):
a cannon on a new album year, especially right after
the records announced, which has only been a few weeks.
But I think you know more or less the entire
years pretty much about the new.
Speaker 2 (10:16):
Album or tour.
Speaker 1 (10:17):
It's a lot of tour, so there's going to be
a lot of traveling, so it's.
Speaker 3 (10:20):
Just sick thre record. Yes, at this point, have you
allowed yourself to sort of accept this is my career
and my life forever now or as a musician, are
you always on that sort of precipice? I think, and
this could all end tomorrow, like innately, it's really interesting.
Speaker 1 (10:38):
I mean, you know, on one hand, I I've been
doing it for a really long time, even longer than
six albums. Like I started writing songs when I was fourteen.
I'm thirty five now, so it's been like twenty one
years of my life that I've been doing this one
thing more or less the same way.
Speaker 2 (10:59):
So and I came up in this in like such
a diy.
Speaker 1 (11:05):
Scene, like I played the smallest shows for the least
amount of money one can do that for and and
for like a kind of a long time.
Speaker 2 (11:15):
And what's beautiful about that.
Speaker 1 (11:16):
Is I I do feel like kind of no matter
what happens, I'm never gonna not, you know, do what
I do. I think I'll always write songs, I'll always
make records, even if you know, people stop caring about them.
So it does give you this a little bit of
like a fearlessness. Like I've been saying that the roadmap
(11:36):
that I had for my own career ended so long ago,
Like I it's so long ago. I achieved everything I
ever thought I would achieve. So I'm in like complete
no man's land. I'm in this like new territory.
Speaker 3 (11:49):
Where did that? Where did that map take you up to?
Where would that be? Was it as simple as American Weekend?
If I can get for overleased?
Speaker 1 (11:56):
No? I think, you know, really really Salt that was
one like my second album where we were speaking about earlier,
like I came to London for the first time, I
came to Europe for the first time, I got to
quit my day job and stuff. That was like about
ten years ago, so that, I think was was one
road map. And then once my career formed, I would say,
(12:17):
really Saint Cloud, like the breakthrough I had with that
album and like the level that I achieved, the amount
of tickets I was selling, the amount of records I
was selling. I was like, this is great, this is
all I ever thought this would that whatever happened. So
I'm certainly in this kind of weird moment with this
next record because I don't really know what's gonna happen,
but I do. I feel really grateful that I've seen
(12:39):
it all. I've been doing it so long, you know,
there's like that great there's like this great lore about
Tammy Wynette, how she kept renewing her like cosmetology license
every year even when she was like this huge star,
because just in case, just in case, she's got a
backup plan, you know. So I think every musician probably
feels that way. Really, it's important not to take it
(13:01):
for granted.
Speaker 3 (13:02):
But I was going to ask you about the success
of Saint Cloud, and actually you've sort of answered what
I was going to ask. Really is because I know
that that album was your biggest success and it's sort
of found you in new audience. This, we should say,
is your most recent album other than this new one,
Tiger's Blood, which was released in twenty twenty. From a
(13:23):
fans point of view, that in the moment, I sort
of thought, oh yeah, but that it's all been of
this level. But you felt in real terms that was
a step up, right in terms of ticket sales, as.
Speaker 1 (13:37):
You say, yeah, I think honestly, on both sides of
the coin. I think, as like a creative endeavor, it
felt like a really big step up.
Speaker 2 (13:44):
To me. I felt like, you know, I think all.
Speaker 1 (13:49):
Of my songwriting, like I can go through all my
albums and pick out like these great moments that I'm
still super proud of, but I think just as a
cohesive piece of work. Cloud to me was you know,
from the from the moment we you know, started recording it,
I was like, I think I'm making my best album
so far right now.
Speaker 2 (14:08):
Which is really exciting.
Speaker 1 (14:10):
And then it was really cool that the reaction also
felt like, oh, I think this is reaching.
Speaker 2 (14:16):
More people than I ever have, you know.
Speaker 1 (14:19):
When we made the record, It's funny, there was like
this really relaxed sense of I know, I'm taking like
a hard pivot, like this is a different sound, and.
Speaker 2 (14:30):
It feels so correct that I just have to keep
going down this path.
Speaker 1 (14:36):
And there's like a fearlessness to that of like if
people enjoy this, how amazing. If they don't, well, I
feel like I'm aligned so that I just have to
kind of go down my path, you know. And what
a cool blessing that when I put it out it
also felt like it reached more people and there was
(14:58):
sort of this like depth of connection to the listening
that I had through making that record that was pretty amazing.
Speaker 3 (15:04):
When it felt even more sort of special or even
more impressive even that it was such a success during
it was released literally as the pandemic was starting, wasn't it.
It was very early on in twenty twenty. To have
such a hit at that time is very unique because
I know, like a lot of artists especially sort of
(15:24):
struggled around that time because you couldn't tour it, you
couldn't promote it. I there were lots of records that
came out around that time that maybe didn't get sort
of the attention. So it's incredible that people connected with it,
or maybe they connected with it due to the pandemic
and they were listening to it on there. I don't
know what the rules were in the States, but here
you could go for a twenty minute walk once a day,
and that's where people were discovering certain things. So maybe
(15:47):
it helped.
Speaker 1 (15:48):
You know, that taught me a really interesting lesson actually,
because you know, I think not in black and white terms,
but before that, I think I had this vague sense of,
like songs that I write they.
Speaker 2 (16:03):
Need to be really, you know, one hundred.
Speaker 1 (16:06):
Percent committed to describing my experience in like no uncertain terms,
and I felt like was Sant Cloud. And certainly I've
written songs like this in the past, but I think
with Sant cloud. I did shift toward you know, that
record is really about me getting sober and this sort
of like internal battle that I was sort of having
with myself, and I did try and write it in
(16:29):
a way that didn't feel like it was obviously about that.
I wanted it to feel nuanced and kind of poetic.
Speaker 2 (16:36):
And I think.
Speaker 1 (16:37):
People really were able to like apply their anxieties and
their sadnesses and whatever about the pandemic and how it
hit them individually to that record and vice versa, and
I really took that lesson into the new record. I
really I feel like I was really conscientious of the
listener as I was writing the songs, Like a lot
(16:58):
of the experiences are that I'm writing about are very specific,
and I'm trying my best to make them to honor
them while keeping them kind of vague so that people
can can like let it land on them however it
needs to land on them.
Speaker 2 (17:11):
Sure, So it was kind of a cool thing.
Speaker 3 (17:14):
Yeah, Yeah, definitely, it definitely does that. I've been listening
to Tiger's Blood a lot, and I've got the lyric sheet.
We're going to talk about this in a bit because
I've got some questions before we do that though, with
the success of Saint Cloud, did has it afforded you?
What has the success of that afforded you? Have you
had like loads of offers to do adverts or has
(17:39):
it just got you bigger gigs or bigger festival Like
what in real terms? What does having a success like
that due to an artist like yourself?
Speaker 1 (17:49):
That's so funny, I'm flattered. Do you think I could
do an aver?
Speaker 3 (17:54):
You wait for what's coming up?
Speaker 1 (17:55):
Okay, I'm scared, so I you know, it's it's all
the things that you that things that have been lifelong.
Speaker 2 (18:03):
Goals of mine.
Speaker 1 (18:03):
You know, like I own a house now, I you know,
you know, I've gotten to do bigger gigs. I've gotten
to like do big support tours. I mean I got
to open for Cheryl Crow last year. You know, like
things like that, just all the things that you sort
of dream about, and you know, it's it's it's afforded me,
like the ability to sort of take a lot of
time off to really focus on making this record, which
(18:26):
I think is great in the past. You know, it's
like I've I've had to kind of work on records
while I'm also really kind of still in the last record,
like still touring, and I felt like I had a nice,
little quiet period of time to.
Speaker 2 (18:43):
Really focus on on this record, which really lovely.
Speaker 3 (18:46):
What was Sheryl crow like?
Speaker 2 (18:48):
So great?
Speaker 1 (18:49):
We didn't speak very much, which is completely understandable, and
if I were her, I would have done the exact
same thing. She's very busy and she's got an air
of that just sort of like so much grace, so
much poise, you know, friendly to everyone and rarely seen,
which is just that's the way to be.
Speaker 3 (19:09):
So Tiger's Blood is the new record. I hate asking
about names of things, but I just love the name
Tiger's Blood. I think it's going to look great on
your merch.
Speaker 2 (19:18):
Thank you so much. I love that you're thinking about that.
Yeah that's great.
Speaker 3 (19:22):
Yeah yeah, I'm like your new sort of merch marketing guy.
It looks you know, it looks great, Like where does
that come from? Obviously? The final track on the album
is called Tiger's Blood? Is it? Was it? Simply You're like,
that's that's the title because it looks good on merch.
Speaker 2 (19:35):
Yeah, well, in a way, it's funny.
Speaker 1 (19:38):
So I was just in Europe and I realized that
I was explaining what this meant, and that they a
lot of them maybe didn't one hundred percent understand what
I meant, and so I had to break it down
even more granularly.
Speaker 2 (19:54):
So I'm going to just break it down super granularly.
Speaker 3 (19:56):
Okay, do it?
Speaker 4 (19:57):
Okay?
Speaker 2 (19:59):
Do you know what a snow cone is?
Speaker 3 (20:00):
Yes?
Speaker 2 (20:01):
Okay, So they didn't, Okay.
Speaker 1 (20:02):
So I was talking about snow cones and I could
tell they were looking at me, so like, what.
Speaker 3 (20:06):
The fuck is that?
Speaker 2 (20:07):
Okay?
Speaker 3 (20:09):
Do you think we should clarify a snow I'll tell
you why. A snow cone. It's a paper cup cone,
and it's we call them slushies here, okay, And so
anyone listening in the UK, it's a slushy. It's like,
it's not ice cream, it's crushed ice with that's flavored
like syrup breath flavored, syrupl whatever on top.
Speaker 2 (20:31):
That's exactly that's a perfect definition.
Speaker 3 (20:32):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (20:33):
So in America there's a snow cone flavor, and I'm
sure it exists elsewhere too. It's like a little bit
of a deep cut. It's not exactly like like because
not everyone knows what it is. But there's a flavor
called tiger's Blood and it's strawberry and coconut mixed together.
Speaker 2 (20:48):
It's delicious, okay.
Speaker 1 (20:50):
And when I was a kid, it was like one
of my favorites. So when I was writing that song,
that moment of the song where I'm talking about tiger's blood,
I was sort of just trying to like weave in
a lot of sort of childhood memories, like just this
innocence and summertime and just sort of describing this like
certain feelings.
Speaker 2 (21:10):
So that like sort of fell out of my brain.
Speaker 1 (21:13):
And when it did, I was like, well, that's obviously
got to be the title of the song, right, And
then when I was trying to figure out the album title,
it just kept like screaming at me like I think
that this is a cool title, and I knew I
knew when I named it this, and like everyone's gonna
want me to explain this, so, which is totally fine.
But you know, with sant cloud I, it was a
(21:35):
really similar thing. It was just like a random lyric
that just came out of my head, and the way
those two words sounded together just fit for some reason,
like some very inexplicable It's the same thing.
Speaker 2 (21:51):
I think so too.
Speaker 1 (21:51):
I really like that's how I like to come up
with album titles. I like them to sort of show
themselves to me. But then for whatever reason, it's not.
It's not very there's nothing super calculated or intentional about it.
Speaker 2 (22:04):
It just feels right, and I just roll with it.
Speaker 3 (22:06):
Yeah, that's the best way to do it. When I
saw Tiger's Blood written down, the first thing that my
mind went to, and I'm sure it's only me, was
Charlie Sheen. Do you remember when he was talking about
Tiger's blood.
Speaker 2 (22:19):
And everything about that. I probably need to know that, so.
Speaker 3 (22:25):
And I looked up when this was. It was actually
ten years ago. He got sacked from the show he
was on. I think it was maybe a Comedy Central
show two.
Speaker 2 (22:33):
And a half men, Yes, yes, yes, of course, And.
Speaker 3 (22:36):
He had this huge public sort of feud with the producer.
And within these rants he kept doing, i want to say,
over a month or so, very public sort of rants.
He started saying that he's been drinking Tiger's blood and
it's giving him special powers, and he kept saying winning.
Speaker 2 (22:55):
I remember I remember winning, So within.
Speaker 3 (22:58):
That if you go back to that, if you just
just googled Charlie Sheen Tiger's Blood that's what will come
up him ranting about winning, about winning, Yeah, because he
drinks tiger's blood.
Speaker 1 (23:09):
Okay, so here's a little fact. Actually, so we're putting
we're actually solving a mystery right now. When I decided
to name my album Tiger's Blood, I did want to
just do a quick search and be like, does this
like you know, has someone else used this or whatever?
And the one thing that came up, just more than
anything else was some sort of protein powder called Tiger's Blood.
(23:30):
And so that's a little bit of a chicken and
egg situation. Was Charlie Sheen using the protein powder or
did the protein powder hear Charlie Sheen say that and
name their product after that?
Speaker 2 (23:43):
Who's to say.
Speaker 3 (23:44):
If anyone listening can solve this. I mean, now that
you say that, he must have meant he must have
meant that, right, I made. But it got picked up
by the media as he's drinking Tiger's blud even saying
that out loud. I'm thinking, did it get picked up
by the media that way? Off? I just interpreted that way?
Speaker 2 (24:05):
I mean, I'm not sure I think that.
Speaker 1 (24:07):
I mean, that's great marketing, you know, like he's winning,
he's winning.
Speaker 2 (24:10):
We're gonna that's so if you want to win too,
you got.
Speaker 3 (24:13):
To get your album. Yeah, get his face on the
T shirts you're marketing.
Speaker 2 (24:19):
Idea, I'm going to write somethings down. These are great.
Speaker 3 (24:21):
Yeah, okay, so great. I mean, so I'm glad I
asked that question. And it wasn't just a simple I
just liked the name.
Speaker 2 (24:30):
Imagine, I'm like a huge Charlie.
Speaker 3 (24:32):
She he guests on the album. So when you went
into making this record, you'd had this huge success, Saint
Cloud had been massive. Did you know what you wanted
to do with this one? Did you know, la, Okay,
I want to do something different to Saint Cloud, or
did you did you just go in and think, okay,
let's just see what happens when we're in there.
Speaker 1 (24:50):
It's a little bit of a story, and it was.
It was a journey, okay. So I knew I was
going to make my record after Saint Cloud with the
same producer, Brad Cook, who's really just come like my
right hand and my sort of like main you know,
musical the main musical collaborator of my life, I think
is Brad. And you know, I think that we we
(25:13):
really gass each other up. I think we keep each
other like in check, but we keep each other confident
about what we're doing.
Speaker 2 (25:19):
And we were like talking a really big game.
Speaker 1 (25:22):
We were like, this is gonna be epic, Like whatever
we do next, it's gonna be amazing. Like we were
just gassing each other up so hard, and then when
it came down to it, it was like neither of us,
I think, really knew what we were gonna do, and
and we were both I think feeling a different type
of pressure, but a certain amount of pressure to follow
(25:44):
up sant Claude. I think we both were just like,
we don't want people to think this is a fluke.
Do we think this is a fluke?
Speaker 3 (25:50):
Did you start talking about this?
Speaker 1 (25:51):
Oh?
Speaker 3 (25:51):
Yeah, we really so you were always on the same
page with.
Speaker 1 (25:54):
It, Yeah, well at first we weren't. At first, we
were just gassing each other up. And then I think
we broke it down and we got beneath the surface
and we were both like, actually, we're kind of scared.
Actually we're both kind of scared. So, you know, I
didn't have a clearcut idea like with Sant Cloud. I
knew I wanted to make the record with Bonnie Dune
from Detroit. You know, their sound was so influential on
(26:18):
that album and and was so exciting to me that
it was really easy for me to just be like, oh,
this is gonna be great. We'll just get those guys
in the studio and we'll all just do our thing
and it'll all work out.
Speaker 2 (26:28):
And it did.
Speaker 1 (26:29):
It was very like organic and easy. So we didn't
have that right away with Tiger's Blood. We didn't have
like the obvious an obvious plan about how we were going.
Speaker 2 (26:38):
To make the record.
Speaker 1 (26:39):
So the first demo session, you know, I had maybe
like a month before we Brad and I met up
in Durham to demo, I had maybe like seven or
eight songs like the record was, you know, mostly written,
but still there was no it was no clear cut
idea how that how we were going to like make
(27:00):
them into real songs. So I had mentioned a Brad
like offhand, you know, I would love to bring in
m J. Linderman, Jake Linderman, who I didn't know well
at the time, but Brad knew, and you know, Brad
was like, yeah, that's a cool idea, let's do it,
and so kind of unbeknownst to me, Brad invited him
to the first thing we did, the first demo session,
(27:22):
which is kind of funny, Like I my vision for
that was like, I don't know him too well, let's
bring him in like once we have a plan, yeah,
and we know what we're doing, but nope, Like the
first day it's me, Brad and Jake, and you know,
immediately I was like, put it complete ease.
Speaker 2 (27:38):
He's super sweet. He's like ten years younger than me.
Speaker 1 (27:41):
Like he's like he's just like a wide eyed, like
young man. And you know, at that time was like
relatively inexperienced and that kind of thing. And I mean,
he just like won us over immediately. He we jammed
for a while, like he plays drums, he plays everything
kind of, but he was he was playing drums and
Brad was playing bass, I was playing guitar, and we
(28:02):
just jammed like that for a long time. We tracked everything,
and then the second day we put Jake on guitar
and we brought in a drummer, Matt Macon, who lives
down the street from Brad, and we tracked right back
to it like that, And that was the first thing
we tracked for. Brad and I were like Oh that
that's exciting. That sounds like a song. That sounds like
(28:23):
a song that sounds like something we should chase after.
It's really similar to the finished song. And just right
before it was time for him to go home, we
were like, hey, will you sing a harmony over that?
And he went into the booth.
Speaker 2 (28:36):
It's funny.
Speaker 1 (28:37):
I was like, like in like sort of a stage
mom sort of way, like coaching him through the harmony,
like just assuming like, oh, he needs help, and which
is so funny now. But he he was like really
polite and was like, yeah, that sounds great, and then
he went into the booth he sang something completely different
and then it was so much better.
Speaker 2 (28:59):
It was so good.
Speaker 1 (29:00):
And then there's like this one part where he sings
you just settling in that line. When he did that,
Brad and I were like, oh, like we both like screamed.
We're just like that is so good that that note,
the way it rubs against my note, it's making me
feel things, you know. We just really freaked out and
and I really think that was the moment that we
(29:23):
were like we know exactly what to do now.
Speaker 3 (29:26):
How confident. I mean, he's such a talent, that guy.
Speaker 2 (29:29):
Oh yeah.
Speaker 3 (29:30):
But I mean, what a confident young man. You know,
like it goes and it's so nice that you know,
he said, yeah, yeah, okay, I'll take on that feedback
goes in to just to not just do what you've
sort of I guess asked him to do. It's bold,
isn't it. But when you're that good, you know, you
just back yourself and you know, okay, I think I've
(29:50):
got something here. It's a gift, isn't it. Not just
not just the gift of doing it, but the gift
of backing yourself.
Speaker 1 (29:57):
You know.
Speaker 2 (29:57):
It's so true. It's funny. He's so interesting.
Speaker 1 (30:00):
He's the way I described Jake a lot of the
time is he's just he has this like unbelievable amount
of talent, Like he is so unpretentious, Like he was
visibly nervous, but he went in there and did it
was like so much better than what I even could comprehend,
you know, And I think it just it all comes
(30:20):
down to he is just that talented.
Speaker 3 (30:23):
I hates him. I hate young talented people.
Speaker 2 (30:27):
Yeah, it's so funny.
Speaker 1 (30:28):
It really honestly like working with him, I mean I
could talk about it all day.
Speaker 2 (30:32):
It really like uh, you know, he comes from this scene.
Speaker 1 (30:35):
He's like he's in Wednesday and there's a bunch of
bands like around those guys, and they're all really cool,
and it really reminds me of myself when I was
their age, Like I was kind of like the same
and in the same like group of like cool misfits,
you know, and we like made records together and we're
all best friends and we all live together, and it
just it realigned me with like this part of myself
(30:56):
that I hadn't been connected with in a long time.
Speaker 3 (30:59):
Yeah, why you saw in him, Like that's probably why
you were like being a mum coach too, because you
saw a bit of yourself in here.
Speaker 2 (31:06):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (31:06):
I was like, come on, you got this, and he
was just kind of like so nice about it and
then went in there and just did his own thing,
and it was I'm so happy he did. And I
never coached someone harmonies again. I just anytime I was like,
I just want to see what you're going to do.
Speaker 3 (31:21):
The thing I think about your songs and this goes
all the way back to American Weekend. The songs are
so expertly written and the melodies are like bulletproof melodies
with that sort of in mind, and the success of
the last record is that has there been any part
of you it's thought, let's make a run for like
(31:42):
pop stardom because you inhabit such sort of like a
sort of alternative world. But you know, all of those
melodies could be like smash hits. I think you and
did you ever have that? Have you had that thought
or like at any point or especially off the same cloud?
Speaker 1 (32:02):
I guess, thank you so much. I mean that's really flattering.
I you know, I don't think it's hard to it's
hard to like describe this. I've said this a little bit.
I think that after Saint Cloud, you know, that that
got me to this level that I wasn't expecting to
be at. And I think when that happens, the door
(32:24):
to pop, not even just like you know, to being
a pop star, but to to taking more of a
pop approach.
Speaker 2 (32:35):
That door is open. It opens up.
Speaker 1 (32:37):
Just it happens, and it's tempting, I think to walk through,
and a lot of people do. But I think that
something I've really tried to maintain, especially as I just
sort of get older and wiser, is like a certain
self awareness about what it is people are responding to
(32:57):
about me, and I really think that, you know, if
I try to make a pop record, it would just
feel really inauthentic. I think people would be like, what,
that's not who you are, you know, and it's not
who I am.
Speaker 3 (33:09):
So how about with others? I'm thinking, you know, Aaron Desner,
you know he's got the national Yeah, but he's also
making Taylor Swift records. Yeah, And you can hear that
he's you can hear that he's involved in those records,
and he's sort of having his cake and eating it.
And I've that to me. I might be completely wrong
on this, but it seems to me like in recent
(33:29):
years that's becoming more and more sort of common and
more and more sort of like, I think fans are
more accepting of all of that stuff. Maybe twenty years ago,
your favorite band making like a big pop record or
with a pop star for them, the indie world would
be like, ah, this is terrible, Whereas now I think
we're sort of we're not there anymore, right. I think
(33:52):
people have sort of more sort of accepting the musicians
and musicians and they should all work together and they
can still make their indie records and they can still
make their pop records. You had any offers for that
or would you want to do that?
Speaker 2 (34:03):
You know, I think you're really right.
Speaker 1 (34:04):
I think that it's funny how how emmeshed it all
is now. Like I think that in the early aughts
it felt like pop stars were like obsessed with indie rock,
and we're like and now I think it's like everything
is kind of like similar in the same and I
think those lines being blurred actually does make the desire
to cross over even more tempting. But I haven't gotten
(34:27):
any offers like that, and I don't think it's something
I would super put myself out there for. But if
the right thing came along, if the right call came in,
I'd be all for it. I think, you know, being
sort of like in the limelight or like the center
of attention of my whole thing is a hard thing
(34:48):
for me. And if I could just like stay in
my sweats and write songs with people, that would be
like perfect.
Speaker 3 (34:53):
Always my ideal job, It's the dream. I interviewed a
songwriter's a hit called Egg White. That's not his real name,
but he calls himself Egg and he used to be
in like an eighties pop band called Brothers Beyond Here,
but he since leaving that in the eighties I think
early nineties, he's just been a songwriter for hire. He
(35:14):
writes a lot of Celine Dion songs nic and he
writes Will Young songs. He's a ballads guy. He writes
with a Dale as well. His job sounds like it's
the dream because he doesn't have to promote it. He
just makes the song and sits back and then the
song goes off into the world and does its own thing.
And after meeting him, he really sold me on, Like, oh,
I think that's actually the best job in the world.
(35:36):
He gets all the creativity, none of the headache, doesn't
have to be on social media posting about it, doesn't
have to go on talk shows and talk about it
or come on podcast. He's just making the great thing.
Speaker 2 (35:49):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (35:50):
I think it's a little bit more low pressure, I think,
which sounds appealing to me. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (35:57):
I say to Brad all the time that he has
such a fun job.
Speaker 1 (36:00):
A producer is also like seems really great because you're
you have to have like the technical understanding knowledge and
like the musicality and like the creativity, and you do
have to have like a certain skill set, but I
think another skill set that you have to have people
don't think about.
Speaker 2 (36:16):
This sounds really fun to me, is.
Speaker 1 (36:18):
Like you sort of have to be such a people
person in a little bit of a therapist like you
have to especially if it's a group of people, a
band or something like, you have to like go in
there and like understand the dynamic and understand how to
best make the workflow happen.
Speaker 2 (36:32):
And like that sounds like so fun.
Speaker 3 (36:34):
Have you ever met Rick Krubin? Has he ever been
in your world?
Speaker 4 (36:38):
Oh?
Speaker 2 (36:38):
I wish now he?
Speaker 3 (36:39):
I mean that deeply fascinates me that he like we're
currently sat in a recording shooto of a huge desk
in front of us, and he openly says, oh, I
would have not I have no idea what to do
with that. I don't know what any of the buttons do.
But he his whole thing is obviously is just harnessing
people's creative sort of spirit. Yeah, And in a way,
(37:03):
I'm like, how's he managed to how's he managed to
do this?
Speaker 2 (37:06):
Like, I know, become that one of the biggest producers
of all.
Speaker 3 (37:09):
Time and yeah, without without being able to quote unquote
produce like he is all that that that element of
it you were just talking about. He is purely that,
isn't he? And then he has an engineer to run
the tapes or whatever it is.
Speaker 1 (37:20):
You know, Yeah, yeah, I know. I think about that
all the time. I think that, you know, he must
just have a really powerful gift for bringing out whatever
needs to come out of people. I mean, that's what
people say. People make some of their best records with him,
you know. So I think that that job is it's
really hard, it's really specific, but it does sound really
(37:42):
fun to me. I love talking about working, you know.
I love like Brad and I. I would say a lot
of the time it's eighty percent us just talking and
then like a little bit of singing and recording and stuff.
And I think that that really helps us stay excited
and motivated about what we're making, is to just kind
of talk it all out, talk about what we're excited about,
(38:02):
you know, the whole thing.
Speaker 3 (38:04):
I did try to listen to Rick Ruben's book. He's
got a book. I couldn't get through it. Oh really,
I think it's better read. I think it looks better.
I think if you read it you'll absorb it. I
kept sort of falling asleep listening to it. He's reading
it himself, and it was a lot of sort of
quite vague. I mean, it was all it was. It
was very spiritual, yes, but it was it was like
(38:27):
a riddle. It was like.
Speaker 2 (38:28):
Listening to it, why does that make so much sense?
That makes sense? I know exactly what you mean.
Speaker 1 (38:34):
And I do think actually reading that would maybe it
would like seep into your mind a litte Yeah, I.
Speaker 3 (38:39):
Think you need to read it. Listening to it wasn't
wasn't the one. It was a bit too relaxing right
back to it. I've heard that you've described right back
to it as the first love song, first proper love song.
Is that true?
Speaker 1 (38:54):
You know it's not entirely true. I would say that.
Speaker 3 (38:57):
Because that surprised me. Yeah, But then I started to think, Okay,
what other wax hatchet tunes do I think are one
hundred percent nailed on love songs? And I couldn't actually
pinpoint one, so I thought, maybe it.
Speaker 2 (39:11):
Is true, you know, I think that can't do much?
Is the first love song?
Speaker 1 (39:16):
I have a couple that you could probably argue were
love songs on previous records. But I think because of
the like for me, when I look back on the
actual feelings that I was having, I'm like, that wasn't
what that was, you know, Like now I understand what
love means in a different way, and I feel like
(39:37):
it's it's it comes across in my song. A couple
of my newer songs as a proper love song, I
think can't do much and maybe the I on Saint
Cloud are kind of love songs, but right back to it,
it's like got the big love song chorus. It's just
you know what I mean, it feels like a love song.
(39:57):
And I think there's something about like a traditional love
song that's just too earnest for me, Like it would
make me cringe. I think, to like try and write
something like that, it's just not my personality. So I
had to kind of do it my own way. But
but yeah, I guess in a sense, it's like my
first proper love song.
Speaker 3 (40:15):
There's also a song on there about the music industry. Yeah, okay,
I've got three songs. I think it might be I've
read that you. I've read that you that there might
be a song on there about how you feel about
the music industry and your place in the music industry.
And then I listened back to and I thought, which
(40:36):
one's that? Shall I tell you the three I think
it might be, and you can tell me that I'm wrong.
I'm most I almost definitely am. I.
Speaker 2 (40:44):
Yeah, I would love that.
Speaker 3 (40:45):
Okay, is it my first one? I'm going to say,
is it the Wolves?
Speaker 1 (40:51):
Maybe the thing is that I don't want to confirm.
Speaker 3 (40:55):
Well, no, no, no, I can.
Speaker 1 (40:56):
Confirm it, but it's not it's not one okay, And
it's not entirely like black and white, like it's you know,
I exist in the music industry, so it's easy for
me to kind of, you know, bring up some frustrations
about that in a song because it's my job. And
so I really try and write the songs. I mean
(41:18):
I said this to you already. I really try and
write the song so that anybody could like apply that
to a situation in their life.
Speaker 2 (41:25):
So is the Wolves one of those songs?
Speaker 1 (41:29):
Kind of yes, it's it's sort of about the wolves,
is about like a specific relationship, but but it is
it kind of involves like the culture.
Speaker 3 (41:37):
Sure, yeah, okay, I'm gonna I'll tell you the others.
Please you can you can you can plead the fifth?
Speaker 2 (41:45):
Okay, Evil spol absolutely nailed it. Yeah you know that.
Speaker 1 (41:49):
Yeah?
Speaker 4 (41:49):
What was the third?
Speaker 3 (41:50):
And the third was burns Out at Midnight?
Speaker 1 (41:53):
No, that's that One's not that's more of like a
relationship song, like love song too.
Speaker 2 (41:58):
Yeah, okay, yeah.
Speaker 3 (41:59):
I love it Evil Spawn as well. There's a there's
a particular I can't pinpoint it now in my head,
but there's a melody in that. There's a there's a
phrase in the way you sing it that really has
a Bob Dylan sort of fleck to it. Oh. Thanks,
I can't remember what it is, but I love that song.
I got, I Got, And those are the two.
Speaker 1 (42:18):
Those are really the two that I would kind of
say ice Cold maybe a little bit as well. But yeah,
the dial anything I that was really like intentional from
my part, and anytime I would like try to bring
that up to Brad, he was like absolutely not, absolutely not.
He loves Dylan, but he just he's Brad, like you know,
when you are too hardcore about like one of the
old boys. Yes, yea, So so I was really going
(42:42):
for we met in the middle.
Speaker 3 (42:44):
I think I heard it. I think it's there. I
think it's there. We're pretty much out of time, but
is there What if I missed?
Speaker 2 (42:51):
Oh my gosh, we covered so much.
Speaker 1 (42:53):
I mean we we we covered like the important facts
and then we and you know, did some of the
not important facts as well.
Speaker 3 (42:59):
So okay, good, So we're good.
Speaker 2 (43:00):
Yeah, I think we're great.
Speaker 3 (43:01):
Awesome, have a joyful rest of your year.
Speaker 2 (43:04):
Oh, thank you, and and honestly you too, thank you,
thank you.
Speaker 3 (43:07):
I'm going to try it, okay.
Speaker 4 (43:13):
Midnight Chats is a joint production between Loud and Quiet
and Atomized Studios for iHeartRadio. It's hosted by Stuart Stubbs
and Greg Cochrane, mixed and mastered by Flow Lines, and
edited by Stuart Stubbs. Find us on Instagram and TikTok
to watch clips from our recordings and much much more.
We are Midnight Chats Pod.
Speaker 3 (43:32):
For more information, visit Loud and Quiet dot com.
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